Is this balanced?

[Sheridan-Guk]

<DIV>While playing around in Silent City tonight, I saw something unbelieveable. I saw a 56 bruiser soloing level 56 ^^ mobs. I thought, there is no way I could do that! Well, I was wrong. I tried and I succeeded as a 57 guardian. However, there is more here to consider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 56 bruiser had a T5 fabled chest and a T5 fabled weapon (RGF). The rest was treasured T6.</DIV> <DIV>The 57 guardian had a T6 fabled helm and the same weapon. The rest was T6 legendary (Cobalt).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We could both kill the same encounter and end up with about the same power and health afterwards. The bruiser killed 2x as fast (more exp per hour), was a level lower (white con vs. blue con), and had far lesser gear (Treasured vs. Legendary).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>(To view videos, click the link and save locally. Then open from your hard drive.)</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/bruiser_dps.avi" target=_blank>Bruiser Video</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/guardian_dps.avi" target=_blank>Guardian Video</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not agree that this is balanced.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sheridan-Guk on <span class=date_text>10-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:16 PM</span>

[knightinplaid]

At 56 after LU15 with the increased mitigation on cobalt (full set) I could solo the 2^^ heroic lions (also lvl 56) in Silent City. Most left me around 25% hp/mana but some did get my number so it wasn't w/o risk. 3^^^ is still out of the question. I know i'm skirting the point, we can do some heroic and other cool stuff, but not nearly as well as some of the other fighters.

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sheridan-Guk wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>While playing around in Silent City tonight, I saw something unbelieveable. I saw a 56 bruiser soloing level 56 ^^ mobs. I thought, there is no way I could do that! Well, I was wrong. I tried and I succeeded as a 57 guardian. However, there is more here to consider.</div> <div> </div> <div>The 56 bruiser had a T5 fabled chest and a T5 fabled weapon (RGF). The rest was treasured T6.</div> <div>The 57 guardian had a T6 fabled helm and the same weapon. The rest was T6 legendary (Cobalt).</div> <div> </div> <div>We could both kill the same encounter and end up with about the same power and health afterwards. The bruiser killed 2x as fast (more exp per hour), was a level lower (white con vs. blue con), and had far lesser gear (Treasured vs. Legendary).</div> <div> </div> <div><em>(To view videos, click the link and save locally. Then open from your hard drive.)</em></div> <div> </div> <div><a href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/bruiser_dps.avi" target="_blank">Bruiser Video</a></div> <div> </div> <div><a href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/guardian_dps.avi" target="_blank">Guardian Video</a></div> <div> </div> <div>I do not agree that this is balanced.</div><p><font color="#cc33ff">Message Edited by Sheridan-Guk on </font><font color="#cc33ff"><span class="date_text">10-21-2005</span></font><font color="#cc33ff"> </font><font color="#cc33ff"><span class="time_text">05:16 PM</span></font><font color="#cc33ff"> </font></p><hr></blockquote><font color="#cc33ff">I personally don't think all classes should be able to solo equally well.  </font></span><font color="#cc33ff">The game does need *some* variety after all.  Solo ability should certianly be a part of overall class balance however.  i.e. If class A solo's better than class B then class B should out-perform class A in groups.  Similarily, if class A out-performs class B in both solo and most group situations, then class B should out-perform class A by a large margin on raids.  At least, that's how it would work if the classes were </font><font color="#cc33ff"><b><i>balanced</i></b></font><font color="#cc33ff">.</font> <div></div>

[Airog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sheridan-Guk wrote:<BR> <DIV>While playing around in Silent City tonight, I saw something unbelieveable. I saw a 56 bruiser soloing level 56 ^^ mobs. I thought, there is no way I could do that! Well, I was wrong. I tried and I succeeded as a 57 guardian. However, there is more here to consider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 56 bruiser had a T5 fabled chest and a T5 fabled weapon (RGF). The rest was treasured T6.</DIV> <DIV>The 57 guardian had a T6 fabled helm and the same weapon. The rest was T6 legendary (Cobalt).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We could both kill the same encounter and end up with about the same power and health afterwards. The bruiser killed 2x as fast (more exp per hour), was a level lower (white con vs. blue con), and had far lesser gear (Treasured vs. Legendary).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>(To view videos, click the link and save locally. Then open from your hard drive.)</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/bruiser_dps.avi" target=_blank>Bruiser Video</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/guardian_dps.avi" target=_blank>Guardian Video</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not agree that this is balanced.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#cc33ff>Message Edited by Sheridan-Guk on </FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff><SPAN class=date_text>10-21-2005</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff> </FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff><SPAN class=time_text>05:16 PM</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff><BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#cc33ff>I personally don't think all classes should be able to solo equally well.  </FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#cc33ff>The game does need *some* variety after all.  Solo ability should certianly be a part of overall class balance however.  i.e. If class A solo's better than class B then class B should out-perform class A in groups.  Similarily, if class A out-performs class B in both solo and most group situations, then class B should out-perform class A by a large margin on raids.  At least, that's how it would work if the classes were </FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff><B><I>balanced</I></B></FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff>.</FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If SoE wants all fighters to tank equally, then all fighters should solo equally, the game mechanics are obviously broken, and Guardians need some sort of xp bonus for soloing, or other fighters need to be nerfed to solo the same as us.

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>Airoguy wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Corvan wrote:<span> <blockquote> <hr> Sheridan-Guk wrote: <div></div> <div></div> <div>While playing around in Silent City tonight, I saw something unbelieveable. I saw a 56 bruiser soloing level 56 ^^ mobs. I thought, there is no way I could do that! Well, I was wrong. I tried and I succeeded as a 57 guardian. However, there is more here to consider.</div> <div> </div> <div>The 56 bruiser had a T5 fabled chest and a T5 fabled weapon (RGF). The rest was treasured T6.</div> <div>The 57 guardian had a T6 fabled helm and the same weapon. The rest was T6 legendary (Cobalt).</div> <div> </div> <div>We could both kill the same encounter and end up with about the same power and health afterwards. The bruiser killed 2x as fast (more exp per hour), was a level lower (white con vs. blue con), and had far lesser gear (Treasured vs. Legendary).</div> <div> </div> <div><em>(To view videos, click the link and save locally. Then open from your hard drive.)</em></div> <div> </div> <div><a href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/bruiser_dps.avi" target="_blank">Bruiser Video</a></div> <div> </div> <div><a href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/guardian_dps.avi" target="_blank">Guardian Video</a></div> <div> </div> <div>I do not agree that this is balanced.</div> <p><font color="#cc33ff">Message Edited by Sheridan-Guk on </font><font color="#cc33ff"><span class="date_text">10-21-2005</span></font><font color="#cc33ff"> </font><font color="#cc33ff"><span class="time_text">05:16 PM</span></font><font color="#cc33ff"></font></p> <hr> </blockquote><font color="#cc33ff">I personally don't think all classes should be able to solo equally well.  </font></span><font color="#cc33ff">The game does need *some* variety after all.  Solo ability should certianly be a part of overall class balance however.  i.e. If class A solo's better than class B then class B should out-perform class A in groups.  Similarily, if class A out-performs class B in both solo and most group situations, then class B should out-perform class A by a large margin on raids.  At least, that's how it would work if the classes were </font><font color="#cc33ff"><b><i>balanced</i></b></font><font color="#cc33ff">.</font> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>If SoE wants all fighters to tank equally, then all fighters should solo equally, the game mechanics are obviously broken, and Guardians need some sort of xp bonus for soloing, or other fighters need to be nerfed to solo the same as us. <div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#cc33ff">Say Guardians get an exp bonus and you can solo your way to 60 as quickly as any other class.  What then?  Other classes will still have twice your DPS.  Sure, you'll be able to work off any exp debt you happen to wrack up just as fast as any other fighter, but what the heck good is that?  The game does not end at level 60. If they're going to balance the fighter classes, exp modifiers are not the way to do it.   </font></span><div></div>

[ReviloTX]

Those lions/dogs are easy [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript] mobs.  A 53 pally guildmate of mine could solo them in t5 non-fabled gear with adept1's and a few adept 3.

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ReviloTX wrote:<BR>Those lions/dogs are easy [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript] mobs.  A 53 pally guildmate of mine could solo them in t5 non-fabled gear with adept1's and a few adept 3. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>they are easy for non-guardians <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Im a Shadowknight and i can solo them easily as well, given my dps is way higher than the guardians and I can heal myself. you cant call the easy just because a paladin can do it. I wouldnt mind seeing Guardians get more DPS, then that 'Tanking is all we can do' crap will go away <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[EvilIguana9]

<span><blockquote><hr>Corvan wrote: <span> <font color="#cc33ff">I personally don't think all classes should be able to solo equally well.  </font></span><font color="#cc33ff">The game does need *some* variety after all.  Solo ability should certianly be a part of overall class balance however.  i.e. If class A solo's better than class B then class B should out-perform class A in groups.  Similarily, if class A out-performs class B in both solo and most group situations, then class B should out-perform class A by a large margin on raids.  At least, that's how it would work if the classes were </font><font color="#cc33ff"><b><i>balanced</i></b></font><font color="#cc33ff">.</font> <div></div><hr></blockquote> This causes some major balance issues.  Lets assume that the game is balanced this way, so that class A solos great but has no purpose in a group/raid and class B solos slow but is extremely useful to a group/raid.  First off I would have to make some very hard decisions choosing my class.  I like grouping, but my time restrictions are such that realistically I'll probably be doing most of my gaming solo.  Do I want to have fun when I'm solo but be a burden to my friends when I CAN group, or do I want the game to be tedious most of the time so that I'm an asset to my friends when I'm available to them.  Players shouldn't have to make that kind of decision, the game should be fun regardless of which route you take.  Lets say that I decide to choose class A.  I get to 60 by soloing and wear gear that is attainable through quests, the broker, and solo mob drops.  Now since my class is gimped for group content I am stuck.  I am not valuable in a raid or group so I don't get to see that kind of gear.  If you truly wanted to go this route of balance you'd have to have solo mobs that drop legendary and fabled gear at the same rate as raid encounters.  If you want the two paths to advancement to be equal then the rewards must necessarily be equivalent as well.  The only answer that makes everyone happy is to design every class to have meaningful solo, group, and raiding abilities.  That is a difficult but certainly worthwhile goal to strive for.  Granted it will never be numerically perfect for the rules lawyer mathmeticians, but it is conceivably possible to make everyone roughly equivalent in that respect.  However, I don't know if there are 24 unique non overlapping jobs in the game.  My feeling is that some subclasses will fill essentially the same role as others, just achieving it in a slightly different but ultimately equal way.  I view the subclass distinctions as mainly roleplaying/flavor related.  </span><div></div>

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>EvilIguana966 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Corvan wrote: <span> <font color="#cc33ff">I personally don't think all classes should be able to solo equally well.  </font></span><font color="#cc33ff">The game does need *some* variety after all.  Solo ability should certianly be a part of overall class balance however.  i.e. If class A solo's better than class B then class B should out-perform class A in groups.  Similarily, if class A out-performs class B in both solo and most group situations, then class B should out-perform class A by a large margin on raids.  At least, that's how it would work if the classes were </font><font color="#cc33ff"><b><i>balanced</i></b></font><font color="#cc33ff">.</font> <div></div><hr></blockquote> This causes some major balance issues.  Lets assume that the game is balanced this way, so that class A solos great but has no purpose in a group/raid and class B solos slow but is extremely useful to a group/raid.  First off I would have to make some very hard decisions choosing my class.  I like grouping, but my time restrictions are such that realistically I'll probably be doing most of my gaming solo.  Do I want to have fun when I'm solo but be a burden to my friends when I CAN group, or do I want the game to be tedious most of the time so that I'm an asset to my friends when I'm available to them.  Players shouldn't have to make that kind of decision, the game should be fun regardless of which route you take.  Lets say that I decide to choose class A.  I get to 60 by soloing and wear gear that is attainable through quests, the broker, and solo mob drops.  Now since my class is gimped for group content I am stuck.  I am not valuable in a raid or group so I don't get to see that kind of gear.  If you truly wanted to go this route of balance you'd have to have solo mobs that drop legendary and fabled gear at the same rate as raid encounters.  If you want the two paths to advancement to be equal then the rewards must necessarily be equivalent as well.  The only answer that makes everyone happy is to design every class to have meaningful solo, group, and raiding abilities.  That is a difficult but certainly worthwhile goal to strive for.  Granted it will never be numerically perfect for the rules lawyer mathmeticians, but it is conceivably possible to make everyone roughly equivalent in that respect.  However, I don't know if there are 24 unique non overlapping jobs in the game.  My feeling is that some subclasses will fill essentially the same role as others, just achieving it in a slightly different but ultimately equal way.  I view the subclass distinctions as mainly roleplaying/flavor related.  </span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Don't think in black and white absolutes.  I agree it would be silly to design classes that are solo-gods and group/raid [Removed for Content].  The trade-offs should be relatively small, but they should be there.  If a class is clearly better than another when solo'ing, grouping, and when raiding, that other class is far more broken than a class that can shine in one area of the game and not another.  Some have argued that a class that solo's and groups better than another class should be on perfectly equal footing with that class on raids.  I disagree.  That's my definition of imbalance.  A balanced game is about trade-offs.  Those that lose some have to win some, and those that win some have to lose some.</span> <div></div>

[EvilIguana9]

Black and white or dark grey and light grey the comparison still stands.  Players should not have to forfeit fun at one time to guarentee fun at another.  The game should be fun for all classes in all the major play types.  Even if class A and B are closer in skills there will still be a clear preference for B in groups, while A will still have an easier time soloing for XP.  The only time A would get a group is when there were no Bs, and the only time B would want to solo would be when every group already had a B.  Lets also re examine the loot issue which you failed to respond to.  If groups/raids still result in better gear than solo, then B will likely become better geared than A, eliminating A's solo advantage totally because B now made up for that with better gear.  Now B is ahead in both cases. <div></div>

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>EvilIguana966 wrote:Black and white or dark grey and light grey the comparison still stands.  Players should not have to forfeit fun at one time to guarentee fun at another.  The game should be fun for all classes in all the major play types.  Even if class A and B are closer in skills there will still be a clear preference for B in groups, while A will still have an easier time soloing for XP.  The only time A would get a group is when there were no Bs, and the only time B would want to solo would be when every group already had a B.  Lets also re examine the loot issue which you failed to respond to.  If groups/raids still result in better gear than solo, then B will likely become better geared than A, eliminating A's solo advantage totally because B now made up for that with better gear.  Now B is ahead in both cases. <hr></blockquote>Class superiority != Fun.  My class is gimped, but I still have fun playing the game.  If class A, who had it easy solo and in groups, can't suck it up for the part of the game most players never spend a significant ammount of time on then tough luck.  </span><span>The only alternative is to insist that there be no difference in the performance of classes under any conditions.  Even if that were possible, it would result in a bland and boring game.  </span><span>Differences in gear and player skill should overcome inherent class avantages in different roles anyways.  As for items, Grouping and raiding should reward players more than solo'ing.  This is a MMORPG, not DOOM.  I think the game panders to solo play too much as it stands, but that's just my opinion.</span><div></div>

[ReviloTX]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ReviloTX wrote:<BR>Those lions/dogs are easy [expletive haxx0red by Raiscript] mobs.  A 53 pally guildmate of mine could solo them in t5 non-fabled gear with adept1's and a few adept 3. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>they are easy for non-guardians <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Im a Shadowknight and i can solo them easily as well, given my dps is way higher than the guardians and I can heal myself. you cant call the easy just because a paladin can do it. I wouldnt mind seeing Guardians get more DPS, then that 'Tanking is all we can do' crap will go away <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I never said I could do it, I said a paladin could do it.  I wouldn't even think about solo'ing any heroic encounter unless I was at least a few levels above it.  Different story for other fighters, and all just part of this "we're all equal" bull[expletive haxx0red by Raiscript].  My point was that these are not "typical" heroic encounters, they are much easier.</P> <P>As for giving us DPS, well if it comes down to that then so be it, but realize that isn't why we chose our class and won't make most of us satisfied.  If we wanted a fighter that could DPS we would have taken a brawlers or SK 10 months ago.</P>

[Airog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sheridan-Guk wrote:<BR> <DIV>While playing around in Silent City tonight, I saw something unbelieveable. I saw a 56 bruiser soloing level 56 ^^ mobs. I thought, there is no way I could do that! Well, I was wrong. I tried and I succeeded as a 57 guardian. However, there is more here to consider.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The 56 bruiser had a T5 fabled chest and a T5 fabled weapon (RGF). The rest was treasured T6.</DIV> <DIV>The 57 guardian had a T6 fabled helm and the same weapon. The rest was T6 legendary (Cobalt).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We could both kill the same encounter and end up with about the same power and health afterwards. The bruiser killed 2x as fast (more exp per hour), was a level lower (white con vs. blue con), and had far lesser gear (Treasured vs. Legendary).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM>(To view videos, click the link and save locally. Then open from your hard drive.)</EM></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/bruiser_dps.avi" target=_blank>Bruiser Video</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://gold.mylargescale.com/bubba/guardian_dps.avi" target=_blank>Guardian Video</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not agree that this is balanced.</DIV> <P><FONT color=#cc33ff>Message Edited by Sheridan-Guk on </FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff><SPAN class=date_text>10-21-2005</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff> </FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff><SPAN class=time_text>05:16 PM</SPAN></FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff><BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#cc33ff>I personally don't think all classes should be able to solo equally well.  </FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#cc33ff>The game does need *some* variety after all.  Solo ability should certianly be a part of overall class balance however.  i.e. If class A solo's better than class B then class B should out-perform class A in groups.  Similarily, if class A out-performs class B in both solo and most group situations, then class B should out-perform class A by a large margin on raids.  At least, that's how it would work if the classes were </FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff><B><I>balanced</I></B></FONT><FONT color=#cc33ff>.</FONT><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If SoE wants all fighters to tank equally, then all fighters should solo equally, the game mechanics are obviously broken, and Guardians need some sort of xp bonus for soloing, or other fighters need to be nerfed to solo the same as us. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#cc33ff>Say Guardians get an exp bonus and you can solo your way to 60 as quickly as any other class.  What then?  Other classes will still have twice your DPS.  Sure, you'll be able to work off any exp debt you happen to wrack up just as fast as any other fighter, but what the heck good is that?  The game does not end at level 60. If they're going to balance the fighter classes, exp modifiers are not the way to do it.   </FONT><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>There is no way they are ever going to balance soloing, group tanking and raid tanking. Without makeing cookie-cutters, so if all fighters want to be equal raid/group tanks, then best way to balance soloing would be exp modifiers to make time versus exp equal among fighters.