Even Mages Can Tank Better Than Guardians Now

[JBo]

<DIV>Had a group in PoF last night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Full group, including me (level 50 guardian), one healer (level 48 Templar), one necro (level 50), one level 48 guardian, one level 44 wizard, one level 48 dirge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pulled Level 58^^ Orange Cyclops near the Sinking Sands door.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My HP bar dropped to orange as soon as I came back at camp. Dropped to red after few hits, with templar's reactive heals on me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The necro's pet got aggro. Pet dead. Necro got aggro. I was taunting all the way from pull to camp, and still taunting. Nope, cylop likes necro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To my surprise, necro's HP bar is still green. Keep taunting, necro's HP keeps at green.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally mob dead. Necro says: "Take one year for it to hit me, LOL".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was fully buffed, with 1 fabled item, 2 ebon armor(chests, leggings), rest are HQ, quest items and treasured loot. Not the top items, but they are decent.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Continued to pull, and the same thing happened over and over. Necro or wizard got aggro a lot, but their HP never dropped more than orange, most time at green. I dropped to RED constantly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not a good sign to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do you guys think?</DIV>

[Raahl]

<P>Hmm interesting.</P> <P>Were the stats of the necro messed up?  Did he have an abnormally high Avoidance?  If so, how did he get it?  </P> <P>Did you have any buffs on him that would transfer the damage from him to you?</P> <P>Sounds like a serious bug/exploit.</P>

[Raahl]

<P>BTW - Give us more details.  Like his mitigation and avoidance.  Anything that would affect them taking damage.</P> <P>Along with any buffs you might have cast on him or the group.  </P> <P>All the little squishies (mages) I've grouped with have been hit hard.  Now I have yet to group with a necro.   Probably a bug where even after dying the mob is hitting an imaginary pet.</P> <P>Definately report it.</P>

[JBo]

<P>Didn't inspect the necro. Since it happened like this to all the other mages in group, I didn't suspect the necro was using any exploits. I had group defense buff up, but since defense was already nerfed, it really didn't help much. I never use sentry or other damage transfer buffs on other group members.</P> <P>Had another mage, level 50 chanter in group earlier, he got aggro but HP didn't drop much. I understood that he could stun or mez the mob, so it was not a big deal.</P> <P>Then the chanter left, and we got the dirge. I thought with dirge's buffs on me, my avoidance should go up. Nope, I got hit at same rates and same damages. Went to RED constantly.</P> <P>But when mages got aggro, they continued to nuke harder, I think. Mobs usually died with mage's HP bar in orange, seldom in red.</P> <P>I think this has to do with the heavy armor decreasing avoidance thing. Mages wear very light armor, and they don't have much avoidance penalty.</P>

[Raahl]

<P>So in the beginning they were not hit much then the enchanter left and they got hit more?  Am I reading that right?</P> <P> </P> <P>Last night my mid 40's Wizard and Conjurer got hit a bit.  Will pay a little more attention on how often they get hit.  Next time you notice this take a screen shot of the inspect window.  Perhaps we can try and figure what went on.</P>

[JBo]

<P>The chanter and necro were both hit less times than me when they got aggro.</P> <P>I was getting hit like 1 in every 2 times. I took 1 hit, then I block or parry one.</P> <P>Mages were getting hit like 1 in every 3 times.</P> <P>My HP bar went to RED constantly when I was tanking, when mages got aggro, their HP bars went to green or orange mostly, occasionly red.</P>

[davidro]

<DIV>I had a bugg with dueling. When I lost my armor got useless, had to re-equip it to work again. Maybe it was something like that?</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Summoners got mad aggro somehow, its very out of wack. Yah I noticed casters can tank mobs almost as well as tanks can, our mita is so close to theirs these days. <div></div>

[BostonFNO]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Summoners got mad aggro somehow, its very out of wack.<BR><BR>Yah I noticed casters can tank mobs almost as well as tanks can, our mita is so close to theirs these days.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> I was liking some of the changes myself but then ran into some of this are crap. I feedbacked this myself.  Then, I went out soloing some and it takes me like 5 minutes to kill some blue 3 arrow down solo lizardmen group in the desert and  I'm like wow that fight was close but fun... UNTIL some mage comes up and nukes it in a second. I was like OOOOOOOKKKKKKKK... /quit for the night. So grouping was a little less fun and then soloing was even worse. Yikes,  not sure I'm liking the changes anymore after all.

[Noctismort]

<DIV>This is just said. All the time I wasted on my guard to be nerfed to complete crap. Yes I have experianced this first hand as well. Freakin SOE.</DIV>

[skril]

<DIV>The simple fact is they ganked our avoidance nerfed our mitigation and made our taunts ressistable.  All of this really effects our tanking abilities.  Mobs that use to take half at best when running now almost kill me and sometimes do kill me (I submit the run to permafrost for example).  I am a 46 guardian and the difference in the amount of hits I take is astounding.  They need to do something about this because right now I can barely tanke orange and that is a fact.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>spiritmongor 46 guardian of oasis</DIV>

[Drulak]

<P>Yup i have seen this too , since we loose aggro so easily now , as 1: mages cause more dps and we cause so little and 2: we have lost alot of our taunts / DPS (which use to help aggro too)  , mages were constantly getting aggro . Now normally this lasted a second or two , then i would get aggro back , as the mage was dead.</P> <P>Now the mage lives and the healer's have no probs keeping him alive (less so than keeping me alive) and i never get aggro back (the HTL spells are great but only generate aggro if u are hit , if the mage does a huge nuke and pulls aggro , you aint getting it back) </P> <P>BTW anyone else been killed with 2 healers both on near full power ??  just shows that we are the squishies now .</P> <P>Anyone tried taking armour off and tanking ??</P> <P>So i may as well re-roll a Mage as i like tanking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P>

[JBo]

<DIV>After the so called combat changes, there is really no need to taunt anything off any group member, except another plate tank or cleric.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Actually, I am starting to thank the mages in my group now. They now have the abilities to share aggro with us, and I die less now. How ironic is that! LOL :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[skril]

Ya I am just going  to re roll a bard or something I jsut got back from perma and I take more damage now at 46 than I ever did when I first got there at 41.  so from what I can tell the revamp set guardians back about 6 effective levels in tanking ability.

[JBo]

That's true. My feeling is that my tank ability has been set back about 8 levels. I can die easily from grey mobs now if I don't have a healer. I was harvesting in Feerrott, and even the solo green level 40 creeps owned me. The DOTs and constant poison attack, plus lots of melee attack I couldn't avoid, all add up and I just had to run to save my life. Was harvesting in Enchanted Lands earlier, aggroed a level 40 green nightblood, and got owned. I just didn't have enough DPS to kill it and its melee attacks were hitting me like crazy. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a sad and sleepless night for all plate tank classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it's not for the friends who are relying on me and need me in the game, I would have canceled my accounts immediately right now.</DIV>

[Frostborne]

<span><blockquote><hr>JBoot wrote:That's true. My feeling is that my tank ability has been set back about 8 levels. I can die easily from grey mobs now if I don't have a healer. I was harvesting in Feerrott, and even the solo green level 40 creeps owned me. The DOTs and constant poison attack, plus lots of melee attack I couldn't avoid, all add up and I just had to run to save my life. Was harvesting in Enchanted Lands earlier, aggroed a level 40 green nightblood, and got owned. I just didn't have enough DPS to kill it and its melee attacks were hitting me like crazy. <div> </div> <div>This is a sad and sleepless night for all plate tank classes.</div> <div> </div> <div>If it's not for the friends who are relying on me and need me in the game, I would have canceled my accounts immediately right now.</div><hr></blockquote>I feel the same way <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Peadar2]

<P>Hmmm had a similar Mage experience the other night. Level 50 Warlock in our group was tanking at will. When I did pull a mob he'd take aggro with no worries about dying....he'd Nuke the crap out of them before his health got into the orange everytime!</P> <P>So why are we wearing plate armor again?</P>

[Raahl]

<DIV>As far as avoidance goes.  I took off my Fulginate armbrace and replaced it with a chain one from loot and my mit went down 130 and my avoidance when up by .5%.  So tonight I will perform a test with a full set of fulginate chain.</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Peadar2 wrote:<BR> <P>Hmmm had a similar Mage experience the other night. Level 50 Warlock in our group was tanking at will. When I did pull a mob he'd take aggro with no worries about dying....he'd Nuke the crap out of them before his health got into the orange everytime!</P> <P>So why are we wearing plate armor again?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Noticed the same thing, in fact I told him to overnuke on the group mobs and he did, stole aggro no problem, even with maddening defense up, and managed to barely get touched, I'm tempted to try this with call of protection off to see what happens.</P> <P>In fact he told us to not even help him and he soloed yellow con mobs just as fast as we could kill them normally.  Of course I wouldn't complain because they'll either make yellow mobs harder or nerf warlocks, I doubt they'd give us more mitigation.</P> <P>On a side note gotta love what they did to hero's armor a rare H.O. that's now only 3 minutes and 400 mitigation gg sony.</P>

[PantherXX]

<P>I find this all very curious.  I was fighting in a grp with a guard, pallyx2, bruiser, monk (me -- yes another [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] monk on the guardian boards!), and a well equipped warlock (robe of the invoker other legendary gear).  We were attempting to kill the guy in town for the third part of the carpet quest, a 55^^^ mob.  For various reasons, the warlock tried pet pulling a couple of times.  Pet was killed instantly and the mob turned on the warlock bf the guard could taunt off.  EVERY time it happened, the warlock was one-shot killed ... at best two hits and didn't seem to avoid a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thing.  As soon as the guard decided to pull with his bow, he held agro the entire fight (except one steal by the bruiser) and the fight was cake.  </P> <P>I am not questioning anyone else's stories here, but something wierd is definitely going on.  Mage tanking is certainly not across the board.  There must be a specific line of buffs allowing this to happen.  OP mentioned a bard in the grp.  Is this maybe the culprit?  Monk/guardian arguments aside ... I certainly don't want to be out tanked by a mage!</P>

[Aar]

Its also possible they were caster/scout mobs that were unloading high damage long recast arts/spells early in the fight while the guard had aggro. Or, somebody was using stuns in the group when mages got agro. <div></div>

[JBo]

The group buffs certainly can help mages tank longer. I also suspect that the developers have put an upper limit on avoidance of plate tank classes. In other words, even if we wear the same robes as mages, we might not have the same avoidance. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I checked my avoidance before and after the dirge joined our group, and I noticed minimum to 0 avoidance increase on me. but I didn't check the mages.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I did notice that with group buffs on, mages now have very little HP difference with us. I had about 5500 HP fully group buffed, and mages have about 4000 HP.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The level of mobs also make a difference. On yellow to orange mobs (up to double arrows), mage can tank quite a long time with group reactive heals on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your case was with triple arrows mobs, and you didn't have a healer's reactive heals in the group, so that might have caused the mage to die in one shot. Mage's armor and stats also make a difference. I saw quite a few mages with very high AGI stats. With no avoidance penalties on very light armor wearers, that's indeed quite a concern.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, I think another part of reasons that mage can tank well now is that SOE has totally nerfed the role of defense in this combat revamp. In my opinion, defense is like the trainings you receive in the military. A mage should have the least trainings on fight, thus the minimum defense. However, SOE has completely nerfed the defense skills this time, and thus mage with minimum defense can just avoid melee attacks as well as fighter classes now.</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

Actually in this new combat revamp I find it much easier to hold aggro on the triple up mobs, I'm yet to lose aggro to a mage on one of these, its the group mobs they can pull off you easily. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[hyks]

<DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Lets talk about our agro control…. SOE has made guardians weak .. a friend of mine who a bruiser was comparing our taunts and not only do bruisers put out dps but there taunts are much stronger as well… we both are in a high end guild all adept 3s and masters but I don’t see how SOE expects us to tank when our dps is lower and now our taunts > < … oh well, SOE has really screwed up our class!! plzs let me know how u feel about our nerf!!!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[Pry]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> hyksos wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Lets talk about our agro control…. SOE has made guardians weak .. a friend of mine who a bruiser was comparing our taunts and not only do bruisers put out dps but there taunts are much stronger as well… we both are in a high end guild all adept 3s and masters but I don’t see how SOE expects us to tank when our dps is lower and now our taunts > < … oh well, SOE has really screwed up our class!! plzs let me know how u feel about our nerf!!!!</FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I blame Gaige. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I mean 5500 whining posts gotta get a brotha somethin. <p>Message Edited by Prynn on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:53 AM</span>

[hyks]

<DIV><img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <P>Message Edited by hyksos on <SPAN class=date_text>09-16-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:11 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by hyksos on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:11 PM</span>

[Raahl]

Or they were caster mobs and the mages were resisting their attacks?

[hyks]

<FONT size=4>i dont mind bruisers tanking a little more then the first expansion but does it require guardians to be totally nerfed for this to happen? its stupid and there going to lose a lot of customers. i for one might end up leaving eq2 <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT> <p>Message Edited by hyksos on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prynn wrote:<BR> I blame Gaige. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I mean <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>5</STRONG><FONT color=#ffffff>9</FONT><STRONG>00</STRONG></FONT> whining posts gotta get a brotha somethin. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Fixed.  If you feel the need to make fun of me, at least be accurate.<BR>

[Korwyn]

<P>I feel the same...almost betrayed.  I spent so much time leveling a class then they go screw it all up.  When my friend a Warden can still tank 3^ blues because he can root them and they stay rooted and with a healer I can't kill a  a 3^ green it is a sad day for tanks.  Pre nerf I could with caution do Harclaves now I get owned....My Wiz, Warden, Ranger, Monk friends all are having little problems.</P> <P>/bad SOE!!  </P> <P> </P> <P>Cormac 48 Guardian</P> <P> </P>

[ToiletBomb]

I'm sorry guys I'm just not seeing the problem.  I'm a 46 guard, I was 44 when expansion hit and I took an hour soloing to relearn my skills.  I thin duoed with a warlock for 2 levels.  This warlock prepatch could easily take aggro from me.  Now I find myself using less power and holding aggro and even putting out waaay more dps than I ever did before. I am finding no problem whatsoever tanking and I seem to be doing much better all around.  Sure my stats are a bit lower but with everything getting retuned I fight just as well.  I mitigate well when I want to (throwing up mit buffs) and I hold aggro when I need to.  Stances are great and useful now (I notice about a 20dps difference in parses between offensive and defensive in small group situtations).  I am hearing all this complaining but I am just not seeing it.  I'm tanking better than before, I'm holding aggro better, and fights are more manageable now.  If someone could explain why guards are gimped now I would love to hear it ... I'm only seeing huge improvements. <div></div>

[JBo]

<DIV>ToiletBomb, if you can't see the huge difference between pre-patch and post combat revamp, then the only thing I can say is that you didn't pay attention to your classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From your description, you seems lack some group and raid experience. If you were duoing with a warlock mostly and still doing so frequently, then you surely can't see the difference. A group of two without healer like yours couldn't take the mobs which were designed for a full balanced group, be it pre-patch or not. So basically you are fighting relative weaker mobs, and you won't notice that the mobs designed for full groups are hit MUCH harder now. And certainly you won't notice that mobs designed for group can actually RESIST your taunts now. Try put up a full group with a healer and go out kill the herioic mobs at your level, and you will notice what huge nerf we are talking about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Before the so called combat revamp, a single healer, whatever class he/she is, I can tank well if we are about same level. After the combat revamp, two healers are required for most dungeons now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can tell you some of my vital stats:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After combat revamp:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation has been cut from 50% to 30%</DIV> <DIV>HP has decreased from 5000 to 4000</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance has dropped from 50% to 30%</DIV> <DIV>Taunts can be resisted frequently now</DIV> <DIV>More taunts are on same timer now</DIV> <DIV>Only one HP buf can be used at any time now</DIV> <DIV>No deaggro stance exists anymore</DIV> <DIV>Defense is meaningless now</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you didn't pay close attention to your classes before, certainly you can't notice the huge nerf, even if you have spent one whole hour to study your classes after the revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And, I can tell you, 1 hour of studying skills is far less then needed. I spent a whole night on the patch day to study my new skills and finally I drew the conclusion that this combat revamp is a HUGE nerf to our classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you still don't understand what's going on, this is a quick guide for a dummy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After combat revamp, Guardians get hits as frequently as mages, and are hit as hard as scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you surely should understand some very bad things are going on now.</DIV><p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 AM</span>

[eqtaka]

<DIV>I'm a 50 Guardian.   Full Ebon, No fabled.  I have no issues tanking Cyclops with a mix of healers.  Ive gone in with 2 druids and wiped.  Ive tried with a Druid and Shaman and its a no contest in our favor.  The revamp resembles more of EQ1 style fighting.  Shamans with slow and back up healers are important again.  Enchanters are important again. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's important to unlearn what you have learned to win.  We did a level 60^ last night.  It had adds and we had no issues.  A single healer can no longer keep a Tank alive in less then elite gear.  They way spells are timed or taken away prevent this.  Try a second healer of a different type to benefit from the buff lines and debuffing capabilities.  I think you will be more then pleased vs mobs that con Orange to you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Something to keep in mind as well.  Casters with pets can heal their pets, therefore 2 healers for the pet. </DIV><p>Message Edited by eqtaka on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:04 PM</span>

[Maycr]

<P>I have same exp yesterday when pass more time playing... Its sad and i thinking cancel my acc... Guardians turns useless... and SOE dont see it... :smileysad:</P> <P> </P>

[Edyil]

<P>Mage classes can stifle and stun individual mobs repeatedly when things go bad for them.  Most mobs when stifled and stunned 100% of the time do little damage to anyone, including casters healers or tank.  The biggest issue is that getting aggro back from a mage that is spamming his highest aggro defensive spells is almost impossible.  Also, if the mage pet dies, the pet hate is transfered to the Mage IN ADDITION to his current agro.  Nobody will out-taunt that... end of story.</P> <P>Now if you want to tank better, have the mages learn to better control their aggro by stunning and stifling in moderation to help support your HP.  In addition, there is no reason a mage should be using a master2 defensive pet aggro buff while in a group.  If their pet isn't getting agro, then they most likely arent either.  If they are using that class spec then they don't trust their group tank.... which is just adding to the tanking problem from the start.</P> <P>It's the same with my monk.  This weekend I (45) grouped with a lvl 50 Zerker RL friend.  I took aggro on every single mob because 1) I was spamming CAs from behind doing lots of damage and 2) I had my aggro buff on.  Once I took the agro buff off, I never took agro again.  Mages have the same option, just via their pets.  Tell them to change buffs if they arent bright enough to do so on their own.  You probably ended up with some kid in your group that was doing it on purpose.</P> <P>As far as killing groups of much lower level greens, mages can do that fast.  That's what they are built for.  But if they try it with a group of blues, they are dead in seconds, regardless of how many down arrows.</P>

[JBo]

<P>I have inspected lots of mages in my groups, and most of them have about same or more avoidance than I do.</P> <P>The result is that guardians can be hit as frequently as mages. This is ridiculous, as it just means that years of fighter trainings are not helping us at all now.</P>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <P>I have inspected lots of mages in my groups, and most of them have about same or more avoidance than I do.</P> <P>The result is that guardians can be hit as frequently as mages. This is ridiculous, as it just means that years of fighter trainings are not helping us at all now.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think its because heavy armor has an avoidance penalty or some nonsense, its something like different tiers of armor (light, very light, etc) having a certain effect on avoidance, the heavier the less avoidance.  Is it [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] yes mages should be able to dance around and avoid attacks especially when they're casting spells, its about as unrealistic as guardians being able to dodge 80% of the attacks they get in 700 lbs of heavy armor.

[JBo]

<P>Heavy armor might have the effect of dereasing your moving speed.</P> <P>However, does the current design consider the fighter trainings?</P> <P>Mages are specialized in spells, it means they are more kind of scholars, who sit there all day and don't do much excercise. I would be amazed is a scholar can even walk a very long distance.</P> <P>Fighters are specialized in fights, it means they spend their whole life training fight skills. Surely with heavy armor, they can't move very fast. However, fighting is not about moving fast. With your weapon and shield, you should be able to parry and block most of the melee attacks, without even moving your toe a inch.</P> <P>In other words, there is no way that a mage can avoid more attacks than fighters. This would be just ridiculous.</P> <P>I would imagine in the real world, a mage would die instantly if the enemy slashes him with a long sword, while a fighter can block at least 10 attacks before the enemy can even land a hit.</P> <P>Anyway, I think the current game design doesn't take in acount of any of fighter's attributes.</P> <P>Suggestions:</P> <P>1) Give plate tanks more base avoidance. I would suggest at least 30% base avoidance for all fighters.</P> <P>2) Give plate tanks more base mitigation. Without any armor, fighters should have at least 20% base mitigation. As fighters are general stronger people, the meat you have should definitely help you in a fight.</P> <P> </P>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <P>I have inspected lots of mages in my groups, and most of them have about same or more avoidance than I do.</P> <P>The result is that guardians can be hit as frequently as mages. This is ridiculous, as it just means that years of fighter trainings are not helping us at all now.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I think its because heavy armor has an avoidance penalty or some nonsense, its something like different tiers of armor (light, very light, etc) having a certain effect on avoidance, the heavier the less avoidance.  Is it [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] yes mages should be able to dance around and avoid attacks especially when they're casting spells, its about as unrealistic as guardians being able to dodge 80% of the attacks they get in 700 lbs of heavy armor. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just to inform you the average suit of full plate armor in the middle ages weighed 95 lbs. No more weight than the average marine carries into battle today. I own a full suit of plate armor in real life, i can do back flips in it.

[Kelli]

<P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>50 Guard here with full ebon and a few fabled items......I have noticed similar issues with the Warlock and Conjurers.<SPAN>   </SPAN>Working cooperatively (letting me establish aggro) the warlock and conjurer can provide very high DPS and not gain aggro.<SPAN>   </SPAN>However; when the occasionally over do it, they seem to tank the mob just fine.....as long as it is yellow.<SPAN>   </SPAN>There is very little difference between their ability and mine.<SPAN>    </SPAN>Orange mobs were a different story, don't get me wrong they hit me hard as well, but they really put a hurt on the mage classes. </FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>While it is disturbing enough to see mages tank yellow mobs on par with me .....that’s not the really scary part!<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Have you seen how well the conjurer's pet can tank?<SPAN>  </SPAN>While working through the aggro management issues with my regular group we noticed that one of the pet buffs would consistently pull aggro from me.....even when I had established aggro.....the pet would then go on to tank the mob....short of Rescue NOTHING would pull the mob off the pet, not even the warlock unleashing.<SPAN>  </SPAN>When we finally figured out which buff was pulling aggro the conjurer jokingly suggested we should let his pet tank since he seemed to hold aggro so well.<SPAN>  </SPAN>We tried it, and it was devastating for me.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The pet rocked!<SPAN>  </SPAN>It could pull quickly, establish BETTER aggro faster, and the DPS classes could nuke away!<SPAN>   </SPAN>Soon the mobs were dropping like flies!<SPAN>  </SPAN>I switched to the offensive stance and equipped the two hander so I could contribute even more DPS….if you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em .<SPAN>  </SPAN>Sometimes the pet health would get low, but with its aggro holding abilities it did not matter since the mob would die sooooo quickly.</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Sure I was upset about some of the changes, but I also liked some of the improved abilities (Rescue and maddening defense, etc), but the above two issues shows how [Removed for Content] these changes are......</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>My advice look for DPS and a conjurer to group with......the xp is great.<SPAN>   </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Kellic2 on <span class=date_text>09-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:44 PM</span>

[a6eaq]

<HR> Gage wrote: <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Prynn wrote:<BR> I blame Gaige. <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0>  I mean <FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG>5</STRONG><FONT color=#ffffff>9</FONT><STRONG>00</STRONG></FONT> whining posts gotta get a brotha somethin. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Fixed.  If you feel the need to make fun of me, at least be accurate.<BR> <HR> </DIV> <P>Why?  By the time we get your "accurate" number of posts, you have already made 10-20 more!  </P> <P>5,954+ posts in 11 months and a few days, wow, when do you find time to play?  Oh yeah another already figured it out!  BOTmiester!!  J/K Gage.</P>

[Valdar]

<DIV>Hey guys,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looks like you tanks may want some information about mage stats?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In full legendary T5 gear, jboots and an agi buff I manage</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mitigation 711</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance 35.6%</DIV> <DIV>HP about 3k</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is a setup I use for soloing these days. It drops my INT below max by about 100, so in group settings where I can hide behind a tank it's usually a lot lower.</DIV>

[Geothe]

<P>"<SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Have you seen how well the conjurer's pet can tank?<SPAN>  </SPAN>While working through the aggro management issues with my regular group we noticed that one of the pet buffs would consistently pull aggro from me.....even when I had established aggro.....the pet would then go on to tank the mob."</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Then the conjurer was using the wrong pet/stance in your group.    The earth pet has taunts and the defensive stance increases the effectiveness of the taunts.  If the conjurer was grouped with a tank.... he/she should of had their Fire or Air pets out in the offensive stance.   Those ptes have no taunts at all and are DPS.  Having an earthpet out in a group is moronic and you should all yell at any conjurer (or necro) that is using their tanking pets while grouped with a real tank! lol</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>

[Kell]

<SPAN> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geothe wrote:<BR> <P>"<SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff>Have you seen how well the conjurer's pet can tank?<SPAN>  </SPAN>While working through the aggro management issues with my regular group we noticed that one of the pet buffs would consistently pull aggro from me.....even when I had established aggro.....the pet would then go on to tank the mob."</FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Then the conjurer was using the wrong pet/stance in your group.    The earth pet has taunts and the defensive stance increases the effectiveness of the taunts.  If the conjurer was grouped with a tank.... he/she should of had their Fire or Air pets out in the offensive stance.   Those ptes have no taunts at all and are DPS.  Having an earthpet out in a group is moronic and you should all yell at any conjurer (or necro) that is using their tanking pets while grouped with a real tank! lol</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>It was a conjurer and he was using his earth pet.   You are totally correct that the earth pet is for soloing and the other pets are more effective in group situations.  However; this was within a day or two of the expansion going live, and we were all playing with our new abilities.  I regularly group with the conjurer and we try new stuff all the time (compare pet dps, pet pull, etc)</DIV> <DIV>My point is that the conjurer earth pet (adept 3) is at least as good a tank in a group situation as I am.   I think he does take more damage than I do, but he holds aggro so well that everyone can nuke away (warlocks, rangers, you name it) and the mob dies very quickly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I feel i should mention that if/when the pet dies the aggro to the conjurer is.......well.....unreal.  I now taunt occasionaly throughout the fight so if the mob dies I can use rescue and save the conjurer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did I mention that the pet now has a new/improved group taunt?  He can hold multiple (same encounter) mobs with no issues.   We have played like this for a bit now (with the pet as the MT) and I don't hink I have seen the pet's taunts get resisted.  He really is impressive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can see why the pet has great aggro abilities.  Obviously this pet is for soloing and based on the DPS that the conjurer can do, the pet needs to hold aggro effectively.  Thats fine with me!.....I don't care about the pet's abilities, I am only comparng myself to the pet.  I *think* many of the people that took the conjurer assumed they would be able to solo......and as a result I think they should be able to solo effectively.</DIV> <DIV>I chose a tank class.....so i could group and tank effectively.  I just wish there was more of a difference between my abilites and the pets!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe the problem is the pet is adept 3 and I am NOW an App 1 Guardain.</SPAN></DIV>

[JBo]

<P>Kellic wrote:</P> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Maybe the problem is the pet is adept 3 and I am NOW an App 1 Guardain.</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is, a naked apprentice I guardian should always be better than a Master VI pet.</DIV> <DIV>If this is not the case, then there is something wrong in the core design of the system.</DIV>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just to inform you the average suit of full plate armor in the middle ages weighed 95 lbs. No more weight than the average marine carries into battle today. I own a full suit of plate armor in real life, i can do back flips in it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>OMG! dude you have to post some video of this.  I can't even do backflips with pajamas on.</DIV>

[Edyil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <P>Kellic wrote:</P> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Maybe the problem is the pet is adept 3 and I am NOW an App 1 Guardain.</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is, a naked apprentice I guardian should always be better than a Master VI pet.</DIV> <DIV>If this is not the case, then there is something wrong in the core design of the system.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That most certainly is not true.  And it should never be true.  A mages pet IS the mage.  Ask them.  A guard at adept3 quality should outdamage a defensive adept3 mage pet.  Tanking wise they would be about the same, the pet losing out on the guard specials.  But thats where the comparison ends.</P> <P>Stop comparing guards to other classes and stick with fixing your mitigation issues.  If you want to hammer a point home and quite possibly get some results, stay with a mild mitigation plate boost and have its effects increased for plate classes.  That is where you have a chance to succeed in your attempts at change.</P>

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <P>Kellic wrote:</P> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV>Maybe the problem is the pet is adept 3 and I am NOW an App 1 Guardain.</DIV> <DIV>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The point is, a naked apprentice I guardian should always be better than a Master VI pet.</DIV> <DIV>If this is not the case, then there is something wrong in the core design of the system.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>That most certainly is not true.  And it should never be true.  A mages pet IS the mage.  Ask them.  A guard at adept3 quality should outdamage a defensive adept3 mage pet.  Tanking wise they would be about the same, the pet losing out on the guard specials.  But thats where the comparison ends.</P> <P>Stop comparing guards to other classes and stick with fixing your mitigation issues.  If you want to hammer a point home and quite possibly get some results, stay with a mild mitigation plate boost and have its effects increased for plate classes.  That is where you have a chance to succeed in your attempts at change.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.<BR>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If he does tank as good as a guardian I think its time to reroll/find a new tank.</DIV>

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If he does tank as good as a guardian I think its time to reroll/find a new tank.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Try reroll/find a new tankd and let him tank any blue heroic mobs in DoF without a healer. Then replace your new tank with any conjuror and let his pet tank. You will see the difference.<BR></P>

[Kell]

<P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>What is really impressive about the pet is that he can pull from huge distance (even farther than the original entrench) and the pet’s aggro control.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The pet’s taunt is an AOE taunt……and it is CLEARLY superior to mine.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I have Protect at Adept 3 and MD at master 2.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The pet’s AOE taunt is still waaaaay more effective than mine.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I want HIS taunt what do I have to do to get that?</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I don’t mind that my solo abilities are 1/10 of other classes….</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I don’t mind that my PVP/duel abilities are mediocre….</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I don’t care who can solo heroic mobs……</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I don’t mind having low DPS……</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I don’t mind having less “utility” than other classes….</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>I should be able to tank/taunt better than someone’s pet!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2></FONT> </P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>….on the bright side, <SPAN> </SPAN>I have gotten a ton of use out of the offensive stance and a nice two-hander.<SPAN>   </SPAN>Here’s to looking at the back of the mobs!<SPAN>  </SPAN>Cheers!</FONT></SPAN>

[Edyil]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If he does tank as good as a guardian I think its time to reroll/find a new tank.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Try reroll/find a new tankd and let him tank any blue heroic mobs in DoF without a healer. Then replace your new tank with any conjuror and let his pet tank. You will see the difference.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  You need a mitigation boost but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages.

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR>Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  You need a mitigation boost but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The truth is this combat revamp has screwed up all of the plate tank classes. Sure if you only play mage now and then, you won't play your pet well.  <BR>

[Kell]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, a mages pet IS the mage. But, is a mage be supposed to tank? Or even tank as good as a guardian? Have some basic logic please.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If he does tank as good as a guardian I think its time to reroll/find a new tank.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Try reroll/find a new tankd and let him tank any blue heroic mobs in DoF without a healer. Then replace your new tank with any conjuror and let his pet tank. You will see the difference.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  You need a mitigation boost but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Proof, well I don't know what I could provide, other than saying try it yourself.  You say you play a conjurer sometimes.  The take out the earth pet (adept3), have the group buff him and the healers target him, and send him off!  </DIV> <DIV>I am now a 51 Guard thanks to this strategy.  We have used it the last few nights and it works VERY well.  The best part is IF the pet dies, I don't get debt or repair costs!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Pet Buffer</DIV>

[JBo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  <FONT color=#ff0000>You need a mitigation boost</FONT> but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, all plate tank classes need a mitigation bonus. We don't want to get any classes nerfed, unless we have no other choices.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by JBoot on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:47 PM</span>

[Kell]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Edyil wrote:<BR><BR><BR>Still no proof.  I play a mage now and then and any heroic blue spanks the pet to nothing in seconds.  Stick with the truth please.  <FONT color=#ff0000>You need a mitigation boost</FONT> but thats about it.  I have a feeling that the pet taunt will work itself out of the new system, much to the detrement of mages. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, all plate tank classes need a mitigation bonus. We don't want to get any classes nerfed, unless we have no other choices.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by JBoot on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:47 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with you Jboot.  I am not asking for a change to the conjurer or to the pets.  I have stated several times I do care about the pet, only that in comparison to him I am a weaker choice.  If i wanted to cause trouble for the conjurers I would go post in their forums.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Steve11418]

Hi all, 47 Guard here... I theam up with a 47 Furry and a 47 Necro. Standard stradergy now is let the pet tank. (he does as good a job as me taunting... maybe go's down faster than me though) Furry Heals pet Nero Heals pet I Hit monster in the back. If the pet dies.. Neros hits the play dead button.. I hit the rescue button... Furry starts healing me for remainder of fight. Against 3 x  Orange ^ the pet normaly ends up in the red.... somtimes dies... the rest of the time its normaly fine. BTW Furry can deal the damage now... he is like a mini Warlock that can heal <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Ykryo]

<P>51 Guardian here...</P> <P>I grouped with some folks finishing the second stage of the carpet quest.  While out killing the large spectre ghosts by the bay I asked that they let the Necromancer's pet try tanking one after watching him offtank one of the add's with little problem and how much effort it took to peel anything off the pet... </P> <P>The pet starts pulling .. no more adds</P> <P>The pet consistantly makes it back to camp with about the same health I was</P> <P>Once in camp, the pet appeared to take *slightly* more of a beating than I was but the Templar still had very few problems keeping up.</P> <P>The end result was that things died far quicker than they had previously and just felt a lot easier.  It was *very* difficult to peel things off the pet so folks(including me) really opened up offensively.   The one or two times the pet died (and nobody cared!) I grabbed aggro with Rescue and finished the job.</P> <P>I must admit it was a bit depressing to play secondary tank to a pet.</P> <P> </P>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkarlSpeedbump wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Just to inform you the average suit of full plate armor in the middle ages weighed 95 lbs. No more weight than the average marine carries into battle today. I own a full suit of plate armor in real life, i can do back flips in it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>OMG! dude you have to post some video of this.  I can't even do backflips with pajamas on.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>It was done on Mail Call on the discovery channel during prime time TV. Sorry you are out of shape. <p>Message Edited by Aethane on <span class=date_text>09-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:50 AM</span>

[Sixmai]

Well in the terrible situation we are facing, the devs fortunately let us a few remedy : If you remove your shield, your weapon, and use form of the rook, you can pretend to be a earth pet ! Uber for the Guardian to get a group. Berserker have to use their fluff spell which put them on fire, and using a wand to cast, they can pretend to be a fire pet. Paladin are quite ok since they can heal the pets ! But the true shaft, as usual, is for the Shadowknight, they can no more pretend to be a necro pet, since the dev nerfed their skeleton form <span>:smileysad:.</span>