A long way to level 60

[Gladesman]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV><U><FONT face=Verdana size=2>This is not a post about main-tanking on raids or what this revamp means for raid-main-tanking abilities of the guardian. The raid content doesn't mean everything to everybody and I believe it shouldn't be what your class is based on/for [eventhough I love raiding] . That said, read on..</FONT></U></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I'm your average level 50 guardian; I've got my ebon armor and a couple of fabled pieces, I have my adept III's and even a master (iron conviction..aargh). Until DoF came out I could cope with the low DPS and I could find groups without much hassle because my defense/mitigation made the healer's life a lot easier and as I could easily keep aggro the DPS-ers didn't have to fear for their lives. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Pre-DoF/revamp I was able to solo low level heroics (named manticores in feerrott and the likes).. granted it took me an entire episode of the Simpsons and I would often be left with 10 hitpoints, but hey.. I *could* do it.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Pre-DoF/revamp guardians were already considered to be the punch bags and NOBODY wanted 2 guardians in a group (or 3 in a raidforce), because they were pretty much useless except for taking the hits. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Post-DoF/revamp it now seems that NOBODY wants even 1 guardian in their exp/quest group because any other fighter class can tank pretty darn well, maybe they don't have just as many hitpoints / defense lower than a guardian, but hey: they all still do pretty nice DPS so fights go quicker and exp goes faster. Who cares that a healer has to cast that one extra heal: they've got PLENTY of power anyway! Besides, even MONKS and SHAMANS can take aggro from me now so the majority of my mana goes into taunts to keep aggro - so my one and only contribution is taking the hits, which other classes can do now as well. I've seen people ooc-ing "group looking for DPS / tank (monk/zerker)" already, when will it become: "group looking for anything BUT guardian"? Yay me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Ok. So less people want to group with me, why don't I go and solo some stuff? Good idea!! Oh, except for the fact I can barely solo anything anymore. Yes, I can kill ONE mob, but imagine this mob would be in a non-heroic encounter that has a caster or a healer in it as well? I don't have a root / mezz / stun / stifle worth a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] that will keep it from nuking me to death / healing itself until my mana is gone.. My melee and dmg spells are not good enough to kill quickly and by the time I'm done with one mob I'm out of mana and I get beaten up by the rest of the encounter. I used to be able to stand and melee for a while when I was out of mana, but nowadays I just get pummeled down EVEN when I'm in my defensive stance and the mob is LIGHT blue, on the verge of green..</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I don't care what other people can do, I care about what I can not do. Yes, some classes needed an upgrade and a fix, but why did the guardians need to get nerfed in the process? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I don't care that warlocks can still solo the spectres in the Sinking Sands; I don't think they're supposed to be soloable for a level 50 player and people attempting it take the risk of dying. I don't mind that monks/bruisers got a tanking upgrade and that all scout DPS is improved. Heck, I watched an ILLUSIONIST solo a blue HEROIC encounter with a combination of her mezz and pet yesterday, good for her! (btw: I tried it and I got through one mob until I had to run for my life (which is also nearly impossible with the constant stuns that the new mobs use)) I don't need or want to solo heroics or nameds, I just want to be able to solo the normal content and be able to contribute something in a normal group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I've never understood why every other class / archetype had nifty - "class/archetype specific" spells and/or abilities and the guardian's claim to fame was just that good defense / mitigation. But now that defense / mitigation is hardly important anymore in normal groups (with the changes to the other classes) and while soloing the mobs just laugh at me when it takes me 10 minutes to kill it, IF I kill it that is..   why didn't I get an escape/invis/self-heal/root/feign-death/pet/mezz/nuke/etc. that would make my class more distinguished and desirable to play / group with?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I feel like the last kid sitting on the sidelines when everyone else has already been picked for a team in gym class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I realise this is another one of the whine posts, but after playing for a while now it's hard to stay optimistic about things and I needed to vent somewhere else than to my guildies on teamspeak <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Maybe I am missing something or doing something completely wrong (I don't consider myself to be crap player and I think I've achieved quite a bit with limited resources), but I just fail to see how any guardian can have positive feelings about this revamp?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Experience isn't coming fast and whilst I will and can play with my friends / guildies (hooray for nice people!) there's just not much fun in having a guardian as your main char. I sincerely hope SOE will do something for guardians, even if it means they'll just go back to the way it was before. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>If things stay this way it will be a very long way to level 60.. that much is clear. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>- Polluxia </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#9966ff><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT size=1><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#9999ff>Madam Polluxia Pimpernella - the relic keeper, slayer of fairies, protector of gnomes - lvl 50 Frontdoor of the Shard</FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </FONT></FONT></FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#9966ff size=1><EM><STRONG>Lowland Elites - Runnyeye</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Grey-Cat]

Wow, two thumbs up for your post, I think you summed up my feelings exactly. <div></div>

[Keavea]

<DIV>Totaly agree with you ... i was standing with a lfg tag on for 3 hours in SS every grp i asked where seeking for a tank but they never asked me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> im known to be a good tank , but now not anymore i am not the guy that have multiple adpet3 or piece of fabled items the only fabled i have is my roayal great flail. thats all i have, full ebon armor ,  i already parked my guardian and cancelled the account , </DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Good post!  I feel that other tank classes have a lot more to offer a party than a guardian does.  </P> <P>I'm just glad I have a good guild with people who like to group because it's fun and not to max out the party.</P> <P>What Sony set out to do was to balance the tanking classes by make each tanking class equal in tanking ability, yet different.   </P> <P>I believe they failed.  They just swapped the classes around.   It's extemely difficult to balance classes that are different.</P> <P>I truly hope that the developers read our posts here and look into making the changes that we suggest.  We don't want to be supermen, we just want to do what we are suppose to do.  </P> <P><STRONG><U>Sony please change the following</U></STRONG></P> <OL> <LI>Mitigation.  Please raise our base mitigation by 5-10%.</LI> <LI>Resistance.  A slight increase would round us out.</LI> <LI>Taunts.  When fighting a group of mobs It is difficult to keep aggro from all the mobs.  If we lose aggro from a mob it is almost impossible to get back.   Single mob encounters are just about right for aggro management.   </LI> <OL> <LI>Perhaps making our HTL taunt line cast an AE taunt when we are hit.</LI> <LI>Also lowering the recast time on Rescue from 10 min to 3-5 minutes might also help.</LI></OL></OL> <P>I'm having a blast.  If these changes were implemented I would be having that blast all the time.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:19 AM</span>

[Auberon_Feykin]

Not to disagree too much (I'm a Swashbuckler, not a Guardian) but really HTL and it's followups are more of an aggravation to many guardians than anything else.  I don't believe that it's "fun" to root yourself in every fight.  It's also NOT SMART.  If a Guardian has to use HTL (or whatever the current one they have available is) in order to gain aggro they are already taking a hit in desirability.  No party is interested in a stiff, unflexible, unabled to react chunk of metal that slows them down.  If other classes can hold aggro WITHOUT rooting themselves, it is simply a disadvantage if the Guardian must do so. Other tank classes I've spoken to seem to hold aggro through a combination of DPS and taunts.  Guardians have to taunt like crazy because they don't have much DPS . . . less than any other tank, yet their taunts are (with the exception of HTL) uninspiring.  (The stun issue seems to really effect Guardians a lot . . . I'm willing to bet that if your avoidance is higher, you're stunned less, thus making you a more effective tank.) Anyway, HTL is not an answer IMO. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Auberon_Feykin wrote:<BR>Not to disagree too much (I'm a Swashbuckler, not a Guardian) but really HTL and it's followups are more of an aggravation to many guardians than anything else.  I don't believe that it's "fun" to root yourself in every fight.  It's also NOT SMART.  If a Guardian has to use HTL (or whatever the current one they have available is) in order to gain aggro they are already taking a hit in desirability.  No party is interested in a stiff, unflexible, unabled to react chunk of metal that slows them down.  If other classes can hold aggro WITHOUT rooting themselves, it is simply a disadvantage if the Guardian must do so.<BR><BR>Other tank classes I've spoken to seem to hold aggro through a combination of DPS and taunts.  Guardians have to taunt like crazy because they don't have much DPS . . . less than any other tank, yet their taunts are (with the exception of HTL) uninspiring.  (The stun issue seems to really effect Guardians a lot . . . I'm willing to bet that if your avoidance is higher, you're stunned less, thus making you a more effective tank.)<BR><BR>Anyway, HTL is not an answer IMO. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Unfortunately HTL is our only option if we want to keep aggro.   It's not so bad if all the mobs jump on the guardian cause each attack against the guardian has a chance to gain hate on the guardian.</P> <P>I've found that once I've rooted myself I can easily adjust my position by unrooting, moving and re-rooting.   I've even been known to root myself with multiple combat arts.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Auberon_Feykin]

Something being the "only option" does not mean that it was a good design decision is my only point.  If your healer is a mystic who wards you when you pull a group and root yourself with HTL, you may lose the aggro bfore you have a chance to gain it.  As this is the case, the mobs will go after said mystic.  If said mystic is out of range he is known as dead mystic as by the time you unroot and move, he's got too much aggro for you to recover fast enough.  Should you by some miracle strip the mobs off him it will have been a massive waste of power. I pick on mystics because wards tend to cause guardians to lose aggro faster than reactives and regens.  (Probably because every single opening hit tends to get fully absorbed and assign massive aggro.  More aggro than the group taunt . . . which is probably resisted known murphy's law. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ) Anyway, it's not a good decision to make a class root itself to hold aggro when others can hold aggro just fine while running around doing backflips.  I'm not debating the "is it possible to hold aggro" question. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[jaythesm]

<P>I completely agree with the first poster. A lot has changed and most of it wasn't for the better. I myself am a guardian that has done a fair amoutn of raiding with x4's like vasgok and darathar, x3's like asphexia and brix and multiple x2's. But I never had any uber gear. Full ebon, fabled leggings, cuffs, shield and sword. A little above average I guess...</P> <P>So first off.. I agree, we were nerfed to kingdom come... however a little something I learned yesterday:</P> <P>Acromonidad (x2 Feerott, lvl 54 yellow at 50) was up. I have onegrouped this encounter previously but to be safe we took 2groups this time. We first tried with a 51zerker... He ran in while I off tanked some of the mobs but the healers could simply not keep up with heals and he was creamed (5 healers).</P> <P>We tried again this time using a 52 zerker who had logged on and he was basically oneshotted (these guys have similar armour to me).</P> <P>Third time I tanked... a lvl 50 guardian... and using Anchor, wall or brawn and commanding presence I was able to get my AC higher than either of the guys and we ended up killing him. Agro on the adds was a small issue (they jump straight on the mystic), but the zerkers took care of it using rescue etc.</P> <P>So I guess the moral of the story is... while we did get nerfed, when push comes to shove we can still serve to take the biggest hits!</P> <P>(Of course this means nothing when exping when you want to maintain agro and taking that extra bit of dmg is useless). i guess the new changes test our ability to suckup and make friends who will help us level most! LOL</P> <P>good luck all and I'll join all of you in prayers to up our mit further and make taunts better!</P>

[Kynlo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Auberon_Feykin wrote:<BR>Not to disagree too much (I'm a Swashbuckler, not a Guardian) but really HTL and it's followups are more of an aggravation to many guardians than anything else.  I don't believe that it's "fun" to root yourself in every fight.  It's also NOT SMART.  If a Guardian has to use HTL (or whatever the current one they have available is) in order to gain aggro they are already taking a hit in desirability.  No party is interested in a stiff, unflexible, unabled to react chunk of metal that slows them down.  If other classes can hold aggro WITHOUT rooting themselves, it is simply a disadvantage if the Guardian must do so.<BR><BR>Other tank classes I've spoken to seem to hold aggro through a combination of DPS and taunts.  Guardians have to taunt like crazy because they don't have much DPS . . . less than any other tank, yet their taunts are (with the exception of HTL) uninspiring.  (The stun issue seems to really effect Guardians a lot . . . I'm willing to bet that if your avoidance is higher, you're stunned less, thus making you a more effective tank.)<BR><BR>Anyway, HTL is not an answer IMO. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Unfortunately HTL is our only option if we want to keep aggro.   It's not so bad if all the mobs jump on the guardian cause each attack against the guardian has a chance to gain hate on the guardian.</P> <P>I've found that once I've rooted myself I can easily adjust my position by unrooting, moving and re-rooting.   I've even been known to root myself with multiple combat arts.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>  I would have to agree with you Raahl.  What makes it really tough is the fact that our regular taunts are now resistable.  HTL has always been a good solution in a numerous mob battle.  If you can hold good aggro, you don't need to move around.</DIV>

[kingmojo]

There is various ways to improve on the current situation but as it stands now, its not a very friendly game to guardians.  What did the revamp solve? so people cant solo heroics? oh wait yeah people can still do that , heck i seen a necro solo lvl 56-57 ^^^ thats just total bs, getting 2-3% per kill.  You know what i dont even care all that much about that either, my problem is yes, mitigation sucks for us now we have no real advantage over other tanks, our taunts yes they do suck and to be able to hold agro yes we do need to have the root Maddening Defence taunt (HtL), all it take is 1 resist and you no longer have agro, or get stuned a couple times.  Even with our mitigation increase some mobs will still hit the same if you all have not noticed, some mobs are no longer hiting for normal auto attack slash/crush/pierce , what ive been seeing more now is mobs auto attacking for poison/disease and so on(im guessing this is where specialized tanks come into play) for example we get extra heat mit. with our stance.  Still though, as it currently stands we are below par, we can barely solo (prolly the worst of any other class) takes us a LONG time to kill solo mobs, hence lowering how much exp we can get.  The only real type exp i have been able to get it guildies, if i didnt  have them doubt i would get any groups and for that i thank them. They need to do a couple things and soon: Mitigation bonus, maybe immunity to stun (or make taunts work while stunned like Protect), eliminate resists on stuns, and a bit of resist boost wouldnt be bad either. since they have a fixed system in place of for example 5000 mitigation for 100%, and they need to scale this eventually to lvl 100 or beyond its hurting them, armor will be getting better and better there will be a point where your armor is just gonna max you out to cap permanently.  they need to get rid of the % crap , and just increase something like mitigation and resists every 10 lvls by like 500, so at lvl 60, 5500 mit/resist, would be the new 100% cap, lvl 70 6k , and so on.  I believe thats why they nerfed our crap so badly in order to better scale armor the better we get and so we dont reach the cap. <div></div>

[BostonFNO]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gladesman wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV><U><FONT face=Verdana size=2>This is not a post about main-tanking on raids or what this revamp means for raid-main-tanking abilities of the guardian. The raid content doesn't mean everything to everybody and I believe it shouldn't be what your class is based on/for [eventhough I love raiding] . That said, read on..</FONT></U></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I don't care what other people can do, I care about what I can not do. Yes, some classes needed an upgrade and a fix, but why did the guardians need to get nerfed in the process? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I just want to be able to solo the normal content and be able to contribute something in a normal group.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I've never understood why every other class / archetype had nifty - "class/archetype specific" spells and/or abilities and the guardian's claim to fame was just that good defense / mitigation. <STRONG>But now that defense / mitigation is hardly important anymore in normal groups (with the changes to the other classes) and while soloing the mobs just laugh at me when it takes me 10 minutes to kill it, IF I kill it that is..   why didn't I get an escape/invis/self-heal/root/feign-death/pet/mezz/nuke/etc. that would make my class more distinguished and desirable to play / group with?</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I feel like the last kid sitting on the sidelines when everyone else has already been picked for a team in gym class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I realise this is another one of the whine posts, but after playing for a while now it's hard to stay optimistic about things and I needed to vent somewhere else than to my guildies on teamspeak <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Maybe I am missing something or doing something completely wrong (I don't consider myself to be crap player and I think I've achieved quite a bit with limited resources), but I just fail to see how any guardian can have positive feelings about this revamp?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Experience isn't coming fast and whilst I will and can play with my friends / guildies (hooray for nice people!) there's just not much fun in having a guardian as your main char. I sincerely hope SOE will do something for guardians, even if it means they'll just go back to the way it was before. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>- Polluxia </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#9966ff><FONT face="Comic Sans MS"><FONT size=1><SPAN><SPAN><FONT color=#9999ff>Madam Polluxia Pimpernella - the relic keeper, slayer of fairies, protector of gnomes - lvl 50 Frontdoor of the Shard</FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </FONT></FONT></FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><FONT face="Comic Sans MS" color=#9966ff size=1><EM><STRONG>Lowland Elites - Runnyeye</STRONG></EM></FONT></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Sony, this post is right on the money. Please tune guardians a little more. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>IMO It is essential we get some more DPS. You brought parity to defense among the fighters which is commendable. You promised that in the beginning and failed to deliver ( I love monks now!&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> But you left in the disparity between our damage dealing capabilities for some reason. It's not needed anymore and it's not right.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>Please address our concerns!</FONT><BR></DIV></DIV>

[Gungo]

Well if tanking is not the concern and you still have a slight edge on tankign then other classes why then ask for more tanking? It seesm to me Guards need utility not increased tanking.  A massivie tanking gap would only serve to reduce other classes usefulness. Truly i think the main concern is lack of server population. The smaller population tends to group with thier friends/guildies as it stands. Where as peopel LFG are few and far between. Try it sometime type / all lfg 50 55 and see if you cna form a pick up group to do a decent challenging zone. I know its hard not being the most popular kid anymore, but sometimes we got to suck it up and do thing ourselves. try making a group no one will ever regret havign a gaurdina tnak in xp groups dps is never an issue get a wizard/warlock mobs will drops faster then you cna pull and guards are the best at holding agro on a well played caster.

[dpsman]

Honestly do you think SOE even cares or reads these threads.......we now have mages, monks etc soloing heroic mobs. Only thing we can do is hope and pray that someone from SOE actually WAKES UP and see's how bad they screwed up.

[Burningho]

<DIV>The OP sums up my fealings pretty well.  5 stars.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I chose a guardian to be the best tank in the game knowing that I was giving up all of the fun abilities that other fighters get.  Well, now I have a tank that is only marginally better than the other fighters but still has no utility and no class defining "fun" spell.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quite frankly, the guardian class is faily boring to play.  If we can't get our tanking abilities improved (which would be my preference), then we need to have our utility improved.  Other fighters have similar tanking abilities, then we should have similar utility.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey SOE, how about giving guardians a small out-of-combat power regen buff?  Or a super long-range debuff we could use to pull with?  Or something.  Anything.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Burn<BR>48 Guardian<BR>50 Necro</DIV>

[Gladesman]

<P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Thanks for the feedback <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I myself am not so concerned about not finding a group anymore, because I am in a very social and active guild.. it's merely feeling as if my class has just been torn apart. I *know* that quite a few guardians made their char with one thought in mind: main-tanking on raids. And whilst the guardian may still be the preferred choice for that purpose it doesn't mean anything for your average player and average game situations. Not to mention solo-ers or the fact that currently EVERYBODY is out there trying to level to 60 and exp groups are back in town.. (Imagine being a level 35 guardian now.. you'd have to grind 25 more levels before you can even achieve main tank-status and thus this so called purpose that people talk about..)</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Again, I really don't mind that other fighters got their tanking abilities increased and other classes got other fixes.. but when I see that even the monk invis spell has been fixed and I'm standing there totally empty-handed with nothing to contribute other than a few measly buffs I really do feel quite crappy about my class and my char and this takes away the fun to play.. regardless of whether I can still go and be picked as main-tank during a Darathar raid.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Aside from better stats in general (and for all I care this is put in a bigger difference between offensive and defensive stances so I can use one for when I'm soloing and one for when I'm a group for example) I would also really like some utility spell or even just a fluff spell. A self heal or a pull skill that would circumvent social aggro or an invis spell or a superduper taunt that nobody else has (rescue to the max!) or an intervene that wouldn't cause me harm or just ANYTHING really. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Before this revamp illusionists would promote themselves with their 15 minute "fast" group invis and their breeze & haste buffs because that was all they had.. right now the guardian is the illusionist and hey.. we don't even have anything specific to market ourselves with..</FONT></P> <UL> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want DPS? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want runspeed? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want powerregen? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want invis? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want feign death? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want crowd control? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want to get away when the situation gets too hot? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want a 1000+ damage skill? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want to get healed? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want certain aggro keeper? Don't ask a guardian</FONT></LI> <LI><FONT face=Verdana size=2>You want somebody to get beaten up and nothing else? Consider asking a guardian. Or a pally or a zerker or a monk or a sk or a bruiser. Unless you're really planning on taking on something big there's no real need for a guardian anymore. </FONT></LI></UL> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I know it's all not the end of the world and tonight I didn't do too badly tanking (as in keeping aggro) in a guild exp group (shaman, templar, monk, swash, illu and me) and I had fun because of the people I was with, but man.. I just couldn't help feeling rather useless most of the time and I just do not believe that this is the way SOE intended this revamp/balancing to work (unless they really do want to cut the number of guardians out there and they're trying this demotivational tactic.. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</FONT></P>

[KiseroHT]

<P>yep yep.. op tells it like it is. and i totally agree with you poll  ^   ..... i am just going to say that i still play this game cause of my guild friends; they have supported me through this change and while they can go with other more suited MT's they still choose me.. i am not going to let them down and i will stick in there but it's getting kinda sad.. not sad in the way because i am not performing like an MT should.. but kinda sad that i have been passed over by the gods in so many aspects.. really when it comes down to it if i were lfg i would pick a monk/bruiser over myself if we had the same tanking ability cause of utility.. nuff said</P> <P> </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by KiseroHT on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:31 PM</span>

[Korwyn]

<P>Wow my feelings 100%!!  I also HATE the HTL series and agree that it makes us much less flexible and able to respond when the crap hits the fan!</P> <P>Please Please SOE make some changes...give us something to make us worthwhile in a group!</P> <P> </P> <P>Cormac a very sad Guardian</P> <P> </P>

[Ifung]

<P><SPAN class=postbody1><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=#ffffff>I was about to write pretty much the same post but you beat me to it, Bravo (5 stars). </FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=postbody1><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=#ffffff>SOE please considers this post carefully, because you will eventually lose players on this account and the servers a loosely populated already. My main reason for choosing the Guardian was to bring something unique to a group, this has been taken away. </FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=postbody1><SPAN><FONT size=2><FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=#ffffff>I agree with Gladesman there is a long way to 60, especially when you have to start all over. Just thinking about it.. *Sign*</FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P>

[DanielAtchison]

so they have F&^(%d us guardians up so much we are worthless in the game. i hope they read this post and do something about it or they will lose alot of people. i liked playing my guardian and now i dont like even looking at him cuz i see our normal groups and such taken by other fighter classes and we sit on the sidelines waiting for SoE to get off their butts and fix it. i dont know about many of you but i dont know how long i can sit here and wait for them to fix it <div></div>

[Cybin]

<font face="Times New Roman" size="3"> Thank you for your post., this is exactly how I feel. Lev 50 guardian here,  with almost all abilities at adept 1 or lower and armor that is good but not epic  I feel I represent the casual player.  Here is my story.  I was in two groups hunting in SS, First group had a Necro the second had a Conjurer. In both groups I was asked to allow the pet to tank. I can not tell you how frustrated I felt. What is my role in a group if it is not to tank. I felt I had nothing to contribute other than a few buffs for the pets.  I have not played my Guardian since.  LU13 is the death of the guardian. I hope that when SOE runs the numbers and sees how many guardians are no longer playing they will realize that something is wrong and get busy with some fixes. Guardian LFG. anyone?</font> hello

[MrMartin]

<P>I can only agree with the first poster.</P> <P>I havent played my lvl 37 Guardian for over a week cause its so [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] boring.</P> <P> </P> <P>Instead I now have a lvl 14 Scout/Bard/Troubadur that is a lot more fun and</P> <P>a lot more decirable in a group cause of his in-combat power regen, str & agi buffs and group-attack-haste.</P> <P>Only time I played my Guardian in the last week was to buy stuff for my Bard.</P> <P>Thats sad, I used to enjoy playing my Guardian. But now all I do is die and/or loose aggro. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Prufro]

As a level 31 guardian, when i see a group with a monk tanking, taking on yellow-orange ^^^ with ease and watching his bar rarely go down below green, and when it hits yellow the templar heals once and it's full again, i get disappointed that i kept going with guardian instead of rerolling monk at 19. I wouldn't allow myself to believe they'd make another class an equal tank that has so much more to offer to a group.  How the heck could a ninja take hits better than a knight in full armor?  Yes, he could dodge, but when monks/bruisers have comparable mitigation it's more like they're wearing plate armor but still able to dodge, it's just invisible armor.  Since you can see ours, we suck at dodging, so we get hit 9/10 times, and since we don't get hit any less, we die.  You think a ninja in cloth armor survives getting hit with the sword?  No, they lose a body part, or their life.  Monks apparently have skin of steel.  Which hurts more, a vampire bat biting plate armor, or cloth armor? I've seen dev posts in many forums regarding issues about this revamp and how unhappy people are with situations, yet they completely avoid us.  Why?  Well, while i'm not usually one to make such assumptions, it appears that a dev playing a bruiser put great ideas in out to make that class incredible, and now it is.  But no one is playing guardian, probably because they think it's incredibly boring, and so they just ignore us, and the class, and let us rot in our pathetic shell of existence. I don't want to quit the game, i just want to play my guardian, but when i play it i don't want to feel so gimped. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gladesman wrote:<BR> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=2>Unless you're really planning on taking on something big there's no real need for a guardian anymore. </FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You can thank the multitude of players in your class who had this attitude for that, if its true.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P> <HR> Prufrock wrote: <P></P> <P>Well, while i'm not usually one to make such assumptions, it appears that a dev playing a bruiser put great ideas in out to make that class incredible, and now it is.  But no one is playing guardian, probably because they think it's incredibly boring, and so they just ignore us, and the class, and let us rot in our pathetic shell of existence. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Kind of a big assumption to make isn't it?  I know of a dev who plays an assassin.  One who plays a brigand.  Oh, and one who plays a guardian.  I guess that shoots your assumption out the window then.  Sorry about that.</P> <P>I'm sorry you feel gimped, but maybe its only because you were so Godlike before that any changes to your abilities would feel like an amputation.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:26 PM</span>

[Gladesman]

<DIV><EM><FONT size=2>" I'm sorry you feel gimped, but maybe its only because you were so Godlike before that any changes to your abilities would feel like an amputation." </FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I don't know what your big obsession with guardians is, Gaige. I really don't. Guardians weren't, and definitely aren't right now, Godlike or UBER. We don't have and never had any real utility spells, our dps has always been mediocre at best and the only thing worth mentioning about the class is this entire "main-tanking" thing - our mitigation/defense was/is pretty good - best of the fighter classes. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>But guess what: there's usually only ONE main tank spot in a raid or a group and that means that other guardians just have no function - except for being buffbot (and even THAT function has been slashed to bits) </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>This was already the case pre-revamp and it's only gotten worse now that in normal exp groups monks and zerkers are the preferred choice of tank of many.  There's a whole lot more to this game than the main-tank spot, but yet it seems that it is all you think and talk about.. which is really a shame because I believe that what makes this game great is the diversity of the classes. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>As it stands now; guardians can take more and harder hits than monks/pally's/zerkers and that is really the only thing that defines our class. No feign-death, no invis, no fancy attack moves, no safe-fall, no self-heal. Just plain nothingness. Wouldn't you like it if guardians got a really good damage intercept or a group damage shield or something?  Wouldn't that add something to the game itself, even if it's not directly something you personally can use? </FONT></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gladesman wrote:<BR> <DIV><EM><FONT size=2>" I'm sorry you feel gimped, but maybe its only because you were so Godlike before that any changes to your abilities would feel like an amputation." </FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT size=2></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>I don't know what your big obsession with guardians is, Gaige. I really don't. Guardians weren't, and definitely aren't right now, Godlike or UBER. </FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lies.  </P> <P>Utter and total lies.</P> <P>Pre DoF guardians could, and did, go afk on raids.  You got aggro like a magnet and pretty much could not ever lose it.  You could avoid as well as any monk, and mitigate as well as any other fully fabled plate class <EM>all while having more defense.</EM></P> <P>So don't even try to go there.</P> <P>The truth is your class was way overpowered and now it isn't.  Most of my guardian friends like the new changes.  /shrug</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gladesman wrote:<BR> <DIV><FONT size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2>Wouldn't you like it if guardians got a really good damage intercept or a group damage shield or something?  Wouldn't that add something to the game itself, even if it's not directly something you personally can use? </FONT> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes.  I've said as much in many threads when guardians flaunt their so called usefulness.<BR><BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:10 PM</span>

[Gladesman]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>So. Because some people you know went AFK during a raid you feel their class was overpowered? What kind of silly reasoning is this? Because the healer reactives gave the tank even more aggro it means that the guardian as a class is overpowered? Right. Even a zerker or a pally were perfectly capable of holding aggro when they were the designated MT, has very little to do with the guardian class.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>I haven't objected to the new aggro management system (- although I do think that rooting myself to keep or gain aggro is plain silly) and yes, it will take some thought from every player to avoid wipes even during simple raids like the Angler or the Darathar drakota's now. But hey, it takes two to tango and working together it what makes this game fun (to me at least).</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>And don't you think it's kind of fair to give the tank who has the least DPS better defensive skills / mitigation as apparently their main usability IS taking hits and this should be with a significant difference that other classes will desire playing with a guardian?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>It's all fine and dandy that other fighters got better tanking skills and that ours were brought down a bit (or a lot, depends on how you look at it), but then why don't we get some utility skills or better DPS - almost on par with a monk or a zerker? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>People who really like the game and want to help and improve it look at themselves first, before they look at others.. and quite frankly, in none of your nearly 6000 posts you've ever looked at your own class and how it holds up against the other fighter classes. The only thing you've focused on since you started playing was sticking to your mantra:  "GUARDIAN MAIN TANK = UNFAIR TO MONKS" and that's just a shame. Really.</FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gladesman wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>It's all fine and dandy that other fighters got better tanking skills and that ours were brought down a bit (or a lot, depends on how you look at it), but then why don't we get some utility skills or better DPS - almost on par with a monk or a zerker?  <FONT color=#ffff00>Sure I suppose.  Utility (and unique utility) is always a good thing.  </FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2>People who really like the game and want to help and improve it look at themselves first, before they look at others.. and quite frankly, in none of your nearly 6000 posts you've ever looked at your own class and how it holds up against the other fighter classes. The only thing you've focused on since you started playing was sticking to your mantra:  "GUARDIAN MAIN TANK = UNFAIR TO MONKS" and that's just a shame. Really.  <FONT color=#ffff00>That really isn't true, but its okay you share a widely common opinion of me.  I actually have talked about my class a lot from the avoidance nerf and why it was fair, to how we were doing way too much damage which was unfair, etc etc.  People don't pay attention to those though.  Go figure.</FONT></FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Auberon_Feykin]

Gaige, people can't find those 3 posts. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Seriously, if you spent more time being constructive and less enjoying the fact that other classes are now worse in comparison to yours (I've seen what our guild monks can do now, and yes, guardians are worse, period) people might listen more.  Not that I've ever known anyone in in FoH to care about what others think, but your opinion(s) are not the only ones in the world which matter.  (if people feel like they've been nerfed to bits, they have a legitimate reason quite frequently.  In this case you can parse a monk and a guardian of around the same level and the monk will tank just fine in groups (no real difference in healing needed) while the guardian certainly doesn't come CLOSE to touching the DPS of the monk.  Then add the self-heal/invis/FD/safe-fall . . . there is a reason that Guardians are complaining.  A *legitimate* reason. I am happy for our guild monks that they have recieved better tanking ability. . . not that they were ever crappy anyway (they could tank in groups, their DPS was good enough (80-90% of a scout), and their FD saved more than a few raids prior to this revamp.  But hey, that doesn't mean I need to be overwhelmingly happy with the fact that guardians have taken what in my opinion (and that of many others, not only of the guardian class) have recieved "the shaft" so to speak.  The funny thing is, you talk about parses . . . those parses you're talking about.  Those guardians wouldn't happen to have ad3/master offensive stances or CAs like Blast would they?  They wouldn't happen to be using high quality dual-wield or 2h weapons? A monk walks up, tanks the crap out of something, and is in DPS mode.  They can, in offensive stance, pump out DPS and tank orange heroics with one healer.  Guardians can do the same . . . all but the pumping out DPS part. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I see no reason that we should consider that, as players, "balanced" or "fair" . . . do you? <div></div>

[Drulak]

<P>And why nerf guardians because of what they could do in a raid. How many guardians are there and how many Guardians that MT a raid ??</P> <P>I bet is something like 10% of Guards have and do MT raids. - So why nerf the lot because of 10%.</P> <P>The one thing that you never got gaige was that it was not the Guardian being Uber , but all buffs etc given to him by other classes made him pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good for a RAID.</P> <P>Solo , normal groups Guardians were NEVER UBER , so get over it. Now we are not even mediocre. we are below par. </P> <P>Before revamp i got invited into grps as MT or sometimes as a second tank - who would be just a small dps/ backup crowd control - if grp was fighting not too tough mobs.</P> <P>Raids i could never get on , as there was never any use for a guard if MT and MA spots were filled.</P> <P>Since revamp i have got into grps if i have started them - one time a guy was shouting out for a tank , so i ooc replied and then sent him a tell , he just ignored me totally <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>But as others have said , its good to be in a good guild <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Tekyn]

<P>I hate to disagree with anyone, so I won't.  I will simply state my observations.</P> <P> </P> <P><U>I like the changes.</U></P> <P>(1)  I have no problem keeping aggro in a group if I work at it.</P> <P>(2)  I have no problem solo'ing, infact I love it!</P> <P>(3)  Healers love having me in a group b/c I take a lot less damage then any other tank and I can still control aggro better.</P> <P>(4)  My DPS kicks [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] now compared to before.</P> <P> </P> <P>/ranton</P> <P>I think people need to understand that tanking is no longer a one-class show anymore, thats what the combat changes are about.  Multiple tanks in a group means multiple tanks, tanking multiple targets.  The game was extremely unbalenced when one class (guardians) were dependant and superior in that we were the focus of all group events.  If you want to continue to enjoy the game, take the time to re-learn everything about your character, check every ability and see what it does, i.e. How many of you use the Hate Transfer ability when you group?</P> <P>Think about the name of our class.... we're a Guardian, we guard people, we defend them, our abilities have been revamped with that in mind.</P> <P>/rantoff</P> <P> </P> <P>-Tekyn, Highest Level Guard on Toxx (53)</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>The one thing that you never got gaige was that it was not the Guardian being Uber , but all buffs etc given to him by other classes made him pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] good for a RAID.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I never "got" it because it wasn't true.  You know why?  If it was just the buffs then you could cast them on any other fighter and get the same results.  Never happened though did it?  Why?  Because it was the class + buffs that caused the trivialization.<BR>

[Vandileir]

<DIV>I have seen a lot of great feed back in this thread. In many ways, my fellow gaurds here have summed up what I couldnt find the words for. I am going to disregard any comments from crusader/brawler archetypes, since they don't appear to be paying attention to what the real problem is. I dont care that I am not the best anymore, I hated raid tanking anyway. Just give me something to make my class feel useful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ultimately playing a guardian right now is rather lack luster, and thank god I made a troub once I hit 50, because at least I have a reasonably high level toon to switch to if things don't change. I thought I was limited before, hah! I have one way to play right now, taunt/position/MD. If I dont do that, I potentially can loose aggro. It's boring to sit there and do that for 5 hours while I grind. There is just nothing reedeming about any of the changes made to us, or nothing done to keep things interesting. Heck, by troub gained as much back as he lost. On my gaurd, I feel like there was just loss.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Theres nothing unique to us anymore. It was a rough road to the 40's, and it was only around then, that Guardians started coming into there own. Now I feel like I am level 30 again. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can solo, but if I get ANY add, I am as good as dead, even if I run usually.</DIV> <DIV>Sure, I can DPS, in my attack stance, when someone else is tanking and the mobs back is to me. Even then, the monk that is tanking the mob face to face out damages me with his defensive stance on.</DIV> <DIV>So I have higher mitigation. Not by much, and it certainly does not seem to make a worth while difference.</DIV> <DIV>So I potentially can have higher HP. Does me no good when I cant kill a mob before it kills me because my mitigation doesnt make up for the lack of DPS.</DIV> <DIV>So I can have a tower shield on. So? It's no better than a kite shield now. And zerkers can use them as well, and do more DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean really, we do not stand out in any way. If I didnt have an amazing guild, I would not get groups I believe. Our one claim to fame was deemed over powered, and now the other tanks are just as good at it. And if that is the logic, my DPS is not as good as a Monks/Bruiser, please either nerf them, or change guards to make equivelant enough that they do not stand out in that aspect anymore. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would that be balanced then? Maybe it would be, but I just can not see it. I just cant help but feel shafted after the revamp. Shafted so hard that I will probably abandon a toon I put months into, that I put a bit of me into, because he is a shell of his former self.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Vandileir on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[SirDra]

<P>No offense man, any fighter could always tank heroics, you problem is you just cant find a group. Thats why you should do /who all lfg and build your own group. As for soloing go to maj dul and kill the faction guys its fine xp. Your upset about problems that are fixable. Our dps currently is not that bad and we can tank just fine compared to other class.</P>