I'm unbalanced. No, not that way.

[RandomPlay]

<DIV>Dear Sony,</DIV> <DIV>Guardians are gimped compared to other fighters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(yes, I know this isn't news to most of you - just hoping if enough folks bring it up, we'll get a bone thrown our way by SOE developers - or at least an explanation)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guards can do their job, in some cases very well.  I am not saying the class is unplayable or broken when looked at independantly.  They are tanks, and they can tank.  But as the classes stack up one week after LU13, I can't imagine any new player making a conscious decision to start a new character and make them a Guardian, given the other choices, because although they can tank, so can alot of other classes (arguably as it should be) and those other classes can do alot more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's take a quick look at the elements of a class and how Guards fare...what you 'bring to the table' so to speak (going from memory and in some cases hearsay, so please feel free to correct any of these):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Mitigation: everybody and their mother wears the same armor we get. we are in the top tier of mitigators, but <EM>barely</EM></DIV>Avoidance: we are the worst tank at avoidance</DIV> <DIV>Shielding: towers are only as good as kites, and most classes get one or both - no advantage</DIV> <DIV>Off tank shielding: we are decent buffbots (oh. joy.)</DIV> <DIV>Parry/Block: definitely not on top there</DIV> <DIV>Taunts: we get the most taunts, but our best taunt (MD) can't be used to regain aggro.  Our second best taunt is on a 10 minute timer.</DIV> <DIV>DPS: we are the lowest out the chute, and we only get lower as we buff up</DIV> <DIV>Stun/Stifle/Interrupt: other fighters do more, faster</DIV> <DIV>Heals/wards/FD/invis/stealth/evac: nope</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So since we barely eek out on top in two areas but come up last in every other trait, why would anybody want to start one?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The answer that I keep coming up with is: because I've already invested a couple hundred hours of playtime.  Is that really the motivation Sony wants?  Playing a class not because it's fun or desirable, but just because it's too much hassle to start over?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not just the min/maxer flavor-of-the-month 12 hour a day hardcore raider players that have to play the "best" class.  I mean just a regular joe (or jane) who wants to have fun.  How does that sound fun for them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum up:</DIV> <DIV>Solo, we can't do what other fighters can do because we don't have the DPS or avoidance, and our mit doesn't compensate.</DIV> <DIV>XP grouping, we provide the slowest xp'ing of any MT class</DIV> <DIV>Epic raiding, we are useful, but arguably more useful as OT/shielder/buffer than as MT, not the most exciting proposition (or what people who invested the last 11 months playing hoped for)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That about cover it?</DIV> <DIV>- RP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/flamesuit on</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BostonFNO]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RandomPlayer wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum up:</DIV> <DIV>Solo, we can't do what other fighters can do because we don't have the DPS or avoidance, and our mit doesn't compensate.</DIV> <DIV>XP grouping, we provide the slowest xp'ing of any MT class</DIV> <DIV>Epic raiding, we are useful, but arguably more useful as OT/shielder/buffer than as MT, not the most exciting proposition (or what people who invested the last 11 months playing hoped for)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That about cover it?</DIV> <DIV>- RP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/flamesuit on</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><FONT color=#ff9900>Devs, please respond to our concerns.</FONT></DIV>

[Blackguard]

<span>It's difficult to give a response that will alleviate everyone's concerns, but I can tell you that we're looking for good feedback like this to ensure that all classes are fun and desirable. Keep giving us feedback, and we'll keep listening. If changes need to be made, they will be. Thanks for keeping things constructive. The more constructive feedback we get (preferably with tangible evidence rather than just perception-based opinions), the better.</span><div></div>

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackguard wrote:<span>It's difficult to give a response that will alleviate everyone's concerns, but I can tell you that we're looking for good feedback like this to ensure that all classes are fun and desirable. Keep giving us feedback, and we'll keep listening. If changes need to be made, they will be. Thanks for keeping things constructive. The more constructive feedback we get (preferably with tangible evidence rather than just perception-based opinions), the better.</span><hr></blockquote>Speaking as a Guardian, I'm coping.  The revamp hit us harder that most other classes.  Let me sum up my "perception-based opinions" on what the revamp did for(to) us.  <b>The Bad:</b> </span> <ul> <li><span>We lost both absolute tanking ability and relative tanking ability versus other fighters.  </span></li> <li><span>We lost 3 of our 7 pre-revamp taunts.   Just gone. </span></li> <li><span>The remaining taunts were nerfed heavily.  (e.g. Protect, although it has a shorter recast time and does smaller taunt as a result, had it's stifle component removed which, in addition to actually being useful, accounted for about half the taunt of the spell to begin with.)  </span></li> <li><span>Our damage CA's were all nerfed significantly, except for blast, which does double the damage it did pre-revamp with twice the recast time.  People see you do a 1K hit once every minute and think you can actually DPS decently.  </span><span></span></li> <li><span>Cleave, our level 42 DoT, now does the same damage at Master I that an adept I level Maim did in our late-20's.  </span></li> <li><span></span><span>Our self-only haste spell is gone, and with haste items no longer stacking we now attack significantly slower than we used to.  </span></li> <li><span>Our long-range pulling/slow spell is gone.  </span></li> <li><span>Our old 30-second battle buff has had it's aggro-generation nerfed to heck.  Gone are the days when a train of several encounters could come in and we could see them all turn towards us when we cast this spell.  We now have to taunt them individually to actually get aggro, and if we do that everybody using implied targetting on us will break any mez's the enchanter is trying to land, etc..  (People refuse to assist a scout for some silly reason)  I know wind up watching mobs I could pull with one taunt beat the tar out of my healer while an enchanter tries to land a mez.  </span></li> <li><span>Our other buffs no longer help us generate hate either due to their toggled nature and 1-minute recast.   (We have to drop them for a minute to recast them for aggro, and they don't seem to generate as much hate as they used to anyways)  </span></li> <li><span>We've lost about 2/3 of our ability to buff HP.  </span></li> <li><span>We are the most defensive sub-class of the most defensive class in the fighter tree who specializes in standing there and getting hit, and fighters from the most offensive sub-class of the most offensive class in the fighter tree who specialize in nimbly avoiding hits now have higher base HP than us.  It's not much, but why?  There's no practical in game reason for the tiny difference it ammounts to.  It makes no sense. It just feels like a slap in the face.  I'd call this a matter of perception really, but perception is *important*. </span></li> <li><span>Our defense buff, which was once our finest buff by far, now adds only a couple percent avoidance.   We barely even notice if it's down, whereas before we knew immediately if it dropped because suddenly we'd get our arses handed to us.</span></li> <li><span>Kite shields half the size of our massive tower shields are now functionally equivalent.  Come on!  Just a *tiny* bonus for something twice as large?  It makes no sense, and feels like a nerf targetted specifically at us even if it hit bezerkers too. </span></li> </ul> <b>The Good: </b>(sorta) <ul> <li><span>We did get one new taunt, and it is a nice one, but it definately has its drawbacks.  It's the only thing that allows us to hold aggro currently.  It's not a nice new bonus ability, but a necessary replacement to all the other, more easily used taunts we had before.  We constantly have to toggle it off and on (draining power) to re-position ourselves in a fight.  Tanks *have* to move in combat.  Telling over_nuking_wizard_001 to move that mob over beside you because you're rooted just doesn't work.  The nuisance factor to holding aggro has gone *way* up, and we've actually gotten worse at it.  </span></li> <li><span>We got a new 30 second mitigation buff, sort of.  (It replaced our long-range pulling/slow spell)  Besides having a 3 minute recast time, it lowers our DPS and, ergo, our taunt, *and* roots us.   If we use it and lose aggro we then have to click off *two* buffs that are rooting us before we can go save over_nuking_wizard_001.  </span></li> <li><span>Rescue has been improved significantly, but it's recast is still long enough that we tend to avoid casting it unless somebody is literally dying.  Other classes get it anyways.</span></li> <li><span>They *finally* fixed our damage intercept abilities.  These are nice, but I'd call it a bug-fix rather than a class improvement.  This should have been done within weeks of release.  </span></li> <li><span>Our group-mate (can't be used on self) avoidance buffs have finally been fixed.  (Again, this should have been done a long time ago.)  The way they work, other classes don't really notice any difference we provide though.   Nothing shows up in their profile and they don't receive any messages as far as I know.   One has an aggro-reduction component on it, which is actually nice.  </span></li> </ul> This is my "perception" of the revamp.  I still have fun playing the game, but I'm still getting used to working a lot harder to do a lot less.  The only way I have *any* fun at all is to completely forget the class I used to play.  It's gone now.   I know we were probably a tad overpowered before, but now we feel like we're just the opposite.  I'm sure others can post parsed logs, etc.. and quibble over stats, but please don't just dismiss "preception-based opinions" as useless.  They matter.  How the class *feels* matters.  How we perceive our own class and how others perceive it *matters*.  Perception is as important as reality, if not more so in a game like this.  <div></div>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<DIV>correction. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins have the worst avoidance of any tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins have the worst mitigation of any plate tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I duel Guards all the time and i might win 6 out of 10</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have wards and heals, but if they get interrupted im in trouble.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I have to use my LOH dueling with guards then i dont have much of an advantage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all, i dont see what guards are crying about. Guess what, palys were buff and rez bots for the 1st 10 months of this game. if your going to get a point across, at least contrast it. I agree that PLATE tanks need more mitigation or avoidance, but to say the sky is falling on guards is melodramatic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing that happened is that the Guard is not as overpowered as he used to be. Guess what, welcome to no-guard tanking that the rest of us had to deal with. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you're mortal now..deal with it. Its not just you that needs a little help. All plate tanks need a little love. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YOU DO NOT HAVE THE WORST AVOIDANCE. Palys have the worst avoidance, mitigation, and health points. Thats what our heals counter. They are not utility, since out DPS is the same as yours.</DIV>

[BostonFNO]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR><SPAN>It's difficult to give a response that will alleviate everyone's concerns, but I can tell you that we're looking for good feedback like this to ensure that all classes are fun and desirable. Keep giving us feedback, and we'll keep listening. If changes need to be made, they will be. Thanks for keeping things constructive. The more constructive feedback we get (preferably with tangible evidence rather than just perception-based opinions), the better.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>You're probably right, some people don't like the new direction we're heading in. I don't know why, it is a good one, and it was also in the original playbook after all. I for one love it, I think all the fighters should be great tanks as originally envisioned. All the priests should be as good of healers as each other. And the same goes for all the rest of the classes and what they bring to the table. Every class should be fun to play and no class should ever have such clear disadvantages. <STRONG><U>Corvan</U></STRONG> has done a bang-up job listing some of the problems us guardians have and from what <U><STRONG>U</STRONG></U></FONT><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=98525" target=_blank><SPAN><FONT color=#ff9900><STRONG>zhiel</STRONG></FONT></SPAN></A><FONT color=#ff9900> had to say, it sounds like paladins are even worse off than us. Thanks for reading them, god reading these forums must be so painful for you guys, but it's a necessary evil I guess. Anyway, now that you have brought some parity to the defensive capabilities of our fighter brothers, you need to eliminate any disadvantages in the offense and utility categories that the rest of us other fighter types have and let us all compare as equally as possible amongst ourselves.</FONT> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>Thank you for posting here letting us know you are listening to our concerns. You might not think it's much but it means a world of difference to people. I think you should post a similar response in some of the threads for the other classes that are having problems (paladins,  for instance) and let them know you are listening to them too. It will raise the spirits of the boards alot, I know it.</FONT></P></DIV>

[Syndic]

I would have to agree whole heartedly with the OP. Although we can pass just as a tank we have nothing to offer that no other fighter can't offer the same or better of.  Not only that the variety in other classes seems to be greater in what they can do.  Berzerk, FD, LoH, HT's  all these things add flavour to those other classes. What I would like to see is Guardian be the real meat shields of the fighter classes, we are the lowest on DPS, but our mitigation is barely passable.  A far greater mitigation than we already have (without the need of a defensive buff) would help. But does that make our class fun.  No not really.  I don't have any thoughts on where to go with this but to have something that guards can do. I have put 51 days played into my guardian and really don't want to start over again.  I have grown attached to him, I just feel something is missing. But by and far guardians will find it hard to survive soon. <div></div>

[Crynus]

<DIV>One little correction there Uzhiel...replace paladins with Crusaders.</DIV>

[Blackdog183]

So answer me one question, hows it feel to be one of the tanks and not THE tank anymore.  Sorry guys, you are suffering some of the same difficulties the rest of us have put up with for months, so get used to it

[Kir]

<span><blockquote><hr>Blackdog183 wrote:So answer me one question, hows it feel to be one of the tanks and not THE tank anymore.  Sorry guys, you are suffering some of the same difficulties the rest of us have put up with for months, so get used to it <div></div><hr></blockquote> So let me get this strait.  Because you happened to be broken for 10 months, and finally you are fixed, you are saying that guardians, which of one I do not play anymore, can not, and should not voice their problems and concerns in the guardian forums where they are supposed to?  I have an idea, if you dont like what they have to say, find some solace in your OWN forums, and quit trying to derail a thread that was going in the right direction.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RandomPlayer wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dear Sony,</DIV> <DIV>Guardians are gimped compared to other fighters.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Shouldn't it read:</P> <P>Dear Sony,</P> <P>Guardians are in-line now compared to other fighters, it sucks.  I wish we were still the 100% best tank despite the scenario.  I hate having to actually try to control aggro and the thought that a fighter who didn't choose guardian might actually be able to tank.</P> <P>I mean come on, to read some of these threads it sounds like you guys can't solo gray down arrow mobs, can't tank for a group and are just absolutely worthless.</P> <P>All of which I know aren't true, since we have plenty of guardians in guild grinding away the xp.</P> <P>Go figure.</P> <P>Oh, and your DPS got a nice increase, to about crusader level from the guild parses I've seen.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:12 PM</span>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RandomPlayer wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dear Sony,</DIV> <DIV>Guardians are gimped compared to other fighters.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Shouldn't it read:</P> <P>Dear Sony,</P> <P>Guardians are in-line now compared to other fighters, it sucks.  I wish we were still the 100% best tank despite the scenario.  I hate having to actually try to control aggro and the thought that a fighter who didn't choose guardian might actually be able to tank.</P> <P>I mean come on, to read some of these threads it sounds like you guys can't solo gray down arrow mobs, can't tank for a group and are just absolutely worthless.</P> <P>All of which I know aren't true, since we have plenty of guardians in guild grinding away the xp.</P> <P>Go figure.</P> <P>Oh, and your DPS got a nice increase, to about crusader level from the guild parses I've seen.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>09-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>/agree with Gauge

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I would agree that PLATE tanks need a bit more mitigation or evasion..or parry. Guards should have an AC edge over the rest of us..ill agree there too.</P> <P>But the same old guards DPS is the lowest is mumbo jumbo..u guys have the exact same DPS as crusaders, and in fact u out DPS Palys...not SK's though.</P> <P>Please check your parses before u make a statement like that. I'm all about a little tweak here and there, but putting up a statement that guards have the worst DPS of tanks is just not true.</P>

[TorqeD]

<DIV>You know. I'm getting sick of my fellow guardians crying about this and that. heres my personal experience</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First of all I still have the highest mitigation out of all other tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second I hold agro better than all other tanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Third I do more dps than all other tanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Forth I still have more hitpoints than all other tanks</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fifth and the only negative thing. I have less avoidance than brawlers. But my avoidance is still good enough to get by. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So do yourselves all a favor and stop whining and play better</DIV><p>Message Edited by TorqeDOQ on <span class=date_text>09-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 PM</span>

[Joxer]

<DIV>/agree with Gaige.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>People only whining cause they "want" their class to be the best at everything!</DIV> <DIV>Guardians are imho still the best tanks, and got a fat DPS increase aswell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thread starters post is a joke, comes with a load of rubbish but no proof</DIV><p>Message Edited by JoxerNL on <span class=date_text>09-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:17 PM</span>

[Burningho]

<P>I am glad the other fighter classes can tank.  I'm not complaining about that in the least.  </P> <P>I am also not complaining about our dps.  When I take an offensive stance I can do decent dps.  No issues here.</P> <P>What I do have an issue with is that guardians still have zero utility and zero "fun" abilities like other fighters get.  If the other fighters are close or equal to our tanking ability then our utility should be relatively equal to their utility.  </P> <DIV>The concern from the original post is a real one.  Tanking ability is pretty balanced between the classes imho (which is a good thing!).  Dps is balanced as well.  But utility is still inbalanced. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally think that a small out-of-combat group power regen buff would be a great addition to the guardian class.  Our niche (outside of tanking) would be to help reduce group downtime between fights.  It does not unbalance combat in any way, and would be a unique ability.  </DIV>

[Mgunner]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Burninghope wrote:<BR> <P>What I do have an issue with is that guardians still have zero utility and zero "fun" abilities like other fighters get.  If the other fighters are close or equal to our tanking ability then our utility should be relatively equal to their utility.  </P> <DIV>The concern from the original post is a real one.  Tanking ability is pretty balanced between the classes imho (which is a good thing!).  Dps is balanced as well.  But utility is still inbalanced. </DIV> <DIV><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Guardians do have higher mitigation than my pally.  So if i'm in a group with a guardian I am not tanking. Guardians are still the tank of choice. If it wasn't for other utilities, pally's would be worthless. When I'm in a group with a guardian my taunt spells just sit there unused. So having said that, pallies, sk's, bruisers, berserkers, etc need to have these other utilities at their disposal to actually be useful.</P> <P>The day that a paladin becomes the MT in a group over a guardian is the day I would agree guardians need other utilites.</P> <P>Tower shields, which I can't use, do need a better advantage over a kite shield versus physical attacks.<BR></P>

[Drulak]

<P>I am really annoyed that the same people have come in and ruined what started out as a great thread.</P> <P>The OP made some really good points , as was noticed by moorguard. the next poster also made some very valid points.</P> <P>This is a guardian forum and as such a place for guardians to note down major differences in play.  Anyone who does not have a 50th guard , but states facts about them , i applaud you for being able to understand the class so well. Yes we were a tad strong (at higher levels only - upto 35 , we were just as weak as all others, if not weaker) but to be bounced to bottom of the group is just as bad as having paladins there before , so shame on all you lauding it up now. I thought the purpose was to have all on a par. How can you have 2 fighetrs with equal tanking ability , but one has a greater DPS - where is the equality ??</P> <P>I can tell you now that we have not had a dps increase - I laugh at that , and whether you have parsed and seen it , i will still disagree . I have played the char and i know what DPS i did before and what i do now. For a start i do not have as many skills as i had before and all bar one have had their damage amounts dropped .the one skill that has had its damage improved , has had a greatly lengthened timer , so it kind of counts it out as a valid attack skill. (Oh and BTW my 26th Wizard out DPS's my 50th Guardian now . Broken ??? hmmmmm&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So whether you think its all fair and just that we are now gimped , great - Gaige you can now go and MT all the raids going , but what about us Guards who never MT'd raids and were happy soloing through the game , questing etc - well we are just above useless now as soloers - so can you lot leave a decent thread so we can report back to SOE about our class. How many Guards come into your forums and ruin all of your decent threads ??</P> <P>Its just not called for , so please go start a new thread and leave this one as one that SOE can read and get CORRECT information from. </P>

[Blackdog183]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>I am really annoyed that the same people have come in and ruined what started out as a great thread.</P> <P>The OP made some really good points , as was noticed by moorguard. the next poster also made some very valid points.</P> <P>This is a guardian forum and as such a place for guardians to note down major differences in play.  Anyone who does not have a 50th guard , but states facts about them , i applaud you for being able to understand the class so well. Yes we were a tad strong (at higher levels only - upto 35 , we were just as weak as all others, if not weaker) but to be bounced to bottom of the group is just as bad as having paladins there before , so shame on all you lauding it up now. I thought the purpose was to have all on a par. How can you have 2 fighetrs with equal tanking ability , but one has a greater DPS - where is the equality ??</P> <P>I can tell you now that we have not had a dps increase - I laugh at that , and whether you have parsed and seen it , i will still disagree . I have played the char and i know what DPS i did before and what i do now. For a start i do not have as many skills as i had before and all bar one have had their damage amounts dropped .the one skill that has had its damage improved , has had a greatly lengthened timer , so it kind of counts it out as a valid attack skill. (Oh and BTW my 26th Wizard out DPS's my 50th Guardian now . Broken ??? hmmmmm&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So whether you think its all fair and just that we are now gimped , great - Gaige you can now go and MT all the raids going , but what about us Guards who never MT'd raids and were happy soloing through the game , questing etc - well we are just above useless now as soloers - so can you lot leave a decent thread so we can report back to SOE about our class. How many Guards come into your forums and ruin all of your decent threads ??</P> <P>Its just not called for , so please go start a new thread and leave this one as one that SOE can read and get CORRECT information from. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So basically what your saying is that even though there is hard numbers proving that your DPS is on par with other fighter calsses, you would ignore the obvious hard data because u want to be on the top of pile again, and be THE tank not one the tanks, thats pretty much what I got out of it.  Guess what ALL tanks had their dps modified, some brought up, some down so their on par.  To say that you would ignore hard data showing that you DPS is equal to other fighters, just because you did more DPS pre-revamp is well...asinine.  Also note, this is a public forum, and we can come in here and speak to anything we wish, fact is, this is a threat about guards complainging that your not on the top of the head anymore, and actually have to WORK at holding aggro.</P> <P>Sorry, I wont stay out of it, I as an SK sat back broke for months and months, while the Guards and Zerkers enjoyed the most dps, most miti and most avoidance, as well as largest health pool...</P> <P>Guess what, its balanced finnaly, your one of the tanks, not the only tank, so get over it.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>I am really annoyed that the same people have come in and ruined what started out as a great thread.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Funny what can annoy some people.</FONT></P> <P>The OP made some really good points , as was noticed by moorguard. the next poster also made some very valid points.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Don't you mean Blackguard?  /shrug</FONT></P> <P>How can you have 2 fighetrs with equal tanking ability , but one has a greater DPS - where is the equality ??  <FONT color=#ffff00>Guardians are still the best tanks.</FONT></P> <P>I can tell you now that we have not had a dps increase - I laugh at that , and whether you have parsed and seen it , i will still disagree.  <FONT color=#ffff00>You can disagree until your face is blue, it doesn't matter.  Your agreement doesn't change the facts that your DPS has improved, to about crusader level.</FONT></P> <P>So whether you think its all fair and just that we are now gimped , great - Gaige you can now go and MT all the raids going.  <FONT color=#ffff00>That has yet to be seen, as I'm still grinding.  Thanks for the vote of confidence though.</FONT></P> <P>well we are just above useless now as soloers  <FONT color=#ffff00>I disagree with your statement about guardians being unable to solo.</FONT></P> <P>How many Guards come into your forums and ruin all of your decent threads ??  <FONT color=#ffff00>A lot.</FONT></P> <P>Its just not called for , so please go start a new thread and leave this one as one that SOE can read and get CORRECT information from.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Sorry, request denied.  I'm sure SOE can gather what they want despite who posts.  They're intelligent like that.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[sylvo]

I dont care about soloing. I dont care about my dps. I dont want utility. Guardians chose guardians because we wanted to be the most defensive subclass of the most defensive archetype. Guardians do tank better and do have more HP's. ------------------------------------ We solo fine normal solo mobs. If we get any kind of add generally you run for your life - but I can live with that. DPS as a whole seems to have gone slightly up. But judging my raid parses (I dont get parsed any other time :p) My dps is pretty much where it was before. Nerf it if you like *shrug* really dont care :p Guardians tank better but only negligibly (sp), I will happily step aside to a crusader or brawler when exping, it has happened in the past and will happen in the future. Its a nice break and with my buffs on they do a fine job. We have slightly more HP's because of the way that we have geared our chars and the fact that we have 1 self only sta buffs. If you have a brawler go all out HP I dont doubt he could reach a very similar level and higher in comparison with a guardian. We just happened to know our role and as such chose respecs and gear accordingly. Brawler considering they are supposed to have the lowest power pools always seem to have more power than me - but *shrug* ------------------------------------- Points. Why are kite shields exactly the same as tower shields (seriously) ? Brawler avoidance advantage way > than plate tank mitigation gap. Seriously look at this please. Farhane. <div></div>

[Tochy]

<DIV> <P>Hi, I m a lvl 49 Guardian and I can tell that I like this new environement. There is only few things that can put me down :</P> <P>- To have read that there is some class that can take Heroic^^^  encouter at the same lvl than us, and do it well. I understand that I can't take heroic encounters, that the new system, solo are solo, group are groupe. But to know that some peoples can do it because of just there class is a bite frustating . And show me that there is still mods to do from the dev.</P> <P>- The raids boss that now can't be done :/ my guild is more a normal one, and we are reaching the end of the EQ2 those days and we can't even thinking to do it now.</P> <P>- More about my class: I agree with the idea that having heavy armor drope down avoidance but I think the counter part on mitigation is too low. we are always been hit, and that's meen 2 things : loosing hp ( ok less then the others but vs groupe of 3/4 mobs, even down arrows and green, that's a lot of hp), and we always get the second effects of some arts , like pacified, stiffle, stun, stun, stun always stun. And we are not dps so fight with us are long, sometimes impossible because the healer is OOM, and so more HP to loose. </P> <P>We need something to counterbalance that, i mean other class can heal, ward, mend or avoid to be stunned. That's the only thing that disturbed me, it's missing something special now for us. One time I got an idea that having a "Purge" (like the DAoC one) battle cry, instant cast, long recast , zone or group effect that remove all down effects (stun, mez, stiffle, slow etc ... ) on the area effect and give invulnerability to those things during 10/15 sec would be cool and give us a cool utility in group than meat shield ( that other can do better now even mage pet).</P> <P>Oh and please give us back something to stiffle, stun; pacify on our taunt group shout. Taking those group of mobs with 1 or 2 healers with them is close to impossible or sometimes really boring. We just have our single target, long recast, pacify tech to do that or need to get the shield out but still single target.</P></DIV>

[Corv]

    Gaige, blackdog, etc...  Keep it constructive.  We already know you think guardians need to be nerfed into some form of gelatinous goo so monk/pally-quest can commence.  Regardless, we actually got a dev response on the Guardian board! (a rarity compared to the bruiser board for some reason...)  Let's not waste it on yet another flame-war.  If Blackguard claims he would like to make the Guardian class more *fun*, let's try to generate some constructive ideas.      I'm not even going to touch the balance of mitigation, avoidance, etc. across the classes.  Until we see where things shake out at 60 with T6 fabled and level 60 buffs, spells, abilities, etc. and get a feel for the new end-game I think any such discussion is premature.  I would hope the dev's stick to the defense/offense hiearchy they posted at the beginning of this whole revamp business.   Hopefully they will reevaluate some of the sillier decisions they've made that make no roleplay or gameplay sense.  (*cough* Tower shields *cough* Brawler HP *cough*)   I firmly believe that game mechanics should make logical sense whennever possible, and some most certainly do not at present.     I think what's more important is to take a look at the actual game-play of the class and how it can be made more fun.  Some unique, *new* abilities that would make the revamp feel like less of an all-bases-nerf would certainly be nice, but I won't hold my breath.  However, some of the negatives to our current spells could be lessened to make the class less of a nuisance to play without significantly impacting balance.  For example, turning Anchor and the Maddening Defense Line into very strong snares instead of roots would take a large ammount of toggling out.  We should certainly be snared enough that we won't run around with either buff up, but if we could move fast enough to move 5 feet in the time it takes to toggle Maddening Defense off and back on it'd be wonderful.  Just enough for minor position adjustments.  Anchor could certainly stand to have fewer draw-backs given it's *long* recast and *short* duration anyways.  Getting a version of the pre-revamp Anchor back would be wonderful too, even if it's just a 1% slow.  Having a long-range pulling spell was bloody nice.  Why they took it away from guardians and left it with other classes, I have no idea.  Any other *constructive* thoughts?  <div></div>

[Tochy]

<DIV>Give us a group "Purge" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, they have Ward, Heal, Lay Hand and Mend, we have "Purge" <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> or remove the "root attacker when hit" buff by "boost caster mitigation when hit" buff. More enemy hit us, more we can mitigate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Else,  really thank you "Blackguard" to show us that SOE is taking a look on US and give us some hope that maybe something will change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*going back to work* <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Tochyao on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 AM</span>

[blueduckie]

<P>From my experiences best i can give about guardians.</P> <P>Aggro: aggro is fine if you use your best tools for it, shouldnt peel unless grouped with someone going crazy that burns all his power as fast as he can. When it comes to raiding i think agrro will be easy(havnt raided yet with changes) however power doesnt last forever near regen like it used to so keeping up aggro ro power burning with hp on mobs should be fairly easy and you have 1 saving grace with rescue. Retaliation will be nice also. I wish maddening would proc through ward hits but that is no big deal to get around.</P> <P>Utility: Our utility is fine for what id like. It is less than others on personal utility but our group utility is good. Sentry / Guardian Sphere / Assuage / Vigilance.</P> <P>HP: Our hp is close to all but a little higher from our buffs so I am happy with that. I dont need 2k hp over people but being able to be the top is definatly what i expected out of the guardian line.</P> <P>Avoidance: I feel it is too high in some cases and too low in some others. I think us getting these raw misses on yellow cons is odd. I think we should shield block with tower than kite shield by 5% again and get rid of those random misses IMO. Plate tanks shouldnt have them. We should need to parry riposte block and diodge i guess. Dodge is odd to me also its hard to dodge IMO. Id rather lose dodge for a spell resistance skills as warriors naturally would resist the will of spells in lore. I think that would be good for guardians and zerkers. Our defense buffs including our 30 sec buff feel useless to me. I havnt seen it add much to misses except maybe a green or blue. I consider that more of a solo type skill for a 30 sec boost than a tool in most situations.</P> <P>Mitigation: Gungo keeps mentioning with there 3 min buff up our mitigation is still higher but if that holds up it is very small. See a bruiser in defense stance with out it on like 1800 mitigation i think. With it on 2800 mitigation? Thats more than I have. In half fabled i sit at 2501 in defense stance all buffs adept 3 or master. So for 1 minute i can be at 2900+ splitting my 2 30 sec mit. Now here is where i get frustrated with it. Bruisers last 3 min with 3 min off. We get 1 min out of commanding pressence every 3 min which is 336 crushing mit 420 slash pierc at adept 3. Then we get 736 mit while rooting us and decreasing dps / attack speed for 30 sec every 30 min. So to say our 30 sec buffs are just icing on a cake. It isnt true. The hp drain on your skill is very small for how powerful it is IMO. I also dont understand why are stance is the same mitigation as all classes seem to be. Would think this would be the line to give mitigation a more unqie angle. My problem with current tanking is id like noticeable differences. With how it is atm there is hardly a mitigation difference between a ranger and a guardian. I dont care about my avoidance cause i dont consider myself a avoidance tank. I want to see noticeable dmg in how hard I am hit from another tho. I dont think the guardian class is bad off but its mitigation isnt where it should be. Even with 30 sec buffs compared to others we will only be like 5% mitigation higher than a bruiser vs a 64 mob while we avoid less. When a mob hits hard like the x4's are hitting atm. That 5% mitigation doesnt make up for the misses on healers. Healers have incredible long recast times. They do better healing spike dmg now than constant dmg.</P> <P>DPS: our dps is fine we cant keep it up constant but on xp mobs in short groups who kill fast it looks high because we can keep a 200ish dps up with burning through are skills and mob dieing. If we have to go through 2 cycles our DPS cuts down to 150ish dps. Cuts even more if have to go through a 3rd. Our power on skills drains fast we cant keep up on dps. I wouldnt expect any difference makes soloing go a little better.</P> <P>Over all guardian changes arnt bad however I think we should still have a little more tweaked out to us to make us fit our role more. Dont really care what other classes are doing as much as we arnt mitigating mobs liek we should. Only reason we tank decent on xp mobs is because if it is yellow or lower we avoid alot. It has nothing to do with mitigation. That is the problem. We are a poor excuse of avoidance tanks. That needs tweaked some. 500 mitigation would probably be enough. I however think in sitting stats in same quality of gear our mitigation should be 25 - 35% ahead of a brawler where our avoidance should be as seperate. Until getting into some dof raids will be hard to have the number crunching to support what i propose. Whether other classes think its unfair to ask to be mitigation tanks or not is what we all are asking for. The seperation in mit is so small if you dont believe me. Have a ranger tank in your group sometime then a guardian with both in defense stance. Ask them the numbers they took from hits. Its very small difference. Scouts for teh win.</P>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackdog183 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>I am really annoyed that the same people have come in and ruined what started out as a great thread.</P> <P>The OP made some really good points , as was noticed by moorguard. the next poster also made some very valid points.</P> <P>This is a guardian forum and as such a place for guardians to note down major differences in play.  Anyone who does not have a 50th guard , but states facts about them , i applaud you for being able to understand the class so well. Yes we were a tad strong (at higher levels only - upto 35 , we were just as weak as all others, if not weaker) but to be bounced to bottom of the group is just as bad as having paladins there before , so shame on all you lauding it up now. I thought the purpose was to have all on a par. How can you have 2 fighetrs with equal tanking ability , but one has a greater DPS - where is the equality ??</P> <P>I can tell you now that we have not had a dps increase - I laugh at that , and whether you have parsed and seen it , i will still disagree . I have played the char and i know what DPS i did before and what i do now. For a start i do not have as many skills as i had before and all bar one have had their damage amounts dropped .the one skill that has had its damage improved , has had a greatly lengthened timer , so it kind of counts it out as a valid attack skill. (Oh and BTW my 26th Wizard out DPS's my 50th Guardian now . Broken ??? hmmmmm&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So whether you think its all fair and just that we are now gimped , great - Gaige you can now go and MT all the raids going , but what about us Guards who never MT'd raids and were happy soloing through the game , questing etc - well we are just above useless now as soloers - so can you lot leave a decent thread so we can report back to SOE about our class. How many Guards come into your forums and ruin all of your decent threads ??</P> <P>Its just not called for , so please go start a new thread and leave this one as one that SOE can read and get CORRECT information from. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><FONT color=#ff0000>So basically what your saying is that even though there is hard numbers proving that your DPS is on par with other fighter calsses, you would ignore the obvious hard data because u want to be on the top of pile again, and be THE tank not one the tanks, thats pretty much what I got out of it</FONT>.  Guess what ALL tanks had their dps modified, some brought up, some down so their on par.  To say that you would ignore hard data showing that you DPS is equal to other fighters, just because you did more DPS pre-revamp is well...asinine.  Also note, this is a public forum, and we can come in here and speak to anything we wish, fact is, this is a threat about guards complainging that your not on the top of the head anymore, and actually have to WORK at holding aggro.</P> <P>Sorry, I wont stay out of it, I as an SK sat back broke for months and months, while the Guards and Zerkers enjoyed the most dps, most miti and most avoidance, as well as largest health pool...</P> <P>Guess what, its balanced finnaly, your one of the tanks, not the only tank, so get over it.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Where in my post did i say that ?? i was answering Gaige who said our DPS has improved. I was saying it has gone down. I no where compared it to other fighter classes , so i am glad you can insinuate that from nothing. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not care whether we are now all in line with other tanks - i was just saying we have not had our DPS go up.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>I am really annoyed that the same people have come in and ruined what started out as a great thread.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Funny what can annoy some people.</FONT></P> <P>The OP made some really good points , as was noticed by moorguard. the next poster also made some very valid points.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Don't you mean Blackguard?  /shrug</FONT></P> <P>How can you have 2 fighetrs with equal tanking ability , but one has a greater DPS - where is the equality ??  <FONT color=#ffff00>Guardians are still the best tanks. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>WHY ?</FONT></P> <P>I can tell you now that we have not had a dps increase - I laugh at that , and whether you have parsed and seen it , i will still disagree.  <FONT color=#ffff00>You can disagree until your face is blue, it doesn't matter.  Your agreement doesn't change the facts that your DPS has improved, to about crusader level.  </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>Ok so you have facts being a Monk , i on the other hand who played a guard before and after revamp have no idea what DPS i was doing then and now.</FONT></P> <P>So whether you think its all fair and just that we are now gimped , great - Gaige you can now go and MT all the raids going.  <FONT color=#ffff00>That has yet to be seen, as I'm still grinding.  Thanks for the vote of confidence though.</FONT></P> <P>well we are just above useless now as soloers  <FONT color=#ffff00>I disagree with your statement about guardians being unable to solo. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>we can solo , but not if we want to level. have you seen the XP you get for 1 kill and how dented HP and power bars are , so the length of DT between fights ?</FONT></P> <P>How many Guards come into your forums and ruin all of your decent threads ??  <FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ffff00>A lot.</FONT>  well they shouldn't <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>Its just not called for , so please go start a new thread and leave this one as one that SOE can read and get CORRECT information from.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Sorry, request denied.  I'm sure SOE can gather what they want despite who posts.  They're intelligent like that. </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>You just like getting into fights - i really wish i was able to just ignore you and not reply , i guess you love the attention. But unfortuntaley i am bored at work , so this fills some time <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<DIV>Dear sony,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a guard and a monk.  Right now they are the pretty much equal and I see no imbalance.  Please try to understand that some guardians are used to being gods on their servers.  I have played a guard to 50 and it was to easy.  They duoed with a templar could fight amazing things pre patch.  Now there is some actual challenge.  I know that you want to make the fighter archetype do their base jobs equally in a different way and I applaud you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  The only thing I would like to add is that Guards do lack just a smidgen in utility.  Most guardians don't see as guarding others as their utility, however I feel that soon, this ability may be more appreciated when raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thank you sony,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Drulak wrote: <P>Where in my post did i say that ?? i was answering Gaige who said our DPS has improved. I was saying it has gone down. I no where compared it to other fighter classes , so i am glad you can insinuate that from nothing.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not care whether we are now all in line with other tanks - i was just saying we have not had our DPS go up.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>You're wrong.  Your dps has gone up.  I don't play a guard, but I do group with some from time to time and we normally run parses.  That along with other guards citing a dps increase and your own admission of not caring about hard numbers leads me to believe you are misinformed or obvlious.<BR> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:55 AM</span>

[Aandien]

<DIV>Guards need some help in the aggro department.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Comparing myself directly with a monk friend.  If we both engage a mob simultaneously and go all out -- both using every taunt we have as they recycle as well as our most powerful CA's as they recycle.  He steals aggro every single time very early in the fight and never loses it until the mob is dead.  This includes me using Maddening Defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My CA's and taunts are upgraded higher than his too (several are masters) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I agree that fighters in general may need to work on aggro control when grouping with other classes.  However, 2 fighters competing for aggro should be neck and neck and aggro should swap back and forth.  It currently is not.  At least with monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, would like to add --- I can put Assuage on the monk (apprentice 4) and he still can take aggro from me when trying.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by AncientElster on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:13 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by AncientElster on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:15 AM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

To the Guards insisting that our DPS went down..all I can say is QUIT COMPARING POST LU13 numbers to PRE LU13 numbers...thats just plain stupid.  Everything got adjusted and relatively speaking ide say our DPS -vs- the mobs is about the same if not higher...In general the same xp/solo mobs we did 2 weeks ago die faster today. To the other fighter types insisting that Guardians should suck it up and that we are getting what we deserver...all i can say is ...ok im not allowed to say that. I thank the devs for at least recognizing a well written post describing what I think all the smart Gaurdians out there are feeling. -My DPS is fine -My avoidance is fine -My HP are too low. -My mitigation does not reflect the fact that I am a mitigation tank -vs- a avoidance tank. -My aggro is fine...could use a few more tricks to allow me to peel or regain aggro. -Tower Shields -vs- Kite Shields...the current design is just plain stupid...sorry but thats about as constructive as a I can be on that subject. Ideas: -Perhaps add some sorta hate proc to one of our stances or 30sec buffs.  The 30sec buff makes most sense since this would be something we wouldnt use all the time but only in emergencies. Or a short duration hate buff proc to our melee...kinda like the Enemy Mastery. -Increase the amount of mitigation form our buffs across the board.  I really think we should be running around  at around 65/35 instead of the 45/45 i do now. -lower re-use on Rescue to 5min instead of 10. -Perhaps make it so other players persona windows reflect numerically what our various protection buffs do...at least they can see that we are doing more than just standing there taunting. I dont want to be a tank god...i just want some reason to not always be feeling that ide rather be another fighter. <div></div>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Drulak wrote: <P>Where in my post did i say that ?? i was answering Gaige who said our DPS has improved. I was saying it has gone down. I no where compared it to other fighter classes , so i am glad you can insinuate that from nothing.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not care whether we are now all in line with other tanks - i was just saying we have not had our DPS go up.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>You're wrong.  Your dps has gone up.  I don't play a guard, but I do group with some from time to time and we normally run parses.  That along with other guards citing a dps increase and your own admission of not caring about hard numbers leads me to believe you are misinformed or obvlious.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:55 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok yet again mis quote why don't ya . I never said i do not care for hard numbers , i said i do not care where we sit in line with other fighters.</P> <P>I am not complaining about what our DPS is atm , but before revamp i had alot more skills that did more damage (written on the skill for me to see) I now have less of those skills as some were moved onto same timers that were not before. That equals less skill buttons to push and all skills bar one doing less damage than they did before. So how can that equal more DPS ??  hard numbers point to DPS going down.</P> <P>Now you maybe comparing us to pally's and saying we are equal to them and so our DPS has gone up - well if they have gone down too then doesn't mean ours has gone up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and also i think that i out DPS'd a pally before the re-vamp anyway.</P> <P>We are not DPS Fighters and i do not want to be , just don't want people reading your post and saying look quick NERF the guardians , their DPS has gone up.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>One thing that also needs to be taken into account , if u have offensive stance on , then we do do more dps , but are you comparing guards to other fighters who also have offensive stance on ?  are the guards u are parsing in MT role ?</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Ok yet again mis quote why don't ya . I never said i do not care for hard numbers , i said i do not care where we sit in line with other fighters.</P> <P>I am not complaining about what our DPS is atm , but before revamp i had alot more skills that did more damage (written on the skill for me to see) I now have less of those skills as some were moved onto same timers that were not before. That equals less skill buttons to push and all skills bar one doing less damage than they did before. So how can that equal more DPS ??  hard numbers point to DPS going down.</P> <P>Now you maybe comparing us to pally's and saying we are equal to them and so our DPS has gone up - well if they have gone down too then doesn't mean ours has gone up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and also i think that i out DPS'd a pally before the re-vamp anyway.</P> <P>We are not DPS Fighters and i do not want to be , just don't want people reading your post and saying look quick NERF the guardians , their DPS has gone up.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>One thing that also needs to be taken into account , if u have offensive stance on , then we do do more dps , but are you comparing guards to other fighters who also have offensive stance on ?  are the guards u are parsing in MT role ?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/sigh</P> <P>For one you CAN NOT COMPARE the NUMBER written on the CA examine window from PRE-DOF to NOW.  Because yes EVERY CA you have is going to list lower damage.  Just like every single one of mine do, as do every single one of every class out there does.</P> <P>EVERYTHING about combat and spells changed with the expansion.</P> <P>So you're "I had a lot more skills that did a lot more damage" statement shows you are a little ignorant and misinformed.  Or being outright silly on purpose, whichever.</P> <P>Anything pre expansion doesn't matter.  Its like comparing apples to airplanes.  Totally different system.  All that matter is how your DPS compares *now* to other fighters.  In that regard it has increased.  You can DPS on about the same level as a crusader when offtank. </P> <P>But anyway, that's all been explained before so you should be aware of it by now.</P> <P>As for saying you don't care about hard numbers:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>I can tell you now that we have not had a dps increase - I laugh at that , <FONT color=#ffff00>and whether you have parsed and seen it , i will still disagree</FONT> . I have played the char and i know what DPS i did before and what i do now. For a start i do not have as many skills as i had before and all bar one have had their damage amounts dropped .the one skill that has had its damage improved , has had a greatly lengthened timer , so it kind of counts it out as a valid attack skill.</P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So you are saying that even my parses, which show hard numbers, do not matter because you will disagree because of what the damage output says on the examine window.  Which doesn't matter because every spell in the game was lowered, including huge dmg ones like Ice Comet.</P> <P>So quit comparing your guardian now to pre expansion and compare it to some other fighters post expansion, if you want an accurate assessment of your abilities.</P> <P>If you prefer to remain ignorant to the facts, then please continue to compare to pre expansion and be irritated and convinced you're right.  At least it makes me laugh.<BR><BR></P>

[Ne]

<DIV>I agree with Gaige, how about that! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians tank just fine, and deal damage just fine, and have some really nice buffs. The only difference now is that so does the other fighters. Someone said "I just dont want to wish that I had chosen another fighter"... guess what, many of the non-guardians have been wishing that for 10 months after being nothing but buff-bots and dps in raids...  where did that "I am a guardian so I should be the only tank"-mentality come from anyway? </DIV>

[Belgor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RandomPlayer wrote:<BR> <DIV>Dear Sony,</DIV> <DIV>Guardians are gimped compared to other fighters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(yes, I know this isn't news to most of you - just hoping if enough folks bring it up, we'll get a bone thrown our way by SOE developers - or at least an explanation)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guards can do their job, in some cases very well.  I am not saying the class is unplayable or broken when looked at independantly.  They are tanks, and they can tank.  But as the classes stack up one week after LU13, I can't imagine any new player making a conscious decision to start a new character and make them a Guardian, given the other choices, because although they can tank, so can alot of other classes (arguably as it should be) and those other classes can do alot more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let's take a quick look at the elements of a class and how Guards fare...what you 'bring to the table' so to speak (going from memory and in some cases hearsay, so please feel free to correct any of these):</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Mitigation: everybody and their mother wears the same armor we get. we are in the top tier of mitigators, but <EM>barely</EM></DIV>Avoidance: we are the worst tank at avoidance</DIV> <DIV>Shielding: towers are only as good as kites, and most classes get one or both - no advantage</DIV> <DIV>Off tank shielding: we are decent buffbots (oh. joy.)</DIV> <DIV>Parry/Block: definitely not on top there</DIV> <DIV>Taunts: we get the most taunts, but our best taunt (MD) can't be used to regain aggro.  Our second best taunt is on a 10 minute timer.</DIV> <DIV>DPS: we are the lowest out the chute, and we only get lower as we buff up</DIV> <DIV>Stun/Stifle/Interrupt: other fighters do more, faster</DIV> <DIV>Heals/wards/FD/invis/stealth/evac: nope</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So since we barely eek out on top in two areas but come up last in every other trait, why would anybody want to start one?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The answer that I keep coming up with is: because I've already invested a couple hundred hours of playtime.  Is that really the motivation Sony wants?  Playing a class not because it's fun or desirable, but just because it's too much hassle to start over?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not just the min/maxer flavor-of-the-month 12 hour a day hardcore raider players that have to play the "best" class.  I mean just a regular joe (or jane) who wants to have fun.  How does that sound fun for them?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To sum up:</DIV> <DIV>Solo, we can't do what other fighters can do because we don't have the DPS or avoidance, and our mit doesn't compensate.</DIV> <DIV>XP grouping, we provide the slowest xp'ing of any MT class</DIV> <DIV>Epic raiding, we are useful, but arguably more useful as OT/shielder/buffer than as MT, not the most exciting proposition (or what people who invested the last 11 months playing hoped for)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That about cover it?</DIV> <DIV>- RP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/flamesuit on</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I have no problem with good feedback, but don't make up lies and at least do some research.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians do have the highest mitigation. They have higher mitigation than other plate-tanks because of their mitigation-buffs.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians are NOT the worst tank at avoidance. I know Paladins for one have worse avoidance. Probably shadowknights too.</DIV> <DIV>Tower Shields vs Kite Shields: Sure, they have the same block-rating, so the advantage guardians get over crusaders are that they have more shields to choose from atm.</DIV> <DIV>Parry/Block: You do have higher parry-skill from your buffs compared to crusaders.</DIV> <DIV>DPS: I have only done minor parsing so far, but I seriously doubt you are below Paladins in dps, and if you are, you don't have much support for it in your post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So no, you don't end up last in every other trait.</DIV>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Ok yet again mis quote why don't ya . I never said i do not care for hard numbers , i said i do not care where we sit in line with other fighters.</P> <P>I am not complaining about what our DPS is atm , but before revamp i had alot more skills that did more damage (written on the skill for me to see) I now have less of those skills as some were moved onto same timers that were not before. That equals less skill buttons to push and all skills bar one doing less damage than they did before. So how can that equal more DPS ??  hard numbers point to DPS going down.</P> <P>Now you maybe comparing us to pally's and saying we are equal to them and so our DPS has gone up - well if they have gone down too then doesn't mean ours has gone up <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> and also i think that i out DPS'd a pally before the re-vamp anyway.</P> <P>We are not DPS Fighters and i do not want to be , just don't want people reading your post and saying look quick NERF the guardians , their DPS has gone up.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>One thing that also needs to be taken into account , if u have offensive stance on , then we do do more dps , but are you comparing guards to other fighters who also have offensive stance on ?  are the guards u are parsing in MT role ?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/sigh</P> <P>For one you CAN NOT COMPARE the NUMBER written on the CA examine window from PRE-DOF to NOW.  Because yes EVERY CA you have is going to list lower damage.  Just like every single one of mine do, as do every single one of every class out there does.</P> <P>EVERYTHING about combat and spells changed with the expansion.</P> <P>So you're "I had a lot more skills that did a lot more damage" statement shows you are a little ignorant and misinformed.  Or being outright silly on purpose, whichever.</P> <P>Anything pre expansion doesn't matter.  Its like comparing apples to airplanes.  Totally different system.  All that matter is how your DPS compares *now* to other fighters.  In that regard it has increased.  You can DPS on about the same level as a crusader when offtank. </P> <P>But anyway, that's all been explained before so you should be aware of it by now.</P> <P>As for saying you don't care about hard numbers:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>I can tell you now that we have not had a dps increase - I laugh at that , <FONT color=#ffff00>and whether you have parsed and seen it , i will still disagree</FONT> . I have played the char and i know what DPS i did before and what i do now. For a start i do not have as many skills as i had before and all bar one have had their damage amounts dropped .the one skill that has had its damage improved , has had a greatly lengthened timer , so it kind of counts it out as a valid attack skill.</P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So you are saying that even my parses, which show hard numbers, do not matter because you will disagree because of what the damage output says on the examine window.  Which doesn't matter because every spell in the game was lowered, including huge dmg ones like Ice Comet.</P> <P>So quit comparing your guardian now to pre expansion and compare it to some other fighters post expansion, if you want an accurate assessment of your abilities.</P> <P>If you prefer to remain ignorant to the facts, then please continue to compare to pre expansion and be irritated and convinced you're right.  At least it makes me laugh.<BR><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I will concede i did not realise you meant our DPS had gone up in comparison , i thought you meant to ourselves (other posters have stated that dps has gone up - they were not referring to againt other classes but against ourselves pre revamp) - so i bow to you on that one as i had a misunderstanding of what you meant.<BR></P> <DIV> <P>as for parsing against a pally , i would [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well hope i could out DPS a Pally , if i could not - well where is the justice in that - they can heal themselves , if   they wear plate,  out DPS us and heal - that would make pally's uber compared to us would it not ?  But i feel we out dps'd pall's before revamp as well. Correct me if i am wrong , as i could not say hand on heart , but i do know people always moaned about how much dps i did pre revamp when i was parsed in a group.</P> <P> </P></DIV>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nedo wrote:<div>I agree with Gaige, how about that! </div> <div> </div> <div>Guardians tank just fine, and deal damage just fine, and have some really nice buffs. The only difference now is that so does the other fighters. Someone said "I just dont want to wish that I had chosen another fighter"... guess what, many of the non-guardians have been wishing that for 10 months after being nothing but buff-bots and dps in raids...  where did that "I am a guardian so I should be the only tank"-mentality come from anyway? </div><hr></blockquote>How does "</span><span>I just dont want to wish that I had chosen another fighter" equate to "</span><span>am a guardian so I should be the only tank">? I dont want to be the only tank...hell i dont want to be the preferred tank...i just want a reason to exist ..the only reason  currently is because I already exist and  dont wanna start over. So now  I am  in the same shoes you were  pre-LU13.     So I guess  2 wrongs  do make a right? </span><span></span><div></div>

[EvilIguana9]

On the topic of kite shields vs tower shields.  They have the same avoidance now because warriors have no need for extra avoidance beyond what crusaders have.  We are both tanks and until crusaders can use tower shields they should remain the same stat wise.  Keep in mind that being able to use towers gives warriors an advantage insofar as there is a wider selection of shields to choose from, and no competition for tower shields as warriors are the ONLY class that can use them. However, from a realistic perspective there is plenty of reason for tower shields to protect no better than kite shields.  Tower shields are bigger yes, but they are heavy and hard to move with in combat meaning the areas that aren't immediatly protected by the shield are harder to defend than with a smaller more nimble shield.  Tower shields are really more for groups of people to use as a wall when advancing. <div></div>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nedo wrote:<BR> <DIV>I agree with Gaige, how about that! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians tank just fine, and deal damage just fine, and have some really nice buffs. The only difference now is that so does the other fighters. Someone said "I just dont want to wish that I had chosen another fighter"... guess what, many of the non-guardians have been wishing that for 10 months after being nothing but buff-bots and dps in raids...  where did that "I am a guardian so I should be the only tank"-mentality come from anyway? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I do not think that was a mentality that guardians held , just a belief that all non guardians had about guardians. I have never minded who tanked between myself and a pally/sk/monk etc - so that mentality never came from me. My only complaint was that in a raid - people would ONLY accept the guard if it was for MT slot or MA , otherwise we could not get into raid , other fighters could.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Drulak wrote: <P>as for parsing against a pally , i would [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well hope i could out DPS a Pally , if i could not - well where is the justice in that - they can heal themselves , if   they wear plate,  out DPS us and heal - that would make pally's uber compared to us would it not ?  But i feel we out dps'd pall's before revamp as well. Correct me if i am wrong , as i could not say hand on heart , but i do know people always moaned about how much dps i did pre revamp when i was parsed in a group.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In the scheme of things they should out dps you though, hence my point. </P> <P>That is SOE statement too, not my opinion before you spazz out <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Ktok]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<BR> <DIV>Dear sony,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a guard and a monk.  Right now they are the pretty much equal and I see no imbalance.  Please try to understand that some guardians are used to being gods on their servers.  I have played a guard to 50 and it was to easy.  They duoed with a templar could fight amazing things pre patch.  Now there is some actual challenge.  I know that you want to make the fighter archetype do their base jobs equally in a different way and I applaud you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  The only thing I would like to add is that Guards do lack just a smidgen in utility.  Most guardians don't see as guarding others as their utility, however I feel that soon, this ability may be more appreciated when raiding.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>thank you sony,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I agree. I'm perfectly happy with the changed. I've played my Guardian since the day EQ2 went live, and I'm happier now than I've ever been. /shrug</P> <P>Sure I'd like a hair more DPS, but honestly, I don't see any big problems at all... and a lot of improvements. </P>

[Edyil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR><SPAN>It's difficult to give a response that will alleviate everyone's concerns, but I can tell you that we're looking for good feedback like this to ensure that all classes are fun and desirable. Keep giving us feedback, and we'll keep listening. If changes need to be made, they will be. Thanks for keeping things constructive. The more constructive feedback we get (preferably with tangible evidence rather than just perception-based opinions), the better.<BR></SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Speaking as a Guardian, I'm coping.  The revamp hit us harder that most other classes.  Let me sum up my "perception-based opinions" on what the revamp did for(to) us.  <BR><BR><B>The Bad:</B><BR></SPAN> <UL> <LI><SPAN>We lost both absolute tanking ability and relative tanking ability versus other fighters.  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>We lost 3 of our 7 pre-revamp taunts.   Just gone. <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>The remaining taunts were nerfed heavily.  (e.g. Protect, although it has a shorter recast time and does smaller taunt as a result, had it's stifle component removed which, in addition to actually being useful, accounted for about half the taunt of the spell to begin with.)  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Our damage CA's were all nerfed significantly, except for blast, which does double the damage it did pre-revamp with twice the recast time.  People see you do a 1K hit once every minute and think you can actually DPS decently.  </SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Cleave, our level 42 DoT, now does the same damage at Master I that an adept I level Maim did in our late-20's.  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN></SPAN><SPAN>Our self-only haste spell is gone, and with haste items no longer stacking we now attack significantly slower than we used to.  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Our long-range pulling/slow spell is gone.  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Our old 30-second battle buff has had it's aggro-generation nerfed to heck.  Gone are the days when a train of several encounters could come in and we could see them all turn towards us when we cast this spell.  We now have to taunt them individually to actually get aggro, and if we do that everybody using implied targetting on us will break any mez's the enchanter is trying to land, etc..  (People refuse to assist a scout for some silly reason)  I know wind up watching mobs I could pull with one taunt beat the tar out of my healer while an enchanter tries to land a mez.  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Our other buffs no longer help us generate hate either due to their toggled nature and 1-minute recast.   (We have to drop them for a minute to recast them for aggro, and they don't seem to generate as much hate as they used to anyways)  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>We've lost about 2/3 of our ability to buff HP.  </SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>We are the most defensive sub-class of the most defensive class in the fighter tree who specializes in standing there and getting hit, and fighters from the most offensive sub-class of the most offensive class in the fighter tree who specialize in nimbly avoiding hits now have higher base HP than us.  It's not much, but why?  There's no practical in game reason for the tiny difference it ammounts to.  It makes no sense. It just feels like a slap in the face.  I'd call this a matter of perception really, but perception is *important*. <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Our defense buff, which was once our finest buff by far, now adds only a couple percent avoidance.   We barely even notice if it's down, whereas before we knew immediately if it dropped because suddenly we'd get our arses handed to us.</SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Kite shields half the size of our massive tower shields are now functionally equivalent.  Come on!  Just a *tiny* bonus for something twice as large?  It makes no sense, and feels like a nerf targetted specifically at us even if it hit bezerkers too. <BR></SPAN></LI></UL><BR><B>The Good: </B>(sorta)<BR> <UL> <LI><SPAN>We did get one new taunt, and it is a nice one, but it definately has its drawbacks.  It's the only thing that allows us to hold aggro currently.  It's not a nice new bonus ability, but a necessary replacement to all the other, more easily used taunts we had before.  We constantly have to toggle it off and on (draining power) to re-position ourselves in a fight.  Tanks *have* to move in combat.  Telling over_nuking_wizard_001 to move that mob over beside you because you're rooted just doesn't work.  The nuisance factor to holding aggro has gone *way* up, and we've actually gotten worse at it.  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>We got a new 30 second mitigation buff, sort of.  (It replaced our long-range pulling/slow spell)  Besides having a 3 minute recast time, it lowers our DPS and, ergo, our taunt, *and* roots us.   If we use it and lose aggro we then have to click off *two* buffs that are rooting us before we can go save over_nuking_wizard_001.  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Rescue has been improved significantly, but it's recast is still long enough that we tend to avoid casting it unless somebody is literally dying.  Other classes get it anyways.</SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>They *finally* fixed our damage intercept abilities.  These are nice, but I'd call it a bug-fix rather than a class improvement.  This should have been done within weeks of release.  <BR></SPAN></LI> <LI><SPAN>Our group-mate (can't be used on self) avoidance buffs have finally been fixed.  (Again, this should have been done a long time ago.)  The way they work, other classes don't really notice any difference we provide though.   Nothing shows up in their profile and they don't receive any messages as far as I know.   One has an aggro-reduction component on it, which is actually nice.  </SPAN></LI></UL>This is my "perception" of the revamp.  I still have fun playing the game, but I'm still getting used to working a lot harder to do a lot less.  The only way I have *any* fun at all is to completely forget the class I used to play.  It's gone now.   I know we were probably a tad overpowered before, but now we feel like we're just the opposite.  I'm sure others can post parsed logs, etc.. and quibble over stats, but please don't just dismiss "preception-based opinions" as useless.  They matter.  How the class *feels* matters.  How we perceive our own class and how others perceive it *matters*.  Perception is as important as reality, if not more so in a game like this.  <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You wont get fixed by comparing yourself to the old NON-EXISTANT system.  Get it?  It's gone.  Let it go.  Tell them about your class as it is now and what makes it not worth playing as it relates to the new/modified content.  Living in the past will not get you any changes for the future.</P>

[HairyDustBall]

Being a wizard I understand where the Guardians are coming from, I picked Wizard because wizard/warlock was supose to be top DPs and with no abilty to tank or take a hit.  Soloing should be bit harder since I have a high chance of being 1 -2 hit but in groups I should be the choice for DPS becuase its the only role I play.  I see Guardians at the otherend of the scale the are Supose to give up dps and utility makeing soloing slower and being able to fill only the role of Tank in a group but do it the best.  Right now guardian is not much better at tanking as other warrior classes and has nothing else to offer so they are gimped compared to other classes.  Please give the Guardians something to make them worth being picked a little extra mit would go a long way.

[BostonFNO]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>I don't know where all this hostility is coming from. I'm not here on the boards as much as some of you. I have never said anything bad about any other class on their forums. Hell, I never even look at the other class forums unless they are linked to from a dev tracker. I don't know what the problems you were facing for the last few months were. I don't play any of the other classes and the game takes up too much time as it is to worry about 23 other skill sets. I'm sorry you guys have had problems like this. I would not wish them on anyone. Will you all please put aside your animosity toward us for whatever advantages we have had over others in the past? I didn't ask for any advantages over anyone else and I'm not asking for any now. I don't know how all the dps numbers or game mechanics work like some of you. I'm not into that aspect of the game. AlI I do know is that playing the guardian class now is so boring. I'm not seeing any of the increased DPS you guys are talking about. The only way it appears I do<EM> any</EM> damage is to spam my skills until all my power is gone almost immediately. I shouldn't have to do that. It takes forever to kill things and that is if I can kill it. I'm running away now way too often. Fighter mobs are stunning me too much, mage mobs are nuking me too hard and healer mobs will heal their friends before I can stop them. I can't kill anything quick enough. Heaven forbid I get an add!  At this rate it would take me a year to level up fighting thing like this. <STRONG>If paladins are doing even less damage than us than they are even worse off and I don't even want to think about how slow it must be for them.</STRONG> I'm sure that is the reason my paladin guild mates have been playing with their alts all week instead. Whatever the devs vision is for the game and our classes I know it doesn't include making the game boring for any of us. I have faith that they will make things fun again but can we please stop flaming each other and try to help each other out instead. We are all in this together after all.</FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Vandileir]

<DIV> <DIV>I have seen a few threads now with some great feed back. Again, I am going to disregard any comments from crusader/brawler archetypes, since they don't appear to be paying attention to what the real problem is IMO. I dont care that I am not the best anymore, I hated raid tanking anyway. Just give me something to make my class feel useful. It's all in the feel, and right now, especially soloing, it feels like just a slug fest with the mob. Not that its any better in groups. All I do is MD and back it up with my excuses for taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will go into some of the more technical changes I would like to see, though I expect nothing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. At first I thought the re-use timers on taunts were to high. However, I think they would not be an issue if they were not resisted. I guess this really only pertains to the group taunt. Lets say its a 4 mob group. 3 out of 4 resist it, and its a full re-use timer again. I might as well have used a single taunt and saved the power. At least if the single taunt got resisted, its a fast re-use.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. Mitigation. Our claim to fame is mitigation you say? Yes, and maybe it is better. But not enough to be a class defining trait anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Utility. We have not much except a Defensive Buff bot and poor substitute for a real DPS class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. Protection skills, although the hate reduction one is nice, are still generally lame. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Theres nothing unique to us anymore. Nothing that makes us desired. It was a rough road to the 40's, and it was only around then, that Guardians started coming into there own. Now I feel like I am level 30 again. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can solo, but if I get ANY add, I am as good as dead, even if I run usually.</DIV> <DIV>Sure, I can DPS, in my attack stance, when someone else is tanking and the mobs back is to me. Even then, the monk that is tanking the mob face to face out damages me with his defensive stance on.</DIV> <DIV>So I have higher mitigation. Not by much, and it certainly does not seem to make a worth while difference.</DIV> <DIV>So I potentially can have higher HP. Does me no good when I cant kill a mob before it kills me because my mitigation doesnt make up for the lack of DPS.</DIV> <DIV>So I can have a tower shield on. So? It's no better than a kite shield now. And zerkers can use them as well, and do more DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean really, we do not stand out in any way. If I didnt have an amazing guild, I would not get groups I believe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our one claim to fame was deemed over powered, and now the other tanks are just as good at it. And if that is the logic, my DPS is not as good as a Monks/Bruiser, please either nerf them, or change guards to make equivelant enough that they do not stand out in that aspect anymore. Would that be balanced then?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>News flash. I didnt pick a different tank because I wanted to be pure mitigation based. I picked a Guardian because I wanted to sacrifice DPS for Mitigation. And I wanted excellent hate control (And though we can still get the job done it is mind numbingly boring and tedious). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now I am still sacrificing DPS and the Mitigation difference is just no longer worth it IMO. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I just cant help but feel shafted after the revamp. The one thing I used to bring to the table is a joke compared to how it used to be. And its dishearhtening. At least with all the hits that were made to my Troub, he got things in return. My Guadrian got nothing in return, except protect skills that may actually work, though I think there still lame in the grand scheme of things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont care about being the best, just give me something so I can make a difference again.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Vandileir on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:37 AM</span>

[blueduckie]

<DIV>1. Guardians still tank raid for the few VERY few guidls attemtping raids atm because it is all they know and are used to. Mostly they are crossign fingers hoping it is the best. Look at threads much? Took a guild 6 priests to keep mt up on Drayek. King friggen Drayek. Once adds popped they were owned. Now I am sure people will have to get a little better but that is not much more they can change there. Healers have long recasts now so i dont doubt that they couldnt have done it with less with out beign full fabled.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2. DPS is DPS stop talking about [Removed for Content] dps if you made a guardian for more dps or something please reroll. Our dps is fine it is over all fine. Mobs die faster in general woopty friggen do it doesnt effect our main role.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3. Scouts tank as well as we do. Just went ahead and let a ranger tank in my last group because he got hit hardly any more and even avoided as much to more as I. Ranger had no fabled armor only weapons. I am half fabled. Pretty crappy IMO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4. I maybe missed it but i dont see guardians just saying f crusaders etc boost guardians. Least I havnt. I think guardian mit should be highest of all period but i think ALL plate classes need a 10-20% mitigation boost. I also think mitigation cap should be raised to 90% for plate classes and 70% for leather classes. Make it where both are reachable and you dont have as big of a problem because caps will take care of itself. Neither should be easily obtainable. Plate tanks should have a avoidance cap as should brawlers and it should be higher than ours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Get sick of hearing tanking is alright because go raid for yourself on some old content and youll see it isnt ok. Id like to a single one of you brawlers to conveince your guild to try Darathar with how tanking is atm. I am sure some of you have some 54+ tanks in your guilds go try it. Then come back here when MITIGATION tanks are 1 shotted with our UBER 30 second buffs on. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DoF raiding isnt going to be much better. Especially when most of there testing was done with t6 fabled and masters. They need to fix the mitigation soon. It is way to low. HP or Mitigation need to go up. I prefer mitigation since it is more of a long term fix. HP just leaves more cushin for the pushin. Again I dont care if you think guardians are fine or just need utility because you are wrong from this actual GUARDIAN point of view. I am not a over the top guardians need to tank all if you knew my guild we have others tank all the time especially let them tank over me anytime i can. However i dont want th guardian class broken and undermined being a poor excuse of a tank if you are happy with how your class tanks fine but we obviously arnt and a gm even responding shows they are aware everything isnt ok. So if you like tanking like you are you obviously deserve to stay where your at. Utility doesnt solve guardians problems are utility is fine. The aggro redcution and protection lines are plenty. We need what we were built for...tanking with mitigation as main source.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also you need to stop comparing these xp mobs for dps parses and crap. When i trio lvl 55-57 mobs with a inq guardian necro combo they die in about 30 seconds. Thats hardly enough time for a good parse. Normally parse 180ish on them drops about 30 dps every additional 30 seconds on ^^^'s and normally will end up around 100 dps on a 2+ min fight in offensive stance as defense stance is a waste on xp mbos withhow low mitigation already is and how much avoidance is only thing that matters atm vs mobs.</DIV><p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 AM</span>

[Thanous]

I agree with the first post.  It isn't so much that we suck or some other no-thought/knee-jerk reaction.  It is just that a guardian doesn't seem special in any way.  I don't see what we do that is special.  Maybe it is there, and we are just not seeing it.  Maybe we are not seeing it the same way the devs see it.  But it seems that no one playing a guardian sees it now.  I started a guardian so that I could be a wall of meat to protect my group.  I'm no longer feel on par with other classes in this role.  We have no tricks to bring to grouping or soloing that makes me feel like someone should play a guardian. <div></div>

[Belgor]

<DIV>My point as a crusader was not that guardians might not need a slight mitigation increase och whatever, cause I have no idea realy, those problems between classes wont show itself for me until lvl 60 and raiding realy starts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was just commenting on the reasons that the OP brought up about why the increase was needed. The reason is not valid if the reason is flawed, and claiming to be at the bottom of the stack in several areas and thus needing a boost is not realy fair to other classes when its not true.</DIV>

[Kell]

<DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>If the goal of the combat revamp was to equalize tanking ability, I say…<STRONG>bravo!</STRONG>  </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>You have.<SPAN>  </SPAN>There is no noticeable difference between our (Guardian) ability to tank and other fighter classes.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Fighting yellow/orange heroics in group with a Pally, Zerker, Monk, or Guard tanking has exactly the same “feel” for the group. (I have not grouped with other tank classes since revamp).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Which leads me to my question.<SPAN>  </SPAN>What does make our class unique?<SPAN>  </SPAN>If the “high” mitigation we get has no tangible or even measurable effect on the game….who cares?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I had thought as defensive tanks our mitigation and lack of offensive abilities would be reflected in better healer efficiency.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I am not talking about group efficiency, just healer efficiency. Obviously higher DPS tanks would kill the mobs more quickly…...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Is this guardian biased thinking? I really don’t know.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Is the intent to have our group damage/avoidance skills (like Vigilance or Guardian Sphere) give us a distinction from the other fighters?<SPAN>   </SPAN>Maybe these are intended to be our “utility” skills.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>If this is the case then I am disappointed.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The Vigilance line causes the mob to do an avoidance check on us after the target to see if our group member gets hit.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Is this for real?<SPAN>  </SPAN>Do I have and avoidance check?<SPAN>  </SPAN>It sure doesn’t feel like it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Guardian Sphere gives us a chance to absorb all the damage a group member might take.<SPAN>  </SPAN>This would be suicidal in raid situations…. particularly since our hit points are more precious than ever.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I guess I just don’t understand what tangible value I am bringing to the group.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If this is what it was really like for other tank classes than I feel for you, I really do.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>…and I can totally understand why you would “celebrate” our demise.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>However, I think that the “leveling of the tanking field” has left us without a clearly specialized function.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The unique abilities of our class (mitigation/protection) do not have any impact on the game.</FONT></P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I can still tank.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I can still provide leadership to the group.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I am not broken…..but I ask you…..what can I take pride in as a Guardian? <SPAN> </SPAN>Why is it fun to be me?</FONT></SPAN></DIV>

[thargnar]

<DIV> <DIV>THe ramblings of an insane dorf follow:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My impressions as a 51 (nonraiding) guard,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>DPS: Just fine. I can kill solo mobs when i need to, it isnt fast, but its dependable and I dont soil my pants if a root breaks. I dont parse, but it feels like I kill more quickly than i did before as well, as long as the mob doesnt require too many cycles of my abilities. I personally like tanks doing squat damage compared to dps type classes anyway, gives groups a reason to consist of more than tank/healer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation: Casters die a little faster than I do when they take the aggro, which I have occasionally given them purely out of scientific curiosity. Really, it feels fine, I sweat more quite often, but Im taking on much higher level mobs for the most part and it feels fine. I do feel that I rely on buffs pretty heavily though to avoid a constant dirtnap. The main drawback to this is that when I need those buffs to survive a fight, invariably I am stunned before I can get them off it seems. Compared to other plate classes, about the same and a little better, just enough that I usually wind up MT and the zerker does the fun part while I threaten the nuker with bodily harm.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Avoidance: Much lower than before of course, but I like how much diff a shield makes overall now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The shield thing: At first, I was royally horked off, now I am resigned and somewhat pleased. Horked off because I now have a pristine imbued cedar piece of vendor trash, pleased because my sbs has better stat bonuses and looks hella sexier. How I hate the little man behind a wooden fridge door look.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parry/Block: No real input there, no parser and I dont stare at the combat window but overall I seem to be defending myself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunts: It does seem harder to maintain aggro. If I have a group that holds off on the whammies until i get all my taunts off and hit a few times with maddening def, it goes pretty well, but there are inexplicable times when a zerker peels it off me supposedly with no taunts or a dps class nukes a bit hard etc, and when I lose it, i HAVE to use rescue. Occasionally I can get it back if I happen to have all taunts ready, but usually its rescue time, and if its a caster they will be dead by the time I try to futilely spam my taunts while saving rescue for the *real* emergency.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stun/Stifle/Interrupt: I sorely miss my stifle on protect, but im learning to live without it. Id like more stuns, but wouldnt we all? Im happy with what we have, I still get to chime in on the stun bandwagon when we are trying to keep a mob permastunned before it stuns the crap outta us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heals/wards/FD/invis/stealth/evac: That would be silly, Id be dangerously close to a pally, and then how could i continue making merciless fun of my guildie pallys?/our protection line does this to a slight extent, but not well enough for caster shielding/FD is for wussies/so is invis/and stealth/and especially evac, Die like a man, and *then* beg a caster to invis you back to your snow angel like a little girl.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those are pretty much my impressions, now as to my suggestions.</DIV> <DIV>Mit/Avoidance: I would rather have more mitigation and less avoidance. The guardian was supposed to be the uber plodding turtle of the tank class. Everything should be balanced I agree, on average a guard and a monk should lose the same percentage of hp throughout a fight, one through constant but minor attrition, and the other through sporadic but damaging blows. On the constant reliance of mit buffs, thats okay, but for the love of all that is holy, make them uninterruptable. Stuns stifles etc can kill my active taunts, combat arts etc, but if i need to rely on buffs as part of my mitigation, a necessary part, then please make them go off when I need them, I only get them for a very limited time, and if they are not there then, hello dirt. Someone else mentioned it, since we arent the avoid based tanks, we are getting a lot of the effects of mob combat arts even if we are mitigating the damage, and stun seems to be a favorite one. Not *my* favorite one mind you. In fact, it ranks right behind [Removed for Content] knockback, which nothing should ever have in the bastion of flames... *grumble grumble stupid mob's tellurian whatsit pet grumble stupid lava grumble*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The shield thing: I think all tank classes, heck all classes, should be able to use all shields. Now, I would like all shields to have different effects. Tower shield could have highest block, but slow you down or decrease your defence to sides and rear, kite would have lesser block but not so much negative impact as tower, etc. Balance them out, make some abilities (caster spells, swash swashyness) unusable with certain shield types equipped etc, but let everyone pick up what they want and introduce more STYLES. I would personally love a norman teardrop shaped kite shield as opposed to the heater style. And dont get me started on different shield textures and heraldic devices, I just hope thats in the pipe at least.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parry/block: Like i mentioned, no parser, and I havent paid much attention, so ill let others put thier input here since Im not 100 percent on what its doing now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunts: Faster reuse on rescue. 5 minutes maybe, or make it less required by giving us an addition to maddening def that procs a bit of hate when *we* hit as well. It really sucks holding hate on mobs that arent hitting you for some reason. When mentoring I was actually tanking naked, so I could hold the aggro better. I did look pretty studly though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stuns/stifle etc: no comment, im fine with what we have, the bare minimum is all that is necessary, leave the fancy stuff for the assassins, swashes etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protection line: Here is where I would like to see the most improvement. Assuage and Vigilance are tons better than they were before, but still not too hot. I put one or both on a caster, yeah assuage helps him not draw the aggro, which i do like, but if he takes aggro, from a wandering add or whatever, SPLAT, those extra dodges dont do squat for casters other than give them false hope or mabye a couple more seconds of screaming like a girl if they are *really* lucky. Guardian sphere doesnt seem to work wonders for me either, what I would like to see is more buffs/abilites that lend themselves to protecting others, the SK has something cool like that, grant of armament i think, where they sacrafice mit and give it to someone else, that sounds a *lot* like what we should have from reading the original class description. Or something really nifty like a group buff, you toss it on and anyone immediately behind you and directly away from the mob gets your mitigation/avoid but has to be far enough behind you that they cant get melee attacks off. Wouldnt help with adds, but would be great for AOE problems. I like the idea of the guard not necessarily being MT but assisting the MT in adding def to him and keeping his nukers alive. Really, the class name even implies that, but until now, and especially before when everyone said guard was THE MT, all we were mainly guarding was our own pucker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, Im sure there are typos and spelling errors above, it's early and I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed. if anyone has issue with the package instead of the contents and feels like wasting a post about the proper use of Mr. Period and the horrers of the RunOnSentence, please start a brand new thread titled Grammer [Removed for Content] and post there till your black little English Major heart is content. On the other hand, meaningful discussion and constructive criticism is welcome. Cheetos and a beer would be more welcome, but until Beer Over Internet Protocol is develeped Im probably out of luck.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ah, it strikes me that I should mention a little more about my perspective before i hit submit, I have no fabled gear, mostly ebon or legendary quested gear, and all tuants with about half a dozen CAs at adIII, maddening def the masterII training ofc. Took all the hp buffs for race etc, and the def bonus for being a dorf. Pretty much about as average as you can get for a 51 at the moment i believe.</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by thargnar on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:10 AM</span>

[RandomPlay]

<DIV><STRONG>Blackguard,</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Thank you for the response here on the Guard boards.  Glad to see they are being read.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>To the constructive posters - whether you agree or not,</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Thank you for the additional info, perceived or parsed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>To those who have pointed out errors or missing facts from the OP, in a positive (or only mildly insulting :smileywink: ) manner,</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>As I stated in the OP I was "<EM>going from memory and in some cases hearsay, so please feel free to correct any of these</EM>", so I say thanks for the info on Pallies - I wasn't aware of it.  Also, the intention wasn't to compare pre/post LU13 specs, as they are irrelevant - no argument there.  The point was that there is little to no reason to choose to play a guard today if you are a new player starting out.  Based on the info added above, I would say it's not as lopsided as I originally described, but I do still feel the same - I think the vast majority of informed players (not all) would rather start any other fighter type before starting a Guard if they started playing today at level 1, and I think if all fighters were given the option to keep playing as their current class or to /respec to any other fighter class, that more Guards would leave their class than any other fighter subclass.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>To those concerned about plate mitigation overall,</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>/agree</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>To those who have tried to turn this into another flamefest,</STRONG></DIV> <DIV>Bite me. I never said I wanted to be the best tank, let alone a "god."  The argument that Guards are getting what they deserved because they used to be the be-all end-all MT as some sort of revenge for the last 10 months is juvenile.  All classes should have been balanced at release - that's Sony's fault, not the Guards in the game or mine.  All classes should be balanced today - again, up to Sony to do it.  If a class has an advantage relative to similar classes in one area, it should be offset by a disadvantage in another area.  No class should be the best at everything, including Guards - that's not what I was asking (or whining) for.  If a class is underpowered - whether that class is SK, Pally, Guard, or Monk - it should be fixed.  I don't get how you can turn "we should all be balanced" into "why do you want to be the best?" /bah</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- RP</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by RandomPlayer on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:16 AM</span>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Drulak wrote: <P>Where in my post did i say that ?? i was answering Gaige who said our DPS has improved. I was saying it has gone down. I no where compared it to other fighter classes , so i am glad you can insinuate that from nothing.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do not care whether we are now all in line with other tanks - i was just saying we have not had our DPS go up.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>You're wrong.  Your dps has gone up.  I don't play a guard, but I do group with some from time to time and we normally run parses.  That along with other guards citing a dps increase and your own admission of not caring about hard numbers leads me to believe you are misinformed or obvlious.<BR> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:55 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>our dps has gone up yes but parse some other classes if you want to see dps...</P> <P>For example our bruiser was parsing at a good 600 dps last night, our assassin hit 800 dps, our warlocks are still doing a solid 600 or so (not on single targets).  And me oh I'm about 250 (with coercer dps buff and fury Damage shields) or so, is this too high well compared to other classes I'd say no.</P> <P>You want to talk about overpowered classes let's talk about coercers and their ability to pretty much perma root a triple up yellow heroic and thats right solo it, now is that fair?  Or being able to mezz about 5 of them at once?  Oh let's not even bring necromancers into the equation but we got one who can send his pet onto a triple up yellow giant and addtank it while the MT pummels away at the other one, and guess what the pet does tank a +++ yellow fairly well, is that balanced?  I haven't even had a chance to look at wizards, rangers, brigands, so on but I can guarantee you a well geared anything in any of these classes can out dps a fighter.</P> <P>Guardians do have good dps, but let's not cry bloody murder just yet, look at some number for other dps classes and you'll see they're still out dps'ing guardians by far.  As far as I'm concerned there are several other classes that need a good nerfing before they even mess with guardians even further.</P>

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <DIV>correction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins have the worst avoidance of any tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Paladins have the worst mitigation of any plate tank</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I duel Guards all the time and i might win 6 out of 10</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have wards and heals, but if they get interrupted im in trouble.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If I have to use my LOH dueling with guards then i dont have much of an advantage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All in all, i dont see what guards are crying about. Guess what, palys were buff and rez bots for the 1st 10 months of this game. if your going to get a point across, at least contrast it. I agree that PLATE tanks need more mitigation or avoidance, but to say the sky is falling on guards is melodramatic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing that happened is that the Guard is not as overpowered as he used to be. Guess what, welcome to no-guard tanking that the rest of us had to deal with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you're mortal now..deal with it. Its not just you that needs a little help. All plate tanks need a little love.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>YOU DO NOT HAVE THE WORST AVOIDANCE. Palys have the worst avoidance, mitigation, and health points. Thats what our heals counter. They are not utility, since out DPS is the same as yours.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>lt's true that paladins have same problems as guardians have here. As I have posted before, all plate tanks need more base mitigation and base avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Schmak]

Over all Im Loving the combat Changes. Well Done SOE Only gripe is the short duration/ long recast on Anchor and Wall of Flesh Line of spells. Also i think we and every class get stunned way too much even by greenies. More HPs for Guardain would be nice too this this adjustment went a little overboard. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Answer this one question then</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do gaurdians still main tank raids?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Answer is Guardians are still the best tank. Until i start seeing rading guilds preferring Brawlers instead of Guards to tank raids i am going to have to call B.S. on the fact bruisers are tanking better overall then guards. The fact is every guild still uses guardians to tank because they do tank better. No guild would ever use a less adequate tank to tank raids. Especially now when epics are immensily harder then what they were previously. Why would a guild use a fighter who tanked worse. </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue most gaurds ar ecomplaing about is they group/solo ability is less then other fighters and WAY less then Casters.</DIV> <DIV> <P>Soe can increase a guards solo/grouping utility/tanking w/o increasing your raid tankign as much and here is soem ideas: </P> <DIV>I think guards need more utility NOT increased tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>back on topic Guards need more utility to not only make thier class fun, but solo better as well. Lets list some idea's</DIV> <P>Stun/stilfe proc on offensive stance this will help soloing and small groups immensily, but prolly offer no value in epic since epics are immune to most stun/stifle procs. a stun proc on offesnive stance will reduce damage taken and reduce the amount of times gaurds get stunend by npc's since they can't stun you while they are stunned.</P> <P>Most classes have a long reuse class defining skill what should a guards skill be.</P> <P>How about guards getting a Tsunami type skill (like the new monk) but this skill should riposte taunts not damage. Why well just like eq1 the first 15 secs of the raid are the hardest part. This skill would not only allow a gaurd to survive but also generate agro. So the debuffers can do thier job and slow/debuff the mob so you cna actually survive an epics mobs massive autoattack damage.</P> <P> maybe add a long reuse shield line that blocks the next DD spells. This will give shields added use in raids. say once every 15 min</P> <P>How about a new pull ability to replace anchor a long range stifle atk requiring a bow that works on epics. a stifle on an epic mob will give you time to pull a mob w/o havign that mob nuke you before you return to group.</P> <P>these are the type of utiliies guards need not 1000+ mititgation or avodiance then other fighters peopel need to think outside the box. You will take less damage with more utility type effects. The difference in mitgation/avoid is relatively small where as gaurds have more mitgation and brawlers more avoid. The fact is you need more utility to make the gaurd class actually skillful and fun to play. Askign to be the best tank will still leave you as a dull button smashing class that takes no skill in timing short duration buffs or using effects correctly. GUARDS NEED UTILITY.</P> <P> </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:40 AM</span>

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Shouldn't it read:</P> <P>Dear Sony,</P> <P>Guardians are in-line now compared to other fighters, it sucks.  I wish we were still the 100% best tank despite the scenario.  I hate having to actually try to control aggro and the thought that a fighter who didn't choose guardian might actually be able to tank.</P> <P>I mean come on, to read some of these threads it sounds like <FONT color=#ff0000>you guys can't solo gray down arrow mobs</FONT>, can't tank for a group and are just absolutely worthless.</P> <P>All of which I know aren't true, since we have plenty of guardians in guild grinding away the xp.</P> <P>Go figure.</P> <P>Oh, and your DPS got a nice increase, to about crusader level from the guild parses I've seen.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>09-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Gaige, did you think you actually play a guardian and you can solo gray mobs?</P> <P>Or what I am missing here, is that you don't have logic at all?</P> <P>Go roll a guardian and level to 50, then you can come and review what you are saying.</P> <P>I have both level 50 berserker and 50 guardian. Both of them have been nerfed badly. Lots of gray mobs can kill me and have killed me after the patch.<BR></P>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Answer this one question then</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why do gaurdians still main tank raids?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Answer is Guardians are still the best tank. Until i start seeing rading guilds preferring Brawlers instead of Guards to tank raids i am going to have to call B.S. on the fact bruisers are tanking better overall then guards. The fact is every guild still uses guardians to tank because they do tank better. No guild would ever use a less adequate tank to tank raids. Especially now when epics are immensily harder then what they were previously. Why would a guild use a fighter who tanked worse. </DIV></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GUARDS NEED UTILITY.</DIV> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:40 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Alright I'm going to explain this to you one last time and hopefully you get it. You can not tank as good as a guardian because you as a brusier "Rely on your physical force to basically pummell your opponent into the ground" Now that kinda sounds like dps to me, in fact I believe you could probably parse around 700 dps or so if you play it right because thats what our bruiser does.  Let me say this if you had 700 dps and could tank a raid like a guardian I'd say your nuts and I would be in your forum screaming bloody murder like you are in here, I'm sorry but because your offenseive based you will NEVER tank a raid as efficiently as a defensive based guardian, who's basically designed as a raid MT with their buff setup, mitigation, and so on.  And as far as "less adequate" tanks tank raid well if you we're a proffesional racer and you had a corvette, a ferrarri, and a ford pinto would you race the ford pinto? I don't think so.  Defensive tanks will always tank raids because of the simple fact you need someone who can efficiently manage a massive onslaught of damage, not someone who can "phisically maul" a mob to death with their dps, instead of you physically thrashing that mob, that epic mob will physically thrash you, that's how it is and should be.</P> <P>Guardians can solo fine, people are complaining that they can't solo heroic mobs, as far as I'm concerned they shouldn't because they're heroic, I solo yellows in silent city (who /gasp cast spells and heal) all the time, I'm yet to die in there, we're fine there.  As far as groups yes I lose aggro, yes I die, but who doesn't.  We have utility, its just half of it is not used properly.<BR></P>

[sylvo]

<div></div>Just quit trying to reply to gaiges posts. They are non constructive and laden with sarcasm and exaggeration. To the person who asked why guardians are still raid MT's for most guilds at the moment. I have 2 answers. 1. The guilds are used to dealing with a guardian MT. They are comfortable with it. Change is hard so they stick to what they know. 2. 95% of Guardians have always wanted to play the MT role. As such their equipment and specialisation choices and spell upgrades have all been geared towards this goal. Bruisers previously (and a lot still do) have respecced offensively, chosen their gear and combat arts allowing them to do more dps. I hope that answers your question. Farhane. Edited for P.S. : I dont want any [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] utility, just let me tank better damnit. Im not asking for more avoidance - leave that to the pyjama wearers - just make plate count for something. Thanks. <div></div><p>Message Edited by sylvore on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 PM</span>

[Gungo]

Thats fine thats exactly what i meant Guardians Currently tank better then all other fighter classes hence guardians do not need an increase in tankign ability. And to the person who said guards geared themselves to tank beilive me i cna find plenty of links of brawlers fulyl geared in fabled that are geared toward tanking. And liek i said i highly doubt guilds would hold on to preconcieved notions of gaurd as best tank if a brawler would tank better, especially now that raids are so much harder. The FACT is GUARDIANS DO TANK BETTER. and for guardinas to ask to tank any better then they do currently is basically asking that all other fighter suck in comaprison and that is unbalanced. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>p.s. and BTW shizzirri i know the answer you don't have to be sarcastic. quoting flavor text has already been stated by the developers as useless since it holds no meaning like it or nto brawlers are tanks. My point just like you have stated guards currently tank better and alot of guardians believe they are not which is false.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:19 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 AM</span>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>Thats fine thats exactly what i meant Guardians Currently tank better then all other fighter classes hence guardians do not need an increase in tankign ability. And to the person who said guards geared themselves to tank beilive me i cna find plenty of links of brawlers fulyl geared in fabled that are geared toward tanking. And liek i said i highly doubt guilds would hold on to preconcieved notions of gaurd as best tank if a brawler would tank better, especially now that raids are so much harder. The FACT is GUARDIANS DO TANK BETTER. and for guardinas to ask to tank any better then they do currently is basically asking that all other fighter suck in comaprison and that is unbalanced. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Alright you can "tank" as good as a guardian if you lose 75% of your dps, deal?</P> <P>And I seriously don't know why your complaining because this last update made bruisers hella uber in terms of dps and tanking, I'd say your just as good if not better than guardians at tanking, maybe not epic encounters but again raid leaders are used to guardians, guardians are defensive based brusiers are offensive based.  </P>

[Gungo]

haha you are funny first you said guards are bttter at tanking then you state brawlers are as good as tanks. Which is it because i am hard pressed to see where brawerls are better like i said show me where the brawler is preferred in raids. You are correct though guards are bette rin raids why. Well all that extra utility othe rfighters get do nto compensate for the guards tanking. Solution since guards alreayd have increased tankign over everyone else.increase guardians solo/grouping to be on par w other fighters. Increasing pure tanking only widens an already exsisting gap between brawlers and gaurds. That my friend is unblanced. I am asking for guards to gain utility to compensate in areas guards lack. Guards are either asking to nerf other classes or increase abilites in areas they already are superior. further unblancing classes

[Gungo]

<DIV>One final question what does Defense do?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know its not just avodiance like many percieve it to be but it does increase your ability to tank in other ways.</DIV> <DIV>Guardians have a higher defense still when buffed. So looking at just mititgation and avodiance is kinda of skewing the argument.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>10:28 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:28 AM</span>

[sylvo]

Would people mind if warlocks/wizards thought they werent doing enough damage in comparison with other classes. Why should it be any different when looking at plate tanks/guardians at the other end of the scale. The point is brawlers are at the more offensive side of the spectrum in comparison (significantly so), why should this not scale with defense also ? We arent asking for brawlers to get nerfed - we just dont think we are where we should be. Should Sorcerors be the only DPS = No. Should Sorcerors be the best DPS = Yes. Should we be the ONLY tanks = NO Should we be the best tanks = Yes. Farhane. <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>My point  sylvore is you are still the best tank. what guards are basically asking for is to be the only tank. </DIV> <DIV>the further you widen the tanking gap the less need/want for other tanks will exsist. as much as guard hype up other fighters dps it means nothing if i can't tank as well. Guards are still preferred in raids as the best tank. I am asking to give you utility to be comparable to other tanks in group/solo as well. that will be balnaced askign for increased tanking will screw every other fighter period.</DIV> <P>Edited <P>not to mention that increasing pure mitigation won't make a gaurdian any more exciting to play. You will still just stan din fornt of a mob bashing taunt hoping it works. i figured the combat arts i suggested would provide a lil more flair and excitement to a dull class. which is another major gaurd concern.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:41 AM</span>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Shouldn't it read:</P> <P>Dear Sony,</P> <P>Guardians are in-line now compared to other fighters, it sucks.  I wish we were still the 100% best tank despite the scenario.  I hate having to actually try to control aggro and the thought that a fighter who didn't choose guardian might actually be able to tank.</P> <P>I mean come on, to read some of these threads it sounds like <FONT color=#ff0000>you guys can't solo gray down arrow mobs</FONT>, can't tank for a group and are just absolutely worthless.</P> <P>All of which I know aren't true, since we have plenty of guardians in guild grinding away the xp.</P> <P>Go figure.</P> <P>Oh, and your DPS got a nice increase, to about crusader level from the guild parses I've seen.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>09-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:12 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Gaige, did you think you actually play a guardian and you can solo gray mobs?</P> <P>Or what I am missing here, is that you don't have logic at all?</P> <P>Go roll a guardian and level to 50, then you can come and review what you are saying.</P> <P>I have both level 50 berserker and 50 guardian. Both of them have been nerfed badly. Lots of gray mobs can kill me and have killed me after the patch.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Uh, I played a guard to 50, and I played a monk to 46.  Unless you can think of another excuse as to why gaige can't post here, I can assure you that he is not replying unreasonably.  This is a useless point really, just as it is probably useless for me to point out that I have played both characters.  You wanna be on top.  You can't.  Guardians are not on top anymore.  Again, I think utility would be a bit better, but hey, the protection lines are bad [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] abilities, once you figure out how to use them <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Btw, I am going to test some stuff out using 2 guardians and maybe show how the protection lines just may keep TWO guards in the main tanking group.  I mean, that's what our definitiion really said after all right??? Protect others??</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blackguard wrote:<BR><SPAN>It's difficult to give a response that will alleviate everyone's concerns, but I can tell you that we're looking for good feedback like this to ensure that all classes are fun and desirable. Keep giving us feedback, and we'll keep listening. If changes need to be made, they will be. Thanks for keeping things constructive. The more constructive feedback we get (preferably with tangible evidence rather than just perception-based opinions), the better.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>As a Guardian I thank you Blackgard.  I'll try and get some hard numbers to you.  Right now here is what I see.  If you want me to send you any specific data, please let me know.  And please don't let the trolls scare you off, us guardians have gotten rather use to them.  Please continue to read the constructive posts.</P> <OL> <LI><STRONG>Mitigation</STRONG> - Our mitigation seems to be a little low as compared to non-plate tanks.   </LI> <LI><STRONG>Aggro Management</STRONG> - in a one on one fight we are pretty good.  In a multiple mob fight we are not so good.   We lose aggro on secondary mobs fairly easy and have a tough time getting them back.  Rescue works well but the timer makes it a lot less usefull.  I think this problem stems from our HTL skill in that it requires us to be hit to fire off.</LI> <LI><STRONG>DPS</STRONG> - It's very close to what it should be, though with it being as low as it is and with our low mitigation, it makes solo'ing a chore.   Often leaving us in the red for health and with 50% power.</LI> <LI><STRONG>Avoidance</STRONG> - This is just about right.  As a plate tank we are right about where we should be.</LI> <LI><STRONG>HP</STRONG> - Our HP's is just about right.  Though with our lower mitigation it makes it tough to solo and tank group mobs.</LI></OL> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Landiin]

<DIV>Guys, just ignore Caige,<FONT color=#cc33cc> </FONT>sylvor and the other none guards. We listened to theme [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and cry for ever on our forum at that. They only come here and post what they do to get you [Removed for Content] off and off topic. Don't respond to them, they are just attention seekers. If you don't respond to what they do or say the they may go away. Kind of like a stray dog, if you don't feed it, it will go away or die.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have to agree with the OP. Even though I think we can still do our job, I do think we or the worst at doing it now. All we can do is post the facts and numbers. Post them here, post them there, be like gaige and post them every where.</DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Landiin on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:<div></div> <div>My point  sylvore is you are still the best tank. what guards are basically asking for is to be the only tank. </div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class="date_text">09-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:37 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Sorry but from my perspective thats not true.  Perhaps in the upper 5% of the playerbase where Guardains have had a year of being built up to be raid MT but at my level of gameplay im hardly the best tank around anymore nor do I think I should be.  But neither should any of the others, anyone that doesnt think that under the current combat system Guardian is the worse choice for small groups doesnt see the whole picture.  Can I do the job, sure...but my group(s) would be 2x better off with a Bruiser or a Crusador in my slot..  Niether my groupmates or I should have to feel that way...actually noone should which is where all this started i think, now its just a different subset of the playebase feeling that way...doesnt make it right. </span><div></div>

[Gungo]

You cna call me a troll raahl, but tel me where i am wrong and i will happily debate it with you or if i beilive i am wrong i will concede. That fact is no one has come up with a logical claim why gaurds still raid tank other then peopel don't like change. the fact is guards tank better. the fact is if guards do end up tanking even better then they do now other fighters will be less desired. Increasing areas where guards are already superior is unbalancing plain and simple. Tanking ability unlike scout dps can make or break a group. if a brawler dies the group wipes, if a scout does a bit less dps it will only take a few seconds longer to kill. That is the main issue. fighters need to tank comparable and at the moment we do with guards having an edge overall.

[Krooner]

<P>Sharl.   </P> <P>I know what your talking about.</P> <P>We have used this tactic in the past ourselves.</P> <P>One guardian parrying for the other and mitgating some damage.</P> <P>We have tried this both pre and post LU13.</P> <P>Heres the results.  A lot of healers dont like the OT to use the damage mit spell because he takes the full damage and he doesnt get to mit with his resists.</P> <P>You have the MT taking hits more often because of the gimped avoidance and mitigation.  Now you have your healers spreading their resources to 2 tanks.  With the drastic drop in our HP's were easily going from green to orange in a few hits.  And Yes with all group buffs up.</P> <P>Me 50% fabled 50% ebon.</P> <P>HP's 6K</P> <P>Group was: Guardian, Fury, Inquisitor, SK, Assasin, Warlock.</P> <P>Mob was a named in the Clefts cant remember which but was 52 heroic.</P> <P>Started with standard pull.  arrow shot using indium arrows.  damage around 500.</P> <P>deafen, protect, interupt, shield bash.  Fury casts porcipine.  Im anchored and in defensive stance.  He hits me once and I go low yellow right through the reactives.  I get a instant heal and boom he hits me to the orange.   </P> <DIV>If you play 2 guardian tactic its the same thing but now you have 2 tanks in the orange.  It looks like you need at least 2 or even 3 healers to keep the MT up anymore,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>I totally agree with you rafaelsmith. and thats why i proposed adding more utility and solo/group abilites to help guards be more desired.</P> <P>But you cna thank the guards in beta for how you turned out they wanted no utility no dps and nothign else but to tank better. And that is what you got an edge on tanking and not much else to offer.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:59 AM</span>

[Sithal]

<b>DPS:</b> Last night we were running some DPS numbers on the new Cobalt Greatsword I got.  The group I was in was Inquisitor, Coercer, Assassin, Wizard, Dirge, Guardian (me).  I was in offensive stance all night fighting ^ ^ ^ level 57 mobs.  My attack rating was 1114 with 315 strength.  Using just auto attack and a few taunts to keep agro on me throughout the course of the fight I was hitting anywhere from 175 - 220 dps depending on mobs stunning me etc.  Coercer was hasting me from time to time and I would hit low dps when stunned by the mob (vanquish sucks).  When I would go full on dps with combat abilities the max I hit was 351dps.  Most of my abilities are Adept 3 and a couple are Adept 1, no guardian masters have ever dropped for my guild. The assassin in our group was hitting around 200-250 dps with just auto attack and when he would go all out would hit around 550-600 dps.  He's currently wielding the dagger from maiden's gulch and prismatic dual-wield sword.  The wizard in the group would hit around 600 dps as well and I believe her int was around 311. <b>Here's my problems with Guardians (and possibly apply to more fighters than just us)</b> <b>Tanking / Stances:</b> When I wasn't on, our swashbuckler would tank the same mobs I was just about as well as I would.  This leads me to believe that mitigation and defense doesn't mean as much as it should.  I tank nearly as well with offensive stance on as without, on the other hand, I do similar damage in defensive but do miss a bit more.  These should be adjusted a bit more dramatically and be much more noticeable.  When you are tanking you should feel a neccessity to use defensive stance over offensive or else you get your butt handed to you. <b>Utility:</b> Our Intervene line is still ho-hum and lackluster.  There is nothing about it that is good.  If someone is getting hit and you throw all 3 intervene spells on them you are now taking damage along with them.  In a single healer group this is still problems as its hard enough at times to heal one person and wait for your spells to refresh to heal yourself or vice versa.  I made a macro that I can click when I have a mob targetted that would cast all 3 of them on my target's target for ease. From my experience with a Defilier in the group and wards they are nasty agro grabbers.  I haven't had any experience with it yet as my SK friend lived in the New Orleans area and has been temporarily displaced and not able to play lately but one scenario I can assume is if someone grabs agro you could throw a ward on them as as the mobs hit that person you gain agro back.  This accomplishes two things, you prevent some damage to that person AND you get agro back or at least helps your cause at getting it back. <b>Agro:</b> Continues from the above utility.  Its much more difficult to maintain agro, but this in part due to the cast times of many combat abilities being changed so people can just rip off a lot of damage in very short time grabbing nasty agro.  This is countered in part with having the scouts in your group cast their agro buffs on you so you generate more agro with each action you do. Taunting Assult / Tremor: Needs to have cast time lowered to that of other attacking combat abilities (0.2 seconds) <b>Fun: </b>Yes it is more difficult to play a guardian now than before, I am finding myself managing my abilities more closely than in the past.  I constantly have the lowest power than anyone else, even the wizard who chain nukes and from reading their boards (/zomg I read another classes board but I do have a wizard alt that I play) are complaining that their power costs are too high. Sorry I haven't provided much constructive response here just identified some areas that I feel could be looked at more closely. <div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gungo wrote:I totally agree with you rafaelsmith. and thats why i proposed adding more utility and solo/group abilites to help guards be more desired. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Would be nice.  I like some of the stun/proc ideas you have mentioned. But I think trying to argue that Guards should get more utility is going to be hard..Mostly due to the perception most people have about Warrior...much like the perception many still have about Monk...i still to this day run across people in game that think Monk is like EQ1 Monk.  I think many people..Guards/Zerkers included cant pathom the idea of a Warrior that is anything more than a big metal wall.  I experienced this same thing in EQ1 where anytime anyone mentioned giving Warriors anything in terms of utility everyone cried bloody murder. As for the game as it stands today...If I only think about myself..then all is good cause my friends will use me nomatter what everyone else says or how much better the other fighters are.  Most of them dont pay attention the numbers as much as I do..I wish I was more like them but im not.  As long as I make sure we never invite a Bruiser =P, ill be the only one in our group that knows things arnt right...its back to that whole "feeling" aspect.  BUT I know there are many other Guards/Zerks out there that play the game at my level that dont have the luxury of loyal group. Gonna suck if it takes another year to give Warriors what they need like it took to fix the Brawlers.</span><div></div>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote:<BR> <P>Sharl.   </P> <P>I know what your talking about.</P> <P>We have used this tactic in the past ourselves.</P> <P>One guardian parrying for the other and mitgating some damage.</P> <P>We have tried this both pre and post LU13.</P> <P>Heres the results.  A lot of healers dont like the OT to use the damage mit spell because he takes the full damage and he doesnt get to mit with his resists.</P> <P>You have the MT taking hits more often because of the gimped avoidance and mitigation.  Now you have your healers spreading their resources to 2 tanks.  With the drastic drop in our HP's were easily going from green to orange in a few hits.  And Yes with all group buffs up.</P> <P>Me 50% fabled 50% ebon.</P> <P>HP's 6K</P> <P>Group was: Guardian, Fury, Inquisitor, SK, Assasin, Warlock.</P> <P>Mob was a named in the Clefts cant remember which but was 52 heroic.</P> <P>Started with standard pull.  arrow shot using indium arrows.  damage around 500.</P> <P>deafen, protect, interupt, shield bash.  Fury casts porcipine.  Im anchored and in defensive stance.  He hits me once and I go low yellow right through the reactives.  I get a instant heal and boom he hits me to the orange.   </P> <DIV>If you play 2 guardian tactic its the same thing but now you have 2 tanks in the orange.  It looks like you need at least 2 or even 3 healers to keep the MT up anymore,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I'm thinkin' more along these lines.  Monk MT (shock! horror!) and a guard protecting him, and maybe another guard protecting the guard protecting the monk heh.  Hell I dunno if it will work or not, but at least I'm thinking about this stuff.  I think its worth playing around with a class for a month before we talk about how bad we are.</P> <P> </P>

[Krooner]

<P>Skarl.</P> <P>I hear Ya.  Yeah we play around with differnet formations too.</P> <P>I dont have an ego to stroke like some others.  We have tried Guard-Guard, SK Guard, Guard SK, even Assasin-Guard.</P> <P>Will be trying Guard-Zerk and Guard-Bruiser soon.</P> <P>To everyone I say: Yes it is the Guardians job to proctect the group.  The imaginative among us do this in many ways, not just with our "Utility" buffs ( which are almost non-existant now.)</P> <P>With the mobs the way they are now even our ablility to OT is diminished.  Our ability to protect our group is diminished.</P> <P>The only rock solid thing we had was taunts that can now be resisted.</P> <P>I used to have every taunt I ever had on my "Hate bar".  Everything that would generate hate.  In a long battle if I was low on power I could use a lower taunt to help generate hate.  Our only alternative to this post LU13 is Maddening defence.  It roots us so if we need to reposition guess what we have to turn it off.. and anchor if we have it on and then move.</P> <P>I dont know if anyone else sees a problem with this but with SOE making the mobs spread out their special attacks a lot of raid mobs now need to be jousted.  If Im the MT fine I can stay put with heals over time on me while they wait for the attack to hit.  But if I shielding and guarding and dug in for extra mit its a problem.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

<DIV>Our utility is fine, we do not need any further utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The #1 issue with Guardians is our base Mitigation is too low.</DIV>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warbird1 wrote:<BR> <P>Skarl.</P> <P>I hear Ya.  Yeah we play around with differnet formations too.</P> <P>I dont have an ego to stroke like some others.  We have tried Guard-Guard, SK Guard, Guard SK, even Assasin-Guard.</P> <P>Will be trying Guard-Zerk and Guard-Bruiser soon.</P> <P>To everyone I say: Yes it is the Guardians job to proctect the group.  The imaginative among us do this in many ways, not just with our "Utility" buffs ( which are almost non-existant now.)</P> <P>With the mobs the way they are now even our ablility to OT is diminished.  Our ability to protect our group is diminished.</P> <P>The only rock solid thing we had was taunts that can now be resisted.</P> <P>I used to have every taunt I ever had on my "Hate bar".  Everything that would generate hate.  In a long battle if I was low on power I could use a lower taunt to help generate hate.  Our only alternative to this post LU13 is Maddening defence.  It roots us so if we need to reposition guess what we have to turn it off.. and anchor if we have it on and then move.</P> <P>I dont know if anyone else sees a problem with this but with SOE making the mobs spread out their special attacks a lot of raid mobs now need to be jousted.  If Im the MT fine I can stay put with heals over time on me while they wait for the attack to hit.  But if I shielding and guarding and dug in for extra mit its a problem.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I agree that our utility is kinda low.  That is a good point.  I wish that prot spell you can place on a friend would stay up and negate an attack, but stay up for an unlimited time until it is triggered.  As far are the rest of your post, it's good to see some strategy for a change besides crying.  This is the stuff I like to read and give input to.  I have had great luck with maddening defense.  Btw to disbable maddening defense just hit the button again I think that disables it.  I am gonna prob put my maddening defense button right next to my auto attack button.   I just have to teach my guildmates that if they want me to KEEP aggro, I have to ESTABLISH/BUILD aggro.  Some of the time, I have barely called the monster a son of a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], and a mage or ranger is rippin his guts out.  In a roleplay way of explaining it thats the way it is.  Thank god there is individual xp debt now hehe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro is different now.  We have to finesse it more.  It's not about hit one button and we are done.  Building and maintaining aggro is going to really seperate the men from the boys now, but I tell you I have wore out that maddening defense button, and it really is a worthwhile skill, I picked it as my master II and I ain't gonna respec heh.  Also, teaching the rest of the group to give you time is a big component, but I don't have to tell you raid type guys this. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>Skarl.</P> <P>Yeah I kwew about the toggle on the buff.  Still going to take some getting used to.  Good idea about putting it next to the auto-attack though.  I took it as a master 2 as well.</P> <P>I dont think many guardians have used the "Unyeilding will spell much" but it has saved a few raids for me.</P> <P>I would like to see a upgrade to this at around 60 to give us some more "Guard" flavor.</P> <P>I would like to see it the same with the following effect added at the end,</P> <P>When deaths door completes and the guardian dies his current ally target receives a percent of the guardians essense for 36 seconds.  HP / power. with a little more regen.  Sort of like a very stress on VERY limited harclave buff.</P> <P> </P>

[sylvo]

Our utility is fine.We add to a group to a similar level as warlocks/wizards do. To the poster who blamed those in beta for the outcome Im sorry but if you were in beta and followed the guardian threads you would know perfectly well this is not what anyone wanted. If you werent in beta I dont see what right you have to criticise. To those who say we have an edge in tanking they are right we do. (dont end quote there if you are going to respond to this). However it is so minute that it may aswell not be there. It would be like giving sorcerors a 10dps advantage over other mages. Pointless. All most guardians seem to want is to be able to tank a bit better than we currently do. Our taunting is passable. The HTL series is great, the whole taunt resist things is a bit stupid but nm. Our Dps is fine. We can spike dps to make taking out solos fine. We arent as mana efficient with it as we were but no sweat, we dont have to recast buffs every 6 minutes. We bring a nice group wide HP buff. The vigilance line is nicely improved (would be nice if it told the target they just got their [Removed for Content] saved everytime it works but nm.) The base hitpoint thing was annoying but liveable. ------------------------------------- Just make plate/tower shields count properly please. Regards. Farhane. <div></div>

[Raahl]

<P>Blackguard, here's some info.  If you need the parced logs or screenshots, let me know.</P> <P><STRONG>Character info:</STRONG>  Level 43 Guardian</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG>In defense mode:</STRONG> Fulginate plate w/Journeyman boots, Cedar Imbued Tower Shield, wielding an Feyiron Imbued Long sword.  Stance = Defensive</P> <P><STRONG>In offensive mode:</STRONG> Fulginate plate w/Journeyman boots, wielding the Short Sword of the Ykesha and The Polished Granite Tomahawk.  Stance = Offensive</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG>In Offensive mode:</STRONG>  Parced with Combat Stats</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>DPS against a Level 45 single down arrow solo mob, conned yellow to me.  DPS = 110-115  (That's spamming all my combat abilities and 1 HO)</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG>In Defensive mode:  </STRONG>Parced with Combat Stats</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>DPS against a Level 45 single down arrow solo mob, conned yellow to me.  DPS = 80-100  (That's spamming all my combat abilities and 1 HO)</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG><U>30 Second Mitigation Buffs</U></STRONG></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Commanding Presence - 30 second buff with a 1 minute recast timer. </P> <P>Entrench - 30 second buff with a 1 minute 30 second recast timer.  Roots caster.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><STRONG><U>Buffed with all my untill cancelled buffs</U></STRONG></P> <DIV>Mitigation = 39.3%</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance = 42.7%  (33.7% without shield)</DIV> <P><STRONG><U>Buffed with untill cancelled buffs and Commanding Presence</U></STRONG></P> <DIV>Mitigation = 47.1%</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance = 42.7%  (33.7% without shield)</DIV> <P><STRONG><U>Buffed with untill cancelled buffs, Commanding Presence and Entrench (roots guardian)</U></STRONG></P> <DIV>Mitigation = 56.1%</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance = 42.7%  (33.7% without shield)</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>I never post on the forums cuz mostly I see very little positive effects these threads ever receive.  But I just felt like adding my 2 cents to the topic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one do not like the CU, but thats just mostly just because I hate not being the end all and be all of raid tanking...That being said I can understand the other classes call for nerf, and I can even agree with SoE for making the changes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But a important fact remains, that our tanking ability is seriously questioned, I dont know how the other fighter classes are coming along, I only have a guardian so I cant comment on the others.  I am currenly level 52 and I am the MT of a "raiding caliber" guild, so I am speaking pretty intelligently on the subject.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now Mitigation does NOT seem to be making too much of an impact.  My mitigation buffs seem to do very little to actually reducing damage gained, I avoid attacks not at all, so stuns, so many stuns, land on me non-stop.  I am often losing agro in large grouped mobs because Im stunned non stop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can deal with the dps, I personally dont feel that it is rediculously underpowered, but I feel my tanking ability is.  Last night I let an assassin level 51 take agro and keep it during the fight.  This was against level 58 heroic cyclops in PoF, that my single healer often has trouble keeping me alive, as my hitpoint bar will dive into the orange every other hit.  Im geared in almost full fabled, some ebon still, prismatic weapon and regen rings...Anyways, my assassin seems to my eyes to handle tanking the mob just as well as I could, his hitpoints dive into the orange every 4th or 5th hit, avoiding more damage, and taking very little damage more then I was in Full fabled plate.  When I had agro I was taking hits for approx: 1100 damage, the assassin in less fabled more ebon was taking hits for around 1500...with hitpoints only about 1k or so less then me...  I just cant imagine this scenario is what is intended...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My call is for mitigation to take more of an effect, make a "tank" worthwhile to have in a group.  WIth the way it seems now, a group with a scout tank doing 3times the dps of a tank, and taking hits almost as well as the tank seems like a better choice.  At least pallies can Heal, and talking to SK guildies their DPS is much more then mine as a guard...We actually dont have any bruisers in the guild to compare against, but our monks do a signifigant amount more damage then I do as well, this Gaige I can prove by sending you the parser, the Monk was using a defensive stance during the fights and still was outdamaging me almost by double...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what I see is guards now do a lot less damage then monks and sk's, they cannot heal like pallies, but they all tank the same??  Well whatever, Im all for classes being different in their own ways, which gives the game flavor and spice, but seriously 900more mitigation seems to do almost nothing for me in fights, ESPECIALLY if im getting stunned non stop...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have more points I wanted to bring up, but this post is long enough and Im at work, ill check back to this later to see what flames Ill be taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant'</DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>I never post on the forums cuz mostly I see very little positive effects these threads ever receive.  But I just felt like adding my 2 cents to the topic.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one do not like the CU, but thats just mostly just because I hate not being the end all and be all of raid tanking...That being said I can understand the other classes call for nerf, and I can even agree with SoE for making the changes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But a important fact remains, that our tanking ability is seriously questioned, I dont know how the other fighter classes are coming along, I only have a guardian so I cant comment on the others.  I am currenly level 52 and I am the MT of a "raiding caliber" guild, so I am speaking pretty intelligently on the subject.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now Mitigation does NOT seem to be making too much of an impact.  My mitigation buffs seem to do very little to actually reducing damage gained, I avoid attacks not at all, so stuns, so many stuns, land on me non-stop.  I am often losing agro in large grouped mobs because Im stunned non stop.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can deal with the dps, I personally dont feel that it is rediculously underpowered, but I feel my tanking ability is.  Last night I let an assassin level 51 take agro and keep it during the fight.  This was against level 58 heroic cyclops in PoF, that my single healer often has trouble keeping me alive, as my hitpoint bar will dive into the orange every other hit.  Im geared in almost full fabled, some ebon still, prismatic weapon and regen rings...Anyways, my assassin seems to my eyes to handle tanking the mob just as well as I could, his hitpoints dive into the orange every 4th or 5th hit, avoiding more damage, and taking very little damage more then I was in Full fabled plate.  When I had agro I was taking hits for approx: 1100 damage, the assassin in less fabled more ebon was taking hits for around 1500...with hitpoints only about 1k or so less then me...  I just cant imagine this scenario is what is intended...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My call is for mitigation to take more of an effect, make a "tank" worthwhile to have in a group.  WIth the way it seems now, a group with a scout tank doing 3times the dps of a tank, and taking hits almost as well as the tank seems like a better choice.  At least pallies can Heal, and talking to SK guildies their DPS is much more then mine as a guard...We actually dont have any bruisers in the guild to compare against, but our monks do a signifigant amount more damage then I do as well, this Gaige I can prove by sending you the parser, the Monk was using a defensive stance during the fights and still was outdamaging me almost by double...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what I see is guards now do a lot less damage then monks and sk's, they cannot heal like pallies, but they all tank the same??  Well whatever, Im all for classes being different in their own ways, which gives the game flavor and spice, but seriously 900more mitigation seems to do almost nothing for me in fights, ESPECIALLY if im getting stunned non stop...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have more points I wanted to bring up, but this post is long enough and Im at work, ill check back to this later to see what flames Ill be taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant'</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Good post!  Please share the numbers from your parser.</DIV>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<P>I posted this elsewhere but I think that if we ask for mitigation increase, then they are just going to improve the brawlers avoidance.  I think they want us to build our mitigation increase with the loot drops that have yet to start dropping.  We may see once raiders get back to the epics some better loot may drop to increase mitigation and avoidance for brawlers, making tanking easier, but who knows.</P> <P>This is kind of a big picture look, but may be true.</P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<p>I posted this elsewhere but I think that if we ask for mitigation increase, then they are just going to improve the brawlers avoidance.  I think they want us to build our mitigation increase with the loot drops that have yet to start dropping.  We may see once raiders get back to the epics some better loot may drop to increase mitigation and avoidance for brawlers, making tanking easier, but who knows.</p> <p>This is kind of a big picture look, but may be true.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> That would suck for people that dont have access to raid loot...which from my perspective are the ones hit harddest with the revamp. Of course I wouldnt be suprised because underneath it all I think people want EQ2 to revert to EQ1 ways of doing things. </span><div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Sylvore i was a veyr active beta player and poster and yes i remeber what guards asked for and it is still the same deal no utility and superior tanking. but that is niehter my issue nor am i trying to genralize all guards i can provide dated qoutes if needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you don't want to take my word or the fact gaurds are still the prefered main tank, take a look at what some other classes liek this templar says. </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>whitemane wrote:</DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <DIV>Guardians in fully fabled really can't do much now. The avoidance penalty has really hurt a lot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Invited a level 53 guardian in fully fabled to help tanking a blue level 52 epic X 2 named in sinking sands. With 3 healers buffing him, he was basically one shotted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nice job nerfing around, SOE!!!</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Brog I assume? THat had nothing to do with your MT's avoidance. Nice try though guys.</P> <P>You need to revisit your strategy for him. Brog hits the MT for around 4-6k ranged damage on the pull and drains all the tanks power. Send in a scout ( or some other appropriate sacrifice) first to do the pull and have your MT taunt Brog off. Brog  goes down in seconds if you try it that way ( and if your MT is quick enough the scout might even live ours did ( barely <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0> )). He's seriously harsh if you try and just have your MT charge in.</P> <P>IMHO Gaurdians are still by far the best flat out tanks. The difference Ive noted is now that you are no longer miles ahead of the other tanks wich is a good thing in my experience. I have had absolutely no issues with Gaurdians fullfilling their role as tanks in any groups I ve had lately. They keep agro very well and as a templar easier to heal. Your milage may vary I guess. After the revamp Skill and Gear ( meaning decent armour and upgrade CA's) are a must. We all used to complain that alot of ADEPT III's/ Masters were not worth the cost/effort. Now they are. Bigtime</P> <P>The only place I see of concern is that old world raids still havent been balanced so we cant really say how this pans out in a raid situation ( Other than Brog Meathoot etc which are all easy). That being the case  its pointless to complain about being owned by the Fire and Ice Drakes and  say you've been nerfed . Everyone has, nothing can now survive autoattack damage of 2k etc. that the mobs put out is sheer death to even try. If you think a bruiser can tank 'em have it and let me know how it goes =D (Meaning you're all going to die pretty much instantaneously no matter what class ). </P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________</P> <P>the fact is all fighters got nerfed. The fact is they never retuned old world raid content enuff if at all. Pure tanking is not an issue heriocs are fine, solo are fine. epics are not tuned completely. Some classes solo better then others. some classes are preferred mor ethen others in groups. guardians still mt raids. All SOE needs to do is retune epic encounters, limit certain classes from soloing higher con heroic (which the red orange con nerfing is doing) . and Add more abilities to classes that lack usefulness. As i stated before guards are better tanks even if marginally that makes a big difference. a brawler that dies becasue he can not tank as well as a guard equals a group wipe genraaly. a scout that dps's a bit less then antoehr scout means you spend a few more seconds fighting the mob. Fighters need to be able to fulfill there role. they need to have a smaller gap in tanking or not every other fighter other then a guard is basically gimped. Guards need utility not increased tankign liek it or not that is the only logical answer to give guards desireablity in solo/group settings.</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:48 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<BR> <P>I posted this elsewhere but I think that if we ask for mitigation increase, then they are just going to improve the brawlers avoidance. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why's that?  Last I saw brawlers were around 15-20% higher in base avoidance than guardians.  Where guardians are around 5% higher in base mitigation than brawlers.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:39 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Am I wrong tho??</P> <P>Also I meant to ask, I see almost NO difference in damage Im taking while using my 30second miti buffs...I mean when Im taking 1100 normally, and I use the buff you would think it cut it down by like 40 percent...it sure as hell doesnt....At least when Im tracking my combat window, it seems to reduce the damage by like 90???  If this is correct, and Im not on drugs and seeing things, let me know if other guards are experiencing the same thing...</P> <P>At this point if Guards take the same amount of damage over a long fight as monks do, based on our miti, and their avoidance, they are still doing so much more damage cuz they arent stunned the whole time either(thanks for avoiding more attacks)...I am really not having much fun playing my guardian right now, and I have always loved the class till this.</P> <P>Covenant'</P>

[Gungo]

<P>raahl wrote:</P> <P>Why's that?  Last I saw brawlers were around 15-20% higher in base avoidance than guardians.  Where guardians are around 5% higher in base mitigation than brawlers.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________</P> <P>thats funny last post i saw that a gaurdian posted showed bruisers w ~15% more avodiance and ~10% less mititgation while using a 3 min buff that now drains 1300hp (% based but that is what i currently get) a min and a reuse after it fades of 3 min compared to guard NOT using his 30 sec mitigation buff or Defense buff.</P> <P>Still no one answered a prior question i had what exactly does Defense add. I know its not just avodiance liek many guards presume. and to look at just avoid and mitigation where guards have a higher defense is skewing the argument on tanking especially when In game event show Guards as the preferred maintank.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:54 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Id love to see a Dev answer your question Gunga...It has been plagueing me for some time now, and I cant figure it out myself...I didnt want to get into this debate about tankage without knowing it... Hopefully we will get an answer soon!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>thats funny last post i saw that a gaurdian posted showed bruisers w ~15% more avodiance and ~10% less mititgation while using a 3 min buff that now drains 1300hp (% based but that is what i currently get) a min and a reuse after it fades of 3 min compared to guard NOT using his 30 sec mitigation buff or Defense buff.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>The example I saw had a monk at 34.3% with defensive stance and gear when a guardian was at 39.3% with defensive stance and gear.  Once the guardian uses his 30 second buffs he was around 45%.   So it was not stated that the monk had his 3 minute buff up.   Show us some screenshots of you with your defensive buffs up.  I'm interested in seeing what your Mit and avoidance is.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and that same example has the monk at 60.5% avoidance with defensive stance and gear and the guardian at 42.7% avoidance with defensive stance and gear. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:07 PM</span>

[Gungo]

monks don't get a 3 min mitigation buff bruisers do. I think alot of the misconception comes from guardians relating 2 different classes and thier combined abilites to a gaurd. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so basically w/o knowing how defense effects tanking looking at pure avodi and mitigation is only looking at half the argument. Since guards have a higher defense and higher mitigation. The only real debate should come from in game parses of 2 completely similar characters. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:12 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>monks don't get a 3 min mitigation buff bruisers do. I think alot of the misconception comes from guardians relating 2 different classes and thier combined abilites to a gaurd. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ok sorry about that.   Post some screeshots of your base defense stats before your 3 minute buff and after.  We can then compare things.</DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Possible solution to the mitigation issue.</P> <P>Add a shields "shield factor" to the players mitigation value.</P>

[backtostart]

<P>Blackguard i hope you see this at the back of a 3 page post, but it has been 1 week after the release od DoF and guardians are playable but i have to say if i could take the time and put it into another chacter i would.</P> <P>Why can every other fighter type but guardians heal them selfs? Monks can, paladins can, shadowknights can, and bezerkers can. Monks and shadow knights can fear, I understand why shadowkights can but why monks. Dont think this is a big deal try dualing a monk. All fighter types have some kind of huge damge ability except guardians. You say are buffs are great for defence and they are but there are 4 or 5 buffs and combat is almost always over by the time you cast all them or the group is dead and it to little to late.</P> <P>I think a greeat fix would be to give guardians some kind of resistance line that is effective and at the same time improve our stuns with faster casting times. Please do something because right now the honest truth is we suck.</P> <P>Coleslaw lvl 51 guardian</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> backtostart wrote:<BR> <P>Monks and shadow knights can fear, I understand why shadowkights can but why monks.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We don't fear.  Bruisers do.</P> <P>See that's what I'm talking about, people getting the bruiser/monk classed mixed up <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Kell]

<P>The common point in this thread is that regardless of what our mitigation % is, there is no visible difference in the damage we take.  What is our higher mitigation doing for the group?</P> <P>This  forum is filled with comments about mages, pets, scouts all tanking *basically* the same as our class.</P> <P>If our "utility" is based on abilites like Vigilance and Gaurdain Sphere lines then I am truly dissapointed.</P> <P>Vigilance does checks against our avoidance.....OUR avoidance...and what have we avoided lately?</P> <P>Guardian Sphere is a simply a death wish in epic encounters....</P> <P>What do we have to differentiate ourselves?   Why is it "fun" to play the Guardian?</P>

[Gungo]

Actually raahl i think you had the best solution. Not only would mitigation on shields help, but if tower shields had moe mitigation then kite there would be a reason to use tower again . The next step they should do is give crusaders a stat item for range slot. that could help a bit. An extra 200 mitigation on a shield is fine and wouldn't create a massive gap in tanking. furthermore guards still need utilty.  I don't care what the fw vocal raiding guards say thier is a very very large portion of solo/group/small guild guards that need utiltiy to be desired in groups or to help them solo better and stack w other guards. A tower shield w 200 mitigation does not do that.  Its this vocal minority of guards that is basically screwing the casual guard who doesnt tank big bad mobs. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not only that but added miti to shields still leaves guards no flavor or excitement or skill to play. I proposed ideas that for a well played guard who played right could time or use special skills to become a great guard. </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:44 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>I think the major point SOE needs to adress is the fact that a scout tanks almost as well as a guard right now.  They seriously just need to adjust mitigation values...I mean Old world raid mobs are like impossible to us atm..we were a guild taking on T5 grp4 contesteds and now we are a guild that cant kill Drayek with 18people and a level 52 guardian...Something didnt scale quite right.  No one can take the auto damage from a mob, not Guards not Bruisers, not Monks....its just frustrating not having anythign to raid but Meathooks....</P> <P>A increase in Mitigation values will make a guardian feel like a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] guardian again...I mean [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] are we guarding if we take almost as much damage from a mob as a scout does, while Im decked in almost full fabled...Something just isnt adding up right...Stun Stun Stun Wack Wack Wack...Might as well let a tree tank for you, I mean we are always planted and we do no damage, and we are stunned most times anyways...</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[BostonFNO]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> I don't care what the fw vocal raiding guards say thier is a very very large portion of solo/group/small guild guards that need utiltiy to be desired in groups or to help them solo better and stack w other guards. A tower shield w 200 mitigation does not do that.  Its this vocal minority of guards that is basically screwing the casual guard who doesnt tank big bad mobs. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not only that but added miti to shields still leaves guards no flavor or excitement or skill to play. I proposed ideas that for a well played guard who played right could time or use special skills to become a great guard.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:44 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> <BR><FONT color=#ff9900>This is me exactly and I think you are entirely right. More mitigation will not help me out whatsoever from what I can tell. Thank you for your ideas, Gungo.</FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Gungo]

I don't see where a scout is better then any fighter. Most Scouts currently can't solo that well compared to other classes. Group wise yeah you cna chose a scout to tank, but if it is in any type of zone where a mob does actual damge then the scout is very dead. I would liek to see a scout tank a 3 up yellow or higher heroic w/o doing a [Removed for Content] poor job. currently only fighters can tank 3 up yellow or orange heroics in groups with little issues. Personnal i dont think scouts need tankign nerfs. What i do think is that old world raid mobs which were artificially inflated pre-revamp need a serious overhaul. At least be happy they just retuned angler we will at least get 1 mob every week =p. At this rate we should have all the old world mobs retuned by christmas.

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Your completely and utterly wrong gungo.  A level 51 Assassin tanked level 57-58 epic mobs in PoF last night in my group just to see how it would work out, and healers had no more trouble keeping him up then me a level 52 Guardian.  So I know your wrong, and perhaps you should go try these things out before giving us advice.  The mitigation values are sorely screwed, I have tested this over and over, and I do not MITIGATE anywhere near the damage I feel I should as a "Guardian" a plate wearing TANK~!!  Scouts get hit for about the same I do, but they are minus the tuants...and they do 3 times as much damage...</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P><p>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:14 PM</span>

[Gungo]

My other question on tanking other then what does defense do is during the combat revamp in the patch notes it stated fabled items would have a greater effect then legendary etc. But when the combat revamp came out the stats on my items had lil change other then a complete downgrade on resistance. Is there some unseen value fabled has over legandary? Because currently Its very noticable a fully fabeld  fighter does way bette rthen a fully legendary fighter. I don't know if its the small stat upgrades or the effects on fabled but it is now a noticable difference.  Since stats have so lilttle meaning atm i somehow think fabled has some hidden check like defense adds. Could be just my perception and i could be totally off on this, but if anyone has an answer it woudl be great.

[Belgor]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So what I see is guards now do a lot less damage then monks and sk's, they cannot heal like pallies, but they all tank the same??  Well whatever, Im all for classes being different in their own ways, which gives the game flavor and spice, but seriously 900more mitigation seems to do almost nothing for me in fights, ESPECIALLY if im getting stunned non stop...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>900 mitigation for a level 60 character is 15% mitigation, that is realy alot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and also, if you complain about being stunned non stop, how easy do you think it is as a pally trying to heal himself?</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Im not calling for a Pally nerf, Im calling for a mitigation revamp...the system now is currently severely flawed...I have no idea if the pallies are suffering the same woes as a Guard, BUT at least u can heal yourself.  We get stunned and when we finally unstunned we can hit for measley damage spell, while u get off a heal to continute on...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant'</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>Ok tanraistlyn</P> <P>Quoted from your prior post.</P> <P>Your completely and utterly wrong gungo.  A level 51 Assassin tanked level 57-58 epic mobs in PoF last night in my group just to see how it would work out, and healers had no more trouble keeping him up then me a level 52 Guardian.  So I know your wrong, and perhaps you should go try these things out before giving us advice.  The mitigation values are sorely screwed, I have tested this over and over, and I do not MITIGATE anywhere near the damage I feel I should as a "Guardian" a plate wearing TANK~!!  Scouts get hit for about the same I do, but they are minus the tuants...and they do 3 times as much damage...</P> <P> </P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I am sorry i have to call BS on a assasin 1 grouping a 57-58 <STRONG>EPIC </STRONG>mob. The scouts in my group are hard pressed to survive if they draw agro on the cyclops 3 up heroic 6-7 lvls above him. Show me some proof herea scout can 1 group epics please.</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:24 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>I didnt take [Removed for Content] of it, and the assassin didnt have full fabled, he had about half fabled.  We had a defiler and a warden in the group, so 2 healers and I asked them after a couple fights and we discussed it...they said they noticed almost no difference in tanking between me and the assassin, altho they had to pay more attention cuz he didnt have as many hitpoints so when he hit orange they had to land their heals asap or one shot my knock him down.  </P> <P>Now I know you as a NON plate wearing class is really pushing for mitigation values to not change, but SOE knows and countless plate wearers have already posted about Scouts/Mages/Pets all tanking and taking damage as good as them.  Sooo....Something is obviously wrong.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>AND on another note I notice on the bruiser forums, bruisers are talking about killing heroic mobs of equal level...now show me the guardian who can currently claim that, and Ill stop pushing for a mitigation revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cove'</DIV>

[Gungo]

Woot i can do that i'll take you up on that offer brb w a post.

[DanielAtchison]

<DIV>OOOOK... so i was reading this post and i see "<SPAN>SkarlSpeedbump</SPAN>" post about his bruiser and guardian being the same..... thats the BIGGEST load of BS i have seen..... i have a 51 guardian and 51 bruiser......... i hate playing my guardian now since my bruiser can solo named and heroics. i have trouble killing 1 heroic and my bruiser can take 2 at a time and still nearly have full HP and power......... i wish i could see him play his guardian and tell me whats going on...... fix the guardians please...... havent you seen enough to try to fix them to what we once were. We dont even get groups anymore. we are solo class and not by choice and we have trouble doing that..... SoE do something!!!!!</DIV>

[Burningho]

<DIV>I DO NOT want to be the only fighter class that can tank, but I DO want to be unique in some way.  My role used to be crystal clear.  It is not as clear now.    </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After the combat changes it seems to me like SOE has essentially met their goal of balancing the tanking and dps abilities of the fighter classes.  There aren't HUGE gaps like there were before.  We may not all agree or like the changes, but fighters seem to be relatively equal at their ability to tank.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem is that there is now a significant gap in non-dps and non-tanking abilities between fighters.  It seems like all the other figher classes have some cool special ability that sets them apart while guardians have nothing that feels unique.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The reason why I think many of us guardians don't want to even ask for more utility right now is because we are afraid that getting more utility would mean we would loose out on having our tanking abilities improved.  Well let's face it, we aren't going to get better tanking abilities, more mitigation, better avoidance, or more hp's.  What we have is what we get.  So let's at least try to make guardians less boring to play by adding something different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please SOE, give guardians some unique ability like all the other fighters get. </DIV>

[sylvo]

After the combat changes it seems to me like SOE has essentially met their goal of balancing the tanking and dps abilities of the fighter classes.  There aren't HUGE gaps like there were before.  We may not all agree or like the changes, but fighters seem to be relatively equal at their ability to tank. ----------------------------------------------------- Sorry but this is wrong. The tanking is balanced but not in scale with DPS and other abilities. Its balanced to the point of being little or no noticeable difference between the different fighters. You honestly think there isnt a massive gap between brawler and warrior dps ? Gungo insists on telling guardians what they should want saying that its a small vocal minority who want to tank better. Im sorry but is that along the same lines of the vocal minority who ended up getting the brawlers tanking improved ? I speak to a lot of guardians. I'll give you a clue as to what they are concerned over, it isnt utility or DPS... <div></div>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Daniel and Sylvator hit it right on the head...HOPEING something comes soon or /cancel account...</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Gungo]

Hey say what you want there are guards who agree with me so its not like i am preaching to an empty choir.

[sylvo]

I hear you preach, doesn't mean I want to hear your sermon... ? If a guardian wants more utility, sorry you selected warrior when you meant crusader. Its like a wizard saying "but I wanted mez aswell..." <div></div>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>MOST guards dont want utility, if we did we woulda went crusader, WE want the mitigation formula fixed so we stop tanking like scouts...</P> <P>Good thing we have a Bruiser tho telling us what we should and shouldnt want or have....Isnt there a Bruiser thread calling you name somewhere??</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Gungo]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17791" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=17791</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there ya go a 2 page thread w alto of casual gaurds askign to be able to solo/group better. funny i keep talking to the same handful of peopel here.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:30 PM</span>

[Zappo_bb]

<DIV>I like the idea of giving our taunt a slow as well as the interrupt.</DIV> <DIV>my idea of a guardian is the CC of melee</DIV>

[Gungo]

nice idea zappo thats what i am talkign about actual ideas outside the box.

[blueduckie]

<P>Ok I scanned over alot will answer alot of questions i saw that werent answered, reconfirm what i have seen, crunch some numbers i did math on. Some numbers are guestimates because i dont have exact on what buffs will add i also dont know exactly what stacks so I will do my best.</P> <P>Ill start with number crunching as i feel it is the most important and makes me not feel as bad but still lets me know somethings are broken. I am lvl 54 now. At lvl 50 you needed 4k avoidance for 80% mitigation. At lvl 50 youll need 4800. I am sitting at 2501 mit. This with stance adept 3. In full cobalt it will add possibly 300mitigation to me since out of my fabled only 3 are armor slots which are all less than cobalt for me. So that puts me at 2801. I get my new defense stance and guess it will avg 200 more mit at adept 3. It might be less mit it might be more. That is my guess since i dont have it yet. That is 3000 mitigation. Cleric / Druid( dont know if adds mit now perma) / Shaman adds 1kish mit maybe more maybe a little less with t6 skills most likely more. Id fully guess closer to 1200. I know right now weith defiler / inq i can get around 900 phyiscal mit. So saying it is just 1k being generous it is 4k. That is pretty darn good for a raid buff mit. So now we have our mit buffs we can cycle through occasionally. 1300 mit at 54 from my current 2. Is 5300 mitigation. Thats capping a lvl 64 mob. The mit cap on a 64 is 5200.</P> <P>So we can cap our mit and have a decent sitting mitigation. So here is my concern now. We dont have to much room to grow into fabled. I think mitigation cap needs to be set to 99% Thats just my opinion. I feel old content should be trivial by lvls. So until parsing raids i am a little satisfied by those numbers for what cap ideas they have implemented on how we will hold our own on a mob. </P> <P>Now my argument shifts a little different. I dont know many brawlers on my server so i challenge a guardian / bruiser to compare legitiate fights vs a heroic 4 lvls higher and see who misses more in same group both in defensive stance. This would allow me to see if our shield blocking % is fine atm.</P> <P>Here is the problem others have said also. Almost all our mit comes from buffs so anyone can tank including a scout with there defensive stances. So the challenge for devs is to find a way to make guardians unique. Those who argue guardians are the best fine if you wanna call guardian the best fine. However we dont tank unique and we dont tank better IMHO. So peopel can differ there. 1 think that could make guardians unique is same thing ogres had in EQlive. Make us unable to be stunned or stifled from the front IF using tower shield only. So now this makes tower shield unqiue and makes guardian unique. Giving this to zerkers is possible also but I think it would make guardians in general more unique. Like zerkers can do more dmg while tanking(was said would happen i dont know how it works for a zerker) but this would give us a tanking bonus. Thats huge utility and i think is worth consideration by devs IMHO. With numbers and the challenge devs are trying to make they look fine. Old content or how much a lvl makes on a mob needs to make a bigger difference atm.</P> <P>Thats all i can think of at this moment but those numbers are fairly accurate and i feel if anything they are lower than what they may actually end up being on our lvl 60 raid buffed mitigation in full cobalt. Our mitigation isnt as dark as i thought so the idea of utility is a pretty good idea if it is the right utility. Would rather have utility that effects are tanking or control of who is tanking. We already have alot of protect and now a aggro decrease on someone. So i think a literal effect on tanking would be the biggest bonus we could receive. Would love others input on this guardians and non guardians. Mebbe im stupid for thinking that but just my 2 cents.</P>

[Gungo]

good numbers and a good concern you cna also add in master Porcupine the fury massive mitigation buff of ~1500+ ac

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>An articulate, intelligent post.  I couldnt agree more, and seems that he has concrete proof, Id like to see what our Nay sayer Bruiser has to say, or the Monk that so openly called for a Guard nerf(not saying we didnt need it).  Cmon Mr. Bruiser, tell us about how we shouldnt want to tank more, and that most guards dont want better tanking abilities but some "utilities" given "outside the box"</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Gungo]

<P>look up one post above yours</P> <P>reading comprehension owns you =/</P> <DIV>also once again becuase its hard for you to understand. just becuase he has a concern that players will reach the buff cap and further decrease the gap in tanking doesnt mean the concern that casual guardians have regarding utility is not an issue. it only means there are other issue to worry about if anythign his post proves that a guard doenst need mroe mitiggation since they will reach the cap anyway. hence you need mroe utility other then mitigation.</DIV> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:23 PM</span>

[DanielAtchison]

<DIV>Another Da*mn good question is WHY are other classes looking and posting on this thread........ saying that all fighter are equal now...... they wouldnt know or care cuz they got a better deal .!!!!!!!! they trying to make SoE see their replies to this and say oh we made a good choice and we dont need to change anything..... i have seen for my own eyes what all the different fighters do and we Guardians are [Removed for Content]...... SoE should look at the guardians posting and read what they can see.... all Brawlers got the best deal from all this and SoE needs to flaten the fighter classes out and give better things to every1, not kill guardians and make us slow and no DPS......</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DanielAtchison on <SPAN class=date_text>09-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:56 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by DanielAtchison on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span>

[Fafnir]

Guardians are weak.  And boring.

[annyliu1]

<P>After 9/17 patch, player mitigation much less when tank orange and red con mobs. This made plate tank's mitigation even more useless. Will all epic encounters are yellow con and below? I don't think so. </P>

[Nemi]

<P>To all the Guardians that picked the class because they knew it was overpowered and uber -</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>I laugh in your general direction :smileyvery-happy: :smileytongue: :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>To the rest :- I'm fully behind you in boosting your utility.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>Speaking as a monk (which doesnt count much in this board) I'd think having an additional AoE rescue spell on a 10min timer would work well for Guardians.</P> <P>I think a Group Intervene buff would be also a good possibilty spell. It would act like a Ward, the Guardian could cast it and forget about it until it intercepts a % amount of damage, once it drops the 3min timer would recycle.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>I would think having a buff that provides a +hp regen to the group would reflect the Guardian ethos.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>These type of skills would define the 'Guardian' as a defensive tank.</P>

[Gladesman]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>At the moment, this is how it stands for me:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><U>Quest and Experience Groups</U></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Guardians do not have anything to offer that other classes can't offer as well. Maybe not 100% as good an offer, but the upsides of other fighter classes (more DPS / more utility (FD/self-heal/heal/invis)) outweigh the better tanking ability from a guardian.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Yes, I still get invited to guild groups and yes, I still play with my friends (in my case, my regular group has always consisted of 2 monks / 1 chanter / 1 swash and 1 shammie so we're weird anyway). But the only reason I can tag along is because they like *me*, not because my class adds anything substantial to the group. They could go with a monk and with better DPS and good enough tanking it would all go a lot faster for them.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Now, SOE wanted to make all fighters better tanks and they have succeeded at doing so. This was a choice, and with this choice they've now shoved the guardian class in the "useless for 90% of the game content"-category. Let's be honest.. in exp groups it's not necessary or even desired to have the best tank, it only slows the exp down with the measly DPS output (not saying that it didn't get adjusted upwards, but it's still <U>nowhere</U> near the DPS of a monk or a zerker) and power issues that guardians still seem to have. And yes, a pally's DPS may be lower than ours, but with the self-heals they have they can tank AND heal themselves just fine and grouped with one DPS-y healer (fury for instance) really does suffice for the regular group content, so no loss there.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>So. My thoughts on how to "fix" the guardian class. Either guardians should get their significant tanking advantage back to such an extent that our lack of DPS can be compensated in a group by only needing half a healer <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> OR we should get DPS that is more on par with a monk/zerker so (especially when we're not tanking) we can at least contribute in another way. It seems that this can be easily achieved by altering our stances and make it so that you really have to choose depending on the role you're playing: when I'm tanking I really better not be in my offensive stance, unlike now.. where it doesn't really seem to matter (except for the variance in my DPS output). </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I am really not unhappy about the fact that other classes can "tank", I am merely unhappy about the fact that "tanking" is all I can do. In the meantime this whole "tanking" thing was sort of <EM>added </EM>to the abilities of other classes, thus rendering my class a whole lot less useful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I am not unhappy about the way I can tank and I can hold aggro pretty well (if graphical bugs wouldn't exist <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) , so no issues there. For me it is purely feeling useless and sub-par in groups, this feeling supported by other players from different classes admitting that for an exp group they would really rather not play with a guardian. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Every class is supposed to be able to do something and yes, guardians <STRONG>can</STRONG> tank, no doubt about it. But monks can tank AND do DPS. Zerkers can tank AND do DPS. Pally's can tank AND heal. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>[and then I haven't even touched on the total lack of utility spells.. unless you count a useless intevene spell as a utility spell; at the moment it's better if another gruop member takes a hit themselves because when I intercept it we both still take damage.. very very useful indeed :smileymad:]</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><U>Solo Content</U></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>For the solo content I am especially rooting for some kind of utility spell because with no mezz/escape/fd/heal/sooth/safe-fall/invis/fear/etc/etc and with the new stuns it is nearly impossible to solo a group of mobs. I can interrupt the stuns of one mob and if I keep hitting all of my attacks I *will* kill it, but as soon as there are multiple mobs in one encounter I'm kind of screwed as I only have one AOE and I can't chew through the mobs fast enough (again, lack of real DPS will do this to you..) before I go oop and they stun and kill me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I'm not 52 yet and maybe this decoy spell (if it is similar to what I tested in beta) will help a little, but this doesn't hold anything to the effectiveness of a self-heal or a Devastation Fist or a mezz or an enduring stun (compared to the 6 second one we have now..) or an invis spell and so on and on. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Like I said before in the Long way to 60 thread; I don't necessarily want to be able to solo heroic mobs, but I would just like to stand some kind of a chance and have some fun while I'm at it. Right now the only thing I can do is kill a mob using all my damage spells (of which we have so many good ones :smileyhappy: ) and go through all my mana, wait for mana, kill another mob, wait some more. I realise that other classes can go through these solo mobs with just one spell or with 90% of their power left and I realise that they get out with less health (scouts for example) or IF the mob would get too close they'd die (mages), so that's the disadvantage for them, but come on.. I can still die pretty easily from just one Ghoul as well and with the downtime I have between fights (as I just can not melee most solo mobs down, I really do need mana for my spells) the balance ticks down for guardians. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>So yes, we can solo things, but it's just a whole lot harder for guardians than it is for most classes.. which means leveling is going slower than for most others as well (and no, guardians are not the only ones with the slow-killing annoyance - I know that templars for example have these issues as well so it seems that solo-abilities just need some fine tuning all across the board) <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>A spell similar to devastation fist or a nice group AOE that would only work on solo mobs would be very very welcome. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>As for utility and spells, some ideas (and before visitors from other classes start chewing on my behind.. I by no means think guardians should get ALL of these :smileywink: ) :</FONT></DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Group: If guardians are still supposed to be "protectors" I suggest giving us some kind of (group) damage shield buff - kind of like a reactive heal or armor feedback. This can either be on a timer or set to a max amount of damage: a mob hits me or my party member for 400 points of damage? the dmg shield will hit him back for 400 and so on until the buff expires or until the max amount of damage has been done. Would even be better if this has an increase threat aspect as well, but I can live without that put in :smileyvery-happy:</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Why not change the unyielding will spell and make it a regular self-heal on a 5 minute timer or something? Really, I'm not asking for something like the bruisers self heal with a refresh timer of a minute, but just something that may save my life (as we don't have an escape / FD / root + invis or such so we have to start yelling while we're at 15-20% health to make it out alive)</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>A long range pull skill (as suggested before) that could avoid soical aggro would really work wonders </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Solo (but could be used in group as well): A spell that will increase our defense massively (+30 or so?) temporarily (30 sec) at no cost of offensive/other skills, just to have a chance at killing a mob. Similar to Commanding presence, but just a pure defense emergency buff. Can be on a 10 minute refresh timer, as far as I'm concerned. <FONT size=1>Side note: ma</FONT></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=1>ybe Im missing the point, but why do we have both Anchor and Wall of Brawn? Yes, I may survive a little longer, but with no DPS left and the slow I can't get out and I can't get the mob dead either. I realise these spells are maybe only useful for groups, but they still seem to have too much of a negative impact to outweigh the benefit of increased defensive skills?</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Please give us one of the following: a real mezz or stun or pacify or fear spell that will last longer than 5 seconds /escape - even if it only teleports me 30 meters away I'd be happy / invis - almost every class has a solo invis, why don't we? / health to power or similar / feign death / safe-fall / rezzing ability / etc.etc. Or something else that would be "nifty" or "come in handy" in a group OR solo.</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>We have a few spells that root us in place (for really no good reason, but that's besides the point), Maddening Defense being the major one and that's one we're apparently really supposed to be using. Would it maybe be possible to add a "resist knock-back" component to this? Right now I don't like to use it because wherever I go mobs seem to have this knock-back spell (I'd also love to have it!!) and they knock me off things or through walls and such and when they do I am still magically rooted so I have to constantly toggle this spell and as I'm out of range when I'm knocked away having it on is kind of useless now anyway (as it only generates hate when I'm getting hit). I don't expect to have a 100% resistance, but 50% would already be helpful!</FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>---</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Now, for my personal comments:</FONT></P> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I really wish every other class would just stop yapping about our "godly" tanking abilities pre AND post revamp. Even if they existed before: these abilities did and do not get me any experience and do not kill any mobs, nor do they get me into a group hunting for exp or quests. These tanking abilities are not worth anything unless Terrorantula needs to be tanked, and even that still needs to be seen...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Right now, a guardian is not a fun class to play for me because I do not feel as if my class matters or contributes anything for 95% of my current playing time. And as my guild has about 5 or 6 level 50+ guardians I doubt that once we start raiding again I will feel any better because there is still only one main-tank spot in a raid (and again, this role can possibly be fullfilled by others too) and if I even get to go on a raid [why take more than 1 guardian?!] I will just stand on the sideline and hit Darathar for 100 points of damage a couple of times. And if I'm really lucky I will get to cast my vigilance on the other guardian or whomever will be main tank :smileytongue:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I really try not to be so cynical about things and I do enjoy playing and I love the game but I am just so incrediby frustrated about the class I'm playing - <EM>especially</EM> when compared to the excellent job SOE has done for most other classes.</FONT></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gladesman on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:51 PM</span>

[Nemi]

<P><FONT size=5>Wish people would stop using the HUGE font...feels like I'm reading a novel.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=1>But still, I don't think Guardians needs any sort of tanking improvement, what they need are buffs and utilities that help the group. Guardians should be 'safer' tanks:</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT size=1>A 12hr duration Group Ward would be a spell that aids a group in safety. If Mages/DPS pull aggro then the Guardian ward will protect them until a healer can retarget.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>An Encounter AoE rescue spell on a 10min timer would make groups safer and give Guardians 2 rescue spells.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>A Hit-point regen group buff would aid group safety and add flavour to the class. It could be a high regen outside of combat (reducing solo times for Guardians) and a lower regen in combat.</FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=1></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=1>Granted I'm only a monk, but I think the focus should be away from tankability (because I think all fighters have reached a balance). Guardians should strive to excel in Protecting a group and being the defensive, safest tank for groups.</FONT></P> <P> </P>

[Gladesman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=5>Wish people would stop using the HUGE font...feels like I'm reading a novel.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=2><FONT face=Verdana>My post was a novel.. in x-small font!</FONT>  :smileytongue:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>And I agree on the "no need for tanking improvement", but only if guardians get the +DPS / +utilities to make it a more rounded class. Right now we're just one of the tanks, maybe a little better than others, but nothing more than that. And that's a shame for the guardians themselves as well as for the other classes and the game as a whole itself..</FONT></P>

[Nemi]

What do you think about my suggested improvements. Would that satisfy you or go in the right direction?

[Hero]

Its a fair point but I waer a Kite shield as I can see past my character in tunnels. Wearing a Tower Shield is like driving a car with a sun shield up. Sorry but it looks cooler too. And i dont mine other tanks using one. I will accept each class should have some uniques though. <div></div>

[Gladesman]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR>What do you think about my suggested improvements. Would that satisfy you or go in the right direction? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>It definitely goes in the right direction and I'm glad that people from other classes actually think along instead of just trying to be snooty! It's hard to come up with "ready to go" answers that will not affect the other classes and will again throw everybody in a frenzy. The guardian was never as overpowered as everybody thought we were - yes, we were supertanks because of our buffs / mitigation (and buffs/reactives from other players!!), but come on.. that was ALL there was to us! Now that SOE wants all fighters to be good (not super or uber) enough tanks we've lost the one thing that we were valued for. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Look at it from this side: I personally always thought that the monks and bruisers were overpowered with their great DPS [yeah, yeah, compared to mine.. not compared to a wizard!! :smileywink:] and great utility skills (I mean, FD/safe fall/self-heal AND invis!), but now they've also gotten better tanking abilities.. and yeah, I'm glad for them and for everybody else that this revamp worked out so well (minor tweaks for everybody aside), but I'm sitting here totally empty-handed and it's hard to initiate improvement from my class' strengths, because these are not "unique" anymore and we never had anything other than this tanking thing to begin with!</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I do like the idea of the most defensive tank (that's what we've always been anyways!), but this should come with some spells and abilities that will really appeal to a group looking for exp as well - like I said: just like the rest of the fighters we need to be able to offer something else other than "just" normal tanking skills. If my "safe tanking" skills are considerably better [I liked my increased defense short-duration buff idea] and guardians just plain and simply get the best taunts (yes, we now may have more taunts, but with less DPS and no hate generating buffs/wards the difference between fighters is really not that big) with some utility skills [like the group damage shield or ward and/or self-heal] that everybody can benefit from, I think it's a big step in the right direction!</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Also, I would love to be in a group where a zerker or monk tanks and I go in my offensive stance and dish out 70-90% of their offensive stance DPS. I am really not asking for 100%, but right now I'm at about 50-70% and that is just too low. Also, for solo purposes I think our DPS whilst in offensive stance should be adjusted upwards, not with melee DPS, but with actual arts (or our arts should be upgraded, doesn't really matter).</FONT></P></DIV>

[Raahl]

<DIV>I wish you non-guardians would stop trying to tell us what we need.  You have little to no clue on what it's like to be a guardian or what needs to be done to fix our class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4><STRONG>Guardians need more mitigation!</STRONG></FONT></DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>Well I can suggest improvements all day long, suffer it.</P> <P>I can tell you that more mitigation is NOT the way to go. As of now all tanks can do the job, increasing Guardian mitigation to any level that you are going to notice a difference will only take us back the fact that groups will only have a Guardian as tank, and then we're back at square one.</P> <P>I just can't see you getting that out of SoE.</P> <P>So while you might tell me to [Removed for Content] off out of your forums for suggesting improvements to your class, unless you start giving intelligent suggesting outside of [ MAKE GUARDIANS UBER AGAIN! ] then you ain't going to get very far.</P> <P>Best of luck</P>

[Gungo]

RAAHL PLEASE READ THE GUY ABOVE YOU ASKING FOR UTILITY IS A GAURDIAN. NEMI (A MONK) OFFERED IDEAS THAT ARE NOT THAT BAD REALLY. why are you so blinded by your ego that you are ignoring every single Gaurd that posts askign for utility. once again its the vocal minority asking for more mitigation. Its the large solo/small group/small guild guards that realise increased tanking will not help them solo any faster or get an xp grind. These casual guards realise guardians are still the preferred main tank they just want to have some fun and flair in thier class since soe took away all the secondary abilites guards had before.

[Gladesman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>RAAHL PLEASE READ THE <STRIKE>GUY</STRIKE>  <FONT color=#ff0000>GIRL </FONT>ABOVE YOU ASKING FOR UTILITY IS A GAURDIAN. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Other than the gender mistake: well said. I couldn't agree more.  :smileyhappy: And I don't really consider myself to be just a casual player either, I've got my prismatic sword, I'm often MT in my guild and we raid 4-5 nights a week (although right now we're not raiding until everybody has tested the waters thoroughly!).. it's just that I find the "non epic" content more important than the raid content and I believe my class should be primarily focused and based on the 'normal' content so that EVERYBODY (hardcore as well as casual guards) can enjoy the class and the game.</FONT></DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>RAAHL PLEASE READ THE GUY ABOVE YOU ASKING FOR UTILITY IS A GAURDIAN. NEMI (A MONK) OFFERED IDEAS THAT ARE NOT THAT BAD REALLY. why are you so blinded by your ego that you are ignoring every single Gaurd that posts askign for utility. once again its the vocal minority asking for more mitigation. Its the large solo/small group/small guild guards that realise increased tanking will not help them solo any faster or get an xp grind. These casual guards realise guardians are still the preferred main tank they just want to have some fun and flair in thier class since soe took away all the secondary abilites guards had before. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why do you ignore 90% of the posts from guardians stating that we need more Mitigation not more Utility?   Does your EGO allow you to believe that you know what the best way to fix guardians is?</P> <P>You are flat out wrong.  It's a MAJORITY of guardians that are asking for mitigation.  The minority that ask for Utility are dominated by players that do not play guardians, that believe they know what's needed to fix our problems.</P>

[Nemi]

<P>I've said before, I'm first in line to help Guardians improve their utility and worth to a group <STRONG>OUTSIDE</STRONG> of increasing their tanking ability. I have no problem with Guardians being <EM>slightly</EM> better at taking damage but really it should not be particularly noticeable (think Monk HPs, technically we have more, but I'd be hard pressed to prove it making a significant difference).</P> <P>I've no doubt Guardians need utility improvements to make them more desirable, I just don't see improving tanking ability as a solution. Not when we finally have all fight sub-classes able to tank successfully.</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <P>I've said before, I'm first in line to help Guardians improve their utility and worth to a group <STRONG>OUTSIDE</STRONG> of increasing their tanking ability. I have no problem with Guardians being <EM>slightly</EM> better at taking damage but really it should not be particularly noticeable (think Monk HPs, technically we have more, but I'd be hard pressed to prove it making a significant difference).</P> <P>I've no doubt Guardians need utility improvements to make them more desirable, I just don't see improving tanking ability as a solution. Not when we finally have all fight sub-classes able to tank successfully.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And we thank you for your misguided help.  Guardians need more Mitigation. </P> <P>As far as HP's were basically the same here, and that's ok with me.  </P>

[Nemi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Why do you ignore 90% of the posts from guardians stating that we need more Mitigation not more Utility?   Does your EGO allow you to believe that you know what the best way to fix guardians is?</P> <P>You are flat out wrong.  It's a MAJORITY of guardians that are asking for mitigation.  The minority that ask for Utility are dominated by players that do not play guardians, that believe they know what's needed to fix our problems.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well I personally only see a couple asking for it and giving your attitude as spokesman, I can only guess its the same people that picked the class because they though SoE would make em Uber like EQ1.<BR>

[Nemi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Raahl wrote:</P> <P>And we thank you for your misguided help.  Guardians need more Mitigation. </P> <P>As far as HP's were basically the same here, and that's ok with me. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Man you're a hoot :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't mind that Monks have technically more HPs than you because you don't notice it, [Removed for Content] :smileyvery-happy: If it was the other way around and Guardians were supposed to have more HPs, I'm sure you'd be starting a whine thread about that too!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol</DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Raahl wrote:</P> <P>And we thank you for your misguided help.  Guardians need more Mitigation. </P> <P>As far as HP's were basically the same here, and that's ok with me. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Man you're a hoot :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You don't mind that Monks have technically more HPs than you because you don't notice it, [Removed for Content] :smileyvery-happy: If it was the other way around and Guardians were supposed to have more HPs, I'm sure you'd be starting a whine thread about that too!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You are also a hoot.   </P> <P>Nope I've always been one to believe that the fighter types should have around the same HP's.  Really the difference now is really small.  Sometimes the monks have more HP's and sometimes the Guardians have more HP's.  It really depends on what buffs are up and what traits each person picked.</P> <DIV>But I still believe that Guardians need more Mitigation.  Monks Avoid, Guardians Mitigate.  Guardians need more Mitigation.</DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>So you agree Fighters need to have the same HPs, but you believe what? That Guardians need more mitigation..than what? You already have more mitigation than a Monk and we have more Avoidance?</P> <P>Is your beef that Bruisers can get close to your mitigation (when buffed by a Guardian)? Well they only get it for 3mins and during that time their HPs are running down.</P> <P>I fail to see what you are aiming for.</P> <P>You're already the most defensive tank</P> <P>You're already the best all round tank</P> <P>You're still #1 MT for raids.</P> <P>Yet you still feel you need more mitigation? Why?</P>

[Gungo]

because 90% of the posts raahl are from the same 5 gaurdians. i linked a 2 page thread before w many different guardians asking for utility many of those don't post often and fill the board with the same rhetoric. And many still of the casual gaurds don't post on the boards because they don't troll like we do. those people play a few hours or less and couldn't care less to read the rants on these boards. So please raahl explain to everyone how giving guards more mitigation and making guards the best and only tank balances the game and makes all classes desired in groups/solo/raiding. <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 AM</span>

[Mafdet]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>You are flat out wrong.  It's a MAJORITY of guardians that are asking for mitigation.  The minority that ask for Utility are dominated by players that do not play guardians, that believe they know what's needed to fix our problems.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Don't know who's right and who's wrong, but my Guardian would like a little more fun injected into her. I rather like the sound of additional utility and agree that simply asking for a reversal of personal damage mitigation/avoidance most likely won't get us very far. I don't mind others tanking but when they do, I'd like to bring something to the table that's edible.</P> <P>Edited 'cause didn't need that whole thread quote :smileytongue:</P><p>Message Edited by Mafdet on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:17 AM</span>

[Grey-Cat]

Sorry Gungo, gut how can you say it is always the same 5 guardians asking for more mitigation, when wizards are posting in this very forum asking for more mitigation for guards. No one likes their guardians getting squished it isn't good for anyone in the group.<span><blockquote><hr>HairyDustBall wrote:Being a wizard I understand where the Guardians are coming from, I picked Wizard because wizard/warlock was supose to be top DPs and with no abilty to tank or take a hit.  Soloing should be bit harder since I have a high chance of being 1 -2 hit but in groups I should be the choice for DPS becuase its the only role I play.  I see Guardians at the otherend of the scale the are Supose to give up dps and utility makeing soloing slower and being able to fill only the role of Tank in a group but do it the best.  Right now guardian is not much better at tanking as other warrior classes and has nothing else to offer so they are gimped compared to other classes.  Please give the Guardians something to make them worth being picked a little extra mit would go a long way. <hr></blockquote></span><div></div>

[Nemi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grey-Cat wrote:<BR>Sorry Gungo, gut how can you say it is always the same 5 guardians asking for more mitigation, when wizards are posting in this very forum asking for more mitigation for guards. No one likes their guardians getting squished it isn't good for anyone in the group.<SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> HairyDustBall wrote:<BR>Right now guardian is not much better at tanking as other warrior classes and has nothing else to offer so they are gimped compared to other classes.  Please give the Guardians something to make them worth being picked a little extra mit would go a long way.<BR><BR><BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Um, that quote from a Wizard states that Guardians are better tanks than other fighters. It goes on to say they offer nothing else and makes a plea for something extra. That would utility for me, they are already better than other fighters, as our friend the Wizard you quoted agrees.</STRONG></FONT><BR>

[Gungo]

you are right grey-cat it was an abitrary number my point in that post though wasnt the exact number but that many of the posts askign for mititgation are from the same people. But you brought it up so lets go with it. You picked a wizard to be the best dps. But that wizard is not always the best dps. There are many areas where a warlok does more dps and areas where an assasin or ranger do more dps. where is the point where other fighters are the best tank? i am not asking for brawlers to be the best tank. i am saying guards are the best tank and increasing thier tanking ability will only make other fighters less adequate. Guardians need utility liek you said in order to help thier desireablity in solo and small groups. because at the moment guards are the preferred main tank. until i start to see other fighters preferred over gaurdians in raids i am going to have to call B.S. that guards do not tank better. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>nice nemi i was typing the same thing that wizard he quoted said gaurds tank better and he basically said they needed something else to increase there desireablity. Increasing tanking wil not help out the soloing grouping gaurd, whereas increasing utility will.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:57 AM</span>

[Balmore]

<div></div><p>Please, we need some fixed or adjustments to MD. Here is what I suggest:- Put an initial high threat AOE taunt when this art is cast. App1 -> 400 ~ 700 threat for example.- OR remove the root requirement and give it an initial AOE taunt in range of 300 ~ 500.- OR reduce Rescue down time for Guardians, only.</p><p>MD is useless if you get warded. No incoming damage so no reactive taunts. UNLESS OUR BELOVED BRAWLERS AND CRUSADERS SEE THAT BEING FAIR.We at least want decent taunts that really make us protect out group members. To be true Guardians that guard. We want to give our groups the GUARDING feel.By the way, having a second Guardian in offensive stance is worse than having Monk, Bruiser, SK or Pally in offensive stance.Brawlers do better damage in DPS mode, Crusaders have heal and ward. So ... why have a second Guardian in your group?I grouped with a Bruiser with my Monk. We rocked. One in offensive and one in defensive.</p><p>Two Guardians in same groups one in offensive and the other in defensive? Tell me about it, lol.</p>Btw, I welcome the Brawlers and Crusaders (who are topping the Guardians in numbers, lol) in the Guardians' board!<p>Thank you!</p>

[Nemi]

<P>I agree they need to fix the Maddening Defense line with respect to wards.</P> <P>I agree you could use a second rescue spell, perhaps AoE.</P> <P>I further agree you could remove the root and replace it with a high level slow.</P> <P>And shockingly, I agree Guardians could use a DPS increase, especially in offensive stance (along with Pallies too).</P> <P>I just don't agree you need Tanking improvements.</P>

[Gungo]

I agree w nemi as well guardians never did stack well even prerevamp. That is one of the issues increasing utility will fix, where as increasing tanking will not.

[Gungo]

highest lvl mob in game i have seen is terrorantula lvl 64 in sinking sands that means yes it is yellow. Although i do believe the twin dragons (2 lvl 65 npcs in majdul) are lvl 65 part of the reason i didn't want soe to change the con range from 5 to 4. That will now make the twin dragons  low orange con nonetheless avodiance always had a massive drop against higher com mobs. The increase in orange con strength will defintely make this raid harder for all. <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-22-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>08:30 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:30 AM</span>

[Gladesman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <P>I further agree you could remove the root and replace it with a high level slow.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>With removing the root they can also add in a knock-back resist!! :smileyhappy:</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>By the way, we have two other buffs that "slow" us tremendously so adding a slow onto MD is not exactly a good solution either. I would really rather have the root and a knock-back/down resist built in. I can easily toggle MD after every fight it's just that with all these stupid knock-backs I constantly get the whole MD spell doesn't make much sense anymore - aside from not being able to see/hit the mob myself and having to reposition (ie: switch MD on and off multiple times per fight..), the mob also doesn't see me anymore and often starts hitting on someone else standing closer / hitting it / healing me thus eliminating the whole effect of the spell.</FONT></P>

[Nemi]

Chance to resist Knockback sounds like a good skill for Guardians, we avoid the knockbacks, you resist em. Sounds good.

[Balmore]

<div></div>Resist knockbacks would really rock along the way.Because it's a hassle to root - get knocked - ranger gets aggro, lol - you un-root then... lol.

[Grey-Cat]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nemi wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Grey-Cat wrote:Sorry Gungo, gut how can you say it is always the same 5 guardians asking for more mitigation, when wizards are posting in this very forum asking for more mitigation for guards. No one likes their guardians getting squished it isn't good for anyone in the group.<span> <blockquote> <hr> HairyDustBall wrote:Right now guardian is not much better at tanking as other warrior classes and has nothing else to offer so they are gimped compared to other classes.  Please give the Guardians something to make them worth being picked a little extra mit would go a long way. <hr> </blockquote></span> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote><font color="#ffff00"><strong>Um, that quote from a Wizard states that Guardians are better tanks than other fighters. It goes on to say they offer nothing else and makes a plea for something extra. That would utility for me, they are already better than other fighters, as our friend the Wizard you quoted agrees.</strong></font> <div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff0000">I think you are misinterpreting what the wizard said. He was saying not that guardians are the best tank, but that they need more mitigation. The something extra he is asking for is more mitigation. He clearly says Gaurdians should be on the opposite end of the spectrum from wizards having little utility and just taking hits.</font></span><div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <P>So you agree Fighters need to have the same HPs, but you believe what? That Guardians need more mitigation..than what? You already have more mitigation than a Monk and we have more Avoidance?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes Guardians need more Mitigation.   We have slightly more mitigation than a Monk, where a monk has a lot more Avoidance than a guardian.   I'm asking for guardians (and other plate tanks) to be able to do what they are suppose to, mitigate damage.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Nemi wrote: <P>Is your beef that Bruisers can get close to your mitigation (when buffed by a Guardian)? Well they only get it for 3mins and during that time their HPs are running down.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I hadn't thought about brawlers being buffed by a guardian.  That should increase their mitigation even more.  Why don't you post a screenshot of you buffed with and without your 3 minute buff.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote: <P>I fail to see what you are aiming for.</P> <P>You're already the most defensive tank</P> <P>You're already the best all round tank</P> <P>You're still #1 MT for raids.</P> <P>Yet you still feel you need more mitigation? Why?<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm aiming for guardians to do what they are suppose to do, which is mitigate.  Guardians mitigation is too low.</P> <P>Wrong, Avoidance tanks are better defensive tanks, because they avoid more and take slightly more damage per hit.  So while you do get hit for more each time you are hit, that is far outweighed by you getting hit less.</P> <P>Wrong again, Guardians are power sinks for healers, we don't hold aggro any better than any other tank, we cannot heal ourselves, we get stunned/stiffled often.</P> <P>Wrong yet again, with us getting stunned/stiffled we cannot hold aggro and we drain healers power more.</P> <P>Because our mitigation is too low.  We get hit a lot more than an avoidance tank and for only slightly less damage.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 PM</span>

[Nemi]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes Guardians need more Mitigation.   We have slightly more mitigation than a Monk, where a monk has a lot more Avoidance than a guardian.   I'm asking for guardians (and other plate tanks) to be able to do what they are suppose to, mitigate damage.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Well I only have 25% mitigation and I'm sure Guardians have substantially more than that.</STRONG></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>I hadn't thought about brawlers being buffed by a guardian.  That should increase their mitigation even more.  Why don't you post a screenshot of you buffed with and without your 3 minute buff.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I'm a monk, I don't have the Bruiser +mitigation CA. However, the screenshot posted by Tuna comparing Guardian and Bruiser showing very little difference, was with a Guardian buffing the Bruiser. So in essence you are still better because you can drop the Bruiser and have another buffer in the group.</STRONG></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm aiming for guardians to do what they are suppose to do, which is mitigate.  Guardians mitigation is too low.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Subjective I think. I can only state my guild Guardians haven't complained about their tanking, only that they don't really do anything else.</STRONG></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong, Avoidance tanks are better defensive tanks, because they avoid more and take slightly more damage per hit.  So while you do get hit for more each time you are hit, that is far outweighed by you getting hit less.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Again I can only compare me tanking with my guild guardians tanking, and we don't see any noticeable difference. Except in multiple mob pulls where my guildie has FAR less problem than I do holding aggro.</STRONG></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong again, Guardians are power sinks for healers, we don't hold aggro any better than any other tank, we cannot heal ourselves, we get stunned/stiffled often.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I can heal myself for 21% of my hitpoints every 3 mins, which is llike 1 extra heal from a priest every 3 mins. And if I need to use my heal things have gone belly up anyway.</STRONG></FONT></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong yet again, with us getting stunned/stiffled we cannot hold aggro and we drain healers power more.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Strange you are asking for mitigation then, because it won't stop you getting stunned and stifled.</FONT> </STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because our mitigation is too low.  We get hit a lot more than an avoidance tank and for only slightly less damage.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I think you should be asking for an innate resistance to stuns/stifles then rather than mitigation.</STRONG></FONT><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Raahl on <SPAN class=date_text>09-22-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:06 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gungo]

<P>haha raahl  many other guards agree gaurds are still the best tank, actually most guilds do as well since you still tank all raids. I think you are in denial stage now.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________</P> <P>Whats the point of this thread?  We are the best tanks right now even with the changes.  If its about our dps its still high, you still have an attack that can do 1k damage.  Quit whining, so you have to work a little harder to hold aggro, so what its still not that hard once you figure it out.</P> <P></P> <DIV>Katriniti - Level 50-two Guardian<BR>Dark Horizon - The Bazaar Server<BR><A href="http://www.dhguild.com/" target=_blank>www.dhguild.com</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ____________</DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes Guardians need more Mitigation.   We have slightly more mitigation than a Monk, where a monk has a lot more Avoidance than a guardian.   I'm asking for guardians (and other plate tanks) to be able to do what they are suppose to, mitigate damage.</BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Well I only have 25% mitigation and I'm sure Guardians have substantially more than that.</STRONG></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>What level are you Nemi, because a level 42 monk has screenshots up with them at 34.3%</FONT></STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P>I hadn't thought about brawlers being buffed by a guardian.  That should increase their mitigation even more.  Why don't you post a screenshot of you buffed with and without your 3 minute buff.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I'm a monk, I don't have the Bruiser +mitigation CA. However, the screenshot posted by Tuna comparing Guardian and Bruiser showing very little difference, was with a Guardian buffing the Bruiser. So in essence you are still better because you can drop the Bruiser and have another buffer in the group.</STRONG></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Hadn't seen those screenshots.  Tuna was probably trying to show how the bruiser is a better MT with a guardian as an OT.</FONT></STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm aiming for guardians to do what they are suppose to do, which is mitigate.  Guardians mitigation is too low.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Subjective I think. I can only state my guild Guardians haven't complained about their tanking, only that they don't really do anything else.</STRONG></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Then you are not reading all of the threads or posts.  Because there are a number of them stating that mitigation is our number one problem.  Most are not complaining that they don't do anything else.  They are saying we don't do anything else, we tank.  Which means we want to be able to tank, hense more mitigation.</FONT></STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong, Avoidance tanks are better defensive tanks, because they avoid more and take slightly more damage per hit.  So while you do get hit for more each time you are hit, that is far outweighed by you getting hit less.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>Again I can only compare me tanking with my guild guardians tanking, and we don't see any noticeable difference. Except in multiple mob pulls where my guildie has FAR less problem than I do holding aggro.</STRONG></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>I believe we all have problems keeping aggro in multiple mob pulls.</FONT></STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong again, Guardians are power sinks for healers, we don't hold aggro any better than any other tank, we cannot heal ourselves, we get stunned/stiffled often.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I can heal myself for 21% of my hitpoints every 3 mins, which is llike 1 extra heal from a priest every 3 mins. And if I need to use my heal things have gone belly up anyway.</STRONG></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Add in that you take overall less damage and it can make a difference.</FONT></STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong yet again, with us getting stunned/stiffled we cannot hold aggro and we drain healers power more.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Strange you are asking for mitigation then, because it won't stop you getting stunned and stifled.</FONT> </STRONG></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>This is a separate issue, which I brought up to illustrate why we are not better MT's.  Not sure what the best way to fix that is.  Guess they could raise our mitigation, but then that wouldn't be right.</FONT></STRONG></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because our mitigation is too low.  We get hit a lot more than an avoidance tank and for only slightly less damage.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>I think you should be asking for an innate resistance to stuns/stifles then rather than mitigation.</STRONG></FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Again it's a different issue.  Resistance to stuns/stifles would not address the issue with mitigation.</FONT></STRONG><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Raahl on <SPAN class=date_text>09-22-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:06 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Guil]

<P>I have to say, well done Corvan. Thanks for listing this for the devs. Im sure they wont look at it, but thanks anyway for the list.</P> <P> </P> <P>My BIGGEST beef with the changes is that as a Guardian, i dont feel like im the best choice for tanking. Thats just messed up. Why shouldnt the defensive warrior be the best tank. Guardians taunts should work the best out of all the other classes because well, what else do we have?  IMO, we should have the Most Hps, the best mitigation, and taunts that work well. Avoidance, whats that? I dont need that, i dont CARE if i get hit. i have all this fancy armor that takes the damage for me and a shield just for good measure. RIGHT? </P> <DIV>Wrong. Mitigation is fugged up atm. Avoidance is not. Fix mitigation and alot of this whining about plate tanks not being as good as other tank types will taper off. People will still whine, but only that our DPS is still so crappy. Im ok with no DPS. If i wanted DPS i would have played a Bruiser or a Zerker. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I chose DEFENSIVE warrior because i wanted to tank. I want to be a big, heavily armored,slow, no dps having, TANK. Let the other people have DPS and fancy skills to use while i get beat on. I dont care. I just want the Defensive warrior SOE promised. Not some watered down version of a tank. Other tanks get plate, but the guard should use it to its fullest extent. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i want:</DIV> <DIV>1) Taunts that do something besides. Generates X threat. wheres the utility? wheres my stifle, or interrupt.</DIV> <DIV>2) Tower shields with actual, tangible differences from kite shields. What good is having acess to big [Removed for Content] shields, if some kite shield half the size does the same thing.</DIV> <DIV>3) The most HPs. This should be a no brainer. The lack of DPS should be made up in the ability to tank, longer. Aka the most mitigation and the most Hps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, just my 2 cp.</DIV>

[Gungo]

and just liek there are a few guards askign to be the best tank by a massive margin there are many gaurds asking for utility instead heck even the guard who posted above me wanted utility on his taunts although he also wanted to tank way better as well. the fact is there can be no balance w 1 tank overpower all the others. It wasn't prerevamp so why ask for it now. Many guards said prerevamp you were overpowered. increasing your tanking again will only do the same. <p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:50 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> and just liek there are a few guards askign to be the best tank by a massive margin there are many gaurds asking for utility instead heck even the guard who posted above me wanted utility on his taunts although he also wanted to tank way better as well. the fact is there can be no balance w 1 tank overpower all the others. It wasn't prerevamp so why ask for it now. Many guards said prerevamp you were overpowered. increasing your tanking again will only do the same. <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:50 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why did you ignore that he'a also asking for mitigation to be fixed?</P> <P>A guardian's core reason for being is to mitigate, IMO.  And Mitigation is too low for a guardian and probably for any plate wearing tank.</P>

[Gungo]

i didn't ignore him i directly replied to him please use some comprehension when you read.

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> and just liek there are a few guards askign to be the best tank by a massive margin there are many gaurds asking for utility instead heck even the guard who posted above me wanted utility on his taunts although he also wanted to tank way better as well. the fact is there can be no balance w 1 tank overpower all the others. It wasn't prerevamp so why ask for it now. Many guards said prerevamp you were overpowered. increasing your tanking again will only do the same. <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:50 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>What he's asking for sounds realistic to me, in real life a tower shield would block more than a measly kite shield...example romans.</P> <P>Only problem I have with out taunts atm is the resists other than that they work fine, do they need utility added to them?  Probably not because we have other attacks with side effects like knockdowns, stifles etc. I'd rather see them give us a ranged attack for pulling, that way our bows can be a little more useful.</P>

[lazlo1]

Just to add to guardians numbers the <b>main </b>issue I have after revamp. Guardians need more mitigation. We should have a =>  difference in mitigation than a monk/bruiser has in avoidance. Other <b>seperate </b>issues than might need a look.   Tower shields Some sort of stun/stifle help  (both ways). Offensive stance could be better.  I actually like to off tank sometimes go figure. Two guards in a group are still worse than almost any 2 other chars fighter or not. Root arts are a pain make them snares (snare part doesnt stack) just to reduce button pushes. Currently it almost a twitch game to move around toggleing MD all the time. But the bottom line: A little mitigation would go a long way to making a happy guardian. Slight off topic but releated. The big problem I have since revamp is some named mobs in instance dungeons seem outa line with the rest of the dungeon.  I got completely owned by a named  barely yellow (1-2 lvls) in a 50-51 1 healer group. We tried a few times but had no chance. I have decent gear and I tried all buff combos. They need to brought inline with the rest of the dungeon. I think they should be harder and even risky, just not undoable when you have cleared the rest of the instance easily.  Two healers might have done it but thats a pain. Tone them down a little, bump plate mitigation a tad, and things would be much better. <div></div>

[SkySava]

<P>The OP is right on target here. While I do my job o.k. I find myself wishing I'd have played another fighter class. Not because they are better at X or Y but because we don't do anything "fun" anymore. Monkies do cool moves, Pally's help people with healing, SK's can nail the mob with an HT and do some cool spells, Bruisers knock people down and stun em like crazy, and Barbs truly do kick some frenzy raging butt. What do I do? Well, nothing really. I'm so-so at all the other things those fighters can do and mostly much less then them. If I was the only one who could use Tower Shields and Vanguard Armor (that's what I thought when I chose my class in the first place) then it would give me something at least to make me different. No way would I pick a guardian to start with. The other classes just seem do be so much cooler.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Ps.</P> <P>  </P>

[SkySava]

<P>The OP is right on target here. While I do my job o.k. I find myself wishing I'd have played another fighter class. Not because they are better at X or Y but because we don't do anything "fun" anymore. Monkies do cool moves, Pally's help people with healing, SK's can nail the mob with an HT and do some cool spells, Bruisers knock people down and stun em like crazy, and Barbs truly do kick some frenzy raging butt. What do I do? Well, nothing really. I'm so-so at all the other things those fighters can do and mostly much less then them. If I was the only one who could use Tower Shields and Vanguard Armor (that's what I thought when I chose my class in the first place) then it would give me something at least to make me different. No way would I pick a guardian to start with. The other classes just seem do be so much cooler.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Ps.</P> <P>   </P>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Raahl wrote: <P>You are flat out wrong.  It's a MAJORITY of guardians that are asking for mitigation.  The minority that ask for Utility are dominated by players that do not play guardians, that believe they know what's needed to fix our problems.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>They (and you) are asking for mitigation because they flat out KNOW that if they get it in the amount required to make a difference, they'll be the only tank again.  The end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians can hit the mitigation buffed capped, that's good enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We ignore the people asking for it, because it would be overpowering, game-breaking, encounter trivializing and we JUST got over 10 months of that crap and we don't want to go back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Utility is something you guys need more of though.<BR></DIV>

[SkySava]

<P>The OP is right on target here. While I do my job o.k. I find myself wishing I'd have played another fighter class. Not because they are better at X or Y but because we don't do anything "fun" anymore. Monkies do cool moves, Pally's help people with healing, SK's can nail the mob with an HT and do some cool spells, Bruisers knock people down and stun em like crazy, and Barbs truly do kick some frenzy raging butt. What do I do? Well, nothing really. I'm so-so at all the other things those fighters can do and mostly much less then them. If I was the only one who could use Tower Shields and Vanguard Armor (that's what I thought when I chose my class in the first place) then it would give me something at least to make me different. No way would I pick a guardian to start with. The other classes just seem do be so much cooler.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Ps.</P> <P>    Give us back our fluffy looking Reinforcment pet! <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I miss him from beta <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> /cry He was so neat and fun!</P>

[Krooner]

<P>Sky    /agree</P> <P>It was SOE's "Vision" for us when the game came out for us to be the heavy plate wearing fighters.</P> <P>That was suppose to be our defining trait, not some watered down utility spell.</P> <P>I like having my healers on their feet and plate would have been fine for them.. but letting them wear Vanguard?  that was dumb.</P> <P> </P>

[RafaelSmith]

My final thoughts on this whole revamp and what it did to my character.... I never had a problem with the Archetype system in theory.  If they intended for there to be 6 interchangable fighters fine as long as each one didnt constantly wish they were one of the others. Thats where I am today....Since starting EQ2 at release I never regretted my class choice...I saw the cool things some of the other fighters had and such but never caused me to rethink my choice. Today all I can think each time I group is that I made the wrong choice...I am the absolute worse choice for my group.  EQ2 is now designed such that no fighter is considered the only tank as it should be...only they left Guardian designed as though it belongs in a game where there is only one tank. There is nothing SOE can do to fix that now except go back to the way things were before which isnt right either. <div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Raahl wrote: <P>You are flat out wrong.  It's a MAJORITY of guardians that are asking for mitigation.  The minority that ask for Utility are dominated by players that do not play guardians, that believe they know what's needed to fix our problems.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>They (and you) are asking for mitigation because they flat out KNOW that if they get it in the amount required to make a difference, they'll be the only tank again.  The end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians can hit the mitigation buffed capped, that's good enough.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We ignore the people asking for it, because it would be overpowering, game-breaking, encounter trivializing and we JUST got over 10 months of that crap and we don't want to go back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Utility is something you guys need more of though.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Am I asking for the Mitigation cap to be raised?  Nope, the cap is there to make sure we don't become overpowered.</P> <P>Guardians that are hitting the cap are not your average guardian.  If sony was to make fabled/legendary items the norm then we wouldn't probably have any issues.  I really hope they don't.  I hope they fix our class for the average player in average equipment.</P> <P>In your opinion it would be overpowering and game-breaking.  In fact it will be a good start to fixing the problems with the guardian class.</P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>No one wants to be overpowered, we just want our mitigation on par with monks/bruisers avoidance...Gunga the Brawler and Gaige the monk can claim what they want now, Guards are NOT the best tank atm, and they are deff. gimped when it comes to mitigation.  And MOST guardians still want to TANK better, they wanted utility they would be crusaders...</P> <P>Fix the mitigation and 90percent of the rants Guards are going thrue right now will end...Simple.  Fix the tower sheilds vs. kite sheild problem and you find yourself with more happy customers.  My guild has already lost 3 guardians since combat revamp, and I see more dropping out too.  A message from the Dervs to give us hope might ease this flight from the game.</P> <P>If not, BRING ON THE SERVER COMBINES!!! and lets go Vanguard!!!</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Gaige]

<P>I don't think I've ever been over 2100 mitigation since the patch w/o my stun buff.  that's like 42% percent I think.  I'm normally around 2k mit which is 40%.  I've seen plenty of guardians between 3200 and 4000.  That's hovering right around the cap.</P> <P>I normally have between 66 and 70% avoidance buffed as MT in a group.  Guardians are what, typically between 35 and 40%.</P> <P>Sounds right to me.</P> <P>Especially considering mitigation > avoidance.</P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Then fix the cap, or fix the value of mitigation...Regardless of what the numbers say most guards cant do the job they have always done, and if they can manage it, they do it much more poorly then other tank classes.  </P> <P>And in almost full fabled, my self buffed Mitigation in defensive stance is less then 3k...with the 30second buffs i can get it to about 3200...for 30 seconds...I feel for those not in full fabled.</P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>Then fix the cap, or fix the value of mitigation...Regardless of what the numbers say most guards cant do the job they have always done, and if they can manage it, they do it much more poorly then other tank classes. </P> <P>And in almost full fabled, my self buffed Mitigation in defensive stance is less then 3k...with the 30second buffs i can get it to about 3200...for 30 seconds...I feel for those not in full fabled.</P> <P>Covenant</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Hmm, I wonder what my guild guardians are doing different then.  Because I know they are tanking for xp groups just fine, and they routinely have between 3200 and 3700 mit.<BR>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> TanRaistlyn wrote: <div></div> <p>Then fix the cap, or fix the value of mitigation...Regardless of what the numbers say most guards cant do the job they have always done, and if they can manage it, they do it much more poorly then other tank classes. </p> <p>And in almost full fabled, my self buffed Mitigation in defensive stance is less then 3k...with the 30second buffs i can get it to about 3200...for 30 seconds...I feel for those not in full fabled.</p> <p>Covenant</p> <hr> </blockquote>Hmm, I wonder what my guild guardians are doing different then.  Because I know they are tanking for xp groups just fine, and they routinely have between 3200 and 3700 mit. <div></div><hr></blockquote> You crack me up sometimes Gaige... The guardians in your guild dont represent the majority of us out there, hell  your guild doesnt represent the majority of the playerbase....Thats not intended as an insult its just fact...you all have gear way beyond what I will ever see. Those of us not decked in Fabled got the short end of the stick on this revamp.  Funny thing is we are expected to  XP on the same mobs.   Mobs dont scale down based on the "con" of the players =P </span><div></div>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Perhaps they have buffs from other classes on em like Mystics and Wardens, regardless I never said I COULDNT tank during an Exp group I just cant do it as well as Other fighter classes.  For someone who fought so hard for Fighter Balancing, I would think you would be on this bandwagon to make Guards at least on Par with other classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>

[Gungo]

we are asking for fighter balance, but in the form of utility to make up for the lack of utility guards have.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR>You crack me up sometimes Gaige... The guardians in your guild dont represent the majority of us out there, hell  your guild doesnt represent the majority of the playerbase....Thats not intended as an insult its just fact...you all have gear way beyond what I will ever see.<BR><BR>Those of us not decked in Fabled got the short end of the stick on this revamp.  Funny thing is we are expected to  XP on the same mobs.   Mobs dont scale down based on the "con" of the players =P</SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I realize that, but I compare myself (not fully fabled) to our guardians who are, so I figure if that comparison is okay, then it should be on down the line.  /shrug<BR>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote: <blockquote> <hr> RafaelSmith wrote:<span>You crack me up sometimes Gaige... The guardians in your guild dont represent the majority of us out there, hell  your guild doesnt represent the majority of the playerbase....Thats not intended as an insult its just fact...you all have gear way beyond what I will ever see.Those of us not decked in Fabled got the short end of the stick on this revamp.  Funny thing is we are expected to  XP on the same mobs.   Mobs dont scale down based on the "con" of the players =P</span> <hr> </blockquote>I realize that, but I compare myself (not fully fabled) to our guardians who are, so I figure if that comparison is okay, then it should be on down the line.  /shrug <div></div><hr></blockquote>Except it appears despite what SOE claims that it doesnt exactly scale "on down the line".  XP mobs for the most part and especially single group heroics seem designed to be done by players in Fabled/AD3.   When DoF went line all level 50 players had to start xping on the same mobs...regardless if they were in Fabled or LOR gear =P </span><div></div>

[Nemi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>Then fix the cap, or fix the value of mitigation...Regardless of what the numbers say most guards cant do the job they have always done, and if they can manage it, they do it much more poorly then other tank classes.  </P> <P>And in almost full fabled, my self buffed Mitigation in defensive stance is less then 3k...with the 30second buffs i can get it to about 3200...for 30 seconds...I feel for those not in full fabled.</P> <P>Covenant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is the problem, you see Guardians never had to play the game before. With stacking buffs and reactive aggro mismanagement, the game was Godmode for Guardians. Now Guardians are still slightly ahead of other tanks but they all of a sudden have to learn the game.</P> <P>You can't look to what you had Pre-DOF and say you can't tank now and be objective, objectively you would realise you were broken pre-dof and now you are ahead of tanks still in tanking, but lacking in utility.</P> <P>I don't forsee a return to the Golden days of Guardian Uberdom Godmode. I do see a case for perhaps a DPS increase in offensive and further utility to benefits groups/solo.</P> <P> </P>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR>we are asking for fighter balance, but in the form of utility to make up for the lack of utility guards have. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>See, they're asking for balance because they dont tank as well as other fighters.  You still claim they've got a tanking edge, which they might at 60 in full fabled, but it isnt materializing during xp groups.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive seen every other class tank for 50+ mobs and the other classes seem to do better than the guards.  Agro management and healing seem to go smoother with other tanks.  I cant imagine wanting to take a guard for a pick up group over any other tank available, even one a couple of levels lower.</DIV>

[lazlo1]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nemi wrote: <blockquote> <hr> TanRaistlyn wrote: <p>Then fix the cap, or fix the value of mitigation...Regardless of what the numbers say most guards cant do the job they have always done, and if they can manage it, they do it much more poorly then other tank classes.  </p> <p>And in almost full fabled, my self buffed Mitigation in defensive stance is less then 3k...with the 30second buffs i can get it to about 3200...for 30 seconds...I feel for those not in full fabled.</p> <p>Covenant</p> <hr> </blockquote> <p>This is the problem, you see Guardians never had to play the game before. With stacking buffs and reactive aggro mismanagement, the game was Godmode for Guardians. Now Guardians are still slightly ahead of other tanks but they all of a sudden have to learn the game.</p> <p>You can't look to what you had Pre-DOF and say you can't tank now and be objective, objectively you would realise you were broken pre-dof and now you are ahead of tanks still in tanking, but lacking in utility.</p> <p>I don't forsee a return to the Golden days of Guardian Uberdom Godmode. I do see a case for perhaps a DPS increase in offensive and further utility to benefits groups/solo.</p> <hr></blockquote></span><span></span><span>Seems to me all fighters got reactive heal agro. Exactly how did that help guardians more than others? </span><span>As much as I dont agree with what  Gaige says, he at least sounds reasonable and intelligent. </span><span>In your posts you sound like someone who truly <b>hates </b>guardians. </span><span></span><span>Looks to me like you will say anything to keep guardians beat down, no matter if it's true or relates (heal agro bug). Guardians do not agree that we are better tanks than brawlers, this is where the problem lies. You can say it all you want. Dont make it true. </span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dparker713 wrote:<BR><BR>See, they're asking for balance because they dont tank as well as other fighters.  You still claim they've got a tanking edge, which they might at 60 in full fabled, but it isnt materializing during xp groups.  <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Wrong.  My impression is that most guardians are asking for utility because they are behind a bit in comparison to other fighters when it comes to utility to offer the group when not tanking.  A *reason* to pick a guardian over a monk for a certain zone, or a certain encounter.  A must have buff or ability that makes people think "guardian".</P> <P>That is what is missing.  </P> <P>Also a little DPS maybe.</P> <P>They can effectively tank, anyone asking for more mitigation and more defense yadda yadda wants to be a superior above all go to guy only tank.</P> <P>They don't want balance.<BR></P>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>I disagree, I personally think Guardians should be the best tank.  Not the only one able to tank, but the best "tanking" class all around.  Asking for mitigation to go up, or cap to go up, or to fix the mitigation seems right and just to me, and most other Guards.  Perhaps not to a Monk or a Bruiser but certainly to us...</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Erendil]

<DIV>I can play my guardian. If I'm in a group, we can kill most mobs that a group would expect to kill. If I'm solo, I can kill blue white and some yello solo mobs................VERY Slowly..........If I dont draw aggro running through zones, I live.....if I only aggro 1 mob while I run away, I usually live.......</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My dps sucks..........long slow kills.....</DIV> <DIV>My mitigation/avoidance sucks..........I take a decent amount of damage from everything i fight......</DIV> <DIV>My taunts are weak.......if I use my single taunt, my group taunt and MD right away, I can lock aggro.......If we get adds and my      taunts are down, its hell trying to get aggro (not to mention that I need to turn off MD, move to the mobs, try to draw aggro and MD again) (My Deafen is at adept 3, my MD is, of course, Master 2)</DIV> <DIV>I have 3 stifles/stuns, 1 of which (retaliates pacify) effect, I have never really seen have any impact whatsoever, the 2nd and best(staggering slam)-is not usable if I am not MT ( as an off tank, I vainly try to improve dps by using a 2 handed weapon)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After dying while trying to run from mobs and getting stunned by 1 again for far longer than I've ever been able to stun anyone, I quit that char for the night and went over to my ranger.....He is level 30 and far outdamages my 51 guardian.  I'm not going to say hes a better tank- but in a group with 1 healer and 1 caster, he held his own against blue heroics...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is frustrating day after day to watch casters and other tanks breezing through fights that take me forever....to have warlocks telling me how they can still solo 47 heroics easily, to hear about 51 bruisers soloing blue heroics.......while my guard has to run from green heroics 8 levels below him before they are halfway dead...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line, I will mostly be playing my ranger now, except when grouping with friends, as my guardian feels pretty useless and is not fun to play. You can say all you want about how we picked guards because they were uber...its simply not true....palis were a far better soloer, zerkers were far better in groups./...I didnt pick my guard based on what hed be doing at 50...I picked him to protect groups.....unfortunately, I dont do that very well anymore, and most of the other tanks do it better...in addition to being better soloers...(and when the next promising looking game comes out, I will be gone, unless they do something to make guards fun again...it makes no sense that we suck at soloing, are so-so at grouping AND are no longer the tp choice for a raid tank.....we have NOTHING now)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ventrous 51 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Steadfast 30 Ranger</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Ellequently Put, from the mouth of an obvious casual gamer.../lifts glass, heres to hoping they fix Guardians and FAST.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <P>Wrong.  My impression is that most guardians are asking for utility because they are behind a bit in comparison to other fighters when it comes to utility to offer the group when not tanking.  A *reason* to pick a guardian over a monk for a certain zone, or a certain encounter.  A must have buff or ability that makes people think "guardian".<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your impression is wrong.  Most guardians have asked for more mitigation and improved taunts.  In that order.<BR>

[Tyrion]

<DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gaige~</P> <P>"They can effectively tank, anyone asking for more mitigation and more defense yadda yadda wants to be a superior above all go to guy only tank.</P> <P>They don't want balance."</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>/Agree</P> <P>We don't need more mitigation. I'm sorry, but I have had no problems in groups in regards to taking too much damage, unless we fight stuff that is way too difficult for our level. I also have had no problem holding aggro either, and I didn't even take Master 2 Maddening defence. Protect, Deafen, Maddening Defence, Taunting Assault, Commanding Presence....awesome aggro tools that have served me well these past few weeks.</P> <P>I'm beginning to think a lot of my fellow Guardians....well, just suck.</P> <P>You guys used the ~bugged~ (key word there) stacking of our life/defence buffs and taunts to keep you afloat. Now that we've been ~FIXED~, NOT nerfed, many of you are having trouble. I'm not in fabled, I'm not even in ebon. I've been tanking group heroics up to 54 just fine in rubicite/magma forged with a good group of people around me. Some fights are harder than others, but not once have I thought to myself: "I need more mitigaiton and taunts". Nope.</P> <P>I'm feeling less and less sorry for Guardians players the more I read these boards. I support a small DPS increase, and more utility, but defenitely not more mitigation or taunts.</P></DIV>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P> I've been tanking group heroics up to 54 just fine in rubicite/magma forged with a good group of people around me. Some fights are harder than others, but not once have I thought to myself: "I need more mitigaiton and taunts". Nope.</P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Meanwhile, groups Ive been in with other class tanks think nothing of going up against mobs 8-10 levels above the level of the tank.  Therein lies the problem.</DIV>

[Tyrion]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dparker713 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P></P> <HR> <P> I've been tanking group heroics up to 54 just fine in rubicite/magma forged with a good group of people around me. Some fights are harder than others, but not once have I thought to myself: "I need more mitigaiton and taunts". Nope.</P></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Meanwhile, groups Ive been in with other class tanks think nothing of going up against mobs 8-10 levels above the level of the tank.  Therein lies the problem.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then how successful are they? If other tank classes are really that much better, then I would have their mitigation reduced, rather than our increased. Right now, Gaurdians are good in the mitigation and aggro parts of the game, and we're promoted as "defensive" tanks. IF Monks and Bruisers are pushing the envelope when it comes to these two areas, mitigation in particular, it nees to be FIXED...</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>You might be able to get the job done tanking, as all of us can.  The problem lies in the fact that we get it done poorer then other "Tank" classes.  A bruiser can take less damage, and do more damage, SOOOOoooo...even tho we could pull off tanking in a group, why would you want a guard when you could have a Bruiser???</P> <P>You said you dont even have ebon armor at level 50, so your not in a raiding guild apparently, and thats fine.  But that also means you have very little comparrison to make your statements.</P> <P>Can we tank if needed?? Sure we can...Are we the best tank or even one of the top three to "tank" a raid mob or even a heroic?? No we are not.  For those of us who spent countless hours learning raid tactics, and leading guilds on these adventures this is a huge, HUGE blow to us, one which wont hit someone like yourself as hard.</P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Styk]

I dunno what gaige is talking about in balance.... Guardians pre CC we overpowered and needed the buff stacking and avoidance to be canned but they were reduced way too far... As of expansion i am sometime worried about being assist in a group if a fellow guardian ( most likely a guildie ) is tanking , you know why? I'll rip agro. I know for a fact that they are skilled players but guards just dont have the taunting ability to maintain agro... their 52 Reinforcement CA is a joke IMO... Was seeing a Guildie in action today and he tried how many times in a row to retake agro with that skill, and it worked about as well as a monkey solving a calculus equation, even with him taunting right afterwards... I totally understand SoE's goal in making the tanks equal but unique and in the most part minus guardians it worked... What is a guardians niche? they seem very lack luster to me.... Their agro generation need to be looked at as well because i really dont want to see guildies quit the game because they feel totally useless... Give Guardians some love SoE they are in really bad shape <div></div>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Seems Pallies too...Lost 2 pallies and 3 guards so far, promising to come back if they unerf plate classes...but this is getting real tuff to handle...</P> <P>This thread is just getting way too long, need to start another one so people dont have to scroll thrue 8pages of [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing to be able to post.</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

[Tyrion]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>You might be able to get the job done tanking, as all of us can.  The problem lies in the fact that we get it done poorer then other "Tank" classes.  A bruiser can take less damage, and do more damage, SOOOOoooo...even tho we could pull off tanking in a group, why would you want a guard when you could have a Bruiser???</P> <P>You said you dont even have ebon armor at level 50, so your not in a raiding guild apparently, and thats fine.  But that also means you have very little comparrison to make your statements.</P> <P>Can we tank if needed?? Sure we can...Are we the best tank or even one of the top three to "tank" a raid mob or even a heroic?? No we are not.  For those of us who spent countless hours learning raid tactics, and leading guilds on these adventures this is a huge, HUGE blow to us, one which wont hit someone like yourself as hard.</P> <P>Covenant</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I have little to compare to? I wasn't aware that raiders were in the majority here. I thought (semi) casual gamers such as I were. That means I have lots of similar players with their tanks to compare to. You on the other hand, have just your raid guild players. If Bruisers are kicking our [Removed for Content] on that front, then best get working on having their mitigation reduced, or our DPS increased. On the grouping front, I'm all fine and dandy, and if DPS is so important for a tank, then as I mentioned before, increase our DPS Soe.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then again, I'm obviously in the minority here, and don't have a clue what I am talking about....right? :smileywink:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tyrion on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 PM</span>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Never said you were a minority or that your opinion never mattered, what I said was you dont have much to compare too.  You dont see other tanks, fighting and grouping and tanking, at least not in large numbers like those in raid guilds...If a casual gamer is on 8-10hrs a weel and tanks an exp group(most likely the only tank in the group most occasions) he really isnt gettin the same exposure as say someone spending 25-30hrs a week in game raiding and seeing lots of different classes in action constantly...That seems pretty reasonable to me dont you think??</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P> <p>Message Edited by TanRaistlyn on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:16 PM</span>

[blueduckie]

IMO instead of boostign guardians please nerf brawlers =D It seemed to work for them tio get us nerfed so id like to start screaming nerf brawlers. Could i meet with devs in person and tell them how much we suck and should be on par with there avoidance and dps. We swing bigger weapons and use a huge shield we could hide behind. Our mit is basically the same so little difference in dmg taken from mobs. Nerf there avoidance and dps. They should dps same as us shouldnt have any advantage defensively or offensivly. Please make there fd have a 10 success chance and mend have 50% chance to hurt them instead of heal them. If they expect us to go slumming they should to IMO. Crusaders are in same boat to worse than guardians so they are fine IMO could use some love like guardians. Hell they all claim you cant have a best at anything or the other 5 are useless. So even us all up please~ NERF BRAWLERS!

[blueduckie]

<DIV>I honeslty think it is too early to ask for stuff yet til we have lvl 60's parsing on raid mobs. I think all old content needs to be lowered in dmg tho. Couldnt Imagine trying darathar with out a lvl 60 tank in t6 rare made stuff at least. He is going to be 1 shotting tanks for sure probably at lvl 60 will be like he was at lvl 50. Plan on finding out at least at 60 to see how it goes. I know brawlers are out tanking us on xp mobs badly. When seeing raid mobs can see if out tank us on raid mobs to.  If they are they need to crank up our shields make mitigation more valuable. If you honestly dont think guardians should tank best then IMO you should look at every other subclass. If you feel it would make you useless again look at every other subclass. predators ownin up in dmg summoners too IMO. But rogues sorcerers enchanters bards still hot hot. Fighters same way. They all bring diff things. The stuns stiffles. Heals more mit to mt lifetaps a lil self succient healing on a raid. Brawlers will by far be best add tanks with avoidance etc atm. Each brings a diff major resist boost. FD's( not broken by dmg now ) mends etc. We didnt choose guardians for those things nor where we designed to have them. We where designed to tank the big boys the best. Doesnt mean should be the only one able to but i definately feel we should take the least total dmg if played right. Thats all i want and if its like that fine if it isnt which it isnt on xp mobs then i think a little should be added to put us right in our place. Each class shouldnt have different advantages none should be the same in anything which includes tanking how big difference is up to designers i think when getting to guardian vs bruiser should be a nitceable difference.</DIV>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <DIV>I honeslty think it is too early to ask for stuff yet til we have lvl 60's parsing on raid mobs. I think all old content needs to be lowered in dmg tho. Couldnt Imagine trying darathar with out a lvl 60 tank in t6 rare made stuff at least. He is going to be 1 shotting tanks for sure probably at lvl 60 will be like he was at lvl 50. Plan on finding out at least at 60 to see how it goes. I know brawlers are out tanking us on xp mobs badly. When seeing raid mobs can see if out tank us on raid mobs to.  If they are they need to crank up our shields make mitigation more valuable. If you honestly dont think guardians should tank best then IMO you should look at every other subclass. If you feel it would make you useless again look at every other subclass. predators ownin up in dmg summoners too IMO. But rogues sorcerers enchanters bards still hot hot. Fighters same way. They all bring diff things. The stuns stiffles. Heals more mit to mt lifetaps a lil self succient healing on a raid. Brawlers will by far be best add tanks with avoidance etc atm. Each brings a diff major resist boost. FD's( not broken by dmg now ) mends etc. We didnt choose guardians for those things nor where we designed to have them. We where designed to tank the big boys the best. Doesnt mean should be the only one able to but i definately feel we should take the least total dmg if played right. Thats all i want and if its like that fine if it isnt which it isnt on xp mobs then i think a little should be added to put us right in our place. Each class shouldnt have different advantages none should be the same in anything which includes tanking how big difference is up to designers i think when getting to guardian vs bruiser should be a nitceable difference.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>WHY parsing against raid Mobs ??? Most of us will never get to MT a raid in our EQ lives , so why should that be the benchmark</P> <P>Soloing againsta 50th Non-heroic Mob , or grping against a 50^^^ Heroic  , that should be the benchmark. If we are not all equal at that , then something is wrong . i couldn't give a monkey's about how guards fair against Raid Mobs.<BR></P>

[Hero]

This is anecdotal in the context of the whole string but... my illusionist is level 23, last night we had an illusionist, a conjourer, a warlock, a wizard and a mystic. My illusionist & the conjourer were tanking ^^^ Yellow Heroic Skeletons in the Dead River Basin is TS plus managing up to 2 adds and were able to tank & kill mobs where by I levelled after 4 hours of play. We tanked with a pet & my Persona (App1). We didnt die until much later on when Giants spawned around us whilst killing Mighty Griffons. I love my Guardian, but do we need to treasure Guardians, Fighter tanks any longer? That would be sad. Snowlion 32 Guardian Voluptuous 23 Illusionist <div></div>

[blueduckie]

<P>Sorry i dont consider soloing a bench mark. Because you choose to be a defensive class and soloing is about killing it before it kills you so dps is king at that and you chose the worst dps class. It should take us the longest to die but i dont think the bench mark of soloing is a even call on our role. Soloing tiers is part of the game if you picked guardian to solo IMHO you picked wrong class. But i can solo yellow cons of non heroics pretty easily. Even those named cons in PoF of solo groups. Xp wasnt bad til they nerfed it. Wish theyd reimplement that. Our job is to tank. Whether more utility would be nice i think main over haul of guardian should be entirely based on dmg we take vs everyone else. I personally along with almost every guardian i know chose to give up dps and utility for what the class should be. I didnt know anything about guardian before making my choice. Just knew it branched off to be most defensive and is what i expect. However they choose to go about it is devchoices. I think making our mitigation shine is key. Because they could learn alot from eqlive.</P> <P>When a mob couldnt 1 round you evasive disc was always the bbest choice because it avoided the most. Defensive just offered a steady but in a pink it couldnt save you as much as evasive could. If any question on me that bring it =p tanked every mob in eqlive cept from new dumb expansion =D</P> <P>Anyhoo with mobs not being 1 shotters since would be impossible for anyone to tank if could. Avoidance owns mitigation unless it is a bigger gap. So that is what they need to adjust. For soloers and group play IMO we are fine. Need to pick right targets. Grouping is no sweat IMO if you are having problems group tanking your def on wrong mobs. Duoing yellow con heroics 3-4 lvls higher than me with an Inquisitor. Dont see how are grouping aspect is fugged up. Im not full fabled and decked out. So i dunno what to say on that angle. I just wanna be able to be a preferred choice on raid mobs until a resist on stance can be a decider. Thats gonna make classes preferred. Making up 1200 to a resist is hard so that gives people slot right there on certain mobs. That is why i dont see why brawlers scream bloody murder to us taking less total melee dmg cause that is only half to tanking. Hell bruisers even probably got the best resist on there stance zerkers also.</P>

[Nemi]

<P>I don't think any Brawler would mind Guardians taking the lowest melee damage in theory. In practice however, it's the gap that is important. For the gap to be significant enough to please Guardians means you relegate other tanks to the sidelines, unless there is 1 mob that requires your resist.</P> <P>Sorry but I don't play a Tank to only tank 1 mob in the game</P>

[b00gjuice]

<span><blockquote><hr>TanRaistlyn wrote:<p>I disagree, I personally think Guardians should be the best tank.  Not the only one able to tank, but the best "tanking" class all around.  Asking for mitigation to go up, or cap to go up, or to fix the mitigation seems right and just to me, and most other Guards.  Perhaps not to a Monk or a Bruiser but certainly to us...</p> <p>Covenant</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>I agree with Tan. Guardians should be the best tank, otherwise they will go away. Now that doesn't mean that other fighters can't be great tanks. But in a Raiding Guild, Fabled armor is few and far between. So you gear up one tank for this duty first. Now this of course would be the Guardian since they "should be" the GUADIANS of a Raid. Now myself, I am a Templar, and I feel that after the revamp we are about equal to Wardens in healing, with my bias leaning towards Templars having the edge. I also am completely adept III (up to 50 anyway) and I feel sorry for those Templars that aren't. Now, my point is that my Guild Leader and Raid Tank is all adept III, mostly fabled armor, and if he is unhappy, then something is wrong here and its my duty to stand by him and say this is not right, fair, or balanced. -Azzo 51 Templar Faydark CoS</span><div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <P>I don't think any Brawler would mind Guardians taking the lowest melee damage in theory. In practice however, it's the gap that is important. For the gap to be significant enough to please Guardians means you relegate other tanks to the sidelines, unless there is 1 mob that requires your resist.</P> <P>Sorry but I don't play a Tank to only tank 1 mob in the game</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Then this means the system is still broken.  If in order for a guardian to be fixed tanking wise it, breaks all the other classes then there is a problem. </P> <P>Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to believe that we want to go back to the way it was pre-LU#13? </P> <P>We are not asking for that.  We are asking to be able to tank as well as the other classes.  Currently the plate tank classes are not as good at tanking as the non-plate tanks.   Why are we not tanking as well.  It's because that avoidance and mitigation were reduced.  The avoidance is understandable, but the mitigation was cut way too much!.  We now take more damage overall during a fight which causes healers to burn more power. </P>

[Gungo]

rrahl since you decided to not answer my question regarding mitigation i will repost it here sicne you missed it. <DIV> <P>Raahl seriously man you got to stop the subjective reading my entire post wasn't about adding utility it had alot of variables other then tanking and utility that adding mitigation will not fix. I also edited the yellow text one i wasn't done qouting it, but i genrally post before i get timed out because this message board sucks </P> <P>Adding mitigation doesnt sound to me like a fix other then a bandaid. because</P> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)</P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. Lowering avoidance will also make this harder.</P> <P> </P> <P>Do you get my point yet raahl please tell me how adding mitigation will fix any of these problems? These are the issues that Guardians have brought up not me that you keep ignoring.</P> <P>One solution would be to decrease avoidance on very light, light, medium armour. If Sixman's numbers are accurtate a reduction of 10% will solve the tanking disparity. Also an increase in utility will help guardins who want to offer more.</P> <P>(disclaimer these are in addition to fixing tanking disparities)</P> <P>and these are several ideas and abilites peopel have suggested to fill in those many missing gaps.</P> <DIV>Stun resist on shields to help crusaders and warriors. a small amount of mitgation on shields.Both these can be adjusted to differentiate kite vs tower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a group rescue, and a slow component on your aoe taunt </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a 3 sec 25% stun proc on your offensive stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a new long range pull ability to replace anchor (I suggested a long range bow stifle that works on epics, Raid utility :smileywink<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a 15 sec 10 min reuse auto riposte ability like monks tsunami that does taunts instead of extra dam. Great for that inital pull to build agro and have debuffers do their job.. In eq1 we used rangers to wpnshield so we could debuff a mob, becuase they were so hard unbuffed this seems like a logical solution.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>another 30 sec buff that doubles your sheild avodiance would be cool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>add a knockback or knockdown atk for a lil flavor and you have some nice new buffs and utility that helps not only in tanking but fun and if these are used correctly can help a gaurdian become a great tank. These are not all the ideas suggested but it is part of a few that have been said.</DIV> <P> </P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[Landiin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> rrahl since you decided to not answer my question regarding mitigation i will repost it here sicne you missed it. <DIV> <P>Raahl seriously man you got to stop the subjective reading my entire post wasn't about adding utility it had alot of variables other then tanking and utility that adding mitigation will not fix. I also edited the yellow text one i wasn't done qouting it, but i genrally post before i get timed out because this message board sucks </P> <P>Adding mitigation doesnt sound to me like a fix other then a bandaid. because</P> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)</P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. Lowering avoidance will also make this harder.</P> <P> </P> <P>Do you get my point yet raahl please tell me how adding mitigation will fix any of these problems? These are the issues that Guardians have brought up not me that you keep ignoring.</P> <P>One solution would be to decrease avoidance on very light, light, medium armour. If Sixman's numbers are accurtate a reduction of 10% will solve the tanking disparity. Also an increase in utility will help guardins who want to offer more.</P> <P>(disclaimer these are in addition to fixing tanking disparities)</P> <P>and these are several ideas and abilites peopel have suggested to fill in those many missing gaps.</P> <DIV>Stun resist on shields to help crusaders and warriors. a small amount of mitgation on shields.Both these can be adjusted to differentiate kite vs tower.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a group rescue, and a slow component on your aoe taunt </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a 3 sec 25% stun proc on your offensive stance</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a new long range pull ability to replace anchor (I suggested a long range bow stifle that works on epics, Raid utility :smileywink<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>a 15 sec 10 min reuse auto riposte ability like monks tsunami that does taunts instead of extra dam. Great for that inital pull to build agro and have debuffers do their job.. In eq1 we used rangers to wpnshield so we could debuff a mob, becuase they were so hard unbuffed this seems like a logical solution.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>another 30 sec buff that doubles your sheild avodiance would be cool.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>add a knockback or knockdown atk for a lil flavor and you have some nice new buffs and utility that helps not only in tanking but fun and if these are used correctly can help a gaurdian become a great tank. These are not all the ideas suggested but it is part of a few that have been said.</DIV> <P> </P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:32 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with you to some degree but I just hate to see any one get nerfed and takeing 10% is a good size nerf. Tossing us 10 - 15% more mid would kind of be the same but without nerfing any one. Then if all the mobs are tuned to us not having that high mid, I can see where it could lead but the devs did say all they have to do now is tweek some numbers and they could change things accross the board so /shrug shouldn't  be a real issue.

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>I think Gunga is finally coming over to the dark side and really noticing our legitimate concerns, AND for that Gunga I truly appreciate the time you spend here posting, and trying to help us in your own way.  But I must agree with the above poster, I hate seeing other classes getting the nerf bat instead of just fixing Guards.  Fix the mitigation values, esp to over even conned mobs, and fix the ktie sheild/tower sheild debate, and 90Percent of us will be extremely happy.  Ya know I even agree with the avoidance factors, AND I love what they did for scouts and most Mages...just seems Plate classes got the shaft...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>I never did want any one class ot be supreme, but i do side with alot of gaurds who want utility. I did not say i wan tutility at the cost of tanking for guards. Guards should have a slight lead on tanking, but as many other have said not to a degree to make other fighters less desirable. That is neither here nor there. A solution to the current dilemma has to be made. </P> <P>And increasing guard aviodance will not solve bruisers from soloing  low to even con 2 up heroics. (some may not see this as a problem, but some do) </P> <P>lowering just brawler avodiance will still leave scouts to be able to tank DoF mobs better then guards. </P> <DIV>In addition to reducing Very light, light and medium armour ~10% if sixman's numbers are correct. They also need to give something to make soloing grouping easier. hence all the extra utility i have alwasy recommended.</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Or they could fix the formula used to factor mitigation values, esp on yellow and orange conned mobs.  Make its actually mean something, so that lugging all this heavy hot armor around means something.  If it needs a combination of nerfing avoidance And fixing mitigation values then so be it.  If they want to give us utility on top of the increase effect of mitigation(which leads to better tanking) I wont disagree with it, but its not necessary to make ME personally happy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Gungo, </P> <P>Since you are getting confused in what thread you are in, I will repost my reply to your from the Utility thread. </P> <P>1)  This may be true.  Simply adding mitigation will not solve these issue.  Perhaps making Mitigation affect these types of attack might be a way to help fix this.  Perhaps raising resistances will help this also.  But I'm fairly certain that adding utility would not solve this either.  I have not seen a suggestion yet that would.  Though I will not back off my statements that guardians and plate classes in general need more mitigation.  Mitigation alone may not solve the problems totally but it's the first place to start.</P> <P>2) First off I believe basing your arguments against what hard core players do is a mistake.  The reason the 80% cap is there is to limit the power players.  This helps sony make sure that most encounters are not trivialized by people maximizing their equipment.  So the solution may be to reduce the mitigation on fabled armor.  Raising the resistance on fabled would probably be a decent tradeoff.  </P> <P>3) Neither will upping Utility.  I do not care about what scouts do.  I only care that guardians are broken.  Raising and fixing mitigation will help guardians and in most cases help all tank classes.</P> <P>4) This may be true but it will not fix the guardians issues.   It would probably break brawlers.  If coupled with something that made thier mitigation work (at least partially) against all damage types, this might soften the blow.  </P> <p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:13 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<P>I agree the recent changes to orange and higher con mobs is harsh on us. But i think they did that for 2 reasons. 1 certain clases are able to solo/group high lvl content the devs did not want. solution make it hard to solo mobs higher then you. You will no longer see a wizard root nuking a orange con heroic. or a conjuror pet tankign an orange con heroic.</P> <P>secondly i don't think the devs intended people to be lvl 55+ in less then 2 weeks at this rate alot of peopel will be 60 in less then a month.</P> <P>they could just increase the value of mitigation, but after they spent 9 months making content harder seems counter productive to make content easier. I wouldn't mind if i can't solo heroic i think most classes shouldn't unless they get lucky at certain low green con. I don't mind groups only taking on yellow and some low orange con mobs if equipped well and lucky. I tend to agree w the devs that peopel shouldn't have a chance at any red con mobs. </P> <P>There is a ton of solo content in DoF go to the harpie area in DoF there is massive value of low agor radius solo content there.Sadly it goes unused because alot of classes can still solo heroic.</P> <DIV>So i am not for making content any easier cept retuning raid mobs to be even theoratically possible =p.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Raahl you continue to prove how narrow minded you are. You dismiss all claims by guardians and non-gaurdians no matter how valid there points are. I am done responding to you. Your opinions are obviosly biased and self centered.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>I even put a disclaimer over utility just for you saying that utility is seperate from tankign balance yet you only subjectively read what you want. Once you actual grow a clue what people are saying maybe your postion will have soem validity until then... good day</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:24 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>(disclaimer these are in addition to fixing tanking disparities)</P> <P>and these are several ideas and abilites peopel have suggested to fill in those many missing gaps.</P> <DIV>Stun resist on shields to help crusaders and warriors. a small amount of mitgation on shields.Both these can be adjusted to differentiate kite vs tower. <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Are you advocating adding mitigation?   Wonder who suggested the shield mitigation recently?  To me this is probably the best solution to helping the mitigation issues.  Adding the shield factor to mitigation would be a big chunk.  Now possibly add more resistances to plate armor and we might be better off.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>a group rescue, and a slow component on your aoe taunt <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This might resolve any aggro issues we are seeing.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>a 3 sec 25% stun proc on your offensive stance <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This may help when solo'ing or being an OT, but does nothing to remedy our MT issues.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>a new long range pull ability to replace anchor (I suggested a long range bow stifle that works on epics, Raid utility :smileywink<IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>The long range pull was nice, though a bow does the trick also, just not as long of a range.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>a 15 sec 10 min reuse auto riposte ability like monks tsunami that does taunts instead of extra dam. Great for that inital pull to build agro and have debuffers do their job.. In eq1 we used rangers to wpnshield so we could debuff a mob, becuase they were so hard unbuffed this seems like a logical solution.) <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I'd just rather see the HTL skill be made a group AE taunt.   So 50% chance of taunting the group of mobs when hit.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>another 30 sec buff that doubles your sheild avodiance would be cool. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Avoidance would be nice, but with too much avoidance and a purposed reduction in Brawler avoidance, I'm thinking it would be too much and would cause guardians to be overpowered.  I'm for leaving our avoidance as it is.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> Gungo wrote:<BR></DIV> <DIV>add a knockback or knockdown atk for a lil flavor and you have some nice new buffs and utility that helps not only in tanking but fun and if these are used correctly can help a gaurdian become a great tank. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Would be nice fluff, but wouldn't solve the core issue with guardians.</DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <P>I agree the recent changes to orange and higher con mobs is harsh on us. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Didn't they recently make yellows tougher also.  Like within the last couple days?</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV>The point is though raahl adding mitigation does not solve anything other then make guards overpowered. You will still do poorly in DoF content but surpass all other tanks in any other content. Sixman's numbers proves that mitigation is balanced hence guards have the most then crusaders then brawlers. Where as avoidance has crusaders the least then guards, and finally brawerls w a significant jump. This is considering his numbers are correct. If you lower the gap in avodinace to equal the gap in mitigation hence ~10% then the tanking dispartiy will be balanced. If you raise mitgation by a large amount crusaders will then be out of balance. I Never said i came up with all those ideas Stop trying to mislead peopel again. I even said above that these are ideas people came up with i never said me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally i have np adding a wee bit of mitigation to sheilds to differentiate tower vs kite although i believe shield factor to be an inflated number 650+ ac to a shield is over 2x any Bp or legs etc. Why would a warrior or crusader remove a shield ever? I believe an extra 275 mitigation on a fabled tower is fine maybe 175 for a fabled kite 100 for round and 50 for buckler. thats like an extra armour slot.</DIV>

[rastlin]

well i hate to say it but i have seen pally pre nerf mt vox raid so i don't know what this whineing bout paly's been hurting since launch in a guardians thread is whine in pally thread pls <div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>The point is though raahl adding mitigation does not solve anything other then make guards overpowered. You will still do poorly in DoF content but surpass all other tanks in any other content.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Explain how this makes us overpowered, when we are currently underpowered?  This will help correct the problems we are seeing.  Have you crunched some numbers some where that I didn't see.  You yourself commented about adding mitigation to shields as being a good idea.  Or did I mis-read that post?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation is useless on a large number of mobs in DoF.  This is a separate issue to the mitigation increase I've mentioned.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> Gungo wrote</DIV> <DIV>Sixman's numbers proves that mitigation is balanced hence guards have the most then crusaders then brawlers. Where as avoidance has crusaders the least then guards, and finally brawerls w a significant jump. This is considering his numbers are correct. If you lower the gap in avodinace to equal the gap in mitigation hence ~10% then the tanking dispartiy will be balanced. If you raise mitgation by a large amount crusaders will then be out of balance. I Never said i came up with all those ideas Stop trying to mislead peopel again. I even said above that these are ideas people came up with i never said me. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You and I see that differently.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You see that the brawlers are overpowered and need to have reduced avoidance, which will probably be easily over come with buffs and such.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I see that the non-avoidance tanks need to be fixed.  There are issues tanking and soloing and reducing the brawlers avoidance just makes them worse off.</DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>Gungo wrote</DIV> <DIV>Finally i have np adding a wee bit of mitigation to sheilds to differentiate tower vs kite although i believe shield factor to be an inflated number 650+ ac to a shield is over 2x any Bp or legs etc. Why would a warrior or crusader remove a shield ever? I believe an extra 275 mitigation on a fabled tower is fine maybe 175 for a fabled kite 100 for round and 50 for buckler. thats like an extra armour slot. <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ok in your first point you state that mitigation "mitigation does not solve anything other then make guards overpowered" now you state "i have np adding a wee bit of mitigation to sheilds".  Which is it?  </P> <P>I believe the mitigation value should be a set value for the type and tier, not tied to fable, legendary, etc.  </P> <P>Tower shield Mitigation = Tier x 75   (75 (1), 150 (2), 225 (3), 300 (4), 375 (5) and 450 (6))</P> <P>Kite shield mitigation = Tier x 55   (55 (1), 110 (2), 165 (3), 220 (4), 275 (5) and 330 (6))</P> <P>Round shield mitigation = Tier x 40   (40 (1), 80 (2), 120 (3), 160 (4), 200 (5) and 240 (6))</P> <P>Buckler shield mitigation = Tier x 20   (20 (1), 40 (2), 60 (3), 80 (4), 100 (5) and 120 (6))</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Gungo]

<DIV>You will be overpowered compared to crusaders.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'll use fake number really quick to explain it to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>guard has 50% mitigation 40% avoid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crusader 40% mitigation 30% avoid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brawler  30% mitigation 60% avoid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok now using those fake number if we increase gaurds mitigation</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>guard 60/40</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crusader 40/30</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brawler 30/60</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>then crusaders become the new [Removed for Content] class and brlawer and warrors will be equal but if you reduce brawler avoid</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>guard 50/40</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>crusader 40/30</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>brawler 30/50</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>then the classes become more balanced then they were</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>not to mentio this fixes all the multitude of issues i have brought up previously such as :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <P>Adding mitigation doesnt sound to me like a fix other then a bandaid. because</P> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)</P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. </P> <P> </P> <P>By adding mitigation you do nothing but create a class superior then crusaders. Mitigation is balanced by sixman's numbers avoidance by sixmans number has brawlers in a significant lead.</P></DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Raahl wrote:</SPAN></P> <DIV>You see that the brawlers are overpowered and need to have reduced avoidance, which will probably be easily over come with buffs and such.   </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually Raahl avodiance is harder to raise then mitigation. Avodiance has several caps AGI is capped at 7 x level and agi offers very lil avoidance. Defense is capped and offers lil to the avoidance value (althought defense does adds more then avoid). Parry is capped and hard to buff . Deflection and block are set values w no other means to raise them other then using defensive stacne to add deflection for a bruiser.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<P>Nice fake numbers.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </P> <P>If mitigation was added to shields you might see something similar to this.</P> <P>Lets try this.  Probably a little closer.  With buffs they would be higher.</P> <P><STRONG><U>Before change</U></STRONG></P> <P>Warriors: Mit 40%, Avoid 40%</P> <P>Crusaders: Mit 38%, Avoid 40%</P> <P>Brawlers: Mit 35%, Avoid 60%</P> <DIV> <P><STRONG><U>After change</U></STRONG></P> <P>Warriors: Mit 48%, Avoid 40%</P> <P>Crusaders: Mit 46%, Avoid 40%</P> <P>Brawlers: Mit 35% without shield.  40% with shield.  , Avoid 60%</P></DIV> <P>Again Gungo.</P> <P>I will repost my statements in reply to your statements. </P> <P>1)  This may be true.  Simply adding mitigation will not solve these issue.  Perhaps making Mitigation affect these types of attack might be a way to help fix this.  Perhaps raising resistances will help this also.  But I'm fairly certain that adding utility would not solve this either.  I have not seen a suggestion yet that would.  Though I will not back off my statements that guardians and plate classes in general need more mitigation.  Mitigation alone may not solve the problems totally but it's the first place to start.</P> <P>2) First off I believe basing your arguments against what hard core players do is a mistake.  The reason the 80% cap is there is to limit the power players.  This helps sony make sure that most encounters are not trivialized by people maximizing their equipment.  So the solution may be to reduce the mitigation on fabled armor.  Raising the resistance on fabled would probably be a decent tradeoff.  </P> <P>3) Neither will upping Utility.  I do not care about what scouts do.  I only care that guardians are broken.  Raising and fixing mitigation will help guardians and in most cases help all tank classes.</P> <P>4) This may be true but it will not fix the guardians issues.   It would probably break brawlers.  If coupled with something that made thier mitigation work (at least partially) against all damage types, this might soften the blow.  </P><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:29 PM</span>

[Gungo]

Do you even play eq2 ? brawlers can't use shields. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i hardly consider myself or my guild hardcore and in groups we can hit the 80% caps easily </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>group w a templar and fury and i garantee you will hit 80% mitigation w master/maybe adept 3 buffs.</DIV> <DIV>alternatively its hard if not impossible for any class to hit 80% avoidance atm.</DIV> <P>  <P>Seriously though what is your gripe you admit raising mitigation will not fix any of my points yet you are adement in adding mitgation when you alreayd have a superior mitigation number. You are wrong and are just to hard headed to admit it. Adding mitigation will do nothing there is entire threads in the guardian forums on how mitgation is adding very little to the reduction of damage taken. <P>You know what they cna give you a 400 mitgation shield for all i care. When i hit 60 and get soem fabled and full t6 rare (especially since harvests are easy now). I know i will still hit the mitigation cap and yet have higher avodiance i will still be the preferred tank i will still have more utility. Mor edps and better tanking. They cna give you exactly what you keep asking for no utility and an 400 mitgation shield and nothign will change. i bring up points to help guardians out and offer a solution. That you can not refute will not work. It wont break brawler losing 10% avoid, all that will prolly mena is we wont be abel to take heorics as easy if at all.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr><SPAN class=time_text> <HR> Raahl wrote:</SPAN> <DIV>You see that the brawlers are overpowered and need to have reduced avoidance, which will probably be easily over come with buffs and such.  </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually Raahl avodiance is harder to raise then mitigation. Avodiance has several caps AGI is capped at 7 x level and agi offers very lil avoidance. Defense is capped and offers lil to the avoidance value (althought defense does adds more then avoid). Parry is capped and hard to buff . Deflection and block are set values w no other means to raise them other then using defensive stacne to add deflection for a bruiser.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:28 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I cannot remember, is avoidance capped.  I think it is.  If it is, ignore the rest of this.</P> <P>If avoidance is capped, are brawlers hitting the cap?</P> <P>If they hit the cap, by what % are they going over?<BR></P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Do you even play eq2 ? brawlers can't use shields. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i hardly consider myself or my guild hardcore and in groups we can hit the 80% caps easily </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>group w a templar and fury and i garantee you will hit 80% mitigation w master/maybe adept 3 buffs.</DIV> <DIV>alternatively its hard if not impossible for any class to hit 80% avoidance atm.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:33 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I play EQ2, but do not play a brawler enough to remember if I could use a shield.  So brawlers wouldn't benifit from the shields.  That would mean that their avoidance would not have to be changed.  It does however address your concerns about the crusaders and Beserkers.</P> <P>Oh so you can hit the caps with Master and adept III level spells.  Guess what?  Most players don't have those.  That's why the cap is there.  It's to limit how good the players can get, irregardless of equipment.   It allows Sony to control the content better, by knowing that players cannot go over a certain limit.</P> <P>Is hitting the cap really that bad.  Seeing it supposedly scales to your level.  That's 80% of mobs of your level.  Supposedly even more for mobs of a lower level.  Though I'm starting to believe that this is no longer true.</P> <p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:42 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Go harvest bud the rate has been raised a ton if you haven't gotten a pearl yet its because you spend to much time debating my posts and not playing hence you have no idea what you are talking about.</DIV>

[Krooner]

<P>Gungo... Ackkkk</P> <P>I have been hearing about this mystical increase in the harvest rate.</P> <P>I will admit I got a Kobalt on my first day.  </P> <P>But since then I have harvested at least 100 stacks of jewel stones.... in both T5 and T6.... Nadda.</P> <P>Had to break down and buy a Ruby for a plat last night for my Froggie Dirge.... Must say though ... hes been a little cash machine.  I can get more money with him in one hour than my guard in 5.</P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Go harvest bud the rate has been raised a ton if you haven't gotten a pearl yet its because you spend to much time debating my posts and not playing hence you have no idea what you are talking about.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>No I'm happy to point out the flaws in your thinking</P> <P>So answer this, Do you think its fair to build the game around stats based on the best equipment in game?  Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't fabled only drop items? </P> <P>Even with havested items being supposedly easier to harvest.   Shouldn't the developers base the game off of an average player? </P> <P>Or are you saying that the average should be legendary and fabled items?</P>

[bonesbro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I cannot remember, is avoidance capped.  I think it is.  If it is, ignore the rest of this.</P> <P>If avoidance is capped, are brawlers hitting the cap?</P> <P>If they hit the cap, by what % are they going over?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Avoidance and mitigation are both capped at 80% against a white no-arrow solo mob.  I am not aware of any brawlers getting to 75%+ avoidance.  Details:</P> <P>Agility buffs only increase your "base" avoidance.  All classes have the same base avoidance, as far as I know, so everyone gets the same benefit from +agility.  And agility buffs have very little value at the moment.</P> <P>For a brawler to increase their avoidance through buffs, they need either +parry or +deflection buffs.  Again, yall will get the same benefit from +parry as we do, except that we get a 360 degree benefit.</P> <P>As far as I know, there is one +deflection buff in the game.  It is on the "give target a chance to avoid attacks" buff that all Fighters get.  Our buff will drop when another Fighter places their defensive buff on us, and the benefit of another Fighter blocking for you is better than +8 to deflection.  As a result, I consider deflection to be almost impossible to raise.</P> <DIV>I am not aware of any other buffs that increase avoidance.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV>fabled are master and raid drops... harvests like pearls are legendary go play the game and learn soem real facts ty now come again... adept 3 at the rate it is currently dropping will be the norm so yes i agree legendary spells will be the norm for anyone who plays a decent amount and harvests.</DIV> <DIV>but anyway thank you for derailing the topicgo get a fury porcupine buff and a templars mtigation buff should put even your [Removed for Content] azz at 80% mitgation. Good luck findign a group w no utility and mobs that hit for spell damage.</DIV> <P>You have never found a hole in my argument in fact you agreed that the issues i broguth up will not be solved by adding mitgation. The only thing you proved is your a trollign idiot.</P> <P>Btw bones bruiser don't get that deflection buff ours adds agi which at 50 solo i was already almos ta tthe cap i had 332 out of a 350 agi cap w a fury/bard/etc in group i will be well above cap.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff33> <P>gungo wrote:</P> <P>mitigation wont solv ethe current guards issues such as:</P> <P>1) many mobs in DoF ignore trauma mitigation (also known as your AC (slash/peirce/crush)</P> <P>2) the 80% cap can be easily reached in group settings and at 60 w full fabled or t6 armour this issue will be even more pronounced. thus allowing brawlers to obtain the same mitigation and higher avodiance since avodiance can not be raised as much.</P> <P>3) upping mitigation will not prevent scouts from having higher avodiance then gaurds thus tanking DoF mobs better.</P> <P>4) brawlers soloing lower lvl heroic content that other fighters can not solo. Lowering avoidance will also make this harder.</P> <P></FONT> </P> <P>Raahl wrote:</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Me paraphrasig raahl's comments</FONT></P> <P>1)  This may be true.  Simply adding mitigation will not solve these issue.  Perhaps making Mitigation affect these types of attack might be a way to help fix this.  Perhaps raising resistances will help this also.  But I'm fairly certain that adding utility would not solve this either.  I have not seen a suggestion yet that would.  Though I will not back off my statements that guardians and plate classes in general need more mitigation.  Mitigation alone may not solve the problems totally but it's the first place to start. <FONT color=#ffff33>You are right gungo addign mitigation wont solve this problem how about some [Removed for Content] idea about ignoring spell resists and applying physical mitgation to spells... changing the entire dynamic of the game is much easier then just reducing avodiance on brawlers.</FONT></P> <P>2) First off I believe basing your arguments against what hard core players do is a mistake.  The reason the 80% cap is there is to limit the power players.  This helps sony make sure that most encounters are not trivialized by people maximizing their equipment.  So the solution may be to reduce the mitigation on fabled armor.  Raising the resistance on fabled would probably be a decent tradeoff.  <FONT color=#ffff33>Gungo you must be mistaken the majoirty of the player base at 50 doesnt own any adept 3 spells, who  would spend or harvest to at least adept 3 the important spells like buffs and heals. At any rate harvests hasn't gone up because i don't harvest instead i follow you around on the boards trying to make a point that makes no sense. </FONT></P> <P>3) Neither will upping Utility.  I do not care about what scouts do.  I only care that guardians are broken.  Raising and fixing mitigation will help guardians and in most cases help all tank classes. <FONT color=#ffff00>I don't care about utility hence no other guard needs utility, i don't care if a lvl 35 gaurd can't solo and is unwanted in groups. I  am already 50+. Basically their needs are not important. raising mitigation will help guards compare numbers to eavh other and feel happy about our ego's while we sit at the dock in SS looking for group because all the mobs hit for spell damage now and the brawlers and crusaders are tankign them better. I also will ignore the fact that lowering avoidance on all but Heavy armour like you stated will make me a better tank then scouts.</FONT></P> <P>4) This may be true but it will not fix the guardians issues.   It would probably break brawlers.  If coupled with something that made thier mitigation work (at least partially) against all damage types, this might soften the blow.  <FONT color=#ffff33>You are right again gungo, but being equal in tanking wont fix gaurdians issues of being the only tank people would want in groups and gimping the other fighter classes.  removing 10% avoidance will probably break brawlers because now they wont be able to solo heroic double up's anymore and instead would have to solo regualr mobs.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>If i keep following your posts around gungo making absolutly no sense and making false and misleading statements will i become as cool as you?</FONT></P></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:03 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:06 PM</span>

[Raahl]

Thanks for clearing that up for me bonesbro.

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>fabled are master and raid drops... harvests like pearls are legendary go play the game and learn soem real facts ty now come again... adept 3 at the rate it is currently dropping will be the norm so yes i agree legendary spells will be the norm for anyone who plays a decent amount and harvests.</DIV> <DIV>but anyway thank you for derailing the topicgo get a fury porcupine buff and a templars mtigation buff should put even your [Removed for Content] azz at 80% mitgation. Good luck findign a group w no utility and mobs that hit for spell damage.</DIV> <P>You have never found a hole in my argument in fact you agreed that the issues i broguth up will not be solved by adding mitgation. The only thing you proved is your a trollign idiot.</P> <P>Btw bones bruiser don't get that deflection buff ours adds agi which at 50 solo i was already almos ta tthe cap i had 332 out of a 350 agi cap w a fury/bard/etc in group i will be well above cap.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:10 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>How nice of you to avoid the question.  Move on.

[Raahl]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR></DIV> <P></P> <HR> Gungo wrote: <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Me paraphrasig raahl's comments</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why am I now doubting your maturity?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will refuse to stoop to your level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Blackdog183]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=18988#M18988" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=18988#M18988</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>read it</DIV>