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Venomo

10-26-2005, 03:29 PM

Stopped playing the game a few weeks after the LU in disgust, logged back in a couple of nights ago in the hope of some changes, and nothing ( apart from a level 24 ish skill [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]? ). Have the devs even acknowledged that they've destroyed the guardian class? Have they even mentioned that they are looking at Guardians? I'm really running out of hope and am considering cancelling and playing something else...Looking for a glimmer of light in the darkness here...

restinpea

10-26-2005, 03:46 PM

Same situation here. No strenght to restart an other caractere and less group or raid place/role for me as the time and level go on. About to cancel account and let my 56 guard die. tired to whine and see other peeps always complain for the same issues again and again (which is normal) with no reaction of SOE. The only thing that let me log on some time again is time and efforts i spent in EQ2 for my caractere, in last solution i ll get fun in an other game even i don t really want.

Drulak

10-26-2005, 03:48 PM

Don't want to upset you anymore than you already are , but from what i read , the Dev's are happy with Current situation and have no plans to alter it. But then again , No devs play Guards , so of course they are happy with it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Ironmeow

10-26-2005, 08:41 PM

no devs play guards? wow i just lost all respect for them

CheezeBurgerAnimal

10-26-2005, 10:59 PM

<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=21752&query.id=0#M21752" target=_blank>Unsung Hero</A> The Dev's have spoken, Guardians are working as intended. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raahl

10-26-2005, 11:14 PM

I too am growing very weary of the lip service we are receiving. We have posted constructive posts about the issues and suggestion, but have heard nothing.

Ironmeow

10-26-2005, 11:19 PM

well whats "working as intended" bites! If working as intended means broken then this product called eq2 is sorely broken.

10-26-2005, 11:35 PM

Well at least they did sticky a thread where posters could give suggestions and feedback, so I think that shows they are listening and realize we arent happy. But as stated before, they arent going to say they are thinking about changing this or that until they actually make changes because it would create a liability if they dont put things in exactly the way they propose them. I come to the forums often and see whats being said, but frankly most of the constructive ideas get turned into a flame war, and digging though 10 pages of flaming to find a constructive idea gets old. Is there some best way to get our issues across without getting into mindless flaming? I dont know.

Krooner

10-26-2005, 11:38 PM

Actually Im of the opinion now that they arnt going to fix guardians. Its simple to work out. 6 fighter classes. one bugged.... you still have 5 good ones... let them roll another toon.. when all the guardians are R.I.P. then simply delete class. Problem solved.

Raahl

10-26-2005, 11:43 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote: Actually Im of the opinion now that they arnt going to fix guardians. Its simple to work out. 6 fighter classes. one bugged.... you still have 5 good ones... let them roll another toon.. when all the guardians are R.I.P. then simply delete class. Problem solved. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I too believe they have no plans on fixing our class. It seems that the developers are patting themselves on the backs for what a wonderful job they did in LU #13, living in a fantasy world. If the guardian class was not broken there would not be as many people here saying that it is.

Kasar

10-27-2005, 04:18 AM

<blockquote><hr>Raahl wrote: If the guardian class was not broken there would not be as many people here saying that it is. <hr></blockquote> As they've said before, they expect some complaints, you can never please everyone. Just as a comparison though, check the monk forum. Discussions of stratics, how best to play the class, etc. Very little complaining. Obviously there's just a majority of whiners who rolled guardians. Pre-LU13, I almost never checked these forums. I keep looking for some sign, but all the signs are no.

Greyto

10-27-2005, 05:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kasar wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote: If the guardian class was not broken there would not be as many people here saying that it is. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> As they've said before, they expect some complaints, you can never please everyone. Just as a comparison though, check the monk forum. Discussions of stratics, how best to play the class, etc. Very little complaining. Obviously there's just a majority of whiners who rolled guardians. Pre-LU13, I almost never checked these forums. I keep looking for some sign, but all the signs are no. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Yup I never posted here once before the changes, now I guess I am here way too much, man I wish one of the new games would get out of beta.... oh but wait rushing things to the public before it was ready is what got us in this mess ain't it? LOL I guess I will wait <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Raijinn

10-27-2005, 05:06 AM

I wanted to pop in and let you all know that your not forgotten. I don't have any updates for you at this point however I believe there is a good understanding here of what you would like to see in game and what you would like to change. Thanks for all the input from the Guardian forum so far.

Greyto

10-27-2005, 05:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: I wanted to pop in and let you all know that your not forgotten. I don't have any updates for you at this point however I believe there is a good understanding here of what you would like to see in game and what you would like to change. Thanks for all the input from the Guardian forum so far. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> man one more step and I know I will catch that carrott <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> crap missed again one...... more....... step....... crap..... step..... Thanks for the update Joel any word on when we might hear something from SOE possibly telling us when they plan to let us know when they might release any news of a possible proposed outline as to when they may have time to fill us in on any future guardian changes that may be impending in any updates that are being considered for implementation at a later date in time? or is it to soon to ask?

Allaanon

10-27-2005, 06:28 AM

I just appreciate someone actually acknowledging us. If you would stop in every 3 days and put down that same post with 3 different words, I would be happy.

Raijinn

10-27-2005, 11:09 AM

I can understand how frustrating it is and I don't like leaving people in the dark so I at least like to say that yes your issues are acknowledged and yes they are being looked into. Other than that most of the details are top secret. Then again top secret is usually good right?

knightinplaid

10-27-2005, 11:32 AM

As top secret as say, how to release the frogloks? :smileyvery-happy: Well you did say usually so here's to hoping!

restinpea

10-27-2005, 11:33 AM

TY man. Nice to have something "to eat" even it s too bad Guards need to whine to get an answer or some news. In waiting of your "top secret" stuff.... :smileywink: just don t dessapoint us :smileymad:

Raijinn

10-27-2005, 11:34 AM

I thought I would throw you something, here's what's new on test.. Guardian changes: - Tower of Stone should now absorb damage correctly.

Wabit

10-27-2005, 11:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: I can understand how frustrating it is and I don't like leaving people in the dark so I at least like to say that yes your issues are acknowledged and yes they are being looked into. Other than that most of the details are top secret. Then again top secret is usually good right? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>spent 5 years in the Navy and had a security clearence... didn't have the "need to know" check for alot fo things but the stuff i did see wasn't usually good... and no i asked they, wouldn't tell me who kill JFK :smileysad: ... i'm really hating my guardian right now... a dev responce saying something other than... <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote: I moved some sticky threads from the old Combat Changes board to this one. I suggest anyone returning to the game after a long absence read through Lockeye's post and at least scan through my unwieldy list of changes. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically, it's a good idea to clear your hotbars, sort your knowledge book a couple different ways, and try a new setup for your spells and arts. The changes are that significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for raid mobs, there's no question they'll be more challenging now. You will need to learn new strategies to defeat them. Approaching these encounters with a fresh eye will definitely be helpful.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> or sniping out some stuff... <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote: The biggest issue with guardians may be one of perception. By that I don't mean that you perceive there are problems that don't exist of that we (devs) don't agree with; I mean that the advantages of the guardian class are the hardest to look at and say "oh yeah, that's why they rock." Guardians aren't flashy and don't have a lot of sexy abilities that stand out as unique. They tend to have the same core abilities as other fighters, but they do them better. Because of that, some might take those advantages for granted. The nature of the guardian is perhaps to be the unsung hero, and it's understandable that such a role doesn't sit well with some folks. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The ppl who play the Guardian class can see what wrong with it best... from the overly hard (for a new player with their quested gear, app4's, ect) lvl 20 quest to become a Guard, to the ones that are raiding the t6 epics... if you want to really see how things are at the high end come on a raid with us... i'll drag my guild threw whatever epic you want to see and tell us how we're the unsung hero's... more like the last man standing cause taunts were resisted and agro went everywhere... or follow around Malice, NPU, Vagabons, ect... they've already done the things we're just learning... watch the combat logs first hand... i know this can be done cause after you souped up Kra'tuk the last time we had someone watching us getting beat up by it... a lvl 11 with lvl 3 artisan... he could do nifty tricks like summon food drink outta thin air (server discoveries on it), and sent the epic running off so we could get our shards from under it after we called it a night... Wabit Edited for this... <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: I thought I would throw you something, here's what's new on test.. Guardian changes: - Tower of Stone should now absorb damage correctly. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> not to be contrite (sp?) but they are fixing a bug (that most aren't high enough to even use the skill)... one skill being fixed (unless it our taunts) isn't going to make Guardians be the equal tanks that has been preached about... one [Removed for Content] off bunnyMessage Edited by Wabit on 10-27-2005 03:45 AM

restinpea

10-27-2005, 11:37 AM

Guardian changes: - Tower of Stone should now absorb damage correctly. woot :smileyvery-happy:Message Edited by restinpeace on 10-27-2005 12:42 AM

Aven Elonis

10-27-2005, 02:22 PM

Raijinn, Hopefully you have read the other posts on Tower of Stone, and there are other issues with this spell, beside the fact it was absorping damage as intended. For a class defining combat art......well lets say I've seen better suggestions on these forums, than this spell. I can only carry so many shields and the cost of repair will likely bankrupt me. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> (No wait thats what the lottery is for) If the spell worked on 3 hits which were greater than 50% of guardians buffed HP, causing 20% damage to shield at Adept 3, then the spell might be worth while. Right now I think it aborbs 3 hits greater than 10% of the guardians unbuffed HP and cause 50% damage. (Correct me if I have this wrong). Aven Elonis 59 Guardian, Tempest, Steamfont BTW - I can read the test updates like anyone else. See me jump up and down with joy that there is even a line in a set of update notes that has the word guardian in it. NOT

Tro

10-27-2005, 02:52 PM

There was a post a while ago where MG said they would be "tweaking" the guardians a bit.. At first I was glad to see that but then remembered how many times I saw comments like that only to realize the "tweaks" he was referring to will very likely be nothing of real value.. (I.E. Tower of Stone) After seeing a comparison with some of the other fighters as far as utility.. IMO we are severly lacking in that department.. It is obvious we are not getting any more Mitigation (Raw or CA) so some utility would be nice.. My fear is that when/if they decide to give us utility it will be such a small amount that it will be f'ing uselsess but then they can say the gave us what alot of us were asking for. When I saw the post from MG saying the guardians were fine.. my Jaw dropped to the floor.. I was like "You have to be kidding" Bottom line is, the Dev's are happy with the way the guards fall into place in the fighter world. Alot of guards however disagree. Will we see any useful changes? I am not holding my breath.. but maybe, just maybe we will be atleast a little happy with what ever is done.

Raahl

10-27-2005, 06:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: I thought I would throw you something, here's what's new on test.. Guardian changes: - Tower of Stone should now absorb damage correctly. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks for all your posts Raijinn. Though this post is pretty lacking in the details department. Don't have this skill, so I'm not sure what was broken. The problems that are primarily seen by Guardians below 50 do not seem to be getting addressed. There was one that helped DPS for 20 to mid 30 guardians by giving them an offensive buff. But there are so many other issues that still affect the 20-49 guardians. These issues are still there for 50+ but less of an issue for them. I understand that you cannot tell us any details. I'd like to see one of the Dev's come here and post that they are looking into what is needed to address the guardian issues. No details needed. Message Edited by Raahl on 10-27-2005 11:01 AMMessage Edited by Raahl on 10-27-2005 11:01 AM

lotteria

10-27-2005, 07:09 PM

Raijinn, I had hold hope that you would bring changes to the guardian class. However, your promise on "top secret" turn out to be far disappointing, The real issues of guard has never been addressed. I hope you not turn out to be just another MG. There are far too much frustration among the guard population and patience is runing low. Btw, have you ever play a guard?

Raahl

10-27-2005, 07:12 PM

Please lets not be overly tough on Raijinn. I still sincerely believe that he is working to get the guardian issues noticed. I just believe the developers are not listening.

CheezeBurgerAnimal

10-27-2005, 07:19 PM

Oh, gotta love that. There gonna fix a bugged high 50's spell. I feel the love. Maybe someday soon we can get a cool fluff spell too! See it's not all doom and gloom

RafaelSmith

10-27-2005, 07:21 PM

I would like a straight answer as much as the next guy but Im smart enough to realize that SOE cannot provide that. However they can do more than they are doing....saying "We are collecting your info" isnt enough. Simply saying that yes some of the inbalances Guardians are describing are legit and we are working on fixing them would be more than enough to satisfy me. If they came out today and said...we are giveing Guards this that or the other thing...then all the current childish threads would simply change topic but still remain nothing more than a virtual [Removed for Content] contest. All I want is an acknowledgement that yes there are problems and that they are being corrected...dont need any time frame just the acknowledgment. But given the arrogance of some of Moorgards recent replys to Guardian issues my fear is that they in fact do not acknowledge there is a problem....This is very unfortunate because it prooves just how out of sync the Devs are with the average player...which doesnt boad well for the future of the game as a whole.

Benfyn

10-27-2005, 07:40 PM

Does any other class have a combat art or spell that, when used, has a monetary cost per use? It's sad when you use an ability and know that it just doubled your mender bill. Krrrath, lvl 58 Guardian of Kithicor

SGho

10-27-2005, 07:43 PM

It isn't just that it costs money. 1. The cost varies depending on the shield you have, so it's not a fixed amount. God forbid I would never use the SBS with this ability. 2. It destroys equipment, rendering it useless until it's repaired. No other class has this drawback. 3. Other fighter classes have similar/better CAs of this same time with no damage or cost incurred.

Tochy

10-27-2005, 07:50 PM

Give us something to self repair our equipments like the Ranger can invoc arrows, or others can heal them, or invoc stones. And works more deeply in more useful arts that use our items constitution, that would be fun.

Thanous

10-27-2005, 08:30 PM

Raijnn, I don't think SOE will gain a whole lot of credit for "fixing" a spell that so few of us have and also giving so few details on how it is fixed (was damage not being intercepted? Was the number of hits increased? Was the shield damage removed from the spell? What was done?)As for "top secret" I suppose it would be good to know if the secret was that nothing is being done, or if something is in the hopper besides bug fixes (which no one should have to beg for anyhow).All that being said, thank you for at least taking our issues to the PTB. We know you don't make the call as to what gets posted or changed.Thanks

Jida

10-27-2005, 08:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: I thought I would throw you something, here's what's new on test.. Guardian changes: - Tower of Stone should now absorb damage correctly. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Woot.. Still waiting for Templar changes: - Templars can now (insert super uber solo spell here) at level 20 and grows with you as you level. and side note... I need to smack whomever told the dev's to take out consencrate as a spell. Geesh. i wish i as able to beta test the combat revamp.. I would have complainnnnneedd <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Elder

Raijinn

10-27-2005, 08:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote: Please lets not be overly tough on Raijinn. I still sincerely believe that he is working to get the guardian issues noticed. I just believe the developers are not listening. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Actually as a note they are listening but while this update has some additional content I believe more balance issues will be addressed in the near future.

Thanous

10-27-2005, 08:59 PM

Shizzirri

10-27-2005, 09:00 PM

Near future means when? 6 months?

RafaelSmith

10-27-2005, 09:01 PM

<blockquote><hr>Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Raahl wrote:Please lets not be overly tough on Raijinn. I still sincerely believe that he is working to get the guardian issues noticed. I just believe the developers are not listening. <hr> </blockquote> Actually as a note they are listening but while this update has some additional content I believe more balance issues will be addressed in the near future.<hr></blockquote>Joel, I mean this with all due respect and in all honesty....we need a simple 1 line statement from you or someone from SOE stating that yes some of the issues many Guardians have been discussing are in fact inbalances that are being fixed. Im not asking for fix details or time frames but part of the problem currently is that from our (the player) perspective all we have heard form SOE is that they are happy with fighters as they are....That my friend is a serious descrepency between SOE and its playerbase. It seems they may be "listening" to what we say but not actually "hearing" or even aknowledging it. More specfically from a personal point of view I would very much like SOE to come out and tell me if in fact Guardian "specialty" is in fact suppose to be equally useful while soloing as it is while raiding? If not then we have a really big problem with fighter balance. It doesnt take a parser or anythign like that to realize that when soloing or in small groups any of the other 5 fighters types are a fer better choice...can I do the job..yes...but I am the worst choice for the job. IMHO that shouldnt be the case at any level of play. Cheers,

Sheridan-Guk

10-28-2005, 12:13 AM

Raj, thanks for your replies. Even if you can't share the details, its good to see you checking in.

Prufro

10-28-2005, 12:25 AM

<blockquote><hr>Raahl wrote: The problems that are primarily seen by Guardians below 50 do not seem to be getting addressed. There was one that helped DPS for 20 to mid 30 guardians by giving them an offensive buff. But there are so many other issues that still affect the 20-49 guardians. These issues are still there for 50+ but less of an issue for them. <hr></blockquote>What problems? I've been playing from 27-45 since LU13 and i have experienced no issues. I am an extremely effective tank having no problems with aggro or mitigation. I can tank level 49 named mobs in a trio at level 45. There may be solo "problems," but really, you don't pick a guardian to solo, he sucks at soloing, he always has. I can solo yellow ^ mobs and green ^^^ heroics, it just takes forever. I knew this, i'm sure everyone knows this, when choosing to play a guardian. What are the issues that are affecting me so much that i don't even notice them?

Krooner

10-28-2005, 12:29 AM

Prufrock. Do some major content. Raids Epics Contesteds... Then come here and ask the same question.

Raahl

10-28-2005, 12:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote: The problems that are primarily seen by Guardians below 50 do not seem to be getting addressed. There was one that helped DPS for 20 to mid 30 guardians by giving them an offensive buff. But there are so many other issues that still affect the 20-49 guardians. These issues are still there for 50+ but less of an issue for them. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>What problems? I've been playing from 27-45 since LU13 and i have experienced no issues. I am an extremely effective tank having no problems with aggro or mitigation. I can tank level 49 named mobs in a trio at level 45. There may be solo "problems," but really, you don't pick a guardian to solo, he sucks at soloing, he always has. I can solo yellow ^ mobs and green ^^^ heroics, it just takes forever. I knew this, i'm sure everyone knows this, when choosing to play a guardian. What are the issues that are affecting me so much that i don't even notice them? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Please see the sticky at the top of the guardian forum marked Issues and Suggestions. If you are not having any issues, I'm happy for you. There are a good number of us that are having issues and are not happy.

Raahl

10-28-2005, 12:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote: Please lets not be overly tough on Raijinn. I still sincerely believe that he is working to get the guardian issues noticed. I just believe the developers are not listening. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Actually as a note they are listening but while this update has some additional content I believe more balance issues will be addressed in the near future. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Thanks again Raijinn. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gaige

10-28-2005, 12:58 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote: But then again , No devs play Guards , so of course they are happy with it <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Wrong.

Prufro

10-28-2005, 01:02 AM

<blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:Prufrock. Do some major content. Raids Epics Contesteds... Then come here and ask the same question. <hr></blockquote>Major raid content from 27-45? hmm, i didn't realize there was a lot of it to do. Were you guys tanking T5 raids at level 45 when not in full ebon (don't have 7plat, nor do i want to harvest)? You missed my post, i wasn't talking about raids, i was talking about all these supposed problems we're having during T4 that i didn't notice. I've read the sticky, those complaints are not coming from low level guardians, they're coming from everyone who quit level 50+ and choose to whine until they get their way.

knightinplaid

10-28-2005, 01:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote: Prufrock. Do some major content. Raids Epics Contesteds... Then come here and ask the same question. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Major raid content from 27-45? hmm, i didn't realize there was a lot of it to do. Were you guys tanking T5 raids at level 45 when not in full ebon (don't have 7plat, nor do i want to harvest)? You missed my post, i wasn't talking about raids, i was talking about all these supposed problems we're having during T4 that i didn't notice. I've read the sticky, those complaints are not coming from low level guardians, they're coming from everyone who quit level 50+ and choose to whine until they get their way. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For the record I'm 59 and still playing and I can't look at any of the posts I've made in the last month and a half and consider them a "whine" so the lumping won't add much credibility to your arguement. Moving on, the problems that most are referencing and you aren't noticing is not that we are ineffective, but rather other subclasses are just as or moreso effective in many aspects regarding tanking while the guardian edge is slight to nonexistent in a majority of encounters (that's where the stickied post comes into play). You may perform very well in your eyes just as I feel I do in most groups since that's where you probably spend the majority of your time pre-50, the problem is that there are others out there that do it better and you will probably not see that in your daily experiences.

Prufro

10-28-2005, 01:54 AM

<blockquote><hr>knightinplaid wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Prufrock wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Warbird1 wrote: Prufrock. Do some major content. Raids Epics Contesteds... Then come here and ask the same question. <hr> </blockquote>Major raid content from 27-45? hmm, i didn't realize there was a lot of it to do. Were you guys tanking T5 raids at level 45 when not in full ebon (don't have 7plat, nor do i want to harvest)?You missed my post, i wasn't talking about raids, i was talking about all these supposed problems we're having during T4 that i didn't notice.I've read the sticky, those complaints are not coming from low level guardians, they're coming from everyone who quit level 50+ and choose to whine until they get their way. <hr> </blockquote>For the record I'm 59 and still playing and I can't look at any of the posts I've made in the last month and a half and consider them a "whine" so the lumping won't add much credibility to your arguement. Moving on, the problems that most are referencing and you aren't noticing is not that we are ineffective, but rather other subclasses are just as or moreso effective in many aspects regarding tanking while the guardian edge is slight to nonexistent in a majority of encounters (that's where the stickied post comes into play). You may perform very well in your eyes just as I feel I do in most groups since that's where you probably spend the majority of your time pre-50, the problem is that there are others out there that do it better and you will probably not see that in your daily experiences.<hr></blockquote>Ah, i see, so we don't have an incredible edge over every other fighter class, just a slight one, therefore we need to be fixed. You want some cheese? Only 20p.

knightinplaid

10-28-2005, 02:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> knightinplaid wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote: Prufrock. Do some major content. Raids Epics Contesteds... Then come here and ask the same question. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Major raid content from 27-45? hmm, i didn't realize there was a lot of it to do. Were you guys tanking T5 raids at level 45 when not in full ebon (don't have 7plat, nor do i want to harvest)? You missed my post, i wasn't talking about raids, i was talking about all these supposed problems we're having during T4 that i didn't notice. I've read the sticky, those complaints are not coming from low level guardians, they're coming from everyone who quit level 50+ and choose to whine until they get their way. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For the record I'm 59 and still playing and I can't look at any of the posts I've made in the last month and a half and consider them a "whine" so the lumping won't add much credibility to your arguement. Moving on, the problems that most are referencing and you aren't noticing is not that we are ineffective, but rather other subclasses are just as or moreso effective in many aspects regarding tanking while the guardian edge is slight to nonexistent in a majority of encounters (that's where the stickied post comes into play). You may perform very well in your eyes just as I feel I do in most groups since that's where you probably spend the majority of your time pre-50, the problem is that there are others out there that do it better and you will probably not see that in your daily experiences. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, i see, so we don't have an incredible edge over every other fighter class, just a slight one, therefore we need to be fixed. You want some cheese? Only 20p. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> A quick proofread of the section I highlighted for you infers the opposite of your brash repsonse. We do not have a slight edge over every other fight class in every situation and are continuing to ask for an "incredible" one. You asked what the problem was when a mild amount of reseach and critical thinking probably could have brought you to the same conclusion, regardles of whether you agree with it or not. You are given the answer on a silver platter because at your level you may not have the firsthand experience and exposure to other classes abilities and you've chosen to be rude instead. Seriously take a hike. Message Edited by knightinplaid on 10-27-2005 03:24 PMMessage Edited by knightinplaid on 10-27-2005 03:34 PM

a6eaq

10-28-2005, 02:29 AM

Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> knightinplaid wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote: Prufrock. Do some major content. Raids Epics Contesteds... Then come here and ask the same question. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Major raid content from 27-45? hmm, i didn't realize there was a lot of it to do. Were you guys tanking T5 raids at level 45 when not in full ebon (don't have 7plat, nor do i want to harvest)? You missed my post, i wasn't talking about raids, i was talking about all these supposed problems we're having during T4 that i didn't notice. I've read the sticky, those complaints are not coming from low level guardians, they're coming from everyone who quit level 50+ and choose to whine until they get their way. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For the record I'm 59 and still playing and I can't look at any of the posts I've made in the last month and a half and consider them a "whine" so the lumping won't add much credibility to your arguement. Moving on, the problems that most are referencing and you aren't noticing is not that we are ineffective, but rather other subclasses are just as or moreso effective in many aspects regarding tanking while the guardian edge is slight to nonexistent in a majority of encounters (that's where the stickied post comes into play). You may perform very well in your eyes just as I feel I do in most groups since that's where you probably spend the majority of your time pre-50, the problem is that there are others out there that do it better and you will probably not see that in your daily experiences. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, i see, so we don't have an incredible edge over every other fighter class, just a slight one, therefore we need to be fixed. You want some cheese? Only 20p. <HR> So, you are not even at level 50, not raided pre and post LU13, are happy with being stunned/stifled a good portion of every fight, were not at the end game at level 50 for MONTHS, did not have to relearn a toon you played for 11 months or so (not a guardian specific problem I know) and have the audacity to call those of us that aren't having fun, "whinners"? I will admit that a lot of guardians played guardians thinking that we are the only real choice for a tank, but most of us "whinners" want to have a thing called FUN again playing our chosen toons! It is no fun to go hours with an LFG tag up waiting for an invite, to get told with you as a tank XP gain is too slow, uses tooo much power to keep you alive, DPSers can take agro from you if/when taunts are resisted, etc, etc, etc. The cheese might be 20 plat, but your pucker job is priceless:smileywink:

Prufro

10-28-2005, 03:26 AM

<blockquote><hr>a6eaq wrote:Prufrock wrote: <blockquote> <hr> knightinplaid wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Prufrock wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Warbird1 wrote: Prufrock. Do some major content. Raids Epics Contesteds... Then come here and ask the same question. <hr> </blockquote>Major raid content from 27-45? hmm, i didn't realize there was a lot of it to do. Were you guys tanking T5 raids at level 45 when not in full ebon (don't have 7plat, nor do i want to harvest)?You missed my post, i wasn't talking about raids, i was talking about all these supposed problems we're having during T4 that i didn't notice.I've read the sticky, those complaints are not coming from low level guardians, they're coming from everyone who quit level 50+ and choose to whine until they get their way. <hr> </blockquote>For the record I'm 59 and still playing and I can't look at any of the posts I've made in the last month and a half and consider them a "whine" so the lumping won't add much credibility to your arguement. Moving on, the problems that most are referencing and you aren't noticing is not that we are ineffective, but rather other subclasses are just as or moreso effective in many aspects regarding tanking while the guardian edge is slight to nonexistent in a majority of encounters (that's where the stickied post comes into play). You may perform very well in your eyes just as I feel I do in most groups since that's where you probably spend the majority of your time pre-50, the problem is that there are others out there that do it better and you will probably not see that in your daily experiences. <hr> </blockquote> Ah, i see, so we don't have an incredible edge over every other fighter class, just a slight one, therefore we need to be fixed.You want some cheese? Only 20p. <hr> So, you are not even at level 50, not raided pre and post LU13, are happy with being stunned/stifled a good portion of every fight, were not at the end game at level 50 for MONTHS, did not have to relearn a toon you played for 11 months or so (not a guardian specific problem I know) and have the audacity to call those of us that aren't having fun, "whinners"? I will admit that a lot of guardians played guardians thinking that we are the only real choice for a tank, but most of us "whinners" want to have a thing called FUN again playing our chosen toons! It is no fun to go hours with an LFG tag up waiting for an invite, to get told with you as a tank XP gain is too slow, uses tooo much power to keep you alive, DPSers can take agro from you if/when taunts are resisted, etc, etc, etc. The cheese might be 20 plat, but your pucker job is priceless:smileywink:<hr></blockquote>*sigh* No, i'm not level 50, but guess what, the cap is 60 now, so who cares. No, i haven't raided, but 3 guardians in my guild have raided pre and post LU13, and they still can, and still feel effective, and guardian is our only choice for tank. I don't get stunned/stifled for a good portion of the tank. Want to know why? Mental resist. What's that you say? You didn't know you could resist this? Oh, too busy asking for some cheese i guess. And you misquoted me, i correctly spelled whiners as whiners, not "whinners." Sitting around LFG for hours? You know, i've been a tank in every MMO i've played, you want to know how i avoid sitting LFG for hours? BUILD A GROUP MYSELF! Find a healer and a bunch of dps and you have a group. Any whoever said xp with you as a tank is slower than any other tank isn't worth grouping with. As a guardian in a trio fighting up to 3 level higher heroics for xp the healer, who is a warden, typically ends the fight with 70%+ power left. I'm the one that has the lowest power, usually around 50%, but i always have drinks so that's not an issue. If the dps in your group is taking aggro communicate with them that they need to back off, or learn how to build aggro better. My ranger friend can use legendary poison and spam all his damage on any fight at any time and i keep hate because we have worked together on what the best way for me to do it is. Oh, and he has a spell that reduces his hate and always has it up. Oh, and i have my protection spell that also reduces hate at adept 3. Do you honestly think any change SOE makes will make the game fun for you? Really, if you want to tank then tank, a change to guardians isn't going to make it more fun, you'll still be tanking. Unless they make a change that makes keeping hate not a challenge and you believe fun=easy mode. I believe fun=challenge, observation, and dedication to be the best that you can be. Tell you what, out of sympathy the cheese is on sale until further notice, 50% off, only 10p.Edit: please stop with the "you're not level 60, you don't know jack and you still rock, wait until 60 then come back and say something" comments. They don't fit, i'm still a guardian at 45, as will i be at 60. If a monk can outtank me i really don't care, because i'm a guardian, and a tank. I will always find people to form a group, no matter what level. If someone told me i suck at tanking i'd tell them to group with me to find out, and they'd find out guardians still kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn].Message Edited by Prufrock on 10-27-2005 04:31 PM

knightinplaid

10-28-2005, 04:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> a6eaq wrote: Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> knightinplaid wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote: Prufrock. Do some major content. Raids Epics Contesteds... Then come here and ask the same question. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Major raid content from 27-45? hmm, i didn't realize there was a lot of it to do. Were you guys tanking T5 raids at level 45 when not in full ebon (don't have 7plat, nor do i want to harvest)? You missed my post, i wasn't talking about raids, i was talking about all these supposed problems we're having during T4 that i didn't notice. I've read the sticky, those complaints are not coming from low level guardians, they're coming from everyone who quit level 50+ and choose to whine until they get their way. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For the record I'm 59 and still playing and I can't look at any of the posts I've made in the last month and a half and consider them a "whine" so the lumping won't add much credibility to your arguement. Moving on, the problems that most are referencing and you aren't noticing is not that we are ineffective, but rather other subclasses are just as or moreso effective in many aspects regarding tanking while the guardian edge is slight to nonexistent in a majority of encounters (that's where the stickied post comes into play). You may perform very well in your eyes just as I feel I do in most groups since that's where you probably spend the majority of your time pre-50, the problem is that there are others out there that do it better and you will probably not see that in your daily experiences. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Ah, i see, so we don't have an incredible edge over every other fighter class, just a slight one, therefore we need to be fixed. You want some cheese? Only 20p. <HR> So, you are not even at level 50, not raided pre and post LU13, are happy with being stunned/stifled a good portion of every fight, were not at the end game at level 50 for MONTHS, did not have to relearn a toon you played for 11 months or so (not a guardian specific problem I know) and have the audacity to call those of us that aren't having fun, "whinners"? I will admit that a lot of guardians played guardians thinking that we are the only real choice for a tank, but most of us "whinners" want to have a thing called FUN again playing our chosen toons! It is no fun to go hours with an LFG tag up waiting for an invite, to get told with you as a tank XP gain is too slow, uses tooo much power to keep you alive, DPSers can take agro from you if/when taunts are resisted, etc, etc, etc. The cheese might be 20 plat, but your pucker job is priceless:smileywink: <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>*sigh* No, i'm not level 50, but guess what, the cap is 60 now, so who cares. No, i haven't raided, but 3 guardians in my guild have raided pre and post LU13, and they still can, and still feel effective, and guardian is our only choice for tank. I don't get stunned/stifled for a good portion of the tank. Want to know why? Mental resist. What's that you say? You didn't know you could resist this? Oh, too busy asking for some cheese i guess. And you misquoted me, i correctly spelled whiners as whiners, not "whinners." Sitting around LFG for hours? You know, i've been a tank in every MMO i've played, you want to know how i avoid sitting LFG for hours? BUILD A GROUP MYSELF! Find a healer and a bunch of dps and you have a group. Any whoever said xp with you as a tank is slower than any other tank isn't worth grouping with. As a guardian in a trio fighting up to 3 level higher heroics for xp the healer, who is a warden, typically ends the fight with 70%+ power left. I'm the one that has the lowest power, usually around 50%, but i always have drinks so that's not an issue. If the dps in your group is taking aggro communicate with them that they need to back off, or learn how to build aggro better. My ranger friend can use legendary poison and spam all his damage on any fight at any time and i keep hate because we have worked together on what the best way for me to do it is. Oh, and he has a spell that reduces his hate and always has it up. Oh, and i have my protection spell that also reduces hate at adept 3. Do you honestly think any change SOE makes will make the game fun for you? Really, if you want to tank then tank, a change to guardians isn't going to make it more fun, you'll still be tanking. Unless they make a change that makes keeping hate not a challenge and you believe fun=easy mode. I believe fun=challenge, observation, and dedication to be the best that you can be. Tell you what, out of sympathy the cheese is on sale until further notice, 50% off, only 10p. Edit: please stop with the "you're not level 60, you don't know jack and you still rock, wait until 60 then come back and say something" comments. They don't fit, i'm still a guardian at 45, as will i be at 60. If a monk can outtank me i really don't care, because i'm a guardian, and a tank. I will always find people to form a group, no matter what level. If someone told me i suck at tanking i'd tell them to group with me to find out, and they'd find out guardians still kick [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn]. Message Edited by Prufrock on 10-27-2005 04:31 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> The three most prevalent stifles/stuns we encounter are Vanquish (8ish sec), Stifling Slash (5sec.), and Cut throat (5sec); all of which are trauma-based (crushing and slashing in this case). Mental resistance will not help you in the slightest, however avoidance will, an attribute that brawlers have over warriors and crusaders. Even on the few stuns and stifles that are mental based attacks/spells your mental mitigation does little, initial resists checks are now (someone correct me if I'm wrong here) governed by wisdom. Previously this was done by Spell Avoidance until it was removed. If you fail the initial check then your mental (or whichever arcane applies) resist number will mitigate out the damage attached to that attack/spell, the negative effect (ie stifle/stun/debuff) will still land. The rest of your comments don't really apply to me so I can't comment on them. I get along well enough because most my playing involves people I have good social bonds with and not random pickup min/maxxers who pick apart who they invite to a group. That doesn't discount the fact (as i see it) that another fighter type could probably perform my function better than myself with the skills and abilities granted to them. Anyhow there's a quick blurb on why mental resist isn't the end all you claim and next time you want to take a shot at someone make sure you completely understand how it works, these aren't EQ1 resists.

a6eaq

10-28-2005, 08:12 PM

Prufrock wrote: <DIV>sigh* No, i'm not level 50, but guess what, the cap is 60 now, so who cares. No, i haven't raided, but 3 guardians in my guild have raided pre and post LU13, and they still can, and still feel effective, and guardian is our only choice for tank. I don't get stunned/stifled for a good portion of the tank. Want to know why? Mental resist. What's that you say? You didn't know you could resist this? Oh, too busy asking for some cheese i guess. And you misquoted me, i correctly spelled whiners as whiners, not "whinners." <HR> </DIV> Well well, we have an expert it seems. Let's just look at that shall we? Last I checked, all of the T5 raids are still T5 and yes! people still take them down. Yes we can be "effective" as you say later on but for someone that has no foundation to base "his" opinion on except "second hand" information, please do the class a favor and just stop. You have nothing to stand on except what you have heard. Haven't you ever heard "Believe nothing you hear and only half of what you see."? So, who gives a rats backside if the level cap is now 60. I am a lvl 55 guardian, and you are...? That is what I thought. When you are your guild's MT come back and talk some more, but until then have fun in your sub T6 status. I will not waste time trying to explain problems to you of which you have no experiences of. I shall post yet again what knightinplaid said: The three most prevalent stifles/stuns we encounter are Vanquish (8ish sec), Stifling Slash (5sec.), and Cut throat (5sec); all of which are trauma-based (crushing and slashing in this case). Mental resistance will not help you in the slightest, however avoidance will, an attribute that brawlers have over warriors and crusaders. For the record, my mental save is 1600. I am in full T6 legendary except my shield which is a SBS. But I am a cheesemiester I guess huh? Prufrock, I am glad you are having fun, I really am, no sarcasm intended, but most of us are not. It has nothing to do with crying or wanting to the best again. Read my posts, I have NEVER wanted to be the best tank, I just want to have fun, and I am not. I do build groups, when I feel it, I solo when I feel like it, and I join groups when I feel it. Comprehension of what was intended by my LFG for hours comment is more than reading and understanding the dictionary meaning of the individual words. If you have not experienced what I was talking about then be happy, you well may not be so happy in the future. Or maybe you will... <<<virtual 20 plat>>> Go buy yourself some real game experiences.

Krooner

10-28-2005, 08:18 PM

<DIV>Prufrock wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't get stunned/stifled for a good portion of the tank. Want to know why? Mental resist. What's that you say? You didn't know you could resist this? Oh, too busy asking for some cheese i guess</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Umm Yeah I call BS on this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My mental resist is over 2000 because of a fabled Helm of reverberation.</DIV> <DIV>I still get stunned frequently you know why.</DIV> <DIV>Because most stuns arnt mental they are physical.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Prufro

10-28-2005, 08:25 PM

<blockquote><hr>Warbird1 wrote:<div>Prufrock wrote:</div> <div> </div> <div>I don't get stunned/stifled for a good portion of the tank. Want to know why? Mental resist. What's that you say? You didn't know you could resist this? Oh, too busy asking for some cheese i guess</div> <div> </div> <div>Umm Yeah I call BS on this.</div> <div> </div> <div>My mental resist is over 2000 because of a fabled Helm of reverberation.</div> <div>I still get stunned frequently you know why.</div> <div>Because most stuns arnt mental they are physical.</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>Ok, i admit that mental resists is probably not the reason i don't get stunned the entire fight. Not sure why i don't then. Yes, i fight and get stunned a lot, but it's never the entire fight, and i always work with the group to handle an excessive amount of stuns. I guess i don't think it's something that needs to be fixed, just a challenge i have to work around. And that might mean teamwork. I'll starting grinding my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off, hit 55 and come back after raiding and still tell you guys you just are not accepting the new challenge of guardians and will gladly post my strategies for dealing with situations. This forum would be a lot more useful if you guys would just figure out how to deal with things you don't like rather than just quit.<div></div>

Krooner

10-28-2005, 08:31 PM

<DIV>Prufrock</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im glad your still having fun with your guardian... grats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For a good many and a growing amount every day the guardian isnt fun anymore. </DIV> <DIV>Im 53 and will only XP when my Dirge alt isnt needed somewhere.</DIV> <DIV>Im not going to grind him because its like beating your head agaisnt a brick wall or watching grass grow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Moorguards attitude says it all... were not sexy... meaning there isnt one thing exciting about the guardian anymore, at least in my opinion and a good many others in this post LU13 realm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Wasuna

10-28-2005, 08:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote: I'll starting grinding my [expletive haxx0red by Raijinn] off, hit 55 and come back after raiding and still tell you guys you just are not accepting the new challenge of guardians and will gladly post my strategies for dealing with situations. This forum would be a lot more useful if you guys would just figure out how to deal with things you don't like rather than just quit. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>1. Why do Mitigation tanks just have to deal with being stunned/stiffled so much when Avoidance tanks have an inherant ability to avoid this more than us? <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Why should we be required to just accept things that we do not like in a game that we pay to play for entertainment?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree though. I have fun with my Guardian but it is only becasue I do not hunt with people that are not friends. In those instances I do not pay attention to the differences in the classes and neither do my group mates. This does not change the fact that the Develoeprs have posted many bits of information that show that Avoidance tanks are superior in every way for 95% or higher of all combat in the game. This my friend is not equality which is the whole point of all these threads. There are many people here and therefore many different perspectives. They all boil down to the fact that Guardians that have played a Guardian for almost 12 months now don't like the new Guardian class.</DIV>

Wasuna

10-28-2005, 08:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Benfynyn wrote: Does any other class have a combat art or spell that, when used, has a monetary cost per use? It's sad when you use an ability and know that it just doubled your mender bill. Krrrath, lvl 58 Guardian of Kithicor <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Not that I know of. I do know that scouts have to buy posions and to even hope to compete with Teir 1 DPS classed they have to use the player made ones that are rare. These can cost a good bit of gold and if they die they lose their posion application. Scouts that use posion and raid can burn through 10-20g of posions alone in a night and have the same repair costs as all other people there. This was added right at the end of beta and there was a huge upraor of why did this one set of people have to pay for their DPS? That also fell on the deaf ears of the developers.

Wasuna

10-28-2005, 09:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raijinn Thunderguard wrote: I thought I would throw you something, here's what's new on test.. Guardian changes: - Tower of Stone should now absorb damage correctly. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I'm sorry. This is a bug fix or a change to make it function as the spell was intended. This was posted in the test update forum on 10/26/05. Providing this as proof that Guardian issues are being looked at is 100% totally unacceptable and frankly an insult to all that have posted here asking for help and that participated in the forums that you stickied. I'm not trying to be overly offensive or even personally attack the moderator. I am going to call a kettle black when I see it though.

Geothe

10-28-2005, 10:11 PM

I agree with Wasuna, Now, if they would of removed that ABSOLUTELY IDIOTIC part of that spell that damages the shield. -Then- I would give sony at least a hair of credit (serioulsy! what the heck is up with that, we have to damage our equipment to use a dang ability, what [Removed for Content] thought that up). But as it is, the Dev response to Guardian Issues has been pathetic. Sorry Raijinn

Pry

10-28-2005, 11:17 PM

Well, LU16a is on test, and the only thing changed for Guardians is one ability. What we can hope for is one ability change every live update, then we can be fixed by LU213! LU213, WE KEEP REACHING FOR THAT RAINBOW!

Krooner

10-28-2005, 11:24 PM

<DIV>Prynn Wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Well, LU16a is on test, and the only thing changed for Guardians is one ability. What we can hope for is one ability change every live update, then we can be fixed by LU213! LU213, WE KEEP REACHING FOR THAT <STRIKE>RAINBOW</STRIKE> CARROT! HEE HAW. Fixed it for Ya...... LOL </DIV>

Pry

10-28-2005, 11:25 PM

Thanks! hehe

Aven Elonis

10-29-2005, 01:24 AM

<DIV>Prufrock,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can only say I get stunned just about every fight. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps bad guys in PoF have more stun/stifle capabilities then bad guys in non-DoF (old) lands.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hell, I get stunned by house cats in MD. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My wisdom is 158 (with imbued ring) giving a mental of 27.2 % vs level 59. (It used to be 90 or so, and I can't say I've seen any drop in number of times that I get stunned.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aven Elonis</DIV> <DIV>59 Guardian, Tempest, Steamfont</DIV>

Jakerf

11-01-2005, 10:03 AM

<DIV>After watching my buddy solo a 46^^^ with his 52 chanter, while I can no longer solo a 40^^^ I decided to play another toon. We no longer tank any better then other fighters and do significantly less damage. While I still get groups fine, I feel like I am getting charity from my guildies rather then making a real contribution. My 51 guard is parked until SOE decides to fix the class.</DIV>

Kasar

11-03-2005, 12:29 PM

<div></div><div></div> Perhaps some hope, <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=76623#M76623" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=76623#M76623 </a> I'll have to watch the forums, as my account'll be done by the time any of that hits if any of it reaches the live servers.<div></div> Message Edited by Kasar on 11-02-2005 11:30 PM