Guardian is a design flaw. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Wli

10-26-2005, 11:02 PM

By now, for me, this is a fact. The guardian class is a broken design within the class tree of EQ2. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I read that(I did not participate in beta) guardians were the only class that could use vanguard plate armor. Other fighters(mitigation) used havy plate armor. Guardians were the only class that could use tower shields(or were it warriors, but, by design, berzerkers would use duals/two-handers all the time, because that was a big advantage to them). That would give guardians the most mitigation, because, thats what the design should implement, THE DEFENSIVE fighter. Guardians, as advertised, writen on the manual, and posted here, were to be THE defensive fighter, while others had other descriptions. And the buffs and gear put for the guardians showed that. But all that went away, as the game must evolve to what is the GENERAL vision, and even in beta, the development team started to see that something was wrong. The general vision is that all fighters will perform the PRIMARY hole for the archtype equaly. Right? We all know that, sorry, I just felt like writing it again ... Thats when we see the guardians are a broken design factor in this, because, if you have a fighter that must be THE DEFENSIVE one, and tanking is a hole that have its base in the DEFENSIVE skills(CA's, armor, whatever), that fighter would break the fact that all fighters must tank equal. Right ? (And it did, for 9 months, we know that.) So, armor was changed, and all mitigation fighters can use vanguard(and the stats were "tunned"). Shields means squat(or does it?). Buffs turn to be a lot subtle(yes, I am using an understatment...). Than comes LU#13. And the MOST DEFENSIVE fighter argument is turned to another direction. It is defensive because it have the "UNSUNG HERO" skills, to keep the group alive, to lock mobs aggro, blah blah. Sorry, but we all(WE, THAT PLAY GUARDIANS FOR 50+ levels) know that is BS* ! So, here it is, another thread started to see if the development team on this product (that we, GUARDIANS, also pay to use) can tell us what will be done (if anything can really be done!). Only that this time I say: IMHO(and I hope to hear from fellow guardians on this), this class is broken from day one. Now we see that as a final fact. All the skills given to this class are BS*, the game mechanics dictate that, no way out, GUARDIANS ARE A BAD IDEA. Fact. THIS IS A [Removed for Content] DESIGN ... (sorry, not saying the dev team don't have the skills on their trade, come on, look at this game! Its great. I started a mage, and man, am I having fun! But, my 52 level guardian? not fun.) By now we should see this and aggre on this ... YES! I was bitter. NOW I AM DISTRESSED!!!

Ironmeow

10-26-2005, 11:28 PM

I agree, even before the game came out and all we can see was the archetype description on the website, i thought it was strange there were 3 different tank classes when we all know there can only be one dominant tank in a group. So of course i went guardian duh who wouldn't. Even in EQ1 that delimna could be seen between warriors and paladins/sk's , warriors were obviously the choice to tank their mitigation was like 50% better than paladins and health pool about 1k more. Berzerkers werent even tanks they were chain wearing dps. Why split up the tank role at all? if they are all split equally all dps should be equal right? Guardians are supposed to sacrifice dps for mitigation through spells not by default. By default all the fighter classes should be the same, naked, but spells/ armors should be the deal breaker between them all. I think the "stances" need to be reviewed further and adjusted.

Raahl

10-26-2005, 11:47 PM

Hey all fighters Tank equally DPS equally Heal equally Utility equally Wait a minute, what am I saying.

Nibbl

10-27-2005, 09:03 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wlian wrote: By now, for me, this is a fact. The guardian class is a broken design within the class tree of EQ2. Correct me if I am wrong here, but I read that(I did not participate in beta) guardians were the only class that could use vanguard plate armor. Other fighters(mitigation) used havy plate armor. Guardians were the only class that could use tower shields(or were it warriors, but, by design, berzerkers would use duals/two-handers all the time, because that was a big advantage to them). That would give guardians the most mitigation, because, thats what the design should implement, THE DEFENSIVE fighter. Guardians, as advertised, writen on the manual, and posted here, were to be THE defensive fighter, while others had other descriptions. And the buffs and gear put for the guardians showed that. But all that went away, as the game must evolve to what is the GENERAL vision, and even in beta, the development team started to see that something was wrong. The general vision is that all fighters will perform the PRIMARY hole for the archtype equaly. Right? We all know that, sorry, I just felt like writing it again ... Thats when we see the guardians are a broken design factor in this, because, if you have a fighter that must be THE DEFENSIVE one, and tanking is a hole that have its base in the DEFENSIVE skills(CA's, armor, whatever), that fighter would break the fact that all fighters must tank equal. Right ? (And it did, for 9 months, we know that.) So, armor was changed, and all mitigation fighters can use vanguard(and the stats were "tunned"). Shields means squat(or does it?). Buffs turn to be a lot subtle(yes, I am using an understatment...). Than comes LU#13. And the MOST DEFENSIVE fighter argument is turned to another direction. It is defensive because it have the "UNSUNG HERO" skills, to keep the group alive, to lock mobs aggro, blah blah. Sorry, but we all(WE, THAT PLAY GUARDIANS FOR 50+ levels) know that is BS* ! So, here it is, another thread started to see if the development team on this product (that we, GUARDIANS, also pay to use) can tell us what will be done (if anything can really be done!). Only that this time I say: IMHO(and I hope to hear from fellow guardians on this), this class is broken from day one. Now we see that as a final fact. All the skills given to this class are BS*, the game mechanics dictate that, no way out, GUARDIANS ARE A BAD IDEA. Fact. THIS IS A [Removed for Content] DESIGN ... (sorry, not saying the dev team don't have the skills on their trade, come on, look at this game! Its great. I started a mage, and man, am I having fun! But, my 52 level guardian? not fun.) By now we should see this and aggre on this ... YES! I was bitter. NOW I AM DISTRESSED!!! (Im still in the bitter stage) <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I think that is correct statement. Gards at one time and by design were the best mitigation tanks through using the best armor (Vanguard) and having the best mitigation buffs, not true anymore. Now we have equal raw mit compared to other tanks (plate fighters), but Im guessing we have slightly higher mitigation with our buffs, not 100% sure. However these buffs only last 30 seconds and have 3 minute recasts. If your tanking for a small groups these mitigation buffs are all but useless, they can only be used every other pull or every 3rd, depending on how quick your group is killing stuff. Much of the intercept skills are useless as well especially for small group play, I have yet to use any of these. I have very few problems holding aggro and I don’t use any of the self root auto taunts either. So all of this utility we received post LU 13 I have yet to use or even found the need for it. Most of these skills come at a price anyway, slows, decreased melee, etc… We use to have a haste buff to help compensate for the slows, its gone <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I was expecting SoE to fix the buff stacking invulnerability issues while grouped with other classes, along with some minor class tweaks in LU 13. However, as you know they did much more then that <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Most of the guardians superiority issues was a result of stacking, some of this was fixed prior to LU 13, specifically the self buff HP stacking. There are myths perpetuated by others that make it seem guardians could self buff everthing, the "Great Trifecta" lie I will call it. Gards had the highest mitigation, HP, and avoidance when compared to all the fighters, YEA RIGHT. Guardians had the highest HP and mitigation when using self buffs, the high avoidance came from other classes buffs, like the wardens huge defensive buff. Never had my avoidance above 40% pre LU13 self buffed, I can reach 38% now, big change 2% <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> However, mobs use a different method to calculate a successful hit, with only a 2% change I sure do get hit more, a lot more <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Our biggest nerf is mitigation, but this applies to all plate classes. Mitigation should be more of a factor when using plate, I dont think it scales well compared to other armor types. Some stuff I expect SoE to address and fix with gards: <UL> <LI>Shorter recast timer on mitigation buffs, maybe 45 to 60 seconds, 180 seconds makes them useless. If your going to give us buffs give them!</LI> <LI>Give non raid utility, most of the intercept and intercede lines are for raiding, not small group play.</LI> <LI>Eliminate the roots with the auto taunts (these are for raiding anyway, never use them in small group content, mostly useless skills, except for the 0.5% raid content in the game)</LI> <LI>Raw non buffed mitigation (this applies to all plate classes not just gards)</LI></UL> Items I think are fine right now <UL> <LI>Taunts (at least for non epic mobs)</LI> <LI>DPS (we did get a slight increase, I do kill stuff faster soloing, which shows SoE does lie. I remember a statement stating DPS among fighters would be reduced. My parses show about a 30% more, at least for me. lol)</LI></UL> I played my guardian exclusively for the first 3 weeks after LU 13, I soon realized the class needed some help. I did a few epic mobs, many small groups, and soloed. Prior to LU 13 we mitigated and avoided a considerable amount of damage, but had really low dps, which made for very long fights (a tradeoff if soloing). Now we have about the same raw tanking ability compared to other plates classes. With the other changes to combat mechanics associated with mobs gards take significantly more damage then before (not unique to gards, all plates classes suffer from this), I get hit more often and take more damage per hit. I was expecting the frequency of successful mob hits to increase, but the increased damage per hit, no. When comparing all our abilities gards are on the bottom rung. We do have slight edge in tanking and aggro, but our dps and miscellaneous utility drops us below other fighters IMO. Message Edited by Nibblar on 10-27-2005 10:41 AM

bink

10-27-2005, 09:57 AM

<blockquote>Some stuff I expect SoE to address and fix with gards:</blockquote><ul><ul><li>Shorter recast timer on mitigation buffs, maybe 45 to 60 seconds, 180 seconds makes them useless. If your going to give us buffs give them!</li></ul><ul><li>Give non raid utility, most of the intercept and intercede lines are for raiding, not small group play.</li></ul><ul><li>Eliminate the roots with the auto taunts (these are for raiding anyway, never use them in small group content, mostly useless skills, except for the 0.5% raid content in the game)</li></ul><ul><li>Raw non buffed mitigation (this applies to all plate classes not just gards)</li></ul></ul><blockquote>Items I think are fine right now</blockquote><ul><ul><li>Taunts (at least for non epic mobs)</li></ul><ul><li>DPS (we did get a slight increase, I do kill stuff faster soloing, which shows SoE does lie. I remember a statement stating DPS among fighters would be reduced. My parses show about a 30% more, at least for me. lol)</li></ul></ul><hr>Instead of shorter recast timers, I'd rather see the buffs last longer. Otherwise I'd agree with all your points. I'd rather have mit over dps though :smileywink:

Sasaki Koji

10-27-2005, 02:08 PM

Guardian - Heavy, Vanguard or Plate Berzerker - Heavy, Plate only Shadowknight - Heavy, Vanguard Paladin - Heavy, Vanguard Bruiser - Light Monk - Light Templar - Heavy, Plate Inquisitor - Heavy, Plate Mystic - Medium Defiler - Medium Fury - Light Warden - Light Scout - Medium Mage - Very Light *EQ2 Manual.* <HR> Guardian - Anything Berzerker - Anything Shadowknight - Anything Paladin - Anything Bruiser - light/very light Monk - Light/Very Light Templar - Anything Inquisitor - Anything Mystic - medium/Light/Very Light Defiler - medium/Light/Very Light Fury - Light/Very Light Warden Light/Very Light Scout - Medium/Light/Very Light Mage - Very Light *In Reality* <HR> Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on 10-27-200503:12 AMMessage Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on 10-27-2005 03:12 AM