DoF Combat Changes Feedback (Guardians ONLY) [Archive]

Corv

09-14-2005, 08:31 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>Lyrus-D wrote:Honestly, when a topic is titled guardians only, it's only going to entice others to take a look. Besides, it is an open forum, no sense in trying to discriminate. I peruse the other classes forums to get an idea what other classes are capable, and don't see them making topics for furies only. If your grudge is against one person, ignore that person. It's as simple as that. <hr></blockquote>I think the original poster just wanted to keep this thread from degenerating into yet another interclass flame-fest. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask others to check their baggage at the door and keep it civil, but who am I kidding? ;p Personally, I haven't had enough of a chance to play with the changes. I've been in beta, but they really changed things a massive ammount in just the last few days, so it feels new even to beta players. With the zoning problems, server downtime, etc. I still haven't had much of a chance to play, so I'm reserving judgement on some aspects of the changes. I'll speak up on others though. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> They took away a lot of our taunts (i.e. We have just the one taunting blow, instead of 4 on their own timers like before) and increased the recast time on several CA's (e.g. Blast now does double the damage with twice the recast timer) so the former non-stop click-fest has been tamed down a bit. I'm of two minds about that. Sure, it's easier... but it's *easier*. I think it removes at least some of the skill of playing the class, if only in the twichiest sense. </span><span>Buffing is practically effortless now. We have just one spell that needs refreshing, instead of four 10 minute buffs sharing the same one minute timer. If they'd get rid of the stupid recast time after dying we'd be buffed and ready to go within seconds of being rezzed. </span><span>They did finally fix our damage-interception line of spells though. Some of them are *really* nice. Guardians may actually want to group with each other now. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I don't know if the game is better, but it certainly is different. I'm willing to give it a chance.</span><div></div>

Wilde3

09-14-2005, 08:46 AM

<DIV>I've only played about a half hour total but I'm not liking the CA nerfs so far. Tremor was one of my favorite arts and it was badly nerfed. Retaliate's dmg was cut in half and so on... But here's the thing: it really isn't the end of the world. The reason I became a guardian was because I like to tank. I've concentrated on stamina, agility, (and now wisdom) so that I won't die quickly and my group or raid can survive. Our dps has been greatly reduced but as long as I don't have to do Harclave, I'll be just fine :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Foehammer</DIV> <DIV>50 Guardian / 50 Alchemist</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wilde375 on <span class=date_text>09-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:49 PM</span>

Reebwen

09-14-2005, 08:58 AM

I can tell you that from test server as a guardian I am not very happy. WIth groups I do an ok job but as far as raiding now I don't really do too well . It seems that unless your fully fabled (much like the guilds used for beta raid testing) you are really gonna have a hard time defeating raid encounters of any level. I think what is going on is that soe has worked too close with the leading raiders and did not stop to really think about the less then established guys. I mean common sence is that how is a person like me (guardian or any tank for that matter) suppose to get gear if raids can't do the mobs? I am hopeing some major changes are yet to come in the way mobs work because as of right now it just does not work. <div></div>

Riply_Anklebiter

09-14-2005, 09:06 AM

<P>Our DPS is down a ton, as if we had much to spare to start with.</P> <P>We now have insane agro issue. Even landing 3 taunts and atleast 1 agro buff on pull I still lost agro to a single nuke/heal.</P> <P>PvP as a Guardian......Its laughable at best. I can tank wizards and rangers very well, thats basicaly because wizards/rangers need to get away from me to fight. I got owned by a Pally/Zerker/Monk(realy badly by monk) repeatedly, and I have better gear then them all.</P> <P>I lost a ton of HPS in this nerf along with alot of other useful crap. In exchange they gave us another two hold the fekking line type buffs that root you and do blah blah. I always hated the first hold the line and deffenantly dident want more of the same. I honestly could see having to lvl to 60 before being able to tank as well as I did at lvl 50. Put it this way I had to run from a fricken lvl 40 mob in RV upon log in today, this is a mob that I was soloing at lvl 40-43, but now at 50 I have to run? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? I have a few fabled pieces of armor but not full by any means, but everything else is ebon or nicer, and yet im getting smacked around like a 2 dolla ho.</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Riply_Anklebiter on <span class=date_text>09-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:09 PM</span>

Bock

09-14-2005, 12:50 PM

<DIV>Honestly the changes arnt that bad, with everything added up its about the same thing, only bad thing is something someone else may think is the coolest thing ever, but without naming anything keeping agro at 50+ is a bore, far to easy, auto-attack and one spell(with buffs and such) kept agro from a 50 assasin(doing as much as he could) all night on blue-greens, but im sure a nerf of this spell is in the works already and the outcome will most likly make it completly useless. and dps realy isnt that bad considering i play a guardian and never once wanted to be able to do dps.</DIV>

laddich

09-14-2005, 02:00 PM

<P>I'm a 49 Guardian. When I logged back in today I wanted to start by doing my "daily" writ in Everfrost "Road Home". Going to the place where they reside, I noticed that the path north now contained many ^^ where there used to be singles. And yes, I got attacked by a group of lvl 41 Wolves. 1 down wolves. THEY KICKED MY [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Of course, my buffs weren't up and I was kinda expecting them not to hit me. BUT THEY DID. and HARD. Had to run for my life. This was a 41 one down, with 2 lvl 41 two downs. They nerfed the con-system. The Artic Monitors I could solo (were 43^^) are now ^^^ and kick my butt faster than you can say "Where the [Removed for Content] is my </P> <P>No DPS. They almost halved my HP buffed (3500 instead of 5000). The stances are a laugh, I cannot afford to drop defensive stand while soloing. In fact, it's bye bye solo ...</P> <P>Retaliate at Adept I used to do 450-600 dmg @ 49, now I get 350 max. Righty-O. This Guard will take a long tiome to get to 60 since it won't be played. And I havent even tried PVP as I'm sure we'll get our [Removed for Content] kicked by wizards 4 or 5 levels under us.</P> <p>Message Edited by laddich on <span class=date_text>09-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 PM</span>

Zodi

09-14-2005, 02:40 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>O_o</P> <P>This thread is for guardians only!?</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I would like to keep it that way. I appreciate you coorperation on this matter.</DIV>

Zodi

09-14-2005, 02:47 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lyrus-D wrote:<BR>Honestly, when a topic is titled guardians only, it's only going to entice others to take a look. Besides, it is an open forum, no sense in trying to discriminate. I peruse the other classes forums to get an idea what other classes are capable, and don't see them making topics for furies only. If your grudge is against one person, ignore that person. It's as simple as that.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I think the original poster just wanted to keep this thread from degenerating into yet another interclass flame-fest. I don't think it's unreasonable to ask others to check their baggage at the door and keep it civil, but who am I kidding? ;p</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You are exactly correct. I think as PRIME GUARDIAN I would like to get feedback from what I call my "Brothers in Arms". I would like this thread to be one where we just share our opinion of the changes without turning to be a fight againts others classes. If other classes got better and now they kick butt, I am really happy for them. I just want to know the opinion of more experienced "GUARDIANS" in clean fashion.</FONT><BR><BR><BR>Personally, I haven't had enough of a chance to play with the changes. I've been in beta, but they really changed things a massive ammount in just the last few days, so it feels new even to beta players. With the zoning problems, server downtime, etc. I still haven't had much of a chance to play, so I'm reserving judgement on some aspects of the changes. I'll speak up on others though. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> They took away a lot of our taunts (i.e. We have just the one taunting blow, instead of 4 on their own timers like before) and increased the recast time on several CA's (e.g. Blast now does double the damage with twice the recast timer) so the former non-stop click-fest has been tamed down a bit. I'm of two minds about that. Sure, it's easier... but it's *easier*. I think it removes at least some of the skill of playing the class, if only in the twichiest sense. </SPAN><SPAN>Buffing is practically effortless now. We have just one spell that needs refreshing, instead of four 10 minute buffs sharing the same one minute timer. If they'd get rid of the stupid recast time after dying we'd be buffed and ready to go within seconds of being rezzed. </SPAN><SPAN>They did finally fix our damage-interception line of spells though. Some of them are *really* nice. Guardians may actually want to group with each other now. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> I don't know if the game is better, but it certainly is different. I'm willing to give it a chance.<BR></P></SPAN> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Thanks for the information, jugding by your opinion it seems we got more balanced and at the ssame time got some minor improvements. I unerstand that there are servers problems and no one really had enough time to test eh changes.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00>Thanks for the input</FONT> <P><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

Tro

09-14-2005, 03:14 PM

<DIV>Was only able to test for a couple hours last night. I tried some stuff solo. Me and my Wife (48 Templar) are going to Lava to do some more testing tontie but from what I can see, We got the shaft.. plain and simple. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/rant on</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This "Mistake" was a major change in the game mechanics and like I said before, when I started playing in April, I had no clue they were changing the game this much. Come Friday when we are done testing the content we "use" to enjoy, I believe I will be cancelling our accounts but we are gonna give it a fair shake. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Really f'ing [Removed for Content] about all this.. I loved this game but the guardian I have now is NOT what I signed up for back in April. You bust your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and spend all that time leveling, getting fabled weps, nice armor and looking forward to 50+ and BAM!!! we get shafted. I never bought the expansion. Thank f'ing god. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really hope by Friday I have a different outlook on this but after what I saw last night with the mobs/CA's/nerfed weps etc.. it is REALLY hard to be positive.. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hope all you Whiners are happy you got your f'ing changes and I am gonna laugh so f'ing hard when another class complains about "xx class can do xx better than my class" and the next big revamp takes place..They have already proved that this is how they run the game so it WILL happen again..This last mistake just proves that..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I cannot continue to give money to any company that runs a business like these bunch of clowns. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I can say is: Bring on the server mergers! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/rant off</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ok i feel a little better now.. </DIV>

smckean

09-14-2005, 03:21 PM

<DIV>1) Did our damage really got better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Yes, i beleive it has. My damage output is up comared to prior.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Can we really compete againts with other classes in the arena?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Dont know, and frankly.. dont care. PVP is the last thing i think of in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Is the +5 defense trait useless by level 50 due to the cap?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Most likely, yes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Did we get balance or we just basically got nerfed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> No nerfing here as i see it. Just changing the way the class is played.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any suggestion are also really appreciated. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you</DIV>

Arathon

09-14-2005, 03:52 PM

<P> I'm not to happy with the changes so far. Ive got a 45th Guardian and I wanted to check out the solo aspect of playing him. I went into the easiest version of Harclave last night to test things out. I normally solo the hardest version of Harclaves without to much trouble. I've got full ebon armor and rare jewelery, weapons, dolls, etc so I would consider myself well equiped. The solo fights leading up to getting the buff were definately harder, I came close to dieing once against a healer type (pariah), where I ended the fight with 25 percent health and 10 percent power. After I got the harclave buff, I tried the first group when you drop off the wall. That was a close fight, ended at about 10 percent health. The healing part of the harclave buff was dropped to 121 hp from the 600 range. This is way to low imo. The second group I pulled was white and essentially did me in, I dont think any of the mobs missed at all. As it is now, I'm sure that I can succeed on the easy version of harclaves with a couple changes in tactics (not a given yet, there are harder mobs in their then the first few groups. However, there is no way that I would be able to even attempt the other versions of the instance. This removes one of the nicer solo spots for a guardian. </P> <P>Arathon</P> <P> </P>

Reebwen

09-14-2005, 04:12 PM

Alot of you are just comfirming what I thought all the time and what I had figured what would happen and the problem is this. Once again the casual and the new guy on the raid scene just got borked over by these changes. Only people that are rarely gonna complain and you mark my words are the one's that are in the top end guilds. As for being nerfed YES we were nerfed. Now I did'nt mind a little balanceing from the combat changes but when people are haveing problems duoing mobs 5+ levels below them with a healer class yes there is a serious problem. All of this could of been avoided if soe would of used there testers on test server who have had the combat changes far longer then most or even stoped to get feedback from the casual folks who were on beta who do comprise the majority population of this game. <div></div>

Briz

09-14-2005, 04:29 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arathon wrote:<BR> <P> I'm not to happy with the changes so far. Ive got a 45th Guardian and I wanted to check out the solo aspect of playing him. I went into the easiest version of Harclave last night to test things out. I normally solo the hardest version of Harclaves without to much trouble. I've got full ebon armor and rare jewelery, weapons, dolls, etc so I would consider myself well equiped. The solo fights leading up to getting the buff were definately harder, I came close to dieing once against a healer type (pariah), where I ended the fight with 25 percent health and 10 percent power. After I got the harclave buff, I tried the first group when you drop off the wall. That was a close fight, ended at about 10 percent health. The healing part of the harclave buff was dropped to 121 hp from the 600 range. This is way to low imo. The second group I pulled was white and essentially did me in, I dont think any of the mobs missed at all. As it is now, I'm sure that I can succeed on the easy version of harclaves with a couple changes in tactics (not a given yet, there are harder mobs in their then the first few groups. However, there is no way that I would be able to even attempt the other versions of the instance. This removes one of the nicer solo spots for a guardian. </P> <P>Arathon</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know...it's supposed to be hard because it's <EM>difficult</EM>, not because it gives an xp bonus for no real work...right? If I'm playing hard mode, I would expect to die, especially if I playing with a new system I wasn't used to.</P> <P>My take? I love it. Do I have to do more work as a tank? Yup. Taunting is a full time job now, but with fewer taunts, that means both me and my group have to fight smarter. That's not a bad thing - that makes it interesting. It's not a clickfest anymore. Now you have to think about stances, or when to toss in that 30 second buff, or if you want to trade mobility for extra taunt. (As an aside, the Hold the Line upgrade <STRONG>rules</STRONG>. When I respec next week, that's the one upgrade I'm keeping for sure.) I play the game to have fun, and I find soloing AND grouping more fun. You don't kill quite as quickly as you used to solo, since you go through more HP/mana, but in a solid group you can do some amazing things, even with ^^^ heroics, as long as everyone pays attention. Heck, I even like dueling, and I utterly hated it in EQ. Of course, I haven't lost yet...</P> <P>In case you think I'm super uber, I'm not really. My only fabled piece is Drayek's Axe of Frost, which I only got after about 20+ visits to Miragul's. Ebon BP, pants, and shoulders, and the rest is fulginate and quested stuff. My only adept 3 above lvl 40 is Deafen. I only just started To Speak as a Dragon last week. I'm not l33t by any means. </P> <P>But I AM having a great time with the changes so far.</P>

Dbil

09-14-2005, 04:44 PM

<DIV>Frankly, I havn't played in over a month at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So I guess I will just be learning a new game when I come back. I logged on last night and set up the old trader for the first time in over a month and I will be reading up on the respec stuff today.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I guess taking the last month and a half, or more, off paid dividends for me because it will all be new to me anyway.</DIV>

Mastoras

09-14-2005, 04:58 PM

<P>Heres my problem.............taunts.</P> <P>Seriously, we dont have enough...........and they take too long to recharge. Right now a Berserker can take argo at will with me taunting. I counted.......only 4 total taunts now that dont share each other i can use....just 4. And the recharge is 8sec, 10sec, 20sec and 30sec...frankly thats to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] long. Throw in that hold the line and commanding presence doesnt do much. Plus of course not all taunts land now. And this is using all Adept 3s.</P> <P>I was freaking amazed how poorly i was able to keep argo after yesturday, and the berskerker asked me what upgrade my taunts were, and he said, thats odd, im barely doing anything to get argo.</P> <P>Other then that, everything else SO FAR looks ok, yeah we got less buffs, but at least u can be buffed in less then 10sec now, instead of like 4min. Damage, well i never cared about damage, so not to bad. If they can fix the taunts to maybe more hate........alot more. Or reduce recharge alot more, or add a few more taunts, it would rock.</P>

Korwyn

09-14-2005, 05:07 PM

<P>All I can say is that before the nerfs I was able (it took me a long time and I had to be careful) to complete Harclaves. Now I can't ....I am very disapointed at this time in the changes and hope that SOE will be taking a hard look at what they did and undo at least some of it. I have mid level equipment and decent weapons...</P> <P>I am OK in a group but I found that the Ranger, Monk, Wiz and Druid tended to get agro much easier from me and it was harder for me to get it back.</P> <P>Lots of the time I was just using my bow as the Druid and Wiz root and nuke and Ranger shoot stuff to death....wow this is a fun game! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Cormac</P> <P>47 (and most likely to stay that way with the changes) Guardian</P>

Raahl

09-14-2005, 05:19 PM

<P>I tried to get to an area where I could test solo, but kept locking up when I zoned (Najena). Looking at some of the posts, I'm very worried that I was right a few months back to be concerned about the combat changes.</P> <P>I'm still hoping that it works out.</P>

Vorling611

09-14-2005, 05:29 PM

<DIV> <DIV>1) Did our damage really got better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My damage sure seems to be a lot better. I think this is due to the speed that the combat skills now recharge at.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Can we really compete againts with other classes in the arena?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not interested in PvP</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Is the +5 defense trait useless by level 50 due to the cap?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Probably worthless, but I took it anyways cause most of the other trait choices I had left were crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Did we get balance or we just basically got nerfed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think they gave us a lot of cool stuff. But nerfed our primary role of tanking. IMO if my Guardian is no longer the best tank in the game, there really isn't any more use for him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With those questions answered, here is a few things I did in game last night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally beat the Pit Champion in the Solo Arena in a straight up fight. Where as before I could only get him down to 53% this time I killed him with having over 40% health. I think this is more to the changes they did to him then what they did to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tried Harclaves (On easy, or regular) 2 times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First time I hadn't respeced yet and let 2 mobs get onto me at the same time and they hit HARD and OFTEN. So I ran, and unlike before they don't break aggro and leave you alone, so I zoned out. Thinking [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] things are different.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well I waited out my timer while I ate dinner, visited with the family and listened to the storyteller. I also respeced choosing skills I had no idea how they worked other then there discriptions and similarities to old skills. So I go into Harclaves a second time. This time I work my way through to getting the Harclave Buff (Which I love.) Well this is when things started to go bad. The first group that spawns right away hurt me bad. I managed to kill them but was into the orange. That is a HUGE change. That only used to happen with about 3 groups before. I get healed up by the chest, which is doing really low heals now. Then I pull up onto the ledge another yellow group. Same thing they get me down to orange. At this point I jump down to kill a group of 4 whites and one of the corner yellow one ups jump in also. Yep this does it for me, they kill me quick as hell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only thing my Harclaves showed me is just how much more damage I take now. And how often EVERYTHING hits me. Oh and that you can't run away from the mobs anymore in Harclaves. (Well at least I can't)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is just some of my experiences that I thought I'd share. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

beacoupfi

09-14-2005, 05:36 PM

I'm a 50 guardian, and yesterday i was grouped with a 50 Inquisitor, 50 Corcer, and a 50 Warden. I pull with a taunt, followed up with a HO taunt (ending in Deafen Adapt 1) then taunts as they appear for recast. I lost aggro after 1 nuke by the Corcer... 1. Aggro control is not cool atm... without reactive hate epic mobs are going to be almost untankable for guardians... might as well have a zerker do it, they steal aggro off guardians in a few seconds now anyway. <div></div>

Macross_JR

09-14-2005, 05:46 PM

To the guardians having problems with holding aggro, tell me you did take the Master II version of Maddening Defense. If not you made a very poor choice in which Master II you took. Also, I was in a full group just today, never had one problem holding aggro, then again I took the Master II of Maddening Defense. <div></div>

Vulking

09-14-2005, 06:05 PM

<P>I was debating coming on here and bittchin. I now see no alternative. Quite frankly and literally Gaurds have been <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>pwned!</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>our attacks are weak, our taunts can be resisted and our mitigation has no chance against the damage output from mobs. Duels! heh what can i say, i have dueled against a wizzy, a bruiser and a zerker. In each and every time a total of 4 fights with each, I was dead and they had their health still in the green or just into the yellow. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]!</P> <P>And don't tell me i dont know how to play my character, im ranked number 3 in NPC kills on our server, (after the bots of course), and these are legit kills, not bambis in oakmyst or the graveyard.</P> <P>And don't tell me I don't know my combat arts very well yet with the changes, I have been studying them since they were posted, and played on test. </P> <P><STRONG>I have never, never gone from 100% armor to 0% exping. Raiding yes, exping NEVER.</STRONG></P> <P>I really don't know what to do. I'm shell shocked atm. <STRONG><FONT color=#66cc00>Please someone say some encouraging words, pleaze!! Tell me its going to be ok, lie if you have to.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P> </P>

Raahl

09-14-2005, 06:09 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hammarus wrote:<BR> <P>I really don't know what to do. I'm shell shocked atm. <STRONG><FONT color=#66cc00>Please someone say some encouraging words, pleaze!! Tell me its going to be ok, lie if you have to.</FONT></STRONG><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Guess it can only get better from here. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Oh and stop it your scaring me. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

Seth

09-14-2005, 06:18 PM

<DIV>Ok; major nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was in the entrance or Permafrost from my last day of Freedom (12th) and camped, after a trio of me a templar and a conjuror could kill 3 heroic mobs added and survive.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I log on the 13th and find myself with 2k HP less, 500 mitigation less, 20% avoidance less, less damage, worse taunts, worse parry.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I <FONT color=#ff0000>tried</FONT> to go to the Everfrost docks...died 4 times. 4 times...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't run away from mobs. See, even though you resist the damage from a stun attack, guess you dont resist the stun. Therefore, even though you dont get damaged, you can't run away. Since your avoidance is shot in both legs, you get hit all the time, therefore get stunned all the time, there fore die a lot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I can't outrun mobs with sprint now either, even if I run past them from far, they catch up [Removed for Content] me and eat my balls. It's humiliating. It cost me 10gold in repair in the first 45 minutes of playing to run accross a zone...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, we got a major nerf stick. Avoidance is now way better than mitigation.</DIV>

Airog

09-14-2005, 06:23 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> smckean wrote:<BR> <DIV>1) Did our damage really got better?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Yes, i beleive it has. My damage output is up comared to prior.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) Can we really compete againts with other classes in the arena?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Dont know, and frankly.. dont care. PVP is the last thing i think of in EQ2.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3) Is the +5 defense trait useless by level 50 due to the cap?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Most likely, yes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>4) Did we get balance or we just basically got nerfed?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> No nerfing here as i see it. Just changing the way the class is played.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Any suggestion are also really appreciated. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thank you</DIV> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No nerfing? Have you even taken a look at your stats? HP/MIT/avoid

Pry

09-14-2005, 06:24 PM

<P><FONT face=Verdana>50 Guardian here. I was fortunate (or unfortunate) enough to play in the Beta, and saw the way that combat had changed and didn't like it at all. And despite massive complaining about it, they made up their minds that this combat system was "better". Makes you wonder if they even play these characters at all. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>I don't understand the concept of changing things so that they are shells of what they previously were. I never understood the *need* for combat changes whatsoever. It makes me sick that I wasted all that time leveling up a now completely useless character.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>Anyway, so the combat changes and the game play mechanics (kill 7000 mobs for 1% xp philosophy) made me put some serious contemplation on what I wanted to do. When I realized that there was really nothing fun about Desert of Flames, I caved into long standing pressure from my friends to give another game a try that begins and ends in the letter W. And despite the graphic toon deficiencies, that place is a lot more fun. </FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana>So you can just add me to the throngs of people who have already left I suppose, and I would offer you my stuff but I don't think you want that now pile of junk! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P>

Shizzirri

09-14-2005, 06:24 PM

<DIV>In my groups last night I still avoided most of my attacks and totally mitigated some as well, and this was on orange +++ mobs...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even killed an epic x2 mob in god knows where, other than the initial taunt being resisted on incoming the fight went fine, I held aggro, etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for dps, we're guardians...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I love what they did to rescue.</DIV>

Aandien

09-14-2005, 06:25 PM

<P>I think overall the changes worked out well in a group situation.</P> <P>I was in beta so I had some time to work with the changes and figure things out.</P> <P>My primary advice to those that are having difficulty maintaining aggro -- just work with it some and re-think the order at which you use skills.</P> <P>Maddening defense is great -- especially when you get multiple encounters. It shouldn't be necessary though on single group encounters.</P> <P>It is of course, possible now for other classes to steal aggro from encounter mobs if they aren't careful -- so give those folks some time also to adjust. Some other classes get some very very powerful ae abilities now that can take aggro in a heartbeat if they use it before you have time to do at least both of your ae taunts. </P> <P>Aggro control is a group effort as it should be. So if your losing aggro, look to see what you can improve in your game, and also, look to your groupmates to see if they can make some adjustments.</P> <P>I was maintaining aggro on single encounters without using maddening defense while our DPS was exceeding 450dps on those same encounters. So it is doable. It requires effort on more than one person though to do it.</P>

SGho

09-14-2005, 06:30 PM

<P>Level 50 Guardian, casual player, mainly soloer, no fabled gear here.</P> <P>From my point of view (which can differ depending upon how you play) it was a major nerf. Mobs that were gray to me before the patch are now green and eat me alive (wolf packs in EF are a prime example).</P> <P>I'm not giving up yet, but I'm leaning that way. Here's the things I have issues with so far:</P> <P>- The slam line are now on the same timer which they didnt' used to be before. Re-use timer is now 60 seconds.</P> <P>- Retaliate has been cut down in damage and is still on a 60 second timer. (on a personal note, I bought this at Adept III level and it's now a waste of money)</P> <P>- Debuffs have been removed from the all attacks and taunts - we can no longer stifle at all (unless I missed something with the new abilities) and the slow component was removed. (examples - Cleave and Swamp are now damage only, Deafen interupts but no longer slows)</P> <P>- The Do or Die line no longer stacks as it used to and Barksan's was removed.</P> <P>- Because I solo, I don't have any fabled. Therefore my mitigation is lower than average and was lower than the 50 Paladin I grouped with last night.</P> <P>- Gaining aggro was almost impossible without rooting myself and using the new Hold the Line upgrade (which I took at Master II). Taunts otherwise seem to be a waste of time since I can't do enough damage to compensate and without rooting myself, I couldn't pull aggro for the life of me if I did nothing but spam taunts. I think this is because heal=aggro, damage=aggro, taunts that are resisted don't give aggro :/</P> <P>(note - I had Shouting Cry at Master I since it was the only taunt that could be used on epic mobs, so I think in re-spec there was a taunt upgrade I didn't take and probably should have - will check into that when I respec again)</P> <P>Overall, self-buffed I'm down about 1500 hp and my ability to solo has been greatly reduced due to a combination of the increased range of aggro mobs (ones that were gray are now green) and the loss of debuffs/mitigation.</P> <P>Again, I'm not giving up yet, but if my solo game is dead, then I'm probably going to cancel. Mainly, I think, I'm disappointed in the increased mob level aggro range. I worked hard to get to the point where I didn't have to worry about level 42 wolves and such, but now just /getting/ to where I can solo is a nightmare <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

Iwand

09-14-2005, 06:38 PM

<P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">I am a 39th lvl guardian who plays with a group of friends for fun. This game is not a competitive sport for us.<SPAN> </SPAN>We don’t spend 40 hours a week looking for the best way to improve our DPS by 1 point. We just want to have a good time and escape into a fantasy world once a week. We are by definition casual players and the bottom line is this nerf has put most of us off. </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><EM><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">(Before the <SPAN> </SPAN>EQ is lifers out there say good riddance remember that without the money from the casual gamers EQ2 could only afford to be another Shadowsbane. It takes a lot of money to support a team capable of producing a game like this. More money then the 200 or so hard core players per server could generate) </FONT></FONT></EM></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>Now to the rant:</SPAN></P> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">I don’t know how things worked in raid level encounters and frankly don’t care.<SPAN> </SPAN>If there was a problem <U>there</U> the fix should have been <U>there</U>.</FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></FONT></SPAN></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman"> Soloing was already weak for guardians because of how long it took to do damage to mobs, now it’s almost impossible or at the very least impractical.<SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Grouping may or may not still work, I will have to wait and see, but it will be greatly changed and from what I saw yesterday I don’t think it will be fun any more.<SPAN> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN><SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face="Times New Roman">Unless you play this game with the scripted optimal team set up (1 tank, 1 healer, blah blah blah) Guardians just became very boring to play.<SPAN> </SPAN>If a guardian can not take agro better than its team mates and it can not soak up damage better than its team mates and it does almost no damage compared to its team mates<SPAN> </SPAN>Then there is no fun in playing the character (I do want to contribute something. It is not fun spending 4 hours watching other people do something.<SPAN> </SPAN>If that was what I wanted I would go watch TV )</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN> If things are as bad as they look and stay this way for long (fortunately none of the other <B>“</B>fixes” did) Sony just lost another 12 accounts.<SPAN> (My group plus family mambers)</SPAN>We've switched games before and all know we will have to again some day. If its sooner than later.... Some other game will let us have fun. </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN>Valdemar of Blackburrow</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN></SPAN> </P>

Gaige

09-14-2005, 06:39 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR><BR>No nerfing? Have you even taken a look at your stats? HP/MIT/avoid <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Everyone's are down. Every single player, despite class and all NPCs. So its not so much a nerf, as a restructuring. /shrug<BR>

CattaeORoss

09-14-2005, 06:48 PM

<P>OK, I am seeing 45+ posts but nothing lower. So, here goes. I logged in for all of like ten minutes last night, but I will tell what happened. I am a 33 guardian, with average gear. I am in the class of 'Casual Player' I suppose, since I tend to solo most often. My gear is mostly Feyiron, nothing fancy cause I can not afford it. I got my [Removed for Content] handed to me by a level 24 gnoll in Thundering Steppes. Was not even a close fight, as it landed every hit, and HARD. I can see that most every post has been about grouped, with only a few about solo play. For those of us that do not like to sit around for several hours looking for a group, solo play is nice. Granted we level slower and get crap for loot, but at least we could have some relaxing fun. This CHANGE has in effect made my character unplayable now. How can a solo green mob hit me like a ^^ orange mob? My DPS was low enough before, but now it is cut AND I was missing about 40%of the time. And no, I do not think I should be able to take out groups of orange cons with ease. A single orange mob I should be able to have a good close fight with though, with it going either way. If it kills me, so be it. If I win, I should not see my health in the green or yellow but rather orange or red. I never said I want it easy, just that things should be doable.</P> <P> </P> <P>IMHO, we got the NERF BAT used on us.</P>

Yahk

09-14-2005, 06:48 PM

<DIV> <P>Our DPS is way up IMO. Yes our big nuke is smaller, but have you used BLAST yet? That baby is hitting for 600-700 at Adept I. Gonna be upgrading that one. tremor is no longer a dot, but hits the whole area for 350+. Throw in the offensive stance and I was owning 52^ solo mobs with ease and HP in the green. Recast timers are smaller, and the power used is cut in half. I can spam abilities as fast as I want and won't run out of power.</P> <P>Holding Agro. Well, this is more of a challenge...mainly because they took our best hate producers (Group buffs) and made them toggles. Gone are the days of me casting group buffs as their timer expired to hold aggro. Now I get a one shot deal at the beginning, and then it's just Commanding presence. Gonna have to get used to rooting myself again. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Not bad, just different. You may or may not have noticed, but whoever pulls seems to get a hate bonus. Occaisonally we'd have the pet pull and it was dang near impossible to pull agro off of him. Weird.</P> <P>My stats are way different now, but I'm not sure what affect that will have on me yet. My HP is way down even though my Stamina is up. Yet I seem to be able to handle more hits now...Mitigation is better. Get a Mystic in your group now too. Their wards take mitigation into account now, and I stood there getting pounded on for 2 minutes and never took a hit...nice.</P> <P>Overall, I'm indifferent on the changes. I find most solo encounters easier now, but I have to work to keep agro a little bit more now in groups. Not better or worse...just different. Haven't grouped with a zerker yet, so I'm not sure of the issues there...will have to try it.</P></DIV>

Yahk

09-14-2005, 07:00 PM

<P>We did NOT get nerfed...We got changed. You stat fiends are looking at your numbers and going OMG!. But you fail to take into account that the mobs also got those changes. I think you guys just got spoiled with being able to kill orange heroics solo pre patch. Keep in mind that con actually matters now. If that nice puppy over their is yellow and heroic....he will own your solo {Ninja}.</P> <P>Change is good, Variety is the spice of life. Re-learn your character and have fun. I am. Did I die a few times? Yes, and it was fun learning how to avoid that in the future.</P> <P>OB Tip: In a group - Pull the mob with no group buffs on you. Deafen, Protect, Taunting challenge, then cast all of your group buffs...Commanding presence third, the two fast cast ones first. Then Deafen, and the 2 taunting attack ones. Then if necessary cast your HTL and beat on him. Protect again when it comes up. You will NOT lose agro.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Zylokr

09-14-2005, 07:07 PM

I would not worry as much as you guys are, do you really think soe is gonna let you rot, they will patch and fix and refix blah blah till its something reasonable, as for mobs hitting to hard i believe they never fixed some of those errors in beta and test, specially for zones outside of dof. <div></div>

Vorling611

09-14-2005, 07:16 PM

<DIV>It just feels good to vent a little. Every other Online game I've played has gone through the whole balance/re-balance thing. Where one class is to strong so everyone cry's NERF till that one is nerfed and another class gets strong and same thing happens.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If it comes down to it and they don't fix it then my guardian will make a good mule and hold lots of stuff for me until he is unnerfed and can play again. I do have a lot of other character slots I can play I guess. It's just a shame if it comes to that. I've put a lot of time and effort into leveling this guy up and equiping him. And I really love playing a MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Time will tell.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Tobann

09-14-2005, 08:26 PM

Well I thought Id throw in my 2 cents worth. Granted this is based on only 2 hours of play with the new system. I respecd my abilities for fortitude and agility and defence. Got rid of the spells that no longer stack ( went from having 4 full hotbars up to partially filled 3 hotbars), and tried to solo in Splitpaw.The hideout and harclaves went from being a fun way to spend an hour or 2, to a fun way to die in about 10 minutes. The single MOB's went down fine and I could see some improvement in dps with the offensive stance. Multiple mobs, blue with double down arrows, owned my good. Had 4 deaths in the first hour....kinds expensive repair costs.One good thing is I could finally kill the pit champion where I couldnt before, the group of 3 slaves that comes before the Champ were much harder than the Champ himself. To me it seems the solo route will be less fun and less doable than it was. I havent tried grouping yet,that is for tonight. If it is as tough as the solo I will probably try another charecter. I think it is possible that you will see a lot fewer guardians across all servers soon. the sad part is that no one may miss us at all. Tobann 47 Guardian <div></div>

WarShe

09-14-2005, 09:18 PM

<DIV>2) I can tell you from personal experiance in Team PvP my guardian was able to kill 2 casters, with out his weapon equiped lol.</DIV>

Wasuna

09-14-2005, 11:22 PM

<P>I wasn't able to play much since I'm on AB but what I found out is:</P> <P>If you run around without your defensive stance your gonna get [Removed for Content].</P> <P>I was able to kill level 47 ^ gators which feels about right for what I should be able to do.</P> <P>I am going to feedback and petition the stiffel I get on me every single fight. The fights with the group of level 45ish 2-3 triple down arrows can kill me dead. They have such a high chance to hit me and all of them can sitffle me. I end up stiffled 90% of the fight and only using melee swings to kill them.</P> <P>I usually go around in small groups and was able to kill some yellow ^ 51-52 singles with just my wife a 50 assassin so things seemed OK. If we had a healer we could have done a yellow ^^ pretty easily.</P>

Arsen

09-14-2005, 11:30 PM

1. Tough to say since everyones damage and hitpoints changed a lot. It will take a while to see the comparisons. 2. I pwned a 50 Necro in about 10 seconds. I also beat a 50 Zerker without too much trouble (I was in defensive stance with SBS and SM), he had a Great Royal Flail and was likely in his offensive stance. I also fought a 50 Inquisitor to a draw - we fought a long time and both had screaming maces... She almost had me, but then once she ran out of power, I was able to regen health faster than she could hurt me and her mace was able to proc enough power to keep her healed as fast as I could hurt her... we finally called it a draw <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> 3. More defense is always better. Defense does not matter as much any more though and level + gear is more significant. 4. I feel we got balanced but it will really take some time to evaluate us against other classes. One thing for sure though - GEAR and CA Upgrades are now very meaningful. The players that diligently upgrade are going to have a much easier time of it. I believe this will come more into balance as LEGEDARY level gear becomes more available and easier to obtain. Characters in HANDCRAFTED and TREASURED gear will find the going much tougher until they can start getting more upgrades. <div></div>

Joos

09-15-2005, 12:50 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Scuzlebutt wrote:<BR> <P>In a group with just about any healer, I can't tell that much of a difference. Duoing or trioing with out a buffer/healer type, I am dead meat. The neat new login screen tells me I've played 26 days now on my guardian, and I loved every minute of it. Too bad thats over. I wont be wasting my time on another char just to have it become usless when the next big change happens.</P> <P> <STRONG>Buffs replacing mitigation is great if you plan on 2 boxing. Oh, Hey! Whatya know! You can power lvl your self a Templar now!</STRONG> </P> <P> </P> <P>We hates the SOE.......... We hates it!.... FOREVER!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Inquisitor here checking the temp of the other classes on the combat changes and couldn't help noticing this.</P> <P>BTW - Interesting that there is a ADD ACCOUNT button on the login screen, I am sure SoE is not going to encourage and support PL :smileysurprised:<BR></P>

a6eaq

09-15-2005, 12:51 AM

<P>I read the updates notes from Monday, and in them they stated that Fighter autoattack DPS was slightly higher than Scouts, but our CA DPS was lower than Scouts (Sorry forgot to get link, oops). I think our DPS is a little better autoattack than everyone thinks it is. </P> <P>If you didn't pick Maddening Defense as your MAster 2 at lvl 44 then you made a mistake as far aas holding aggro goes. When I had it up, I <U>never</U> lost agro once we were fully engaged with the mob. If the Fury in the group cast something on me prior to my taunt after a bow pull, the mob would target him, but 1 use of deafen (Adept 3) would bring him back in on me. Cast MD bam, never loose aggro. It was good enough that I caould actually use a lot of CAs and taunt less. I tried to loose aggro with MD up and it was possible, but I had to almost stop taunting. So far, I like the changes, but I have only got to play for a few hours, so who knows, might hate it by Sunday.</P> <P>And if anyone was wondering, I had a 50 Fury, 50 Paly, 50 Zerker, and a 45 Wiz in the group. I will say this much, if a caster gets a little too enthusiastic, you will loose aggro period. That is what the devs had in mind I think. So, if you think we can't taunt anymore and hold aggro, better check that healer/caster and make sure they are being patient. The game plays more like EQ in that reguard, they can't nuke nuke nuke and expect us to keep the mobs attention, after all, would you keep on the tank of a group if you started getting nuked or the tank kept getting healed? I think not. MHO</P>

Nibbl

09-15-2005, 01:18 AM

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Solo stats, using mostly legendary gear (ebon), and legendary weps, and legendary shield!</P> <P>Pre DoF against a blue con Splitpaw gnoll:<BR>70-80% health remaining, 15-25% power remaining w/o shield</P> <P>Post DoF against a blue con Splitpaw gnoll:<BR>20-30% health remaining, 50-60% power remaining w/o shield<BR>25-35% health remaining, 50-60% power remaining w/shield</P> <P>Seems we traded health for power. I didn’t see a large difference with my shield either, although this is probably more of a factor in groups.</P> <P>Mobs seem to drop faster, which gives the appearance of better DPS. But my guess is mobs have much less HP, will have to parse DPS out to compare, haven’t done that yet. Con system seems messed up also, notice this more with my alts that can solo harder mobs. I can kill mobs quicker, but my health drops faster as well, I get hit more often.</P> <P>First impression of the combat revamp…. Not Impressed! I feel like a "spongy guardian troll", a "big ugly nerf" that is! :smileysad:</P> <P>I have a 48 Warden as well, hate the changes for wardens. However, my 42 necro rocks after the revamp, SOE gave necromancers some love. I see my guardian and warden gathering some dust, my necro is going to be my primary toon now. </P> <P>Oh, and I have to play on my old P3 1ghz computer. My new computer, a P4 3ghz, doesn’t like the DoF patch, unplayable due to many many graphics problems and extreme lag. It use to play EQ2 very well, not any more.</P> <P>Groll, Level 48 Guardian, BB (hates revamp):robotmad:<BR>Sithero Level 48 Warden, BB (what the hell hit me, oh LU#13):smileymad:<BR>Nibblar Level 42 Necromancer, BB (Loves LU#13):smileyvery-happy:</P></FONT></DIV>

Sheridan-Guk

09-15-2005, 03:59 AM

<P>Here's some background before my feedback.</P> <P>I spent about 9 hours playing last night. I took the time to study my respec and pick the skills that would maximize my defense and HP. I went through my spellbook and hotbars and figured out what stacked and what was on common timers. I am a 50 guardian that shares the MT role in a casual raiding guild. I think I'm geared up above average. I am in full ebon, with a fabled shield, prismatic longsword, legendary activated slots, and legendary jewelry. I chose Master II Maddening Defense. I have 3 Adept 3 taunts (4 if you count the no longer useable Shouting Cry) and 1 Adept 1 taunt. My Defensive Stance is Adept 3. Last night I solo'd, grouped, and took down Broog (52 Epic X 2) twice.</P> <P>Let me start out by saying that pre-CU I could tank and solo multiple blue heroic encounters at once. Many times I would still be in the green afterwards. I couldn't do that in lesser gear, but I did get to that point in my character's progression. I think its fair to say that I needed a nerf. However, I really feel like this was overdone.</P> <DIV><U>Pro</U></DIV> <UL> <LI>Maddening Defense is an awesome upgrade, especially considering that we get hit a lot more now. Its great for raid mobs, power draining mobs, and multiple mobs. Because of the root effect, I just wish it weren't required for exp groups.</LI> <LI>Buffs stay up. I'm no longer trying to maintain 4 buffs that all have the same 1-min timer and expire every 10 minutes.</LI> <LI>Rescue actually works now. Really well. I wish the timer were more like 5 minutes, but its better than 30.</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Con</U></DIV> <UL> <LI>Aggro is now considerably less in comparison to my group members. Before, I could cycle through 6 taunts and really lock a mob down. A wizard could chain nukes and HOs and not get aggro. Now, it is difficult to maintain aggro in a fast-paced experience group. Maddening defense helps a lot, but it is a serious pita to use when you're pulling for the group or trying to crawl through a dungeon.</LI> <LI>I read that guardians would have more taunts than other fighters. We went from 6 useable down to 4. I think you missed the mark.</LI> <LI>Experience is ungodly slow.</LI> <LI>Mage pets are able to tank more effectively than me. Aggro, ae aggro, dps, and hp.</LI> <LI>If someone pulls aggro, it is more difficult to regain. Once the mob turns, you lose the Maddening Defense aggro. We have fewer taunts to work with and the ones we have are on long timers. Rescue helps, but it should be situational at best.</LI></UL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My opinion? Nerf.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Welcome to the return of the 1-shot mob. Broog has a CA called Boulder throw that does 4500 crush one round and 3500 the next. It also drains all of your power. Yes, we managed to kill him twice, despite that. Still, there's many guardians that will need a change of underwear after tanking him for the first time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You've heard of someone getting hit with the ugly stick? How about someone falling out of the ugly tree and hitting every branch on the way down? Guardians just fell out of the nerf tree, in my opinion.</DIV>

Mastoras

09-15-2005, 05:41 AM

Guk good points, i agree with what you posted. Guardians still need more work.......i highly doubt were done as far as tweaking.

Chog

09-15-2005, 06:09 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sheridan-Guk wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U>Con</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <UL> <LI>I read that guardians would have more taunts than other fighters. We went from 6 useable down to 4. I think you missed the mark.<BR> <HR> </LI></UL></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Berserkers only have 3 taunts: Single target / Group / Taunting Blow line (not including Hold the line or rescue). So Guardians still have more taunts then other fighters.</DIV>

Raahl

09-15-2005, 07:55 AM

<DIV>Hmm I had issues keeping aggro tonight. I used my AE taunt, single taunt, rescue and the taunting blow one. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really disliked using the HTL line of taunts cause I hate to be rooted. Should I start using these more, even though I hate them, or is there others that I am missing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What happened to all of our buffs? I use to be able to toss off 4 or so to help with aggro, now I'm lucky to have 2. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What am I missing?</DIV>

Chog

09-15-2005, 09:39 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I really disliked using the HTL line of taunts cause I hate to be rooted. Should I start using these more, even though I hate them, or is there others that I am missing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Although not a Guardian (Berserker), we have a similar HTL line of spells. I would suggest putting the HTL skill on your hotbar in an easy to reach location. I use this skill on a routine basis now, the casting time is non-existant and there is no refresh. For multiple mob encounters with AoE casters in your group HTL is almost required to maintain agro control.</DIV>

Arsen

09-15-2005, 11:03 AM

Yup, HTL is basically a requirement for most fights - if everything goes well and you have a chance to establish aggro, it works beautifully. Good luck getting aggro back if you loose though it unless you pop Rescue on them - our taunts just do not have much pull. The only non-taunt skill that seems to generate any significant hate is Crush and that is on a minute timer. <div></div>

Finedo

09-15-2005, 11:26 AM

<div></div>Just dinged lvl 51 only problem i had but no more was the agro issue tell i learnt how to adjust to a new skill of holding agro. I dont solo i group and having fun with new changes exploring different ways of tanking again. PvP i knew was going to suck for a Guard just like war in EQ but i never ever made a guard for PvP thats just stupid i made one too tank raids. So far in general the one beef i have is i constantly run out of power due to the fact it cost alot of power to mantain agro in a group set up. I am always out of power when everyone elese in group is fine. been asked many times do you need drink and i laugh. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Finedorf on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:31 AM</span>

Raahl

09-15-2005, 04:52 PM

<DIV>Thanks Chogar and Arsenal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does clicking on the HTL skill a second time cancel it or do I have to cancel it from the maintain/spell bar?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I will give this a shot tonight and see how things go.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Raahl on <span class=date_text>09-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:53 AM</span>

WarShe

09-15-2005, 05:07 PM

<DIV>Had the most fun in game last night and its partly due to the changes.</DIV> <DIV>I had the chance to dual a Paladin who was the same level as me, the fight lasted a few minutes and was close but in the end I won barely.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So knowing that I can run a pally out of mana and then finish him off and it still be a good fight I have to say these where all good changes,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I may have had a little longer to get used to the changes since I was in beta but even there I soloed a caimen on SS which was a blue con abd was able to beat it with No weapon attuned lol. <FONT size=2> <P><A href="http://mywebpage.netscape.com/WDarthMaul/Combat+01.jpg" target=_blank>http://mywebpage.netscape.com/WDarthMaul/Combat+01.jpg</A></P> <P><FONT size=3>Sounds like maybe a few people are trying to fight some thing they shouldnt be any more? the con system has changes also, No one can do stuff they Used to any more which to me thats common sence, it seems to be working fine our auto attack doesnt decide if we win or lose now its our skills and their quality.</FONT></P></FONT></DIV>

Pry

09-15-2005, 05:10 PM

<DIV>I just want to say that having to use HTL in XP groups to keep aggro is inane. Really, is there turpentine on the menu at the SOE Commisarry?</DIV>

RafaelSmith

09-15-2005, 06:38 PM

Ok my small group of friends and I finally ventured out to test the new combat system out. We each spent some time reading our spell book, redoing our hotbars and talking about what we got, etc We were: -Me: Level 50 Guardian...left side is Ebon except helm and boots, right side is average stuff, FBSS, etc. Aegis of Alacrity for Shield and Bloodfire for weapon. -Level 50 Fury -Level 46 Defiler -Level 48 Coercer I really didnt pay much attention to my persona window numbers...nor did I bother trying to compare them to pre-revamp because it would just be pointless. So we decided to start out with some Writs in EF...just to get aquainted with new stuff and all..That went super easy...if anything it went overall faster than if we has tried the same thing last week. All for blue 1 down mobs so essentially 4 of us killing solo mobs...no problem as expected. Broodmother happened to be up...used to be an easy yet long fight for us...This time after some initial problems with positioning we easily defeated her...again faster than we had ever before. Ok so far nothing really challenging....level 44^^^ being the highest thing. But for whats its worth everyone in the group seemed to be having more fun, being more involved than we usually are doing that level of stuff. The fury and coercer especially. So we venture to Perma...Work our way to the top and do a few of the level 50^^^ protectors...It was here that I actually started to notice a difference in the %amount of dmg I take...Both the Fury and the Defiler took turn solo healing me thru various lvl 50^^^ protectors...neither had any problem and the Defiler actually could do it =P note: 3 ^^^ level 50 mobs, +Defiler Wards, +Regen, +Fury Porcupine for the win =P Overall despite what I had feared I find myself very much pleased thus far with the combat changes as do my friends...There are still some issues and we may very well find we have problem when we go out and tackle bigger fish. note: I found aggro control/maintenence to be much better and more involved than it used to be. The best thing I as a Guardian have done is to totally forget what my numbers were prior to the revamp. No point in comparing apples to oranges. <div></div>

Raahl

09-15-2005, 07:19 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<BR><BR>Overall despite what I had feared I find myself very much pleased thus far with the combat changes as do my friends...There are still some issues and we may very well find we have problem when we go out and tackle bigger fish.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I'm very glad that you have found the new changes fun. I had seen your previous posts and was worried that we had lost you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I to am finding it a real challenge to keep aggro and keep my party alive. Very fun time so far. </DIV>

ootpek

09-16-2005, 08:06 PM

42 Guardian here and when I first logged on I was amazed at just HOW much had changed. IT seemed every ability had some change and then throw in a bunch of new ones to boot. My hotbar looked completely different and I got depressed at the sheer magnitude of the change. Last night finally spend a bit of time soloing and grouping. I have to say that in the end, the guardian plays the same. Sure we use a little more power and have a little less HP, but it FEELS the same to me. I'm still tanking, I'm taunting like mad, I like the fast cast abilities, thats cool, and both solo and in group I am doing things I feel I should be able too. Another guardian in the guild has basically agreed with this comment. Except he qualifies it as "you have to make sure that you take into account the changes in the con system and mobs as well." <div></div>

Vulking

09-16-2005, 08:41 PM

<P>NO point in keeping this post in here. </P> <P>And by the way, what ever happened to the extensive testing and rebalancing they were doing to <EM>"make the game more enjoyable, blah, blah blah....", </EM>It seems to me, that it never happened.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Things that annoy me even more now a week into the revamp:</FONT></P> <P>1) before we were getting asked "are you drinking?" <STRONG>its much more accute now!</STRONG></P> <P>2) autoattack damage from raid mobs, holy sh*t!, specials are one thing but taking 2K hits constantly?</P> <P>3) broke, borked, busted, or just plain forgotten(thru either neglect or incompetence) mobs in the old content that just pwn you when you are 10-20 levels higher than said mobs, raid encounters whatever.</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Hammarus on <SPAN class=date_text>09-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:18 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Hammarus on <span class=date_text>09-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:26 AM</span>

Raahl

09-16-2005, 09:22 PM

<P>Used HTL line last night and it definitely helped! And to answer my own question pressing the HTL button a second time does cancel it.</P> <P>I still had to have our mystic hold off casting for 5 seconds otherwise the mobs would jump him.</P> <P> </P>

Aar

09-16-2005, 09:36 PM

I like the CC...makes the game a bit of a challenge. However, gear is all changed... Non rare handcrafted armor is junk now. I see so many people running around in fulginate, and it makes me cringe. Treasured is roughly 20% better mitigation. (242 vs 202 mitigation on non bp/legs) Weapons: Buy imbued legendary crafted rare woodworking weapons (or use heritage quest, as they have comparable damage ratings - though crafted have better procs) Woodworking weapons are relatively cheap (~50gp for cedar on butcherblock) since they use wood rares, and have top end stats (legendary) for the tier they are in. <div></div>

SkySava

09-16-2005, 09:46 PM

<P> After playing with it for about 6 hours last night I've kind of changed my tune on the combat. I actually like it. Mind you, I am sad that I can't pull mobs off of poor group mates anymore but the upside is that, if my healer doesn't over heal the offending DPS member, we are just down one ignorant DPS member for the fight. Their loss, their lesson learned. I do like the stances alot. I really feel the difference between going "Full Offensive" and going "Full Defensive". </P> <P> The only thing I am still a little concerned about is the mitigation and avoidance of other non-fighter classes compared to us. Mages, scouts, and especially pets should not want to take hits. The way it seems now is that, if they over nuke, they can tank for a bit without much problem... especailly scouts. Since they upped the scouts DPS exponentially they should decreased their defense accordingly. Mages deal with being a paper tank... so should scouts. My guild mates that are scouts never use their defensive stance... even when soloing. Their defense is fine without it and the trade off isn't worth it. If you ask me, scouts and magi should require being in defensive stance when soloing ( for the most part).</P> <P>Just my 2 cents.</P>

Frostborne

09-16-2005, 09:52 PM

1) Did our damage really got better? No. <div>2) Can we really compete againts with other classes in the arena?</div> <div> Depends. 3) Is the +5 defense trait useless by level 50 due to the cap?</div> <div> Got me, I didn't get it, I'm a frog. I took the +5% health pool bonus 4) Did we get balance or we just basically got nerfed?</div> <div> Nerfed. </div> <div></div>

Greyform

09-17-2005, 03:01 AM

<DIV> <P><FONT size=1>Each day I log in I hope to see that Sony realized how far off the deep end they went when changing my guardian.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>And each day I become even more disappointed with the realization that they probably really don’t care. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Logging in today was pretty much a confirmation of that realization.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Each class had some twink plus, or minus, but at least some acknowledgment to their existence.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>But my guardian who has lost HP, mitigation, DPS, and agro holding ability, is still pretty much worthless, discarded and disregarded by the folk who decided he was not needed to do the job he was originally designed to do.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I canceled billing on both my guardians account and my templars account and pretty much just have to say my goodbyes to a very cool guild that I just joined.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>I don’t like these changes don’t remember asking for them and certainly did not think I was wasting the time I put into making these characters at the time I was playing the game.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Those of you that have found new joy with the game because now you get to press more buttons in a rapid succession to complete the same task as before, all I have to say is good luck with that carpal tunnel.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Greyform Darkward 47 Guardian.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=1>Greydoc Darkward 44 Templar.</FONT></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Greyform on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:03 PM</span>

Korwyn

09-17-2005, 03:20 AM

<P>I agree 100%!!! I spend almost all my time hitting various (not that we have many now) taunts and keeping the HTL(line) on which is a huge pain in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] just to hold agro 70% of the time if I am lucky!!! After the average fight I am 50% power if I am lucky while the rest of my group (all about my level most with same or better gear (mine is average)) is 80% I am so disapointed...I still have hopes SOE will fix us but like you they are dwindling. The only real light I see at the end of the tunnel is.....Vanguard and D&D online!</P> <P>(I hate the HTL line we should not have to be rooted to hold agro every fight I HATE THAT)</P> <P>Cormac soon to be retired 48 Guardian.</P> <P>Edited for clarificaton</P><p>Message Edited by Korwyn on <span class=date_text>09-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:24 AM</span>

hyks

09-17-2005, 03:25 AM

<DIV><FONT size=3>/agree before expansion came out i was reading the forums and assumption about light armor tanking better then plate class... didnt think it would be this bad!!!!! i agree light armor class should be able to tank a little more but they totally screwed the guardians. i dont even want to log on to play anymore ..... logged on played for about 1 hr and i was very disappointed. cant even bring myself to grind cus it really bad. they nerfed guardians buffs and agro ability and up the bruisers taunts, plus bruisers are still putting out great dps. my friends brusier had about 200 more hate on all his tuants ... we are both in the same guild and im mostly fabled but two items. also, have all my adepts 3s and most of my masters. this blows a big $#$#$....</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by hyksos on <span class=date_text>09-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:27 PM</span>

Astria

09-17-2005, 03:54 AM

lots of high lvl posts, but i can give my feedback as a 25 guardian....i know we're not great solo'ers....my gear is pretty avg, pristine forged, none of it grey, i have at least appIV's and mostly adept1's....i read & re-read the new skills/descriptions, i tested out combat on solo mobs and all seemed well....however, i attempted to start the Splitpaw quest, and the very first instance it puts you in, i cannot get through...I can kill singles fine, a white con i can barely win, but it's prolly about 70/30 on my side to beat the mob...a yellow, i get it down to 20% then die...this is consistent, over ~20 mobs of each con ( yes, i died and retried that many times )....when it comes to multi-mob encounters ( and yes, it is a SOLO instance, therefore SOLO mobs ), i'm toast, plain and simple....the most i can do, is a 3 mob triple down arrow even con....anything higher than that, such as 4 mob even encounter, or a 3+ mob yellow encounter, and i don't stand a chance...I'm not sure if i'm doing something wrong? I'm doing what i can, pull with arrow, turn on autoattack, start doing HO's as fast as all my timers will let me....i've used every trick i know of, every combo of non-grey CA's i have, and i just can't win!If i am unable to complete an easy solo instance, what hope is there? <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> ....a lot of ppl's initial response is - of course! they're yellow mobs! don't fight them! - my response: it's a SOLO instance, shouldn't every class be able to SOLO their way through it?I'm going to give it another try again today, but yesterday was pretty depressing.

slak

09-17-2005, 05:41 AM

<P>Ive got a lv 46 guardian (grogh) I prefer to play solo unless I have to group and this game is unplayable now for me.</P> <P>Solo encounters 10 lvls below me kick my butt and I can't get anywhere i need to to continue most of the quests I was working on as most of those areas are now all heroic.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm waiting a few weeks to see if anyone at SOE comes to their senses, but I doubt they will.</P> <P>One lost station access acct for you SOE</P>

Wabit

09-17-2005, 09:46 AM

<DIV>after 2 lvls post expansion heres my views...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>soloing- at lvl 51 i was soloing groups of lvl 54-55 harpies (the solo encounter), made about 5% per hour on them (and after 700 dead i belive that there is no such loot as a harpy skin)... </DIV> <DIV> but i this time i played around with the stances and 2h v 1h+shield... there is 0 difference between them in either stance (RGF with FBSS, and prisy+ 20% haste shield)... the extra time it took to kill was offset by the silly slow health regen...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>grouping- umm taunts getting resisted sucks, maddining defence is a mustr now for almost every fight... but with good groups its a nonissue, i throw asuasage (sp) adept3 (41% chance to block for target and 28% hate reduction) on the wizzy/warlock, have the scouts put their hate transfer buffs on me... if i don't get resisted on too many taunts agro is really a nonissue... exp is slow, but really ya wanna be lvl 60 in 2 days??? i'm chain pulling whatever is just under red heroic mobs that i can find... respawns are fast so there are some good outdoor camps... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but i hate playing my guard, the fun i used to have in playing is gone... i'm partial fabled gear, and getting hit hard, then a bruiser can tank without taking near as much damage (as any plate tank) or needing near as many heals (haven't grouped with a monk yet)... i have 4 useable taunts + 1 HtL, 2 of which are attacks with a hate compoent added to them, so even if i hit the taunt part is resisted... at adept3 or master1 these taunts get resisted alot... i'm stiffled or rooted in 95% of the fights (soloing) for a good amout of time, the debuffs of the mobs are the same wether its a ^^^ or a 2 down (lowers my agility and wisdom by 65, forget the name)... some of these encounter wide snares have got to go, i'll be on the other side of the desert and all of a sudden i'll be moving 26% slower cause a groupmate is fighting... Gurrellia Lorkill is a horrid mob, i can't even go afk in a 'safe spot' without him popping out of thin air... mob chase speed is too fast too, if i'm SoWed most things have no trouble keepin up with me...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i don't need to have 80% mit and 80% avoid selfbuffed, but i want to be the best tank at something.. dps blows, my taunts are weak, and my utility (umm i know i got some somewhere), and i don't even tank better than any other tank...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wabit (praying that i don't get rolled back cause the zone i was in crashed right after i hit 52)</DIV>

Raahl

09-17-2005, 10:07 AM

<P>Yes in order to keep aggro you will need to use your HTL taunt.</P> <P>Yes it roots you. But so far it is managable. If problems occur you can toggle it off and move. Then toggle it back on.</P> <DIV>The really tough part come when getting aggro from multiple groups. It's almost impossible to get them to aggro you. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also if you ever lose aggro it is also impossible to get it back.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Landiin

09-17-2005, 01:21 PM

Maybe its just me but I like what has changed. /shrug the game is more fun now, you can just walk in and taunt and have solid agro so the mob can be burned down. People have to use their heads now and play smart. <div></div>

Korwyn

09-17-2005, 04:21 PM

<P>Well see we should be better at tanking than Rangers and Monks...here is why...they all get really nice other abilities...Invis, feign death, evac, self heals, huge dmg with the bow etc....we got crap except we were the best at straight tanking...now we suck....they need to let us totally respec from scratch pick a new character class like they did in SWG if they are gonna make such huge changes in a class!</P> <P> </P> <P>Cormac 48 Guardian</P>

stelle

09-17-2005, 05:25 PM

i have to say after playing for 3-4 days, i rarley have aggro issues like i did on the first 2 days one think id like to have changed though, is having aggro re added to commanding presence, thats about it everything else is nice and dandy <div></div>

Aven Elonis

09-17-2005, 06:19 PM

<DIV>Ok, have played 16 to 20 hours so far post CU (50 Guardian, Ebon armor, Fabled Bracers and Shield, Prismatic Sword, all Adept 3 spells plus a Protect Master and Maddening Defense Master II)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can hold aggro reasonable well now (but if I lose it thats it). Have noticed mages seem to take little damage when I lose aggro to them. So maybe I shouldn't worry too much about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Can't seem to run away from most battles when I need to, Call for Help, yeah right. Bad guys seem to follow me for very long time and I can't out run them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Doing writs in LS (solo) is now a life and death scenario. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> So much for helping raise guild level for a while.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't like the 44 and down aggroing me now, particularily since almost all of heroic 40+ kicks my butt seven different ways come Sunday. I was OK will running past sub 45 stuff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I seem to be stunned more often in a battle (maybe 1/3 of time).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I need 2 healers on any group if we fighting heroics (50+) to stay alive - so much for group balance and all that. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have serious doubts that I will still be the Main Tank for my guild in raids based on what I have seen so far. The thought of doing Drayek again (which I've tanked 10 times or so successfully) seems to be foolhearty at this point. I think we may need 10-12 healers in the raid just to keep me standing. (Although it seems any healer can do a good job healing now.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When soloing the Offensive Buff seems more useful than the Defensive Buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Haven't tried the Damage to Me line of spells yet, will give them a go tonight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Those be my thoughts at the moment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aven Elonis</DIV> <DIV>50 Guardian - Tempest, Steamfont</DIV>

Frostborne

09-19-2005, 09:29 PM

One thing I have noticed with certain yellow mobs (which consistanly kill me) is that there are certain kinds that I do better against than others. For instance, of the orcs in Zek that I con against (I'm 28 they are 30), I fight an Orc Patrolman and an Orc XXXX, the other melee mob out there, don't remember the name of it. Anyways, I will win against the yellow con XXXX mob consistanly without taking more than 50 percent damage. Ok, that works for me, it was a good fight, and I'm satisfied with it. The Orc Patrolman? I can get him to maybe 75 percent health before he kills me. If I yell and run, and I mean turn around and hit the run speed button, he is hitting me consistantly from behind, all the way up the end of the docks where the bell is. There are multiple problems with this that I have....first being why does this mob do so much more damage to me than say the other mob, and why? If they are the same con mobs, shouldn't they be doing the same damage or near it? Also, why do they run so much faster than I do, even with my run spell now - and no I'm not using any spells which [Removed for Content] my run speed. Lastly, why are mobs following so much farther now? We had a group come over all the way from where the Orc Warpriests are and that is AFTER we evac'd. I mean [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is the deal with this game now?! There is so much that is broken that was working before, it leads me to believe that they tested the game, but didn't <b>bother </b>to<b> fix</b> what they broke before implementing the patch. I call that <b><i>[Removed for Content] poor </i></b>configuration management and testing. <div></div>

Vandame

09-19-2005, 11:53 PM

<div></div><p>I so far have not been having too much difficulty with single group heroic mobs. I have to agree with everyone that once I loose agro I generally cannot retrieve it until they die.<span> </span>I do like the instant cast of the protection line of spells and have gotten into the habit of having those with in easy key press.<span> </span>If I loose agro my group mate knows that they are suppose to hide behind me (keeps the mob facing me while allowing me to maintain my htl and attempt to pull agro while intercepting some of their damage, even though all but a few times they hold agro until the end)</p><p>With a sudden decrease in my avoidance, pre was at ~70% self buffed with post being 34% self buffed I am getting hit by everything for a significant amount more damage then before.<span> </span>My Fabled tower shield went from a 15% chance to block to a 10% chance to block as well as loosing over 100 AC.<span> </span>It’s now no different then the Fable Kite shield and I am wondering why I am carrying around a door (its cool factor was always -10)</p><p>There is hardly any difference between guardians and pally’s in their mitigation both have a 10% chance to block, same armor class and similar taunts.<span> </span>One concern is given the small difference in HP vs. the pally. <span> </span>Will guardians even be asked to join raids when a pally can easily perform the same function plus their current line of heals, buffs, and combat rez’s along with their larger power pool means they don’t have to worry as much about running out of power during long epic fights?</p><p>Some things to think about when playing your guardian is that your gear matters greatly in your capabilities to full fill the warrior role in your group.<span> </span>Given that mitigation caps out at 80% of total physical damage, once that cap is reached extra AC is not going to have any effect.<span> </span>In solo and small groups, Str will be a needed status modifier as your DPS is a significant part of the total group’s dps. <span> </span>In full groups a balance between Agi and Str matters in less you’re going up against lots of spell casters then Wiz takes priority.<span> </span>In raids your accessories should be maximized for the epics spell type with emphasis given to Wiz with secondary consideration give to agi and sta.<span> </span>Str is a non factor as it only increases your damage which will only play a small part in your taunting ability (some epic mobs I have found while being the MT I could not hit because I was to close).<span> </span>Before DOF I did not have to worry about my AC as much as I was concerned about resistances as my high agility meant I hardly got hit by the mobs crushing blows.<span> </span><span> </span>Now with such low agi, mitigation becomes a significant part to reducing your heal requirements.<span> </span></p><div></div>

Skarsis

09-21-2005, 07:14 PM

I've played my guardian quite a bit since DoF, both as main tank and not. I have to say that (besides an unexplained aggro problem I'm having) I am not noticing much of a difference in regular grouping. Tanking: I still have to taunt every [Removed for Content] time they come up. I have a couple random DPS abilities to keep entertained, and that one big hit (before Retaliate, now Blast) to keep me feeling good about myself as a "fighter". <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> The new "Hold the Line" line was a little akward to get re-adjusted to, but that's pretty much the only problem I had. Also a good mention would be one of our interception buffs that also decreases hate gain by a large amount! This thrown on a trigger happy groupy could really add a bit of control to the your hate gain. Not Tanking: <i>IMPROVED IMO!</i> You can't expect to always be the main tank. Sometimes, somebody is just better equipped to do the job, get over it. When that happens, what good are you? Before, I would throw my damage interception buffs on em, and tap the monsters with my sword. While the real dps hacked away at em. Now, we have more of a choice, as Berserkers did already. Now that most of our protective buffs are Until Canceled, we can just throw em on, switch on offensive, and pretend to be dps. All the while still not as good as the real guys, between our damage and protective powers, we're actually contributing quite a bit. With emergency group protects, and taunts of our own to take over when times get rough. (During any fight, taunt loosely, and expect the other tank to taunt as normal, or <b>take over</b>!) And once again, our hate gain reduction buff on those backstabby scouts, pyromaniacal mages, and oh-so-religious priests who can't contain thier prayers. Overall, I think we Guardians are a little more organized. I would be happy with a mitigation boost! Although I don't think I need it. I would <b>kill</b> for some better taunting power, it's a bit annoying to use my taunting stance, then hit all of my 4 standard taunting abilities (and group buff), immediately, every time they come up, and still end up losing my all of my aggro and power. <div></div>

lun

09-21-2005, 07:57 PM

<DIV>51 guard in fabled and ebon, adept 3's for entire spell line I currently use. WIth a open mind coming in to the new changes, thIs is my take on the changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Spell lines- we took a big hit here IMO</DIV> <DIV> anchor- range nerfed, other spell only have a chance to land their former selves, and some, the added effect removed, now merely DMG</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AC HP- Taken down a bit here,</DIV> <DIV> with the reduction in our hp the least they could have done is leave our mitigation alone.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Mobs in DOF stunning more, what a crock this was, wouldnt you expect guards above else to resist stunns, maybe SOE is scared w/ our uber DPS we might kill the mob to quick</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> New armor- Big disappointment is the new player made cobalt armor</DIV> <DIV> 54 armorer here the new stuff is barley better than ebon, the saves are weak, the mitgiation is only nice upgrade. lets hope the fabled kicks but.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dps - was a joke before / and still is</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And the ONE thing they didnt change that needed changing was TUANTS</DIV> <DIV> They left our argo holding abilities alone, yet increased argo generation by every other class. /cheers SOE </DIV>

Frostborne

09-21-2005, 10:03 PM

Alot of the problems I had stemmed from being sub-30. Sub thirty is rough without offensive/defensive stances. You have one stance to get you through 15 levels, and it's all but useless towards the end. That being said, now that I have it and my new HTL (29) spell, it's been easier. Before that agro was very hard to maintain. I still think we're taking way to much damage, and that some spells that are necessary for the guardian class come to late pre-30, such as the stances and HTL line, and maybe should be given at 22-23....or if they are going to stick with the 1 at 15, then upgrade it at 20 to something that will at least last until 30. <div></div>

Bantel

09-22-2005, 12:41 AM

<DIV>The current line of Guardian taunts and taunting abilities is insufficient.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Example:</DIV> <DIV>We raided Magolemus last night.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was MT, lvl 50 Guardian. Only class of a higher level than me on the raid was a 51 Bruiser (thanx Deslok <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have:</DIV> <DIV>Master 2 - Madenning Defense (n% chance to proc a taunt when the mob hits me)</DIV> <DIV>Adept 3 - Protect, Deafen (direct taunts)</DIV> <DIV>Adept 1 - everything else</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Had Maddening Defense on from the beginning.</DIV> <DIV>Used taunts, Vengeful Strike and Taunting Assault as they bacame available.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lost aggro 4 times to the Bruiser. Bruiser would FD to allow me to regain aggro.</DIV> <DIV>Lost aggro to a Conjuror pet until the Conjuror died.</DIV> <DIV>Lost aggro to a Wizard, regained it with Rescue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nobody on the raid was over nuking, over attacking etc.</DIV> <DIV>In fact, a couple of folks responded that they had been taking it easy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even in a normal exp group, i find I HAVE to use Maddening Defense to maintain aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>IMHO, they need to up the hate value of all of our taunt abilities.</DIV></DIV>

backtostart

09-22-2005, 02:07 AM

I think the answer to the plable but not useful guardian is to give them some kind of resistance buffs and let them cast stun spells faster. that would bring them up to par with other tank classes, especialy since we are the only fighter class that has no heal ability.

Guil

09-22-2005, 07:16 PM

<DIV>So far I've got mixed feelings about the changes. The HTL upgrade is awesome. I used this all the time in its grey Adept III form before, and well, its was ok.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>my biggest question is, why did they take away all the added effects of my taunts? I mean, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? now all i have are some mediocre attack skills with no added abilities in them, and a bunch of different taunts that are pretty much the same thing. There is no utility in them. Just wail on all of them when playing MT to try and maintain aggro. Deafen is the only one i see that SAYS it interrupts, but im still not convinced it works to interrupt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would be happier IF :</DIV> <DIV>SOE would remember that Guardians were billed as DEFENSIVE warriors and Monks would stop thinking they are tanks. Yes i said it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When in any fantasy genre have you seen this<EM> : </EM></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Early one morning at King Arthur's castle an envoy from the east is chatting with King Arthur when someone runs in and says<EM> "OMG ! A Huge %*&^!$% dragon has just been seen outside the castle and is killing everyone. We are screwed! Everyone find a woman and start going at it. Game over man. GAME OVER !"</EM> </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>The envoy turns and says<EM> " King Arthur, tell all the knights in shining armor to take off their armor, and use the martial arts abilities we have been working on to defeat this beast ! What do you mean im crazy? I heard its the best way to defeat them. Thats right, Take OFF the armor! Just avoid being hit and all will be good ! Whats that you say about what to do when you do get hit? I said A-V-O-I-D being hit you fool. You would rather not be hit at all right? RIGHT?"</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><EM></EM></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><EM>"Stop putting your armor back on, your the crazy with this "Armor" business. Dont waste your time. That heavy armor makes you too slow. Its best to just not get hit at all you silly knight. I know you think the shield and heavy armor would be good, but trust me, just AVOID BEING HIT ! Thats right. Thats the NEW Strategy, just Dodge the dragon and use martial arts to kill it. We must train all your troops to be ninjas and not to wear heavy armor, its just too slow. And swords. Pffft ! Those are for fools. Use sticks to kill it. Thats right CLUBS. Man you knights are slow on the uptake. Ok so everyone got it? Everyone have their clubs? SIGH. Baldric, take off your armor, what the hell are you thinking, it will only slow you down ! Now pick up your clubs. Right. All ready then? Ok, off you go....."</EM></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My money is on the dragon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have all heard of epic battles in fantasy being fought by Ninjas right? I mean, someone MUST have read or seen that somewhere for people to think that monks should be fantastic tanks able to endure epic battles with dragons, cyclops, Krakens, etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If this is the scenario SOE is headed for, they need to send a whole lot of emails out to Fantasy writers of books, movies, etc. about how Ninjas are the new Knights. Dig up JRR Tolkein and tell him that armored warriors were just a farce and that he should have had Ninjas take out the orcs and such.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep Guardians as tanks. Let other people have this crazy DPS i keep hearing about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guilen</DIV><p>Message Edited by Guilen on <span class=date_text>09-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:17 AM</span>

BenEm

09-23-2005, 02:26 AM

Hiya' s Im a Templar and was wondering if you guys got a new line of Nuke spells for your class ??

TanRaistlyn

09-23-2005, 02:35 AM

<P>NUKE SPELLS???? HAHAHA...WE are guardians we dont do damage we take it...altho we used to take it and live, being tanks that lived on in infamy, but now we take a couple hits die and then a REAL tank like a Bruiser jumps in and kicks the crap outa the mob...</P> <P>BTW the story with Arthur Very funny, I enjoyed it here at work...</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P>

Gungo

09-23-2005, 03:08 AM

<P>Just messing around but since you want to pull fantasy films and real life situations into view here ya go.</P> <P>haha even jrr tolkien new warriros were [Removed for Content] gimli got his [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] whooped by legolas and stryder. Both those rangers were not only bad [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], but took bettter hits and killed more mobs then gimli. In fact all the warropr types in that film got killed or beat down. The king of rohan .. Dead . Boromir .... dead. sad to say but warriors are [Removed for Content] go ranger =p </P>

TanRaistlyn

09-23-2005, 03:10 AM

<P>Gunga I cant help but notice you stop claiming you have a 52 guardian along with your Bruiser, and I also notice that you tag has gone from 50-51-52 back to 50 again now...weird...</P> <P>and convenient.</P> <P>Covenant</P>

BenEm

09-23-2005, 05:30 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>NUKE SPELLS???? HAHAHA...WE are guardians we dont do damage we take it...altho we used to take it and live, being tanks that lived on in infamy, but now we take a couple hits die and then a REAL tank like a Bruiser jumps in and kicks the crap outa the mob...</P> <P>BTW the story with Arthur Very funny, I enjoyed it here at work...</P> <P> </P> <P>Covenant</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just wondering ....Because Templars got a Mezz line thought you may have gotton a nuke line :smileywink:<BR>

Sunrayn

09-23-2005, 07:55 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Brizzy wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arathon wrote:<BR> <P> I'm not to happy with the changes so far. Ive got a 45th Guardian and I wanted to check out the solo aspect of playing him. <STRONG>I went into the easiest version of Harclave last night to test things out</STRONG>. I normally solo the hardest version of Harclaves without to much trouble. I've got full ebon armor and rare jewelery, weapons, dolls, etc so I would consider myself well equiped. The solo fights leading up to getting the buff were definately harder, I came close to dieing once against a healer type (pariah), where I ended the fight with 25 percent health and 10 percent power. After I got the harclave buff, I tried the first group when you drop off the wall. That was a close fight, ended at about 10 percent health. The healing part of the harclave buff was dropped to 121 hp from the 600 range. This is way to low imo. The second group I pulled was white and essentially did me in, I dont think any of the mobs missed at all. As it is now, I'm sure that I can succeed on the easy version of harclaves with a couple changes in tactics (not a given yet, there are harder mobs in their then the first few groups. However, there is no way that I would be able to even attempt the other versions of the instance. This removes one of the nicer solo spots for a guardian. </P> <P>Arathon</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You know...it's supposed to be hard because it's <EM>difficult</EM>, not because it gives an xp bonus for no real work...right? If I'm playing hard mode, I would expect to die, especially if I playing with a new system I wasn't used to.</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Check out the bolded part of his post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to be sarcastic in a reply, at least comprehend what is being said.</DIV>

Tilane

09-23-2005, 09:48 PM

<DIV>err Guilen </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>monks are no ninja's , ninja's are more like assasins , and you put it soo well that if a big giant dragon swoops in Plate armor seems to make a diffrence ....i dont think the Dragon agrees with your wimpy platemail when it hits , as i dont see why a few mm of plate lets you take so much damage , and as a matter of fact how are you even able to move in that ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but then again we are in a fantasy setting "gasp" where anything is possible , even "shrug" brawlers being able to take a hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if i where you idd put my money on the guy with a Powersuit , Portable rail cannon and a whole lot of range between him and the dragon , but crap they didnt code that into EQ2.</DIV>