Derailed Threads

[Urglu]

<DIV>Lately I have seen a lot of good threads about our class and the Combat Changes get derailed and/or turn into useless arguments.  Much of this seems to stem from non-Guardians posting uninformed comments and people responding to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the Guardians on here.  Just ignore them, let's keep our threads productive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the people ruining our threads. Go level a Guardian or go to your own forums.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forums rules state: "In general, you may post any material, written in a courteous and mature manner, <STRONG>providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting</STRONG>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will be reporting any and all posts I see from now on that are not germane to this forum.  I hope my fellow Guards will do the same. </DIV>

[Dedi]

Lately?  Gage has been doing this since the agil nerf what 8 months ago?  I agree with what youre saying but in a few seconds he'll have responded saying "This isn't a private board blah blah blah, one time a guardian derailed a monk thread blah blah" <div></div>

[Nazo]

<P>Well done....</P> <P>The same thing happened in Beta forums as well. For some reason people still do respond to such posts diluting the main arguments.</P>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote:<BR> <DIV>Lately I have seen a lot of good threads about our class and the Combat Changes get derailed and/or turn into useless arguments.  Much of this seems to stem from non-Guardians posting uninformed comments and people responding to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the Guardians on here.  Just ignore them, let's keep our threads productive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the people ruining our threads. Go level a Guardian or go to your own forums.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forums rules state: "In general, you may post any material, written in a courteous and mature manner, <STRONG>providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting</STRONG>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will be reporting any and all posts I see from now on that are not germane to this forum.  I hope my fellow Guards will do the same. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Uh, I did just as you said.  I leveled a guardian to 50, and I agree with gaige on his points.  Playing both the monk and the guard prepatch the guard was vastly superior in every way.  He was a god compared to monks and any other fighter class, pure and simple.  What we are going through is what you would call withdrawls from god like status.  We fell to earth, blam here we are.  Any questions?  Cause I sure as hell am gonna post here, with my opinions.  This is such a freakin' whine and cheese fest.  I would be ashamed to be this class, if I wasn't having such a good time playing my guardian....OMG without FD,  OMG without an invis...OMG without a self heal.  </P> <P>As a Guardian, let me officially welcome Gaige to the guardian forums /bow /golf clap etc. etc.</P> <P>Now that he has been welcomed, no more of this "only guardians can post here crap."</P> <P>Now, if you wanna talk about adding some utility, sure thats reasonable.  </P> <P>P.S. sighting the statement courteous and mature, and saying to ignore people and ignore people who don't play guardians = really funny IMO.  Gaige hasn't gotten snippy with anyone that didn't diserve it as far as I'm concerned.  To the reasonable guardians can we take Gaige off the cross now? Huh?</P> <P><BR> </P>

[Edyil]

<P>I always enjoy reading your posts Skarl and thats another doozey.</P> <P> </P> <P>I think the community in general supports a mitigation increase or have the effects of current mitigation enhanced for plate classes (only).  That is pretty much a universal agreement.  The problems occur when some Guards site other class (faked-up) feats as their basis for change, when some Guards site the old system (it's dead and gone, Guards.  Adjust.) as justification for change and when some Guards attempt to fix their class in an inappropriate manner (no avoidance for you).</P> <P>That's when people (like me) like to post.  I'm all for fixing Guard mitigation.  That has nothing to do with other classes abilities, the old CA system or avoidance.  You folks actually want our support.  Trying to shut us out will not get you any positive changes.  Gaining our support in your efforts at fixes will help drive your changes.</P>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR> <P>I always enjoy reading your posts Skarl and thats another doozey.</P> <P> </P> <P>I think the community in general supports a mitigation increase or have the effects of current mitigation enhanced for plate classes (only).  That is pretty much a universal agreement.  The problems occur when some Guards site other class (faked-up) feats as their basis for change, when some Guards site the old system (it's dead and gone, Guards.  Adjust.) as justification for change and when some Guards attempt to fix their class in an inappropriate manner (no avoidance for you).</P> <P>That's when people (like me) like to post.  I'm all for fixing Guard mitigation.  That has nothing to do with other classes abilities, the old CA system or avoidance.  You folks actually want our support.  Trying to shut us out will not get you any positive changes.  Gaining our support in your efforts at fixes will help drive your changes.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can certainly understand why people feel that we don't have a large edge on mitigation.  It is slight.  But are we as guardians comfortable with the posssibility that we should gain more of an edge on mitigation as the brawler classes gain the edge on avoidance.  As I see it, the more we gain the edge on mitigation, the more they are gonna up the brawler's avoidance, which I don't necessarily see as a bad thing per say.  All I am saying is, as guardians demand more edge in mitigation, they will surely give more avoidance to the same power.  Will we be happy with our mitigation up 10% as the brawler gains his avoidance the same 10% and becomes an even better main tank possibly?  It will seem as kind of a wash to me and I figured our mitigation is gonna take off as new equip drops after the raid mobs come off their crystal meth habit and become less god like.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I imagine there will be tweaks going on for the next 8 months anyways, as its a whole new game now.</DIV>

[Urglu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote:<BR> <DIV>Lately I have seen a lot of good threads about our class and the Combat Changes get derailed and/or turn into useless arguments.  Much of this seems to stem from non-Guardians posting uninformed comments and people responding to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the Guardians on here.  Just ignore them, let's keep our threads productive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the people ruining our threads. Go level a Guardian or go to your own forums.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forums rules state: "In general, you may post any material, written in a courteous and mature manner, <STRONG>providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting</STRONG>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will be reporting any and all posts I see from now on that are not germane to this forum.  I hope my fellow Guards will do the same. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Uh, I did just as you said.  I leveled a guardian to 50, and I agree with gaige on his points.  Playing both the monk and the guard prepatch the guard was vastly superior in every way.  He was a god compared to monks and any other fighter class, pure and simple.  What we are going through is what you would call withdrawls from god like status.  We fell to earth, blam here we are.  Any questions?  Cause I sure as hell am gonna post here, with my opinions.  This is such a freakin' whine and cheese fest.  I would be ashamed to be this class, if I wasn't having such a good time playing my guardian....OMG without FD,  OMG without an invis...OMG without a self heal.  </P> <P>As a Guardian, let me officially welcome Gaige to the guardian forums /bow /golf clap etc. etc.</P> <P>Now that he has been welcomed, no more of this "only guardians can post here crap."</P> <P>Now, if you wanna talk about adding some utility, sure thats reasonable.  </P> <P>P.S. sighting the statement courteous and mature, and saying to ignore people and ignore people who don't play guardians = really funny IMO.  Gaige hasn't gotten snippy with anyone that didn't diserve it as far as I'm concerned.  To the reasonable guardians can we take Gaige off the cross now? Huh?</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No individual was mentioned in my post because it addressed the actions of many.  Sarcastic replies which attempt to incite the very arguments that many of us would like to see eliminated in this forum will only get you one reponse. /Reported<BR>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote:<BR> <DIV>Lately I have seen a lot of good threads about our class and the Combat Changes get derailed and/or turn into useless arguments.  Much of this seems to stem from non-Guardians posting uninformed comments and people responding to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the Guardians on here.  Just ignore them, let's keep our threads productive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the people ruining our threads. Go level a Guardian or go to your own forums.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forums rules state: "In general, you may post any material, written in a courteous and mature manner, <STRONG>providing that it is on-topic for the forum to which you are posting</STRONG>."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will be reporting any and all posts I see from now on that are not germane to this forum.  I hope my fellow Guards will do the same. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Uh, I did just as you said.  I leveled a guardian to 50, and I agree with gaige on his points.  Playing both the monk and the guard prepatch the guard was vastly superior in every way.  He was a god compared to monks and any other fighter class, pure and simple.  What we are going through is what you would call withdrawls from god like status.  We fell to earth, blam here we are.  Any questions?  Cause I sure as hell am gonna post here, with my opinions.  This is such a freakin' whine and cheese fest.  I would be ashamed to be this class, if I wasn't having such a good time playing my guardian....OMG without FD,  OMG without an invis...OMG without a self heal.  </P> <P>As a Guardian, let me officially welcome Gaige to the guardian forums /bow /golf clap etc. etc.</P> <P>Now that he has been welcomed, no more of this "only guardians can post here crap."</P> <P>Now, if you wanna talk about adding some utility, sure thats reasonable.  </P> <P>P.S. sighting the statement courteous and mature, and saying to ignore people and ignore people who don't play guardians = really funny IMO.  Gaige hasn't gotten snippy with anyone that didn't diserve it as far as I'm concerned.  To the reasonable guardians can we take Gaige off the cross now? Huh?</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No individual was mentioned in my post because it addressed the actions of many.  Sarcastic replies which attempt to incite the very arguments that many of us would like to see eliminated in this forum will only get you one reponse. /Reported<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I most certanly agree about the sarcastic part. </P> <P>I just can not resist.  When people imply about non guardians post in these forums, who's name comes to mind?  Whom would this be directed at?  Let's see, Non guardian, posts a lot...hmm, lets see who that could be, named as the evil empire that dethrowned guardians...hmm......can't think of his name..on the tip of my tounge.</P> <P>/report this sarcastic reply I guess. </P> <P>dang, I just promised not to be sarcastic.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by SkarlSpeedbump on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:16 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<DIV>Urglunt what did you expect them to do.  Of course they are going to come here and flame this thread.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree, ignoring them is the best option.  They continually bait their comments to draw us into an arguement.   The majority of them do not play a guardian and their opinions are generally out of touch with what our problems are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<P>Probaly mitigation will be a slight advantage for guards that will increase through loot drops.  If we ask for more mitigation advantage, they will probably, and correctly give more avoidance advantage to the brawler types.  They want us to depend on loot to increase these things and they aint dropped yet cause raid mobs are borked.</P> <P>There, on topic and to the point....but not a bit artistic or fun to write.</P> <P>Bleh, technical writing is no fun.</P>

[Edyil]

<P>I don't see any flaming on here other than the OP.  I agree some folks like to start fires.  But applies to many of the Guard started threads in this forum. </P> <P> </P> <P>I still contend that the effects of mitigation or mitigation for plate only should be upped by 10% or so.  Leave avoidance as it is.  If we (brawler types) can figure out a way to up our AGI another 100 or so then so be it.</P>

[Whitemane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>No individual was mentioned in my post because it addressed the actions of many.  Sarcastic replies which attempt to incite the very arguments that many of us would like to see eliminated in this forum will only get you one reponse. /Reported<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Someone needs to take their blankey and go have a nappy perhaps. </P> <P>On a more serious note.</P> <P> I am not sure what you Gaurdians are complaining about? </P> <P>Yes you lost some mitigation guess what? Everyone did. As a templar I lost my Parry & group cures ( you will all rue that day that happened =P) , Warlocks lost their roots for the most part etc..</P> <P>You lost some HP...Um so damage scales much differently now ( at least on non - old world raid mobs it does). Really Taken as a whole everything seems to actually be working rather well. Most of the arguements here seem to be taken with no regard at all for the context the changes have been made in. Its a whole new world now folks. Wishing for things to return to the way they were is pointless and not going to happen. Change the things you can like ohhh say : Tower Shields. I happen to totally agree these should be noticible better than Kite.</P> <P>I dont think your mitigation is too low. How do I know this? Well if every Gaurdian I grouped with exploded when hit by greens while wearing full fabled / Legendary gear. Id think hmmm something is up. This doesnt happen. The one thing I have noted is that its pretty much mandatory to use your defensive CA's against named etc. You will get owned otherwise. I dont think bruisers mit or avoidance is out of wack I think that bruisers / Monks DPS is out. They do just sick sick DPS and tank just ok from the parses Ive seen so far. and Ive solo healed 50 Gaurdians fighting the 56-59 sandfuries wear Ebon / maybe 1 -2 fabled's with no problems. He never lost agro or died. And over the last week that seems par for the course in grouping with multiple Gaurdians</P> <P> Once people start to gear up I think this complaint will Fade. Remember everything took a hit mitigation wise ( no more mit on jewlery lessened on the individual pieces). Although Im disapointed generally with the stats on t6 Armour its mitigation at least is MUCH higher than t5. </P> <P>Saying that as a healer Im not qualified to tell you wether on not you can do your job as a tank is well, assine, Who better really ( other than you). I stare at your guys Health bar 90% of my time in the game. If Gaurdians could not tank or sucked as bad  you folks are suggesting I would:</P> <P> i) Have a noticed that hey its nearly impossible to keep these guys up compared to a bruiser / SK // Pally. ( it isnt as a templar I have a slightly harder time with the avoidance tanks though less so now after the revamp.)</P> <P> ii) I would die alot more as with the agro changes I know in a big hurry who didnt upgrade their gear / Taunts or if there was an issue.</P> <P>If you want to report me go ahead, knock yourself out.  I think your time would be better spend making a list of real issues ( Like the Tower shield issue, Mitigation possibly ), rather than "Waaaa I got nerfed" and being cranky with anyone who offers a dissenting view.</P> <P> </P> <P>-- Gemma 52 Templar Legion Najena</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Whitemane on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:50 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>You guys have to realize that if you post and mention the brawler classes or the crusader classes, we are going to come post.  As for your bolded highlight -- thank you much but I'm aware of the forum rules.  If I wasn't I doubt I'd have 6k+ posts without getting banned, since most people seem to think I break them all the time.</P> <P>I respond on topic /shrug.</P> <P>Just because I don't agree with the topic doesn't mean I'm derailing.</P> <P>The fact is that sometimes its easy when you are passionate about something to only see it from one side.  </P> <P>Anyway, I don't post in a thread unless I think its called for.  Although, I'm pretty sure with titles like "guardian vs. monk" there has to be some reasonable expectation that I and others will show up.</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>Anyway, I don't post in a thread unless I think its called for.  Although, I'm pretty sure with titles like "guardian vs. monk" there has to be some reasonable expectation that I and others will show up.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Vs. theads titled "DoF Combat Changes Feedback (Guardians Only)"?

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Gaige outa my own curiosity since you just posted to this, How do you feel about the call for mitigation to mean more then it does now, or that Guards feel that their mitigation isnt properly adjusted.  Also I wanted to know your thoughts on this ongoing Tower / Kite sheild debate.  </P> <P>Just looking for another veiw is all I know how I feel and Im not looking for an argument.</P> <P>Covenant</P> <P>Guardian(faydark)</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>Gaige outa my own curiosity since you just posted to this, How do you feel about the call for mitigation to mean more then it does now, or that Guards feel that their mitigation isnt properly adjusted.  Also I wanted to know your thoughts on this ongoing Tower / Kite sheild debate. </P> <P>Just looking for another veiw is all I know how I feel and Im not looking for an argument.</P> <P>Covenant</P> <P>Guardian(faydark)</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think they could bump your mitigation a bit (albeit small) probably.  They'd have to test it, but its not horribly low atm.  Mine is normally around 2000-2100 (40%) buffed when I'm tanking grind groups and my guild guardians are usually 3200-3700ish.  Although I don't group with Noah so I haven't seen his, this was our 2nd/3rd guards (still fully fabled though).</P> <P>The tower shield vs kite shield debate I side with you guys.  I think there needs to be a difference between kite and tower, even if its only 5%.  If not, why have them?</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR><BR>Vs. theads titled "DoF Combat Changes Feedback (Guardians Only)"? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know you're aware of this but I posted two times in that thread:</P> <P>First time, as a joke.</P> <P>Second time as a general statement about overall stats.</P> <P>Neither of which were inflammatory or derailed the thread.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Then I see nothing that I can argue with you about, I think the guards should get another 200-300 base mitigation at least, or adjust the value of mitigation to mean more...I also think that the tower should DEFF. get a small value over useing a kite sheild...I mean seriously prelaunch this game intended to have the Guardians be the MT raid choice, no one can seriously argue that point...And Im all for all tanks to be able to do the job but Im old school thinking in that Monks/Bruisers should do more damage then us, Pallies/SK's should have more utility then we do, and Zerkers should be outdamaging us only slightly while we Take damage better Slightly.  I think that all classes should be able to get the job done, but if a Guardian was available he should be the one in the MT raid tanking role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Gaige Id like to pick ur brain one day when your online, if you ever have the time, and feel like a chat send me a tell, Faydark server Covenant is my toon.  Seems outa all these people you have the most experience with directly comparing the Guard to the other classes, and Im wondering if you can shed some light on some of the new things I am finding that I do not like about my class now.</P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Gaige]

Gonna grind most the day, after my shower.  I'll look you up.

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Ill be on webchat most the day from work, and Ill be ingame at 9:30eastern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>