Utility for Guardians

[Kashyr]

<DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#000000> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>OK, I’ve read a lot of posts and to me, it seems like the Guardians are lacking something.<SPAN>  </SPAN>People just can’t seem to agree on what that something is.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Maybe it’s because there is no class-defining feature of being a Guardian.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Each other class can point at some ethos/ability/stereotype and say ‘that is what my class embodies’.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Guardians just seem to be the faceless meat shields.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>With this lack of definition in mind, I did some thinking.<SPAN>  </SPAN>What I came up with was that the whole concept of Guardians should be – to guard.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Yes I know, this requires no great leap in logic, but it appears to be the most obvious answer.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Now, I am not talking about the whole ‘I stand in front of the mobs and take the hits’ type of guarding.<SPAN>  </SPAN>What I am talking about is a line of spells that increases the Guardians, <I>or anyone else’s</I>, ability to take the hits.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This would give the Guardians the defensive edge some have been calling for, whilst giving them something to bring to the party when not the MT.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Before I get flamed to all hell, sit back and think about it for a minute.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Some Guardians are calling for a defensive edge over other tanks.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Others are calling for utility when grouping.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This simple solution (and I am probably not the first to come up with it) should keep both factions happy.<SPAN>  </SPAN>In the MT roll, this line of spells will give the Guardian the defensive ‘edge’ some have been calling for.<SPAN>  </SPAN>When not MT, this line of spells will give the Guardian a useful set of abilities to bring to the group, ie enhancing the capabilities of the MT.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>With that in mind, the CAs I think would be a handy addition would be along the lines of:</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Duration:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Toggle on/off (similar to HtL), maybe a Concentration slot</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Effect:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Increases mitigation of target by x%.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The exact percentage would increase as the spell is upgraded.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Reasoning:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Basically, the Guardian is using his knowledge to enhance the capabilities of whoever is MT.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Duration: </SPAN></B><SPAN>1 minute, 3 minutes max</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Effect:</SPAN></B><SPAN><SPAN>  </SPAN>Increase avoidance of target by x%.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The exact percentage would increase as the spell is upgraded.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Reasoning:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Basically, the Guardian is using his shield to protect the MT, or better utilising it to protect himself.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Duration:</SPAN></B><SPAN> 10 seconds, 30 seconds max.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Recast timer:</SPAN></B><SPAN> 30 minutes, 15 minutes minimum</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Effect:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Gives the target 80% Avoidance and 80% Mitigation.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN>Reasoning:</SPAN></B><SPAN> Consider this the Guardian calling upon the tradition of their class to offer the ultimate protection to the target of the spell.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This would be less effective in raids where the ability to buff is greatest, but in small groups would provide an excellent emergency means of survival.</SPAN></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>CAs along these lines would give Guardians some utility to make them more attractive to groups, as well as giving them a defensive edge.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Any thoughts/comments appreciated, but please keep flaming to a minimum.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I am trying to come up with some constructive ideas that would make Guardians more desirable in exp groups.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>And before anyone flames saying ‘OMGGuardiansarealreadyover-poweredandthiswouldmakethemgodlikeagainWTFPWNED’, think what these abilities would do to another fighter who is MT with the Guardian buffing THEM.</FONT></SPAN></P></FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>One question:  Are you a guardian?</P> <P> </P> <P>Most guardians agree we need more mitigation and and our taunts improved.</P> <P>Most non-guardians want to give us utility.</P> <P> </P> <P>There have been a number of good suggestions in recent days.  IMO this is not one of them.</P> <P>Adding the shield factor of a shield to mitigation is a great idea!  It solves the Mitigation issues of the plate classes and also makes a tower shield a little better than a kite shield.</P>

[Gladesman]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Raahl: I am one of the guardians that would like to see our DPS and utility improved, because I know that asking for better tanking abilities is just not going to happen as SOE plain and simply wants all fighters to be tanks. I do not agree with this view, but it's the way it is and if it's unacceptable to me I'll just have to quit playing, I suppose.. and that is something I do not want to do. So, I would rather see my class improved on other aspects than constantly focusing on the "tanking" part alone. I, by the way, still believe that guardians are GOOD tanks and I believe we still have an advantage over other fighters when it comes to tanking BIG mobs.. not much, but some. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>My suggestions for new arts / utility:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Group: If guardians are still supposed to be "protectors" I suggest giving us some kind of (group) damage shield buff - kind of like a reactive heal or armor feedback. This can either be on a timer or set to a max amount of damage: a mob hits me or my party member for 400 points of damage? the dmg shield will hit him back for 400 and so on until the buff expires or until the max amount of damage has been done. Would even be better if this has an increase threat aspect as well, but I can live without that put in <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> </FONT> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Why not change the unyielding will spell and make it a regular self-heal on a 5 minute timer or something? Really, I'm not asking for something like the bruisers self heal with a refresh timer of a minute, but just something that may save my life (as we don't have an escape / FD / root + invis or such so we have to start yelling while we're at 15-20% health to make it out alive) </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>A long range pull skill (anchor reinvented?) that could avoid soical aggro would really work wonders </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Please give us one of the following: a real mezz or stun or pacify or fear spell that will last longer than 5 seconds /escape - even if it only teleports me 30 meters away I'd be happy / invis - almost every class has a solo invis, why don't we? / health to power or similar / feign death / safe-fall / rezzing ability / etc.etc. Or something else that would be "nifty" or "come in handy" in a group OR solo. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>We have a few spells that root us in place (for really no good reason, but that's besides the point), Maddening Defense being the major one and that's one we're apparently really supposed to be using. Would it maybe be possible to add a "resist knock-back" component to this? Right now I don't like to use it because wherever I go mobs seem to have this knock-back spell (I'd also love to have it!!) and they knock me off things or through walls and such and when they do I am still magically rooted so I have to constantly toggle this spell and as I'm out of range when I'm knocked away having it on is kind of useless now anyway (as it only generates hate when I'm getting hit). I don't expect to have a 100% resistance, but 50% would already be helpful!</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Solo (but could be used in group as well): A spell that will increase our defense massively (+30 or so?) temporarily (30 sec) at no cost of offensive/other skills, just to have a chance at killing a mob. Similar to Commanding presence, but just a pure defense emergency buff. Can be on a 10 minute refresh timer, as far as I'm concerned. Side note: maybe Im missing the point, but why do we have both Anchor and Wall of Brawn? Yes, I may survive a little longer, but with no DPS left and the slow I can't get out and I can't get the mob dead either. I realise these spells are maybe only useful for groups, but they still seem to have too much of a negative impact to outweigh the benefit of increased defensive skills? </FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I *like* some of the arts suggested in the OP; especially the ultimate protection spell (see my last suggestion as well)!! This would truly come in handy when solo-ing, as right now, our defensive short duration buffs either root or slow us, so the effect is totally usless when you're the only one trying to kill a mob <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Also, in terms of damage.. aside from having our DPS (in offensive stance) tuned up to be about 70-90% of a monk or bruisers DPS (and to be honest, I would already be over the moon with 75%!!), I would like to see us get an art similar to devastation fist that will only work on solo encounters and a regular within the encounter AOE that has a stun/stifle effect added to it. </FONT></P>

[Raahl]

Gladesman you are in the minority.  Most guardians do not care about DPS or Utility.  If we wanted that we would have played a different class.

[Gungo]

<P>basically glade raahl is saying you and the other guards opinion in that 2 page thread i linked doesnt matter, and that raahl's view is obviously the accepted view. he continuily denies or overlooks every post by guards asking for the same thing amking thier class fun to play. Some people actually enjoy the journey and don't focus at the end goal as long as the end goal is the same. Guards want to be the best tanks. which is fine as long as the difference is not as massive as it was prerevamp, but alot of gaurds are complaing that there class is boring and no fun. Adding mitigation will nto solve all the guards issues, but lowering avodiance on all but HA will. For few reasons </P> <P>1 alot of mobs in DoF don't even consider trauma mititgation. </P> <P>2 mtigation is capped and eventaully all fighters wil reach the cap and we will only hear this issue again in 2 months when a full fabled brawler reachs the cap and becomes a better tank again.</P> <P>3 killing a mob solo and/or group is not fun if it take the gaurd 10 min and he is stunned half the time. </P> <P>4 alot of guards don't consider it fun to play when u just stand there w autoatk on staring at your taunt button waiting for it to repop.</P> <P>5 not only brawlers but scouts avoid dam better the gaurds</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:23 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:25 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>basically glade raahl is saying you and the other guards opinion in that 2 page thread i linked doesnt matter, and that raahl's view is obviously the accepted view. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't pretend to speak for you, do not pretend to speak for me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Glade, I'm saying we all knew what we were signing up for in the beginning.  A Tank with little DPS and little Utility.  We understood that and accepted it because we wanted to tank.   Now Sony has taken that away, we just want some of it back.  Utility or DPS will not fix our class, sure they might make some happier.  But the heart of the problem is our tanking ability has been severely damaged and needs fixed.    If I sounded dismissive, I'm sorry.  People like Gungo have frayed my nerves and I get short sometimes.  I just want the Guardian class to be what it was suppose to be from the beginning, a tank.  Once that is fixed Sony can address any other issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gungo please take your divide and conquer approach and leave.   At the slightest hint that the developers are listening to us guardians on what problems we are having with our class, a mob of non-guardians come in here spreading lies and propoganda.  When they have little to no idea, nor do they care, what problems our class has.    90% of the time the non-guardians flame and troll each post making it difficult for anyone to remember the original topic/problem. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There have been serveral class types that have come here and stating that we are broken and cannot tank as well as other tank classes.  Healers are the biggest group, besides us guardians.  Paladin's and Beserkers have also stated this.   And as a guardian I thank them.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>But yet you pretend to speak for every gaurdian on this board.</DIV> <DIV> and i just want my class to be what is was in the beginning as well ... a tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>O and please qoute my lies.. i would love to see you try to defend that misleading statement.</DIV> <DIV>and there is plenty of posts here as well from healers and other classes saying guards tank as well or better.. would you like me to qoute them?</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Just because you ignore them doesn't mean they don't exsist.</SPAN></P> <P>The fact is raahl you ignore every opinion that doesnt support your "vision". Where i have actually looked and considered ideas brought up by people on this board. when people bring up an idea i either support or deny those claims w facts. Your statements only consist of "feelings" and how you want to be supreme. Someone mentions utility .,, you screma i don;t wan tutility i want mititgation. Someone said well mobs in DoF don't even mitigate vs ac.. you say i want mititgation.. someone said well when guards cap out mtiigation and have no room for improvemnt and brawlers catch up again they will be the best tank.. you say i want mitgation. when soemone comes here and says well i want utility so i can solo  better and not take 10 min to kill soemthing or since the best tank is not always needed in groups i would like to have somethign else to offer other then slowing down the xp grind.. you say I guards dont want  utility we want Mitigation. Do you see the problem here? You don't actually read or understand other people's point of view?</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:36 AM</span>

[Krooner]

<P>Sorry Man but I dont want a spell line that in this Post LU13 world will be asking me to Buff the munk so his mit or defense is even better so he can tank.  </P> <P>Yeah Yeah right.. thats not going to happen suuuure.  </P> <P>I dont want my class to become just another buff bot.  </P> <P>If your going to give us that skill make it to where it is normal speed on us. On an ally it slows them and drops their dps.  Any way you slice it its just like the SK's line of AC spells.  Same rehashed watered down spell.</P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>But yet you pretend to speak for every gaurdian on this board.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Nope, I let them speak for themselves.  And by reading and looking at there posts.</P> <P>#1 guardians are no longer fun to play.</P> <P>#2 we don't mitigate enough and/or mitigation is broken.</P> <P>#3 our taunts need increased/upgraded.  Remove root from HTL</P> <P>#4 playing my guardian is boring and I want some utility.</P> <P>#5 I want more DPS.</P> <P>#6 I want more avoidance.</P> <P> </P> <P>While I don't agree with some of these, I do see their posts.  </P> <P> </P>

[Gladesman]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>guys, guys, guys... take it easy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Raahl: Yes, the guardian tanking abilities are currently not up to par and should be fixed. But what happens when they're fixed and we are once again the best tanks?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Brawlers and crusaders will still be able to tank quite well. And on top of these tanking skills they get DPS and utility.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>This makes my guardian not a very favourable pick for the tank spot in an exp group, nor does it make me able to solo any better. </FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Think about the bigger picture and you'll see what I mean.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><U>The fact that all fighters are now tanks is what nerfed the guardian class big time</U>, not this bug that makes it so that guards are the worst tanks at the moment. I really don't think that this was the intention from SOE.</FONT></DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gladesman wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>guys, guys, guys... take it easy.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Raahl: Yes, the guardian tanking abilities are currently not up to par and should be fixed. But what happens when they're fixed and we are once again the best tanks?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Brawlers and crusaders will still be able to tank quite well. And on top of these tanking skills they get DPS and utility.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>This makes my guardian not a very favourable pick for the tank spot in an exp group, nor does it make me able to solo any better. </FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Think about the bigger picture and you'll see what I mean.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><U>The fact that all fighters are now tanks is what nerfed the guardian class big time</U>, not this bug that makes it so that guards are the worst tanks at the moment. I really don't think that this was the intention from SOE.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks, Gladesman</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just don't want the tanking abilities fix to be lost in the other issues.  I tend to pick the biggest issue and run with it untill it's fixed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though I disagree that making all fighters tanks nerfed us.  What nerfed us was the combination of  the avoidance/mitigation decrease.   The avoidance decrease I understood and accepted.    But that in combination with the mitigation decrease killed our tanking ability.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV>The fact is raahl you ignore every opinion that doesnt support your "vision". Where i have actually looked and considered ideas brought up by people on this board. when people bring up an idea i either support or deny those claims w facts. Your statements only consist of "feelings" and how you want to be supreme.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Gaurds mentions utility .,, you scream i don;t want utility i want mititgation.  when a gaurdian said well mobs in DoF don't even mitigate vs ac.. you say i want mititgation.. gaurds say well when guards cap out mtiigation and have no room for improvement and brawlers catch up again they will be the best tank.. you say i want mitgation. when soemone comes here and says well i want utility so i can solo  better and not take 10 min to kill soemthing or since the best tank is not always needed in groups i would like to have somethign else to offer other then slowing down the xp grind.. you say I dont want  utility I want Mitigation. when someone comes and says scouts have higher avoidance then guards ... you say i want mitgation. That has been your only argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you see the problem here? You don't actually read or understand other people's point of view?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edited actually after reading your last post it seems you may be changing your stance at least you have admitted now that other people's opinions have merit.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:47 AM</span>

[KiseroHT]

im going to weigh in; i think a GROUP protect spell and our tower shields giving us a 10-15% extra mit bonus would make alot of sense. also if rescue could be turned back to even 5 mins would sure help. this would provide a function when not chosen for mt position with the guardian being around with their tower shields GUARDING the group. this to me makes the most sense with current group play and would give me more of a sense of presence than current conditions. with this setup just having a guard in group would make the group feel better considering the always possiblity of adds and current aggro mismanagement.

[Gungo]

<DIV>Nemi posted an idea for guardians only instead of lowering down rescue to 5 mins to create a new rescue line for gaurdians that was a weaker group version. This in effect gives u 2 rescue lines and help regain agro in group settings. It could be like the prerevamp verision of rescue but on a 10 min timer and encounter wide taunt. If i remember correctly it was 1 hate position and about 900+ hate.</DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo.</P> <P> </P> <P>Still doenst matter if we arnt on our feet.</P> <P>Ooops tank lost ago.  Its on the healer...</P> <P>Rescue or what ever... guardian hit for 1500 1500 2000 dead.</P> <P>end of raid.</P> <P> </P>

[Gladesman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though I disagree that making all fighters tanks nerfed us.  What nerfed us was the combination of  the avoidance/mitigation decrease.   The avoidance decrease I understood and accepted.    But that in combination with the mitigation decrease killed our tanking ability.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Yes, but our tanking ability will be fixed. It will be.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>And when it will be fixed, we'll still just be "slightly better than the other tanks", hence my cry for DPS/utility to make our class desirable to group/play with again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The naked truth is: SOE wants all fighters to be tanks from now onwards and I don't think we will ever be (preferred) tank for the non-epic content again UNLESS they turn down tanking abilities from the other fighters.. and well, that's not going to happen. To make us an interesting and desirable class we will need something else other than just bare tanking abilities. That's all I'm saying.</FONT></P>

[Gungo]

<P>o Sorry warbird i didn't mean for the group rescue ability to be a replacement for tanking. i suggested it as a compliment in regards to taunting which was one of the other issues brought up. </P> <P>From sixman's post it seems brawlers may be avoiding to much compared to other fighters. In his post i recommended in regards to his numbers reduce avodiance on verylight, light and medium armour by ~10 % this will prevent scout from having higher avodiance then fighters and prevent brawlers from tanking better then other fighters. Adding mitigation doesnt sound to me like a fix other then a bandaid. because</P> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation </P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled t6 armourt this issue will be even more pronounced.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. Lowering avoidance will also make this harder.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:12 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>This is what i propose to help guardians, not saying i don't think guards need to tank better in regards to sixman's numbers just there is plenty of issues needed to be fixed other then mititgation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raahl wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nope, I let them speak for themselves.  And by reading and looking at there posts.</DIV> <P>#1 guardians are no longer fun to play. <FONT color=#ffff33>Increased utility and a more well rounded gaurd. </FONT></P> <P>#2 we don't mitigate enough and/or mitigation is broken.<FONT color=#ffff33> You mitgate mroe then other fighters, but by lowering avodiance the gap i avodiance between the 2 classes will be relative to the gap in mitigation that sixman posted</FONT></P> <P>#3 our taunts need increased/upgraded.  Remove root from HTL <FONT color=#ffff33>i agree remove root from HTL a group rescue can also help regain lost agro.</FONT></P> <P>#4 playing my guardian is boring and I want some utility. <FONT color=#ffff33>utility and special skills and short duration buffs that are timed right can seperate a well played gaurd from a poorly played gaurd thus making guards perfrom better and mroe fun.</FONT></P> <P>#5 I want more DPS. <FONT color=#ffff33>Increase in dps in offensive stance. thsi will help soloing and small group play where as a gaurd in defensive stance in high end group and raid play will benefit more from the extra tankign then from the extra dps.</FONT></P> <P>#6 I want more avoidance. <FONT color=#ffff33>In retrospect lower brawler scout avodiance will allow you to have comparable avodiance.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>The fact is raahl you ignore every opinion that doesnt support your "vision". Where i have actually looked and considered ideas brought up by people on this board. when people bring up an idea i either support or deny those claims w facts. Your statements only consist of "feelings" and how you want to be supreme. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The fact is you cannot handle that the majority of us do not believe in your "vision" of what will fix a guardian.  Your mind is so closed to the fact that we are overall the worst, if not close to the worst tanks.   Sure we can tank a small % of the mobs effectively, but overall we are the worst tank.   You do not state any facts.  You have no experience at being a guardian and you chose what is best for your class.   You do not want to see guardians fixed, because it benefits you.   You constantly drag conversations into arguments 'like this one'. </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Gungo wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gaurds mentions utility .,, you scream i don;t want utility i want mititgation.  when a gaurdian said well mobs in DoF don't even mitigate vs ac.. you say i want mititgation.. gaurds say well when guards cap out mtiigation and have no room for improvement and brawlers catch up again they will be the best tank.. you say i want mitgation. when soemone comes here and says well i want utility so i can solo  better and not take 10 min to kill soemthing or since the best tank is not always needed in groups i would like to have somethign else to offer other then slowing down the xp grind.. you say I dont want  utility I want Mitigation. when someone comes and says scouts have higher avoidance then guards ... you say i want mitgation. That has been your only argument. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Utility will not fix the problem that guardians are having with tanking.   Utility can come after Sony fixes the tanking imbalances.  I personally am happy with my utility and accept that I no longer buff my group as much.  If Sony decides to give us more, fine.  But they must fix the fighter imbalance before doing so.  This is why I come down on suggestions of utility when there are bigger issues that need to be fixed.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Gungo wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you see the problem here? You don't actually read or understand other people's point of view?</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I read each and every post, do I mis-read stuff occationally, yes.   Do you understand the problem here?  Do you understand that Utility will not fix the tanking imbalance that is currently in game?   Again I do not believe you want this fixed, because as long as it leaves you as the better tank you are happy. </P> <P>To all those guardians asking for utility.  We can work on getting more utility when our tanking ability is fixed.  To me, and many others, this is the biggest issue that needs fixed.  Can we tank?  Yes.  Can we tank as well as others?  No.</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>This is what i propose to help guardians, not saying i don't think guards need to tank better in regards to sixman's numbers just there is plenty of issues needed to be fixed other then mititgation.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raahl wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nope, I let them speak for themselves.  And by reading and looking at there posts.</DIV> <P>#1 guardians are no longer fun to play. <FONT color=#ffff33>Increased utility and a more well rounded gaurd. </FONT></P> <P>#2 we don't mitigate enough and/or mitigation is broken.</P> <P>#3 our taunts need increased/upgraded.  Remove root from HTL</P> <P>#4 playing my guardian is boring and I want some utility.</P> <P>#5 I want more DPS.</P> <P>#6 I want more avoidance.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Why do you fail to understand that the main reason it is not fun is because of the tanking issues?  Fix that and issue #1 goes away for the most part.

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo </P> <P>And thats what I have been seeing.</P> <P>avoidance seems to be out of scale with mitigation.</P> <P>Just a thought here.  But for those out there who dont want us to have more armor mitigation what about this?</P> <P>Since were wearing heavy plate then our resistance to stun, styfle, interupt, knockback, crushing, slashing would be twice that of chain and four times that of lighter armor.  </P> <P>That would allow us to use our CA's and taunts more and thus allow us to stay on our feet more?</P> <P> </P>

[blueduckie]

<P>If they wanna give us Utility make it with our shield soley and specifccally tower shield. We are a sword and board class point blank. Make us immune to frontal stuns and stiffles. Make us have a blocking form that allows us to block 35% of all melee attacks for 30 sec. Also give us a spell block that mitigates spells at cost of slighlty dmging our shield by hiding behind it. The shield is huge give it more uses. I personally would feel uber if i could go unstunned from front. I would laugh at others losing aggro from a early stun from how crazy it is atm. Over powering i dont think so IMO nothing compared to having FD mend and so many stiffles and stuns brawlers get compared to us. </P> <P>Boosting tower shield is def way to go tho IMO. Dont know what else utility would be realistic for a guardian. We are a warrior we spit on magic type skills. Dont want a self ward honestly if you want a ward make a crusader. Thats my 2 cents i definatly see more utility in our future along with other things. Alot of threads popping up no way SOE isnt seeing the problem. I dont envy them having to find a way to fix it tho because they have to run tests and numbers on whatever they consider for plate classes.</P> <P>As nemi said tho on another thread margin of tanking cant be huge but we deserve the 1 up 5-10% less total melee dmg isnt out of line over all others IMO because realistically if you hit 5-10% hp constantly anny clas can tank it. Just gives a small cushin for the pushin. Dont frown on utility just matters the cost we pay to get it. Hoping we dont get thrown a bone and told to f off about are tanking problems</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gladesman wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though I disagree that making all fighters tanks nerfed us.  What nerfed us was the combination of  the avoidance/mitigation decrease.   The avoidance decrease I understood and accepted.    But that in combination with the mitigation decrease killed our tanking ability.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Yes, but our tanking ability will be fixed. It will be.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>And when it will be fixed, we'll still just be "slightly better than the other tanks", hence my cry for DPS/utility to make our class desirable to group/play with again <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The naked truth is: SOE wants all fighters to be tanks from now onwards and I don't think we will ever be (preferred) tank for the non-epic content again UNLESS they turn down tanking abilities from the other fighters.. and well, that's not going to happen. To make us an interesting and desirable class we will need something else other than just bare tanking abilities. That's all I'm saying.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I hope you are correct in that it will be fixed.  I however hoped the combat update would not leave us in the position we are now in and look where we are. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>But I see that being vocal about problems will get them fixed for certain, a squeaky wheel comes to mind.  So I will continue to push for getting the tanking fixed.</P> <P>Thanks again for being reasonable and for understanding that there is an issue with our tanking ability.</P>

[Gungo]

<P>Raahl seriously man you got to stop the subjective reading my entire post wasn't about adding utility it had alot of variables other then tanking and utility that adding mitigation will not fix. I also edited the yellow text one i wasn't done qouting it, but i genrally post before i get timed out because this message board sucks </P> <P>Adding mitigation doesnt sound to me like a fix other then a bandaid. because</P> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)</P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. Lowering avoidance will also make this harder.</P> <P> </P> <P>Do you get my point yet raahl please tell me how adding mitigation will fix any of these problems? These are the issues that Guardians have brought up not me that you keep ignoring.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:44 AM</span>

[Krooner]

<DIV>Gungo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok.</DIV> <DIV>So if I read you correctly then our problem isnt mit its avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok then we have 2 alternatives.</DIV> <DIV>a.  you up our avoidance to where it was pre-LU13 and leave everything else alone.</DIV> <DIV>b.  you lower brawlers avoidance to make things as hard on them as it is to us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>personally I would go for A because I hate to see any class nerfed.</DIV> <DIV> so the choice is simple.</DIV> <DIV>put our avoidance back up over 50%</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:32 AM</span>

[Vulking]

<P>THE fundamental problem is this!  <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>W.T.F. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>do you need so many tanks for?</FONT></STRONG>  I mean really, what for?  What do they contribute?  What does one extra tank add to a group that a dps, utility, or healer class doesn't, better yet, to a raid.  </P> <P><STRONG><FONT size=4>One mob=(one tank/aggro controller+healing+dps)</FONT></STRONG> </P> <P>Ok maybe two tanks in those rare raid situations where you need one to peel off the adds. </P> <P> I mean come-on, just look at the composition of any botter crew and ask yourself; why does this group consist of one tank, one healer, and 4 mage classes, (<EM>scouts are dps/utility, but not included in bot crews because they are complex characters and are hard to play as bots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></EM> )?</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#669900>If SOE can find an answer to this issue, then I feel all tank classes can find a position on the battlefield.</FONT></STRONG></P> <p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:32 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Also Blue i thiink adding a stun resist to shields will help both crusaders and gaurds alot and is a good idea. I dont think medium armour needs stun resist since scouts do tank quite well as it is. </DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>Actuall warbird you got it.</P> <P>Actual option A still leaves brawlers soloing low to even con 2 up heroics. (some may not see this as a problem, but some do) </P> <P>Actual B is not a good alternitve either since if you just lower brawler avodiance then scouts will still be able to tank DoF mobs better then guards. </P> <P>What i Proposed is if considering Sixman's numbers are correct that SoE lowers all avodiance on Very light, Light and Medium armour by ~10%. This would solve alot of the issues that people have brougth up. </P> <P>additionally after lower avoidance on other fighters they need to give guards more Gasp utility =P. I am sticky with utility lol there is a sizable population in the guard community that has made this request.</P>

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo. </P> <P> </P> <P>I keep hearing that word but what Im not sure you realize is that we had utility.</P> <P>Case in point.</P> <P>We go to do the Speak as a Dragon starter for the first time some months ago.</P> <P>I try to tank it first.. we had a rough time and had to reset and try it again.  We find the dragon is doing a poison AOE.</P> <P>Solution.  I put my intercepts on the SK.  He had a higher poison resist.  But what else I gave him is gone. 1K in HP.</P> <P>In a group if I was MT OT or AFK getting a beer I gave the group more than a token 300+ HP.  Braskans gave crushing resist.  And Return to Battle gave the guard a STR boost at the end.  All the secondary effects of our group buffs and CA's were either gimped or dropped.  There went our utility.</P> <P>Im not sure there is anything that could be added to make up for those.  Its going to take more than just one spell because it doesnt just affect the uber 50+'s it affects the whole class.  So if SOE wants to fix things they need to fix the whole spell line.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<P>I agree warbird </P> <P>First off I am glad we agree on the avoidnace issue funny how raahl stops posting when i clearly state arguments he can't refute. </P> <P> </P> <P>(disclaimer these are in addition to fixing tanking disparities)</P> <P>and there are several ideas and abilites peopel have suggested to fill in those many missing gaps.</P> <DIV>Stun resist on shields to help crusaders and warriors. a small amount of mitgation on shields.Both these can be adjusted to differentiate kite vs tower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a group rescue, and a slow component on your aoe taunt </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a 3 sec 25% stun proc on your offensive stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a new long range pull ability to replace anchor (I suggested a long range bow stifle that works on epics, Raid utility :smileywink<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a 15 sec 10 min reuse auto riposte ability like monks tsunami that does taunts instead of extra dam. Great for that inital pull to build agro and have debuffers do their job.. In eq1 we used rangers to wpnshield so we could debuff a mob, becuase they were so hard unbuffed this seems like a logical solution.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>another 30 sec buff that doubles your sheild avodiance would be cool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>add a knockback or knockdown atk for a lil flavor and you have some nice new buffs and utility that helps not only in tanking but fun and if these are used correctly can help a gaurdian become a great tank. These are not all the ideas suggested but it is part of a few that have been said.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Krooner]

<DIV>Gungo wrote</DIV> <DIV> <DIV>a 15 sec 10 min reuse auto riposte ability like monks tsunami that does taunts instead of extra dam. Great for that inital pull to build agro and have debuffers do their job.. In eq1 we used rangers to wpnshield so we could debuff a mob, becuase they were so hard unbuffed this seems like a logical solution.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fine I would agree to that. as long as the hate generated was on the same level as the other major spells the other classes have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if your gonna tell us we need utility then give us something with numbers on par with:</DIV> <DIV>Harm touch. 5K + at lvl 51 these days</DIV> <DIV>Tsunami</DIV> <DIV>Hundered Hand Slap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and what ever else major CA or utility there is out there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than rescue ( which lots of others have ) there isnt anything on the same scale.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>I agree warbird</P> <P>First off I am glad we agree on the avoidnace issue funny how raahl stops posting when i clearly state arguments he can't refute. </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>OMG you are so full of yourself.  Someone goes to lunch and you automatically claim they cannot refute you.</P> <DIV>We can agree that guardians have tanking issues.   You solution is to reduce other classes mitigation?  Did I understand that right?  If I did how will that fix the guardian's issues.  I see it as only causing issues for the other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>[edit adding more]</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not that were on topic.  But I'll reply to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV> <HR> Gungo wrote:</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Adding mitigation doesnt sound to me like a fix other then a bandaid. because</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)</P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. Lowering avoidance will also make this harder.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1)  This may be true.  Simply adding mitigation will not solve these issue.  Perhaps making Mitigation affect these types of attack might be a way to help fix this.  Perhaps raising resistances will help this also.  But I'm fairly certain that adding utility would not solve this either.  I have not seen a suggestion yet that would.  Though I will not back off my statements that guardians and plate classes in general need more mitigation.  Mitigation alone may not solve the problems totally but it's the first place to start.</P> <P>2) First off I believe basing your arguments against what hard core players do is a mistake.  The reason the 80% cap is there is to limit the power players.  This helps sony make sure that most encounters are not trivialized by people maximizing their equipment.  So the solution may be to reduce the mitigation on fabled armor.  Raising the resistance on fabled would probably be a decent tradeoff.  </P> <P>3) Neither will upping Utility.  I do not care about what scouts do.  I only care that guardians are broken.  Raising and fixing mitigation will help guardians and in most cases help all tank classes.</P> <P>4) This may be true but it will not fix the guardians issues.   It would probably break brawlers.  If coupled with something that made thier mitigation work (at least partially) against all damage types, this might soften the blow.  </P> <P>Message Edited by Raahl on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:00 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:00 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>Do you think i am arguing against you warbird if you read my post i am asking to nerf bruiser avoid and give gaurds more taunts/ special abiltes. anyway seems guards just want to whine just to whine. Not every ability has to be a carbon copy of another class warbird i dont have tsunami or harmtouch or lay on hands or HTL or an entire series of protection buffs asking for everything  every fighter has is a bit over egotistical. Don't whine just to whine think for your self and come up with constructive ideas for your class liek alot of other guards has done..</P> <P> i said group rescue which would be weaker then the current rescue since it would be a bit over pwoer in a group format but if they had it like the prerevamp rescue lets say 1 hate postion and 900+hate but group only on a 10 min timer it would be good as a guard only skill. </P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Gunga at least you recognize our greifs, altho I really wish I would stop hearing the word "utility".  If they give us any "utility" spells it better increase or tanking abilities AND or tuants cuz that is all I care about when grouping and raiding.  Taking hits and taking agro...everything is crap.  Im tired of posting all the time, My class is broken and pathetic atm, (read my post about pets tanking better then us, Guards ya aint we grand).  Altho some may disagree with me about being able to tank better, I truly feel that MOST the Guard community cares about that more then anything else.  I think Raahl hits the nail on the head in most cases, and I agree with him that I hate seeing other classes nerfed to make them more in line with guardians.  Why not just fix the Mitigation formula to were it actually has an effect on mobs over even con.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo Nope dont think your arguing with me.  Sorry if it came over that way.</P> <P> </P> <P>And Yea thats what I want to stay away from.  I dont want a carbon copy of someone elses skill.</P> <P>I want something that when someone is in a group and says.. Yeah wwe need this guardian.  Or something that seriously defines us as a class.</P> <P>Like I said </P> <P>Every figher has taunts</P> <P>most have a Rescue.</P> <P>We need something unique.  Im not asking for anything UBER.  just something on SCALE with the other classes specail abilites.</P> <P>And for those of you about to post.  BUT you have intercepts. SO what so do SK and other classes and they still suck.  Ours will do one of 2 things.</P> <P>a.  Allow us to take damage others would have taken.  When were not in the MT role healers hate this because they have to split their focus. </P> <P>b.  Will allow us to shield an ally but we generate hate to us.  Once again if were not in the MT role its not going to be much use because the MT will lose AGRO to us.</P> <P>I have no problem being OT or even ST some of the time.  But plain and simple it was SOE's for guards to be MT </P> <P>That doesnt mean were the ONLY MT. </P> <P> </P>

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote:<BR> <P>We need something unique.  Im not asking for anything UBER.  just something on SCALE with the other classes specail abilites. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>One of the things that makes guardians different from other fighters (their utility, if you will) is their ability to protect their group. No other fighter has as many ways to increase the defensive capabilities of their group and absorb a portion of the damage that hits them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warriors also have a greater number of abilities that include direct hate generation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group buffs are sometimes easy to take for granted, maybe because they're not as instantly recognizable or flashy as something like Lay on Hands or Feign Death. That doesn't, however, make them any less valuable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you compare entire spell lines for the fighter classes, you'll see that some professions are geared more toward enhancing the abilities of a group while others are more self-oriented. Guardians are arguably at the top of the group-oriented end of the spectrum while bruisers are at the other end. This difference does not make one clearly better than another; it's a matter of situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The effect a class can have on a group is one factor of balance. When a guardian buffs the defense or health of an entire group, that's a bonus applied to up to five other people. Those benefits are measurable and cumulative; the more people the guardian groups with, the more who benefit from their presence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here are a couple examples to show what I mean. Let me make clear that I'm not trying to say Spell X is worth more than Spell Y; I am only trying to illustrate the emphasis on group buffs for some classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-insideh: .5pt solid silver; mso-border-insidev: .5pt solid silver" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1> <TBODY> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 0; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 662.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=884 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Rallying Cry<xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" ></FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 1; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Warrior</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>12</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Rallying Cry</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the physical defense of the warrior's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 2; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Guardian</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>26, 40, 54</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Battle Cry, Commanding Presence, Commanding Aura</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the physical defense of the guardian's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus slashing and piercing attacks is improved.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 3; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Berserker</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>26, 40, 54</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Havoc, Anarchy, Chaos</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the physical defense of the berserker's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus crushing attacks is especially improved.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 4; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 662.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=884 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Demonstration of Faith</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 5; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Crusader</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>12</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Demonstration of Faith</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Wards the crusader's target, preventing them from taking damage.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 6; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Paladin</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>26, 40, 54</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Faithful Zeal, Display of Devotion, Demonstration of Devotion</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Wards the paladin's target, preventing them from taking damage.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 7; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Shadowknight</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>26, 40, 54</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Infernal Pact, Unholy Blessing, Heinous Blessing</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Places an augmentation on a group member that drains health from any opponents that attack them. This effect can trigger 5 times.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 8; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 662.9pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=884 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Martial Focus</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 9; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Brawler</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>12</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Martial Focus</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the brawler's strength and agility.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 10; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Monk</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>26, 40, 54</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Karmic Focus, Control Breathing, Inner Calm</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the monk's strength and wisdom.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="HEIGHT: 12.75pt; mso-yfti-irow: 11; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Bruiser</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 33.55pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=45> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>26, 40, 54</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 144.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=193> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Bob and Weave, </SPAN><xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" ><st1:City><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Battle</SPAN></st1:City><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> Fury, </SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Battle</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> Lust</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 406.85pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; HEIGHT: 12.75pt; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=542> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the bruiser's strength and agility.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing the lines above, warriors and crusaders both get abilities that benefit the whole group. Brawlers get a self buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-insideh: .5pt solid silver; mso-border-insidev: .5pt solid silver" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1> <TBODY> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><st1:City><st1:place><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Battle</SPAN></B></st1:place></st1:City><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> Tactics</SPAN></B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> <B></B></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Warrior</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>19</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Battle</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> Tactics</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the maximum health of the warrior's group.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 2; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Guardian</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>33, 47</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Do or Die, Return to </SPAN><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Battle</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the maximum health of the guardian's group.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 3; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Berserker</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>33, 47</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Screaming Fury, Destructive Rage</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the in-combat health regeneration of the berserker's group.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 4; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Vigor of Trust</SPAN></B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 5; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Crusader</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>19</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Vigor of Trust</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the wisdom of the crusader's group.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 6; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Paladin</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>33, 47</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Pious Belief, Crusade</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the wisdom of the Paladin's group.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 7; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Shadowknight</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>33, 47</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Contract of Shadows, Unholy Strength</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the strength and stamina of the crusader's group.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 8; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Rapid Swings</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 9; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Brawler</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>19</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Rapid Swings</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Has a chance to launch a series of 4 attacks. If any one attack misses, the remaining attacks will miss as well.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 10; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Monk</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>33, 47</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Darting Sparrow, Lunging Mongoose</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Launches a flurry of attacks.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 11; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 76.3pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=102> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Bruiser</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 37.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=50> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>33, 47</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 85.1pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=113> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>One Hundred Hand Slap, Crushing Fury</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 460.65pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=614> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Launches a flurry of attacks that cause high damage to the enemy. If any one attack misses the series stops at that attack.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warriors and crusaders have group buffs. Brawlers get an extra attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(A bit more coming in a reply to this post. The forum software doesn't like having too many tables in a single post. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)</DIV><p>Message Edited by Moorgard on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:13 PM</span>

[Moorgard]

<DIV>(Continued from above.)</DIV> <DIV> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" ></SPAN> </P><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><o:p> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-insideh: .5pt solid silver; mso-border-insidev: .5pt solid silver" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1> <TBODY> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=5> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Call of Command</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=103> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Guardian</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 36.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=49 colSpan=2> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>24, 38, 52</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 69.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=93> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Call of Command, Call of Protection, Call of Defense</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 475.8pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=634> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases the defense skill of the guardian's group.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 2; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=5> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" ><st1:City><st1:place><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Battle</SPAN></B></st1:place></st1:City><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> Chant</SPAN></B></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 3; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=103> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Berserker</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 36.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=49 colSpan=2> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>24, 38, 52</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 69.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=93> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><st1:City><st1:place><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Battle</SPAN></st1:place></st1:City><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> Chant, War Chant, War Call</SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 475.8pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=634> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Grants a chance for the berserker's group to berserk in combat for a short duration.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 4; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=5> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Blessing of the Penitent</SPAN></B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 5; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=103> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Paladin</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 36.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=49 colSpan=2> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>24, 38, 52</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 69.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=93> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Blessing of the Penitent, Blessing of the Devout, Blessing of the Celestial</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 475.8pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=634> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Increases your maximum hit points. Also grants the paladin a chance to summon a shard spell component when the paladin is struck.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 6; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=5> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Tainted Caress</SPAN></B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> <B></B></SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 7; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=103> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Shadowknight</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 36.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=49 colSpan=2> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>24, 38, 52</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 69.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=93> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Tainted Caress, Cursed Caress, Infernal Caress</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 475.8pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=634> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Places a negative energy shield around the shadowknight, damaging and increasing hate with anyone that strikes the shadowknight. A tainted essence is sometimes summoned to the shadowknight on each melee attack.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 8; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=5> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Wind Walk</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 9; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=103> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Monk</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 23.25pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=31> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>24</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 83.45pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=111 colSpan=2> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Wind Walk</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 475.8pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=634> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Allows a monk to travel invisibly until the monk is drained of power. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 10; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=5> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Intimidate</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 11; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=103> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Bruiser</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 36.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=49 colSpan=2> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>24, 38, 52</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 69.95pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=93> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Intimidate, Strong Arm, Unnerve</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 475.8pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=634> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Prevents the target from doing anything and removes them from being affected by area of effect spells for a short duration. It will break if the target is struck for damage. Upgrades to this ability decrease the chance to resist the duration of this effect.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">Guardians get a group defense buff, berserkers get a group offense buff, paladins get a health buff, shadowknights get a taunting damage shield, monks get self invisibility, and bruisers get a short mez.</P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> <TABLE class=MsoNormalTable style="BORDER-RIGHT: medium none; BORDER-TOP: medium none; BORDER-LEFT: medium none; BORDER-BOTTOM: medium none; BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse; mso-padding-alt: 0in 5.75pt 0in 5.75pt; mso-table-layout-alt: fixed; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-insideh: .5pt solid silver; mso-border-insidev: .5pt solid silver" cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=1> <TBODY> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 0; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Guardian Sphere</SPAN></B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 1; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Guardian</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=48> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>50</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=96> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Guardian Sphere</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 473.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=632> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Allows the guardian to protect the entire group, sometimes absorbing all the damage a group member would otherwise take.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 2; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Rampage</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 3; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Berserker</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=48> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>50</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=96> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Rampage</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 473.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=632> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Rampage allows the berserker to attack all nearby enemies whenever you attack. This effect can trigger up to 10 times.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 4; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Decree</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 5; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Paladin</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=48> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>50</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=96> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Decree</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 473.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=632> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Deals instant divine damage and interrupts the target and surrounding encounter members.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 6; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Despoiling Mist</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 7; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Shadowknight</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=48> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>50</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=96> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Despoiling Mist</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 473.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=632> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Decreases Armor Class on the target and surrounding encounter members within the area of effect</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 8; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Silent Palm</FONT></FONT></SPAN></B></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 9; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Monk</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=48> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>50</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=96> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Silent Palm</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 473.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=632> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>A powerful attack that stifles the target for a short duration. Every time the target takes damage, there is a small chance the stifle effect will break early.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 10; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; BACKGROUND: #606060; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 659.5pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=879 colSpan=4> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff><B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial">Bruiser</SPAN></B><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P></TD></TR> <TR style="mso-yfti-irow: 11; mso-yfti-lastrow: yes; page-break-inside: avoid"> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: silver 1pt solid; WIDTH: 77.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=104> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="COLOR: black; mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Bruiser</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 0.5in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=48> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>50</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 1in; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=96> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>Savage Blows</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD> <TD style="BORDER-RIGHT: silver 1pt solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 5.75pt; BORDER-TOP: #d4d0c8; PADDING-LEFT: 5.75pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0in; BORDER-LEFT: #d4d0c8; WIDTH: 473.75pt; PADDING-TOP: 0in; BORDER-BOTTOM: silver 1pt solid; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; mso-border-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-left-alt: solid silver .5pt; mso-border-top-alt: solid silver .5pt" vAlign=top noWrap width=632> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"><SPAN style="mso-bidi-font-size: 10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-family: Arial"><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>A series of quick attacks that strike all nearby enemies. If one of these attacks misses on a target, the successive ones will miss automatically on that target.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">In the level 50 abilities, guardians again get something that protects their group. All other classes get some kind of attack.</P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt"> </P> <P class=MsoNormal style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt">If you want to look for a theme or flavor for the class, you could say the guardian excels at protecting their group. The benefits of this are seen not when looking at the guardian in isolation, but rather when examining the effect they have on their entire party.</P></o:p></SPAN></DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Thanks for posting Moorgard.  </P> <P>So if I read you right our utility as a guardian is in our group buffs.</P> <P>Can you give us any encouragement that you guys are checking into the various issues we are reporting?</P> <P> </P> <P>Specifically that our mitigation seems bugged or that it needs increased?</P> <p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:12 PM</span>

[Danan]

sounds alot like utility to me :smileyvery-happy:

[Afterglo]

<DIV>Is that a joke?  For starters, the group buffs you mention at the top are such short duration they really aren't that useful except to gain hate for the guardian, especially with out of encounter adds.  Yes, the HP buffs below are nice.  However, buffing your group is a weak reason for a guardian to be good, considering priests do such a better job at it.  The role of a fighter is generally to take the damage for the group, not buff the group.  Guardians have become one of the worst fighters at doing their job.  Also, the other 'special' abilties you fail to list here are just plain horrible.</DIV>

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>ok our job is to protect the group, this is also taking in consideration as overal utility? so our job isnt really to tank just take damage for the group, "sometimes". The logic behind this is what, now every group needs 2 healers or one super healer who's good at targeting / timing? Then who's the mt, paladins? paladins heal themselves / take damage while the guardian sometimes absorbs the paladins damage while the cleric heals the guardian? I refuse to believe guardians just run around intercepting damage when the aggro is not theirs. Soe just change rescue to 0 sec recast.</DIV>

[Orodru]

<P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Just a follow up to this:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I thought the idea of a tank within a group, be he a guardian or any other class, is to take the damage so others don't have to.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>With that as a premise, I don't see much advantage to any tank having utility to protect people who aren't being targetted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Sure, the occasional surprise add, or situations where the rest of the group must take AE damage because they cannot get out of it. But those situations are fairly rare.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>So does it really make much sense for a class who's defining role is to prevent everyone around him from taking any damage to have a bunch of utility arts that enable everyone around him to take more damage?</FONT></P>

[Realix]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aftergloom wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is that a joke?  For starters, the group buffs you mention at the top are such short duration they really aren't that useful except to gain hate for the guardian, especially with out of encounter adds.  Yes, the HP buffs below are nice.  However, buffing your group is a weak reason for a guardian to be good, considering priests do such a better job at it.  The role of a fighter is generally to take the damage for the group, not buff the group.  Guardians have become one of the worst fighters at doing their job.  Also, the other 'special' abilties you fail to list here are just plain horrible.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, it seems from Moorgard's posts above that Guardians have a lot of very useful utility.  Guardians are guardians, not because they should be the best tank in every situation, but  because they excel at guarding their entire group with the buffs talked about above.  </DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Oh and according to Moorgard, Guardians have utility and do not need more utility.</P> <P>Again thank you Moorgard.  </P>

[Kordran]

<DIV>I think the problem isn't really with implementation, it's with the player's own internal concept of what they think the class should be. In reality, the fighter is a <EM>support</EM> class. Your job is to be the meatshield for the real DPS in the group, the casters and rogues; and as such, I think all the fighter classes have plenty of utility. As long as you can hold aggro, take a lickin' and keep on tickin', you're doing what you're designed to do. Everything else is pretty much secondary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A humorous aside: a few weeks ago there was a post about a Guardian who, after being questioned why he didn't taunt a mob off a caster, replied that his job wasn't to taunt, it was to do damage. That's someone living in a serious state of confusion or denial, take your pick. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Kordran on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:44 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kordran wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think the problem isn't really with implementation, it's with the player's own internal concept of what they think the class should be. In reality, the fighter is a <EM>support</EM> class. Your job is to be the meatshield for the real DPS in the group, the casters and rogues. As long as you can hold aggro, take a lickin' and keep on tickin', you're doing what you're designed to do. Everything else is pretty much secondary.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A few weeks ago there was a post about a Guardian who, after being questioned why he didn't taunt a mob off a caster, his response was that his job wasn't to taunt, it was to do damage. That's someone living in a serious state of confusion or denial, take your pick. :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I always feel I've failed my job if I lose aggro and kills one of my groupmates.  <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Afterglo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Realix wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aftergloom wrote:<BR> <DIV>Is that a joke?  For starters, the group buffs you mention at the top are such short duration they really aren't that useful except to gain hate for the guardian, especially with out of encounter adds.  Yes, the HP buffs below are nice.  However, buffing your group is a weak reason for a guardian to be good, considering priests do such a better job at it.  The role of a fighter is generally to take the damage for the group, not buff the group.  Guardians have become one of the worst fighters at doing their job.  Also, the other 'special' abilties you fail to list here are just plain horrible.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, it seems from Moorgard's posts above that Guardians have a lot of very useful utility.  Guardians are guardians, not because they should be the best tank in every situation, but  because they excel at guarding their entire group with the buffs talked about above.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You don't sound at all like someone who has a guardian.  If I can keep aggro well, noone in my group should have to worry about taking damage from mobs that isn't spell damage (yeah, there are some AE physical damage).  If I am able to do my job as a guardian the damage should be directed at me, because the mob is hitting me, not because I suck at keeping aggro and have to use some crappy spell that makes me take the damage another person in the group is getting because I can't hold aggro.  Our group buffs listed above are simply not that good.  If a group needs a tank, they will take a tank (which is now not a guardian), if they want someone to buff their group, they will take a priest, which comes with better group buffs and heals (not to mention resses).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian Rallying Cry Line: Short Duration, better for aggro than anything, you're lucky if you can get it off at the exact time some big hits are going off, especially now that everything isn't right at the beginning.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Battle Tactics Line:  Good buffs, no complaints here, but this isn't going to get us groups or anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Call of Protection Line:  Good buff, but defense has been nerfed hardcore, not nearly as good as it used to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian Sphere:  I don't have the spell details in front of me, but if I remember right its pretty lame.  If we're the ones tanking its not going to be a big deal if we take damage from another person in our group, because they shouldn't really be getting hit.  Just compare this to some of the other spells moorgard compares this to of other classes, like Rampages, an incredible spell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our Avoidance Buff Line:  Umm, increases avoidance, but decreases hate.  Who are you going to use this on?  You can't stick it on the group's tank, they won't be able to keep aggro, well, unless they're a monk ; p so its only real use is to slap it on whoever in your group steals aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Intercept Line:  Like guardian sphere, pretty useless if you ask me.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>Well our group buffs provide MITIGATION. Right now vs yellow or above, mitigation is so toned down, it is useless. As our all the defense buffs we get.. the DEFENSE skill in any reasonable group is utterly useless past a 50 point buff mark. So while its find and dandy to give us a bunch of buffs.. we buff DEFENSE and MITIGATION, neither of which does anything on the mobs a scout can't already tank just fine. So as a gaurdian, i give 500 hp to the group. I am trading that for being a bruiser who does 3x the dps and tanks equally? That is not fair OR balanced. Guardians are meant to be maintanks. Not buffbots with useless buffs, that is a troubador. We need to SELF buff ac and defense and other more meaningful things. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Well our group buffs provide MITIGATION. Right now vs yellow or above, mitigation is so toned down, it is useless. As our all the defense buffs we get.. the DEFENSE skill in any reasonable group is utterly useless past a 50 point buff mark.<BR><BR>So while its find and dandy to give us a bunch of buffs.. we buff DEFENSE and MITIGATION, neither of which does anything on the mobs a scout can't already tank just fine.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>So as a gaurdian, i give 500 hp to the group.<BR><BR>I am trading that for being a bruiser who does 3x the dps and tanks equally?<BR><BR>That is not fair OR balanced.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Good point Tuna.  Though lets not beat on Moorgard too much.  He just pointed out what our utility is.  Not that it was actually usefull to MT with.

[Ci]

<div></div><span></span><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Guardian</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">24, 38, 52</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Call of Command, Call of Protection, Call of Defense</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Increases the defense skill of the guardian's group.</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Guardian</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">26, 40, 54</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Battle Cry, Commanding Presence, Commanding Aura</font></font></span></p><p><span><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">Increases the physical defense of the guardian's group against slashing, piercing, and crushing attacks for a short duration. Defense versus slashing and piercing attacks is improved.</font></font></span></p>These actually do something now? Seal line for warlocks doesnt seem to do anything<div></div>

[EvilIguana9]

The question that should be asked of any class is "why would a group/raid choose class x over any other class?".  Utility does no good for class x if he could be replaced by class y for a net gain.  I don't know how good or bad guardians have it at the moment.  I haven't even gotten a chance to group with my paladin yet since the guild is all in DoF which i have yet to purchase.  So don't think that I am on any one side of this argument.  I'm merely pointing out that for balance to exist in multi player environments there has to be a reason to pick somone other than the old "there isn't any other choice".  Personally I wish there was a more robust system for multiple tanks in encounters.  It would be fun to see several tanks in a line holding back a raid target with it's eye on the casters.  Unfortunately the AI is not robust enough to deal with such things, and the combat system doesn't have anything to prevent a mob from just immediately switching targets.  <div></div>

[Animox]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div><div><span><p>If you want to look for a theme or flavor for the class, you could say the guardian excels at protecting their group. The benefits of this are seen not when looking at the guardian in isolation, but rather when examining the effect they have on their entire party.</p></span></div><hr></blockquote>As many before me have stated, most of the guardian's group buffs are useless because if the guardian is holding aggro correctly, they never come into play.  I had a 29 paladin and am currently playing a 27 guardian, so I have experience with 2 different types of tanking.  I have an entire hotbar of  guardian abilities that I never use.  I keep them on screen hoping that at some point their "utility" will surface.  I solo, I group, and I group regularly with a shaman and a dirge.  I rarely use 1/3 to 1/2 of my "utility" combat arts.  If half my skills are never used and say another 1/4 are situational (solo and HO), that leaves me with about five CA's of approximately 30 available at my level that are useful while grouping--taunt, aoe taunt, hp buff (really self only as the dirge and shaman rarely get hit), attack buff, and defense stance (self-only).  My problem while playing the paladin was fitting everything I needed and used regularly on screen, with the guardian my main problem is a screen cluttered with one useless spell after another.</span><div></div>

[Greyform]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR> Well our group buffs provide MITIGATION. Right now vs yellow or above, mitigation is so toned down, it is useless. As our all the defense buffs we get.. the DEFENSE skill in any reasonable group is utterly useless past a 50 point buff mark.<BR><BR>So while its find and dandy to give us a bunch of buffs.. we buff DEFENSE and MITIGATION, neither of which does anything on the mobs a scout can't already tank just fine.<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>So as a gaurdian, i give 500 hp to the group.<BR><BR>I am trading that for being a bruiser who does 3x the dps and tanks equally?<BR><BR>That is not fair OR balanced.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Guardians are meant to be maintanks. Not buffbots with useless buffs, that is a troubador. We need to SELF buff ac and defense and other more meaningful things. <BR> <P>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>100% agreement

[Moontayle]

<P>Ok Moorgard, if you want to show us our Utility, then here's how it doesn't quite fit:</P> <P><STRONG><U>Rallying Cry/Demonstration of Faith/Martial Focus:</U></STRONG> <EM>Comparing the lines above, warriors and crusaders both get abilities that benefit the whole group. Brawlers get a self buff.</EM><BR> <BR><U><STRONG>Comments:</STRONG></U> A group oriented short term mitigation buff is pretty weak, especially now that damage spiking is much more spread out over the fight than before. There's few enough Melee attacks outside of Barrage that would be affected by this, at least that I've run across so the benefit of this, that of it being group, is watered down to the point of near uselessness, especially if people are doing their job and attacking the mob from behind to avoid riposte. It's only real benefit is as a taunt. Out of the choices listed above I'd much rather have the Monk's buff to strength and wisdom (assuming it lasts longer than 30s).<BR> <BR><STRONG><U>Suggestion:</U></STRONG> Tone the mitigation down by half but make it an 'Until Canceled' buff. Then it would actually be a useful group buff and not a taunt device.<BR> <BR><STRONG><U>Battle Tactics/Vigor of Trust/Rapid Swings:</U></STRONG> <EM>Warriors and crusaders have group buffs. Brawlers get an extra attack.<BR></EM> <BR><STRONG><U>Comments:</U></STRONG> I don't have any problems with this line because of the HP buff and how useful it is. What we're talking about here is a tangible benefit and you can see it when you apply this buff. Having our HPs increase by about 10% (Do or Die Master 2) is nothing to sniff at.<BR><STRONG><U> <BR>Suggestion:</U></STRONG> None<BR> <BR><U><STRONG>Call of Command (and other level 24 buffs):</STRONG> </U><EM>Guardians get a group defense buff, berserkers get a group offense buff, paladins get a health buff, shadowknights get a taunting damage shield, monks get self invisibility, and bruisers get a short mez.<BR> <BR></EM><STRONG><U>Comments:</U></STRONG> While an 'Until Canceled' buff, the benefit of it, to me at least, is simply as an offset to the negative effects of our Desperate Rush line (which decrease Defense while raising offense). In a group, the benefits are almost negligible, maybe a couple of % pts here or there. I can barely tell a difference when I have it up or down either way. As a group buff it's pretty weak since it provides that miniscule % increase to avoidance to everyone, a non-issue if you're doing your job as a Guardian and holding aggro like a good little tank.<BR> <BR><STRONG><U>Suggestion:</U></STRONG> Maybe have it act like a reverse proc, sort of like the HTL line, but make it give a 5% increase to mitigation for 10s. Mitigation is something we can hold on to and it makes more sense than a buff that increases avoidance. At least for Guardians.<BR> <BR><STRONG><U>Guardian Sphere (and other level 50 buffs):</U></STRONG> <EM>In the level 50 abilities, guardians again get something that protects their group. All other classes get some kind of attack.<BR></EM>  <BR><STRONG><U>Comments:</U></STRONG> Out of all the ones listed, the Guardian one seems to have the most utility but when you delve down into it, it becomes painfully clear that ours is the least used. Unless I'm in a group of casters, I really can't see a benefit to this because chances are we're not fighting things on a day-to-day basis that can one shot my entire group with a Barrage. And in a raid situation this would mean the death of the Guardian. Maybe as a throwaway member of the MT group (assuming the Guardian isn't the MT), taking one for the team so everyone else can survive.<BR> <BR><EM>"If you want to look for a theme or flavor for the class, you could say the guardian excels at protecting their group. The benefits of this are seen not when looking at the guardian in isolation, but rather when examining the effect they have on their entire party."<BR></EM> <BR>Except most of the tools we are given to do this are weak. Out of the ones you have listed, the HP buff is by far the most useful and the most tangible. Out of the ones you don't have listed, the HTL line serves a far greater purpose in protecting our group simply by giving us an easier time of holding aggro in both long fights and fights with multiple mobs.<BR> <BR>In short, give us useful utility that has a tangible benefit to the group. At least Berserkers can increase the offense of the group, allowing them to kill faster. Us being able to provide defense is only useful to us and then not much in a group situation (where others, healers especially, can provide it in a better way). What good is the mitigation and avoidance I'm providing to the Mage when I'm sitting there taking all the damage for the fight?</P>

[Wabit]

<P>so great what we are supposed to do is be in the MT group to buff the zerker, paly, SK, monk, bruiser and intervene on them (group only buffs)...</P> <P>or be in a dps group so we can umm be the one they toss their hate too, and play a damage shield so the mob that just turned on the assass that just hit a big assaniate can stay alive for a couple more hits while the epic mob barrages and riptoses the rest of the dps, and buff thier defence...  which if they are doing thier job correctly and the MT is is a non issue...</P> <P>a guardian needs a group to be efficent (no argument there, we can't heal, invis, evac, ect...)...  but we've now become what the enchanter classes used to be but even less that that...</P> <DIV>am i missing something here???  having a second tank in MT group really isn't that ideal to me...  other classes do it better, and they offer resists...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>next group i start i'm gonna tell the warlock that hes tanking now and i'll buff and intervene him, if i got utility i might as well use it right???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wabit</DIV>

[ThramFalc]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>First of all thanks for the reply Moorgard.  Guardians are pretty unhappy as a whole right now and its nice to know someone is listening even if they don't totally agree with our complaints.  I'm going to attempt to address your points and show where we feel there might be an issue or two.</FONT></P> <P>Moorgard wrote:<BR></P> <DIV>One of the things that makes guardians different from other fighters (their utility, if you will) is their ability to protect their group. No other fighter has as many ways to increase the defensive capabilities of their group and absorb a portion of the damage that hits them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>I see what you mean by this point and, on the surface, you are correct. However, consider that in a solid group with everyone doing their jobs, the tank is the only character that will be targetted or take a large portion of the damage.  In these cases, the best way to increase the defensive capabilities of the group as a whole is to increase the defensive capabilites of the tank individually.  Basically, if you have the best defensive tank, you have the best defensive group.  Thus, self buffs are just as viable as group buffs and because they tend to be larger in magnitude, they also tend to be more useful. Consider that a Guardians Defense buffs increase avoidance by 3% and our offensive buffs increase attack by about 2%.  Just because these bonuses are applied to everyone, its not valid to say we can multiply those % by 6.  Basically, Guardians feel that our group skill buffs do nothing. Granted, a guardian could protect the tank in a group, but is that really what our intended role is?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Warriors also have a greater number of abilities that include direct hate generation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>This only slightly makes up for our lack of DPS and heals/lifetaps that generate hate.  Warriors in no way have an overall agro advantage... far from it.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group buffs are sometimes easy to take for granted, maybe because they're not as instantly recognizable or flashy as something like Lay on Hands or Feign Death. That doesn't, however, make them any less valuable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>Call or Protection/Defense and Call to Battle/War have almost zero effect on overall group utility.  There is no other way to look at it.  I would much rather just buff avoidance and atk directly by some tangible percent (5-10%).  With or without these buffs parses look very similar.  Other classes do get more tangible effects... ie they show in parses and produce overall benefits of above 2-3%.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you compare entire spell lines for the fighter classes, you'll see that some professions are geared more toward enhancing the abilities of a group while others are more self-oriented. Guardians are arguably at the top of the group-oriented end of the spectrum while bruisers are at the other end. This difference does not make one clearly better than another; it's a matter of situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>This relates to above.  The entire group doesn't need defensive buffs if the main tank is the only one getting hit and this is how things are 90% of the time.  Furthermore, these also inherently makes Guardians weaker soloers.  If this is intended, then I guess we have to live with it, but its something a lot of us did not sign up for when we started a Guardian.  I am beginning to feel like Guardians are just intended to be buff bots or pseudo bards of some sort.  Our protections are nice, but they can be maintained while we go AFK.  We need to bring something else to the table, preferrably something that leads to us being good main tanks and not just a support class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The effect a class can have on a group is one factor of balance. When a guardian buffs the defense or health of an entire group, that's a bonus applied to up to five other people. Those benefits are measurable and cumulative; the more people the guardian groups with, the more who benefit from their presence.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>Like I say, our offensive buffs produce no parsable gain in DPS while other fighter offensive buffs have tangible effects.  Our defensive buffs only matter to the tank and are barely noticible.  Our mitigation buff is only up for 30 seconds and down for 90 seconds and isn't very significant <EM>when it is up</EM> compared to some of the self buffs out there.  Besides adding a few hps (not a big deal without CH spells) and protecting group members who may never even be hit, a Guardian brings little to the table.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>Furthermore, a Guardian has no real way of consistantly buffing mitigation besides using our defensive stance.  With our stance, mitigation tends to be just over 50%.  This seems pretty low for a <EM>mitigation based</EM> tank especially considering higher con mobs are hitting everyone for full anyways.  Meanwhile, avoidance based tanks can get their avoidance significantly higher than a Guradian's and the effects of doing so are more noticible.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>Plate tanks in general need to be able to mitigate significantly more damage than they currently do compared to classes in lesser armor.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>Guardians need group buffs that provide tangible benefits.  Throw comparisons aside... I don't like putting up 3 concentration buffs and not getting a noticible difference in my performance... I've parsed it to death... Our skill buffs (defensive and especially offensive) do nothing, our mitigation buff is so short it doesn't matter, our hp buff is mostly just for show and our new "Wall of ..." line only makes us worse overall.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff66>Maybe other classes also have useless buffs, I'm not entirely sure, but thats no excuse to leave things as they are.  Personally I would much rather have either a Zerkers regen or group berserk buffs over any buff we have.  Both of those provide significant and tangible bonuses that blow all guardian buffs out of the water.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Greyform]

I don't know if I am happy or sad MG posted here <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was happy to see he posted, I was sad that he thinks (my take on his post not his words) or seems to think that the guardian class is just fine the way it is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He plays a Bruiser from my understanding I might be wrong, but the Bruiser class is pretty well fine tuned right now, He knows that class knew how he felt it should play and it looks good. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We know our guardians we know how they should play I would hope he will look at what so many here are saying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks</DIV>

[Mentin]

<DIV>There are 3 factors tank class function is measured by:</DIV> <DIV>Defense: Guardians is at best just as good as the other fighter classes, but some numbers suggest the monk types actually take less sustained damage now.</DIV> <DIV>Offense: Guardians are at the bottom, period.</DIV> <DIV>Utility: Being able to buff others in a group setting does not have much value. Moorgard completely misses the target there. It is the melee buffs on the tank that counts, everything else is very very secondary. Guardian utility = low.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is how it was before revamp as well except guardians had a noticeable lead in Defense then, which made them worthwhile. Revamp removed that advantage without adding anything new. The guardian has suffered a massive loss in when compared to the other fighter types.  Shadowknights can evac, monks can invis, pallies can heal and ress, the list goes on. Guardians can nothing, and we dont lead the tanking game any more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some suggestions to even the playing field for guardians:</DIV> <DIV>* Make tower shields 20% block again</DIV> <DIV>* Increase the values of the guardian defensive stance</DIV> <DIV>* Give us some defense against spells and arts. Spell parry, spell mirror or somesuch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically I think the main 'utility' guardians should have is improved defenses.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Mentin on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:47 AM</span>

[SeattleSeven]

This ship is sinking fast.  Server numbers are down and declining faster and faster.  More people are leaving the game than are joining at an alarming rate, and THIS is the upgrade you've spent the last six months on to bring your numbers back up?  This is your expansion which is USELESS if you aren't 50th already?  Well done. C'mon Vanguard! <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Ahh very very good points there. yes as a guardian I can buff 3 people's in my group avoidance by a small amount with 3 different lines of buffs. However, how much do they help? vs a raid mob, any non-maintank dies in 1 hit period.. so no use there. In a group.. well, the tank shouldn't lose aggro. If his taunts are so weak he needs buffs to keep the group alive.. something is wrong with his taunts. So yes.. say I can give 10 defense to 6 people in my group. The only person it matters on is myself, so who cares? Why not have us self buff 20 defense? What do we bring to a raid or group? Worst fighter DPS.. yes we get group buffs.. but none matter that much. We have 3 lines (assauge, sebtry, vigaliance) that have very similar effects on the group. Why not combine 2 of them together, and turn the other into a self AC /hp buff? because ultimately.. the beefiest tank is what protects the group the best.. not "cute" spells which add .5% avoidance. I am not asking to be mad god tank, I am asking to be able to fufill a niche in the game.. that of beefytank. <div></div>

[ThramFalc]

<P>To prove the worthlessness of buffing group defense I think if you ask any Guardian if he would like a group buff for 12 defense or a self buff for 13 defense they would take the self buff. 12 defense on 5 other people is meaningless.  </P> <P>The same goes for our lame 30 second mitigation buff... and we shouldnt even call it a buff since its barely ever up and barely ever a factor.  Oh and can everyone please stop saying it creates agro or is in any way an effective taunt.  Commanding Presence hasn't had any significant agro component since before LU 13.  1 melee hit will pull agro off me if I only cast commanding presence.</P> <P>So how about it?  Double our buffs and make them self only.  Also, make offensive skills matter at least a little... Right now, doubling Call to Battle/War still would do nothing.</P>

[Moontayle]

It does create aggro because I use it from time to time just for that reason alone. I'd be duoing with my wife and something would come off from the side and aggro her, so I'd cast that to get the mob on me without having to switch targets and then let Maddening Defense do the work of keeping aggro. I agree, it's a crappy way to get aggro but that is a use for it.

[Hirf]

So not only have I been turned into a sub-par tank, I'm supposed to be some kind of ineffectual buff-bot?  And like it? Honestly, I'm not a happy customer.  I signed on as a Guardian because I wanted to tank.  I watched my friend play EQ2, I read his manual, I liked the description of the Guardian, so I bought the game and made one.  All I wanted to do was tank, and that was pretty much all I could do, and I was happy. Now, I'm not happy.  All I wanted to do was be a great tank, so I picked what looked like the obvious tanking class.  Big shields, heavy armor, tank.  Now, I'm a buff-bot?  And a really bad-buff bot?  Not what I signed up for, not even close.<span></span>  SoE can think what they want about Guardians, but I as a customer feel like I have been wronged.  I'd like to be a real tank again, or failing that, I'd like some real utility.<div></div>

[Krooner]

<P>Moorguard.</P> <P>I agree with Tunaboo.</P> <P>Given the current game design and mechanics our line of buffs for the mobs we fight as groups are inadiquate.</P> <P>400 HP is nothing now that regen has been nerfed for everyone and the mobs are hitting more often and stunning more often.</P> <P>The tiny defense that our buffs give goes right out the window with the first one arrow up even con mob we fight.</P> <P>If it is as you say, that our buffs are there to help and protect the group, then they to be geared to an average group.</P> <P>Your base line solid groups are not going out and hunting their level.  They go out and pick on the tougher content.  That means a solid group is fighting things 2 or even 3 levels about the members average level.  At the con range out buffs are useless.</P> <P>I know what your going to say.  Its suppose to be cumulative.  And as I and tons of other tanks are telling you they arnt enough.</P> <P>Please just dont look at the numbers on some spread sheet or play one or two levels of a certain class.  Take a peek inside the game.  Look at whats going on with the group.  Do a little bit of people watching and it wont take long for you to see the problems were talking about.</P> <P>All were asking for is to put a little extra personal touch on the matter and look at your customers.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks for the reply.</P> <P> </P> <P>Mauldred</P> <P>51 Guardian 51 Provisioner</P> <P> </P>

[Auberon_Feykin]

I'm a scout, so I appologize for disturbing your discussion, however I'd like to point something out: once upon a time it helped me to have the guardian toss an intervene line up on me because if on the off chance I drew aggro (in my reguar group I was the most likely candidate) I couldn't take more than a couple seconds of combat.  After the revamp with my avoidance and mitigation and HP (Swashies got a bonus there as well) I don't really die that fast.  Sure, against orange mobs, but against yellows I can tank the whole fight (and yes, the healers have to work harder, but it's not like they have power problems) and put out 2x the damage of a guardian that is standing behind the mob.  In other words, excluding my flanking attacks full-time (I can still use my stun for example). Try it some time.  It's embarassing for the guardian.  Take a ^^^ 2-3 levels higher and throw your scout at it.  Give them 5 seconds to build aggro.  Kill the mob.  No problems. YES Guardians can tank better!  YES they have abilities that are useful!  NO this is still not balanced!  (We let the guardians tank even though we have the monks and zerkers and paladins . . . because otherwise they're doing NOTHING in the groups.) I also wonder how these group/ally spells help the guardians to solo. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> <div>If you compare entire spell lines for the fighter classes, you'll see that some professions are geared more toward enhancing the abilities of a group while others are more self-oriented. Guardians are arguably at the top of the group-oriented end of the spectrum while bruisers are at the other end. This difference does not make one clearly better than another; it's a matter of situation.</div> <div> <font color="#9933ff">    When a bruiser buffs his own stats to the point where he generates almost twice the DPS of a comparably equipped guardian, he generates enough extra hate that he provides his group with far more safety than the Guardian does with all his direct taunts and protection spells.  That's a broken mechanic.  There should be a trade-off for the rest of the group when using an offensive tank that does more damage.  Currently, offensive tanks can hold single-target aggro much more reliably than guardians.  Even though brawler abilities may, on paper, appear to be more self-oriented, they are in fact more beneficial to the group than a guardian's more "group-oriented" abilities.</font> </div> <div>The effect a class can have on a group is one factor of balance. When a guardian buffs the defense or health of an entire group, that's a bonus applied to up to five other people. Those benefits are measurable and cumulative; the more people the guardian groups with, the more who benefit from their presence.</div> <div> </div><font color="#9933cc">    That is a disingenuous statement, to say the least.</font><b>  </b><font color="#9933cc">Those benefits are *not* cumulative unless all members of the party are tanking equally or continually facing barrages, AE's, etc..  The overwhelming majority of the time, just one player in a given group is taking the majority of the damage, so the effect of those group buffs is really only measureable by what it does for *one* player.  If a guardian is tanking, those buffs are essentially self-buffs, since he will hopefully have aggro most of the time or be dead.   In the former case, the utility of those defensive buffs can only be measured by what they do for the guardian himself.  In the latter case, with the Guardian dead, his buffs will no longer be up and will provide no benefit whatsoever to the rest of the group.   For this reason, you cannot balance group vs. self-only buffs in the way you are describing.   Stronger self-buffs on a tank who is holding aggro benefit a group far more than group buffs do when aggro is spread out over priests, bards, etc..   </font> <hr></blockquote> </span><div></div>

[Moontayle]

<P>How do you know when you're class has it bad?</P> <P><EM>When other classes come in here and say, "Man, you've got it pretty bad."</EM></P>

[Exill]

Did Moorgard conveniently forget about this one? <img src="http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/572/stirringcry6er.jpg"> <div></div>

[Exill]

<div></div>I guess none of these count as utility spells either: <img src="http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/6314/utility2vk.jpg"> Edit: Almost forgot the heal! <img src="http://img395.imageshack.us/img395/2500/heal0ta.jpg"> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Exill on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:11 AM</span>

[Exill]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>The avoidance of wearing light armor along with the mitigation as if wearing plate: <img src="http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9875/mitigationbuffs1gs.jpg"> <p>Message Edited by Exill on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:59 AM</span>

[phlebas]

<P>/agree Tunaboo</P> <P>This isnt about comparing tanks with tanks, its about making Guardians worth playing, hay even fun to play again.  I dont even bother to try and taunt mobs off the scouts now if they let loose with high DPS to soon they can tank just fine, very depressing.</P> <P>Phlebas 51 Guardian  </P> <p>Message Edited by phlebas on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:06 AM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

What Moorgard has described here as being utility...doesnt do anything for me when im soloing or in a small group where im the only fighter.  Brawler and Crusador "utility" very much helps them solo and contributes to the success of small groups. <div></div>

[Skha]

Exill, you forgot we can mez too (18 sec duration 30 sec recast). <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[Exill]

<span><blockquote><hr>Skharr wrote:Exill, you forgot we can mez too (18 sec duration 30 sec recast). <span>:smileywink:</span> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I didn't forget. I was only posting abilities which Moorgard "forgot" to list in his post. And he posted that one <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> It seems even Moorgard is trying to downplay brawlers to be so much less then they actually are. He failed to mention many of their best key spells which I have listed above.</span><div></div>

[Prufro]

<DIV>Moorgard, please tell me you're kidding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So my "utility" as a guardian is to give the priest 400 more hp.  Well guess what? I'm a TANK! If i do my job, the priest doesn't need 400HP, i don't need to protect the priest from damage he takes, because i am taking all of the damage. ALL OF IT!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Group buffs are what casting classes bring to a group, not tank classes.  Tanks are selfish, they buff themselves to keep themselves alive, they don't care about anyone else, they just want to get the crap beat out of them.  At the same time they're the opposite of selfish because by completely buffing themselves and getting beat on they are protecting the entire group from taking any damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't need some lame utility to take damage from a priest IF he gets his, because i wont let him get hit.  As a 32 guardian i apply these buffs to my priest, but only in the rare occasion that a mob does an aoe ability and it happens to proc do those abilities even get used, and they're worthless because that ability would have only done maybe 10% of the damage of the priest and would have been regenerated long before another attack.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no reason at all for a tank to have protection and group buffs for everyone else.  I should be buffing myself all the way.  This is something WoW has done extremely well, the tank does everything for himself, not for everyone else, and that's how tanks have been in virtually every other game in existence, and that's how every single other tank class is but guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are completely boring, every guardian feels they are completely boring, and you insult our request for utility so we're not boring by claiming we have utility it's just group buffs.  Oh great, hitting a button once to buff the group sure made my class less boring, wahoo, lets party.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the devs continue to ignore us and my class continues to not be able to do anything in this game, to the dismay of guildmates and my dedicated group, i'm done with this.  It's insulting to me to be completely ignored and told foolish ideas like we have utility we just don't see it.  You've proven you're not even listening, you're just sitting their with your ideas and loving your changes like they are gods gift to this game, and we, as a guardian community, are saying your changes are good in most places, but a complete and utter mess for us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You made your fighter archetypes with a clear initial goal, you can find that in the eq2 manual.  Now you're revamped that, but you didn't fix the classes that were part of that initial goal.  Instead you took all fighter classes and made them tank equally without removing/adding anything, so now where guardian was before a tank and that's it, he is now just another tank, and still... that's it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm bored with playing a guardian.  I don't want to be bored anymore.  What will it take for you to understand this?</DIV>

[jinxedup]

<P>LAFF</P> <P>You poor little guardians-- if you wanted a "utility" tank instead of a "main" tank you should have rolled one-- now go cry in the corner and stop annoying everyone else with your worthless rants-- hows it feel now that the shoe is on the other foot tuna et al?</P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Simpley put Im tired bored and disgusted with my class, I lead the second largest and most powerful guild on my server, and Im probably leaving the game shortly, esp since we seem to get no love from the Devs, or moorguard apparently.</P> <P>I got excited when I saw he posted and I thought someone had noticed our plight, but from reading the post seems we are considered fine the way we are.  Im tired of posting and waiting, this is ridiculous and I will not be renewing my account unless in the next 30days or so Guards are made interresting/usefull/important again.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Prufro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> jinxedup wrote:<BR> <P>LAFF</P> <P>You poor little guardians-- if you wanted a "utility" tank instead of a "main" tank you should have rolled one-- now go cry in the corner and stop annoying everyone else with your worthless rants-- hows it feel now that the shoe is on the other foot tuna et al?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ahh, a troll.  Well, you obviously didn't read any of the posts.  And you don't realize that now every fighter is a main tank, not just guardians, but guardians are the worst.

[jinxedup]

so?-- you were best before and loved it, now you are the worst and hate it-- too bad, its called karma, now suck on it until the next major release in about 1 year or so when everything will be turned upside down again-- till then [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Aven Elonis]

<P>Hmm, scary is all I can say.  "Really you have utilities as good as other fighter classes" Moorgard </P> <P>Pre- CU Guardians had a disadvantage while solo. low dps <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> No really advantage vs other tanks in a group.</P> <P>Pre- CU Guardians were good at tanking a raid.  (Either as MT or MA) This was our role, it was a pain to get to 50, but once we got there, we finally had a useful role in the overall game - Raids.</P> <P> If I do my job right, I take all the damage in the melee damage in a raid. If I don't, it is generally because I died, and all the buffs/utilities I had drop. The whole line of "Damage to Me" Spells (Guardian Sentry, etc) have served no practical use to date. Pre-CU, I didn't even brother putting them on a hotbar. Post-CU, I have them on the hotbar, but my trials with them so far suggest I'll take them off the hotbar again.</P> <P>I should be able to absorb damage better than other classes. Right now, I see pets doing better than Guardians as a tank. How many mages asking for tanks lately. In fact several players have figured out the Guardians give little to the group and therefore when we get invited - it is either due to being a guild group or charity.</P> <P>Guardians need to be looked at again by the development team. I've seen some good suggestions on this thread.</P> <P>Aven Elonis</P> <P>51 Guardian, Steamfont, Tempest</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gladesman]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>My hubby told me that Moorguard posted here and my first response was: "Great! So he's acknowledging the current issues with my class?"</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Then he told me what was posted.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I find it actually a little offensive that it's a almost an attempt at lecturing the players who've made the effort to think of solutions to make the guardian a useful class again, a class that contributes and belongs in the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Yes, we all realise that this "protecting" thing is our business, but the cold fact is that with this revamp "protecting" is unnecessary as even skirts and pyjama's are able to tank the non-epic content (and maybe they can tank that hard stuff too, it's just that my guild has not raided yet) just fine. So, our main purpose is non-existant in the current game environment, our DPS still sucks (yeah, we got an increase.. and so did every other fighter as well, let's not forget that!) AND we still lack any real utility skills to begin with (comparing our watered-down buffs to arts and spells that really do something for solo as well as multiplayer situations is just not right).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Like I said in another post: I sucked up not having any "cool" "fun" "handy" arts and I sucked up not having DPS worth mentioning for the first 50 levels because I tanked (and thus GUARDED) quite well and better than the other "real" tanks (ie: zerkers and crusaders). I sucked up not being able to solo like many other classes, because I had this advantage in tanking and eventhough other fighters (mainly the brawlers) kept complaining here on the forums about: "guardians always get to tank", for your everyday regular exp groups guardians weren't very desirable already. The only times I really felt as if my class contributed and belonged in the game was when I was MT-ing for a raidforce. And yeah, that made it worthwile enough to not come here on a daily basis and complain my behind off about all the other holes in my class. I wish I had. I really wish I had. Lord knows every other class did and look where it got them..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>And now, when even a blind person can see that guardians have been nerfed to hell and back, a dev comes in and tells us that we did and still do have utility and a purpose without even investigating the issues that have been brought up numerous times? Really, what does listing our spells do if you haven't looked at how the game is now being played? Yes, why don't you list our buffs and "protection" spells and make it sound as if they're good for something while everybody knows that they are completely obsolete? That's really not a meaningful contribution to a solution of the current problems! It's not as if it's just a "feeling", NUMEROUS people from other classes have stated here and in other places that the guardian class has been made redundant for the majority of the game's content. The guardian is not the preferred tank anymore AND this line of protection spells is NOT desired and/or needed by anybody (not in group AND not while soloing). So, why would anybody want to have a guardian in their group? You guessed it: they don't. So, how is soloing fun for us? You guessed it: it isn't! It's really just that simple. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>So yeah, I'm ticked off by this type of "response" from SOE (I'm not jumping on the "MG is an evil bruiser" bandwagon, because he's only doing his job.. no need to get personal) while they could've just said: 'we're looking into it, we recognise there's a problem and we'll get back to you within a week when we have investigated the issues'. Don't they think I haven't been looking at my own CAs thoroughly since DoF came out? If I wanted to re-read my own spells and abilities I could've just looked under the "Warrior-Guardian" guide section on the site.. really. </FONT></DIV>

[Milthon]

<P>So what your saying is a guardian is worse than the other tanks in every way unless he sucks and can't hold agro, in that case he can still absorb some of the damage.</P> <P>Wow, your right, that is some amazing utility.</P> <P>What tank would your rather have solo?</P> <P>Duo?</P> <P>Trio?</P> <P>Full group?</P> <P>I can't see any reason you would chose the guardian, none at all.  If the thing that guardian's specialize in is an utterly useless ability, what is the point.</P> <P>Now if it had been this way since the opening days of Beta than I would have no issue with it, if you sucked from the start and still continued to play your lame [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class well you have nothing to complain about.</P> <P>However, if you played your class till level 50 under one set of rules and now your gimped.  You certainly have something to complain about.  I am not asking to be better than any other tank at the core role of tanking.  I could care less.  It would be nice to at least be equivalent however.</P> <P>Remove the lame [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] protect line and replace it with something useful, like a direct ac buff.</P> <P>How can the devs not see that the entire protect line for a tank is only useful when you have failed at your main job as the tank in the first place, holding agro.</P>

[Greyform]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Milthon wrote:<BR> <P>So what your saying is a guardian is worse than the other tanks in every way unless he sucks and can't hold agro, in that case he can still absorb some of the damage.</P> <P>Wow, your right, that is some amazing utility.</P> <P>What tank would your rather have solo?</P> <P>Duo?</P> <P>Trio?</P> <P>Full group?</P> <P>I can't see any reason you would chose the guardian, none at all.  If the thing that guardian's specialize in is an utterly useless ability, what is the point.</P> <P>Now if it had been this way since the opening days of Beta than I would have no issue with it, if you sucked from the start and still continued to play your lame [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] class well you have nothing to complain about.</P> <P>However, if you played your class till level 50 under one set of rules and now your gimped.  You certainly have something to complain about.  I am not asking to be better than any other tank at the core role of tanking.  I could care less.  It would be nice to at least be equivalent however.</P> <P>Remove the lame [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] protect line and replace it with something useful, like a direct ac buff.</P> <P>How can the devs not see that the entire protect line for a tank is only useful when you have failed at your main job as the tank in the first place, holding agro.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree, if my guardian was like this from the beginning, I would have said hmm oh well I guess I have to give up being a guard and try something else. But he wasn't he was fun so I continued to play him and build him to where he is now.</P> <P>Now 10 months later I have to make a decision I should have been faced with when I STARTED my class? play a guard or a different class or a different game.</P> <P>MG come on man open you eyes, No way can anyone for one second justify that type game change 10 months after people have spent their time and money on a product.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong I am not saying turn back the clock but you just can't neuter a class and expect them to be happy about it.</P> <P>It took years for EQ1 to fix warriors, I do not want to wait years for EQ2 to fix Guards.</P> <P>Please add our Shield AC to our Mitigation, increase the amount of avoidance it gives us by a little and up our taunting.</P> <P>I suggested adding an AEtaunt to Maddening Defense strong enough to get the mobs on us for that spell to do it's job.</P> <P>Thanks.</P>

[Gladesman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Greyform wrote:<BR> <P>Please add our Shield AC to our Mitigation, increase the amount of avoidance it gives us by a little and up our taunting.</P> <P>I suggested adding an AEtaunt to Maddening Defense strong enough to get the mobs on us for that spell to do it's job.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>That's still not going to make a guardian a desired class again as there are other <STRIKE>fighters</STRIKE> tanks out there who can do the tanking job AND have DPS / real utility <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>SOE believed that all fighters should be able to tank within roughly 10% of eachother (assumption, don't pin me to it, just using it as an example). Now, let's say that even if we get that 10% advantage over a brawler. That advantage is cancelled and just plain overruled by the massive difference in DPS. And then that monk has FD / self-heal / safe-fall etc. to chip in as well. Can you see us going: "HEY! HEY! We have a 30 sec defensive buff, helloooo!! surely you'll take that over the extra DPS and utility!?!?"</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Not to be a pessimist, but SOE is not going to turn back the tanking abilities of the other fighters, so even if we get that slight advantage it doesn't do us any good for 95% of the time. The only thing I think we can ask for is for SOE to g</FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2>ive us <STRONG>at least</STRONG> the same tanking abilities (and preferrably a small advantage), an increase in DPS plus some unique utility spells tossed in. Nothing more, nothing less. </FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Gladesman on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:46 PM</span>

[Greyform]

<P>I think it may make us more useful if we had better Mit and avoidance, if you added the AC to our over all Mitigation and say 10% more avoidance to our shields (Kite shields as well Palys also need some real help) then in a normal exp group we could be in offensive mode and still take damage and we could use defensive mode for the big mobs.</P> <P>AEtaunt  on Maddening Defense would insure that that spell was able to work as intended. The only catch there is we would still want to be able to toggle it like we do now but I guess there would need to be a refresh component to the AE portion.</P> <P> </P> <P>to me this would fix my guard to my satisfaction. even though I do have to agree with the many many posters who say our utility buffs really do not do much in the over all group but for now I just want to be a tank that a group would at least want.</P> <P> </P> <P>Brawlers are the best group tank atm and from what I am reading pets are next in that line.</P>

[Arsen]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:<div></div>Well our group buffs provide MITIGATION. Right now vs yellow or above, mitigation is so toned down, it is useless. As our all the defense buffs we get.. the DEFENSE skill in any reasonable group is utterly useless past a 50 point buff mark. So while its find and dandy to give us a bunch of buffs.. we buff DEFENSE and MITIGATION, neither of which does anything on the mobs a scout can't already tank just fine. So as a gaurdian, i give 500 hp to the group. I am trading that for being a bruiser who does 3x the dps and tanks equally? That is not fair OR balanced. Guardians are meant to be maintanks. Not buffbots with useless buffs, that is a troubador. We need to SELF buff ac and defense and other more meaningful things. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class="date_text">09-23-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:47 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Well Said. </span><div></div>

[ke'la]

Howabout single group buff that Incresses the Parties Mitigation(that way squishies like my main can take a hit or two from an Heroic Add) while procing hate for the guardian everytime a party member is hit.  This would make it far easier for the guardian to protect that Nuke Happy caster as IF the caster does get hit they have more Mitigation then they normaly would AND the Guardian gets to move up the hate scale without having to taunt(just incase there down). It would also be part of the "Falavor" as it is the guardians job to guard(as in provide protection). I also think for the rare occations that the guard is the Off tank there should be an Armor Grant buff that you can put on someone else that grants the guardian an Attack speed buff.  I mean come on if your used to waring that heavy armor and and that extreely heavy tower shield, if you gave some of it to someone else wouldn't you move faster or maybe better yet have more Str you can devote to swinging your weopons?

[dparker7]

<P>Of all the posts by Moorgard Ive read, that was probably the worst Ive seen, and he's had some completely absurd posts in the past.</P> <P>Does he even think before he types?</P>

[ThramFalc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exill wrote:<BR>Did Moorgard conveniently forget about this one?<BR><BR><IMG src="http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/572/stirringcry6er.jpg"><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Perfect example of how other classes get a tangible bonus to DPS while we get a stupid offensive skill buff that buffs ATK by 2% yielding no change in DPS.  This bruiser buff is infinately better than Call to Battle/War.

[ThramFalc]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exill wrote:<BR> The avoidance of wearing light armor along with the mitigation as if wearing plate:<BR><BR><IMG src="http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9875/mitigationbuffs1gs.jpg"><BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Exill on <SPAN class=date_text>09-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Guardians are the mitigation based tanks... not brawlers.  How about you swap these two arts with our two defense buffs (Call of Prot/Def and Wall of Brawn).  Thus Guardians can have the useful mitigation buffs like we should and Brawlers can raise their avoidance a little more (even though its already ridiculously high).</P> <P>I realize both these buffs have drawbacks but I can already see ways around them and the benefits are simply huge.  Meanwhile our current slate of buffs have no downside, but do nothing anyways.</P>

[Manyak]

<DIV>Im not a guard, but im defiantely heated with this nerf. Guards HAVE become useless. Theres a post in this forum by SixMains that disproves their ability to tank as well as anyone else, where i wrote a long post about this too...so if u wanna read it feel free cuz i dont feel like rewriting everyhing again <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as far as the group buff value? If the tank (even if not a guardian) is holding aggro like he should be, then theres no reason for any of these buffs. No reason to intercept damage, no reason to increase DPS (since in raids the MT group doesnt do DPS anyway), and no reason to self-buff anything. Oh joy, guards can increase a groups HP by 500. Thats what zerkers are for. Well, at least they WERE for that before DoF.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guards are now useless. Havign a guard in a raid will not help at all, no matter WHAT he does. If he protecting the group with guardian sphere, and a big AoE hits, then hes dead, and by the time hes rezzed and recasts buffs, the AoE will hit again, and the entire group will be dead anyway. NONE of these buffs have absolutely ANY usefulness in combat situations. None at all. Sure the protection buffs do something....cant argue with that. But there is never a case where they can be used effectively.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-----------------</DIV> <DIV>Manyak - 52 Illusionist</DIV>

[LordIronfist]

<DIV>Just because he ain't saying the things u wanna hear he haven't been thinking? Wow, that's giving Moorgard lotsa credit!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is what I think happened:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The designers/programmers have thought things thru preDof over and over and come up with something like this: Guardians are too powerful sending the others to the sideline. </DIV> <DIV>What can be done about that when DoF is launched?</DIV> <DIV>Of course changes has to be done (read nerf if u want to here). I read striving to make all tanks almost equals. The differences being how the job is done, not by whom who does it. It will surely be a painful transition for the Guardians, but necessary for the bigger picture. (all tanks wanna take part).</DIV> <DIV>Do we wanna go thru with this knowing that Guardian community will send us tons and tons with posts saying how broken they have become? </DIV> <DIV>Answer: Yes. (obviously!)</DIV> <DIV>SOE can't stick with things as they are when cold facts remain. Guardians where overpowered! (U can say all u want here that Guardians have no utilities like others had, the description said something about Guardians being the most defensive,  yadda yadda .....) </DIV> <DIV>Facts remains that other tank classes were reduced to buff-bots. The very same thing you yourselves don't want to become. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't say I was sorry when I read Moorgards post. He was merely sticking to their plan ironing out the huge differences from preDof to make sure all have a chance to contribute. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Face it! Guardians overpowered days are over, start adapting to the new gameplay and go from there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>//Lord Ironfist</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>PS No, I'm NOT playing monk/bruiser!!!! DS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by LordIronfist on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Gotta love the non guards coming in and telling guardians that they shouldnt let SOE know they made this class unfun and useless.  We all know how well informed THEY are on the subject.  Never ceases to amaze me on how many people will speak continuously, even tho they are completely ignorant to the situation.</P> <P>Does Lordironfist know anything about guardians Post Nerf??...apparently not, does that stop him from posting??? apparently not.  Do other classes come in here, and post about a subject they know nothing about??  Looks that way.</P> <P>Perhaps Lordironfist you should stick to posting about something you know at least a small bit about then you wouldnt look like such and "ignorant" person.</P> <P>There are countless facts and numbers that show how the plate classes are gimped at the moment, and even most Monks/Bruisers see it, but Im sure YOU know better then all the hard numbers produced.  The game stands now at a point where People are leaving in droves, due to the problems with Plate classes and other bugs that came out with the expansion.  Every server, EVERY single server is running on "light" right now, so you can keep talking about how the game was fixed by LU13, and you can even keep saying it as servers start to combine, and guilds start to break up, and more and more people leave...because you are OBVIOUSLY more informed on this subject as all the Guardians level 50+ posting intelligent responses trying to help SOE keep the game alive.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Burningho]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> LordIronfist wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Face it! Guardians overpowered days are over, start adapting to the new gameplay and go from there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>That is exactly what most of us guardians are trying to do.  The fact remains that we are now no better than any other fighter class at tanking, but have less dps and far far far less utility.  That is not balance.  We are not asking to be overpowered, we are asking to be equal and to be unique in some way just like everyone else.</DIV>

[Gladesman]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>So. I can conclude that SK's are also way overpowered because they are the only ones that could life-tap?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>That is sidelining me!! Unfair!! Unfair I tell you.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Tanking is a guardians job, it was and is our ONLY ability. Since when does every fighter have to be a good tank? When did this concept became the truth? Well, it did with DoF and this means that the guardians function is being shared with others. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Your reasoning doesn't hold any ground: So what if we were the best tanks <FONT size=1>(and not by such a landslide that everybody claims it was: a solo guardian and a solo zerker and a pally were quite close in stats. The buffs from others and reactives made guardians powerful tanks more than our own stats and buffs.)</FONT>? You were the best (and only) life-tapper, pally's have the best heals out of all fighters, brawlers have the best DPS and zerkers were similar to guards + their berserk line (extra DPS).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I realise that tanking is all that makes your world spin and you feel you've been done horribly wrong because you've never been MT on a raid, but ALL fighters had quite decent tanking skills already and as I chose a warrior and then a guardian it was my darn perogative to be the best of the best when it came to tanking - simply because that was all I could and can do. My class was designed to be nothing BUT a tank. And yes, we were EXCELLENT and UNIQUE at it, just like you are EXCELLENT and UNIQUE in other abilities.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Tanking is NOT all there is to this game, it's one of many many things that needs to be done. Healing and DPS-ing and utility are just as much a part of the game as tanking is and until people like you will get that we will still be in this superstupid argument. I chose a guardian, I chose a REAL tank. You chose a SK: a fighter with above average tanking skills and special abilities. How is it fair that you would be just as good as me at my class defining ability? Why would you expect this? I just don't get it.. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>That other people praise or credit the tank doesn't mean that other classes do not have their own specific valuable traits and characteristics. Think about it. What defined my class is now something that all other fighters have as well and I was in no way compensated for losing my ONLY corner of the market. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I can handle not being the only tank anymore (not that we ever were as zerkers and crusaders were pretty good as well), but I can't handle people like you telling me I should not care about the fact that my class has been demolished and that my class was so overpowered. We were powerful in tanking and rightfully so: we were meant to be the best tanks out there when the game was released!!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Maybe I am the only guardian that can accept the new tanking ideas brought to the table by SOE; I believe there's still some fixing to do, because as of right now the guard is tanking below par. But with my acceptance </FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I also expect SOE to make my class desirable to play and group with again by giving us the DPS and utility that now make people favour the other fighters over us. </FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gladesman on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 PM</span>

[sliderhouserules]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:<div></div>... Guardians are meant to be maintanks....<hr></blockquote>No they're not, FIGHTERS are meant to be main tanks. Get off your high horse.</span><div></div>

[sliderhouserules]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gladesman wrote:...<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">Tanking is a guardians job, it was and is our ONLY ability. Since when does every fighter have to be a good tank? When did this concept became the truth? ...</font></div><div><font face="Verdana" size="2">I chose a guardian, I chose a REAL tank. ... How is it fair that you would be just as good as me at my class defining ability? Why would you expect this? I just don't get it.. </font></div> ...<div><font face="Verdana" size="2">We were powerful in tanking and rightfully so: we were meant to be the best tanks out there when the game was released!!</font></div> ...<hr></blockquote>This crap honestly just floors me... </span><span>You have heard of archetypes, right? Don't make me quote you a definition or link all the posts from devs stating the archetype philosophy. I know you're not that stupid.</span> <span> I'm not in here trolling because I think Guardians are fine where they're at. My friend has a 50 guard that he doesn't have much fun playing anymore, and I have some sympathy for that. Many of you have made the same points. But come on, this thread is rife with this kind of propaganda bull[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. I linked to this thread from the Dev Tracker, came in here to read with an open mind, even sympathy for the Guardians' position; but now I'm leaving with the very strong impression that Guardians are whiny, elitist and stuck in an EQ1 tune-the-game-for-raids kind of mentality. That kind of mentality is exactly why I left EQ1 *years* ago. I find myself agreeing with the idea that maybe Guardians *do* need to be bottom of the heap for a while. Wake the hell up guys and gals.</span><div></div>

[Gladesman]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sliderhouserules wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR></SPAN><SPAN>Wake the hell up guys and gals.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>If you would've read any of my other posts on this forum you would realise that the post you're quoting from is nothing more than a direct response to a non-constructive bite in the wrong direction. In all my other posts I've pleaded for other things like DPS and utlity than just to be the best tank standing on a platform that nodboy could touch - I've never argued that we should go back to the old situation and I'm not bitter just because I am not the preferred tank anymore..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I've never considered myself to be the ONLY tank. Far from it actually. But what I am protesting against is the fact that guardians used to be the best tanks and this trait made them desirable to group and play with. It gave us a much needed advantage over the other fighters as they all could tank reasonably well (brawlers less than plate-tanks, but with their DPS it balanced out quite well imho) AND had other skills that were and are still considered desirable for solo as well as normal group content. Now that all the other fighter types have had their tank abilities increased our characteristic and sole ability (tanking) has become common thus making the guardian the least favourable choice for a group and the least effective solo-er. (The fact that we're now the "worst" tank of all the fighters, is a completely different discussion because that's just a bug that will be fixed imho)</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I am absolutely fine with a bruiser or a sk tanking Darathar, really. I have accepted this revamp and redirection for the fighter classes, I have just not accepted the fact that the guardian class has been made redundant. That's all. Look at my post and read it again: I'm just stating the facts as they were pre-revamp.. whether you liked it or not, it was just the way it was and how it was played out by SOE: I gave up DPS and utility to be able to tank like I did. Did brawlers and crusaders give up most of their DPS/utility to be able to tank similar to me now? You guessed it: no. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Just because this pre-revamp situation was never the intention of SOE doesn't make it right to now just make the class that they first made "uber-tank" the least useful tank/fighter of them all? (and as it stands now, least useful and least interesting class of the game.. there's nothing a guardian can contribute that another fighter can not (except for a couple of measly buffs that nobody is interested in)).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I wonder when YOU will wake up and see that tanking is NOT all it's hyped up to be: it was merely the only thing a guardian was best at. Other than tanking we were and are completely useless.  It baffles me that so many people find tanking apparently more important than anything else and feel as if they're not contributing anything if they do not tank.  Bashing guardians because they were the best tanks pre-revamp is just stupid if you'd know what else a guardian contributes to the game in total: NOTHING. I'm sorry, I can't put it anymore simplistic than that.</FONT></DIV>

[blueduckie]

Slider have you heard of archtype system fool? What is a scouts main role. DPS. They dont all dps equal. So you think all fighters need to be equal because then youll feel useless when it isnt true. Bards have horrible flat out horrible dps. However they contribute to a group so much. Rogues dont do as much dmg as predators but they have good uses to. Mages same way. They screwed warlocks unless doing group mobs but still. Ive seen warlock parsing 2400 dps on a group of 4 dmg. Wasnt single killed either. Dies fast but that is what they can do on groups of 4. So here you are claiming fighters need to. Reactivs in healing own regens big time on raids and with defense nerf. Owns wards to IMO with aggro you lose from wards. Reactives are the most stable healing. So i dont see where all is fair etc in main roles. But yopur telling me your floor'd if we arnt? Thats stupid ridiculous and not what the game has done at all with other classes. So cry me a river IMO SOE should fix this.

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammarus wrote:<BR> <P>THE fundamental problem is this!  <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>W.T.F. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>do you need so many tanks for?</FONT></STRONG>  I mean really, what for?  What do they contribute?  What does one extra tank add to a group that a dps, utility, or healer class doesn't, better yet, to a raid.  </P> <P><STRONG><FONT size=4>One mob=(one tank/aggro controller+healing+dps)</FONT></STRONG> </P> <P>Ok maybe two tanks in those rare raid situations where you need one to peel off the adds. </P> <P> I mean come-on, just look at the composition of any botter crew and ask yourself; why does this group consist of one tank, one healer, and 4 mage classes, (<EM>scouts are dps/utility, but not included in bot crews because they are complex characters and are hard to play as bots <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></EM> )?</P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#669900>If SOE can find an answer to this issue, then I feel all tank classes can find a position on the battlefield.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Message Edited by Hammarus on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:32 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Woot!!!! You are so right

[Poochymama]

<P>BTW that was a great post Moorgard.</P> <P>Guardians have about the best group utility of all the fighters atm.</P>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As for our level 50 "utility spell" since your a developer of this game can you do me a favor and rename that spell suicide please because that's what it is, even in the master version of the buff, how many of the guardians here regularly use this spell?  I've used it 3 times before the revamp once after, the three times I used it before the revamp I died because it wasn't mitigated to the guardian's stats, the time after I used it in an effort to save a mage and guess what it didn't work, what saved him ironically was a taunt not our "utility."  I understand guardians are there to help the defensive capabilities of a group, but common guardian sphere basically sets us up so we're "taking one for the team" from my point of view.  Imo this is the most useless spell we guardians get in the game.  And compared to the stuff I see that the other classes have to offer (ie despoiling mist and savage blows) I'd say they got it quite good right now.</P> <P>As for call of defense here's a question for you?  Why is the level 38 version (adept 3 / 12 defense) stronger then the 52 version which is call of defense?  I believe around 14, btw the apprentice 2 version of this spell gives only 11.1, now if defense was useful, which it isn't now, I'd be complaining more but I'm going to be nice.</P> <P>Here's some ideas you might consider...</P> <P>A mitigation buff that lasts longer than 30 seconds, I mean why not we're mitigation tanks, we have a defensive stance yes, but since our job seems to be that of a tank who can help the defensive capabilities of a party you'd think this would be there...</P> <P>A ranged attack for pulling, yes we're not rangers but we can use bows, throwing daggers, axes, etc.  I don't get why we can use all the and not have some kind of silly ranged attack we can use to pull with (we lost anchor).</P> <P>From my point of view I protect my group by holding aggro and taking/mitigating damage, not by casting spells and "utility" I figure if I lose aggro either I am not fit to tank or the person I lost it to screwed up, and if this is something that is a constant problem I say why bother using the "utility of protecting the group" I figure they deserve to die, why waste my spells/time/repair money there?</P> <P>If my job is to protect the group why not just make me a bloody chanter already</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Shizzirri on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:53 PM</span>

[Huskyla]

<P>Chiming in from a Coercer's perspective and looking at this from the 50+ game.</P> <P>First of, if a Guardian is supposed to be the best meat-shield, then yes their DPS should be lowest.  I don't think anyone is arguing opposite.  But to claim Guardian (and other fighter's) utility makes up for the difference between their dps and brusiers doesn't make sense.  IMO, here's why ...</P> <P>Primarily, the best way for a fighter class to protect dps/support classes is by holding agro.  From what I've seen so far, Bruiser dps right now holds agro much better than the utility listed above.</P> <P>Take Commanding Aura for starters.  As it used to be, a Guardian could cast this and mobs would stick to the Guard like glue.  From what I'm told (yes told only, so take this with a grain of salt), this doesn't work very well anymore.  Moreover, the buff only lasts 30 seconds to increase the mitigation of group members versus crush, slash, etc .. This won't keep a mage alive -- Taunts will.  A bruiser's comparable skill gives a big STR bonus (for how long?  I don't know) .. but more str = more dps, = more agro = more taunt for the bruiser = safe mage.</P> <P>Turn to Return to Battle which increases the health of the Guards group.  Ok, I like HP's.  As a mage I concentrate more on stamina than intelligence because a dead coercer contributes nothing to a group.  But how much HP's is this giving?  Is it enough going to keep a mage alive when a mob is beating on him, or AE's a group/raid?  Brusiers comparable skill, Crushing Fury, flat out dps's a mob.  A dead mob won't hurt a mage and having lower HPs sure won't matter if the mob is dead.</P> <P>What about Call of Defense?  Increase the defense of a Guardian's group?  This sure won't keep a mage alive.  All the defense in the world won't matter with my tissue paper armor.  What about bruisers here?   Well they get Unnerve, a mesmerize skill.  Awesome!  A bruiser can mez the mob, allowing the mage to back off and root.  This is much superior to + defense as I see it.</P> <P>Finally, Guardian Sphere.  I like this one -- though I have no practical experience seeing its affects on a Guardian.  Is it suicide?  If so, why would a Guard want to use this?    Brusiers get an AE attack ..   If Sphere works well, and doesn't get a Guard dead, then yea this is superior to Bruisers.</P> <P>So all in all, Guards look to get the shaft here from my perspective.  The best way to keep a mage alive isn't HP's or defense, its keeping agro off the other classes.  Seems from what I've seen that a bruiser can do this a hell of a lot better by just pure DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>Lyle</P> <P>Coercer, Dark Horizon</P>

[Moontayle]

<P><STRONG>Summary:</STRONG></P> <P>Guardian's "utility" (and I use that term lightly), is supposed to be able to help the group survive better. Our defensive oriented buffs are designed along this line of thought.</P> <P><STRONG>The problem:</STRONG></P> <P>In an optimal situation, something any well-oiled group is capable of achieving, there is one, and only one, person sitting there taking the damage. You <EM>might</EM> get a situation with an add or whatnot where someone not normally the tank will take damage, but in 99% of the situations I've been in, it was handled within seconds and everything went back the way it was supposed to be. So in reality, our group utility is practically non-existant. The skills we are given to help us tank better are by and large a joke, and other subclasses actually get better defensive buffs than the so-called defensive subclass of Guardian.</P> <P><STRONG>What Guardians are seeing:</STRONG></P> <P>What we see are other subclasses under the Fighter Archtype who do what we used to do, but better and with both more utility and DPS. If you read this thread, you see that we are struggling with a loss of identity. Being able to help our group become more defensive is a weak way to design a class, because the situations where an entire group would need that extra protection are few and far between. Our most useful buffs with this in mind are not only very short lasting, but two of them offer very severe restrictions in return for that extra defense.</P> <P><STRONG>What Guardians don't want:</STRONG></P> <P>We don't want to have our utility spread out over the group. We've established over and over again that in 99% of situations there's only one person taking the damage anyways, so that added defense is going to waste. We don't want added DPS. Most Guardians are fine being the low end of the totem pole in terms of DPS.</P> <P><STRONG>What Guardians want:</STRONG></P> <P>We want skills that allow us to tank better. Buffs that give us 2% avoidance are a joke. Short term buffs that give us mitigation are a joke. Short term buffs that give us 2% avoidance while lowering our DPS by 20% and slowing us by 50% are a slap in the face. Short term buffs that give us added mitigation but root us in place AND lower our DPS is kicking us in the sweet spot.</P> <P>All we have ever wanted was to be tanks. SOE has taken this away from us. I have no problem with other sub-classes being tanks as well as us, but we should edge out all of them in damage taken. The balance exists when you look at Damage Taken and Damage Given. At the moment, we're about mid-grade in the Taken department and the lower-grade of Given. Being at the low end of one means we should be at the high end of the other. That's not the case. Other sub-classes exist both at the high end of Taken and Given. That is a flawed system and what we're pointing out here.</P> <P>Give us our ability to tank back. Even if it's a 5% advantage, it would be offset by our poor DPS. That's all we're asking.</P>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV>so are you showing us that we are group buff bots? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thats not utility, its just buffs, utility to me is defined as evac, coth, feign death, mana regen,</DIV>

[Exill]

Brawlers also require ZERO gear to do their job while Plate tanks REQUIRE good armor in order to do their job efficiently. No matter what gear the Brawler has they still get their huge innate avoidance bonus, and they still gain the absurd amount of mitigation from buffs. A Brawler in full legendary (or with limited fabled) can tank as well as a Plate tank in full fabled. Does that seem wrong to anyone else? <div></div>

[Manyak]

<DIV>theres actually 2 things about the guardians i see completely busted. first, as almost everyone is stating, is the ability to take hits. and ive put up countless posts about that so not gonna go into it here....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>second thing is the aggro holding. guards used to have 5 different lines of buffs that were recastable, with the old versions stackable (even though most didnt really stack...just appeared in the effects bar). and also used to have like 5 single taunts and 2 aoe taunts (i think). Now as an illusionist the removal of these taunts hurts bad. i havent been able to mezz an add without dying from it cuz of the aggro i generated. before revamp those extra buffs used to act kind of like a magentic field for mobs.......even without the guardian taunting the mobs i would be able to mezz safely...a stray arrow from a group member wouldnt send the mob on me anymore. also, a guard having that many buffs up at once helped the base aggro level of a mob when it added. sure, a healer casting a heal or some1 else hitting it woulda taken aggro immediately, but at least with that many buffs, when a mob added it had some kind of likelyhood to run to the guard no more of that.</DIV>

[Kir]

Sorry, but there is a slight problem with everyone here who says guardians are fine, at level 24 why was I forced to tank for a group doing a named for a quest because the 22 guardian was getting 3 shotted?Killing the named orc commander in Commonlands I had to tank for a 22 guardian on a green tri-up arrow mob to me at 24.  why is this?  a Gaurdian is out tanked by a warden 2 levels higher?  Im not even a [Removed for Content] guardian and I see the problem with this, do the people who are saying guardians are fine, only saying this because they played a tank class that was broken for the time before CU and now they just want guardians to suffer the same pain?  How about instead, we try to help all classes get balanced so that the game is fun for everyone? huh? Novel idea.Guardians are not "ok", I constantly tank mobs with my warden when a guardian in the group is lower level then I am because I can tank the mobs better.  Im sorry but as a warden im loving it, but as a healer its kinda lame dont you think?<div></div>

[Balmore]

<div></div><p>Moorgard,Please, are you suggesting that Guardians are now okay, well-balanced and you're not going to do any thing about what we're talking? Our feedback is not really important here? or being discarded?Please, let us know so we can save the bandwidth here and stop posting about our HIT.Moorgard, the class is now boring. Why would you ever create a Guardian?You talk about us having the best group protection? I say, please go play a Guardian and see. Just play one for a week or so and tell us if you like it.It's either we're all wrong OR you're (include the devs who worked on hitting our class) wrong.The class is boring now that many things were taking out of it. It is boring and some times useless.Please, look into this! This is really serious. I love the game, I’m not leaving it any time soon and I really thank you for making such great effort to keep this game fun.But honestly, I'm currently putting my Guardian into its garage and playing a Monk. I don't think you wanted us to do this?!Moorgard -- you have the tables, you have the numbers and you have the code. But that will NEVER ever tell you if the class is fun and/or broken when you play it.</p><p>Numbers aside, I play a Monk (along with my Guardian) -- Monks are now what a tank should be. Fun, utility and damage -- did I mention tanking well, too?Play one for some time to see what we're talking about.Summary:- We need more damage. Justification: Having two Guardians in one group is really funny? No, a second Guardian doesn't add anything. Unlike ... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />- Fix our MD and give it an initial taunt. <b>Justification</b>: It's da wards baby and the root requirement. I really love this taunt but... root and get knocked back? How frustrating when try to un-root to find Mr. Al Named was chasing your Templar 10 KMs away -- Do we protect? You tell me! -- Example: Go to Hidden Cache and try it.- Our 30secs (Battle Cry line) buff needs to be reviewed. The aggro is it adds is almost nothing if any. The mitigation it adds is not even worth moving your mouse over it. But oh well, I still use it -- nice to fly!. <b>Justification</b>: Try it with devs on beta and go inside the Hidden Cache. Tell me about the things it added to you as a Guardian.- We protect but we don't at same time? <b>Justification</b>: Honestly, have you ever tried using Guardian Sphere? It killed my Wizard -- how? Attacks were landing on her like I did nothing.Well, I hope (trust at the same time) that your and other devs are really looking at our suggestions, feedback and ideas and putting them into consideration. If not -- life goes on -- my Guardian may stay garaged for longer period. Monk, get your shine on, baby, here I come!Thank you!</p>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kiris wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Sorry, but there is a slight problem with everyone here who says guardians are fine, at level 24 why was I forced to tank for a group doing a named for a quest because the 22 guardian was getting 3 shotted?<BR><BR>Killing the named orc commander in Commonlands I had to tank for a 22 guardian on a green tri-up arrow mob to me at 24.  why is this?  a Gaurdian is out tanked by a warden 2 levels higher?  Im not even a [Removed for Content] guardian and I see the problem with this, do the people who are saying guardians are fine, only saying this because they played a tank class that was broken for the time before CU and now they just want guardians to suffer the same pain?  How about instead, we try to help all classes get balanced so that the game is fun for everyone? huh? Novel idea.<BR><BR>Guardians are not "ok", I constantly tank mobs with my warden when a guardian in the group is lower level then I am because I can tank the mobs better.  Im sorry but as a warden im loving it, but as a healer its kinda lame dont you think?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Part of this is probably him not having a solid idea on how to tank... We can hold aggro fine if people follow common group rules, like assisting you, not ice cometting on incoming, etc.  </P> <P>And yes I agree with you wardens do suck atm, at least you can tank...with guardian buffs.</P>

[lazlo1]

<div></div>I am truely sick after reading moorgards post. I guess there will be no help for guardians shortcomings. Anyone who calls guardians sphere a spell has never tested it. It so worthless as so be laughable. If thats the kind of response guards get, it totally hopeless. The group spells that guardians get only help the guardian. Anyone who actually plays the game should know this. Hp and defense buffs only help the person getting beat on which 99% of the time is the guardian. If its not, you most likely have  lost anyway. I had planned to hang around and play thru this mess. It is now clear that having the lowest DPS, no decent utility, and middle of the road tanking is here to stay. And im sorry, buffing things that other group members dont need is not  utility.  How can anyone remotely call it balance when a bruiser is >=  tank and >>> damage and >> utility ? I just dont get it. When I picked this class I gave up everything to tank and taunt the best, now I just gave up everythng. Who would pick to play a guardian now ??? Only an idoit or someone who cant/wont reroll. <div></div><p>Message Edited by lazlo1 on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 PM</span>

[ReviloTX]

<DIV>Thanks for posting Moorguard, you just shot yourself in the foot.  You want all tanks to tank equally right?  Yet, you provide guardians with buffs for defense and mitigation (I'll get to the problem with protection lines later) while other classes get invis, FD, heals, etc.  You call this our utility.  This utility should then make us the BEST tanks.  Therefore, guardians should tank equally BEFORE we cast our buffs.  After we cast our buffs, we should tank better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For some reason I'm not all that happy with how I said that, but I can't think of any better way to say it.  The general idea is, we gave up "fun" utility for being the best tank.  That's why we chose guardian (most of us anyways.. read the threads most posters are saying the same things.. at least the posters that are guardians).  We don't want fun, we don't want utility.. we want to tank the best.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protection lines:  These are a total waste.  They weren't used pre-revamp and they won't be used post-revamp.  The reason is simple.  I lose aggro.. I have two choices, cast a taunt and try to get aggro back, or cast a protection spell.  The protection spell might work.. it might not.  The problem is, once the protection spell is done, the nuke_happy_wizard_01 still has aggro.  The only logical choice is to spam the hell out of your taunts to get aggro back and hope the damage is minimal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The other problem with the protection spells is that we shouldn't even need them.  In a steady state exp group the entire group has realized the guardians aggro generation, and they don't take aggro.  If they continue to do so, they will likely be booted from the group anyways.  The only potentially meaningful use for these spells is dividing up raid dps taken between several tanks, but if that is the idea for them they could use some tweaking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[JNewby]

well I read the moorgard post and while he has a point I mean really... I would rahter have MY def boosted by 14 instead of groups by 12 anyhow enoguh of that... today I saw a mystic level 53 same as mine... with 2180 mit an 4208 hp.. mine isn 2487 mit and 5107 life... now I mean he was wearing a robe and he is a healer... and not a heavy wearing healer... now to me that jsut doesnt sit to well... and people say well its cause he has nice buffs... well yeah it is... so why dont i have those? that kinda mde me upset... in fact I saw a 51 guard with nto so good gear who had only 100 more life and 200 more mit and less avoidance then that mystic

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR> <P>BTW that was a great post Moorgard.</P> <P>Guardians have about the best group utility of all the fighters atm.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>no we have no group utility in all honesty if I am tnaking and lose aggro that +12 def doesnt make a hell beans diff... also that guardians sphere doesnt either... but evac sure saves the group... our bet group util would be to tank better... and the real problem doesn set in acutally tnaking better casue we tnak fine.. but the prob is all the mobs are so weak... every clas tnaks fine.. including healers and wizzies</P> <P> </P>

[sylvo]

The whole utility thing is rubbish as stated before. The rules to Guardian utility. 1. Must only be any use if you haven't done your primary job correctly (see intervene line") 2. Group based making it ideal to get a 2nd tank to do it for you. (see call of protection, return to battle etc..) 3. If self buff then must root caster. Awesome. <div></div>

[Kir]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Kiris wrote:Sorry, but there is a slight problem with everyone here who says guardians are fine, at level 24 why was I forced to tank for a group doing a named for a quest because the 22 guardian was getting 3 shotted?Killing the named orc commander in Commonlands I had to tank for a 22 guardian on a green tri-up arrow mob to me at 24.  why is this?  a Gaurdian is out tanked by a warden 2 levels higher?  Im not even a [Removed for Content] guardian and I see the problem with this, do the people who are saying guardians are fine, only saying this because they played a tank class that was broken for the time before CU and now they just want guardians to suffer the same pain?  How about instead, we try to help all classes get balanced so that the game is fun for everyone? huh? Novel idea.Guardians are not "ok", I constantly tank mobs with my warden when a guardian in the group is lower level then I am because I can tank the mobs better.  Im sorry but as a warden im loving it, but as a healer its kinda lame dont you think? <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Part of this is probably him not having a solid idea on how to tank... We can hold aggro fine if people follow common group rules, like assisting you, not ice cometting on incoming, etc.  </p> <p>And yes I agree with you wardens do suck atm, at least you can tank...with guardian buffs.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>Think you misunderstood what I meant by my post. I am not complaining that Wardens are broken, im complaining that as a warden (healer) I typically will have to tank for the group if the tank is a guardian and is 2 + levels below me.  I really dont see how SoE thinks this is working as intended.</span><div></div>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Exill wrote:Brawlers also require ZERO gear to do their job while Plate tanks REQUIRE good armor in order to do their job efficiently. No matter what gear the Brawler has they still get their huge innate avoidance bonus, and they still gain the absurd amount of mitigation from buffs. A Brawler in full legendary (or with limited fabled) can tank as well as a Plate tank in full fabled. Does that seem wrong to anyone else? <div></div><hr></blockquote>It's worth mentioning that these mitigation buffs you've spoken about are the limited duration, stun-in-place buffs that we can only use 1/2, 1/3, or 1/6 of the time. They are mostly upgrades to each other and don't stack (there were two of the same line posted in one of them, and one of the mit buffs was also Master I). I'm not saying guardians don't need a boost, I'm just saying that beyond the initial shock of the numbers, it's not like Bruisers are tanking naked. Guardians are (or should be) more consistent in that respect. Also, in response to the person posting about his Warden tanking, levels and gear are even bigger now. I've been in groups where a Guardian had four levels on me and 3/4 of the unbuffed mitigation because he was still using armor from fourteen levels ago. Light armor from the next tier is almost as good as medium or even heavy armor from the last tier, in my experience, and if you haven't picked any up as soon as the opportunity arises you're going to be severely disadvantaged, since armor doesn't gradually level anymore. As to level, a conjurer pet four levels above me was doing a better job tanking than I was, and I was a Bruiser in nearly full rare with the mitigation buffs going. If I had to suggest a utility improvement, I'd say to make Guardians the ultimate aggro holders. Give them something that allows them to basically tell everyone to cut loose on whatever group they're targeting. As a Bruiser, my single target aggro is amazing but my group (and, god forbid, multi-group) aggro (and DPS) is jack. That would be the ultimate group DPS buff for mages and such that are traditionally forced to hold back. </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class=date_text>09-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:13 PM</span>

[Fafnir]

<DIV>I find Moorgard's lack of insights concerning.  I hope there is a drawing board at SOE and that the dev team can remember the way back into that room.</DIV>

[Exill]

<span><blockquote><hr>SageGaspar wrote:<span>It's worth mentioning that these mitigation buffs you've spoken about are the limited duration, stun-in-place buffs that we can only use 1/2, 1/3, or 1/6 of the time. They are mostly upgrades to each other and don't stack (there were two of the same line posted in one of them, and one of the mit buffs was also Master I). I'm not saying guardians don't need a boost, I'm just saying that beyond the initial shock of the numbers, it's not like Bruisers are tanking naked. Guardians are (or should be) more consistent in that respect. </span><hr></blockquote></span><span><img src="http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9875/mitigationbuffs1gs.jpg"> The only two spells I posted were both adept 1 and both stack, so I do not know what you are talking about. As for the stun in place, as a Main Tank you are constantly getting stunned anyways and you get a taunt that you can use even when stunned. About the limited duration: yes one is 30 seconds but the other lasts for 3 minutes with a short recast time. It is also worth mentioning that the Guardian buffs have penalties as well such as rooting caster in place, decrease caster attack speed, decrease caster damage per second, decrease caster run speed,  and decrease caster attack speed even more. Exill 54 Guardian 4000 mitigation self buffed including short duration buffs     after 30 seconds Guardian drops to 2778 Effrum 54 Bruiser 3600 mitigation self buffed including short duration buffs     after 30 seconds Bruiser drops to 2304 Problem? The Bruiser is in <u>light armor</u> with only 2 pieces of fabled armor. The Guardian is in <u>heavy armor</u> with 7 pieces of fabled armor. Grouped together the Bruiser can benefit from the Guardian's Commanding Aura and Call of Defense to gain an additional 486 mitigation plus even more avoidance. This puts the Bruiser up to 4086 mitigation with an extremely high avoidance. Compare this to the Guardian with 4000 mitigation but who has much less avoidance. Conclusion: Yes, these are just numbers and don't accurately describe any real combat situations. However, what is the point in being a heavy armor class when a light armor class can reach comparatively high mitigation? Are all heavy armor classes supposed to be buff bots for the light armor fighters? Their comparative mitigation, useful utility, and high dps is what makes Guardians feel useless.</span><div></div>

[Geothe]

<P>So, the main utility of Guardians is there ability to buff their group?  with like 200 hp and +Def buffs?</P> <P>Okay, I maybe would of bought that before the combat revamp when +Def actually meant something.... but now it is a complete joke.</P> <P>Go Guardians!<BR>We can buff our group enough HP that still wont keep you from dying from a direct hit.  And we can buff your defense!  and give you maybe 2% avoidance.</P> <P>Rock on!</P> <P>Oh yeah!</P> <P>Our DPS is crap too.</P> <P>We rock!</P> <P>*rolls eyes*</P>

[Thor]

<DIV>[Removed for Content], give us Evac. At least we can save the life of the group. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[SageGaspar]

<div></div><span>Bah.  Just look at the one down there ;d </span><span></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by SageGaspar on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:44 AM</span>

[SageGaspar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Exill wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>SageGaspar wrote:<span>It's worth mentioning that these mitigation buffs you've spoken about are the limited duration, stun-in-place buffs that we can only use 1/2, 1/3, or 1/6 of the time. They are mostly upgrades to each other and don't stack (there were two of the same line posted in one of them, and one of the mit buffs was also Master I). I'm not saying guardians don't need a boost, I'm just saying that beyond the initial shock of the numbers, it's not like Bruisers are tanking naked. Guardians are (or should be) more consistent in that respect. </span><hr></blockquote></span><span><img src="http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9875/mitigationbuffs1gs.jpg"> The only two spells I posted were both adept 1 and both stack, so I do not know what you are talking about. As for the stun in place, as a Main Tank you are constantly getting stunned anyways and you get a taunt that you can use even when stunned. About the limited duration: yes one is 30 seconds but the other lasts for 3 minutes with a short recast time. It is also worth mentioning that the Guardian buffs have penalties as well such as rooting caster in place, decrease caster attack speed, decrease caster damage per second, decrease caster run speed,  and decrease caster attack speed even more. Exill 54 Guardian 4000 mitigation self buffed including short duration buffs     after 30 seconds Guardian drops to 2778 Effrum 54 Bruiser 3600 mitigation self buffed including short duration buffs     after 30 seconds Bruiser drops to 2304 Problem? The Bruiser is in <u>light armor</u> with only 2 pieces of fabled armor. The Guardian is in <u>heavy armor</u> with 7 pieces of fabled armor. Grouped together the Bruiser can benefit from the Guardian's Commanding Aura and Call of Defense to gain an additional 486 mitigation plus even more avoidance. This puts the Bruiser up to 4086 mitigation with an extremely high avoidance. Compare this to the Guardian with 4000 mitigation but who has much less avoidance. Conclusion: Yes, these are just numbers and don't accurately describe any real combat situations. However, what is the point in being a heavy armor class when a light armor class can reach comparatively high mitigation? Are all heavy armor classes supposed to be buff bots for the light armor fighters? Their comparative mitigation, useful utility, and high dps is what makes Guardians feel useless.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>Grr... I wrote a big reply and the board ate it. Main points: 1. I was stupid and mixed up ignore agony master I for mitigation master I, and I thought I saw bruising spirit in there. I was smoking something. 2. It would be nice to give Guardians more utility besides group buffs, as those are boring, of limited effectiveness, and actually encourages other tanks to be MT over the Guard in some cases, as you noted. 3. Bruiser burst mit is still very intermittent. The "short recast time" is three minutes. When you look at the duration, one is up at most 50% of the time, and one is up at most 14% of the time. They coincide even less of the time. Plus, through stun, I think we get one single-target taunt and we lose the ability to do our main proc taunt (relies on attacking). Guardians have upgrades to Hold the Line, I believe, which is a taunt that works on the whole encounter through stun. Still, I agree that Guardian mitigation should be much better in almost all situations and shouldn't necessarily rely on bursts except for some really sick mitigation buffs. 4. I read somewhere that after the balance, heavy armor was going to protect better intrinsically than light armor. Is that reflected in the pure mitigation numbers, or was the idea scrapped, or what? I was just wondering, out of curiosity, to complete the comparison.</span><div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Exill wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageGaspar wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>It's worth mentioning that these mitigation buffs you've spoken about are the limited duration, stun-in-place buffs that we can only use 1/2, 1/3, or 1/6 of the time. They are mostly upgrades to each other and don't stack (there were two of the same line posted in one of them, and one of the mit buffs was also Master I). I'm not saying guardians don't need a boost, I'm just saying that beyond the initial shock of the numbers, it's not like Bruisers are tanking naked. Guardians are (or should be) more consistent in that respect.<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></SPAN><SPAN><IMG src="http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/9875/mitigationbuffs1gs.jpg"><BR><BR>The only two spells I posted were both adept 1 and both stack, so I do not know what you are talking about. As for the stun in place, as a Main Tank you are constantly getting stunned anyways and you get a taunt that you can use even when stunned. About the limited duration: yes one is 30 seconds but the other lasts for 3 minutes with a short recast time. It is also worth mentioning that the Guardian buffs have penalties as well such as rooting caster in place, decrease caster attack speed, decrease caster damage per second, decrease caster run speed,  and decrease caster attack speed even more. <BR><BR>Exill 54 Guardian 4000 mitigation self buffed including short duration buffs<BR>    after 30 seconds Guardian drops to 2778<BR>Effrum 54 Bruiser 3600 mitigation self buffed including short duration buffs<BR>    after 30 seconds Bruiser drops to 2304<BR><BR>Problem? The Bruiser is in <U>light armor</U> with only 2 pieces of fabled armor. The Guardian is in <U>heavy armor</U> with 7 pieces of fabled armor.<BR><BR>Grouped together the Bruiser can benefit from the Guardian's Commanding Aura and Call of Defense to gain an additional 486 mitigation plus even more avoidance. This puts the Bruiser up to 4086 mitigation with an extremely high avoidance. Compare this to the Guardian with 4000 mitigation but who has much less avoidance.<BR><BR>Conclusion: Yes, these are just numbers and don't accurately describe any real combat situations. However, what is the point in being a heavy armor class when a light armor class can reach comparatively high mitigation? Are all heavy armor classes supposed to be buff bots for the light armor fighters?<BR><BR>Their comparative mitigation, useful utility, and high dps is what makes Guardians feel useless.</SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Grr... I wrote a big reply and the board ate it. Main points:<BR><BR>1. I was stupid and mixed up ignore agony master I for mitigation master I, and I thought I saw bruising spirit in there. I was smoking something.<BR><BR>2. It would be nice to give Guardians more utility besides group buffs, as those are boring, of limited effectiveness, and actually encourages other tanks to be MT over the Guard in some cases, as you noted.<BR><BR>3. Bruiser burst mit is still very intermittent. The "short recast time" is three minutes. When you look at the duration, one is up at most 50% of the time, and one is up at most 14% of the time. They coincide even less of the time. Plus, through stun, I think we get one single-target taunt and we lose the ability to do our main proc taunt (relies on attacking). Guardians have upgrades to Hold the Line, I believe, which is a taunt that works on the whole encounter through stun. Still, I agree that Guardian mitigation should be much better in almost all situations and shouldn't necessarily rely on bursts except for some really sick mitigation buffs.<BR><BR>4. I read somewhere that after the balance, heavy armor was going to protect better intrinsically than light armor. Is that reflected in the pure mitigation numbers, or was the idea scrapped, or what? I was just wondering, out of curiosity, to complete the comparison.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Since mitigation is so jacked up atm I'm tempted to buy my guardian a set of light armor and use that since it will probably make my avoidance better and the mitigation difference really isn't that much.  Another observation I made last night is I tanked an orange named to about 20% before I died (in full t-5 fabled armor), then the mob aggroed a wizard who's in legendary/treasured T5 gear and he only got hit once, the mob was not getting stunned stifled and he was nuking his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] off.  And the dev who posts in this forum says there's nothing wrong with  mitigation...I'd say its time we find some new dev's, but that's ok because we have guardian sphere and its our job to use it in situations like this so we can protect the group by popping a spell that mitigates damage worse on the guardian than it does on the mage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RandomPlay]

<P>Thanks for the post, Moorgard.  I will concede that a Guardian's "protect the group" CAs can be considered a form of utility, but the current game mechanics don't provide any benefit from them.  So even though we have utility, it's a useless utility because EQ2 combat goes off a simple hate list.  He (or she) with the most hate takes all direct (non AOE) damage.</P> <P>If the MT is doing their job, nobody else should be targetted by mobs.<BR>If they aren't targeted, they don't need a high Defense to avoid being hit.<BR>If they are targeted, their best bet is higher avoidance and resistances, not better Defense and mitigation (right now, at least).<BR>If they aren't being hit regularly, they don't need extra STA or HP to stay alive.</P> <P>The only reason I use the group buffs you mentioned is for the effect they have on me.  Don't think I'm selfish - it's just I'm the only one who needs and can benefit from them the vast majority of the time.</P> <DIV>If the rationale was "we'll give Guards abilities to help 6 people, so let's make each ability 1/6th as powerful to keep it balanced", then please switch them to single target buffs and increase their effectiveness. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks,</DIV> <DIV>RP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SageGaspar]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shizzirri wrote:<div>Since mitigation is so jacked up atm I'm tempted to buy my guardian a set of light armor and use that since it will probably make my avoidance better and the mitigation difference really isn't that much.  Another observation I made last night is I tanked an orange named to about 20% before I died (in full t-5 fabled armor), then the mob aggroed a wizard who's in legendary/treasured T5 gear and he only got hit once, the mob was not getting stunned stifled and he was nuking his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] off.  And the dev who posts in this forum says there's nothing wrong with  mitigation...I'd say its time we find some new dev's, but that's ok because we have guardian sphere and its our job to use it in situations like this so we can protect the group by popping a spell that mitigates damage worse on the guardian than it does on the mage.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote> I'm just curious as to whether the mage was higher levelled, because I think maybe what needs to happen is a balancing out of avoidance and mitigation among the levels. As it works now, when I fight orange mobs (especially solo), I often use my offensive stance, as I don't stand a chance in hell of actually making contact with it regularly otherwise, and it pretty much ignores my defense anyway. I use my defensive stance when fighting green heroics, as then they rarely ever get a hit, and I have no problem hitting them. This illustrates a major point: avoidance (and possibly mit) seems to be way too heavily impacted by fairly small level disparities. I would go so far as to say that it should work pretty much with the same effectiveness against anything within your blue/orange range. The way it is now, you join a group with a summoner a couple levels over you, and you get a bit kick in the nuts when you find out that the pet can steal aggro from you, hold it better, and tank better. I'm not saying that summoner pets are overpowered, but that levels mean a bit too much in a game where exp ranges are now huge and groups tend to be level diverse.</span><div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>The mage was one level higher than me, and the mob was orange to both of us, the problem is they made color con the way of determining how much/often a mob hits you and it seems that mitigation/avoidance have no factor in the damage taken at all.  Mitigation and avoidance don't seem to be factored into the equation </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have a problem with pet's pulling aggro from me unless the conjurer sends his pet to tank an add and eventually I move to that other mob usually it takes a few taunts to get it off the pet. </DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>edit - Double post my bad</DIV><p>Message Edited by Shizzirri on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:20 PM</span>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>The mage was one level higher than me, and the mob was orange to both of us, the problem is they made color con the way of determining how much/often a mob hits you and it seems that mitigation/avoidance have no factor in the damage taken at all.  Mitigation and avoidance don't seem to be factored into the equation at all, especailly with mages, imo they should get flattened by orange triple ups, or even blue ones for that matter, even with defensive buffs.  Yes an orange triple up mob should thrash a tank, but it should be able to thrash a mage even worse than a tank right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't have a problem with pet's pulling aggro from me unless the conjurer sends his pet to tank an add and eventually I move to that other mob usually it takes a few taunts to get it off the pet.  I'm sure I'd have problems with the 58 necro in my guild and his pet but I hardly ever group with him.</DIV>

[Steve11418]

<div></div><p>Hi guys.My 2 cents worth.I have a 47 Guard. I have not had a problem holding agro. But it does annoy me when my 47 Templar brother has 100 less mitigation than me an insists that he can pull and tank most things… its only when he does not want to risk being interrupted that I have to tank. His avoidance is 25% lower than mine… but he likes it that way with his reactive heals. And to rub salt into the wound, he is full TreasuredWis based gear… and I am in Fabled / Legendary gear.</p><p>If he had my Equipment he would kick [Removed for Content]. And don’t get me started on his 44 Nerco Alt… Here I am buffing and taking hits for a Pet 3 levels lower than me.</p><p>Benching the guard, Rub off the “main” stamp and re badge him “alt”… might work on my trade skills. Play my Warlock and Monk instead.</p><p>Boerem</p><p>47 Guardian</p><p>20 Armorer</p><div></div>

[Syndic]

That's all well and good and it is good to see that Guardians do have some benefit.  Many players though have the perception that other classes are better off to have around than us. The problem I see is that it maybe nice that a guardian can buff up defence and health of party members, but if a guardian is doing their job correctly who in the party is getting hit for them to benefit from these buffs? What I guess I'm trying to say is yes we have this ability to buff party members, but these buffs are not so useful as something that affects just us.  Frankly buffing group members defenses doesn't provide nearly as much benefit, as group members rarely if ever need the buffs given. Personally I would much prefer something that maybe removed the group portion of the spell make it personal and x3 or x4 the values.   We are getting beaten to death and usually if someone in the group is getting hit, it's becuase I'm already dead and the buffs not in effect anyway. Even another line like Rescue which almost always guarentees grabbing hate off someone would be better. After the group I had yesterday I must admit other than mobs hurting us more than I've seen other tanks, some of it has to do with perception of our class.  I just think the buffs we have to share around just do not show the usefulness that the other classes receive.  We are buffing the defence and health of classes that do not require the buffs (unless of cause it is another tank, who happens to be MT, Oh Yeah). Does a Summoner really need more defence?  How about a healer with more HP's?  On the odd occasion when these events would help majority of the time the guardian is already dead (so no buff anyway) or the situation is so out of control that what little we give will be of no help. <div></div>

[DaxxDea]

<P>I got a few points.</P> <P>I know it still shows us as having a decent chunk of avoidance. The fact is I almost NEVER avoid attacks anymore to the point where if I use a shield or 2hander it doesn't matter I am not avoiding any more hits with shield. In reality tho my ability to avoid any hits period would be based on my shield considering I am not very agile being in full plate and all a huge tower shield is my best way to avoid being hit so why does it have little to no impact on this?</P> <P>We have 2 avoidance buffs which as far as I can tell stack? they are essentially the same spell cept one gives us parry and other one gives our target less hate. One I have is 44% and other is 41% stacked ontop of each other should be 85% on our target which sounds huge and you would notice a big difference? Well I don't notice any difference it sure as hell isn't checking my avoidance 85% of the time. Like I said above tho even if it did check our avoidance 85% of the time it wouldn't matter considering our avoidance seems broken.</P> <P>As for our class being the best at buffing groups? thats debatable considering they made slash/crush/pierce/defense buffs almost completely useless and thats what most of our buffs consist of. Thats not really the point tho because were supposedly the best group buffers which leads me to the question WHO CARES? lets be brutally honest people there is one person's buffs on a raid that matter more then anyone else on a raid. Thats right the MT its a selfish thing but its true. NO ONE cares how much you can buff a whole group people only care how much you can buff one person aka the MT. Buffing only the MT for twice as much is more important then buffing the whole group and getting 6people buffed instead of 1.</P> <P>So we got buffs that USED to be good and now suck. Oh but they buff the whole group? no one cares a spell hitting the whole group doesn't change the fact the buffs still suck nor does it change the fact only one person really needs those buffs not the whole group.</P> <P>Just for the record Bruisers group dps buff is more valuable then our crush/slash/pierce and defense buff combined. If you wanna say were the buff class why did you leave us with broken garbage buffs? you want to know the single biggest nerf in whole revamp? ya thats right it was the defense nerf you made defense almost completely useless yet you left guardians defense buffs in to do nothing. The second biggest nerf was to crush/pierce/slash buffs completely neutering them you changed the other fighters buffs to a new buff that actually does something like bruisers dps buff yet you left guardians with the broken buff.</P> <P>Don't get me wrong I do appreciate how sony breaks a whole 2 spell lines and instead of giving us a working spell line to compensate leave us with the broken spell line that does essentially nothing then say were working fine.</P> <P>On the bright side while lvling up and not tanking because obviously were not MT anymore, I did manage to parse 400dps(only one fight) with max dps buffs etc yay im a dps class now!!</P>

[Vormulac]

<P>ok very nice post by moorguard, however there is some discrepancies.  </P> <P>You started out as an example of guardians and brawlers being of opposite ends of the spectrum, ok so you gave them the avoidance to match what our mitigation USED (notice past tense) to be.  Why did our mit get dropped by a ton while i can name a few bruisers that run around 80+% avoid.  Lets not start how you made fabled complete crap compared to t6 stuff that gets harvested by the dozen every hour. (and yes we have cobalt everywhere on our brokers on neriak due to it being dang near common/uncommon)  </P> <P> </P> <P>Guardians protect thier group, ok i can live with that kinda what i thought the class was when i first chose it.  Vigilance (has never worked) still dont work may never work.  It targets us not the person we put it on and does not raise our parry, this has been bug reported by many.  That being said you made guardian sphere almost useful, but heck we cant deal with all the damage WE take now nm everyone else's cause lets remmember we now have 30-50% less hp.  Even with playing with group set ups max we could get any of our tanks even fabled was 8k range, which isnt alot when the mobs are either ae'ing for 5k, hitting for 3k in quick succession, Brawlers get best hp but we gotta take everyone's dmg......riiight. Hp should have scaled alot closer imo  with brawlers top dog on avoid and warriors top dogs on mit.</P> <P>And for the love of god im still trying to find a use for intercept, oh yes i can see what you WANTED it to be used for, but you obviously didnt test it at all, problem 1, you gotta be up the other tanks [Removed for Content] to even think about using it, which usualy puts you in barrage , forward ae, wrath of fury (which we were so dissapointed this is still in the game) half the time if you put it on then back off it dont work at all, so now i gotta what? line up tanks with the ma to chain intercept?  I certainly hope this wasnt your solution to making reactives useless on pulls due to them outagro'ing even master and adept 3 taunts.</P> <P>Taunts, didnt we try to make taunts resistable in eq 1? didnt we tell you to shove it up your.....nm, then? scale the amount it taunts for based on lvl differences but for the love of god ive had a mob 1 lvl higher resist 4 adept 3 taunts in a row! By then whoever he is on is dead as any group "damage absorb" spells i have  only has a 56 percent chance at adept 3 to work and they still take over half the damage.  </P> <P>Now at the same time these are the downside points of being a guardian after live 13, there is some good as well and alot of fun added back into the game (by fun i mean challenge)  But there is challenge and there is making someone not be able to do what thier class was meant to do.  </P> <P>/rant off  after 52 lvls not rerolling my toon just hoping someone actually decides to playtest the next "patch" that plays and or has played a guardian.</P> <P> </P> <P>Vormulac Unsleep</P> <P>Guild Leader Shattered Moon</P> <P>Neriak</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[blueduckie]

vigilance targeting you is better than another honestly. It gives you that much more % of the % you shield block. I have master 1 in it also so can tell a bit of a difference normally. The parry add works for me i dont know why it doesnt for you. That is one of the most useful spells we have and it upgrades at lvl 60. I would like to however add that before revamp and shield nerf when putting vigilance on myself there was a much more incredible difference. I really think the shield nerf is what has hurt us the most. Blocking so many attacks was mega noticable difference. I was one of the only people in my guild who would put it on myself and took about 1/3 less dmg than a guardian better geared in my guild. It is huge dont undermine it being on yourself IMO.

[Pry]

<P><FONT face=Verdana>Just one comment because I plan to make a whole different post addressing a lot of what has been said here later.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>The BETA as well as LU#13 was play-tested by Guardians.  We were telling Sony that it was class-altering and unacceptable.  They didn't care.   Just so you didn't think that Guardians stood by while they got the weenie.</FONT></P>

[Trolll]

<P>My 51 guard is now my alt. Going to play my Zerker or Brusier, maybe I'll roll a necro now.</P> <P>I see absolutly no reason to have a guard in the group now. Put a zerkerin and he can keep taunt at least almost as good and do way more DPS, put a monk/brusier in and watch the solo heroics drop like a rock with taunt never being am issue.</P> <P>All of the non-guards that I saw post, including most likely Moorguard (play a guard by chance?) bring up the buffs he mentioned. We only get to use 2-3 group buffs now that actually last more than 30 secs. What good is a 30 sec buff that isnt that great anyway? Most buffs don't stack now that did before also. Having all those others in adept III and master is a real waste but also it makes the guard that much less valuable than he was before the revamp. How about giving us a buff that transfers __% of the groups hate to the guard and as several of the posts have pointed out, how about making some of the buffs individual and x2 x3 x4 times better? If we kept taunt and were able to take a hit then the rest of the group doesn't need our buffs anyway.</P> <P>I can group and I can solo but if I was making a group I'd take about any other class in the zone before a guard unless there was no fighter type at all in the group. Thats sad. Solo'ing is funny too. I can solo and survive fine but it's funny to see a brusier/monk, or even zerker, of the same level soloing the same things and dropping them 4 times faster and ending with more health/power than i do. I haven't had enough interaction with pally's and sk's of my level to know if they are gimped too or not.</P> <P>Anyway, my 51 is retired for now. Maybe SOE will take notice when the number of active guards drops by 80% and there's a zillion Brusiers running around everywhere.</P> <P>Bouldur</P> <P>51 Guard of Mistmoore</P> <P>Retired</P> <P> </P> <P>Wyrrm</P> <P>24 Brusier of Mistmoore</P> <P>rising fast</P> <P>p.s.- I bet if I played both the same amount of hours I could get the 24 to 60 faster than I could get the 51 to 60. That's balance.</P>

[Curati]

im a lvl 36 guard <DIV>you wanna hear somthin sad?... I was in a group with a dirge and the healer told the dirge to MT because I wasnt able to mitigate the damage good enough. after two weeks of being patient with all the deaths, decay and frustrated groups I have hung up my guardian for now and I play my templar. [Removed for Content] good are group buffs if the MT cant even stand up to the hits? I dont care that I dont do much damage that is for the DPS classes. I just want to be able to hold hate AND not crumple like a wet paperbag-wearing-mage. Before the change I was welcome in any group I joined now I get passed over for palys and scout classes....that need to be looked into me thinks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>look...make it impossible for guards to solo...fine...I want to be uber damage taker for my group....group buffs is a panzy way of guarding my group any magic class can have group buffs...Im not a magic class I am a figher.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>good day</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

What's sad is this thread made the "treasure chest" of knowledge list because of moorguard's post, sadly I don't find any useful information about guardian utility in it, all I see is depressing knowledge about skills that are virtually useless, because the mage we're trying to save mitigates the damage better than guardians using guardian sphere.

[Geothe]

<P>Well, I must say, I am actually getting a lot of use out of my guardian for the last week or so.</P> <P>*nods*</P> <P>He is real useful and harvesting rares for the new alt that I am leveling so I can actually play a class that has a use in a group!</P>

[Halade]

<DIV>After the mitigation/avoidence problem is addressed....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would just like to see improved mitigation.  If we're supposed to be a self-buffed 'mitigatation' plate tank, why do we take the same damage (and apparently more) as zerkers and pally's?  Take the same group fighting the same mob, interchange tanks and the group difference is the healers run out of power faster healing us than they do the others... we do less damage to mob_x, take more damage from mob_x and lack the ability to heal ourselves.  I want to take the least damage of the plate tanks... it's why I carry a big shield and where heavy plate armor... to take a beating... we're not zerkers with shields... or crusaders (who should be somewhere between a guard and a zerker in terms of balance between defense and offense).  The 'balance' here is that we need to physically tank better, and that needs to be a practical and legitimate part of the overall combat system.  Any tank should be able to stand up and tank mob_x, whether it be because they kill it faster, avoid it's attacks, have the ability to heal/ward themselvels and/or mitigate them.  I don't particularly care about doing DPS as a guard; in fact, if not carrying a weapon lets me use a free hand to give mob_x the finger and increase my hate position, i'll take it!  I choose the class to hold aggro and tank the beating while my group takes down the mobs.  True I can still do that, but if other tanks can do it more effectively there is little to no incentive to use anything but.  The problem pre-revamp was that guards were the tanks of choice, and there was little incentive to use another tank for raid_mob_001.  Now the community has greater tank variety which is great, but guards feeling gimped is not solely because we're not our former selves....  I don't like to solo as a guardian, it feels futile, so I apologize if those who do play that aspect feel excluded.  </DIV>

[Whotookfrobo]

<P>one thing...or many things, that moorgard does not care to listen to or even wants to accept is this..</P> <P> </P> <P>EVERY spell he listed was for a guardian to take SOMEBODY else damage, or for a guardian to buff SOMEBODY else, or for a guardian to shield SOMEBODY else.</P> <P> </P> <P>and EVERY spell that the other fighters get is a attack or a heal or a HP buff or a mana buff or something that works on THEM...not somebody else. so more or less you have a guardian who can buff the living crap out of somebody else, or take the damage of somebody else, but what do we have for OURSELF?</P> <P> </P> <P>when you solo.....as far as i know....me being able to buff somebody is 0 help for ME.</P> <P> </P> <P>i mean come on moregard, wake up and smell the coffee. </P> <P> </P> <P>im 110% sure you DONT play a gaurdian, or you wouldnt be so blind and stupid to the nerf guardians took in this revamp. you say "oh you guys have uber utility as long as your happy standing around taking damage somebody else was supposed to take, or as log as your happy buffing up another class to make them uber."</P> <P> </P> <P>what good does 1037204729 spells to buf somebody else do for me when i solo? i sure as hell cant buff myself to take any hits better. and with a guardian sub par at best dps. what are we supposed to do? cast 5 of out zillion buffs and afk and watch a movie or wash clothes during a fight. god knows if im having to take damage from somebody else, i sure as hell cant afford to take my own damage.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>and answer this, when i take a melee hit for 900 damage, and that same hit on a mage would have been 3000 damage. when i have your so called uber utility buffs cast on the mage, why do i take a 3k hit instead of the 900 i would have taken if it would have hit me directly?</P> <P> </P> <P>that is just 1 of the many moronic spells that we have...but ohh im sorry, were uber buffers now. as long as its not use were having to buff.</P>

[Krooner]

<P>One more thing that is getting overlooked as well is this.</P> <P>When we tank and our buffs are up they are suppose to protect the group..  Isnt that  what Moorguard said.</P> <P>When we MT and we go down our buffs go down and the group is less protected.</P> <P>More than just a handful of guardians have stated that we are not taking the damage we were pre-revamp. NOT even close.</P> <P>If we cant live Moorguard then we cant protect.  So there are ONLY 2 options.</P> <P>1.)  Fix mitigation so we are able to take ALOT more hits with less damage then we are now.  Fix shield avoidnace, blocks, parry, up our reposte.</P> <P>2.)  Turn us into buff bots with our own invis so we can buff the group and hide in the corner so we dont get killed by the big meanings and debuff the group.</P> <P> </P> <P>Which is it going to be SOE ????</P> <P> </P>

[Whotookfrobo]

<DIV>ohh, i almost forgot</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you dont really think moorgard has even bothered to look at this post since he replied?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>dont bet the farm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>he jumped in here, made a post that just proved what we were saying is correct, but he did it in a way where he should have just came out and said</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>look, your ferked, thats the way it is, and im not going to change it, this is what you got, sub par or whatever. ill try and dress it up and throw on the old dance and show to make you think your better than you are.....but bottom line is this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is what you got, your screwed. take it or leave it. at soe, were lazy enough as it is. were too lazy to fix the major bugs and missing items in the expansion, what makes you think we care that you got nerfed?</DIV> <DIV>we spent a whole 30 mins figuring your revamp and heres what you got...whine cry all you want. its your, take it or leave it</DIV>

[Kell]

<DIV>My favorite parts of the protection lines is that they use MY avoidance for check after the other toon......my avoidance?  Really?  Nothing like having your worst stat be part of your spell line......and if I actually manage to intercept the damage it MULTIPLIES the damage the group takes.  So, now the healer has twice as much work?   ...and I have tons of HP to spare.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only way these abilties are effective is when we off tank.  If you look at them in that light they make a LOT more sense.  I know I rolled a Guardain to help Monks and Bruisers tank even better!  Woot!</DIV> <DIV>Really, why don't you make us into a pet they can cast and get it over with.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Kellic on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:41 PM</span>

[Wilin]

<P>I was not too dismayed by the CU changes at first.(mid 40s Guardian) I could solo well enough as long as I picked on yellow or lower solo mobs. That seemed appropriate and I was well aware that Guardians were a little too good prior to the CU.(I started playing a Guardian at release)</P> <P>But, I just tried to finish off an old quest over the weekend that required that I kill a group of Heroic gray casters(13 levels lower than me). I tried multiple configurations(S/S,DW,Off Stance, Def Stance) and different tactics and got the same results, dead. That was a bit too much for me to bear. So, the Guardian is retired and my return to the game might be following suit soon. There is no scenario that exists where an encounter that is 13 levels lower than me should kill me consistently, heroic or not. Epic? Ok, but not heroic.</P>

[Herrtzog]

<P>47 Guardian here, from Highkeep server.</P> <P>When I first got the game last December, I had searched the eq2players website and found this page:</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm</A></P> <P>When I hovered over the guardian tab, it says:</P> <P><EM><STRONG>'Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies.  They will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory.'</STRONG></EM></P> <DIV>That was what I wanted in a character.  To be the undeniable first choice for main tank.  </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunatley, that isn't the case anymore.  No matter how you spin it, Moorguard, our class has been disgraced.  And amends are in order.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Opila Ehrenwache</DIV> <DIV>Hands of Prophets</DIV> <DIV>Highkeep</DIV><p>Message Edited by Herrtzog on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[Culann Heartsto]

<span><blockquote><hr>Herrtzog wrote:<div></div> <p>47 Guardian here, from Highkeep server.</p> <p>When I first got the game last December, I had searched the eq2players website and found this page:</p> <p><a href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm" target="_blank">http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/classes/index.vm</a></p> <p>When I hovered over the guardian tab, it says:</p> <p><em><strong>'Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies.  They will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory.'</strong></em></p> <div>That was what I wanted in a character.  To be the undeniable first choice for main tank.  </div> <div>Unfortunatley, that isn't the case anymore.  No matter how you spin it, Moorguard, our class has been disgraced.  And amends are in order.</div> <div> </div> <div>Opila Ehrenwache</div> <div>Hands of Prophets</div> <div>Highkeep</div><p>Message Edited by Herrtzog on <span class="date_text">09-27-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:54 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Sorry..Amends is a Paladin spell now...don't think you can get that. =) (Sorry, I realize the Guards are having problems atm, but saw this and just couldn't help it..no offense, just struck me as funny) </span><div></div>

[SkySava]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Orodruin wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Just a follow up to this:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>I thought the idea of a tank within a group, be he a guardian or any other class, is to take the damage so others don't have to.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>With that as a premise, I don't see much advantage to any tank having utility to protect people who aren't being targetted.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>Sure, the occasional surprise add, or situations where the rest of the group must take AE damage because they cannot get out of it. But those situations are fairly rare.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" size=2>So does it really make much sense for a class who's defining role is to prevent everyone around him from taking any damage to have a bunch of utility arts that enable everyone around him to take more damage?</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with this. While I see that they are trying to add in reasons to have guardians in raids if you just can get anyone else it doesn't seem to do us any good as a MT. I personally think us Guardians are simply missing our role as a MT and there isn't any good reason to ever put us there. Scouts were doing a much better job then I was last night at avoiding the damage (same level scouts as myself). Any fighter should be hands down and WAY above all other classes when it comes to mitigation or avoidance. They aren't currently and what bugs us is that we are now the bottom rung of the fighter class.

[HrGig]

<P>Ya know after this revamp we had IMO it seems that we gaurdians ya have a problem with our Mig now (no more meat sheild) our taunts are weaker (i cant hold agro in a grp that is my lvl (50ish) with all adept 3 taunts in 50%+ of the cases) and now to be able to hold agro decently we must rely upon our attacks...</P> <P> </P> <P>So the out come of us guardians IMO is...we are now a tank/dps crossbreed with bad taunts and buffs and require 2 hlrs to stay alive in the larger battles...</P> <P> </P> <P>Just my 2c</P>

[Rhianni]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herrtzog wrote:<BR> <P><EM><STRONG>'Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies.  They will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory.'</STRONG></EM></P> <DIV>That was what I wanted in a character.  To be the undeniable first choice for main tank.  </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunatley, that isn't the case anymore.  No matter how you spin it, Moorguard, our class has been disgraced.  And amends are in order.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dont see anywhere in that quote that the intent of guardians were to be the undeniable first choice of main tank. In fact that quote reinforces Moorguards post that guardians protect their group.<BR>

[Krooner]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff0099></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>Rhianni</DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> Herrtzog wrote:<BR> <P><EM><STRONG>'Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies.  They will stand firm against any threat and <FONT color=#ff0099>lead their party to victory.'</FONT></STRONG></EM></P> <DIV>That was what I wanted in a character.  To be the undeniable first choice for main tank. </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunatley, that isn't the case anymore.  No matter how you spin it, Moorguard, our class has been disgraced.  And amends are in order.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dont see anywhere in that quote that the intent of guardians were to be the undeniable first choice of main tank. In fact that quote reinforces Moorguards post that guardians protect their group.<BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If your not colorblind try reading it again.</DIV> <DIV>This would imply that we do take the lead in battle, hence MT.  A reasonable person could convlude this.  Who are you to say they are wrong?  But either way none of the above statment is obtainable post-revamp because:</DIV> <DIV>Armor is broken (mitigation)</DIV> <DIV>because of that we cant "Stand firm agaisnt any threat"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And as far as being the "undeniable first choice of main tank"</DIV> <DIV>Thats your irrational fear and not our ambition.</DIV> <DIV>If we found ourselfs in that role then it was SOE's doing not ours.</DIV> <DIV>Now SOE is catering to the Pajama wearing tanks. So Im sure it will be their turn on the whipping post sometime.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Warbird1 on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:42 PM</span>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rhianni wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Herrtzog wrote:<BR> <P><EM><STRONG>'Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies.  They will stand firm against any threat and lead their party to victory.'</STRONG></EM></P> <DIV>That was what I wanted in a character.  To be the undeniable first choice for main tank.  </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunatley, that isn't the case anymore.  No matter how you spin it, Moorguard, our class has been disgraced.  And amends are in order.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I dont see anywhere in that quote that the intent of guardians were to be the undeniable first choice of main tank. In fact that quote reinforces Moorguards post that guardians protect their group.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Moorguard doesn't have a clue, from what I read in his post guardians do their job of protecting their group by using broken, unmitigated shield buffs.  Because yeah when we throw ourselves in front of a mage to protect him from death we make sure to take our armor off first so it doesn't get dirty...</P> <P>NO <U><STRONG>we protect the group by Taunting and holding aggro</STRONG> </U> and efficiently taking/mitigating damage so the rest of the party doesn't take damage/die/have to evac, what an ideal concept! Moorguard in his post fails to recognize this and instead goes off on the greatest spell ever Guardian Sphere! (see previous paragragh).</P> <P>I'm not saying guardians should be the number one spot for main tank but wouldn't it make sense if hmm guardians buff defense, guardians have the heaviest armor, guardians used the biggest shields.  Those shield buffs are just broken utility that I'm sure most guardians would love to just do without.</P> <P> </P>

[Hennyo]

<div></div><font size="5">The Best Defensive "Tank" <font size="3">Guardian VS Coercer My experience as comparing each of these as the main tank is based off of grouping with each for many hours in different group over a period of about 2 weeks in Silent City. 1 Damage Taken - In the guardian group, the tank required alot of healing, but had somewhat consistent amount taken each fight. In the coercer group, every member took almost no damage except when making major mistakes or doing things way beyound the groups ability. The guard group required 2 healers each doing there job quite decently to work. The coercer group had 0 - 1 healers and the healers basicaly just twidled there thumbs and had to cast a heal every now and then. 2 Aggro Control - The guardian group had the MT hold aggro vs pulled mobs pretty well tho sometimes DPS would steal aggro here or there, while adds were a whole differnt nightmare. The coercer group mainly had whoever was doing the most have aggro, but with mobs perma rooted and or stiffled it often didnt really matter who had aggro and if things got hairy they could saftly back away at any point in the fight. It was most useful to have something like a necromancers pet have aggro in this group as mob dps comes in very short spikes and long periods of nothing at all. 3 Dealing with Adds - In the guardian group this was often a nightmare, for whatever reason any dungeon group is going to have adds, and at times many at once or in the same fight. The saving grace in the guardian group was his defensive buffs. The problem was he often had taunts down when adds happened and was rooted to the ground for whatever reason, wether it be a combat art effect of his he used or a mobs root/stun ability. In any case, a rooted tank can't deal with adds period and they were normaly taken care with other means, an off tank, mage roots and or healing bursts on whoever had it on them. In the coercer group adds were a joke. The only problems we would have with adds, were ability resists which caused problems in BOTH groups and that you had to react quicker to them as you now dont have group defensive buffs but even with that in mind, as long as everyone was paying attension this wasnt an issue at all. There was a fight where we had 7 heroic adds during it, and we didnt have to yell or panic the entire battle. Now the INCERDIBLE advantage to the coercer taking care of adds is that mezed mobs can't attack, so the ONLY extra strain on the group was the lack of break between fights that had a period of time with increased power/health regen, while the extra damage adds put out during fights wiht the guardian could often cause a wipe or force us to run.  4 Defending group members - This is going to have to happen at some points in a group, when someone pulls aggro, or someone gets an add the question comes up how well can each defend his group from dying. The guardian gives the group some defensive buffs which work great when dealing with defending group members passivly, which is without question with great advantage as it dosent require insight, reaction time, or have to deal with resist problems. Now defending group members for the coercer requires him to be on his toes, but can be done very well. With adds the coercer will root or mez, with stealing aggro the coercer will stiffle/stun a mob preventing any dmg from being taken once the coercer reacts to the issue, while with the guardian group a caster will often die before he can get aggro back, and finaly dealing with AOE dmg and special abilitys, the coercer deals with these by stiffling mobs with these abilitys and having everyone who can stand away from mobs period. Which is better at defending group members really depends on situation and group make up and skill more than anything here as each has its advantages and disadvantages. 5 Fighting Named - Now with the guardian basicaly all that you has to happen is for everyone to do what there good at, and have them do it as best as possible with the method being basicaly the same between normal and named mobs. The only things you may have to do is have people stand away from the main mob, clear all adds, and have everyone use there stuns and stiffles where they can to prevent the guardian from possibly being one shoted by something like ice comet. In the coercer group fighting named can often take a raid level stratgey to win, but at the same time be much more effiecent and safer and possible with a much smaller group. The best way i can describe killing named with a coercer tank is simply it feels alot like raiding except on a smaller scale. It can take a few wipes to learn new named and can be dangerous if someone in the group does something wrong at some point during the fight once you know how to kill the named. But once you figure out a named you can just easily kill it like a walk in the park with much much less effort than it took using a guardian. 6 Group Member make up - The guardian group favors a more traditonal group make up of 2 healers a guardian and then 1 utility class and 2 dps and works best with melee dps. The coercer group favors a healer and then the rest dps with mage dps being the highly perfered type and with a ulitily class being a handy thing to have around. The coercer group also has much stricter requirements on high lvl gear than the guardian group does. 7 Soloing - Now while this isnt relavant to groups directly, its often a good measure of a classes overal value in a group. Simply put guardians have a hard time soloing most everything and have sub par dps making soloing a slow task. Coercers on the other hand, while having sub par dps like a guardian, do not suck at soloing period. Ive personaly watched a coercer solo a heroic casting named with friends that was orange on his first pull. This class without question can bring down the most deadly mobs while solo. 8 Complexity - This is simply where the guardian wins hands down when it comes to ease of use. Grouping with a guardian is quite a simple thing and dosent require everyone to have super hardcore skills for the group to work. While grouping with a coercer as the main tank this just isnt true, with a coercer as the main tank it requires that everyone knows how to play very well and as one unit. Simply put, it requires a group of ppl that know and capable of doing hardcore raids as the lack of skill or equipment in this group is very unforgiving. But with that said, i would say the coercer main tank was simply just much much more fun because of the interesting challenge it brought to each and every fight. Now with all this said, because of the completly differnt methods in which a guardian and coercer bring about group defense, it is much more ideal to have both in the same group each doing there roles to provide protection for the group as neithers abilitys hinder or cancles the others. 52 Warlock Rithrin Oasis </font></font><div></div><p>Message Edited by Hennyo on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:33 PM</span>

[JackBurtonBTLC]

<p>I totally agree with this, I mean we go through this huge class rebalancing patch (which was really a patch to slow down leveling) but the bottom line is what this guy says below, and I quote his whole point: </p> <p>"THE fundamental problem is this!  <strong><font color="#ff0000">W.T.F. </font><font color="#ff0000">do you need so many tanks for?</font></strong>  I mean really, what for?  What do they contribute? .... mean come-on, just look at the composition of any botter crew and ask yourself; why does this group consist of one tank, one healer, and 4 mage classes, (<em>scouts are dps/utility, but not included in bot crews because they are complex characters and are hard to play as bots <img src="../../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" border="0" height="16" width="16"></em> )?</p> <p><strong><font color="#669900"> </font></strong></p> <p><strong><font color="#669900">Exactly!!! my subscription runs out in days.. and I won't be back till I see better changes than the patch for those whiners that cried because the game was too easy for them.. I mean...geezz, talk about catering to a few.... </font></strong></p> <p><strong><font color="#669900"> </font></strong></p> <p><strong><font color="#669900"> </font></strong></p> <p><strong><font color="#669900"> </font></strong></p> <p> <span class="time_text"></span> </p> <div></div>

[DaxxDea]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Moorguard doesn't have a clue, from what I read in his post guardians do their job of protecting their group by using broken, unmitigated shield buffs.  Because yeah when we throw ourselves in front of a mage to protect him from death we make sure to take our armor off first so it doesn't get dirty...</BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>ahaha that was funny. If I was the presidents bodyguard and I had to dive infront of a bullet for him i'd make sure to take off my bulletproof vest in mid air so that I die.</DIV>

[Thorf]

<P>Sry to jump in but I m amased to see how guards went from decent tanks (and not ultimate ones like some are saying) to useless group buffers. After peops played their toons for 1 year that was a really nice idea... But well I ll leave U the discussions and just hope SoE will listen.</P> <P> </P> <P>Reason I m posting here is I m feared what happened to guards will happen to any other class. I like my warden, and would leave EQ instead of puting 1 year on building another toon if I was becoming let s say a DPS instead of a healer. Plz, can we have a sticky post here listing all devs' toons? I know for brawlers and warlocks but I d like to know what other devs are playing. If many players were told brawlers would be that overpowered they would have choosen that to play, instead of what was presented to be the armored groups/raids meat shields (guards). So maybe by choosing a class devs are playing, U re pretty sure to be kinda overpowered and won t fear nerfages anymore.</P>

[LadyDor]

I played Warrior in EverQuest and I Beta'd EQ2 and tried out all 3 classes...I went for Guardian, mostly because the "tank" I TRIED to be in EQ I COULD be in EQ 2. *Sigh* the Combat "Upgrade" (hahahaha) took that away from me. I know that the game will never be totally flat out across-the-board fair....that just isn't possible imho, there will always be classes that excel better at things. I get that and I accept that as a fact..HOWEVER, what I do NOT get is why people have to see other classes brought down to equal things out. Why post about Bards being a "useless buffbot" in a post about Guardians being lessened in their capacity? Personally I tend to think that all classes provide to the player and those grouped with them based on how they are played...and yes, I play a Bard as well. It is, however, my Guardian "main" that concerns me...once again I find myself falling to second or third choice for groups not based on my play-style or by choice, but rather by the mechanics of the game. I heartily agree that we have some cool stuff as far as spells SOUND...applied they simply are lacking. How does it benefit me as a Guardian to have good group buffs when groups will only take a Guardian if noone else (Warrior wise) is available? Yes, it is nice that I can help mitigation..if only that mattered. I say we do need something to call our own that has some "Ooomph" to it, but I want us given something to do this, not to see the other "tanks" lessened. We need some reason for folks to say ok to having us group with them so they can benefit from our group buffs. I'm just hoping if most of us ask nicely enough someone somewhere that can make that happen WILL make it happen. Please SOE..don't leave us hanging but I beg you...do NOT "nerf" the other Warriors in the process.

[Fippe]

<DIV>As MT in a group/raid we have allmost no usefull CU!</DIV> <DIV>The defencive stance is good, the stamina buff is ok, the defece buff is ok but thats about it. Commanding precence, anchor and wall of brawn is ok but they are a pain (in not impossible) to keep up. The 350hp buff is a joke when heroic mobs hit for 1k+, the physical damage buff does nothing for tanking and the whole avoidance and intercept line is useless unless 1. you are not MT 2. You failed to do your job so someone else got agro (in which case any reasonable guardian would use taunts in stead of interceps) I am having a really hard time finding my role in a group. Atm I am leeching of a zerker friend douing solo mobs and acting backup tank...</DIV> <DIV>That is not why I rolled a guardian...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Frostborne]

<span><blockquote><hr>Orodruin wrote:<p><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Just a follow up to this:</font></p> <p><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2"> </font></p> <p><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">With that as a premise, I don't see much advantage to any tank having utility to protect people who aren't being targetted.</font></p> <p><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">Sure, the occasional surprise add, or situations where the rest of the group must take AE damage because they cannot get out of it. But those situations are fairly rare.</font></p> <p><font face="Comic Sans MS" size="2">So does it really make much sense for a class who's defining role is to prevent everyone around him from taking any damage to have a bunch of utility arts that enable everyone around him to take more damage?</font></p><hr></blockquote> Exactly.  Group buffs for defence, do nothing for a tank, any tank, since it's usually and hopefully just him holding agro and doing the damage.   In multi-mob encounters, this might not always be the case, but if the tank is worth his salt at all and the group is decent, they are all targeting the same thing and the tank is taunting.  So that shouldn't be an issue.   Where most group buffs provide a benefit the entire group might notice, such as damage output, swing speed, run speed or the like, group protection provides nothing to them for most enounters.  The Guardians DPS is awful, the ability to hold a target to it is awful since most agro is DPS'd based, the taunts are mediocre, and the damage mitigation combined with avoidance factors are for a plate tank unimaginably pitiful.  The fact that a monk/bruiser in leather armor can stand up to an encounter much better, whether group or solo, speaks volumnes on how nerfed the Guardian class has become.   Guardians didn't sign up to be the fighter "buffer", we're not bards, we don't want to be, and we certainly didn't intend to be the fluffer for another MT.   A dirge /bard would be  way more usefull in a group and benefit  everyone within their group, where the group buffs of the Guardian are only usefull for the tank, or in buffing the other tank.  I think it's unfair to make such a blaringly drastic change to a class from one end of the spectrum to the other almost a year into the development lifecycle.</span><div></div>

[The Croak]

<DIV>Speaking from my experice as a casual gamer, I've been playing a guardian since day 1, and all I have to say is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) As the MT in my group I'm taking all the damage and noboy else in the group takes a hit. Sometimes a rare AE, but a single hit (not talking about raids) is not going to kill them, no problems.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) So WHY are so many of my defensive spells for other people in my group?!? They are pointless and don't add anything!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I get the idea that guardians are suposed to be protecting the group. But they do this best by staying alive and taking all the damge so nobody else in the group has to take that damage.  I just doesn't make sense for me to cast defensive buffs on any other member in my group except me. Period.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I seriously hope the people at EQ take a look at this and make a change soon. I really don't want to have to start over on another main character. It's taken me a year to just get this far.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Anthor</DIV>

[Storm_Runner]

<P>As a lvl 35 Guardian I've been struggling since the combat revamp with many of the same issue others here have posted about.  Soloing is slow and tedious...the biggest mob I've managed to take so far is a white con ^ and that left me in the red.  I think the only reason I survived was because of a combination of lucky rolls of the RNG and me spamming CAs and HOs as fast as I could.  While soloing It's frustrating to take a white con mob with no arrows and then see a friend who's a 35 ranger take 3 of the same mob in the same time and have more health and power left after she's done.  We both have crafted armor with a few quested/legendary pieces so that's not really a factor.  In a group I can barely handle my own damage let alone shield anyone and take theirs...not that they need it since they now take far less than I do.  If, as Moorguard stated, our "utility" is to shield others in the group and take some of their damage for them and, hence, "guard" them then how about making it something we can survive.  How about if they change one of the shield lines of combat arts to be a guardian shield buff that works on tower shields?  The buff would take the damage that we "intercept" for our groupmate and reflect it back at the mob.  Thus we can do a bit more damage and shield our groupmates at the same time...plus throwing the damage back in the mobs teeth could also serve to increase agro towards the guardian and act like a built in hate generator.  I think this might be what guardians need to help us define ourselves post-revamp and make us feel useful again.</P> <P>Balyn - Level 35 Guardian on Highkeep </P>

[Centioch]

<DIV>Hm... I am a 52 Paladain on Nektulos. I agree that Guardians could use some kind of upgrade, cause they are not really that useful. I chose to play a Paladin because I want to tank, and I do NOT agree that Guardians should be the ultimate best tanking class. I see SKs, Pallys. Zerkers and Guardians all as the classes who should be the choice of tanks for a group or a raid, all with different abilities. If one of those classes was significantly better than the others, then why on earth would anyone want to play the others, let alone invite them to a group, as other classes have more dps, utility, healing etc. What they REALLY need to do, is make all tanking classes work together more, so that it actually could be darn handy to have 2 "tanking" classes in the same group. Now don't get [Removed for Content] at me if u disagree at something I said. These are just my thoughts so far...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>R51</DIV>

[thunderfi]

<DIV>When so many Guardians complain about being nerfed It should be noticed that theres a problem and should be fixed. Our Taunts suck  armor is expensive or hard to get and what is DPS hell I thought they said PMS and said no thanks. Anyways unless someone does something about Guardians </DIV>

[familyguyfan95]

<DIV>I would just like to put my opinion in this thing.   First off i would like to say that guardians did get the shaft in the new patch.  I am not a guard but i play everyday with one and to see him reduced to having me tank(52 bruiser) with better avoidance and almost the same mit was just astonishing.  Now my brother plays a 52 inquistor and he sits right next to me while playing and for him to have to cast less spells to keep me alive than the guard is just plain pitiful.  I have had 2 friends quit playing because they didtn like what happend to their class.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now yes in the past even you guards have to agree that you were quite simply the best tanks for all sitiuations.  I have been in raids where a fully buffed non guardian tank had 3000k less hit points then you.  You had superior mitigation and superior agility if buffed right.  That was not your fault , that was the fault of the designers for letling that happen.  Raids were a cake walk becasue if you knew how to "cheat" the system a guardian could hardly be hit or killed.  This did not  make the game fun it was simply to easy.  </DIV> <DIV>However I also believe that gaurdians were supposed to be the best tank for the job..to me it says it in the name GUARDIAN!   websters dictionary defines the term as-. <B>protector: </B><SPAN class=ResultBody>somebody who or something that guards, protects, or preserves somebody or something</SPAN><BR>NO OTHER CLASS IS SOLELY MADE TO PROTECT!  IT SAYS IT IN THE NAME AND SAYS IT IN THE DEFINITION.  Look up other class names to the historical root and you will not find a better definition of its class and meaning.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For all the other ppl that say well if a guardian is the best tanking class then why should i play any other one.  Well lets take a look at that reasoning.  If you were in a raid with 12 guardians and 12 healers do you really think that it would survive.  mabye but it would take a million years.  Classes were made for DIVERSITY so that everyone was DIFFERENT .  if we could all tank like a guardian..heal like a inquistor..dps like a mage and buff like a troubador then why would we need everyone else.  So just because your not good at one thing doesnt mean you are less of a player...you just excell at something else.  If you want to be the same tanking wise then please by all means go for it...just make sure when you want to tank like a gaurdian you give up all your spells that made you different than them.  Like bruisers shouldnt be able to do mad dps..paladins shouldnt be able to do in combat rezes and heal..sks shouldnt get their evacs and wards...and so on and so on.  When you attack another class because of its dominance you forget about the weakness that it has. Everyone has something to bring to the group thats why there are 6 different types of fighters/healers/scouts/mages so that a group WORKING TOGETHER can get the job done.  A ferrari shouldnt be able to goo 200mph and still be as strong and sturdy as an A-1 Abrams Assualt tank.  A geo metro shouldnt be able to haul payloads like a 18 wheeler and still get 50 miles per gallon for fuel.  They are different and should be different and dont get mad at the guardians for their superior tank quality get mad at the game developers for not give a raid that a paladin can tank better then them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really hope they help your guardians out and listen to some of the great points that were made is this forum because from reading all the posts it sounds to me that there are alot of unhappy campers.  </DIV>

[Rebyl]

<P>/agree</P> <P>/agree</P> <P>/agree</P> <P> </P> <P>Sad to be the outcast class now - so.... I'm rolling a bruiser so I can be safe from the nerfbat with [Moorguard's Protection] (Master X) </P> <P>-retired till fix 51 Guardian :smileyvery-happy:</P><p>Message Edited by Rebyl on <span class=date_text>09-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:13 PM</span>

[Centioch]

<DIV>Definition of Paladin: "defender of a cause"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Definition of "defender": <STRONG>de·fend</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><I>v.</I> <B>de·fend·ed,</B> <B>de·fend·ing,</B> <B>de·fends </B><BR><I>v.</I> <I>tr.</I> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To make or keep safe from danger, attack, or harm. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The thing is this, that if a guardian was supposed to be the best "tank" and read "tank" not "guardian" (guardian does not equal tank), then in a ultimate group, or raids, sk's pally's or zerkers, for example, is NOT wanted, or at least as few of them as possible, whereas healers or dps classes may be highly sought for.  I dont complain on my own behalf. I play a paladin, and I am pleased with my class. I am mainly a tank with lots of diff skills. As is guardian, a tank with lots of diff skills. If you think guardians should be the ultimate tank for any cause, then thats just stupid. Guardians does not equal the ultimate tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Definition of Guardian: <STRONG>guard·i·an</STRONG>  </DIV> <OL> <LI>One that guards, watches over, or protects.</LI></OL> <DIV>A healer does the same thing. He watches over your [Removed for Content], so you dont die. The guardians should stop complaining about them not being the ultimate tank for every cause anymore, and start playing their class.  A guardian can guard the tank with spells and skills.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now before you go crazy, of course a guardian should be and is a tanking class. But imho, so is and should sks, pallys, zerkers also be. Scout classes, bruisers and such should not be that, thats just weird. Thats what I'm thinking (atm).</DIV>

[familyguyfan95]

<DIV>again certioch you are blaming the wrong person.  you say that guardians should stop complaing that they are nerfed when you should direct your complaining(complaing about them complaing) to the game developers. you tank a different way then the guardian does with different spells.  i do not play a pally so i dont know what they are.  but are the raid monsters made right now that a pally can tank them?  are a raid monsters made that an sk can tank them?  No! they arent they were made for them to tank them and thats why these ppl picked this class to be the tank!  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You claim you want tank diversity to take down these monsters but you fail to include the bruisers and monks.  Why should only Pallys and Sks and Zerkers and Guards be able to tank but leave out 2 classes in the fighter tree?  If all fighters should be able to tank them then why do you wish to leave out 2?  We are not as you say "scouts" .  Becasue we wear light armor?  Because our mitigation shouldnt be as high?  You cant include yourself in the tankage and leave out others... that is what your argument is about...pallys being included.  </DIV> <DIV>it is my opinion that not all tanks are not created equal...if they were why would their be 6?  There should only be 1 then.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for you not being picked in raids that i cannont understand because if you look at any high lvl raiding guilds they have a diversity of ppl not just one tank not just one healer not just one dps.  Look at your "buffs" and your spells and if you cannot see why you are not needed for raids and groups then i dont  know what to tell you.  We all provide benifits that keep the others alive and going and to know a classes true worth try playing without them someday and see how things go.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally as a non guardian none of the changes have affected me.  If you played your character for one yr and then all of a sudden all of your good stuff was taken away wouldnt you be [Removed for Content].  yes i see plenty of non guardians taking shots at them and telling them to quit complaining but if the shoe was on the other foot?  would you want them postign stuff on your forums to quit complaing and quit being a baby!  No i didnt think so and we should all support each other because if it happens to them it can happen to you and i'll be one of the first to post on your forum defending you!</DIV>

[Centioch]

<DIV>You misunderstand me familyguy. Or maybe I dont get my points out clearly enough. Yes I am a pally, and I do not complain about it. You said "it is my opinion that not all tanks are not created equal...if they were why would their be 6?  There should only be 1 then." This is one of my main point. Diff kind of tanks tank in diff ways. And all of them should be good enough to tank. If one class was better than all the rest in tanking, we would hardly need the other classes. Also as I said in my first post, I do agree that guardians are worse off now than before, and the way to fix it imo is to change the mobs mainly, not just boost the guardians. Why I dont include bruiser f.ex. as tanks is that I dont see them as tanks the same way I see the hvy armor warriors... Bruisers I think more of as dps. Is that wrong? I cant really picture a ninja, boxer, etc as a tank, as they are dps first and foremost.</DIV>

[Steve11418]

<div></div><p>I play most nights with my RL friend Pally 48 and my 2 RL brothers 48 Temp, 48 Ward and RL dad 48 Fury.</p><p>Me and the Pally used to share the tanking. I would buff him up, intervene and safe guard when he was tanking (mostly against casters and healer targets.. he had better divine and magic resist) And against the fighter type targets I would tank.. (he had some buff that gave me some of his mitigation… and he would heal/dps) All was well in the world.</p><p>We used to duo… I would tank and he would heal me… we both had fun.</p><p>Now he tanks all the time… no use in me Intervening anymore…. His ward takes all the damage… no reason for me to take damage as well…</p><p>He just wards himself… 700pt… 90 mana cost… uses his mana stone (does 300 dmg to ward and gives him 150 mana… for a net gain of a 400pt ward and an extra 60 mana) rinse and repeat until creature is dead.</p><p>I stand and watch… feeling guilty for using up some of their xp for low dps contribution… I raise his mitigation some… but my brother the templar does it better… and he can heal!!! Which person would you rather duo with.</p><p>So I craft now… gone from level 11 to 22 since the CU.</p><div></div>

[familyguyfan95]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Exactly...you believe that a bruiser shouldnt be a better tank than a pally because we do dps and dont wear heavy armor. Now lets take a look at this. If we go strickly by dps then the figher tree is something like this</P> <P>tier 1 tier 2 tier 3</P> <P>bruiser sk zerker</P> <P>monk pally guard</P> <P>then a bruiser cant be a better tank than a pally or sk because he does more damage and wears light armor. so that would make him more dps and less tank</P> <P>now an sk or pally does more dps than a zerker or guard but less than a bruiser or monk</P> <P>they also wear heavy armor. so it would be safe to say that they do less damage than a bruiser or monk but tank better than a bruiser or monk can</P> <P>well then a zerker or guard who does less damage than a sk or pally..still wears the same heavy armor still can equip a shield...shouldnt they be able to tank better than a pally or sk? It doesnt make sense. Why would someone who does more damage than another class be able to tank the same? </P> <P>If you can not classify all fighters as proper tanks then you have DIVIDED THEM INTO CATEGORIES AND MADE ONE A BETTER TANK THAN THE OTHER! If you can do this then dont you think that that the developers have done this also and have broken them down into differnt tankage groups..one being weaker than the other but still important factor in order to win. </P> <P>So if you cant be from tier one and tank as well as tier 2...then why should a tier 2 be able to tank better than a tier 3? </P> <P>Now by no means am i saying this is correct as i am not a game developer only a player and using what i have seen. My information could be wrong...but to say that a "boxer or ninja" cant tank better than a crusader because they "are foremostly dps" to a pally or sk would mean that a crusader is foremostly dps to a guardian or zerker and shouldnt be able to tank better than them. </P></FONT></DIV>

[familyguyfan95]

I would also like to add that I in no way think of your pally as a subpar tank.  I wish you luck in your quest to get better tank upgrades so that you would be able to tank those epic mobs.  Although i guess it comes down to my belief on what a tank is and what your view on what a tank is.  I probably dont understand your point of view as best since i am not a heavy armor wearer and fully dont understand mitigation and avoidance 100%( but really who can..lol)  We agree on one thing and that is guardians are severly underpowered right now and let us all rally to bring our fellow tank brothers back up to something they can be proud of and once again find their role in groups and raids.

[Rebyl]

/cheer familyguy Thanks for seeing the flight from our end and voicing an outside view. It's pretty refreshing to know that others are aware of the current situation with the guardian class. Sony needs to fix this. Period. We should be able to tank as well as the other fighter classes albeit in our own way.  Otherwise.... why not just revert to fighter/mage/thief/priest and call it good? The intent (since pre-beta posts) was that any class within the archetype would be able to fulfill the primary role in a group... until you cripple one leg of the archetype. If from the gate the ultimate tanking class was going to be ______________ I would have played one. Understanding that all things were going to be generally equal, and also understanding the basic roles as explained - Guardian - Strong Tank - low DPS - Low Utility Zerker - Medium Tank - High DPS Pally/SK - Medium Tank - Medium DPS - High Utility Monk/Bruiser - Light Tank - Uber DPS - Medium Utility The choice for me was clear; the trade off seemed evident - I had no intention to out DPS any other fighter class - ever. BUT - I wanted to be able to take a 5' tall tower shield and stand in on [Giant_Kill_Ya_Fast_Mob_006743] and take a pounding for my guild so we could achieve some higher goals in the game with the healers and DPS keeping me on my feet and doing their job to the best of their ability. We had some great fights. To define guardian as a strong utility class is insulting - I personally would be worried if I saw a battlefield of 50000 tower shield carrying spiked armor clad maniacs in a fantasy genre movie - in EQ2 we have to psyche em out by wearing our pj's. I do understand both angles - and appreciate the people who said "you arent the only show in town anymore - get used to it" - thanks for your comments. The question remains - what happens when someone decides your class is too strong - and they cut all your attributes by 25%, decrease your DPS by 31%, or make your pet a [Removed for Content]? Hmm.... Ice comet is too strong - lets give it a 1 hour reuse and make it cost 2000 mana....... yeah..... and when it goes off the caster is rooted for 5 minutes and his AC is halved..... woot! Thats the ticket! THEN - and only then.... you may appreciate when an entire class is screaming for a fix. But just know, guardians being the first to take a hit like this (welcome to your new class) - we will be the likely ones there to defend you when it comes your way. Someone isnt happy - do a /who all guardian on your server and check the numbers. Then, do a /who all {any_other_class} and compare. Consumers are smart.... you wouldnt buy a car after reading the review and learning it looked sweet but only had 35 horsepower right? Now - consider this: You pay for a car that is supposed to be able to drive off road.... you get it - love it. You own it for 10 months and give it a name... you drive it everywhere and have the time of your life. One day, out of nowhere, the dealership recalls it for a mandatory fix. You get it back and they replaced your V10 with a 2 banger, and cut your ground clearance to 2" skidplate. Would you be mad? /food_for_thought <div></div>

[LadyDor]

Thanks Familyguyfan....I thank you sooooo much for your voice of support. So many folks out there seem to think that ALL Guardians, every single one of them on every Server, were thinking we would be (always and forever) THE Tank. So few of them realise this is not the case. I'm sure there are alot out there that did feel that way and that still feel SOE should make it that way...but not ALL of us. I said it before and I'll say it again...Heck, I'll shout it from the mountain tops..."I want to be improved to be ON PAR with other Warriors NOT above them. I want my class "fixed" WITHOUT lowering the other fighters". I am well aware that the purpose of so many types of "tanks" was variety (the spice of life)...I chose Guardian because of what SoE SAID a Guardian would be, because of what it WAS when I played BETA and for the first 10 months of the Live game. To have given us group buffs and then made us so NOT desired BY GROUPS...that is not an upgrade. People seem to think that we are whiners, that in truth the ONLY reason we aren't happy is that we aren't the ONLY Tanks now....they fail to see we are saying they took it to the extreme....they saw us as too powerful and lowerd us and bumped up the others, thereby tipping the scale in the other direction..not leveling it off. I love playing this game...and would much prefer to do it as my Guardian, which I am. However, the ONLY reason I am is that my husband also plays so I can duo with him. Too bad that groups see him on as his Inquis and want him...but when he says he's with me and could we both join they say "Pass"...not because they don't have room but because they don't want a Guardian. Funny, in game they KNOW we are gimped, but so many of them come here and say nothing is wrong and we are just whining cry-babies who need to shut up and get a life (usually they suggest doing so by us creating a Monk...hrmmmm). Methinks something is VERY rotten in Denmark.

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>familyguy nice points made but... my thought is that soe does not want any of the fighter tanks to out tank anyone in the fighter trees. This means that soe is trying to go back to their original theory where , fighers tank, scouts dps, clerics heal, mage nukes debuff etc.. If a monk cannot tank then he should be put in the scout category correct? it is just the orignal way they designed the game, monks are fighters, fighters are tanks. They just all tank differently, dps is another subject cause that includes how the fighter tanks, monks use dps to tank, dps = aggro. Paladins use wards/ heals (broken?) ,  sk's dps , zerker dps etc.. guardians my guess is to use protection / defense buff/ taunting. I do not think a monk tanks better than a guardian because a monk is tanking to save his own skin, not the groups, however the guardian is supposed to use his spells to keep damage on the guardian using taunts spells etc.. I say supposed to because its not reeally working as intended, right now guardians are at the bottom of the list.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>as for which fighter takes more damage and which fighter avoids it more? i dont think that is an issue, the guardian shouuld be getting hurt the most, why? because his spells are meant to take damage away from other group members, hence protection, the monk is not supposed to get hit because he wears [Removed for Content] cloth.  its not a question of taking damage equally , its a question of which one protects the group better. If a mob loses control who do you trust more to regain aggro, a monk or guardian, well bad question but a guardian is the one your supposed to trust more and thats the job of the guardian. I'm not defending soe because this is a bugged theory and guardians need a rehash ASAP.</DIV>

[StGeorg]

<DIV>Hello fellow Guardians and non-Guardians,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my 1st post on this board and English is my 2nd language so please don’t be too hard on me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV>First of all I am glad to find this topic in the forum. The reason that I was looking for it is that I was very curious that while I am a very social level 44 Guardian, that takes tanking for a group seriously if I may add, I have only received 3 x /tells for invites in the last week combined even after spending nearly 30 hours online last week (with at least 12 of those having the LFG flag set). The only invite that was not heritage quest related came eventually from a guild member. The number of random tells that I receive for grouping has dropped pretty much to null.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never played EQ and I have only been playing EQ2 since April 2005. I still consider myself a noob in many ways. I picked the Guardian class because I wanted to tank and leave all the fancy casting and stealth attack to others. I was made aware of being a little slow on handing out damage rather quickly. Soloing was and is still very slow, green heroics ^ 4 levels under me can still mob the floor with my character which is fine as I have no legendary or fabled gear. I knew that I could make up for the lack of  solo-XP as soon as I would find a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am seriously worried now as that option appears to be gone too. Like the rest of you, since the DoF release, I have seen both casters and scouts easily out-tank me. Healers could actually go /afk and /af while the same or close-to same level DPS’ers were tanking and I was assisting in dual-wield mode, whereas if I was tanking the healer would have to keep a very close eye on their flimsy Guardian with his apparent good for nothing armor and keep healing me like a madman. It has come to the point where I feel like a burden to the group, leeching their xp and making them work overtime and waste their power to keep me alive.</DIV> <DIV>I wish SOE would have added character class change option under the /respec as I would have rather had a Zerker or Crusader class right about now. I will probably continue crafting on him so you may catch him on "/who all guardian", but other than that, as Goethe stated in his post:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>“He is real useful and harvesting rares for the new alt that I am leveling so I can actually play a class that has a use in a group!”</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than this huge flaw, I really like EQ2. Too bad, I hope they will fix it. I am for fairness in for all classes and don't need or want to be Ueber, just let me participate without having guilttrips. But especially with the new /duel system how can anybody expect us to work with what we were given? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Antedeluvian<BR>Level 44 Guardian, Level 40 Armorer<BR>Lonely Weakling of the Unrest Server<BR>(currently in hiding and shaking with fear inside an Oakmyst Animal Den)</DIV>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> StGeorg wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hello fellow Guardians and non-Guardians,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is my 1st post on this board and English is my 2nd language so please don’t be too hard on me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV> <DIV>First of all I am glad to find this topic in the forum. The reason that I was looking for it is that I was very curious that while I am a very social level 44 Guardian, that takes tanking for a group seriously if I may add, I have only received 3 x /tells for invites in the last week combined even after spending nearly 30 hours online last week (with at least 12 of those having the LFG flag set). The only invite that was not heritage quest related came eventually from a guild member. The number of random tells that I receive for grouping has dropped pretty much to null.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never played EQ and I have only been playing EQ2 since April 2005. I still consider myself a noob in many ways. I picked the Guardian class because I wanted to tank and leave all the fancy casting and stealth attack to others. I was made aware of being a little slow on handing out damage rather quickly. Soloing was and is still very slow, green heroics ^ 4 levels under me can still mob the floor with my character which is fine as I have no legendary or fabled gear. I knew that I could make up for the lack of  solo-XP as soon as I would find a group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am seriously worried now as that option appears to be gone too. Like the rest of you, since the DoF release, I have seen both casters and scouts easily out-tank me. Healers could actually go /afk and /af while the same or close-to same level DPS’ers were tanking and I was assisting in dual-wield mode, whereas if I was tanking the healer would have to keep a very close eye on their flimsy Guardian with his apparent good for nothing armor and keep healing me like a madman. It has come to the point where I feel like a burden to the group, leeching their xp and making them work overtime and waste their power to keep me alive.</DIV> <DIV>I wish SOE would have added character class change option under the /respec as I would have rather had a Zerker or Crusader class right about now. I will probably continue crafting on him so you may catch him on "/who all guardian", but other than that, as Goethe stated in his post:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>“He is real useful and harvesting rares for the new alt that I am leveling so I can actually play a class that has a use in a group!”</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other than this huge flaw, I really like EQ2. Too bad, I hope they will fix it. I am for fairness in for all classes and don't need or want to be Ueber, just let me participate without having guilttrips. But especially with the new /duel system how can anybody expect us to work with what we were given? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Antedeluvian<BR>Level 44 Guardian, Level 40 Armorer<BR>Lonely Weakling of the Unrest Server<BR>(currently in hiding and shaking with fear inside an Oakmyst Animal Den)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>welcome to the forums =D...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>very nicly put post</DIV>

[LadyDor]

Well put StGeorg. SoE needs to take notice how many of any given class play and how many of us Guardians here are saying over and over how we can't find a group because NONE WANT US. If this doesn't indicate a problem, I don't know what does. I duo when my Husbands home and can play his Inquisitor..I solo when he isn't available. I want to group with more folks and play the game but, as StGeorg stated in the above post, that just doesn't seem to be an option anymore. I can't believe I am one of so few in number who sees that when a class can't get groups because of their class there IS a problem. I'm not going to stop playing my Guardian and I'm not going to stop asking SoE to "fix" Guardians...I don't care how many of the other folks out there call me a whiner and a baby. I just hope all those folks don't have a Nerfbat pointed at them anytime soon so that they have to be pointed at and called names by others like them. I won't indulge in the finger-pointing or name calling...but I won't raise my voice in their favor either...aww who am I kidding, yes I will...because I think NO one class should stand out head-and-shoulders over others AND I believe no one class should be so far down the list that Groups don't want them.

[Aven Elonis]

<P>Well I had a group in Living Tombs last night that was one of best groups I've had in a while. (Templer, Fury, Coercer, Necro, Wizard and Me). Everyone was 50 to 51, with me at 52 (I think I have the levels and classes right).</P> <P>We worked on the first part of the Access to Silent City Quest, spend about 2 hours and got it done, about 20% XP for me (including 2 deaths).</P> <P>I was invited to the group, I did not have a LFG up, but some people still know I'm at least a decent tank. The group was half guild, half other guilds, a pick up group for sure. But everyone knew now to play thier character, and used whatever aggro supression, aggro transfer spells they had.</P> <P>On any single target or single group, I held aggro fine. On multiple groups (i.e. adds), it could be a problem. But group knew to let me know about adds, so I could get them, before they started attacking them.</P> <P>Freely admit that having a coercer mezzing things took some getting use to. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But the group breeze was nice. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Still needed two healers for damage (particularily if I lost aggro, and definitely against Flowmaster and Princess).</P> <P>Now on the other hand, my guild is going to use a Pally as MT on the next raid. So much for the old days.  (And we are the same level).</P> <P>I'd like to see our Utility made into something that would actually get used. I'd like to see a better balance between avoidance tanks and migitation tanks.</P> <P> </P> <P>But all in all the group I had last night was good enough to remind me why I still play, despite the job they did on my Guardian and I what I preceive to be the lost of the MT job on raids in general. Sigh. (Maybe if they fix cobalt armor to be worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]......but that's another problem.)</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN>Aven Elonis</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>52 Guardian, Steamfont, Tempest</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Feldorm wrote: Hello everyone else, I am a…Guardian… and I can double the damage our group takes by using my “protection” skills! I can root, snare, debuff and cripple myself in 12 different ways, and explode my heart too!</SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></P> <P> </P>

[thunderfi]

Started  a Guardian to be a tank no other reason, even stopped playing my monk now im seeing I leveled the wrong char nice thanks SOE what's next?

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>you guys ever been in a group with 1 other guardian and you weren't the tank? i have never felt so useless in my life.</DIV>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ironmeow wrote:<BR> <DIV>you guys ever been in a group with 1 other guardian and you weren't the tank? i have never felt so useless in my life.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT face=Verdana>Haha, that was as true before the CU as it is now!  I would never group with other Guardians, unless it was my friend and we were goofing around.</FONT> 

[Tridyed]

<P>I can't believe what Im seeing .... SO the suggestion from the devs is that the guardian is a buffer? LOLOLOLOLOLOL  good lord... have any of the devs actually thought about that?</P> <P>This is so insane its almost a joke. Anyone who takes a main tank class thats in plate armor weilds a huges weapon and makes them a buff bot is stupid. You can flash all the pretty little charts ya want but in the end its just plain stupid. In this vein of though I would say we will all be in for a shock soon when Summoners lose pets and they will be MT's and Scout types will be casting more spells than anyone and healers will be the dps class. COME ON GET A BRAIN!!!! </P> <P>You should know better and still you persist on trying your best to ruin this game. We all know you want your bruiser class ot be the uber tank but did ya really have to break the game to do it? Why not come out and say ... "Hey alot of people picked the wrong class for what they actually wanted to have so we are revamping the whole game around thier mistakes". I am very sorry some people thought that a class wearing cloth would be a better tank than a class with plate armor and massive damage weapons. If you did then two things should come to the forefront... 1) maybe I should re start and pick the proper class as a MT or 2) Go to pac man, its easier to make the right choice of which char to play.</P> <P>No game through tha's has been this blind and so badly thought out on so many levels. Even Horizones and Shadowbane got the Plate class as MT's. And those are the worse games I have seen .... well up till this patch that is.</P>

[bigmak20]

Guardians role is to buff the group against damage? Stupid me I guess.  I always thought the a tanks role was to take damage and hold aggro. Let's slightly rephrase Moorgard's post: <font size="5"><b>Guardians: Your job is to buff the Brawlers.  They're the real tanks.</b></font>

[Mig]

If all tanking is going to be equal fine. Give me more DPS. Give me more DPS than a brawler. We have the least utility, we should have the most DPS. Fair is fair. If you take tanking ability and aggro holding ability out of the equation as SOE seems to want to do, then to be a balanced archtype a class with the least amount of utility should have the most DPS.

[StGeorg]

<P>I agree, take away all my group buffs, let me keep some taunts and give me some serious damage spells => I will be a happy camper. </P> <P>If tanking was to be equal I have to ask myself that why a same level tank of a different subclass (with non-fabled fulginate imbued gear) can kill me in a duel with him having 3/4 of his entire health bar left? How is that being an equal tank? Should it not be that we both should go down to close to 0 health (plus - minus given levels and gear)?</P> <P>Also, the number one (1!) reason I picked the guardian over any other class, when sitting on the throne studying the game handbook on subclasses all excited, was that Guardians were supposedly the ONLY class that can wear PLATE armor. What has happend with that? I want my class specific armor, that was the deal when I bought the game! All heavy armor is Vanguard, what is up with that?!?</P> <P>There is 2 ways to make this fair in my opinion:</P> <P>1. Make us able to hand out DPS like any other tank out there and take away our useless group buffs/spells. Or if you cannot take them out of the game give the same useless group buffs to other sub-classes so we are all equal indeed. </P> <P>I only have 2 high damage ability spells at Level 47 - Crush and Retaliate - Crush actually hits for than 530 dmg but I have had that very spell since level 36. Give me something that will make a serious dent into the HP number of the green^ encounter. When I look at the Guardian Ability list I see 1 high damage offense skills for level 40 - 50 with is Blast. </P> <P>(What is Overwhelm for btw? It says it is an extra high damage attack - it only hits for 128-196 or so, am I using it wrong?)</P> <P>2. Give us our class defining armor/shields, keep us at the lowest DPS in the fighter sub-class that we have always had, but make us matter by letting that VERY expensive armor, that we have  to supply ourselves with, matter. That will assure that while we may have to spend 3 times the amout of time to get xp from an encounter, we can at least eventually wear the attacking mob down instead of slicing and dicing it like others do. </P> <P> </P> <P>PS: Note on Gaige's posts. If you are not a Guardian or have an alt that is, on what grounds do you base "all is fine for the guardians" posts on? I honestly find that a little unfair, as it seems like you are on a solo-mission to keep us unhappy with the characters we have chosen and invested so much time in.  As EVERY Guardian in the post was stating, "we don't want to be better tanks than you, we want to be able to tank just as good though!" </P> <P>That is why we chose this class to begin with for crying out loud. I think from reading the various post we are ALL for equality. Monks should be good tanks for avoidance while guardians should be good tanks because of heavy plate armor mitigation. The other classes fighter classes should be variances of these two extremes. </P> <P>For fighters IMHO - if you have more DPS you should be a slighly weaker tank as you will kill your foe faster, less DPS you should be a better tank have more HP's or better avoidance/mitigation so you can fight the mob longer. It is not that complicated or am I missing something?</P> <P> </P> <P>Antedeluvian - 46 Guardian</P> <P>Lonely Weakling of Unreast</P> <P>Full-time Harvester of Feerott (when not being chased away from node by blue non-heroic solo mob)</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by StGeorg on <span class=date_text>10-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 PM</span>

[Ironmeow]

<DIV>make guardians slower, reduce their dps, increase their tuant potency x2, give them a x2 mitigation mutliplier. Have their armor wisdom based,.. there we are fixed</DIV>

[WaltherP99]

<DIV>I don't know if this is could have any un-inteneded consequences or if this is a completely stupid idea, but here's an idea for a unique utility for Guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Way back when in beta I believe the Fighter(possibly just warriors, I can't recall) class used to be able to repair gear in the field via field repair.  From what I understand this was removed at least in part so that people would still need to come back to the cities and congregate.  It seems though that this has become less of an emphasis now because of the menders further out in zones like at TS/Nek docks.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What about giving the Guardian a limited ability to repair  gear out in the field?  Now obviously if this was available all the time any time I think it would be much to powerful, but maybe just allow one suit or possibly one piece of armor at a time do be done.  To offset the mender costs the Guardians would be required to go back to the mender and get some more repair supplies (at a cost of course) each time before he/she would be able to repair another suit/piece of armor?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As I mentioned I am not sure if this would cause other major problems, but it would add a unique ability to Gaurdians that no one else would have.</DIV>

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>WaltherP99QA wrote:<div></div> <div>I don't know if this is could have any un-inteneded consequences or if this is a completely stupid idea, but here's an idea for a unique utility for Guardians.</div> <div> </div> <div>Way back when in beta I believe the Fighter(possibly just warriors, I can't recall) class used to be able to repair gear in the field via field repair.  From what I understand this was removed at least in part so that people would still need to come back to the cities and congregate.  It seems though that this has become less of an emphasis now because of the menders further out in zones like at TS/Nek docks.  </div> <div> </div> <div>What about giving the Guardian a limited ability to repair  gear out in the field?  Now obviously if this was available all the time any time I think it would be much to powerful, but maybe just allow one suit or possibly one piece of armor at a time do be done.  To offset the mender costs the Guardians would be required to go back to the mender and get some more repair supplies (at a cost of course) each time before he/she would be able to repair another suit/piece of armor?</div> <div> </div> <div>As I mentioned I am not sure if this would cause other major problems, but it would add a unique ability to Gaurdians that no one else would have.</div><hr></blockquote>Well, maybe we'd start using Tower of Stone occasionally then. ;p</span><div></div>