Guardian Concerns

[TunaBoo]

We really are.<BR><BR>Go out and try to kill terrorantula. He is 100% guardian taunt immune. 100%. We can use rescue, and hold for about 30 seconds.. then we have nothing and the raid wiped.<BR><BR>MOBS SHOULD NOT BE IMMUNE TO OUR TAUNTS.<BR><BR>GUARDS SHOULD NOT HOLD AGGRO WORSE THEN EVERY OTHER CLASS.<BR><BR>FREAKING MAKES OUR TAUNTS WORK.<p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:59 AM</span>

[Xibi]

That's sad.   I'm guessing because the mob is still orange at lvl 60, taunts all get resisted?     I know that my taunts hardly ever work on orange con mobs.

[Spike]

<DIV>They changed it he is yellow at level 60 but guards still get resisted.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

He is yellow, and 100% taunt immune. Inflaming defense never hits. Protect doesnt hit. Confront doesnt hit.Unforgiving strike doesn't hit. Goading assault doesnt hit. <div></div>

[Ladicav]

<P></P> <HR> <P>Although guardians are not the best-on-paper tank in every possible situation, they are the most stable and reliable tank in every fight. <STRONG>Tanking is not just avoiding and mitigating damage; it's holding aggro and helping the group recover from a bad situation. Those are the areas where the guardian excels, though they are also the hardest aspects of tanking to quantify or measure.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>The nature of the guardian is perhaps to be the unsung hero</STRONG>, and it's understandable that such a role doesn't sit well with some folks. Especially compared to the way the system worked before, where guardians had a built-in demand over other fighters when it came to tanking. Though that unquestionable dependency may no longer be there, I think it will become more and more clear to other players (especially those who do a lot of DPS) just how useful it is to have a guardian as a tank.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Remember this from Moorgards Unsung Hero post? What rubbish.</P> <P>How much of an agro magnet are you feeling like lately against orange cons or higher. Even Moorgards definition of guardians excelling at agro generation and holding is utter tripe so why should I even believe anything else he writes since it doesn't even come close to the reality of what guardians are facing. I've known about the absolute bastige of a time I have holding agro on anything orange con or higher since the release of LU13. But I am beyond caring now and considering rolling up another class instead of harping on about it.</P> <P>Yes, guardians should have unresistable taunts, in all applications, maybe this is one of many utilities that could be added to give back for everything that was taken away.</P> <P>How unsung hero like are you feeling these days Tuna?</P> <P>Changing the con of the mob isn't a solution, it's the system that is broken, not the mobs.</P>

[TunaBoo]

I am worthless, because they jacked up my class. BALANCE is not making the best class the worst, balance is balance.... I need taunts to function, but they are so subpar I am utterly worthless. <div></div>

[Greyto]

So did the bruiser tank it?

[TunaBoo]

most guildes used a) zerker or b) pally who hacks their 40% hate trasnfer abil to put on all 5 ppl in grp. We don't hack, and out zerker isn't 60 yet.. so no one tanked it. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Greytoon wrote :</DIV> <DIV>So did the bruiser tank it? </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haha nice try. so much brawler hate. FYI he is immune to our taunts too.</DIV> <DIV>Tuna i thought HTL worked on him?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:14 PM</span>

[TunaBoo]

Nope, HTL is resisted 100% also. I maybe landed 1 protect on him all night. Our monk taunts worked.. like 50% hit... but they aren't as geared as me so couldn't tank yet. <div></div>

[Airog]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Brawlers held aggro mainly, (not totally) through DPS? If that is so, brawler could have managed aggro decently, right?

[Gungo]

<DIV>for one our dps is lower in defensive stance especially vs a high yellow con mobs whiel tanking and secondly there is about 10+ classes in game that do mroe dps then us. So if by your account we hold agro primarily by dps then we wouldnt be able to hold agro vs those 10 other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and i have no idea why a monsk taunts would work as a bruiser i got the big ol' red immune sign above his head right before he squashed me.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 PM</span>

[Airog]

<P>For Brawler, <FONT size=6>DPS</FONT> + <FONT size=2>taunts</FONT> = Aggro.</P> <P>For Guards, <FONT size=6>Taunts</FONT> + <FONT size=2>DPS</FONT> = Aggro.</P> <P>Yes? No?</P>

[Gungo]

<P>ok vs terrorantuala taunts don't work</P> <P>so damage alone while tanking in defensive stance won't hold agro. </P> <P>heck even w no one doing dps reactives and wards would produce mroe agro then my dps.</P> <P>lets see if we cna follow this concept </P> <P>bruiser dps < wizard dps</P> <P>wizard = dead</P> <P>Bruiser dps < reactive agro</P> <P>cleric =dead</P> <P>bruiser dps < ward agro</P> <P>shaman = dead</P> <P>bruiser dps + taunts > reactive agro</P> <P>cleric = alive</P> <P>bruiser w/o taunt and just dps vs terrorantula = dead raid</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 PM</span>

[Airog]

<P>On Terrorantula:</P> <P>Brawler, DPS + <FONT size=1>taunts</FONT>,</P> <P>Guardian, <FONT size=1>taunts</FONT> + <FONT size=1>DPS</FONT>.</P> <DIV>Either way, tank loses aggro, but does that look balanced?</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>I guess so because now we both cant tank it</P> <P>but wait there is a third fighter</P> <P>crusader agro siphons off wizard </P> <P>so paladin agro = wizard agro (well 40% really)</P> <P>my question is how does a zerker hold agro</P> <P>zerker do have more dps then bruisers while tanking, but no where near enuff dps to hodl the agro from wiping a raid.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:39 PM</span>

[TunaBoo]

Bruiser and monk taunts land at 60, I guarentee. ask lavastorm.raijen or lavalstorm.slimm. <div></div>

[Airog]

<P>If monk/bruiser taunts land on terra, then:</P> <P>Brawler, DPS + <FONT size=3>Taunts</FONT>.</P> <P>Guardian, <FONT size=1>DPS</FONT> + <FONT size=1>Taunt</FONT>.</P> <DIV>BTW, I am just having fun doing this... =P</DIV>

[Gungo]

Ill show you in game airoliz i get a big ol' red immune sign from my taunts rigth befor ehe kills me. My tautns dont work. Even my lvl 50 master 1 aoe taunt is immune. <DIV>I seriously thought he was immune to just castable taunts so i was hoping HTL would work since it was a proc, But apprantly we need a pally to tank him. Well the multi buff trick is getting fixed. So i got no clue. </DIV> <P>Just read your last post tuna maybe its a lvl thing for me then.</P> <P>So why didn't you have slimm tank it then? </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 PM</span>

[Airog]

I don't doubt you that he resists your taunt Gungo, just was going along with Tuna, saying level 60's didn't get resisted.

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>60 brawlers are NOT immune. like 50% resisted yes.. but guards atr 95-99% resisted. Huge difference. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 AM</span>

[Gungo]

Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ?

[Airog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR> 60 brawlers are NOT immune. like 50% resisted yes.. but guards atr 95-99% resisted.<BR><BR>Huge difference.<BR> <P>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <SPAN class=date_text>10-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:57 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Yeah, I think we both got that now. Thanks.

[Airog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Didn't he say something up a few about his monks and/or bruiser were not geared adequately?

[Gungo]

Naw slimm is geared and he claims he is the best. But that is another story. Full adept 3 soem t6 masters full t6 legendary some t6 fabled and a few highend T6  treasured items. He shoul dbe mor ethen adequte to tank him then. <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 AM</span>

[Airog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Nope, HTL is resisted 100% also.<BR><BR>I maybe landed 1 protect on him all night.<BR><BR>Our monk taunts worked.. like 50% hit... <FONT color=#ffffff size=4>but they aren't as geared as me so couldn't tank yet</FONT>.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ah, here.

[Airog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Naw slimm is geared and he claims he is the best. But that is another story. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hm, got me then...

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:Ok so why didnt slimm tank it ? <div></div><hr></blockquote>They didn't tank it cos Terror hits 3.5k with auto attack with 70% mit so monk would be dead right after tsunami drops and bruiser would die after 3-3:30 min.</span><div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>dunno with the way gaurds tote bruisers as the godlike tank you would think liek you said 3-3:30 min would be enuff time to debuff the mob and get heros armour on the bruiser. So that this super bruiser can tank this raid mob. 3-3.5 min is mroe then enuff time for a good scout(or bard in mt group) to get the HO ac buff to stick along w enuff debuffs that. Mr super bruiser would do fine.</P> <P> But wait are you saying you used tuna to tank because gaurds are better tanks? Seems odd to me you didn't use one of the best equipped bruisers on your server to tank.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:16 AM</span>

[TunaBoo]

Yah when slimms 1 min 30 buff went down... hits were 6-9k range i think. with9k hp, you can't always live with a 6k hit.. a few bad hits and splat. he has 0 t6 fabled armor... master spells don't keep you alive from these things. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>its a 3 min buff not 1 min and he could of also used the close mind / 30 sec mitgation buff stun trick. Even so 3 min + should be enuff tiem to fully debuff the mob have the scout in MT group add ~400 mitgation via th e HO ac buff. A legendary ac t6 potion and slimm would of made back a decnet portion of that ac buff. But i guess what your saying is a 3 min ~900ac buff isn't as cracked up as the gaurrds on this board made it out to be. </P> <P>Like i said before most raids last over 3 mins making the bruiser a poor raid choice, This buff drains 60% of our health in 3 min makig this buff a poor solo choice. Its a nice buff mind you but really only good for tanking named in groups. </P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:30 AM</span>

[TunaBoo]

Nah the buffs great, just not how slimm is set up and we will leave it at that. Bruisers have tants that work.. and do as much dps as anyone. Realize right now bruisers are 100% overpowered, and guardians are 100% underpowered. If the devs take a good long look at it.. expect some nice bruiser nerfs and guardian buffs. If not, then expect the game to consider sucking. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Nah the buffs great, just not how slimm is set up and we will leave it at that.<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For one of the best equipped bruiser on your server thats a pretty funny response. Nice job avoiding the question.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Listen. I'm [Removed for Content] and need fixed. I don't give a crap about what you are saying gaige jr. <div></div>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:Realize right now bruisers are 100% overpowered, and guardians are 100% underpowered <div></div><hr></blockquote>BS</span><div></div>

[Khurghan]

I guess he might not be 'supposed' to be guardian tanked.  I seem to remeber some MG post about not all tanks being able to tank all mobs equally <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>yeah but tuna totally avoided my question</DIV> <DIV>he claimed brawlers are better tanks</DIV> <DIV>he claimed brawlers have tautns that work on terror</DIV> <DIV>he has one of the best equipped bruiser on his serveer in his guild</DIV> <DIV>you would think since he claimed bruisers are overpowered, they would tank the mob better</DIV> <DIV>yet he still was the MT.</DIV> <DIV> Instead of suppling a reason he got defensive called me names and did not answer why didn't a bruiser tank.</DIV> <DIV>one can only presume the best equipped bruiser on his server is still not as good as of a tank as a guard because guards still have more ac which in raids Mitigation>avoid.</DIV> <DIV>Tuna did supply 1 good peice of info. That 3 min ac buff is not as great as guards claim it to be on raids since it wears off before the mob is dead leaving bruisers a very poor tank choice w far less mitigation then guards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw many people are saying guards, templars and assasins need to be fixed but guards dont't need overpowered tanking.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:22 AM</span>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ladicav wrote:<BR> <P></P> <HR> <P>Although guardians are not the best-on-paper tank in every possible situation, they are the most stable and reliable tank in every fight. <STRONG>Tanking is not just avoiding and mitigating damage; it's holding aggro and helping the group recover from a bad situation. Those are the areas where the guardian excels, though they are also the hardest aspects of tanking to quantify or measure.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>The nature of the guardian is perhaps to be the unsung hero</STRONG>, and it's understandable that such a role doesn't sit well with some folks. Especially compared to the way the system worked before, where guardians had a built-in demand over other fighters when it came to tanking. Though that unquestionable dependency may no longer be there, I think it will become more and more clear to other players (especially those who do a lot of DPS) just how useful it is to have a guardian as a tank.</P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Remember this from Moorgards Unsung Hero post? What rubbish.</P> <P>How much of an agro magnet are you feeling like lately against orange cons or higher. Even Moorgards definition of guardians excelling at agro generation and holding is utter tripe so why should I even believe anything else he writes since it doesn't even come close to the reality of what guardians are facing. I've known about the absolute bastige of a time I have holding agro on anything orange con or higher since the release of LU13. But I am beyond caring now and considering rolling up another class instead of harping on about it.</P> <P>Yes, guardians should have unresistable taunts, in all applications, maybe this is one of many utilities that could be added to give back for everything that was taken away.</P> <P>How unsung hero like are you feeling these days Tuna?</P> <P>Changing the con of the mob isn't a solution, it's the system that is broken, not the mobs.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>what is this... 'bad situation' what does this mean /boggle.

[crackwo]

<P>[Removed for Content] Tuna it took you terrorantula to figure all that?  Were you botted to 60 or what? :smileytongue:</P>

[a6eaq]

<P>Gungo wrote:</P> <DIV>yeah but tuna totally avoided my question</DIV> <DIV>he claimed brawlers are better tanks</DIV> <DIV>he claimed brawlers have tautns that work on terror</DIV> <DIV>he has one of the best equipped bruiser on his serveer in his guild</DIV> <DIV>you would think since he claimed bruisers are overpowered, they would tank the mob better</DIV> <DIV>yet he still was the MT.</DIV> <DIV> Instead of suppling a reason he got defensive called me names and did not answer why didn't a bruiser tank.</DIV> <DIV>one can only presume the best equipped bruiser on his server is still not as good as of a tank as a guard because guards still have more ac which in raids Mitigation>avoid.</DIV> <DIV>Tuna did supply 1 good peice of info. That 3 min ac buff is not as great as guards claim it to be on raids since it wears off before the mob is dead leaving bruisers a very poor tank choice w far less mitigation then guards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw many people are saying guards, templars and assasins need to be fixed but guards dont't need overpowered tanking.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>First, you are reading into his not answering your question directly what you want to support your overpwered status as it is currently.  Are you in a postion to know what is going on internally to Tuna's guild?  Where you there to read the chat going around prior to engaging terror?  Maybe Tuna didn't answer you directly to prevent posting something that might cause an internal problem within his guild.  Did you ever think of that?  No, I bet you didn't.  Tuna has a valid point that IMHO has not been addressed on our forums eneough... our taunts are garbage anymore and MG has stated that our are the best, Bull$hit!  We get stunned/stifled/resisted constantly therefore WE CANNOT HOLD AGRO FOR CRAP ANYMORE!  Avoidance tanks avoid being stunned more than plate tanks do so you can hold agro better, period.  Terror is another situation that needs addressed but in general we are in no way as good as you want to make us out to be.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>Second, I agree totally with you Gungo that those classes you mentioned need some attention and i also agree with you that we do not need to be made the only choice anymore for MT in every situation.  SOE dug themselves a retardly deep hole when they came up with the idea of 6 different tanks pre game release.  If we all tank different then there should be 6 different types of mobs and then there should be all 6 different tanks in groups/raids to swap for the different types of mob that are encountered during said xp grinding/raiding.  To me this is stupid but SOE dreamed it up and we are but pawns in this current world known as pajamaquest.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00></FONT> </DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>dunno with the way gaurds tote bruisers as the godlike tank you would think liek you said 3-3:30 min would be enuff time to debuff the mob and get heros armour on the bruiser. So that this super bruiser can tank this raid mob. 3-3.5 min is mroe then enuff time for a good scout(or bard in mt group) to get the HO ac buff to stick along w enuff debuffs that. Mr super bruiser would do fine.</P> <P> But wait are you saying you used tuna to tank because gaurds are better tanks? Seems odd to me you didn't use one of the best equipped bruisers on your server to tank.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>10-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:16 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>its a pride thing... I am sure they didnt want a pajama party</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skharr wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Realize right now bruisers are 100% overpowered, and guardians are 100% underpowered<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>BS<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>oh really so tanking as well if nto better doing 3x our dps healing fd invis none of that is over powered?</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>yeah but tuna totally avoided my question</DIV> <DIV>he claimed brawlers are better tanks</DIV> <DIV>he claimed brawlers have tautns that work on terror</DIV> <DIV>he has one of the best equipped bruiser on his serveer in his guild</DIV> <DIV>you would think since he claimed bruisers are overpowered, they would tank the mob better</DIV> <DIV>yet he still was the MT.</DIV> <DIV> Instead of suppling a reason he got defensive called me names and did not answer why didn't a bruiser tank.</DIV> <DIV>one can only presume the best equipped bruiser on his server is still not as good as of a tank as a guard because guards still have more ac which in raids Mitigation>avoid.</DIV> <DIV>Tuna did supply 1 good peice of info. That 3 min ac buff is not as great as guards claim it to be on raids since it wears off before the mob is dead leaving bruisers a very poor tank choice w far less mitigation then guards.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw many people are saying guards, templars and assasins need to be fixed but guards dont't need overpowered tanking.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>10-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:22 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>oh let me guess we need utility and dps right? (puke)

[a6eaq]

<P>JNewby wrote:</P> <P>oh let me guess we need utility and dps right? (puke) </P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV>Well, we aren't going to be #1 and were never intended to be, but that is about all I can figure they will do for us.  Knowing SOE and the total absence of feedback from them, we most likely won't even get those.  <P>Message Edited by a6eaq on <SPAN class=date_text>10-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:26 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by a6eaq on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>Maybe Tuna didn't answer you directly to prevent posting something that might cause an internal problem within his guild. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#00cc00>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are correct and i did think of this. This is the only other possible answer tuna coudl of had. The fact is though. After LU 13 there is no neccesary classes anymore. <P><SPAN class=time_text>The truth is the only thign broken on Gaurd in my opinion is a weak offensive stance and lack of needed use in protection abilites. Other then that tanking is equal. If you don't believe me ask your self this one question. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG>Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps.</STRONG>  <STRONG>That in itself is balanced</STRONG></SPAN></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:08 PM</span>

[a6eaq]

<P>Gungo wrote:</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><STRONG>Ask yourself after revamp is there any class so important now that you can't do a raid w/o them. That you can't group w/o them. The answer is no any tank can tank any healer can heal. Any caster/scout can dps.</STRONG>  <STRONG>That in itself is balanced</STRONG></SPAN></P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>You may very well be correct about noone being needed for a raid.  I am not in a true raiding guild myself, so I will not comment on this aspect because even though I have experience, I wouldn't call it quantitative experience.  But, the hole idea as i understood this game pre-release was there were no "required" classes.  I always hated that in EQ1 so this made sense to me and I gladly switched to EQ2. </P> <P>As far as balance, I can tell you that I have only had 3 invites since LU13 excluding guild and RL friend invites.  Two of those actually told me that they wanted a tank and the Guardians were the only ones available so they decided to "settle for" a guardian.  If people have to "settle for" a class then I must ask you...</P> <P>Are the classes truly balanced?</P> <P>I could go on for hours about how we are now more unbalanced than we were before, but that would only intice a flame war as everyone knows.  Sure, maybe people are simply trying out more of the other fighter sub-classes now as tanks.  Maybe this is only a trend, I don't know, but the fact is, unless we are with guildies, the life of a guardian is very boring.  Noone wants us in a group and we solo soooooo slowly it is sad.  You may have made out in LU13, but Sony did what they always did in EQ1... they nerfed some classes and bettered others and called it "Balanced".  I know how it feels to be on both sides.  I played a monk in EQ1 and got nerfed/resurrected/nerfed/bettered so that it was fun to play again.  I know how the classes that were broken felt pre-LU13, but just because you made out is no reason to tell those of us that were nerfed that everything is good as is.  It is not.  Sony needs to learn that to balance classes, tweak the weaker ones to attain an equal level.  Nerfing only pisses people off and looses revenue.</P><p>Message Edited by a6eaq on <span class=date_text>10-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:59 PM</span>

[AwesomeSau]

<DIV>I wouldn't mind some utility, but screw DPS. DPS is for non-tanks/healers. However I would like to have some fun with my class considering EVERYONE ELSE gets utility and our main purpose is shared 6 ways now.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Our aggro is fine in xp groups. The only problem is we suck [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript] on raids, especially terrortentula.  Accusing me of being botted to 60 is a pretty weak attack, and uncalled for. On other raid mobs I can hold like 240 dps spamming all my taunts. The problem is, wizards do 600 dps, warlocks do 500-1000 dps, rangers do 700 dps, conjs do 300 dps, conj's pets do 300 dps... So yes, I am peeled by both the conj and their pet, as they both do more dps then I do aggro. <div></div>

[crackwo]

<P>Tuna I was just kidding.....sorry for my bad humor taste <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>I was just being cynical about all this.</P>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Skharr wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> TunaBoo wrote:Realize right now bruisers are 100% overpowered, and guardians are 100% underpowered <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>BS</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>oh really so tanking as well if nto better doing 3x our dps healing fd invis none of that is over powered?</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>If brawlers are so uber, why had <i>every single [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript]ing guild</i> that killed t6 contested a warrior tanking? </span><div></div>

[TunaBoo]

replace warrior with zerker. Because here is why. back at level 10.. if you wanted to tank, you went warrior. if you wanted to dps and fd, you went brawler. If you wanted to be a knight in shining armor, you went crudader. If I could go back in time, I would be a pally or monk. But like most people.. I believe the decriptions, and I went guardian to tank. All the people who loved to tank, and wanted to hardcore farm went guardian. I can find 20 gaurdians on my server who are capable of tanking raid mobs (skill and gear wise)... but not really any paladin or SK or bruiser.. they just created their toons to bash, not to MT raids. <div></div>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:replace warrior with zerker. Because here is why. back at level 10.. if you wanted to tank, you went warrior. if you wanted to dps and fd, you went brawler. If you wanted to be a knight in shining armor, you went crudader. If I could go back in time, I would be a pally or monk. But like most people.. I believe the decriptions, and I went guardian to tank. All the people who loved to tank, and wanted to hardcore farm went guardian. I can find 20 gaurdians on my server who are capable of tanking raid mobs (skill and gear wise)... but not really any paladin or SK or bruiser.. they just created their toons to bash, not to MT raids. <div></div><hr></blockquote>That doesnt answer my question. When brawlers are better tanks, why doesnt anyone use them to tank t6 epics?</span><div></div>

[TunaBoo]

<P>**PLEASE NO PERSONAL ATTACKS**</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Raijinn Thunderguard on <span class=date_text>10-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:05 AM</span>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:A tank is 2 parts. A person, and a toon. The persons who want to tank are all guardian. So the brawlers tend to be the 45 year old death metal construction worker dudes who like to kick stuff, not the people who can tank. So even if the toon is capable of tanking, it doesn't mean the person is. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Yeah yeah, keep talking [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript], everyone who isnt a total idiot knows that guardians are still the best tanks, survivality-wise. I agree that holding agro is a different thing tho.</span><div></div>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Skharr wrote:</P> <P><SPAN>Yeah yeah, keep talking [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript], everyone who isnt a total idiot knows that guardians are still the best tanks, survivality-wise. I agree that holding agro is a different thing tho.<BR></P></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>LOL, I guess they better get working on another revamp then because they failed miserably.  Brawlers are actually SUPPOSE to outtank us.  The reason for that is so that they can be "percieved" as a viable tank.  Wow, that just sounds dandy to a guardian doesn't it.

[Etherium]

There is an easy fix for this that also adds some more ability for the Guardian:  make all of our taunts inflict damage.  It does not have to be much.  From playing with an Enchanter, spells and arts that do no damage get resisted and those that do damage do not.  Add a little DPS and make the taunts less likely to resist in one fell swoop.

[TunaBoo]

Who cares if we can survive if the dps has aggro and not us? <div></div>

[jrezzy]

Agree 100%,  I can deal with nerf somewhat. But we still should be better tanks. Our TAUNT BLOWS

[Shizzirri]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR><BR><BR>The persons who want to tank are all guardian. So the brawlers tend to be the 45 year old death metal construction worker dudes who like to kick stuff, not the people who can tank.<BR><BR>So even if the toon is capable of tanking, it doesn't mean the person is.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>So if I'm a former construction worker who wants to tank am I screwed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>

[TunaBoo]

yah sorry, try again next life <div></div>

[Airog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>yah sorry, try again next life<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Rofl.

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:Who cares if we can survive if the dps has aggro and not us? <div></div><hr></blockquote>The point is, once taunts are fixed, and they better be, guardians will (not like they already arent if you know how to play) be the best tanks. So you can stop talking bs and calling nerfs on other classes.</span><div></div>

[ReviloTX]

<P>I don't know if I would hold my breath on taunts getting "fixed".  It appears to me that someone had a serious agenda to make sure guardians didn't tank all the raid mobs.  I suspect things may be "working as intended".</P> <P>I certainly hope this is not the case (I mean who knows, I'm just speculating), because if it is.. add this crap onto the major nerf bat we got hit with and we won't be seeing too many guardians around anymore.</P>

[Gungo]

<DIV>The persons who want to tank are all guardian. So the brawlers tend to be the 45 year old death metal construction worker dudes who like to kick stuff, not the people who can tank.<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>or the brawler could be a 26 year old Special Agent in NYC.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>There is an easy fix for this that also adds some more ability for the Guardian:  make all of our taunts inflict damage.  It does not have to be much.  From playing with an Enchanter, spells and arts that do no damage get resisted and those that do damage do not.  Add a little DPS and make the taunts less likely to resist in one fell swoop.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>Bad Idea Taunts with Damage can break mezz, root, fear, basically eliminating Crowd control. Making an enchanters life alot worse. HTL is great at keeping agro on a gaurd. Guards need an ability to peel agro the simple fix ad a small hate gain to each gaurd atk. So if one mob does peel off the gaurd just needs to switch targets taunt, atk and switch back to the original target. </FONT></P><SPAN><SPAN class=date_text><FONT color=#756b56>10-22-2005</FONT></SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>04:42 PM</SPAN> </SPAN><!-- /cache:cache --></DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>10-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:03 AM</span>

[a6eaq]

Gungo wrote <DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>Bad Idea Taunts with Damage can break mezz, root, fear, basically eliminating Crowd control. Making an enchanters life alot worse. HTL is great at keeping agro on a gaurd. Guards need an ability to peel agro the simple fix ad a small hate gain to each gaurd atk. So if one mob does peel off the gaurd just needs to switch targets taunt, atk and switch back to the original target. </FONT></P> <HR> </DIV>I agree.  Adding damage to our taunts is a bad idea unless they give us more taunting attacks without removng what we already have.

[TunaBoo]

Idc about mez.. our main taunt stifles which already breaks most forms of mez. But.. damage on taunts isnt the answer ;P   Many other ways to fix our problems. <div></div>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>Bad Idea Taunts with Damage can break mezz, root, fear, basically eliminating Crowd control. Making an enchanters life alot worse. HTL is great at keeping agro on a gaurd. Guards need an ability to peel agro the simple fix ad a small hate gain to each gaurd atk. So if one mob does peel off the gaurd just needs to switch targets taunt, atk and switch back to the original target. </FONT></P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>damage on our taunts isn't a good idea (although i do miss the power drain effect Deafen used to have)...  as of now i've had mez break with the interupt part of confront/deafen...  we already have 2 damage taunt attacks, more is not needed...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>MAKING TAUNTS UNRESISTABLE is whats needed...  along with HtL procing threw wards, towershields getting something, an intervene line changed to something useful...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we're the defensive tanks we taunt when hit (HtL), let the offensive tanks keep their hate procs on attacks...  as it stands now on epics i'm too bust hitting conrfort/protect every time it refreshes (more often than not its once a sec with resists)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wabit</DIV>