So will guardians be desired in groups anymore?

[Skorpeo1]

<DIV>Looking through the boards I see that we are getting a nice hit with the nerf bat and i was wondering if Guardians will be desired in groups from levels 20 to 60?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive just started a new char lv 15 warrior, was going to be a guardian and then all these changes apear in the wing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skorpeo</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skorpeo1 wrote:<BR> <DIV>Looking through the boards I see that we are getting a nice hit with the nerf bat and i was wondering if Guardians will be desired in groups from levels 20 to 60?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive just started a new char lv 15 warrior, was going to be a guardian and then all these changes apear in the wing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cheers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Skorpeo</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>more then likely not if I were you I would reroll a monk or bruiser they are best tanks and dps now

[TunaBoo]

Guardians were never good for much but raid tankings.. seem like we can still eek it out there, but a stupid class to be for non main tanks. <div></div>

[Balmore]

Monkey time! <div></div>

[Nazo]

Friendly advice : Do not make a Guardian for XP groups.

[Drulak]

<P>is this coming from the new dof beta experience ??  currently guards are great for solo/xp grps and raids. So you are saying they have been nerfed soo much , they will only be good for raids ?</P> <P>Please tell me that is not so , i have done like 3 raids in my lifetime as a guardian and do not expect that will go up much , but i do like soloing and normal grps. If i am no longer needed , then there will be no point playing EQ2 anymore ??</P> <P> </P>

[laddich]

<P>It's kind of a wait and see situation. Specualation about the DoF nerfs rule. Everyone, especially on this forum, is extremely negative / cautious about anything that _might_ hurt their ubah-tank. As for XP/Solo, though the Guardian class is kinda slow due to lower DPS, it still has the highest mitigation and best buffs at 50. I would choose Guardian again, if only because all healer types love us (what would they do wihtout us?) and the zerkers just don't cut in tight zones like Lavastorm.</P> <P>That, and the fact we will stay raid main tanks has a great appeal still. Good luck with your incy wincy monkey:smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P>

[TunaBoo]

Well I don't know if you need to take it THAT far.. but a guardian contributes the least DPS to an XP group = slowest XP group.. and you will tank no better then any other fighter. So sure.. you CAN xp as a guardian and run around with friends, but you are at a disadvantage to the other 5 fighter classes. <div></div>

[Tilane]

<P>Welcome to how it has been for monks the past 10 months then .... the last time i tanked for a group was ....umm 5-6 months ago or so ...</P> <P>sure we could , but did they let me tank , nope we just had to need a gaurdian ..</P> <P>i dont blame em , if there is something better , why settle for less</P> <P>besides , the Mentallity from people after the revamp will still be "We need a gaurdian" , the people that that dont read boards is a huge number and they will still be in the lemming mind set gaurdian tanking > all</P>

[blueduckie]

<P>It wont be much different as it is now. As we can solo well atm from what i have heard can still solo fine it is just slow as it is now. I normally would just keep buffs up keep haste running afk while soloing retaliate was often the only dps skill id use cleave / ferocias charge sometimes. It wont be much diff on that aspect from sound. </P> <P>It isnt wise to read to much into the extreme of all that is said. As it is easy to get sucked up into it. 99% of what is said in forums is under extreme circumstances. You will be same for groups as you are now really. Brawlers / Zerkers are better atm because dps is key to fast xp. Guardians Knights can do it but not as effective. Groups will still want a take the same as they do now. It wont be any different. People most likely wont all be anti grouping with a guardian. Guildies always the best to group with anyhoo IMO. If you arnt worried about role on raiding youll be fine out of revamp. Youll have a little more challenge to grouping now it appears with aggro. Nothing that cant be handled tho. Your game play will mostly be the same. Raiding is the biggest question on if we will still take best or not like they are saying. Lots of mixxed info atm kinda hard to believe anyone about it til seeing it for yourself and making your own decisions.</P>

[blueduckie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tilane wrote:<BR> <P>Welcome to how it has been for monks the past 10 months then .... the last time i tanked for a group was ....umm 5-6 months ago or so ...</P> <P>sure we could , but did they let me tank , nope we just had to need a gaurdian ..</P> <P>i dont blame em , if there is something better , why settle for less</P> <P>besides , the Mentallity from people after the revamp will still be "We need a gaurdian" , the people that that dont read boards is a huge number and they will still be in the lemming mind set gaurdian tanking > all</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Imo only stupid members or suck healers require a guardian for a group. Alot of the times when grouping with guildies always make another fighter tank just so i can dps and dont impede on there tanking cause xp mobs are crazy weak. Xping is so easy with good players you must group with some really big tools to not let you tank during xp lol. Xp is all about dps and being able to chain pull. That is just about efficient players. Also i know plenty of brawlers who tank for xp groups probably should set up your own groups if wanna tank as a brawler tho.</DIV>

[Tilane]

<DIV> <DIV>Imo only stupid members or suck healers require a guardian for a group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff99><FONT color=#ffff00>I am tired of convincing people i can tank</FONT> </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alot of the times when grouping with guildies always make another fighter tank just so i can dps and dont impede on there tanking cause xp mobs are crazy weak. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Guildies just see me as Dps because , i dont try to convince them anymore , besides theres always a plate tank around the corner </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Xping is so easy with good players you must group with some really big tools to not let you tank during xp lol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>i thought you just said yourself , you let some other fighter tank and you just dps ...i just do the same</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Xp is all about dps and being able to chain pull. That is just about efficient players. Also i know plenty of brawlers who tank for xp groups probably should set up your own groups if wanna tank as a brawler tho.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>my need to show i can tank has long been gone , there are equally enough tools around that suck as a brawler and destroy what lill people i convinced , what a gaurdian could tank with /slack on we could do with paying 100% attention</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>as i said , why settle for less </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV></DIV>

[RafaelSmith]

Thus far for me my choice as Guardian for my small group of friends that dont raid was a good one.  However after the revamp that will not be the case.  Actually the revamp is pretty much telling my friends and I that if we wanna continue experiencing the game like we have been we ALL need to re-roll our characters...OR if we wanna keep our characters then raiding is all there is for us.  My Guardian is a waste since im overkill in the tank department yet being made useless for anything else..  My healer friends are becomming redundent and like me are being delegated to only one role.  The only one of us that seems to be getting some improovments is our Coercer friend...and even that is debatable since she really wont be a coercer but rather a Wizard "lite" from what we've been told. This revamp is all about the roles classes play in RAIDS....groups dont need pure meatshields, they dont need pure healers....yet some classes are being made to be pure meatsheilds, etc. SOE and many players seem to forget that group roles and raid roles are totally different things...in groups everyone needs to have variety...especially in the case of fighters and priests. <div></div>

[JNewby]

possibly maybe one good thing that aws good that I did as a guard in xp gorup is I duoed with a wizzy or warlock and did not need a healer... since they go down so fast heals were not needed... however if we got an add or 2 we ewre in trouble

[Gaige]

<DIV>/sarcasm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>OMG OF COURSE NOT, WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT A GUARDIAN.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sarcasm</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You guys can feel free to quit wondering when the sky is going to hit you on the head, because it isn't.</DIV>

[ShinigamiD]

Why don't you quit, Gaige, since you'll never tank as well as a Guardian on epic content.

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>Actually he's right we guardians are going to be forced to do harclaves (that got nerfed to btw) the rest of our lives because no one will want to group with our whiny [Removed for Content] anymore...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So start lobbying for more solo content.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Brocc]

<span><blockquote><hr>RafaelSmith wrote:My Guardian is a waste since im overkill in the tank department <div></div><hr></blockquote>Okay, speaking as an Inquisitor who almost always groups with a Guardian and a Warlock - there is no such thing as 'overkill' in the tank department *smiles* We look to the Warlock to kill, not the guardian.  We look to the Guardian to hold out against crazy odds after we've wandered way too far into a dungeon.  I'm certain we could work with any Fighter, but nothing I've read about the rewrite makes me wish we didn't have a Guardian. On my server (i would guess most servers) there is a glut of fighters, guardians in particular.  I expect we'll see growing pains since, honestly, we'll wish we had more mages and scouts.  I guess, short term, DPS fighters will do better than non-DPS - but when this all shakes out and we've got more *real* DPS - I think guardians will find their role is still very useful.</span><div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Broccli wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>RafaelSmith wrote:My Guardian is a waste since im overkill in the tank department <div></div><hr></blockquote>Okay, speaking as an Inquisitor who almost always groups with a Guardian and a Warlock - there is no such thing as 'overkill' in the tank department *smiles* </span><div></div><hr></blockquote> We're talking about exp groups here.  Perhaps 'overkill' is the wrong term...what i mean to say is in EXP groups any fighter will do...why use one that brings nothing else to the table when you can do the same job with one that does?  In my situation after these changes I will have chosen the wrong class for what we do. </span><div></div>

[Skorpeo1]

<P>Ahhh, its all to confusing.  So many opinions, hell we even have monks who come and add their 2 cp trying to fire up guardians.</P> <P>Maybe it would be better choosing Zerker at lv 20.</P> <P>  </P>

[Sasaki Koji]

Learn to use your skills efectively after revamp and there shouldnt be much of an issue.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<BR><SPAN>In my situation after these changes I will have chosen the wrong class for what we do.</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Such a great comment.</P> <P>See, his predicament is the opposite of most of us posting here.  Most of us raid.  Those who didn't roll guardians get told "that's what you get for choosing the wrong class".  We say all classes should be able to be interchangeable, etc.  People tell us to read the descriptions and how stupid we are for thinking anyone but guardian can be a raid MT.</P> <P>But Rafael's situation is on the other end of the spectrum.  His small group mostly does heroic stuff, and because of the guardians lack of utility and lowest DPS, he feels that any of the other fighters are a better choice.</P> <P>Which is exactly what we are talking about here.  If you guys have crappy utility and really horrible DPS, get that changed.  Sure you'll always be lowest fighter damage but that doesn't mean it has to suck totally.  Gaps can be small.</P> <P>All of you guys willing to give up 100% of utility and do 1 dmg per swing are only thinking of yourselves, not players like Rafeal who chose this class for reasons not including MT'ing raids.</P> <P>A "true" archetype system would remedy this situation.  <BR></P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote: <p>  His small group mostly does heroic stuff, and because of the guardians lack of utility and lowest DPS, he feels that any of the other fighters are a better choice.</p> <p>Which is exactly what we are talking about here.  If you guys have crappy utility and really horrible DPS, get that changed.  Sure you'll always be lowest fighter damage but that doesn't mean it has to suck totally.  </p><div></div><hr></blockquote> I guess where im comming from is that currently (pre revamp) i dont feel i have horrible DPS or utility...i can serve the tank role to the level required by my group which is nowhere near that required for a raid AND I also feel as though I contribute to the DPS.   ALl that is going away because of problems in a area of the game I dont even take part in.   I just wish they could have fixed things by improovment where needed instead of fixing by screwing groups like mine.</span><div></div>

[Brocc]

<span><blockquote><hr>RafaelSmith wrote:<span> ALL that is going away because of problems in a area of the game I dont even take part in.   I just wish they could have fixed things by improovment where needed instead of fixing by screwing groups like mine.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>See, I think there are problems *outside* of raiding that need fixing.  I've been in pick-up groups of all Fighters and me (Inquisitor) - because fighter DPS was quite good enough to skip Mages or Scouts.  Full group without a Fighter or Priest - rare.  Full group without a Scout or Mage - sure. As I said - there are a glut of fighters filling all sorts of roles - some of those roles are being scaled back - there's gonna be pain *smiles*.  I understand the worries. My normal group is also small (3) and also uses a Guardian, just not so much for DPS.  And we don't XP off of low-risk blues much.  This'll be easier on us.  Your group sounds kinda similar (coercer should pick up what the guardian loses in DPS) so I thought maybe it'd be okay - but sounds like your playstyle is different. Still, against low-risk blues, wasn't a DPS tank already a better choice?  DPS everything doesn't include pure healers (templars?) or coercers either.</span><div></div>

[aaron_borst]

<div></div>Honestly I dont know what the problem is here. I started playing with a group of friends a few months back. 1 person rolled a Wizard, 1 a Warlok, 1 a Templar, and I rolled a Guardian.  We formed a guild with a couple of other players and we were set. The whole time I have been playing I have raided about 5 tomes. Us Four would just form our group and XP and Quest. I never had any problems as a guardian in this capacity. As a Guardian I tank perfectly well in small xp groups, I tank perfectly well in raids, and perfectly well againt heroics.  I think that A guard is a perfect tanking class and Im sure it will be fine after the next update. It seems to me that all this arguement is instigated by a couple of people that want to argue. On no other class boards have I seen so many posts that are flaming others and just sound [Removed for Content] off. I think this forum needs to get back to a source of information and help for Guardians and not a slugfest between Guards and Brawlers.(Although when PvP rolls out I would like to see Gaige and Tuna duke it out/<span>:smileyhappy:</span>) <div></div><p>Message Edited by aaron_borst on <span class=date_text>09-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:26 PM</span>

[Skorpeo1]

<P>Yep, Fair points.</P> <P>But my original post was regarding xp groups.  I dont play as much as most people here I guessing so I dont have a regular group.  Sometimes its hard to find a group because the friends I do make end up leveling alot quicker so I dont end up grouping with them for too long.  I like the idea of plate wearing classes and tanking, Im just worried that as a guardian grinding through the levels that I will now be less desired in a group as another tank type will bring more to groups.</P>

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV>Depends. Get an XP group after revamp and see how you do <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. if youre good and you group with those who know their classes, you may not have too much of a problem. if you suck and group with idiots, well R.I.P. =)</DIV>

[Wabit]

<P>pickup groups always scare me...  in the current form of the game it so easy to lvl to 50 never needing a group outside of doing heritage quests...  i hit 50 pretty early, and you needed to group back then to get to 50 (it was either looted armor or nostats merchant armor as the norm)...</P> <P>now as the game has progressed i find more often than not ppl don't have a real idea of how to group (had a lvl 50 templar ask me what i meant when i said put reactives up before i pull mago for them for an example), what anything other than a solo HO is...</P> <P>so wondering if guards will still be needed in exp groups, yes because it deals more with the person at the keyboard rather than the class...  as the tank you pretty much dictate where you go, the pace of the pulls, ect...</P> <P>you do those things well, keep agro, and don't get into things over your groups head, you'll be fine...  i'll usually ask in /gu if ppl know player X before grouping with them...  ppl rememeber good pickup exp groups, even if they out lvl you others in their guild probably haven't...  just keep in mind ppl also rememeber a bad tank...</P> <DIV>just a different point of view on your question...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wabit</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<P>Again I'm amazed at this thread, every group needs a tank, but there's a lot of tanks out there.  Plain and simple if you suck word will spread fast and you won't get groups and will end up soloing rats in god knows where to level.  If your good, people will remember that and send you the tell first if they see you lfg.  Personally, I was rarely in pickup groups for exp from level 40 on, and I don't see myself being in them much once the expansion comes out.</P>

[Tomanak]

<P>I wouldnt stress it. If guardians arent wanted roll another toon. :smileywink:</P> <P>However, that being said I agree with those who point out that its not the archtype that matters, its the person behind the keyboard. Contrary to what the ignorant believe, just being a Guardian doesnt automatically make you a good tank any more than being a Monk makes you a bad one. </P> <DIV>If I discover post combat changes that my Guardian isnt fun to play anymore, I'll just follow the crowd and roll a necro :smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[kr8ztwin]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR> <P>Again I'm amazed at this thread, every group needs a tank, but there's a lot of tanks out there.  Plain and simple if you suck word will spread fast and you won't get groups and will end up soloing rats in god knows where to level.  If your good, people will remember that and send you the tell first if they see you lfg.  Personally, I was rarely in pickup groups for exp from level 40 on, and I don't see myself being in them much once the expansion comes out.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>so ya gotsss sumfin gainst ratzzzz? :robottongue:

[TuinalOfTheNexus]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Gaige wrote: <P> </P> <P>Which is exactly what we are talking about here.  If you guys have crappy utility and really horrible DPS, get that changed.  Sure you'll always be lowest fighter damage but that doesn't mean it has to suck totally.  Gaps can be small.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If we do lowest damage, logic would dictate we should have highest mitigation (and will, therefore, be the best raid tanks).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we do lowest damage, and have equivalent mitigation to every other fighter class, then we're plain and simple inferior to them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's in failing to see this point across the entire class spectrum that means this latest round of changes is doomed to result in imbalance. Why take a templar, warden, or mystic for your exp group when an inquisitor, fury, or defiler can do the same job and get you killing faster? Why take a guardian when a monk can tank and still put out better dps? Utility buffs and abilities are largely trivial, and in particular guardian buffs that 'protect' other group members are utterly useless when you can hold aggro easily on 2-3 encounters. Conversely, why would you want the offensive variants in the MT group on raids? And yet, the people playing the offensive variants are demanding roles tanking and primary healing raid encounters because of some mysterious kudos attached to being the MT, while the people in defensive classes want exp groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Throughout the game there are 'defensive' and 'offensive' variants of each subclass. This is inherently a mistake for the above reasons. I was hoping they'd take this opportunity to move away from this fundamentally flawed mechanic but they seem to have no intention of doing so. I would happily tank 1/6th of raid encounters if I could put out comparative damage to the other tank classes. <EM>The variety people whine about should come in a bias towards encounter type</EM> - e.g. make guardians better at tanking multiple mobs at once, while monks are good against casters, zerkers good against single mobs, etc, not in across-the-board ability to deal and take damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Expecting guardians to accept terrible dps, alongside 'average' tanking, in exchange for a few utility buffs would be a slap in the face for em.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>