Beta parse monk vs gaurd.. for airoguy

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV>Noah wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did some comparison between a Monk and myself.  I dont see where the big issue is coming up with "brawlers" being this awesome tank.  Here is what i showed for stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> <P>               Guardian    Monk</P> <P>Unbuffed   4230           3471  -hps</P> <P>               2748           1146   - miti</P> <P>               53.9            67.2   - avoidance</P> <P>Buffed      4812          3933</P> <P>               3536/ 70.7     2192/ 43.8</P> <P>                61.0            74.2</P> <P>We were in the same group.  I probably have a bonus of 10% more mitigation comparing armor (IE i have more fabled then the monk).  Even then that would be a lose of 350 miti to even out the armor quality.   When parsing the monk seemed to do just fine vs Blue +++ group mobs (we were duoing them).  On a fight where the monk used Tsunami he would take 200 total damage on average.  When he did not use it... it varied from 450-700 total damage .  The upper damage taken was also when I did not have my avoidance buffs on him.   We did not test Intercept effectivenesss.</P> <P>When I was tanking, I took 100-250 damage overall consistantly. Power consumption was large on both our parts when tanking... not so much while dpsing.</P> <P>The monk parsed about 10-20 dps higher than me on all fights when he was tanking and full defensive.  When I started tanking... my dps dropped 30dps lower than his on average.</P> <P>No testing has been done on raid mobs as of yet.   Anyone else have any "Guards buffing someone for a superior tank" numbers ?   </P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________</P> <P>combat revamps are pretty much done now really they are just fixing broken arts abilites.. so this is what we all get. liek it or leave it.. </P></FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Nemi]

<P>Nice to see the OMGWTFBBQ monks do UBER DPS!!1!!11! oh noes! belief of Guardians nailed.</P> <P>10-20 dps higher at level 60 between monk and guardian? Now where is the argument that we shouldn't tank as well because we do uber-scoutBBQwarlock DPS?</P> <P>For 10-20DPS higher, we take roughly 3 times more damage than a Guardian on Blue+++ group mobs, what is missing from this is how often the monk took damage and what was the overall damage per fight like between Guard and Monk.</P><p>Message Edited by Nemi on <span class=date_text>09-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:40 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>The loss in dps is due to the changes the recently had perfromed on stances where as a true defense stance lacks dps, where a true offense stance lacks tanking. You now choose ur buffs accordingly dps, tank, or solo stances.This increases the fighters overall utility. whether he tanks or is a backup tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just because i wanted to start another debate. If tankign is relatively close now, but lets say gaurds are a 10%(fake number no actual substantial data to back that up ) better at tanking. Guards still don't have 360 degree block parry etc. So on a swarm type mob where a tank would take dam from all directions is a brawler a better tank ?</DIV> <P>overall i am relatively happy with the changes gaurds are slightly better tanks, but not so much so that i am obsolete. i still have decent dps in the fighter tree. and the hope is still out there for me that those few swarm raid mobs i may be a better tank :smileywink: <P>Situational tanking at its finest.</P><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:41 PM</span>

[Nemi]

<P>Taking 3 times the damage of a Guardian does not mean 'close' in my book. The monk would have to avoid a hell of a lot more than the Guardian to make up for that, especially as you ramp up the con levels.</P> <P>However, I'm sure you'll see far more use out of Coercers and Illusionists to nail down multiple mob pulls now, pretty much negating the penalty to plate class tanks.</P> <p>Message Edited by Nemi on <span class=date_text>09-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 AM</span>

[Gungo]

The reality is this is what we got. The fact is we actually do better then what that parse seems to show.

[Airog]

Haha, Nemi, you a monk? If so, this is great, a monk and bruiser talking on Guards board, haha, thanks for the post Gungo.

[blueduckie]

quite a difference in fabled gear in the monk / guardian. As listed lvl of loot will make a big differences also legendary - fabled etc. Over all those markings look good but in comparison if monk in as much fabled cuts dmg down to the same. Then that is pretty sad that monks do more dmg in defense stance than guardian in offense stance.

[Gungo]

from what i hear your offense stance is kinda useless although i havent tested it after last nights update on stances. But basically it takes way to long for u to solo. i mean liek hit atk, make a sandwich, come back, hit soem combat arts, go take a poop, come back hit some combat arts and kill the mob kinda of slow (exaggeration its about 8 min on a 1 up yellow con). The stances are a great idea to help with tanks versitality but soloing should not be a that bad.

[blueduckie]

yeah i wish theydput haste back on our desperate ____ skills. I dont expect any tank to out dps any other fighter while in defense stance and they are in offensive stance. I expect when guardian is in defense and bruise in offensive to have the widest fighter gaps in possible parses but i dont expect bruiser in defense stance to out dps guardian in offensive stance if both have good gear. Now who is to say what weapons where being used. Any clue if noah was using a good 2h or good dw? I wish they would give brawlers a dps lowering on fists and require brawlers to go bare fist to tank like we are required a shield to tank even xp mobs i am told. Would be little more balancing to making stances more effective. Just a thought tho. Am fairly happy with tanking numbers if it holds close to same with monk in equal fabled. However every raid tester ive talked to who has compared has sung a different toon than those numbers.

[Gaige]

<P>1) We parsed at lvl 50.</P> <P>2) We parsed before the stance changes.</P> <P>3) I have all adept 3 from 37 to 50, including 8 t5 masters.  So even though has 3 more fabled armor than me, and more fabled items, I seriously doubt that skews the results very much in his favor, other than mitigation, which he talked about in his original post.</P> <P>We were both all defense, all the time, even when the other was tanking.  Pretty sure he was using Vulcanized Tower and Prismatic, and I was using ACGF.  Most the time when I was tanking I only had my buffs up, he was just doing damage, except for a few times when he used his avoidance buff on me.  When he tanked it was just self buffed also.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Seeing as though people tend to leave out other facts like gear used, buffs etc it sort of tends to skew the results and makes it pretty much moot.</P> <DIV> <P>So here is some more comparisons stat wise, and what do ya know, its a Brusier who did this one as well :</P> <P>Tunabash is the Guardian and Faneliax is the Brusier.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>comparison unbuffed:<BR></FONT>Guardian <BR>4149 HP<BR>2252 Power<BR>54,3% Avoidance<BR>55,6% Mitigation<BR><BR>Bruiser:<BR>4201 HP<BR>2078 Power<BR>68,2% Avoidance<BR>34,14% Mitigation</P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>comparison buffed:<BR></FONT>Guardian<BR>HP: 4762<BR>Power: 2252<BR>Avoidance: 57,2 %<BR>Mitigation: 62,7%<BR><BR><BR>Bruiser<BR>HP: 4201<BR>Power: 2224<BR>Avoidance: 74,8%<BR>Mitigation: 55,9%  while draining Health ~90 Hp a tick !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then she did another test on another Guardian vs Faneliax :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dwohanx is the Guardian and Faneliax is the Brusier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>So now we look at those numbers:</DIV> <DIV>Guardian unbuffed:</DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Dwohans HP: 4010</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Dwohans Avoidance: 55%<BR>Dwohans Mitigation: 3048 ( : 50) = 61%<BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV>Bruiser unbuffed:</DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Fanelias HP: 4201</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Fanelias Avoidance: 68%<BR>Fanelias Mitigation: 1707 ( : 50) = 34%<BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian buffed:</DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Dwohans HP: 4967</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Dwohans Avoidance: 59.8%<BR>Dwohans Mitigation: 4758 ( : 50) = 80% ( capped while using the 30 second mitigation buff )<BR></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN>Bruiser buffed:</SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN>Fanelias HP: 4201</SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN><SPAN>Fanelias Avoidance: 74,8%<BR>Fanelias Mitigation: 2795 ( : 50 ) = 55,9 %  ( Hp draining while using this buff )<BR></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV>In all these Guardian was using his shield and they all used there self buffs only.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because of the changes to Auto Attack speed and the entire Fighter class had their self only haste effects ethier taken away completely or nerfed, 2 handers will make a come back while tanking and not wanting to take so much ripostes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dual weilds while in Offensive stance modes while off tanking will make a come back if you want to play a more succesful role in DPS, especially if you cant get the haste you used to get on live, for example, Berserkers go from having around 120 - 130% haste on a constant basis on live to around 45% on a constant basis ( only taking into effect FBSS ) plus you then have to take the auto attack damage speed away from that haste amount also because of the adjustment to auto attack damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With 2 handers becoming so much slower, the amount of proc's one used to be able to get with a very slow hitting 2 hand wep on live due to having 120 - 130% haste, will become ALOT less after the revamp. The proc ratio was based of base weapon speed, so a weapon with say 3.7 delay coming down to 1.8 seconds due to 130% haste but procing like a 3.7 second weapon should, will be no more. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This also was applied to buffs that was put on you from other class that allowed you to proc a damage upon a succesfull attack. The slower the wep, the more you proc'ed, the faster you swung that slower wep, the more you proc'ed again but the amount you proced wasnt changed according to your 3.7 second delay wep becoming a 1.9 second delay wep, it stayed the same at a proc ratio based of a 3.7 second delay wep even though you were swinging it at 1.8 second delay. So in other words, the proc ratio didnt scale down with haste.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is the reason why Berserkers trivialised having very slow 2 hand weps because of the amount of haste they could gain, put a Coercer or Illusionist in the same group and it became even better again, some Berserkers pushing out 500+ dps on certain encounters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers could also do the same with a slow 2 hander, put a Berserker in his group so he can add to the Brawler his group haste, plus his own self haste, plus a Coecers / Illusionists haste, then the Berserker adds to the Brawler a buff called Infuriate which allows him to Berserk adding another 40% haste and hey presto, you have a Berserker pumping out 400+ dps depending on encounter while tanking and the Brawler doing well over 300 dps per single targeted mob on a constant basis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After the 9/02 changes on beta, Brawlers are sitting around 1200 atk and have self haste still, where Guards on the other hand are sitting at like 750 - 820 attack with no self haste or no self haste at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The orginal info in the OP means nothing, cant see stats, gear, buffs, group set up, nothing. All we see is Mitigation, HP and avoidance........:smileyindifferent: I wouldnt even call it a parse. </DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Gungo]

Not trying to form another argument unless they changed something today as i am visiting my paretns for the holiday weekend. You are showing a bruisers tanking, yet imply they have haste. Bruisers have no self haste or group haste, monks do. I do however have a group dps buff in beta.

[-Aonein-]

<P>No Gonzo i was stating that the OP which is yours, which is a quote from Noah is hardly a parse, it isnt even a parse, where is the techincal infomation? Where is the screen shots of the parse used? Where is the screen shots of stats, group set up etc etc.</P> <P>That was my point, and Bruisers dont need a Haste buff when they have a 10% chance to proc 1000+ damage do they :</P> <P> </P> <DIV> <P><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/nathan1337/master2s.jpg"></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>This is just there stances let alone other damage arts they get which can be all seen <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=7671&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>here</FONT></STRONG></A>.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>You are spot on with one thing you said, its not going to get any better then this.</SPAN></P></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> -Aonein- wrote: <P>After the 9/02 changes on beta, Brawlers are sitting around 1200 atk and have self haste still, where Guards on the other hand are sitting at like 750 - 820 attack with no self haste or no self haste at all.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Please do not spread misinformation.  In that screenshot, I'm sitting at 1172 atk, self buffed, AT LVL 60, with t6 fabled weapons and all t6 master Is and 2s.  Every spell.  Those beta raid weapons are like 49.9 dr dual wield, they are ridiculous.<BR>

[Sasaki Koji]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Noah wrote:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Did some comparison between a Monk and myself.  I dont see where the big issue is coming up with "brawlers" being this awesome tank.  Here is what i showed for stats.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=2> <P>               Guardian    Monk</P> <P>Unbuffed   4230           3471  -hps</P> <P>               2748           1146   - miti</P> <P>               53.9            67.2   - avoidance</P> <P>Buffed      4812          3933</P> <P>               3536/ 70.7     2192/ 43.8</P> <P>                61.0            74.2</P> <P>We were in the same group.  I probably have a bonus of 10% more mitigation comparing armor (IE i have more fabled then the monk).  Even then that would be a lose of 350 miti to even out the armor quality.   When parsing the monk seemed to do just fine vs Blue +++ group mobs (we were duoing them).  On a fight where the monk used Tsunami he would take 200 total damage on average.  When he did not use it... it varied from 450-700 total damage .  The upper damage taken was also when I did not have my avoidance buffs on him.   We did not test Intercept effectivenesss.</P> <P>When I was tanking, I took 100-250 damage overall consistantly. Power consumption was large on both our parts when tanking... not so much while dpsing.</P> <P>The monk parsed about 10-20 dps higher than me on all fights when he was tanking and full defensive.  When I started tanking... my dps dropped 30dps lower than his on average.</P> <P>No testing has been done on raid mobs as of yet.   Anyone else have any "Guards buffing someone for a superior tank" numbers ?   </P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________________</P> <P>combat revamps are pretty much done now really they are just fixing broken arts abilites.. so this is what we all get. liek it or leave it.. </P></FONT></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>now.... just put them in the same group and re-post the difference

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> -Aonein- wrote: <P>After the 9/02 changes on beta, Brawlers are sitting around 1200 atk and have self haste still, where Guards on the other hand are sitting at like 750 - 820 attack with no self haste or no self haste at all.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Please do not spread misinformation.  In that screenshot, I'm sitting at 1172 atk, self buffed, AT LVL 60, with t6 fabled weapons and all t6 master Is and 2s.  Every spell.  Those beta raid weapons are like 49.9 dr dual wield, they are ridiculous.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You arent the only one who is beta buffed Gage. Basically everyone has Master I's and beta fabled gear set ups in one form or another unless they were copied over with full fabled already.</P> <P>That info is not misinformed, did i say at lvl 50 you were running around with 1200 atk? No because at this point most are beta buffed to 60. Problem was, maybe i wasnt informative enough, but you cleared up that <STRONG><U>little</U></STRONG> bit of misconception that was there for the rest of the people. </P> <P>In your screen shot Gage your acually at 1176 atk at lvl 60, those crazy lvl 60 weps with 49.9 dmg rating on them, you think they wont exsist? Not exactally as they are now, but similar?</P> <P>If what your saying is, that means everyone is misinformed because if anyone posts any information, stats, numbers after lvl 50 from beta or test means it isnt real, unless there using real gear they have gathered from questing with in DoF and leveled themselves normally to 60 instead of being beta buffed with gear, lvls and CA's. So either way, its all misinformed information, so the only people spreading it is the people who are on beta and test to begin with, like yourself for example posting you have 1172 atk with beta fabled buff raid weps coming in at 49.9 dmg rating, which i might add in that screen shot you dont acually state what weapon your using or a screen shot of it so people would then understand why your atk rating is so high.</P> <P>Make no mistake, the only real bit of information we even get from beta / test people is combat changes arent no where near ready to go live, but what will SoE do?</P>

[Moski]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>No Gonzo i was stating that the OP which is yours, which is a quote from Noah is hardly a parse, it isnt even a parse, where is the techincal infomation? Where is the screen shots of the parse used? Where is the screen shots of stats, group set up etc etc.</P> <P>That was my point, and Bruisers dont need a Haste buff when they have a 10% chance to proc 1000+ damage do they :</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Please dont spead wrong informations :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Our Defense Stance has NO proc.</P> <P>Our Offense Stance does. And the Mixed Stance, too.</P> <P>But read the Skill descritions carefully. The 1k Proc [you are reffering to] is a 10% proc chance IF primary and secondary slot is empty.</P> <P>That meand: NOT even one Bruiser will ever use the stances for the procs. You cant hit any named heroic, or a epic mob with bare fists. You get a "your weapon is not ...". Btw will you loose all benetits from both slots (mana regen, stats, procs, hp, power, whatever).</P> <P><BR> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moskito wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>No Gonzo i was stating that the OP which is yours, which is a quote from Noah is hardly a parse, it isnt even a parse, where is the techincal infomation? Where is the screen shots of the parse used? Where is the screen shots of stats, group set up etc etc.</P> <P>That was my point, and Bruisers dont need a Haste buff when they have a 10% chance to proc 1000+ damage do they :</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Please dont spead wrong informations :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Our Defense Stance has NO proc.</P> <P>Our Offense Stance does. And the Mixed Stance, too.</P> <P>But read the Skill descritions carefully. The 1k Proc [you are reffering to] is a 10% proc chance IF primary and secondary slot is empty.</P> <P>That meand: NOT even one Bruiser will ever use the stances for the procs. You cant hit any named heroic, or a epic mob with bare fists. You get a "your weapon is not ...". Btw will you loose all benetits from both slots (mana regen, stats, procs, hp, power, whatever).</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL i even supply a screen shot of the Brusier stances and im spreading wrong information.......:smileyindifferent: i suppose it is misinformed information though because its still in beta / test and not on live yet....</P> <DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>By the way Moskito, im fully aware of the way they work. Does that mean that both your Offensive stance and your mixed Fire Stance are totally useless? </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Also wasnt there mention of them adding the skill for Bare Fists in the game? which could be the reason they dont work, but if they dont work on x2, x3 and x4 mobs, that makes perfect sense, cant have you guys having a 250 skill in Bare Fists + procing 1000+ dmg now can we. All of my heavy damage arts wont work on Epic x2, x3 and x4 mobs but they do how ever work on all Heroic mobs. But then again seeing as you are sacraficing the stats and other effects ( that a very small selection of weps supply ) then they should work on anything reguardless of what it is.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>But even so, keeping your weapons equipped and still having a 287 - 469 dmg proc on a constant basis plus your other direct damage arts is still more then the majority of the arch type gets.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Here is some parsing from Neril, lvl 50 monk in all normal lvl 50 gear, no beta buffed gear or pretend gear, no BS, straight up what is in the game today, he is using over there at the current moment with 9/03 changes :</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><SPAN class=time_text> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P>Nerill wrote:</P> <DIV>I took the time to do some parsing a couple nights ago and this is what I found:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><STRONG>( All fights were done in Lavastorm against Level 48 ^^ " a hardened colossus " using my Level 50 Monk "Banzai" <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Banzai has mostly T5 crafted armor with his tunic being fabled. Weapons are my Prismatic Baton and the Right Hand of Master McGill</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG>Winding Dragon (Adept I)</STRONG> w/ Everburning Fire, Quiet Purity and Control Breathing</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(This is our <U>Defensive</U> stance)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ave DPS: 76.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Ave Damage Taken: 2482</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#66ff00>Findings: 3 weeks ago our DPS in this stance was about 114 DPS and the fights were a lot closer. Now our DPS is down quite a bit but we take <STRONG>much</STRONG> less damage. It would appear that the mitigation in this stance is good and that this stance is about where it should be !</FONT> </FONT></EM><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif" width=16 border=0> Great job Devs !!</DIV> <DIV><EM><U></U></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><U></U></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><U></U></EM> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG>Spider Stance (</STRONG>Adept<STRONG> I)</STRONG> w/ Everburning Fire</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(This is our <U>Balanced</U> stance )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ave DPS: 97.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Ave Damage Taken: 2188 ( less damage taken becuase fights were over quicker due to increased DPS )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffff00>Findings: The main problem with this stance is that it uses <STRONG>5 concentration</STRONG> and thus prohibits us from using our other buffs. I ask that this stance be <STRONG>reduced to 4 concentration</STRONG> so that we still have the choice of using Quiet Purity <STRONG>or</STRONG> Control Breathing. DPS from 3 weeks ago is fairly similiar. Parsing showed 101 DPS back then and now is at about 97DPS. </FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ffff00><STRONG><U>Again, please reduce concentration to 4 and this stance is good to go !</U></STRONG> <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></EM></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV><U><STRONG>Halcyon Blessing (App I) </STRONG>w/ Everburning Fire, Quiet Purity and Control Breathing</U></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(This is our <U>Offensive</U> stance )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ave DPS: 105 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Ave Damage Taken: 2258</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><FONT color=#ff3300>Findings: This stance <STRONG>used</STRONG> to be right on the money and now it is the worst one ! Tanking in this stance <STRONG>used</STRONG> to be VERY bad. Now it is <STRONG>not a big deal</STRONG> to tank in this stance. You <STRONG>should</STRONG> be giving up your ability to tank well for increased DPS. Instead our DPS went <STRONG>down</STRONG> from about 125 DPS 3 weeks ago to 105 DPS and I was still able to solo quite well in this stance. </FONT></EM><IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><EM><STRONG><U><FONT color=#ff3300>Please, increase Offensive output ( DPS ) and reduce Defensive abilities for this stance. I would like to see DPS around 125 - 130 while in this stance and a greatly reduced ability to tank ! This stance needs work !</FONT></U></STRONG></EM></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Our stances are a little closer to being ready for live but there is still <STRONG>too little</STRONG> variation between them. The difference between our Defensive and Balanced seems about right but the difference between our Balanced and Offensive is <STRONG>horrible! </STRONG></DIV> <DIV><EM></EM> </DIV> <DIV>I hope that these findings will <STRONG>help</STRONG> the DEVs fine tune our stances and hopefylly put to rest many concerns of the Monk community.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=20687" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=20687</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok now we got a screen shot of the stances :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>                                                                                      </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img348.imageshack.us/img348/1616/windingmaster21km.jpg">   <IMG src="http://img348.imageshack.us/img348/8370/halyconmaster27vz.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://img348.imageshack.us/img348/979/spiderstanceadept32ap.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see his Mixed stance ( Spider Stance ) which results in <STRONG><U>NO</U></STRONG> reduction to any skills in reguards to Crushing, Slashing or peircing, <STRONG><U>NO</U></STRONG> reduction to Defense, Parry and <STRONG><U>NO</U></STRONG> reduction too damage per second is the better stance to use at of the three with him taking even less damage then his primary Defensive Stance ( Winding Dragon ). Bruisers also have the same Mixed Stance but change the Haste with a 200+ to 400+ dmg proc. <DIV>Also Note that the screen shots arent the same quaility as the ones he used in his test, but the results in his test would of only been better if they had been.</DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Seeing as Troubadors buff up Defense and Dirges buff up Parry now, not too mention the other skills that other class's buff up in reguards to Crushing, Slashing, Peircing and Ranged etc, Brawlers are becoming a much much better Tank, id say that in a group Brawlers will be the better tank due to not having any decrease what so ever to Defense and Parry while also keeping there Offensive skills intact and not having any of those reduced ethier plus boosting there Deflection skills also.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But i suspose all this information is deemed void and invalid and im just spreading more misinformation or what ever they want to call it. If you guys are going to cry for balance, make sure no other Brawlers post information about your class, cause it just makes you guys look stupid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want a real comparison, just look at the Guard skills from lvl 10 to 60 then go over to Monk / Brusier boards and check theres from lvl 10 - 60, but i suspose thats all invalid and there spreading there own misinformed information also.....</DIV></DIV></DIV></SPAN></DIV></DIV>

[Gungo]

Don't worry gaige i basicaly ignore taemek now he always lies, uses false assumptions, half sentence miss quotes from spell combat changes, and name calling to try to prove a point never any actual factual data. He trys to compare things using multiple class skills showing one side of a skewed argument. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>see the problem w Taem is he doesn't actually play beta he is not even a gaurd or bruiser. I didn't post that link from noah for him to cry about, but airoguy asked me since he is nto on beta. I would think if Noah an actual raid leader and guild leader of FoH who is the only person on these boards that i can confirm tested raid content in beta is happy with the changes, they why is [Removed for Content] like taem crying (who plays a bezerker in gam btw). I play beta i beta buffed a gaurd and bruiser, i also play my toon there. I test group and solo content because thats all i can do. Taem reads numbers on boards and rehashes other people's opinion and pretends that he actual had his own thoughts. Sometimes i feel sory for Taem because of the way he is, then i realize ignorance is bliss.</DIV> <DIV>so once again for Taem since i know he has a comprehension problem. The Core Combat changes are done on beta. Brawlers already tank fairly close to guards. What you think does not matter anymore. I hope you enjoy your new game :smileywink:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gungo on <span class=date_text>09-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:52 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Gonzo in all of your posts, show me the ones where you have acually posted real facts and information instead of the same BS you post over and over again across a number of posts?</P> <P>If you call me lieing when i links to prove to you the facts and information behind my " false assumptions " then the only people lieing is the people who orginally post about the information to begin with, Moorgard being one i suspose, Fanelix being another, Gage being one also, hell even Nerill here is a liar.........:smileyindifferent: Are you calling them all liars Gonzo?</P> <P>Problem is Gonzo you have no leg to stand on, i tore you to peices in that other thread when you tried to spin the same old BS that we heard here 6 months ago, monks trade DPS for taunts, what a load of CRAP.</P> <P>" With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability " - Quote from Moorgard himself.</P> <P> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Don't worry gaige i basicaly ignore taemek now he always lies, uses false assumptions, half sentence miss quotes from spell combat changes, and name calling to try to prove a point never any actual factual data. He trys to compare things using multiple class skills showing one side of a skewed argument. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>see the problem w Taem is he doesn't actually play beta he is not even a gaurd or bruiser. I didn't post that link from noah for him to cry about, but airoguy asked me since he is nto on beta. I would think if Noah an actual raid leader and guild leader of FoH who is the only person on these boards that i can confirm tested raid content in beta is happy with the changes, they why is [Removed for Content] like taem crying (who plays a bezerker in gam btw). I play beta i beta buffed a gaurd and bruiser, i also play my toon there. I test group and solo content because thats all i can do. Taem reads numbers on boards and rehashes other people's opinion and pretends that he actual had his own thoughts. Sometimes i feel sory for Taem because of the way he is, then i realize ignorance is bliss.</DIV> <DIV>so once again for Taem since i know he has a comprehension problem. The Core Combat changes are done on beta. Brawlers already tank fairly close to guards. What you think does not matter anymore. I hope you enjoy your new game :smileywink:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:52 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>:smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>I had to have a real good chuckle out of that one, ahhhh i needed that Gonzo, all one has to do is go through my post history and see our talks together.........ROFL.</P> <P>If you test beta Gonzo why did you come here in the frist place saying you want balance when you already knew you had it even i knew you had it which is why i started so heavily on you to begin with, your BS theroy of plate class spike damage that makes a Guardian a Brawler is one of them......your reading comprehension lvl and here it is right here, ill post it for people to see so they can understand what we are talking about here :</P> <P>Here is the post in Question :</P> <HR> <P> Moorgard wrote:</P> <P>The round of changes currently on Test only deal with the defensive side of things. They won't go live without other changes that are coming.</P> <P>We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale.</P> <DIV><FONT color=#ffffff>With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Steve Danuser, a.k.a. Moorgard<BR>Game Designer, EverQuest II</P> <P></P> <HR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now here is Gonzos idea of what it means :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gungo wrote :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>" to me that says what i gain in dam arts you gained in the group hp buffs, group mitigation buffs, sheilding buffs etc  "</DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=15926&view=by_date_ascending&page=3" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=15926&view=by_date_ascending&page=3</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ANYWAYS Gungo, i think you made a big enough fool out of yourself on that thread, you failed to prove me wrong there, so you come try belittle me here, you really are a little man. Not one single post from you had any real facts or data, all of them purely opionative, nothing else. Nada, Nill, ZERO.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am truely done with you Gonzo from sesame street, its been fun man, but hey, you cant prove your claims like i can mine so you try attack my intelligence, lol, sigh.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>" With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. "</STRONG></DIV>

[Gungo]

Taem this last post you wrote could have not explained what i meant so beautifully.

[-Aonein-]

<P>Im still waiting for those posts i asked you for Gonzo, remeber, the ones where a dev states :</P> <P>" With fighters, damage potential is weighed against utility." or the one that says " With fighters, tanking ability is weighed against utility."</P> <P>When can i see them?</P>

[TheSummoned]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moskito wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>No Gonzo i was stating that the OP which is yours, which is a quote from Noah is hardly a parse, it isnt even a parse, where is the techincal infomation? Where is the screen shots of the parse used? Where is the screen shots of stats, group set up etc etc.</P> <P>That was my point, and Bruisers dont need a Haste buff when they have a 10% chance to proc 1000+ damage do they :</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Please dont spead wrong informations :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Our Defense Stance has NO proc.</P> <P>Our Offense Stance does. And the Mixed Stance, too.</P> <P>But read the Skill descritions carefully. The 1k Proc [you are reffering to] is a 10% proc chance IF primary and secondary slot is empty.</P> <P>That meand: NOT even one Bruiser will ever use the stances for the procs. You cant hit any named heroic, or a epic mob with bare fists. You get a "your weapon is not ...". Btw will you loose all benetits from both slots (mana regen, stats, procs, hp, power, whatever).</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL i even supply a screen shot of the Brusier stances and im spreading wrong information.......:smileyindifferent: i suppose it is misinformed information though because its still in beta / test and not on live yet....</P> <DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>By the way Moskito, im fully aware of the way they work. Does that mean that both your Offensive stance and your mixed Fire Stance are totally useless? </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV>All this bicering isn't moving either the warrior or the brawler class any further. Anyhow, maybe you didn't missinform in your own mind, but you DID leave out that ONE FACT for to take total advantage of this skill you must NOT use any weapons, thus making it sound worse for others not knowing this skill than it actually is... A 10% proc for 400 dmg isn't that much. I can get more CAs out for more damage while this procs once for, what 200-300 dmg with weapons? Having no weapons is useless against higher Tier mobs, because "the weapon you are using is not potent enough". BTW, I may not be on beta, but I have a character on test.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moskito wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>No Gonzo i was stating that the OP which is yours, which is a quote from Noah is hardly a parse, it isnt even a parse, where is the techincal infomation? Where is the screen shots of the parse used? Where is the screen shots of stats, group set up etc etc.</P> <P>That was my point, and Bruisers dont need a Haste buff when they have a 10% chance to proc 1000+ damage do they :</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Please dont spead wrong informations :smileyhappy:</P> <P>Our Defense Stance has NO proc.</P> <P>Our Offense Stance does. And the Mixed Stance, too.</P> <P>But read the Skill descritions carefully. The 1k Proc [you are reffering to] is a 10% proc chance IF primary and secondary slot is empty.</P> <P>That meand: NOT even one Bruiser will ever use the stances for the procs. You cant hit any named heroic, or a epic mob with bare fists. You get a "your weapon is not ...". Btw will you loose all benetits from both slots (mana regen, stats, procs, hp, power, whatever).</P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>LOL i even supply a screen shot of the Brusier stances and im spreading wrong information.......:smileyindifferent: i suppose it is misinformed information though because its still in beta / test and not on live yet....</P> <DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>By the way Moskito, im fully aware of the way they work. Does that mean that both your Offensive stance and your mixed Fire Stance are totally useless? </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </DIV></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV>All this bicering isn't moving either the warrior or the brawler class any further. Anyhow, maybe you didn't missinform in your own mind, but you DID leave out that ONE FACT for to take total advantage of this skill you must NOT use any weapons, thus making it sound worse for others not knowing this skill than it actually is... A 10% proc for 400 dmg isn't that much. I can get more CAs out for more damage while this procs once for, what 200-300 dmg with weapons? Having no weapons is useless against higher Tier mobs, because "the weapon you are using is not potent enough". BTW, I may not be on beta, but I have a character on test.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are most people mentally challenged in this game and have reading comprehensions of a grade 4 child or something or do people just chose to ignore half a post and just read the other half on purpose just to [Removed for Content] people off?</P> <P>I posted a <STRONG><U>SCREEN SHOT</U></STRONG> with what i said in that post, it clearly points out that you need to be using no weapons to get the 1000+ dmg proc OR you get 400 dmg proc with weapons equipped, or should i have posted a screen shot plus spelt it out?</P> <P>10% chance to proc 400 dmg not that much? Your kidding right? Along with the CA's you can burn out before this procs....lol clearly this person hasnt played a Guardian.</P> <P>I often wonder what it would be like to make a Bruiser / Monk a Guardian for a day, take away all there utility ( buffs and haste ) all there DPS and just let them do what Guards do. Then again, a small few would love it.</P> <P>By the way i play on test too, just not beta, but its not hard to know whats going on inside beta if you have friends in there playing it.</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>09-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:53 AM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Taem just because someone stopped arguing with you doesn't mean they lost the argument it means they have given up on you. Get use to that. At the moment i am done arguing with you that qoute you rehash only deals with the spell combat art revamp you misqoute it all the time out of context to prove your point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>Gungo said:</DIV> <DIV>see the problem w Taem is he doesn't actually play beta he is not even a gaurd or bruiser. I didn't post that link from noah for him to cry about, but airoguy asked me since he is nto on beta. I would think if Noah an actual raid leader and guild leader of FoH who is the only person on these boards that i can confirm tested raid content in beta is happy with the changes, they why is [Removed for Content] like taem crying (who plays a bezerker in gam btw). I play beta i beta buffed a gaurd and bruiser, i also play my toon there. I test group and solo content because thats all i can do. Taem reads numbers on boards and rehashes other people's opinion and pretends that he actual had his own thoughts. Sometimes i feel sory for Taem because of the way he is, then i realize ignorance is bliss.</DIV> <DIV>so once again for Taem since i know he has a comprehension problem. The Core Combat changes are done on beta. Brawlers already tank fairly close to guards. What you think does not matter anymore. I hope you enjoy your new game <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif" width=16 border=0></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tell me where did i state somethign worng here?</DIV> <DIV>Anyway like i said which you still fail to understand you are quote-ing devs post looking for thier intentions. I am happy where i am at beta (a tank like they intended) so are the guards that actually play beta. [Removed for Content] are you till here. Answer: starting arguments looking for people to respond to you becuase you have nothing better to do on a holiday. anyway you can respond to this and argue with yourslef all you want i am going to a picnic and beer-b-que</DIV></DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>You know your so right Gonzo i dont know what came over me.........:smileyindifferent: Like i said Gonzo all one has to do is go through my post histroy and look at our conversation, it speaks for itself and the people who replied to it, not including you.</P> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <P><STRONG>" With fighters, damage potential is weighed agaisnt tanking ability "</STRONG></P>

[TheSummoned]

<P>Alright, let's discuss the useful ness of our proc. Let's say a our Bruiser has knuckles equiped (that dual wield). Knuckles have a 1.8 delay. Now let's do the math a bit. </P> <P>(1.8 / 3) * 10% = 6%</P> <P>Now the proc is only half of what it says. It takes a bruiser about 17 swings on avarage to proc it. The bruiser will have a chance to proc in perfect conditions for up to 410 dmg. But those perfect conditions are almost non existant, so he will proc for about 300 damage every 17th swing in theory.</P> <P>Now a heavy hitter is a bit different. A flail has a 3.8 delay. Math time again...</P> <P>(3.8 / 3) * 10% = 12.6%</P> <P>While he can hit for about 200-300 damage every 8-9th swing in theory, he will do about 800-900 dmg with the flail alone and more...</P> <P>Does that seem a lot to you? It sure doesn't to me. Then again, like you say, I play a hardcore DPS bruiser that can kick a mobs [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in seconds and that it can't seem to be that much for me cause I never played a NO DPS guardian... :smileyindifferent: What I want is to see what the DPS of a bruiser is having nothing but treasured gear. All this fabled gear DPS is misleading for the avarage player with only adept 1 skills</P> <P>Yes I never played a guardian. It's just not me. When I made my bruiser I didn't expect to be a DPSer or tank, martial arts are just what I'm in to... I disregarded the lore they put up, I just made her...</P> <P>There is another stance we have, it's called quarrel. It has a 25% chance to increase hate for 140 and do up to 90 dmg. This one will proc for 2.5 times more than the fire stance and at the same time do about the same damage. It also leaves up space for you to cast other buffs and leaving the defence intact.</P> <DIV>This said, can any guardian on beta tell me how they are enjoying the changes? Taem said his very content with his berserker changes, so I won't doubt that he enjoys them playing on test and all...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many people will just look at the picture faintly. If I could, I would parse a guardian and a bruiser on beta in so many situations that your (including mine) head would explode. I want proof and not just some "look at this classes skills, mine is so nerfed compared to them". Well, I can say our group buff is completly nerfed compared to yours, but that would be pointless, cause I have other qualities some classes don't have and can make up for that loss.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TheSummoned wrote:<BR> <P>Alright, let's discuss the useful ness of our proc. Let's say a our Bruiser has knuckles equiped (that dual wield). Knuckles have a 1.8 delay. Now let's do the math a bit. </P> <P>(1.8 / 3) * 10% = 6%</P> <P>Now the proc is only half of what it says. It takes a bruiser about 17 swings on avarage to proc it. The bruiser will have a chance to proc in perfect conditions for up to 410 dmg. But those perfect conditions are almost non existant, so he will proc for about 300 damage every 17th swing in theory.</P> <P>Now a heavy hitter is a bit different. A flail has a 3.8 delay. Math time again...</P> <P>(3.8 / 3) * 10% = 12.6%</P> <P>While he can hit for about 200-300 damage every 8-9th swing in theory, he will do about 800-900 dmg with the flail alone and more...</P> <P>Does that seem a lot to you? It sure doesn't to me. Then again, like you say, I play a hardcore DPS bruiser that can kick a mobs [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] in seconds and that it can't seem to be that much for me cause I never played a NO DPS guardian... :smileyindifferent: What I want is to see what the DPS of a bruiser is having nothing but treasured gear. All this fabled gear DPS is misleading for the avarage player with only adept 1 skills</P> <P>Yes I never played a guardian. It's just not me. When I made my bruiser I didn't expect to be a DPSer or tank, martial arts are just what I'm in to... I disregarded the lore they put up, I just made her...</P> <P>There is another stance we have, it's called quarrel. It has a 25% chance to increase hate for 140 and do up to 90 dmg. This one will proc for 2.5 times more than the fire stance and at the same time do about the same damage. It also leaves up space for you to cast other buffs and leaving the defence intact.</P> <DIV>This said, can any guardian on beta tell me how they are enjoying the changes? Taem said his very content with his berserker changes, so I won't doubt that he enjoys them playing on test and all...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Many people will just look at the picture faintly. If I could, I would parse a guardian and a bruiser on beta in so many situations that your (including mine) head would explode. I want proof and not just some "look at this classes skills, mine is so nerfed compared to them". Well, I can say our group buff is completly nerfed compared to yours, but that would be pointless, cause I have other qualities some classes don't have and can make up for that loss.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Very excellent points Summonded thank you for not pretending you know, like some else i know....</P> <P>Im not sure why people wont run a simple parse using standard equipment they was copied over to Beta with, this way nothing is skewed.</P> <P>I personally am loving the changes, except maybe one or two, but i think ill live. :smileyhappy:</P>

[Airog]

<DIV>After going through this info, the parse isn't anywhere near technical enough, and doesn't answer any of my questions. What I want to know, is who is a better group tank and who is better at soloing? Like this, take, I dunno, 5 people and put the Guardian in the group, kill some stuff (all same level and Tier) useing differant stances, ect... then take Guardian out and monk in, repeat, see who wins out, then take Guard and Monk solo, try killing same level same Tier mobs, from grey through red, all tiers, see who is better, see if a monk can solo faster. My sneaking suspision is that if everybody gives it their best and the parse is not tainted the Monk will win out on both solo and groups, however I do not play Beta, so I can't say for sure, but this is what I would like to see some info on. WHO IS PREFFERRED FOR SOLOING AND GROUPS.</DIV>

[Airog]

Oh, and if Guard or Monk has more fabled gear, try and even it out, if the one who has more fabled happens to have some legendary saved to put it on, and might be nice to try differant weapon/shield combos, like, 2H, DW, 1Hw/shield, ect...

[-Aonein-]

<P>You know deep down the results Airo, you dont need a parser to tell you who is the better soloer / group tank. Group wise, personally just by looking at Monk / Bruiser parsers, id have to say they will be the better Group tanks because of their mixed stance they get which <STRONG><U>doesnt</U></STRONG> reduce anything in reguards to offensive skills such as crushing, slashing etc, it acually increases Deflection, increases Crushing and Ranged, Mitigation vs all damage and Mitigation vs mental / poison. </P> <P>The brusier one has a dmg proc of 400+ with a 10% chance and the monk one has a 30% haste increasement, they did use 5 concentration points but they use <STRONG><U>no</U></STRONG> con now, so now they can use their Mixed stance all the time and there other buffs on top of it, increased DPS, WIS, Self Haste, Group Haste etc etc with no decrease what so ever to offensive abilites not to mention other buffs that stack in a group from other class's.</P> <P>Where Plate class's on the other hand take a whooping hit to offensive skills by almost 6 lvls to increase there Defense / Mitigation vs all damage, thats a 6 lvl decrease to Crushing, Slashing, Peircing. Fight a mob that is 5 lvls higher then you and you are basically 11 lvls lower then it offensive wise if you are in Defensive mode where a Monk / Bruiser is accually not even effected by anything making him a much more desired tank because of DPS.</P> <P>This is what the choice in a group is panning out to be :</P> <P>Guardian = Group mitigation, Group defense, chance to absorb damage from others which in reality doesnt mean jack because only one person should be getting hit anyway, the tank, so the group mitigation and extra defense and chance to absorb damage is only really useful on raids, thats if the mob is doing AoE melee damage, using your damage absorbtion skills on a group in a raid on a mob that does AoE damage is just asking to be killed.......less offensive ability making you hit for less damage and miss more often due to defensive stance and lowest DPS utility. STA buff with minimal effect and a (1) 500 hp self buff.</P> <P>Monk = Group haste, Group DPS, chance to absorb damage from others but not as good as a Guard can, much higher avoidance with out the use of a shield being able to Dual weild / 2 hander much more effectively due to having a mixed stance that doesnt reduce any of there Defensive <STRONG><U>OR</U></STRONG> Offensive skills but acually increases them. Large Wisdom buff increases there resistance's to all spell damage. Higher offensive ability making them hit alot harder and alot more, Highest DPS utility.</P> <P>Brawlers are the only sub class that get a mixed stance that does not reduce any of there Defensive OR Offensive abilitys for the increase it does. Defensive and Offensive stances dont use concentration anymore, but im not sure if this one doesnt. Bruisers is the same but take out the haste comppnent and replace with a 10% chance to proc  200+ to 400+ damage.</P> <P><IMG src="http://img348.imageshack.us/img348/979/spiderstanceadept32ap.jpg"></P> <P>According to <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=20734" target=_blank><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>this</FONT></STRONG></A> post this is the best overall stance. Even if it still does cost 5 con.</P> <P>The difference in Mitigation and Avoidance between a Brawler and Guardian is ALOT closer now, a hell of alot closer. Plate class acually have around 30% avoidance ( NO Shield ) and 70% mitigation, Brawlers can get 75% avoidance and 60 - 65% mitigation not a problem at all. And gear doesnt mean jack no more because if you keep ontop of your gear these numbers will always stay the same, the only thing that plays a big difference in these numbers now is buff quaility, the higher the quaility, the higher the numbers.</P> <P>Experience should tell you when soloing a strong offense beats a strong defense, you can have all the mitigation / avoidance in the world but with no DPS you arent going to kill anything.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:07 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>The difference in Mitigation and Avoidance between a Brawler and Guardian is ALOT closer now, a hell of alot closer. Plate class acually have around 30% avoidance ( NO Shield ) and 70% mitigation, Brawlers can get 75% avoidance and 60 - 65% mitigation not a problem at all.  <FONT color=#ffff00>For stat comparisons to be fair, the plate classes need to have a shield equipped.</FONT></P> <P>And gear doesnt mean jack no more because if you keep ontop of your gear these numbers will always stay the same, the only thing that plays a big difference in these numbers now is buff quaility, the higher the quaility, the higher the numbers.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  On beta the tier of the armor grants more avoidance and mitigation.  A fabled piece with less agility will and can grant more avoidance than legendary or treasured with more agility, because of the tier.  Same with mitigation.</FONT></P> <P>Experience should tell you when soloing a strong offense beats a strong defense, you can have all the mitigation / avoidance in the world but with no DPS you arent going to kill anything.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Luckily, no class in this game hits for 0.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Spider Stance and Black Widow Stance still require 5 concentration on beta.  This may change to 3 or 4, but doubtful.<BR>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote: <P>And gear doesnt mean jack no more because if you keep ontop of your gear these numbers will always stay the same, the only thing that plays a big difference in these numbers now is buff quaility, the higher the quaility, the higher the numbers.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  On beta the tier of the armor grants more avoidance and mitigation.  A fabled piece with less agility will and can grant more avoidance than legendary or treasured with more agility, because of the tier.  Same with mitigation.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>With no colour con system, how will we know what tier items are? Or when you say Tier you mean quaility wise as in, Normal, Treasured, Legndary, Fabled and Mythical yes? Not in lvls like 10, 20, 30 etc etc?</P> <P>Also are you 100% sure that say for example that you have a T4 Fabled BP with 4 agility will offer more avoidance then a T5 Legendary BP with 14 agility? What about if the T4 Fabled BP has +1 parry and the T5 Legendary has +3 parry? Does it work the same? What about the damage bonus from STR and HP increasement from STA, do they work the same? </P> <P>So basically what you are saying is a T4 Fabled BP with +4 agi, +3 sta, +6 str will increase your stats according to what they increase, more then a T5 Legendary with +8 agi, +6 sta +12 str?</P> <P>Cant see how that is possible when stat increasements is hard coded. Unless they go and code every single peice of armor in the game to do a different thing depending on tier and quaility, thats a massive job just in itself.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>With no colour con system, how will we know what tier items are? Or when you say Tier you mean quaility wise as in, Normal, Treasured, Legndary, Fabled and Mythical yes? Not in lvls like 10, 20, 30 etc etc?</P> <P>Also are you 100% sure that say for example that you have a T4 Fabled BP with 4 agility will offer more avoidance then a T5 Legendary BP with 14 agility? What about if the T4 Fabled BP has +1 parry and the T5 Legendary has +3 parry? Does it work the same? What about the damage bonus from STR and HP increasement from STA, do they work the same?</P> <P>So basically what you are saying is a T4 Fabled BP with +4 agi, +3 sta, +6 str will increase your stats according to what they increase, more then a T5 Legendary with +8 agi, +6 sta +12 str?</P> <P>Cant see how that is possible when stat increasements is hard coded. Unless they go and code every single peice of armor in the game to do a different thing depending on tier and quaility, thats a massive job just in itself.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Sorry, I meant quality.  As in fabled, legendary, etc.</P> <P>I am 100% sure that higher quality loot gives an innate mitigation and avoidance bonus.  How much of one, I'm not sure of.  Jezekiel noticed it first, we tested it and then asked MG.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>-- Re: Avoidance question --</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>"Or more specificly, does different quality armors yield different avoidance modifieres?"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>Yes, tier affects both avoidance and mitigation.</FONT></P> <P>Since I'm not sure where the gap is, I can't say for sure that a fabled with 4agi would offer more avoidance than a legendary with 14agi, because there has to be a point where that doesn't hold true.</P> <P>All I do know is that if you have a fabled bp with 12agi and a legendary bp with 12agi, they will not offer the same avoidance.  That can be checked by removing a doll while wearing both and seeing the effect it has on avoidance.</P> <P>I wish I had more info, I apologize.</P> <P>I'm also unsure about STR/STA/WIS etc.  The disparity we noticed was with avoidance, and only that part was confirmed by MG.</P><p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 AM</span>

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>The difference in Mitigation and Avoidance between a Brawler and Guardian is ALOT closer now, a hell of alot closer. Plate class acually have around 30% avoidance ( NO Shield ) and 70% mitigation, Brawlers can get 75% avoidance and 60 - 65% mitigation not a problem at all.  <FONT color=#ffff00>For stat comparisons to be fair, the plate classes need to have a shield equipped.</FONT></P> <P>And gear doesnt mean jack no more because if you keep ontop of your gear these numbers will always stay the same, the only thing that plays a big difference in these numbers now is buff quaility, the higher the quaility, the higher the numbers.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  On beta the tier of the armor grants more avoidance and mitigation.  A fabled piece with less agility will and can grant more avoidance than legendary or treasured with more agility, because of the tier.  Same with mitigation.</FONT></P> <P>Experience should tell you when soloing a strong offense beats a strong defense, you can have all the mitigation / avoidance in the world but with no DPS you arent going to kill anything.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Luckily, no class in this game hits for 0.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Spider Stance and Black Widow Stance still require 5 concentration on beta.  This may change to 3 or 4, but doubtful.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Dont think all plate classes absolutely have to have a shield equiped to tank. Berzerker stance increases Defense and parry and Guardian stance increases Defense and Tower shield, so Zerker would have less of a difference if he didnt have have a shield equiped.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: nvm Guardian's stance increases parry instead of shield skill as well. But SK and Paladin increases Kite Shield skill. A shield is more required and helpful for tanking on Crusaders than it is on Warriors. Not saying it doesnt help <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> just that we have poor avoidance anyways heh.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sasaki Kojiro on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:53 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not saying it doesnt help <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> just that we have poor avoidance anyways heh.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, I'm not saying its absolutely required, just common place.  Besides shields do help with plate avoidance by a good margin, and only makes sense to have equipped when tanking since doing damage is not a concern.</P> <P>So to me, comparing mit/avoid numbers between classes only makes sense when both are setup in "defensive" mode.</P> <P>Now, a lot of players say the plates shouldn't have a shield equipped, because we don't.  But we have innate deflection and do not need one.  In fact we can't even use one anymore (we could for awhile a few patches after launch).  So when I'm tanking I'm using a 2h.  </P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>Its just my opinion really, but I think comparing shieldless plates to brawlers skews the numbers in the plates favor, because obviously their avoidance will be lower than when they are actually tanking.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 AM</span>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not saying it doesnt help <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> just that we have poor avoidance anyways heh.</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, I'm not saying its absolutely required, just common place.  Besides shields do help with plate avoidance by a good margin, and only makes sense to have equipped when tanking since doing damage is not a concern.</P> <P>So to me, comparing mit/avoid numbers between classes only makes sense when both are setup in "defensive" mode.</P> <P>Now, a lot of players say the plates shouldn't have a shield equipped, because we don't.  But we have innate deflection and do not need one.  In fact we can't even use one anymore (we could for awhile a few patches after launch).  So when I'm tanking I'm using a 2h.  </P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>Its just my opinion really, but I think comparing shieldless plates to brawlers skews the numbers in the plates favor, because obviously their avoidance will be lower than when they are actually tanking.<BR></P> <P>Message Edited by Gaige on <SPAN class=date_text>09-07-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:30 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yeah... but that is comparing them equally... doesnt seem to matter though... the plates stats are so pathedic u could wrap a freaking tank aroundhim and he would sitll only have 70% mit and since the tank is so big and heavy he would have only 10% avoidance...

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>No Gonzo i was stating that the OP which is yours, which is a quote from Noah is hardly a parse, it isnt even a parse, where is the techincal infomation? Where is the screen shots of the parse used? Where is the screen shots of stats, group set up etc etc.</P> <P>That was my point, and Bruisers dont need a Haste buff when they have a 10% chance to proc 1000+ damage do they :</P> <P> </P> <DIV> <P><IMG src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/nathan1337/master2s.jpg"></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>This is just there stances let alone other damage arts they get which can be all seen <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=7671&view=by_date_ascending&page=1" target=_blank><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>here</FONT></STRONG></A>.</SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>You are spot on with one thing you said, its not going to get any better then this.</SPAN></P></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>man all those spells seem so fun.. sux being a guard and having all boring spells... only thing we had was good tanking.. but now that its equal with less dps and no fun stances and such... makes me cry

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> -Aonein- wrote: <P>After the 9/02 changes on beta, Brawlers are sitting around 1200 atk and have self haste still, where Guards on the other hand are sitting at like 750 - 820 attack with no self haste or no self haste at all.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Please do not spread misinformation.  In that screenshot, I'm sitting at 1172 atk, self buffed, AT LVL 60, with t6 fabled weapons and all t6 master Is and 2s.  Every spell.  Those beta raid weapons are like 49.9 dr dual wield, they are ridiculous.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>how is that miss infvormation?? at 60 with t6 who cares guards are sitting there with 750-852 and no haste? give them all the amsters uw ant doesnt really matter

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Don't worry gaige i basicaly ignore taemek now he always lies, uses false assumptions, half sentence miss quotes from spell combat changes, and name calling to try to prove a point never any actual factual data. He trys to compare things using multiple class skills showing one side of a skewed argument. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>see the problem w Taem is he doesn't actually play beta he is not even a gaurd or bruiser. I didn't post that link from noah for him to cry about, but airoguy asked me since he is nto on beta. I would think if Noah an actual raid leader and guild leader of FoH who is the only person on these boards that i can confirm tested raid content in beta is happy with the changes, they why is [Removed for Content] like taem crying (who plays a bezerker in gam btw). I play beta i beta buffed a gaurd and bruiser, i also play my toon there. I test group and solo content because thats all i can do. Taem reads numbers on boards and rehashes other people's opinion and pretends that he actual had his own thoughts. Sometimes i feel sory for Taem because of the way he is, then i realize ignorance is bliss.</DIV> <DIV>so once again for Taem since i know he has a comprehension problem. The Core Combat changes are done on beta. Brawlers already tank fairly close to guards. What you think does not matter anymore. I hope you enjoy your new game :smileywink:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:52 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>he hasnt once.. he puts out data.. u are jsut on a relendless quest to become the most fun best dps and tanking fighter class

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> Don't worry gaige i basicaly ignore taemek now he always lies, uses false assumptions, half sentence miss quotes from spell combat changes, and name calling to try to prove a point never any actual factual data. He trys to compare things using multiple class skills showing one side of a skewed argument. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>see the problem w Taem is he doesn't actually play beta he is not even a gaurd or bruiser. I didn't post that link from noah for him to cry about, but airoguy asked me since he is nto on beta. I would think if Noah an actual raid leader and guild leader of FoH who is the only person on these boards that i can confirm tested raid content in beta is happy with the changes, they why is [Removed for Content] like taem crying (who plays a bezerker in gam btw). I play beta i beta buffed a gaurd and bruiser, i also play my toon there. I test group and solo content because thats all i can do. Taem reads numbers on boards and rehashes other people's opinion and pretends that he actual had his own thoughts. Sometimes i feel sory for Taem because of the way he is, then i realize ignorance is bliss.</DIV> <DIV>so once again for Taem since i know he has a comprehension problem. The Core Combat changes are done on beta. Brawlers already tank fairly close to guards. What you think does not matter anymore. I hope you enjoy your new game :smileywink:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Gungo on <SPAN class=date_text>09-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:52 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>but I am name calling u are an [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR><BR>man all those spells seem so fun.. sux being a guard and having all boring spells... only thing we had was good tanking.. but now that its equal with less dps and no fun stances and such... makes me cry <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Didn't you just get done saying you don't want any spells like that or utility?  You just want to tank?<BR></DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR><BR>man all those spells seem so fun.. sux being a guard and having all boring spells... only thing we had was good tanking.. but now that its equal with less dps and no fun stances and such... makes me cry <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Didn't you just get done saying you don't want any spells like that or utility?  You just want to tank?<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>well yeah... trust me man I wanted a bruiser or zerker as well cuase those classes seemed really fun... but mroe then that I jsut wanted to tank the best and people told me guards were the way to go for that... so I sacrifificed alot of the fun spells for tanking. and what makes me cry is we arent ssuch great tanks anymore... and really our lines are pretty dull... they woudl have to complletly wipe the guard slate clean to make them have I suppose more fun spells but again I did choose them for the tanking... and that is why I am upset

[Sasaki Koji]

<DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** Combat Changes ***<BR><BR></FONT>General changes:</STRONG><BR><FONT color=#66ff66><FONT color=#ff0033><STRONG>- Decreased in combat regen of health and power from 1% of max to a fixed value of 1pt / 10 levels (plus any granted from items/spells). <EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>thats harsh. 5pt regen at lvl50......</FONT></EM></STRONG><BR><STRONG>- The base mitigation and avoidance on armor has been reduced. <FONT color=#ffffcc><EM>again heh</EM></FONT></STRONG></FONT><BR></FONT>- Quality (Treasured, Legendary, Fabled, etc.) of armor no longer affects your chances to avoid attacks.<BR><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0033>- Accessories no longer have any physical mitigation. <EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>just stats now <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></EM><BR>- The base parry has been reduced from 20% to 10%. <EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>no comment...</FONT></EM><BR>- NPCs should progress more smoothly in difficulty from green through orange con.<BR>- Small Group, Heroic, and Epic NPCs will now do more damage. <EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>epics with one-shot attacks</FONT><FONT color=#ffffcc> again?</FONT></EM><BR>- The base mitigation value of kite and tower shields has been reduced to 10%. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffcc><EM>mitigation or avoidance??</EM></FONT></STRONG><BR>- The new level 50 to 60 abilities have been assigned their intended levels.<BR>- Charms should now function correctly. If the target cannot be charmed, the spell will not cast.<BR>- Beneficial maintained group spells and arts should now affect a greater area.<BR>- Pets can no longer attack NPCs that you cannot get to yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol, still want to bother using a shield? doesnt look too helpful now....</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sasaki Kojiro wrote:<BR> <DIV><STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** Combat Changes ***<BR><BR></FONT>General changes:</STRONG><BR><FONT color=#66ff66><FONT color=#ff0033><STRONG>- Decreased in combat regen of health and power from 1% of max to a fixed value of 1pt / 10 levels (plus any granted from items/spells). <EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>thats harsh. 5pt regen at lvl50......</FONT></EM></STRONG><BR><STRONG>- The base mitigation and avoidance on armor has been reduced. <FONT color=#ffffcc><EM>again heh</EM></FONT></STRONG></FONT><BR></FONT>- Quality (Treasured, Legendary, Fabled, etc.) of armor no longer affects your chances to avoid attacks.<BR><STRONG><FONT color=#ff0033>- Accessories no longer have any physical mitigation. <EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>just stats now <IMG height=16 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif" width=16 border=0></FONT></EM><BR>- The base parry has been reduced from 20% to 10%. <EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>no comment...</FONT></EM><BR>- NPCs should progress more smoothly in difficulty from green through orange con.<BR>- Small Group, Heroic, and Epic NPCs will now do more damage. <EM><FONT color=#ffffcc>epics with one-shot attacks</FONT><FONT color=#ffffcc> again?</FONT></EM><BR>- The base mitigation value of kite and tower shields has been reduced to 10%. </FONT><FONT color=#ffffcc><EM>mitigation or avoidance??</EM></FONT></STRONG><BR>- The new level 50 to 60 abilities have been assigned their intended levels.<BR>- Charms should now function correctly. If the target cannot be charmed, the spell will not cast.<BR>- Beneficial maintained group spells and arts should now affect a greater area.<BR>- Pets can no longer attack NPCs that you cannot get to yourself.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lol, still want to bother using a shield? doesnt look too helpful now....</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yeah sad but true tower shields were once like 25% I think? now a pathedic 10%... I suppose it goes under well its better then a hole int he head

[Airog]

<DIV>Any word on if they are gonna parse like I purposed? I know they are busy, but something like that would be EXTREMELY helpful.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<P>No point parsing anything because its changing daily, just like the last lot of changes people cant even solo anything to parse.</P> <P>Read <A href="http://www.eq2test.com/viewtopic.php?t=947" target=_blank><STRONG><FONT color=#ff3300>this</FONT></STRONG></A>.</P>