Taunting in groups?

[DanielAtchison]

i was in a group with today with a 45 monk and a 45 templar, as soon as the monk was using any skills i would lose aggro, i have 6 taunts and i was using them all and still couldnt get aggro back, i use rescue and it came back the next taunt i did. Is any1 else having problems keeping aggro? and if you arent could you please give me some hints on what to do or what im doing wrong? <div></div>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DanielAtchison wrote:<BR>i was in a group with today with a 45 monk and a 45 templar, as soon as the monk was using any skills i would lose aggro, i have 6 taunts and i was using them all and still couldnt get aggro back, i use rescue and it came back the next taunt i did.<BR>Is any1 else having problems keeping aggro? and if you arent could you please give me some hints on what to do or what im doing wrong?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dont know about anyone else, but Im glad to see Im not the only one. I had a hell of a time keeping aggro last night. ATM Im chalking it up to having to relearn how to play my toon rather than Guardians being nerfed into oblivion...

[Be-min]

<DIV>I had the same problem at first, they have changed the way we have to do things.  Instead of just taunting and using group buffs for agro control (Quickly found out that wasn't working), I instead actually used my Attacks!  Between using some good damage attacks, powerdrains, interupts and my taunts I had no trouble keeping agro in a high DPS group.  Make sure you are using your Hold the line taunt (or its upgrade), this taunt lineis VERY nice especially now that you can turn it on and off  with no re-use timer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Be-min on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:07 AM</span>

[NoEsca]

If it makes you feel any better, it isn't just Guardians having taunt/agro issues. Just tanked for an Everling group as a 31 Bruiser and could not for the life of me keep agro. The final straw was after I hit a creature with 2 Slurred Insult (Adept I)s [single taunt], 2 Jeer (Master II)s [group taunt], and a Rescue (Adept I) inside of 20 seconds and the thing didn't even so much as glance at me. Have to say, not being able to keep agro no matter what I do is severly disheartening me.

[Belce]

Thanks Be-min, good to see there is something we can consider doing to maintain agro. 

[a6eaq]

I am a 50 Guard and I had no problems keeping aggro from a 50 Palay/Zerker/Fury last night.  Of course I had Maddening Defense Master 2.  I never lost agro once I cast that.  If I didn't cast it, it could loose it if the fury had to heal me a lot, but I always got it back pretty quickly.  I could even run low on power using CAs as long as I had MD up.  It was rather nice not to have to spam taunts to keep aggro.

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>DanielAtchison wrote:i was in a group with today with a 45 monk and a 45 templar, as soon as the monk was using any skills i would lose aggro, i have 6 taunts and i was using them all and still couldnt get aggro back, i use rescue and it came back the next taunt i did. Is any1 else having problems keeping aggro? and if you arent could you please give me some hints on what to do or what im doing wrong? <div></div><hr></blockquote> What buffs did the monk have up?  They have at least one that I know of that has a chance to proc hate on every hit they do (as opposed to procing when you get hit).. if he has that up it's going to be hard..</span><div></div>

[Bhuhdiy]

<P>My group last night was Guardian (me), Defiler, Monk, Wizard, Warlock, Necro, all level 50.  We were absolutely flying through groups of 58-59 ^^ and ^^^</P> <P>The Defiler didn't have too much trouble keeping me alive, unless we had 2 of the above listed groups on us at once, and then it was always close.</P> <P>I had no trouble keeping agro off the monk, and if he did take agro first (offtanking or pulling), I could get it back with 1-2 taunts.</P> <P>Rescue is amazing now.  Target a mob, get close, hit rescue, he will love you long time, no exceptions.</P> <P>Hold the line is much easier to use, and it can be clicked on and off instantly (no recast, no recovery time).  It took some getting used to, but basically it's always on when I'm tanking unless I have to chase something.  Then I click it off, run where I need to go, click it back on.  A nice little side effect of having such low avoidance, is I get hit most of the time now, which means more agro.</P> <P>After experimenting with several tactics I found one that seemed to work well most of the time.  On pulling, the first thing I cast is hold the line (whatever it's called now - Maddening Stance?).  Then cast Protect to make sure they all come after me.  Have the dps-ers wait a few seconds while the mobs beat on me (each hit from a mob increases anger for that mob).  As long as I was able to establish HTL, get my Protect off before getting stifled, the Wiz/Warlock could nuke with impunity.  And believe me, their damage is amazing now.  </P> <P>I found that casting more taunts/group bufs actually made it worse for me, I'm not positive of this, but I believe if you are mid-cast when a mob hits you, the Hold The Line agro will not cast when you get hit.  So just keep melee-ing and let the HTL build agro.  Save your taunts for the rare case where the healer gets agro, <U>usually</U> hitting every single taunt I had would get agro back off the healer.  If a caster got agro, I was almost <U>never</U> able to get it back.</P> <P>Most important thing for agro management is as someone mentioned above - it's a group effort.  Just be sure your dps classes don't go on a nuke-fest.  When they did, I would lose agro to the Wiz/Warlock/Necro every time, and once agro was lost I could NOT get it back (unless I used rescue).</P> <P>So in conclusion:</P> <UL> <LI>Yes I get hit a lot more, but that's not all bad since every successful hit on me generates hate. </LI> <LI> The only problem I had with healer agro was if I proximity pulled with the Defiler's ward bufs on.  The agro from the wards would send them chasing the defiler - so be sure to pull with an arrow or taunt.  </LI> <LI>Monk was unable to take agro from me, and it was very easy to get a mob off the monk.</LI> <LI>The casters will be able to take agro from you if they want to, nothing you can do about it unless you blow rescue.  Make sure they exercise discretion with their DPS.</LI> <LI>Hold the Line (Maddening Stance) is absolutely our best agro tool.</LI></UL> <P>Oh and one other thing, sorta off topic.  Mage roots now last 50 seconds, and don't get resisted much.  If you get more than you can handle, let the mage root one and back up.  Works very well for crowd control.</P> <P>Message Edited by Bhuhdiy on <SPAN class=date_text>09-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:14 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Bhuhdiy on <SPAN class=date_text>09-14-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:15 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Bhuhdiy on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:16 PM</span>

[Landiin]

Guys if you are doing your taunts and CA's and still losing agro its not you bad. Its the person that is tanking agro that hasn't learned his class yet. Before people went all out and we was able to some how keep agro. Now like in EQlive, people have to learn agro controle or die. Witch is why they took out group debt IMHO, because people are so use to press, press, press with out a care, now if they don't know agro crontole the can just die<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Finedo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Landiin wrote:Guys if you are doing your taunts and CA's and still losing agro its not you bad. Its the person that is tanking agro that hasn't learned his class yet. Before people went all out and we was able to some how keep agro. Now like in EQlive, people have to learn agro controle or die. Witch is why they took out group debt IMHO, because people are so use to press, press, press with out a care, now if they don't know agro crontole the can just die<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><hr></blockquote>  well said i know i have no prob in a ggroup to hold agro with taunt /taunt / CA/ CA/ Taunt/Buff so forth but when dps thinks they can go crazy and crap dps i throw on my Guardian sphere and just sit back and save my pwer for next fight and say agro control is key. Its not that we suck at agro now its the others need to not go DPS happy cuz in the end i will laugh when they have debt and i dont.</span><div></div>

[Tro]

<DIV>I see this way too much unfortunately.. If I lose aggro, other group members say to me .. "Whats the problem".. Well when I pull the mob in and before it even steps in camp it is on the warlock or whoever.. That tells me that warlock did something way too soon. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have to give the tank a chance to get some aggro built up early on before the other group members let loose. Thats group management 101. Not a rocket science.. Pretty much any class can steal aggro if they want.. If I have just a little time to build some aggro, things go much smoother..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The bottom line is that it is the entire groups responsibility to keep the mob on the tank.</DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>All tanks are going to have this pain for the next couple of weeks whilst other classes learn to manage their aggro. Before the Revamp, aggro was trivial due to reactive coding and taunt bugs and DPS classes could unload with impunity. Now they will have to learn, unfortunately the blame will be placed at the tanks feet for the next couple of weeks till everyone realises aggro must be managed.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[NoEsca]

<DIV>To an extent those of you citing agro management are correct, with the increase to scout/mage damage output they do have to be more careful of what they're doing to avoid become smears on the cave floor. <EM>But</EM>, there is definitely something wrong with taunts. Now, I'm not a Guardian, so maybe you guys have things a little different than we Bruisers do, but I lost agro to a 30 Ranger yesterday on his first attack—after I'd hit the MOB he was attacking with a Master II AOE taunt. I should not be losing agro to a single attack after using a Master II taunt, and certainly not to a Ranger a level below me, who's using mostly Apprentice IVs and a last-tier bow. Just my $0.02…</DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>Well if that first shot was a back shot stealth bow attack...then yes, you are going to lose aggro.</P> <P>Consider a mob</P> <P>Target A: Shouting at me</P> <P>Target B: Just put a poison arrow into my back</P> <P>Which would you hit first?</P>

[NoEsca]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <P>Well if that first shot was a back shot stealth bow attack...then yes, you are going to lose aggro.</P> <P>Consider a mob</P> <P>Target A: Shouting at me</P> <P>Target B: Just put a poison arrow into my back</P> <P>Which would you hit first?</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>By that rationale, every taunt should be inferior to every damage-dealing attack. But clearly this is not the intent. A Master II taunt <EM>should</EM> trump an Apprentice IV attack, no matter what that attack is—assuming, of course, rough parity in levels. I wouldn't expect a Tier 3 Master II taunt to outclass a Tier 6 Apprentice IV attack. But that isn't the case here.

[Drksens]

Well I happen to be the ranger( I also happen to be a 46 guardian). The intial attack wasn't a hidden shot..it was an app 4 wounding arrow...I didn't get a poison proc...oh and I waited till he had taunted and established aggro.Also as soon as the first mob died the second in the group started charging me( yes that aggro clear bug is back) even though I had never hit it.

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drksensei wrote:<BR>Well I happen to be the ranger( I also happen to be a 46 guardian). The intial attack wasn't a hidden shot..it was an app 4 wounding arrow...I didn't get a poison proc...oh and I waited till he had taunted and established aggro.Also as soon as the first mob died the second in the group started charging me( yes that aggro clear bug is back) even though I had never hit it. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I too have a ranger, have not played him yet after DoF.  I could imagine the look on your face when they charged you.</P> <P>[oh this is gonna hurt]   LOL.</P>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Landiin wrote:<BR>Guys if you are doing your taunts and CA's and still losing agro its not you bad. Its the person that is tanking agro that hasn't learned his class yet. Before people went all out and we was able to some how keep agro. Now like in EQlive, people have to learn agro controle or die. Witch is why they took out group debt IMHO, because people are so use to press, press, press with out a care, now if they don't know agro crontole the can just die<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is nailing the issue right now! I have a 50 guardian but havent played her yet so i dont know how to play with the new changes, altough i have a 50 coercer and been stealing agroe from tanks a lot and the tanks were even really baddass good at holding agroe tanks b4 revamp!</P> <P>I think its much easier for a warlock or a wizzy or whatever caster that has straightforward damage to know the agroe limit of their tanks! Coercer on the other hand is a tad harder i havent quite mastered it yet. Let me explain how Coercers were pre revamp first: They couldnt make a hole in a lil butter box! EVEN if they went ALL OUT! i only got agroe from adds cause of breeze agroe this agroe seems gone now!</P> <P>Now after revamp they changed around the way i do dps i do not have a straight nuke well i do but they are lower then 300 damage per nuke. Now the way i deal damage is by making it hurt the mob if they cast or use power and currently its really random sometimes it doenst proc a whole fight and sometimes it rocs 5/6 times in a row!</P> <P>If it does proc 5/6 times even 3 or so then it means death for me thats around 5 k damage for 3 procs or even 8 k on 5 dependin on which spell was casted first. So the original poster is entirely correct its not the guardians fault for losing agroe YET! its us casters we have to relearn the limit of our tank agroe abilities and therefor we have to group a lot etc.</P> <P>Dont worry we will get it in the end when my coercer hits 60 ill go check out my tank</P> <P>Breezy Summerblaze 50 Coercer of LucanDlere</P> <P>Shades Summerblaze 50 Guardian of LucanDlere</P> <P>Cloaked Summerblaze 50 Provisioner of LucanDlere</P>

[Nemi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NoEscape wrote:<BR><BR><BR>By that rationale, every taunt should be inferior to every damage-dealing attack. But clearly this is not the intent. A Master II taunt <EM>should</EM> trump an Apprentice IV attack, no matter what that attack is—assuming, of course, rough parity in levels. I wouldn't expect a Tier 3 Master II taunt to outclass a Tier 6 Apprentice IV attack. But that isn't the case here. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, but by your rationale you should not need to use any combat arts because your taunts should be sufficient to cover your aggro generating needs. My point was taunts are one aspect of aggro management, DPS should start of light and ramp up to full DPS during the fight. To lead off with high damaging attacks before the tank has built good aggro through Autoattack/CA and cycle of taunts is asking to lose aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But this is only my thoughts on how aggro should work (much like EQ1). It should not be the case of mash a couple of taunt keys and hey presto, solid lock aggro for the duration of the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But to the point in hand, the ranger mentioned he waited till you had gained aggro before using wounding arrow but also states the aggro clear bug is back. Perhaps it is the aggro bug that caused you to lose aggro or perhaps SoE has made some MoBs have really bad aggro rules.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who knows, either way it makes for an exciting game, no?</DIV>

[Halade]

<DIV>have to agree with MD Master II, guards who didn't choose it are def going to struggle with aggro more than those who did.  That aside, i've found that I prefer having a brawler tank, and then i buff/mitigate healers in case they draw aggro.  the 360 parry skill helps them require less healing than I do, but we hold aggro about the same.  MD, + protect adept3 and taunting assault with CA's and solo taunt peppered in seem sufficient enough to hold aggro against solo and group mobs in small and large groups.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have not tried any raids yet though, so perhaps it's a different story there, or I just haven't read the all the boards yet.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>in terms of the ranger issue... rangers, and most other DPS classes can easily take aggro at will.  Using de-aggro skills between CA's is critically necessary.  Even at 44 I can steal aggro from a lvl 50 tank at will.  Culling the heard with a pouncing attack into hidden fire, and i'll be waiting for a rez....  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Happy hunting!</DIV>

[Drksens]

<P>Everything we fought had the same aggro rules....also wounding arrow is the weakest attack I have..and I pulled aggro off the first mob..and then had the second charge me after we killed the first...so no it wasn't the aggro clear bug that caused the first. Also the bruiser is question was using offensive stance and all his combat arts and the mob didn't even flinch off me.I also had the aggro reducer buff on..and was using the evade line.</P> <P> </P> <P> As for the thought that crossed my mind it was " I KNEW we should have grabbed a healer"</P> <p>Message Edited by Drksensei on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:38 AM</span>

[NoEsca]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> NoEscape wrote:<BR><BR><BR>By that rationale, every taunt should be inferior to every damage-dealing attack. But clearly this is not the intent. A Master II taunt <EM>should</EM> trump an Apprentice IV attack, no matter what that attack is—assuming, of course, rough parity in levels. I wouldn't expect a Tier 3 Master II taunt to outclass a Tier 6 Apprentice IV attack. But that isn't the case here. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, but by your rationale you should not need to use any combat arts because your taunts should be sufficient to cover your aggro generating needs. My point was taunts are one aspect of aggro management, DPS should start of light and ramp up to full DPS during the fight. To lead off with high damaging attacks before the tank has built good aggro through Autoattack/CA and cycle of taunts is asking to lose aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But this is only my thoughts on how aggro should work (much like EQ1). It should not be the case of mash a couple of taunt keys and hey presto, solid lock aggro for the duration of the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But to the point in hand, the ranger mentioned he waited till you had gained aggro before using wounding arrow but also states the aggro clear bug is back. Perhaps it is the aggro bug that caused you to lose aggro or perhaps SoE has made some MoBs have really bad aggro rules.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who knows, either way it makes for an exciting game, no?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. I'm not saying I shouldn't have to use any combat arts—what I'm saying is that a Master II taunt should outclass an Apprentice IV attack as far as hate generation goes. The problem I'm running into is, my taunts don't actually seem to do anything. Yes, I can hold agro by sheer DPS, but there are three problems with that: first, most of my high-damage attacks have 30-60 second recharges so I can only effectively DPS agro one creature per normal-length fight. Second, in experimenting with DPS agro I've found that it requires me to put out the same amount of non-taunt CA-based hate with or without taunts. Third, in order to be at my best tanking I have to be in defensive stance, which strips away about 3 levels worth of to-hit ranks, so I'm far more reliant on my taunts because they have a much better shot at landing. To me that says that taunts are <EM>not</EM> working correctly. Do I want a system where I AOE taunt once and then go smoke a cigarette? Of course not. I enjoy tactical combat and having to make those decisions of offensive versus defensive stance, damage versus utility abilities, etc. But I would like a system in which my class defining abilities, you know, <EM>do</EM> something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S. If I understand the hate-clear bug, that wasn't what happened with the first creature when I lost agro to a single attack. It was, however, what happened with his linked friend who I then had to taunt/beat in the back of the head to get him off the Ranger.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Edit: DrkSensei's above post is slightly inacurate. I was in defensive stance for that encounter, although I can understand why he thought I wasn't—I had been joking about tanking just as well as pre-LU13 when in offensive and never mentioned when I swapped to defensive. We were about to take on some nameds and I didn't want to take chances with not being able to avoid/soak the damage they were going to put out, and I just hadn't flipped back to offensive stance afterwards.</DIV><p>Message Edited by NoEscape on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:48 AM</span>

[Nemi]

<DIV>Hmm, a tank should have the taunts and skills available to hold aggro for a group assuming the group knows what its doing. If that is not the case then your taunts are needing looked at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is your taunt skills providing in +aggro? I'll compare to a Monks and see where we're at. Monks only have 2 direct taunts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Single target taunt</DIV> <DIV>2) AoE taunt</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>we also have a buff that gives a % chance to proc a 'small' taunt when we hit a mob</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets compare</DIV>

[Noctide]

<DIV>I wouldnt worry too much.  Most of the problem lies with the dps classes getting use to their new abilities and managing their hate.  Its gonna be a bigger problem in pick up groups for a while though then good regular or guild groups. I was able to adapt my fighting tactics after one day of xping with a guild group.  Wizards have alot more front load damage now and we can easily pull agro if we chain cast like we use too.  We now have stuff like a new improved tank proc buff that lasts 20 secs and adds 500 damage up to 3 times when the tank is hit, Ice Comet with a 300+ INT adept 3 with fabled gear putting my evoc at level 52 making the spell hit for 5 to 6K, a point blank AE that hits all and unlimited mobs in a 7.5 radius for 800sh damage, 2 more nukes at 1000 each, AE hitting up to 5 mobs for 505 damage each, dumbfire pets lasting a minute and doing good dps now, stifles, etc...its the Wizards job to learn their new spell lines and adapt and contol their casting to leave the hate on the tank.  Same goes for any DPS class, I would nicely tell anyone in a group that keeps drawing agro to adjust their tactics and slow there up front dps instead of the old way of just pressing everybutton as fast as they can.  I would at least make sure your upgraded to adept 3's as soon as possible and relearn which guard skills now are best at holding agro, thats the best you can do and that should be enough...our Guard was able to hold agro really well after the dps classes slowed down their frontload damage.  SK did really well as well without loosing agro too, so its possible I am guessing for any tank class o do well with competent dps classes.  Don't get mad at people though, give everyone time to adjust to the new system and offer advice where you can to make the transition fun.  GL and stay in the game, we need you =)</DIV>

[SkySava]

<P>You know, at first I was upset at the ineptitude of my Guardians agro management with the revamp. Now that I look at it again, I'm not so sad. Previously, the tank would hold the agro until he died. When he went down the group ran away and regrouped. This way just I took armor damage but everyone shared in the exp debt. NOW.... there is no exp debt, I can no longer pull mobs off of scouts and casters, if they over nuke they they die and guess what... I still live. Heck, I the best mitigation of the group! I can see everyone else go down from not knowing how to play their class, and then I can run and totally survive the escape. Sweet! Even better... I take No, zero, notta exp debt and no armor loss! WOOT! </P> <P>Thus, the people who are gonna take the debt and armor damage are those who think they can spam their buttons like before and take the agro away from the tank. Since we can no longer reclaim hate, once they pull the agro from me they'd better kill the thing fast or their dead. Not so bad for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That may sound self centered but we were the ones that got nerfed to hell and they got all the upgrades. You reap what you sow. </P>

[Landiin]

<DIV>DMG agro + taunts is the key to pulling agro back off of people. Normaly if I lose agro if after two taunts its not back on me I can smack it a couple of times with some hard strikes or a shild bash and it gets its attintion. IMO hate is workign correctly now. You must build it up to keep it. So you pull with what ever and taunt it once and someone lays down a big nuke or hit befor you ahve had time to taunt it severl times then they are going to get agro becuase you havn't build up your hate lead yet. So all they need to do is wait on doing there spike dmg untill about 90% then do it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In raids this will be a verry big key issue, Assist are going to have to be called now like in EQlive. No more tank pulls every one starts their key pressing. Now it'll have to go tank pulls, tank positions, tank taunts, taunts,( builds agro) then calls for the assist and people start adding dps. Other wise Tank pulls raid wipe<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Landiin]

<DIV> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkySavage wrote:<BR> <P>You know, at first I was upset at the ineptitude of my Guardians agro management with the revamp. Now that I look at it again, I'm not so sad. Previously, the tank would hold the agro until he died. When he went down the group ran away and regrouped. This way just I took armor damage but everyone shared in the exp debt. NOW.... there is no exp debt, I can no longer pull mobs off of scouts and casters, if they over nuke they they die and guess what... I still live. Heck, I the best mitigation of the group! I can see everyone else go down from not knowing how to play their class, and then I can run and totally survive the escape. Sweet! Even better... I take No, zero, notta exp debt and no armor loss! WOOT! </P> <P>Thus, the people who are gonna take the debt and armor damage are those who think they can spam their buttons like before and take the agro away from the tank. Since we can no longer reclaim hate, once they pull the agro from me they'd better kill the thing fast or their dead. Not so bad for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That may sound self centered but we were the ones that got nerfed to hell and they got all the upgrades. You reap what you sow. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ROFLMA never really thought of that way.. RIGHT ON!</P></DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>SkySavage wrote:<p>You know, at first I was upset at the ineptitude of my Guardians agro management with the revamp. Now that I look at it again, I'm not so sad. Previously, the tank would hold the agro until he died. When he went down the group ran away and regrouped. This way just I took armor damage but everyone shared in the exp debt. NOW.... there is no exp debt, I can no longer pull mobs off of scouts and casters, if they over nuke they they die and guess what... I still live. Heck, I the best mitigation of the group! I can see everyone else go down from not knowing how to play their class, and then I can run and totally survive the escape. Sweet! Even better... I take No, zero, notta exp debt and no armor loss! WOOT! </p> <p>Thus, the people who are gonna take the debt and armor damage are those who think they can spam their buttons like before and take the agro away from the tank. Since we can no longer reclaim hate, once they pull the agro from me they'd better kill the thing fast or their dead. Not so bad for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That may sound self centered but we were the ones that got nerfed to hell and they got all the upgrades. You reap what you sow. </p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> After doing some work on beta and tracking the changes to stuff I have been predicting for a couple weeks to my guildies that it is going to be entertaining watching all the scouts die from pulling agro until they learn to pace themselves <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> After it went live and I saw that the haste spell for my swashy not only ups my hate, but has a chance to proc over and over increased hate I can definately see lots of dead medium armor types <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Haven't grouped yet with my lower level warlock since the changes.. but the nukes are big.. and -before- the change I had difficulties learning to pace myself.. its gonna be a bloodbath ground zero for me I think til I get it all figured out.</span><div></div>

[JackBurtonBTLC]

" i was in a group with today with a 45 monk and a 45 templar, as soon as the monk was using any skills i would lose aggro, i have 6 taunts and i was using them all and still couldnt get aggro back, i use rescue and it came back the next taunt i did. Is any1 else having problems keeping aggro? and if you arent could you please give me some hints on what to do or what im doing wrong?" your not doing anything wrong, I have been watching all the tank boards and post patch, everything has changed. learning to play in a group is very painful, as its guess work to learn how to play together with out getting killed. Tanks in general loose aggro WAY easier now. Which means healers, and DPS'r must back off, and allow the tank to build up to steam some aggro or its game over.... Personally I liked the old system better.... thanks SOE.. <div></div>

[NoEsca]

<DIV>So, an update on the agro situation (at least, here's what I've found.) Upgraded Slurred Insult to Adept III (they weren't kidding about upping the rare rate—two opals, an oak, and two glimmering flowers in about 3 hours.) The upgrade in and of itself seemed to have no effect on holding or regaining agro. In defensive stance still lost agro to 1 hit after two Jeer (Master II)s had successfully been applied. Switched to offensive stance. Suddenly things were staying on me after a single taunt even when I was hitting a different creature within that encounter. Now, the difference in holding agro that I saw was too large to be due simply to the increased damage of offensive stance—I just wasn't putting out <EM>that</EM> much more damage. I have to believe that hate generation is slowed by defensive stance and sped up by offensive stance, which to an extent makes sense…but, it kind of leaves you with the choice of "hold agro" or "be able to withstand holding agro." Seems like a lose/lose to me. I'll let y'all know if I notice anything else.</DIV>

[machbane]

<DIV>I play a 47 guardian who also mentors quite a bit. I have liittle trouble getting and holding agro unless casters land something on the mob before it even reaches me. Thats their f-up not mine. One problem on a group of mobs is healers getting agro from a mob that I wasn't directly attacking and that is after I have used my ae taunt, ae hate attack, ae attack. Those extra mobs should be glued to me at that point. I also play a 32 templar, I have noticed a huge increase in heal agro since the patch. One heal within the first 5 seconds of a fight and any grouped mobs (also single mobs)will agro me and that is with a reactive heal(supposed to be low agro).  Yes i know just how long it takes a tank to get off his 2 taunts and hate attacks, but with the damage mitigation and avoid nerf heals have to land very quickly at the start of a fight. getting behind and having to use a direct heal just makes things worse and also uses too much power. </DIV>

[Raahl]

Last night I started using the HTL line to help keep aggro.   Worked well.  Still needed to have our mystic hold off on warding me till about 5 seconds into the fight.

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Noctide wrote:<BR> <DIV>I wouldnt worry too much.  Most of the problem lies with the dps classes getting use to their new abilities and managing their hate.  Its gonna be a bigger problem in pick up groups for a while though then good regular or guild groups. I was able to adapt my fighting tactics after one day of xping with a guild group.  Wizards have alot more front load damage now and we can easily pull agro if we chain cast like we use too.  We now have stuff like a new improved tank proc buff that lasts 20 secs and adds 500 damage up to 3 times when the tank is hit, Ice Comet with a 300+ INT adept 3 with fabled gear putting my evoc at level 52 making the spell hit for 5 to 6K, a point blank AE that hits all and unlimited mobs in a 7.5 radius for 800sh damage, 2 more nukes at 1000 each, AE hitting up to 5 mobs for 505 damage each, dumbfire pets lasting a minute and doing good dps now, stifles, etc...its the Wizards job to learn their new spell lines and adapt and contol their casting to leave the hate on the tank.  Same goes for any DPS class, I would nicely tell anyone in a group that keeps drawing agro to adjust their tactics and slow there up front dps instead of the old way of just pressing everybutton as fast as they can.  I would at least make sure your upgraded to adept 3's as soon as possible and relearn which guard skills now are best at holding agro, thats the best you can do and that should be enough...our Guard was able to hold agro really well after the dps classes slowed down their frontload damage.  SK did really well as well without loosing agro too, so its possible I am guessing for any tank class o do well with competent dps classes.  Don't get mad at people though, give everyone time to adjust to the new system and offer advice where you can to make the transition fun.  GL and stay in the game, we need you =)</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Heh yeah. Those Summoners especially need to learn to calm down on their spells now that they do damage <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Warlocks especially, from my experiance, need to learn not to cast devistaion-quality spells at the very beginning of the fight... Its kind of rediculous. I dont know if people acually re-read all their skills/spells before they start using them, or bothered to read the update notes and noticed that some of their skills will be giving them agro now, and that can cause problems. This includes healers. If a cleric puts a reactive on you before a fight, especially thier group one, agro is going to go right to them fast, sux. It especialy sucks against groups of mobs or more than one encounter. SK's Tainted caress and Guards maddening defense will help some, but if they mainly use those it builds up more agro than insta heals.</P> <P>Its all about re-learning classes and cooperation. It sucks when you group with people that want to do thier own thing as if they were solo, including not assisting =(. I have my own group setup of people that rock at what they do, and my SK has no problems becauseof this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>PS. Now that there is now group debt - non tanks that like to take agro because you can, go ahead and die i dun care <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> FD<BR>hahahah! j/k</P>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SkySavage wrote:<BR> <P>You know, at first I was upset at the ineptitude of my Guardians agro management with the revamp. Now that I look at it again, I'm not so sad. Previously, the tank would hold the agro until he died. When he went down the group ran away and regrouped. This way just I took armor damage but everyone shared in the exp debt. NOW.... there is no exp debt, I can no longer pull mobs off of scouts and casters, if they over nuke they they die and guess what... I still live. Heck, I the best mitigation of the group! I can see everyone else go down from not knowing how to play their class, and then I can run and totally survive the escape. Sweet! Even better... I take No, zero, notta exp debt and no armor loss! WOOT! </P> <P>Thus, the people who are gonna take the debt and armor damage are those who think they can spam their buttons like before and take the agro away from the tank. Since we can no longer reclaim hate, once they pull the agro from me they'd better kill the thing fast or their dead. Not so bad for me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> That may sound self centered but we were the ones that got nerfed to hell and they got all the upgrades. You reap what you sow. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You sir sound like a shadowknight! Excellent! Thats exactly how its gonna be for me as well. im not saving any psychos butt if they wanna let lose at thier own free will. saves me power and effort <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Raahl]

<P>To me it doesn't matter that we no longer share exp debt.  </P> <P>The problem is that typically when one member goes down others soon follow, especially if it's the healer that goes down.</P> <P> </P>