Sense of Purpose as a Guardian

[Burningho]

<DIV>There has been a lot of discussion on these boards that guardians are missing something.  What that "something" is will continue to be debated (utility, more mitigation, better taunts, whatever).  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To me the "something" I am missing is very basic.  I lack a sense of purpose when I play my guardian.  I honestly am not clear what my niche is now.  I'm certain it is there somewhere, and I have just not found it yet.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is not a rant.  I would sincerely appreciate feedback from others about the best role for a guardian now.  I'm not asking what everyone <STRONG>WANTS</STRONG> our role to be, but what our role actually <STRONG>IS</STRONG>.  <BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Fafnir]

<P>To quote my ranger mate, whom I have grouped with since about level 10:</P> <P>"I can't believe how much we [the group, based on how much damage I was taking and agro issues] suck".</P> <P> </P> <P>I don't think there is much of a sense of purpose.  If you gear up to a high quality level, you might do ok, but it's a challenge hardly worth taking.  Bland is fine, if you do your tanking job well, but bland and poor at tanking is disheartening.</P> <P> </P>

[RafaelSmith]

I agree all the arguments about mitigation, etc put aside the biggest thing that the revamp nerfed was my sense of purpose. Since LU13 went live I have yet to be in a situation with my groupmates where I was glad/proud to be a Guardian...if anything I was always wishing I was something else. <div></div>

[Burningho]

<P>One other thing.  If this is how other fighter classes felt pre-LU#13, then I now better understand where they were coming from.  I would hope that they can also understand where we are coming from now that "the shoe is on the other foot".  </P> <P>It is no fun to not have a clear reason for being.  </P>

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>our utlility is taunts, too bad soe failed to make the taunts powerful enough and at the same time added taunt resistance to mobs which is stuuuuuppidddd. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>every one of our taunts should be rescue, that is the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] truth. everyone else has dps/ heals etc..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and you can tell our utility is taunts because of the sad pathetic spell called maddening defense which is a failure even on master 2.</DIV>

[RafaelSmith]

According to Moorgard our utility is "protection" buffs and HP/AC group buffs....which is 100% contradictory to even having taunts or being a MT. If my job is to intercept other people's DMG or to buff their ability to take DMG  why give me taunts? <div></div>

[MainFra]

Moorgard should just be fired. He is the true problem.

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>hp/ac buffs? i thoguht that was the job of a shaman or templar, yah i agree what are all our taunts for , dont guardians get the strongest taunts?</DIV>

[Burningho]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<BR>According to Moorgard our utility is "protection" buffs and HP/AC group buffs....which is 100% contradictory to even having taunts or being a MT.<BR><BR>If my job is to intercept other people's DMG or to buff their ability to take DMG  why give me taunts?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So my role in a group/raid is to intercept some of the damage of the MT and to buff his/her ability to take damage?  Hmmmm.  </P> <P>Wouldn't it make more sense then to give us a ward instead of an intercept?</P>

[Dart]

<DIV><FONT face=Arial> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Ya I hear what the original poster is saying..... I’m surprised no one is flaming him, where is gaige!</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Anyhow I kind of saw this coming, pre beta. You see the one thing that the guardian really had, was Defense. Now any tank class, properly buffed can achieve what a guardian can. (Sure I agree it is good for the game, all 'tanks' should be able to tank right? /cackle, I’m not even going to comment on that any further).</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>So where does that leave the Guardian now, buff bot, protect, and well um and uh tank, and that’s really it. Don’t talk about utility, protect is (one) line. Many classes have multiple lines of utility. Im not even going to compare utility cross classes.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Bottom line, most every role in this game stacks except one thing, tanking. Now we have offensive stances, and I can’t comment on how effective these are, because I haven’t even finished respec’ing. But you know what? I didn’t roll a guardian so I could have an offensive stance, or DPS; I rolled him so I could be master at defense, and defend my group as a Tank. Now there is no master of defense (Maybe rightfully so? I don’t care SOE facked the pooch when they made the guardian, a master of defense), </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Now we just have vanilla’d down tank classes, with disparity in soloing.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>When DOF launched, I logged in as Darton, My Guardian, goofed around a little, and was astounded at how boring it was. (Yes I realize I haven’t given the LU13 a full chance with my guardian, but I pay to play to have ‘fun’. Now my 50th Guardian is collecting dust, and has been for a couple months while I have been having a great O’l time with my Warlock.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Let me tell you my experience as a caster after playing a Tank to 50. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Post LU13 agro is a new ball game; every tank class that I have played with had both good and bad folks behind the toon, so it seemed like a wash, didn’t matter what class was tanking. The one thing that was interestingly similar across the board, was that Guardians seem to have a harder time holding agro off of me (as a warlock), more so than any of the other tank classes, /ponder I thought Guardians had the most Taunt’s. This could merely be perception (and haven’t had a chance to group with what I consider a solid tanking guardian?).</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Paly’s have an ability to absorb hate for me as a group member (Amends), something like 25% of the hate I generate is absorbed and tacked on to the Paly’s hate. The guardian’s drops the hate off the person with their similar line but doesn’t get the added hate, it simply reduces it for the group member. Monks get Taunt proc, along with DPS and regular taunts for agro. I hope I just had bad luck with the Guards Ive grouped with.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>One thing is true……. change…… and it will happen. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Look to be the red headed step child for few months, at which time, hopefully some spice will be thrown at the Guardian class.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>I want to say so much more, but Ill narrow it down, I would LOVE to see the guards get some love.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2></FONT></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Kudo’s to all of you playing guards, much respect from your (maybe) not so friendly Warlock.</FONT></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV>

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>i think its safe to say we have no utility and soe scerwed up, just like they said we were getting tradskill bonus xp, no we were not!!</DIV>

[MainFra]

<P>Why stick with SOE?</P> <P>I dont' play the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] game at all now. And I save my 32 bucks a month for a great dinner once a while.</P> <P>And I don't have headaches anymore.</P>

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>how's the swg revamp going, that game any good?</DIV>

[Burningho]

<DIV>Ok, so forget what we used to be.  What are we now?</DIV> <UL> <LI>We can tank about the same as all the other fighters </LI> <LI>Our aggro control is not the best, and arguably the worst of all fighters </LI> <LI>We can do some dps in an offensive stance but very little in a defensive stance </LI> <LI>Our buffs increase the defense of the entire group</LI> <LI>Our "utility" allows us to intercept damage and buff the avoidance of another player (which makes our utility useless if we are MT and doing our jobs correctly)</LI></UL> <DIV>Did I miss anything? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, to me that sure sounds like guardians are supposed to be off-tanks or MA.  It seems like we are best suited to buff the MT, take some of their damage from time-to-time, and tank adds.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, forget what we <STRONG>want</STRONG> the class to be.  Based on our current abilities, does that seem like the role the class is <STRONG>supposed</STRONG> to fill?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Krooner]

Burning hope Wrote: <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, so forget what we used to be.  What are we now?</DIV> <UL> <LI>We can tank about the same as all the other fighters <LI>Our aggro control is not the best, and arguably the worst of all fighters <LI>We can do some dps in an offensive stance but very little in a defensive stance <LI>Our buffs increase the defense of the entire group <FONT color=#ff0066><U>(As long as the mob is blue or green non heroic our buffs will matter)</U></FONT> <LI>Our "utility" allows us to intercept damage and buff the avoidance of another player (which makes our utility useless if we are MT and doing our jobs correctly)</LI></UL> <P>There you go its fixed</P>

[Prufro]

<span><blockquote><hr>Burninghope wrote:<div>Ok, so forget what we used to be.  What are we now?</div> <ul> <li>We can tank about the same as all the other fighters </li> <li>Our aggro control is not the best, and arguably the worst of all fighters </li> <li>We can do some dps in an offensive stance but very little in a defensive stance </li> <li>Our buffs increase the defense of the entire group</li> <li>Our "utility" allows us to intercept damage and buff the avoidance of another player (which makes our utility useless if we are MT and doing our jobs correctly)</li></ul> <div>Did I miss anything? </div> <div> </div> <div>Well, to me that sure sounds like guardians are supposed to be off-tanks or MA.  It seems like we are best suited to buff the MT, take some of their damage from time-to-time, and tank adds.  </div> <div> </div> <div>Again, forget what we <strong>want</strong> the class to be.  Based on our current abilities, does that seem like the role the class is <strong>supposed</strong> to fill?  </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>While it may be the role guardian was supposed to fill ever since launch, or the role guardian is supposed to fill now, it's not the role guardian has been since launch. Imagine if you went and purchased a lexus, drove it for 9 months and then the dealer replaced it with an accord because they felt like it.</span><div></div>

[Burningho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prufrock wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>While it may be the role guardian was supposed to fill ever since launch, or the role guardian is supposed to fill now, it's not the role guardian has been since launch.<BR><BR>Imagine if you went and purchased a lexus, drove it for 9 months and then the dealer replaced it with an accord because they felt like it.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree with you 100%.  I rolled a guardian to be MT (period).  It just doesn't seem like that is what I have now.  </P> <P>What do you think our role is now?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious.  I'm not driving a Lexus anymore, so what the heck am I driving (to use your analogy)?</P>

[Burningho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Darton wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT face=Arial> <P><SPAN><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>I would LOVE to see the guards get some love.</FONT></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Me too.  I want so badly to fall in love with my guardian again.  <BR>

[Frostborne]

<span><blockquote><hr>Burninghope wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Prufrock wrote:<span>While it may be the role guardian was supposed to fill ever since launch, or the role guardian is supposed to fill now, it's not the role guardian has been since launch.Imagine if you went and purchased a lexus, drove it for 9 months and then the dealer replaced it with an accord because they felt like it.</span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>I agree with you 100%.  I rolled a guardian to be MT (period).  It just doesn't seem like that is what I have now.  </p> <p>What do you think our role is now?  I'm not being sarcastic, I'm being serious.  I'm not driving a Lexus anymore, so what the heck am I driving (to use your analogy)?</p><hr></blockquote> Yah, I rolled a necromancer and got him to 20 over the weekend, just to see what I could do that my Guardian couldn't, and well....it was amazing.  I was tanking blue icon group mobs, no sweat, which always held agro, something my guardian couldn't even dream to do and stay alive more than 2 seconds.  It was almost like I was living vicariously through my pet prettending to be a guardian.   The nice thing is that you could grab a couple hex dolls, one to debuff the mitigation for an offensive pet, and another to debuff the magic mitigation for a defensive pet, depending on which of you is going to be doing the damage.  The damage dealing and general group mitigation buffs seemed to be pretty nice as well.  The irony that a mage class tanks better than a plate tank Guardian was very apparent.</span><div></div>

[MyTFlyGuy]

/p agree with OP.

[Armeng]

Since revamp I have grouped with guardian x2, bezerker x1 pally x1 and monk x1 sk x1 observations are with the guardian the groups had to dial back a little dps, but we had to dial it back with the zerker also (dang warloks need plate they got the aggro advantage now lol) both took damage good monk  did ok with aggro did ok with taking damage sk did ok with damage taken, little dps dialback pally......had no aggro problems at all, took damage as good as other plate tanks I noticed little difference in their health bars noe did i see them in anything but ebon so far (rare of monk too) I did notice a huge advantage to pallys for aggro(guessing its that transfer aggro buff) Me if putting together a group i still look for guardians (yes mine is retired but I still look out for others as much as possible) but I have noticed with other tanks you can kill faster =/ I hope they give guardians something other than "protection" buffs, I'd rather see them not loose aggro and have to cast some lame protection buff I havent played the guardian since the revamp, the ranger is much easier on the wrists to play, nor do i have any desire to after reading the changes made. 51 ranger Con'Dion <div></div>

[Burningho]

<DIV>I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that my guardian is not intended by SOE to be a main tank.  When I take an objective look at how things are working, it seems pretty obvious that we are now meant to play a support role.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While I am still not quite sure what that support role really is, it is crystal clear that my niche is not MT.  Maybe there will be a situation here or there that a guardian is the best choice for MT because of our fire damage resistance, but I'm not seeing it atm.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, I think I'm going to go out and find myself a fabled 2 hand weapon or some proc'ing dual wield weapons to see if I can increase my dps.  At least then I will feel more useful.  :smileymad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is totally jacked up IMHO.  </DIV>

[Vandame]

<div></div><p>The protection line for guardians falls in perfectly with what a guardian is supposed to do.<span>  </span>I don’t see much if any need to change it.<span>  </span>Love the fact that it’s an instant cast as it now is useful to use in combat to protect another party member that has inadvertently taken agro.<span>  </span>I do not believe our utility is what wrong with the class.<span>  </span>True it’s rather limited in scope but what seems to be lacking is our ability to tank and hold agro.<span>  </span>I think the biggest fix that needs to be done is increasing our taunt or decrease the recast time to match the dps/taunt ability of the other fighters.<span>  </span>Then give us back the ac and 15% chance to block on our shields.<span>  </span>This will once again give us guardians a purpose in raids and full groups.<span>  </span>Right now the only purpose is as a support class offering up our buffs yet compared to the priest class they are pathetic, which they should be as we are a fighter.<span>  </span>But if that’s what our role is being reduced to being a pathetic buff with limited dps when no other player is around to fill out the raid then truly were are we to do?<span>  </span></p><p>I don’t think any of the other fighters where this broken.<span>  </span>Having spent a fair amount leading raids I can say that even though a guardian was always the MT.<span>  </span>We still pulled form the other fighter classes as they had a purpose to fill on the raid.<span>  </span>Paladins besides being a possible off tank where battle rez’ers.<span>  </span>Monks besides the great dps where used to keep the epic stifled.<span>  </span>Brawlers and shadow knights added their own specialty.<span>  </span>Each group had one or two fighters in it as there was a need for them.<span>  </span>Beyond a raid or two there was no need for more then one guardian in the whole raid and often times guardians where turned away as the MT role was filled at the time of raid creation.<span>  </span>This was the sol role for guardians and I for one was content with our small niche.<span>  </span>In groups I wished before LU13 that our protection line was fixed as it was unusable in its current state so guardians left it alone for the most part and played a plain mitigation tank with no specialty beyond their ability to absorb damage.</p><p>SOE has fixed to a degree a guardians solo experience as I have been pleased to find that I can take down blue and white con mobs in dof with relative speed, instead of before hitting attack and walking away for half an hour.<span>  </span>In single groups the protection line shines and is a truly wonderful thing to use.<span>  </span>If only our taunts would increase a bit then I think we would easily come into par with the other fighters.<span>  </span>It will require small modifications but I am sure would be easy to calculate and adjust.<span>  </span>Our lower dps is offset by our ability to protect vital team members in the case things get a bit hairy which is our defining role in groups vs. other fighters.<span>  </span>So we give up DPS to offer an added layer of safety to group adventures.<span>  </span></p><p>But where I for one truly feel the pain of the patch is in raids.<span>  </span>What purpose do I have in a raid?<span>  </span>What skills do I bring to a raid that cannot be better performed by other classes?<span>  </span>It has been shown that all the other fighters hold agro better then Guardians.<span>  </span>Each class on top of holding better agro also had a secondary function they where able to perform in a raid from, rezing, dotting, de buffing to huge amounts of dps.<span>  </span>As of this moment there is zero need for a guardian to go on a raid.<span>   </span>For the moment the only reason why guardians are still involved in any raids is the personality of the individual as well as the armor of the guardian being better for the moment simply because many guilds pick a few MT’s to outfit first to better they odds at success.<span>  </span>But this is a temporary advantage at best and the up and coming guardians will all but be excluded from raids in less there is a shortage of people attending, or the personality is such that their friends simply want to include them.</p><div></div>

[Burningho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Vandamear wrote:<BR> <P>In single groups the protection line shines and is a truly wonderful thing to use.<SPAN>  </SPAN></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Can you give some more details on how you are using the protection line?  Are you tanking and using it on other group members when you loose aggro?  Or is someone else tanking and you are using it on them to take some of the damage?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Burninghope on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:04 PM</span>

[Vandame]

<div></div><p>There are two cases I have used it for.  One I am letting a wizard or scout be the MT and then just put the three protection spells up on them and sit back with my two handed EBBC while chatting on Team speak.  I hope this doesn't last but for now it works well with in the system. The other way that it works well is when I am doing the traditional dungeon crawl and I am in need of saving the templar from certain doom because they buffed or a reactive proc pulled the mob off me while I was pulling.   Our taunts still suck so I just often times opt for option 1 given its increase xp, once I convince the scout or wizard to come out and play.  The only time I could see using these spells on another tank is if the healer was oop my rescue was down, the mob was less then a bubble left and I had the possibility of allowing the MT to stay afloat.<span>  </span>Other wise the mitigation from our protection line of spells is pathetic at best and a sure way to quickly drain any healer when cased on another fighter class.<span>  </span>So in other words our protection spells work great on med and light armor wears while they enjoy very high agility.<span>  </span>Can come in handy when your templar/inquisitor comes under fire to keep them up long enough hopefully to redraw agro when rescue is down.<span>  </span></p><div></div>