Possible Mitigation solution

[Raahl]

<DIV>Please add the Shield Factor to the characters mitigation value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now Pristine Cedar (rare) Tower Shield has a Shield Factor of 600'ish. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This will do two things.</DIV> <OL> <LI>Raise the mitigation for those that use shields.   Everyone, not just guardian.</LI> <LI>Makes the Tower Shield have an advantage to the other shields because of it's higher shield factor.</LI></OL> <P>To me this is the clearest answer to the mitigation issues.  </P>

[JBo]

Right now, a pristine imbued cedar tower shield can only block about 14% melee attacks at level 50. This block rate is way too low, considering the large size and the quality of the tower shield. I would suggest at least 20% - 30% block rate for all tower shields.

[Danter]

<DIV>The best way to fix mitigation for guardians is to make the Commanding Presence line take up a concentration slot and have an infinite duration and to increase defense where it actually works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would give us a permenant 250 increase in mitigation and it would actually distinguish us a bit from other plate classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instead, guardians get to buff defense up which does next to nothing now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tank without Call of Protection up.  Then tank with Call of Protection adept 3 up.  You'll then notice your damage intake *DID NOT CHANGE*.</DIV>

[Tyrion]

<DIV>Raising the defence value increases our avoidance, even if by a little bit. So damage itself will stay the same, but you won't get hit as often.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just not seeing the mitigation problems everyone else is, which is strange. 50 Gaurd here, and I've been tanking just fine both soloing and grouping. I honestly don't see the need for more mitigation. Guild mates still notice the difference with a Guardian tanking over any other tank class (In that its a lot easier for the healers specifically), so it looks like I'm in the minority.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What mobs are you fighting that you require more mitigation? Don't tell me you're using level 55+ heroics as examples, cause that's rediculous. Con colour really is important now, so going against level 54 mobs and below is your best way to gauge mitigation (Going on the pretense that you're 50).</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tyrion on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:11 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote:<BR> <DIV>Raising the defence value increases our avoidance, even if by a little bit. So damage itself will stay the same, but you won't get hit as often.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yes I do not want blocking to go up, that raises avoidance and we are fine on it.  We are suppose to be hit.  I'd like to see the shield factor added to the mitigation value.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Tyrion wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'm just not seeing the mitigation problems everyone else is, which is strange. 50 Gaurd here, and I've been tanking just fine both soloing and grouping. I honestly don't see the need for more mitigation. Guild mates still notice the difference with a Guardian tanking over any other tank class (In that its a lot easier for the healers specifically), so it looks like I'm in the minority.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Our mitigation is slightly above that of non-plate fighters but our avoidance is a lot less.  We get hit a lot more often for slightly less than a non-plate fighters.    It's tougher for healers to keep us alive and they use more power.   Plus other fighters have ways of healing themselves, we don't.   So it's better to go with a non-plate tank.  So my solution is to raise our mitigation, we still get hit often, but for less.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Tyrion wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What mobs are you fighting that you require more mitigation? Don't tell me you're using level 55+ heroics as examples, cause that's rediculous. Con colour really is important now, so going against level 54 mobs and below is your best way to gauge mitigation (Going on the pretense that you're 50). <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I only fight heroics in a group.  I've never had much luck fighting them solo.  Besides they were not worth the time and effort, when I could kill 3-6 times as many solo's in that time.  Rarely did I fight anything above yellow pre-patch, post patch I've been grouped mostly and the biggest solo I've fought was a single down arrow yellow.<BR>

[Raahl]

<DIV><STRONG><U>Part 1:</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Add mitigation based on shield type and tier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tower Shield Mitigation = Tier x 75</DIV> <DIV>Kite Sheild Mitigation = Tier x 55</DIV> <DIV>Round Shield Mitigation = Tier x 40</DIV> <DIV>Buckler Shield Mitigation = Tier x 20</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would be for all shields in a given tier.   Fabled, legendary and crafted would supply the same value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Part 2:</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Make Mitigation mean more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now it seems that mitigation is undervalued when it comes to a tanks defense.   Whether it be because it only mitigates physical damage or some other unforseen problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Perhaps raising the resistances on plate armor will help, I'm not completely sure that's what will help.</DIV> <DIV>Perhaps allowing a percentage of mitigation on non-physical damage.  Though will this unbalance things?</DIV> <DIV>Perhaps the solution would be to reduce the damage from non-physical attacks. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any ideas?</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>They should just make commanding presence/aura a permanent concentration buff...I mean it would make sense since we are the best defensive buffer's correct?</DIV>

[sylvo]

Apart from the fact that mitigation appears to be a bit borked atm I dont think moving commanding presence/aura to a concentration buff would solve anything - primarily because its a group buff. It would be nice but that would be the smallest of bones they could throw our way. Dumb idea I know but they have used +mit vs slashing and so on on armor and as traits - they dont seem to have used this in buffs in anyway. Maybe if they gave the plate classes a couple of nice +crushing and +slashing buffs (enough to make a noticeable difference not just 120 or something stupid) And then gave the nimbler brawlers + piercing defense or something. It would still allow brawlers their niche give them advantage on certain epic encounters if tuned appropriately but would still address a more general issue with plate tanks....... Anyway like I said dumb idea :p Farhane. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<P>Raahl adding mitigation will not solve guardians problems at all. I have no problem adding mitgation to shields if it was reasonable amount and not so inflated that no shield user would every put down a shield. But you still have not realised that mitigation will not fix any probems that arrived since LU13.</P> <P>mitigation wont solve the current guards issues such as:</P> <DIV> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)</P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled or t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. </P> <P>The solution is alot simpler. Just lowering avoidance on very light, light and medium armour by 10%. the fatc is the mitigation gap is smaller compared to the avoidance gap using sixman's numbers.</P> <P>1. although it will not solve the issue by lowering avoidance of other classes the disparity between the plate and other classes will be significantly lowered.</P> <P>2. The 80% cap is easily reached in group settings. even w adept 3 spells in key buffs. by raising mitigation this will further meet the mitigation cap and offer no futher improvement. As the game progresses and players increase thier gear to t6 quality and spells to adept 3 this will further be noticable. The problem is mitigation is increased alot easier then avodiance. Heck you can buy a 300+ mitgation potion but there is no avodiance potion. What will happen is brawlers will hit the same mitgation cap easier then guards yet have higher avodiance since avoidnace is alto harder to increase. hence brawlers would still be preferred. by lowering avoidnace by 10% the gap will still be there but less noticable.</P> <P>3. since alot of mobs in DoF have non trauma mitgation and scouts atm have a higher avodiance then plate tanks scouts are performing equally well if not better in soem occasions then a plate tank. By lowering avoidance on VL, L, and medium armour by 10% this will no longe rbe the case as plate tanks will have equal or higher avodiance.</P> <P>4. By lowering avoidance by 10% brawlers will be less likely to solo heroic whle still being able to tank effectively. hence all fighters shoudl be tanking comparably. </P> <P>finally i find it funny that guards deem themselves the best tank. Whereas 5 other subclasses can tank equally and not have a problem. If a brawler tanked as well as a shadowknight no one would care and no one would say we are the same class. Becuase our secondary abilites aere completely different yet balanced. shadowknights are a plate class too yet them tanking as well as a bruiser would not be an issue. a paladin tanking as well as a monk would never be an issue. Each class is different and if each class tanked the same no one would complain. The fact is one subclass Believes they should tank the best and to offset that supremecy they should have no secondary abilites. That makes no sense. If a templar claimed he shoudl be the best healer and didn't want any buffs or dps. Healers would be in an uproar. That is the issue that is at hand. </P> <P>It is true though there can never be perfect balance even if they fixed classes again one class would always be deemed the best for tanking. The only solution to this problem is what i suggested in beta "situational tanking". We need mob types that are better suited for certain fighters. For instance a warrior will be the best tank for dragon type heavy hitting trauma mobs. a crusader would be the best at tanking the caster type or mobs that autoatk spell damage. the brawlers would be the best at tanking multiple mobs or scouts/brawler type mobs. The mechanics are already in place they just need to implement it correctly. This would make RP and game balnce sense. And IMHO the only solution to fighter equality without classe spointing fingers at who is the best.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>It is not like eq2 is so difficult at the moment that it requires characters to be buffed. For instance i can still solo heroic blue mobs in SS. w/o any armour on using just my prismatic sixta's fbss, 2 agi dolls and buffs not using any of the Now useless mitigation buffs. Basically this is less mitigation and avoidance then any guardian i have seen yet i am still able to solo heroic. It is based on the abilites of the class an area that guardians have a severe lacking. Looking at mitgation adn claiming it to be a fix for guardians is only a bareminded solution. If anything asking for mitigation to have a reasonable effect would be better. </SPAN></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:57 AM</span>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote: <DIV> <P>finally i find it funny that guards deem themselves the best tank. Whereas 5 other subclasses can tank equally and not have a problem. If a brawler tanked as well as a shadowknight no one would care and no one would say we are the same class. Becuase our secondary abilites aere completely different yet balanced. shadowknights are a plate class too yet them tanking as well as a bruiser would not be an issue. a paladin tanking as well as a monk would never be an issue. Each class is different and if each class tanked the same no one would complain. The fact is one subclass Believes they should tank the best and to offset that supremecy they should have no secondary abilites. That makes no sense. If a templar claimed he shoudl be the best healer and didn't want any buffs or dps. Healers would be in an uproar. That is the issue that is at hand. It is true though there can never be perfect balance even if they fixed classes again one class would always be deemed the best for tanking. The only solution to this problem is what i suggested in beta situational tanking. We need mob types that are better suited for certain fighters. For instance a warrior will be the best tank for dragon type heavy hitting trauma mobs. a crusader would be the best at tanking the caster type or mobs that autoatk spell damage. the brawlers would be the best at tanking multiple mobs or scouts/brawler type mobs. The mechanics are already in place they just need to implement it correctly. This would make RP and game balnce sense. And IMHO the only solution to fighter equality without classe spointing fingers at who is the best.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana>What's a Guardian's "second" ability Gungo? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I think you are misunderstanding what Guardians want. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>Put me in a group of any 20 fighters from any class with the same class abilities to tank and I will out-tank all of them.  So I don't really care if there is a gaggle of tanks 'competing' for tank jobs, because I am better by my ability, not by my class, and I will beat them every time. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>What is unfair is to give 5 other classes 10 secondary abilities apiece and to give Guardians none.  And in addition, to make Guardians lesser than those 5 other classes in their primary ability.  Tell me how that's fair and balanced and I will publically agree with you. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>*Edit: I r gud speeler.</FONT></P><p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:58 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>I never claimed gaurds were balanced did I? In fact i was recommendeding brawlers (and all non plate wearers) have a reduction in avodiance by 10%. From what you wrote it seems guardians are not comparabel to other fighters in a specific area. That area is those secodnary abilites.</P> <P>like i said what do you think would happen if templars decided they wanted no buffs or dps and significantly better heals then other healers? a giant uproar w healers.</P> <P>how come shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers could all tank the same and have different skills yet be accepted, yet a guardian pally and monk all tanking can not be.</P> <P>you claim you have no secondary skills, so need mroe tanking. i claim you have low secondary skills and need some more to compensate.</P> <P>But that is not my real issue in this thread my point is a marginal mitigation increase is a flawed fix for gaurdians.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>It is not like eq2 is so difficult at the moment that it requires characters to be buffed to fix imbalances. For instance i can still solo heroic blue mobs in SS. w/o any armour on using just my prismatic sixta's fbss, 2 agi dolls and buffs not using any of the now useless short duration bruiser mitigation buffs. Basically this is less mitigation and avoidance then any guardian i have seen yet i am still able to solo heroic. It is based on the abilites of the class an area that guardians have a severe lacking. Looking at mitgation adn claiming it to be a fix for guardians is only a bareminded solution. If anything asking for mitigation to have a reasonable effect would be better. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:10 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:11 AM</span>

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo.</P> <P> </P> <P>You just had to put that out there huh.  </P> <P>My 51 guard has 3 fableds and the rest is legendary ebon.</P> <P>With all my buffs up and 2 potions, rings buffed, I can solo a blue heroic in SS.</P> <P>I can maybe solo a 2 up blue.  But not usually.  </P> <P>The only way to make this fair is to FIX mitigation.</P> <P>If they are not going to do that then give us the buffs to balance us with the other classes.</P> <P>I watched a 52 Bruiser last night solo Siphon.  Im sure he had some help from potions and what not.  But that still should not be possible.  It isnt with a plate wearing tank so why should it be possible with a leather wearing tank?</P> <P> </P>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT face=Verdana>I never claimed gaurds were balanced did I? From what you wrote it seems guardians lack are not comparabel to other fighters in a specific area. That area is those secodnary abilites.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000>Yes.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>like i said what do you think would happen if templars decided they wanted no buffs or dps and significantly better heals then other healers? a giant uproar w healers.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=#ff0000>But, the difference is that no Guardian ASKED for this.  It was inherently part of a flawed system.</FONT>  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>how come shadowknights, zerkers, and bruisers could all tank the same and have different skills yet be accepted, yet a guardian pally and monk all tanking can not be.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=#ff0000>Because Monks have Feign Death, Heal, Water Breathing, Safe Fall, Invisibility Capability, Magic Attacks, Flurry and Guardians have.... umm yeah.</FONT>  </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>you claim you have no secondary skills, so need mroe tanking. i claim you have low secondary skills and need some more to compensate.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000>I never claimed that.  What I claimed was the exact same thing you are saying.  That if you take away the ONE ability that I have, then you MUST compensate me with 2ndary abilities.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>But that is not my real issue in this thread my point is a marginal mitigation increase is a flawed fix for gaurdians.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000>My point is that they should have left it alone in the first place, and we wouldn't need to have this conversation.  However, I do understand your point of view. </FONT></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT face=Verdana>It is not like eq2 is so difficult at the moment that it requires characters to be buffed. For instance i can still solo heroic blue mobs in SS. w/o any armour on using just my prismatic sixta's fbss, 2 agi dolls and buffs not using any of the Now useless mitigation buffs. Basically this is less mitigation and avoidance then any guardian i have seen yet i am still able to solo heroic. It is based on the abilites of the class an area that guardians have a severe lacking. Looking at mitgation adn claiming it to be a fix for guardians is only a bareminded solution. If anything asking for mitigation to have a reasonable effect would be better. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff0000>If we keep mitigation out of the question, what would be another suggestion to make it balanced?</FONT></SPAN></P> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></DIV> <P><FONT face=Verdana>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-26-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:04 AM</SPAN><BR></FONT></P><FONT face=Verdana></FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by Prynn on <SPAN class=date_text>09-26-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:13 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:13 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>So warbird and prynn If goign by sixman's numbers are as accurate it seems brawlers have ~10% less mtigation and ~20% more avodiance. The solution seems to me that avodiance on non plates is 10% to high. by reducing avodianc by 10% This will make it extremly difficult to let that bruiser solo siphon still, not have scouts tankign in groups as well as non plates, etc. </P> <P>Furthermore when moorgard posted that utility was equal in the gaurdian thread. Guardians where mad why it wasn't because he said tankign was equal (he didn't even mention tanking) it was because many guardians felt that utility given to them was not worth as much as utility given to others. And i agree w them your utility is situational at best and marginally noticable at worst. But increasing ur mitgation will not the issues i posted above. Instead make offense stance good. give guards something worht playing a stifle, stun, anything. I listed a large pos tof ideas, but the guards that refuse anything but tanking increase would just spam it. You are 100% correct on the fact it was a flawed design. it seems to me they are trying to fix that flaw, but to many people made a character based on that flawed design and don't want it to change.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 AM</span>

[lostsandman]

<P> </P> <p>Message Edited by lostsandman on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:26 PM</span>

[lostsandman]

<P>Guardians are being told that we shoudl be good tank as anyother fighter eg  we shoudl have no advantage over any other fighter.</P> <P>Now about year ago and the recently a post by the dev said that tanking balanced againts DPS . In that list</P> <P>Tanks  ........................  DPS</P> <P>Guard .........................   Monks</P> <P>What did people assumed that meant? </P> <P>I thought that meant</P> <P>Guard better tank than all other fighters. They does not mean that other fighters can't  tank but a guardian can do it better. I know this means that some people will alwlays get guardian to tank.</P> <P>Now after nearly a year of the game we are told that </P> <P>guardian tanking == all other fighter tanking</P> <P>But this is not even the case , right now</P> <P>guardian tanking < soem other fighters.</P> <P>Plus i don't see monks and brusiers using their DPS to be better tanks in fact they are using AC/Avoidance to be better tanks.</P> <P>So i am bit confused by all these changes...... </P> <P>What annoys me the most is that our class is being changed completly after nearly a year and soemhow people seem to take that.... This is why all this talk of utility and fixing guardian ac etc etc seem very silly to me.....</P> <p>Message Edited by lostsandman on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:25 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<P>Funny I was wondering where Gungo went.  Here you come back with the same 4 items that I have posted on not once, not twice but three times.    </P> <P>Gungo, You do not understand the issues us guardians are seeing. </P> <P>In one sentence you say that it won't help to have more mitigation and in the next you say that we should get mitigation on shields. </P> <P>If you bothered to read my latest posts, you would have seen that I am purposing mitigation on shields and asking what is up with mitigation.   How exactly is mitigation broken and what might fix it.</P> <P>If you have anything constructive to post, please do.</P> <P> </P>

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo.</P> <P>Its a nift idea.  But I dont think it will be enough.</P> <P> </P> <P>As one plays has already said.  If they want the MT role fine, your going to have to drop their DPS 15% as well.</P> <P>In the long run there taking things away from another class isnt going to fix the problems with guardians.  </P> <P>If we are as Moorguard and others here have so many times said that were suppose to be the premo DEFENSIVE tank then there are a few keys we need to do this job.</P> <P>We must be able to:</P> <P>Block</P> <P>Absorb</P> <P>And possibly reflect damage.</P> <P>Increase our block rate when using a tower shield.</P> <P>Give us a buff short duration short recast that allows us to soak up more damage.</P> <P>I know im gonna get flames for this one.  Give us a 24 second taunt effect that allows us to reflect some AOE damage epic or not, but only when the mob is focused on the guardian.  Yes thats right.  It would only work if we have the hate.  Every skill has a positive side and a negative side. More so with guardians these days it seems.  This would make it desireable to have guardians MT again.  NO that does not mean that we are the only MT's,  If a group without a guardian wants to take on the same mob then they can joust it.</P> <P>  </P>

[Gungo]

<P>I posted the results of your discussion raahl instead of trying to debate my arguments which you faile dto do you ran away. Still you havent came up w a compeling argument. here is the argument you proposed. with my debate on it.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33></FONT></P> <P>Raahls comments:</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Gungo paraphrasing raahl comments</FONT></P> <P>1)  This may be true.  Simply adding mitigation will not solve these issue.  Perhaps making Mitigation affect these types of attack might be a way to help fix this.  Perhaps raising resistances will help this also.  But I'm fairly certain that adding utility would not solve this either.  I have not seen a suggestion yet that would.  Though I will not back off my statements that guardians and plate classes in general need more mitigation.  Mitigation alone may not solve the problems totally but it's the first place to start. <FONT color=#ffff33>You are right gungo addign mitigation wont solve this problem how about some [Removed for Content] idea about ignoring spell resists and applying physical mitgation to spells... changing the entire dynamic of the game is much easier then just reducing avodiance on brawlers.</FONT></P> <DIV> <DIV> <P>2) First off I believe basing your arguments against what hard core players do is a mistake.  The reason the 80% cap is there is to limit the power players.  This helps sony make sure that most encounters are not trivialized by people maximizing their equipment.  So the solution may be to reduce the mitigation on fabled armor.  Raising the resistance on fabled would probably be a decent tradeoff.  <FONT color=#ffff33>Gungo you must be mistaken the majoirty of the player base at 50 doesnt own any adept 3 spells, who  would spend or harvest to at least adept 3 the important spells like buffs and heals. At any rate harvests hasn't gone up because i don't harvest instead i follow you around on the boards trying to make a point that makes no sense. </FONT></P> <P>3) Neither will upping Utility.  I do not care about what scouts do.  I only care that guardians are broken.  Raising and fixing mitigation will help guardians and in most cases help all tank classes. <FONT color=#ffff00>I don't care about utility hence no other guard needs utility, i don't care if a lvl 35 gaurd can't solo and is unwanted in groups. I  am already 50+. Basically their needs are not important. raising mitigation will help guards compare numbers to eavh other and feel happy about our ego's while we sit at the dock in SS looking for group because all the mobs hit for spell damage now and the brawlers and crusaders are tankign them better. I also will ignore the fact that lowering avoidance on all but Heavy armour like you stated will make me a better tank then scouts.</FONT></P> <P>4) This may be true but it will not fix the guardians issues.   It would probably break brawlers.  If coupled with something that made thier mitigation work (at least partially) against all damage types, this might soften the blow.  <FONT color=#ffff33>You are right again gungo, but being equal in tanking wont fix gaurdians issues of being the only tank people would want in groups and gimping the other fighter classes.  removing 10% avoidance will probably break brawlers because now they wont be able to solo heroic double up's anymore and instead would have to solo regualr mobs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________</FONT></P> <P>You see i was just being funny with raahl as he continued to ignore other people's opinions and instea dof him comprehending the argument he says i was childish and ran away. Never once stating how i am wrong. </P> <P>warbird  you are correct it may not be enuff but its a start and does solve a few issues such as scouts comparable to gaurds. What it does do is narrow the gap alot more between the 2 classes. What they should do after that should be give guardians something extra maybe its adding mtigation to shields (btw raahl just because i think guards should get some sort of differentins on shields doesn't have to mean i think mitigation will fix guardians. Its a hard concept for you to understand i know) But more likely guards should recieve some form of added abilites be it stifles, stuns, a 15 sec invulnerability that lets you autoatk taunts. But really guards need something to offer raids/groups that doesnt rely on them being the MT all the time. It doesnt work for healers it shouldn't be the same case for guards.</P></DIV></DIV>

[Urglu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>100% FALSE.  My 52 Guardian, in a group setting, with a mix of Fabled and Legendary has never seen 80% mitigation, and only sees mid 70% with an emergency buff on. All important buffs are Adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yet another example of a non-Guardian posting things he has no clue about. </DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Fellow Guardians I know how upset we all are from these horrible changes done to our class.  But please at least Gunga a BRUISER none the less realizes that there are severe disparages thrue the different tank classes.  He at least is making it known to the Devs that its not just Guards that are unhappy but that Other classes are seeing it.  So that said take his suggestions to heart, and with some discussion and no bickering hopefully something will change before all my plate classes in the guild leave the game.  I have lost 4 Guards and 2 Pallies since revamp, and I am hoping they will fix us before I cant take it anymore and leave as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>

[Krooner]

<A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=19178" target=_blank><SPAN>TanRaistlyn</SPAN></A> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Id go on a recruiting spree if I was you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only Monks and Bruisers need apply.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Raahl wrote: <P>Our mitigation is slightly above that of non-plate fighters but our avoidance is a lot less.  We get hit a lot more often for slightly less than a non-plate fighters.    It's tougher for healers to keep us alive and they use more power.  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1)  This is intended.  You are supposed to mitigate more and avoid less.</P> <P>2)  You are supposed to get hit a lot more often than us, for less.  We get hit less often, for way more.</P> <P>3)  I think you're mistaken.  Healing spike damage is tougher than healing a steady incoming amount of predictable damage.<BR></P>

[sylvo]

Just wanted to stick my name down on the being fabled/legendary mix and only getting into mid 70% mit with all emergencies on (adept3's). I agree yes gungo that avoidance should probably be lowered to help lower the gap between brawler/warrior tanking but its never nice to ask for a nerf. Also I think a lot of the perceived problem is that mitigation just doesn't seem to work properly. Either its the non-trauma based attacks or its not scaling very well vs slightly higher con mobs (in comparison with avoidance) or there are little noticeable differences from higher values. Also just wanted to re-iterate the idea of giving different types of trauma mitigation specialisation between the different sub classes. Give brawlers I dunno a 3 minute +500 vs piercing buff (self only), give plate tanks a 3 minute +400 vs crushing + slashing mitigation. Encounters should be quite doable without these buffs but they would make a noticeable difference when applied to allow a preference to one tank vs another in a raid situation. Just my quick thoughts :p <div></div>

[Krooner]

<P>Gaige.</P> <P>wrote </P> <P>1)  This is intended.  You are supposed to mitigate more and avoid less.  <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0033>LESS than 5% isnt really More  20% would be more.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>2)  You are supposed to get hit a lot more often than us, for less.  We get hit less often, for way more.  </P> <P>3)  I think you're mistaken.  Healing spike damage is tougher than healing a steady incoming amount of predictable damage.<BR></P> <P>Well look who decided to drop in.</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote:<BR> <P>Gaige.</P> <P>wrote</P> <P>1)  This is intended.  You are supposed to mitigate more and avoid less.  <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0033>LESS than 5% isnt really More  20% would be more.</FONT></STRONG></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>As I've stated time and again I normally tank xp groups buffed from 2000 to 2200 mitigation.  (Around 40ish %).  Guardians in my guild are anywhere from 3200 to 3700.</P> <P>That's more than 5% more <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Raahl wrote: <P>Our mitigation is slightly above that of non-plate fighters but our avoidance is a lot less.  We get hit a lot more often for slightly less than a non-plate fighters.    It's tougher for healers to keep us alive and they use more power.  </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1)  This is intended.  You are supposed to mitigate more and avoid less.</P> <P>2)  You are supposed to get hit a lot more often than us, for less.  We get hit less often, for way more.</P> <P>3)  I think you're mistaken.  Healing spike damage is tougher than healing a steady incoming amount of predictable damage.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1)  I never said that it was any different or that it should be.  I've only stated that the plate tanks mitigation is too low.</P> <P>2)  I'd argue that you get hit way more, going off the mitigation numbers you currently should be hit for slightly more.</P> <P>3)  Are you sure Gaige?   If fighter X takes more damage over a given time than fighter Y, then the healer has used more power for fighter X.   The damage difference per hit between an avoidance fighter and a mitigation figher is not that big. <BR></P>

[Krooner]

<P>Gaige.</P> <P> </P> <P>yeah well the game mechanics dont bear that out.</P> <P>The difference between the two when yor looking at the damage as it comes through is less than 5%.  No Im not going to parce anything for you.  Do the work yourself.  I have sat and wached the numbes myself.  Has a 50 Brusers in full legendary tank for me this weekend when I was on my dirge.  She was taking less damage per hit then my guardian in defensive stance. Not just once, but over and over.   Nice try... </P> <P> </P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Gaige seriously, I am decked in almost complete fabled gear, My miti is around 2800 with defensive stance on and no 30 second buffs(also grouped with a templar), so not sure what your guild's guards are wearing but it must be a hell of a lot better then T5 fabled to get 400 or so more mitigation then I.  Yesterday for fun we went to Angler a level 53 Monk tanked in my Group, im only level 52 right now(cuz I can barely stand to play anymore), and I compared our mitigation.  Raid buffed with both classes in defensive stances the monks mitigation was less then 300 less then mine, and his avoidance was over 20percent more...SOOooooo...Monks with plate class mitigation and 20-30percent more mitigation really isnt what they were looking for with this combat revamp, AT LEAST I HOPE...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Gungo, Why do you continually derail topics?    You are not offering any constructive informations by continuing to drag up your posts over and over again.  Try addressing what the post is about instead of bringing up other threads.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <P>3)  Are you sure Gaige?   If fighter X takes more damage over a given time than fighter Y, then the healer has used more power for fighter X.   The damage difference per hit between an avoidance fighter and a mitigation figher is not that big. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm positive.  I know this because I've been tanking since DoF launched and my healers have told me as much.  Sure its possible to grind xp (including named) with one healer but it does take a better effort on the healers part.  They have to understand how I take damage and prepare, plan and react accordingly.</P> <P>A lot of healers don't like doing it, but since I'm not a big fan of two healer groups, I'm lucky I have some guildmates up to the challenge.</P> <P>*IF* your mitigation is broken, than ours surely is too, and our avoidance does not make up for it as much as people like to assume.  The simple fact is that I could be trioing desert raptors that are blue to me and still be getting hit for avg 600 and spikes of 1100 to 1300.  With around 4400ish HP in a trio 1300 is a lot.</P> <P>I'd also like to see parses that prove over the same length of time against the same mob that a plate tank receives more incoming damage than a monk, because I 100% do not believe that to be true.<BR></P>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>urglunt wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100% FALSE.  My 52 Guardian, in a group setting, with a mix of Fabled and Legendary has never seen 80% mitigation, and only sees mid 70% with an emergency buff on. All important buffs are Adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yet another example of a non-Guardian posting things he has no clue about. </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are 100% wrong go ask a fury to cast porcupine on you, and get a templar, conjuror presto u are at 100% mtigation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo </P> <P>Porcipine only lasts 30 seconds.... when it wares off Bam MT is dead.</P> <P>And Even with my fableds, defensive stance and different healers... SK with Gift of Armor and Calculated evasion I have never got close to 80% Mit.</P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

Gaige in a comparison between a 42 monk and a 41 guardian, the guardian was 5% higher than the monk without his 30 second mitigation buff.  With the buff the guardian was 11% higher.   This should be closer to 20% when buffed.

[TunaBoo]

porc lasts 30 seconds. Who cares if we have 100% mita for 10 seconds per 30 minutes when 24 ppl all put their emergency buff. What matters is our base mita, and our average mita over a fight. Having a spike of more mita doesn't really matter.. as the mob keeps on hitting. <div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>urglunt wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>100% FALSE.  My 52 Guardian, in a group setting, with a mix of Fabled and Legendary has never seen 80% mitigation, and only sees mid 70% with an emergency buff on. All important buffs are Adept 3.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yet another example of a non-Guardian posting things he has no clue about. </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are 100% wrong go ask a fury to cast porcupine on you, and get a templar, conjuror presto u are at 100% mtigation. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Uhh Gungo, mitigation is capped at 80%.  :smileywink:

[Gungo]

<P>Warbird then i am sorry you are either missing buffs, or soemthing else is wrong because in a group w those 2 healers and either a conjuror or crusader our guild guardian is hittign 80% mtigation w/o a problem. And when i tanked acrimond the other day i was also at 80% mtigation. so my point that since a brawler cna reach the same cap as a guardian in mitgation as well as having higher avodiance is still true and valid. Adding mitgation will not fix that issue.  </P> <P>Edit yeah that was a typo raahl be happy you caught me messing up once now go troll elsewhere. You see what i mean abotu raahl i offer constructive arguments and he tells me to go away. He still hasn't offered anything to contradict what i said. I am not against fixing guard inadequacy, but i am saying mtigation increased willl not fix you. If someone can possibly give a reason how mitigation will fix those four major issues i brought up it will be appreciated. Now you must also remeber you can't increase mitigation so much that it renders crusaders useless either. </P> <P>I am not derailing a thread the thread was stating mitigation is a solution for guards, which i am debating it is not. If anyone can show where mitigation would fix these issues i am all ears. <P>mitigation wont solve the current guards issues such as:</P> <DIV> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)</P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled or t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. </P></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:07 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR>Gaige in a comparison between a 42 monk and a 41 guardian, the guardian was 5% higher than the monk without his 30 second mitigation buff.  With the buff the guardian was 11% higher.   This should be closer to 20% when buffed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>He's a level higher.  What was the gear like?  Etc etc.</P> <P>Dude if you want I can compare myself to the 3 fully fabled guardians in my guild and skew the numbers in favor of the guardians.</P> <P>Would you prefer that?<BR></P>

[Raahl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR>Gaige in a comparison between a 42 monk and a 41 guardian, the guardian was 5% higher than the monk without his 30 second mitigation buff.  With the buff the guardian was 11% higher.   This should be closer to 20% when buffed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>He's a level higher.  What was the gear like?  Etc etc.</P> <P>Dude if you want I can compare myself to the 3 fully fabled guardians in my guild and skew the numbers in favor of the guardians.</P> <P>Would you prefer that?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gaige, settle down please.  We can only go off what people have posted.  Please feel free to post screenshots of you and let us know what buffs are up and what equipment you have on.  Perhaps we can find a guardian near your level and equipment to post the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk was is in mostly legendary and the guardian in mostly crafted.  Yes the equipment skews the results.   But how much difference is there between legendary and crafted?  I thought there was a post somewhere comparing the armor types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One level does not mean that much.  Yes it would be nice to have been equal, but I can only work with what was posted.  In fact the guardian's values would have been less seeing that mitigation % = Mitigation Value / Level.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk was is in mostly legendary and the guardian in mostly crafted.  Yes the equipment skews the results.   But how much difference is there between legendary and crafted?  I thought there was a post somewhere comparing the armor types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One level does not mean that much.  Yes it would be nice to have been equal, but I can only work with what was posted. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Legendary offers significantly more mitigation than crafted, for one.  Which would explain why the mitigation gap was so small.</P> <P>I'm settled down, but all I'm saying is not to post numbers that skew results in favor of one class over the other, because I can always compare myself to a lvl 52 guild guardian with 100% fully fabled and he will make my numbers look silly, albeit he's 2 almost 3 lvls lower.<BR></P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monk was is in mostly legendary and the guardian in mostly crafted.  Yes the equipment skews the results.   But how much difference is there between legendary and crafted?  I thought there was a post somewhere comparing the armor types.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One level does not mean that much.  Yes it would be nice to have been equal, but I can only work with what was posted. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Legendary offers significantly more mitigation than crafted, for one.  Which would explain why the mitigation gap was so small.</P> <P>I'm settled down, but all I'm saying is not to post numbers that skew results in favor of one class over the other, because I can always compare myself to a lvl 52 guild guardian with 100% fully fabled and he will make my numbers look silly, albeit he's 2 almost 3 lvls lower.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gaige, get a level 43 monk to post his stats in crafted armor and I can get mine posted also.   Two screenshots would be best.  One with all the normal buffs up and one with the temporary buffs up.  Both should be in defensive stance.</P> <P>That our you could get me a set of legendary.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<P><BR>To try and get this thread back on topic.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> <HR> Part 1:</DIV> <DIV>Add mitigation based on shield type and tier.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Tower Shield Mitigation = Tier x 75</DIV> <DIV>Kite Sheild Mitigation = Tier x 55</DIV> <DIV>Round Shield Mitigation = Tier x 40</DIV> <DIV>Buckler Shield Mitigation = Tier x 20</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This would be for all shields in a given tier.   Fabled, legendary and crafted would supply the same value.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Part 2:</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Make Mitigation mean more.</DIV> <P>Right now it seems that mitigation is undervalued when it comes to a tanks defense.   Whether it be because it only mitigates physical damage or some other unforseen problem.</P> <P>Perhaps raising the resistances on plate armor will help, I'm not completely sure that's what will help.</P> <P>Perhaps allowing a percentage of mitigation on non-physical damage.  Though will this unbalance things?</P> <DIV>Perhaps the solution would be to reduce the damage from non-physical attacks. </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV>Any ideas?</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So giving shields mitigation (part 1) seems to be generally accepted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What about Mitigation not working correctly?  What are you seeing?  Where are there problems?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is it mostly non-physical damage that has issues?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could it just be the resistance values are too low and mitigation is working? </DIV>

[Urglu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>Warbird then i am sorry you are either missing buffs, or soemthing else is wrong because in a group w those 2 healers and either a conjuror or crusader our guild guardian is hittign 80% mtigation w/o a problem. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Would this be with Porc on for 30 seconds? That's what you cited earlier.  If so you are clearly misrepresenting the truth.</P> <P>Here's your sign. <BR></P>

[Gungo]

<P>I think i found out half your problem raahl. If you are trying to tank in regular handcrafter you are going to be taking alot more damage then legendary and fabled. Sadly people asked fr upgrades to have significant meaning. And they do now a legendary fighter tanks way better then a handcrafted fighter, a fabled fighter tansk way better then a legendary one. Add to the fact that rare leather is pitifully cheap and ebon was so much more expensive. You have brawlers in pretty much standard legendary gear. Of course all brawlers out tank you. This issue should be getting fixed as soon as the market starts to settle down. Like i said before rare harvests are simply a joke now. The new norm in another month will start to be legendary t6 crafted armour and adept 3 spells.</P> <P>furthermore avodiance seems to mostly follow a characters lvl (agi, buffs, innate bonus that never changes) whereas mitigation is aminly given from items. So now you have lvl 50+ gaurds wearing gear that caps out at lvl 40 (t5 crafted) comparing themselves to brawlers whose main form of defense follows thier lvl. </P> <P>The best comparison between 2 classes would be two lvl 40s in handcrafter t5 gear or two lvl 50's in t6 crafted gear.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 AM</span>

[Gungo]

I wouldn't say i misinterpreting the truth in fact if you agree that anyone can get 80% mitgation further increasing mitigation would only lessen the effect of your 30 sec mitgation buffs, since you would just hit the 80% cap anyway. The fact is anyone can hit the caps increasing mitigation would do nothign w/o increasing the cap. Which they will not do because they don't want to trivilize encounters.

[Krooner]

<P>No Im not missing a buff.</P> <P>I have all ebon except for:</P> <P>Helm of Reverberation Fabled</P> <P>Guassets of Shattering Fabled</P> <P>Flame tested Mail Fabled</P> <P>I was in Fortified stance with my two other defensive buffs up.  Even when I pop the 30 second buff I only get close to 74%</P> <P>If I pop a legendary potion I get 76%</P> <P>But even then when I look at the numbers there isnt much difference in the damage Im taking when I was only around 45%</P> <P>The mechanics just seem all messed up.  And before you ask Yes Im approching this from a very analytical standpoint.</P> <P>I crunch numbers every day as part of my job.</P> <P>The game mechanics of Mitigation vs Avoidance have gone nuts.  Thats not just my opinion.  Look at all the thousands of posts on the forums saying basically the same thing.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Either way warbird if u say you have all that and the fury templar crusader etc buff something is different because our guild guard can hit 80%.</DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>The best comparison between 2 classes would be two lvl 40s in handcrafter t5 gear or two lvl 50's in t6 crafted gear.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Yup.  Problem is finding 2 that will post.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote:<BR> <P>No Im not missing a buff.</P> <P>I have all ebon except for:</P> <P>Helm of Reverberation Fabled</P> <P>Guassets of Shattering Fabled</P> <P>Flame tested Mail Fabled</P> <P>I was in Fortified stance with my two other defensive buffs up.  Even when I pop the 30 second buff I only get close to 74%</P> <P>If I pop a legendary potion I get 76%</P> <P>But even then when I look at the numbers there isnt much difference in the damage Im taking when I was only around 45%</P> <P>The mechanics just seem all messed up.  And before you ask Yes Im approching this from a very analytical standpoint.</P> <P>I crunch numbers every day as part of my job.</P> <P>The game mechanics of Mitigation vs Avoidance have gone nuts.  Thats not just my opinion.  Look at all the thousands of posts on the forums saying basically the same thing.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'd be interested in seeing your numbers.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Krooner]

<DIV>Well when I get home tonight Im hoping the guild will be in a mood for raiding.</DIV> <DIV>Will try removing all my gear and re-equipping it.  Heard that clears things up sometimes.</DIV> <DIV>We normally have a fury and a Inquisitor in the MT group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also as a little side item.  I was examining my Icebound plate gloves last night.  Got them in the Icy Dig.  When I got them they were one of those items that had stats up to lvl 53.  After the launch and LU13 the mit on them was 323.  Last night I looked at them and they are 281 one point below ebon now.   All of the resists changed too.  Its getting to where you have to take a screen shot of all your stuff and stare and compare when you log on to see whats changed. :smileymad:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>