Losing avoidance when leveling?

[TrallosFV]

Leveled up from 34 to 35 a short while ago and my avoidance dropped from 45.6% to 41.8% with the same equipment. As far as I can tell nohting else has changed, Mitigation is the same, HP and power got a small increase if any, attack might have moved up 1 or 2 points from use. What in the world would cause something like this?

[Gaige]

I was under the impression that you leveled and your armor remained the same, so its not as effective against mobs your level as it was the previous one.

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TrallosFV wrote:<BR>Leveled up from 34 to 35 a short while ago and my avoidance dropped from 45.6% to 41.8% with the same equipment. As far as I can tell nohting else has changed, Mitigation is the same, HP and power got a small increase if any, attack might have moved up 1 or 2 points from use. What in the world would cause something like this?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>pretty much what gage said...  your mit as a % will have gone down too... 

[RafaelSmith]

Thats really stupid way to design things.  I think the not-growing into armor change is going to really cause some issues. We should get better with level?  I mean this game already has very little in terms of gettgin excited about leveling.  What makes matters worse is that armor for T6 blows in terms of actually being considered upgrades...I have yet to see ANYTHING dropped,quested, etc that remotely counts as an upgrade to what ive been using since level 40...All there is is Cobalt but thats just for mitigation...the stats on it are pitiful to say the least.  I dont expect to have the best gear since i dont raid but has the game reached the point (EQ1) where the only people that will ever get that feeling of "wow nice upgrade" are those that raid? <div></div>

[Hamervelder]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TrallosFV wrote:<BR>Leveled up from 34 to 35 a short while ago and my avoidance dropped from 45.6% to 41.8% with the same equipment. As far as I can tell nohting else has changed, Mitigation is the same, HP and power got a small increase if any, attack might have moved up 1 or 2 points from use. What in the world would cause something like this?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wait, it gets better.  Watch your avoidance very carefully.  As you gain experience during a level, you'll see your avoidance go up, only to drop again when you actually do level.  My monk's avoidance will fluctuate 10 - 15% over the course of a level.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hamervelder wrote:<BR><BR>Wait, it gets better.  Watch your avoidance very carefully.  As you gain experience during a level, you'll see your avoidance go up, only to drop again when you actually do level.  My monk's avoidance will fluctuate 10 - 15% over the course of a level. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Because you gain 1 skill point per 20%.  Therefore right before you ding the next lvl you have an advantage over mobs of your level, but when you ding it goes back again because the comparison is against a higher lvl mob (in regards to your defense etc in comparsion to the mob).<BR> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:31 PM</span>

[Edyil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hamervelder wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TrallosFV wrote:<BR>Leveled up from 34 to 35 a short while ago and my avoidance dropped from 45.6% to 41.8% with the same equipment. As far as I can tell nohting else has changed, Mitigation is the same, HP and power got a small increase if any, attack might have moved up 1 or 2 points from use. What in the world would cause something like this?<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Wait, it gets better.  Watch your avoidance very carefully.  As you gain experience during a level, you'll see your avoidance go up, only to drop again when you actually do level.  My monk's avoidance will fluctuate 10 - 15% over the course of a level. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>I noticed that too.  What an odd system.  You have gained "experience."  You now get hit more.  Congrats!</P> <P>Peaking with mitigation and avoidance right at the moment you can first fit into a piece of armor (skill wise) seems right and wrong at the same time.  If (we pretend that) the armor was wearing out, that would make sense.  But that isn't the actual intension of the system, so it makes no sense.<BR></P>

[TrallosFV]

Thanks guys, I had a feeling it was something stupid like that once I got to looking at the numbers and tooltips closely. Nothing actually changed toward mobs that are level 34, and if anyhting that went up. The interface just decides to throw out all previous useful information and compare all mitigation and avoidance to a completely new level of mobs! Stupid design...

[Moorgard]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR> <P>What an odd system.  You have gained "experience."  You now get hit more.  Congrats!<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you think it through, it makes sense. And we aren't the only game to do it this way, although it's more obvious because of the way we display the numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's say you're level 30 and have a set of gear that your Persona window says gives you 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation. This is against a level 30 no-arrow creature; your numbers will be better against a level 27 mob and worse against a level 33 mob, but you don't see those numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Three levels later, you look at your Persona window again and see that your numbers are down. Why? Because your gear is now being compared against a level 33 mob, which you already had lower numbers against and just never saw them. The Persona window is now reflecting your stats against a level 33 opponent instead of a level 30.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has your armor gotten worse? Not at all. Your numbers against a level 30 no-arrow mob are still 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation (actually a fair amount better than that, because the skills that affect your avoidance have increased while you have gained a mitigation bonus against blue cons). But again, you don't see those numbers anymore, you only see the current values against a level 33 opponent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why we show mitigation as a numerical value. The mitigation inherent in the armor doesn't change, but as you level up you keep comparing that same armor against increasingly more powerful opponents.It is logical that the same armor that protected you so well against level 30 opponents would be much less potent against something that is level 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we never showed you percentages, you wouldn't know the difference because you'd just be comparing AC numbers that don't move. So while our display can seem confusing initially, it is ultimately quite informative.</DIV>

[Tarryn]

So, then explain why if you replace a piece of armor with one that is identical in type and stats but has higher mitigation--your avoidance <EM>drops.</EM>  Is there an explanation for that one, or am I just bugged?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Rog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR> <P>What an odd system.  You have gained "experience."  You now get hit more.  Congrats!<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why we show mitigation as a numerical value. The mitigation inherent in the armor doesn't change, but as you level up you keep comparing that same armor against increasingly more powerful opponents.It is logical that the same armor that protected you so well against level 30 opponents would be much less potent against something that is level 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hmm, so is this why I take more damage and require more healing from white con mobs in the Tear Grifter missions than I did last level?  The mobs scale up their damage and my mitigation/avoidance is scaling down?  This is even with maxed defense skill.  I'm taking more parsed damage at 52 than I did at 51.</P> <P>Someday I'd also love to be able to cast a round of spells without at least three interupts.  lol Maybe focus doesn't scale with the npc's progression either.<BR></P> <DIV>Interesting stuff.  Thanks for clearing up that mystery.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tarryn wrote:<BR> So, then explain why if you replace a piece of armor with one that is identical in type and stats but has higher mitigation--your avoidance <EM>drops.</EM>  Is there an explanation for that one, or am I just bugged?  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ooh, I was confused by this also.  On a related note, Shield Factor.  </P> <P>Equipped with a buckler with a Shield Factor of 167 I have an Avoidance of 32.8%</P> <P>Equipped with a buckler with a Shield Factor of 189 I have an Avoidance of 32.4% </P> <DIV>Shouldn't a higher Shield Factor provide more avoidance?  Guess I don't know what Shield Factore really is.</DIV>

[Hirf]

<i>Has your armor gotten worse? Not at all. Your numbers against a level 30 no-arrow mob are still 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation</i>Reletively, our armor has gotten worse.  Under the old system, our armor mitigation values went up with us as we leveled (to a point of course).  Under the new system, our mitgation value remains the same as we level.<u>Illustrative example:</u><b>Old System</b>Level = nMit (total) = 100Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n mobLevel = n+1Mit (total) = 101Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n+1 mob...Level = n+9Mit (total) = 109Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n+9 mob<div></div><b>New System</b>Level = nMit (total) = 100Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n mobLevel = n+1Mit (total) = 100Mit (%) = 29.5% vs lvl n+1 mob... Level = n+9 Mit (total) = 100 Mit (%) = 25.5% vs lvl n+9 mobThis says to me that if I continue to buy sets of crafted armor every 10 levels as before then my mitigation value is going to go up in steps, whereas my avoidance goes up as the points are accrued throughout the level.As I see it, this gives me two options:1, Buy new and better armor as often as I possibly can so my total mit goes up as often as possible (sounds pricey).2, Keep doing it like before, but get smacked around really good for the few levels before it's time to buy new crafted (sounds not terribly fun).Please correct me if this (not the example, but the premise) is wrong, because I'm not terribly excited about the way things have gone for my main character (Guardian).

[Grimjakk]

<P>Actually, it depends on where they set the mitigation when they removed growth.  And since ALL the overall mitigation values have changed between the new and old systems, it'd take a comprehensive parse of logs of the same character with the same gear and level against the same mobs under BOTH the old and new systems to determine that.</P> <P>Unless we can get Moor to spill the beans. :smileytongue:</P> <P>Your example assumes that they left the mitigation of all gear set at the base level when they removed growth from the equation.  Its at least as likely that they averaged the potential growth and adjusted the base mitigation to include it... they could've even set the base mitigation to include full growth.  /shrug  Like I said, as the entire system has changed, it's all but impossible to determine that from our end.  </P> <P>Bottom line is that your armor DOES get less effective as you level.  Whether you're getting any bonus earlier in the tier or only a penalty later in the tier compared to the old system, who can say?  Having to keep an eye out for new gear at more than 10 level increments does  add to the complexity of the game tho', and I think that's a positive.</P> <P>I do wish Armorcrafters could do a few different versions of chain and plate within each tier tho'.  Brigandine chain, platemail, studded, banded, etc.</P>

[Stormreaver]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rogen wrote:<BR>Ooh, I was confused by this also.  On a related note, Shield Factor.  <P>Equipped with a buckler with a Shield Factor of 167 I have an Avoidance of 32.8%</P> <P>Equipped with a buckler with a Shield Factor of 189 I have an Avoidance of 32.4% </P> <DIV>Shouldn't a higher Shield Factor provide more avoidance?  Guess I don't know what Shield Factore really is.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Shield factor add to Mitigation - the avoidance of a shield is fixed based on type. Your stats prolly went down due to an AGI change.<BR>

[Tarryn]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Stormreaver wrote:<BR><BR>Shield factor add to Mitigation - the avoidance of a shield is fixed based on type. Your stats prolly went down due to an AGI change.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't know about shields, but I do know that if I replace a chain armor piece with another chain armor piece that has more mitigation, my avoidance drops--even when my AGI is completely unaffected by the change.  It sounds like the same can happen with shields.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't really understand why it happens...<BR></DIV>

[Priestbane]

<P>Stormreaver, that is incorrect.  Shields have always been, and are only avoidance increasers, they do not, and have not ever affected mitigation in EQ2.  The avoidance factor is modified by the quality of the shield, so while the BASE avoidance grant of the shields is 3,5, and 10%, they are modified from there by their quality level. </P> <P>I am at a loss why a shield with a higher shield factor is giving less avoidance... I would ask for a dev response on that one.</P> <P>EDIT: to clarify more.</P><p>Message Edited by Godstalk on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 PM</span>

[Marvolo62442]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hirfel wrote:<BR><I>Has your armor gotten worse? Not at all. Your numbers against a level 30 no-arrow mob are still 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation</I><BR>Reletively, our armor has gotten worse.  Under the old system, our armor mitigation values went up with us as we leveled (to a point of course).  Under the new system, our mitgation value remains the same as we level.<BR><BR><U>Illustrative example:</U><BR><B>Old System</B><BR>Level = n<BR>Mit (total) = 100<BR>Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n mob<BR>Level = n+1<BR>Mit (total) = 101<BR>Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n+1 mob<BR>...<BR>Level = n+9<BR>Mit (total) = 109<BR>Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n+9 mob<BR> <BR><B>New System</B><BR>Level = n<BR>Mit (total) = 100<BR>Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n mob<BR>Level = n+1<BR>Mit (total) = 100<BR>Mit (%) = 29.5% vs lvl n+1 mob<BR>...<BR>Level = n+9<BR>Mit (total) = 100<BR>Mit (%) = 25.5% vs lvl n+9 mob<BR><BR>This says to me that if I continue to buy sets of crafted armor every 10 levels as before then my mitigation value is going to go up in steps, whereas my avoidance goes up as the points are accrued throughout the level.<BR><BR>As I see it, this gives me two options:<BR>1, Buy new and better armor as often as I possibly can so my total mit goes up as often as possible (sounds pricey).<BR>2, Keep doing it like before, but get smacked around really good for the few levels before it's time to buy new crafted (sounds not terribly fun).<BR><BR>Please correct me if this (not the example, but the premise) is wrong, because I'm not terribly excited about the way things have gone for my main character (Guardian).<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Incorrect, the system is identical to what it was prior to the combat changes. The change is that armour no longer improves as you level. Therefore you see a much more noticable drop, but there was ALWAYS a drop when you levelled up. It was just barely noticable before as your armour improved by itself as you levelled up.</DIV>

[wurtin]

<DIV>I don't like this change at all.  Actually, it sounds like all fighters priests and scouts need to check to see if there are any other better gear out there, and then check almost every level for better gear.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That sucks</DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>You do get better when you level.</P> <P>Say level 40: 60% avoid 25% mitgation. Fight white con mob > Parse results.</P> <P>Level up to 41:</P> <P>Fight level 40 mob, parse results. I bet it has improved.</P>

[djhbeek]

<span><blockquote><hr>Moorgard wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> Edyil wrote: <p>What an odd system.  You have gained "experience."  You now get hit more.  Congrats! </p><hr> <p></p></blockquote> <div> </div> <div>When you think it through, it makes sense. And we aren't the only game to do it this way, although it's more obvious because of the way we display the numbers.</div> <div> </div> <div>Let's say you're level 30 and have a set of gear that your Persona window says gives you 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation. This is against a level 30 no-arrow creature; your numbers will be better against a level 27 mob and worse against a level 33 mob, but you don't see those numbers.</div> <div> </div> <div>Three levels later, you look at your Persona window again and see that your numbers are down. Why? Because your gear is now being compared against a level 33 mob, which you already had lower numbers against and just never saw them. The Persona window is now reflecting your stats against a level 33 opponent instead of a level 30.</div> <div> </div> <div>Has your armor gotten worse? Not at all. Your numbers against a level 30 no-arrow mob are still 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation (actually a fair amount better than that, because the skills that affect your avoidance have increased while you have gained a mitigation bonus against blue cons). But again, you don't see those numbers anymore, you only see the current values against a level 33 opponent.</div> <div> </div> <div>This is why we show mitigation as a numerical value. The mitigation inherent in the armor doesn't change, but as you level up you keep comparing that same armor against increasingly more powerful opponents.It is logical that the same armor that protected you so well against level 30 opponents would be much less potent against something that is level 40.</div> <div> </div> <div>If we never showed you percentages, you wouldn't know the difference because you'd just be comparing AC numbers that don't move. So while our display can seem confusing initially, it is ultimately quite informative.</div><hr></blockquote>Ok, we've flipped these stats back and forth between % and a number a couple times.  Is there any reason that BOTH can't be displayed ( ie. Mitigation: 3500 (50% against a lv 51) )?</span><div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nemi wrote:<p>You do get better when you level.</p> <p>Say level 40: 60% avoid 25% mitgation. Fight white con mob > Parse results.</p> <p>Level up to 41:</p> <p>Fight level 40 mob, parse results. I bet it has improved.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I understand sorta how it actually works...and yeah there would be an "improovment"..  But should I need a parser to show me that gaining a new level as improoved my character?  Shouldnt there be some visual representation? Call me vein but the problem I have is that I like to see my numbers go up when I level...its fun it gives me a feeling that ive actually leveled.  The sense of how a person "FEELS" about their character is something that should not be ingnored. With this new system until I get Cobalt for all my left side the values in my "persona" window will go down and down as I level... Sure I am slightly more "effective" against mobs that are now lower level but im still looking at my stats and asking myself...gee I look worse than I did last level. I know its silly way to look at things but its something that has bothered me all along about EQ2...the overall feeling that my character is actually advancing seems lost.</span><div></div>

[Nemi]

<P>It is just a by product of the game and it makes sense. If the armour you wore at level 10 gave you 40% and every time you levelled up it gave you 40% mitigation, you would never replace it. The system isn't new, its how its worked in lots of games, it's just that now you have a reference of a % (which is far more meaningful than a number)</P> <P>In the old system Pre LU13, armour would grow with you for a number of levels and you would maintain your %. The trouble was most armour spanned 10 levels, so you would only need to replace armour 5 times in your life.</P> <P>The problem at the moment is that the majority of armour available is still granted at 10, 20, 30, 40 and 50. To make full use of the new system, there has to be far more armour out there and at lots of different levels in between. Perhaps Pristine armour would be granted at 14, 24, 34, 44, 54. Which would mean it would give a greater % bonus as it wouldn't scale down as much between the tiers?</P> <P> </P>

[Hamen]

<DIV>ok I think the common misconception is that avoidance and mitigation are the same thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>taken from a logical stance, if I swing a bat at you and you have regular street clothes on you are more likely to avoid being hit but will mitigate next to none of the damage if you are hit. Now, take the same scenario with 50 to 75 pounds of steel that doesn't allow for free movement. You will not be less likely to avoid the bat but you will be considerably more likely to mitigate the damage. This to me makes a fair amount of sense. The same thing has to be true with shield factor, if your shield has a higher factor, logic dictates that the shield is heavier, there for has less of a chance of avoiding a strike, but a lower probability of being hurt by the same said strike.</DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>Well shields don't mitigate an attack, they block it. So I would suggest it adds avoidance.</P> <P>The shield prevents the sword hitting you, therefore you avoid the blow.</P> <P>Mitigate means to scale down the damage but you still take damage. If you scale the damage down to 0, you are in essence avoiding the attack.</P> <P> </P> <P>Aint logic wonderful.</P>

[Hamen]

<DIV>Logic is great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's use a real life version of avoidance and mitigation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Airbags, we all know and love them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now while they do prevent you from taking bodily damage in a car accident (ideally), they most certain don't cause you to avoid the accident.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How's that logic grab you? :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>That logic works fine, although you have confused the accident with the head splitting damage of impact on dashboard.</P> <P>A shield doesnt avoid you aggroing a MoB, which is comparable with an airbag avoiding an accident.</P> <P>However a shield does avoid damage from the MoB, which is comparable with an airbag avoid your head splitting open on the dash.</P>

[Hamen]

<P>A shield only avoids damage from a mob if you are able to wield it between yourself and the mobs weapons. Mobs don't attack shields they attack YOU, only in the movies do people attack shields and attack swords, for theatrical flare. If you have a heavier shield it stands to reason you have to move the shield more.</P> <P>The best movie I have seen that displays shield use was Troy, and yes he used it to avoid attacks, but given it's strapped to the body in some fashion it's still a matter of mitigation.</P>

[Ktok]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR> <P>What an odd system.  You have gained "experience."  You now get hit more.  Congrats!<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you think it through, it makes sense. And we aren't the only game to do it this way, although it's more obvious because of the way we display the numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's say you're level 30 and have a set of gear that your Persona window says gives you 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation. This is against a level 30 no-arrow creature; your numbers will be better against a level 27 mob and worse against a level 33 mob, but you don't see those numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Three levels later, you look at your Persona window again and see that your numbers are down. Why? Because your gear is now being compared against a level 33 mob, which you already had lower numbers against and just never saw them. The Persona window is now reflecting your stats against a level 33 opponent instead of a level 30.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has your armor gotten worse? Not at all. Your numbers against a level 30 no-arrow mob are still 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation (actually a fair amount better than that, because the skills that affect your avoidance have increased while you have gained a mitigation bonus against blue cons). But again, you don't see those numbers anymore, you only see the current values against a level 33 opponent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why we show mitigation as a numerical value. The mitigation inherent in the armor doesn't change, but as you level up you keep comparing that same armor against increasingly more powerful opponents.It is logical that the same armor that protected you so well against level 30 opponents would be much less potent against something that is level 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we never showed you percentages, you wouldn't know the difference because you'd just be comparing AC numbers that don't move. So while our display can seem confusing initially, it is ultimately quite informative.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Makes perfect sense to me! That explains a heck of a lot... very clearly stated, Moor, thank you. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Mystikel]

<DIV>You have to take into account all the factors determining your amors effectiveness and once, which is a lot of info but it can make sense. Factor 1 is the quality tier of the item Common, Handcrafted, Legendary etc. Factor 2 is the items level compared to the level of the mob you are fighting. So a level 42 Common item will not work as well as a level 42 Legendary item. A level 42 Common item will not work as well as a level 43 Common item. A level 42 piece of armor will not work as well on a level 43 mob as a level 43 piece of armor. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now this is the difference you are seeing.... an item you are using at level 42 will be displayed in your mitigation by the effectiveness it has against a level 42 even con solo mob. Let's say it's adds 10 points. That same piece af armor will actually only be giving 5 points of protection when fighting a 43 even con solo mob. When you level up to 43 that same piece of armor will show now as giving 5 points of protection because the number is against a solo mob at your current level. The result is you get the same amount of protection against that mob but your display is showing 5 points lower. </DIV>

[Za]

<blockquote><hr>Marvolo62442 wrote:<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hirfel wrote:<BR><I>Has your armor gotten worse? Not at all. Your numbers against a level 30 no-arrow mob are still 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation</I><BR>Reletively, our armor has gotten worse.  Under the old system, our armor mitigation values went up with us as we leveled (to a point of course).  Under the new system, our mitgation value remains the same as we level.<BR><BR><U>Illustrative example:</U><BR><B>Old System</B><BR>Level = n<BR>Mit (total) = 100<BR>Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n mob<BR>Level = n+1<BR>Mit (total) = 101<BR>Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n+1 mob<BR>...<BR>Level = n+9<BR>Mit (total) = 109<BR>Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n+9 mob<BR> <BR><B>New System</B><BR>Level = n<BR>Mit (total) = 100<BR>Mit (%) = 30% vs lvl n mob<BR>Level = n+1<BR>Mit (total) = 100<BR>Mit (%) = 29.5% vs lvl n+1 mob<BR>...<BR>Level = n+9<BR>Mit (total) = 100<BR>Mit (%) = 25.5% vs lvl n+9 mob<BR><BR>This says to me that if I continue to buy sets of crafted armor every 10 levels as before then my mitigation value is going to go up in steps, whereas my avoidance goes up as the points are accrued throughout the level.<BR><BR>As I see it, this gives me two options:<BR>1, Buy new and better armor as often as I possibly can so my total mit goes up as often as possible (sounds pricey).<BR>2, Keep doing it like before, but get smacked around really good for the few levels before it's time to buy new crafted (sounds not terribly fun).<BR><BR>Please correct me if this (not the example, but the premise) is wrong, because I'm not terribly excited about the way things have gone for my main character (Guardian).<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Incorrect, the system is identical to what it was prior to the combat changes. The change is that armour no longer improves as you level. Therefore you see a much more noticable drop, but there was ALWAYS a drop when you levelled up. It was just barely noticable before as your armour improved by itself as you levelled up.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Also, since now the armor is fixed in quality, preseumably at some point between its max and min from pre-cu, you gain a benefit using the best armor as early as possible... since now that L30 BP is balanced to be used by anyone L30-40... where-as before the L30 BP was balanced for L30 and grew a little to stay balanced at each level.

[Rochir]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moorgard wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR> <P>What an odd system.  You have gained "experience."  You now get hit more.  Congrats!<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you think it through, it makes sense. And we aren't the only game to do it this way, although it's more obvious because of the way we display the numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's say you're level 30 and have a set of gear that your Persona window says gives you 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation. This is against a level 30 no-arrow creature; your numbers will be better against a level 27 mob and worse against a level 33 mob, but you don't see those numbers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Three levels later, you look at your Persona window again and see that your numbers are down. Why? Because your gear is now being compared against a level 33 mob, which you already had lower numbers against and just never saw them. The Persona window is now reflecting your stats against a level 33 opponent instead of a level 30.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Has your armor gotten worse? Not at all. Your numbers against a level 30 no-arrow mob are still 40% avoidance and 30% mitigation (actually a fair amount better than that, because the skills that affect your avoidance have increased while you have gained a mitigation bonus against blue cons). But again, you don't see those numbers anymore, you only see the current values against a level 33 opponent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is why we show mitigation as a numerical value. The mitigation inherent in the armor doesn't change, but as you level up you keep comparing that same armor against increasingly more powerful opponents.It is logical that the same armor that protected you so well against level 30 opponents would be much less potent against something that is level 40.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we never showed you percentages, you wouldn't know the difference because you'd just be comparing AC numbers that don't move. So while our display can seem confusing initially, it is ultimately quite informative.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Ok so plate armor fighters lose mitigation and avoidance as we level up.  I was wondering, do monks and bruisers lose avoidance as they level up?  <p>Message Edited by Rochir on <span class=date_text>09-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:29 PM</span>

[Priestbane]

<DIV>Two things:</DIV> <DIV>1)  You aren't losing mitigation as you level up... you are comparing your existing gear always against an opponent that is your level... your existing gear is now being compared against a higher level mob than it was before.  You are not losing mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) The display for avoidance percentage works exactly the same way as mitigation, in that it's always being compared against an even level opponent... When you level that percentage does then reflect a lower number.  Avoidance granted by gear is less effective against the higher level monster, your own skills are at the bottom end of the level for that monster, etc.</DIV>

[Plague Mast]

<P>I could handle avoidance and mitigation going down as I level.  What I can't handle, is avoidance going down because I equipped a piece of armor with higher mitigation.  </P> <P>If you buy cobalt armor to replace ebon armor, you get +1 more ineach bonus, except considerably higher mit and resist.  So effectively your buying this new tier of armor strictly for mitigation (and a 1/34 uptick in bonuses, whoopy).  Now when I put it on, my avoidance goes down.  I didn't level, I just changed gear, from tier 5 crafted rare to tier 6 crafted rare.  Eventually on this sytem, plate tanks will have no avoidance at all.  I will not speak for other classes...</P> <P>Funny, if we buy new armor, we absorb more of the hits we take, but we take more hits.  Almost seems like we're just paying for a new graphic and ending up with the same amount of protection.  Oh wait, cobalt and ebon armor look exactly the same, never mind.</P>

[Banwar]

<DIV>It would be nice if the "blah blah blah against an even con mob" would show your "blah blah blah against your target mob."</DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV>The biggest problem is as we level our armor for that level gets worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since Sony changed how armor works.  Armor use to get better untill you maxed it out.  From there it would slowly get worse.  Now it is maxed out when you first wear it and slowly gets worse as you level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation % = Mitigation Value / Level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Mitigation Value never changes but your levels do.  So 1800 MV is 45% at level 40, 40% at level 45 and 37% at level 49.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the same for Avoidance. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If Sony added newer armor (that's fairly easy to get, AKA not fable or legendary) every 5 levels or so that offered better mitigation this wouldn't be a big issue.  </DIV>

[Hend]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <DIV>The biggest problem is as we level our armor <U>for that level gets worse</U>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now [armor] is maxed out when you first wear it and slowly <U>gets worse as you level</U>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know you mean it right, but this discussion clearly proves that it's important to be very careful how you choose your words. I would rephrase the above to:</P> <DIV>The biggest problem is as we level our armor <STRONG>becomes less and less adequate for the challenges we face</STRONG>.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Now armor is maxed out when you first wear it and slowly <STRONG>becomes</STRONG> <STRONG>less adequate</STRONG> as you level.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A straw hat offers as much protection against a nuclear bomb detonating right above you as it does against the mid-day sun, but it's more likely to be adequate against the latter. If you die under the bomb, it's not because the hat suddenly got worse.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyway, Moorgaard explained the meaning of mitigation percentage much better that can hope to do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vork, 51 guardian</DIV>