just in, monks have more HP then gaurdians [Archive]

TunaBoo

08-31-2005, 12:49 AM

/sigh Brawlers/Monks/Bruisers now have slightly higher base health and slightly lower base power than Warriors/Guardians/Berserkers. <div></div>

TunaBoo

08-31-2005, 12:53 AM

Oh and The base avoidance on tower and kite shields has been reduced from 20% to 15%. Not only are tower and kite shields identical in every way except look, they are back to being useless again. Why even seperate them? Why not just combine them in a new class called big_honking_shiled_that_is_a_waste_of_your_offhand _slot ? <div></div>

BritHawk

08-31-2005, 01:20 AM

This has got to be a joke. Is it April 1st?

zabor

08-31-2005, 01:23 AM

guardians aren't supposed to avoid. It's just another step towards making the tank classes equal.

TunaBoo

08-31-2005, 01:26 AM

Guardians are supposed to block not dodge. By all means take away some of our parry, but if a shield isn't blocking at least 25% of attacks it is a waste. <div></div>

zabor

08-31-2005, 01:27 AM

you wont need a shield anyways when you are doing DPS, which will happen more often in the future <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

TunaBoo

08-31-2005, 01:33 AM

Nah tank or nothing is our role in life. I think devs are letting all classes be able to tank okay, but only giving guardians suffucient taunts. /boggle <div></div>

Nazo

08-31-2005, 01:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote: Nah tank or nothing is our role in life. I think devs are letting all classes be able to tank okay, but only giving guardians suffucient taunts. /boggle <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> shhhh someone playing brawler might hear :smileyvery-happy: <HR> zaboron wrote: you wont need a shield anyways when you are doing DPS, which will happen more often in the future <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> Yes we just zoned out of Spirits because Guild Leaders wanted to recruit Brawlers since only they can MT now. They said they wanted to get all non-guilded Brawlers ASAP before other guilds.Message Edited by Nazowa on 08-30-2005 03:13 PM

Urglu

08-31-2005, 03:06 AM

Yet another nerf. Christ, just be done with it already, this revamp has been pure nerf on the Warriors (Serker and Guard), no other class should be allowed to even whisper a complaint.I'll say this SOE, this is your one shot so get it right, pull this crap again and I, and a lot of other people, will be leaving. I'll accept a MASSIVE screw up mandating such nerfs as a "mistake" this time, but if you do it again we will all know it is really just incompetence.

Wado

08-31-2005, 03:23 AM

They have more BASE Hps - with gear and self buffs we still come out ahead no doubt. <div></div>

TunaBoo

08-31-2005, 03:25 AM

Gear can buff the same HP for any class. Our self buffs are l;ike 350hp and 26 sta, really sad. A sta based monk should self buff within 100 or so hp of a guardian. (don't know their exact buffs) <div></div>

Wado

08-31-2005, 03:42 AM

Not many monks are geared for Sta though. <div></div>

-Aonein-

08-31-2005, 04:30 AM

STA does hardly anything for HP now, it scales more with lvls.

Gaige

08-31-2005, 06:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wadoon wrote: Not many monks are geared for Sta though. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I am, although in my newest pics I did all agility since MG wanted to stress the avoidance numbers. We were raid testing a few mins ago and me in my off stance, all str with negatives to defense and a mix of t5 and t6 gear still had almost a 10% lead on avoidance over Noah. But then again group buffs aren't working so who knows. But Tuna we don't get buffs to STA. Food, rings, potions and traits are all the sta besides gear a monk can hope for.

TunaBoo

08-31-2005, 07:42 AM

So we get 1 sta buff for like 26 sta... 26 sta under the current rules on beta is like 104 hp. <div></div>

Moski

08-31-2005, 08:37 AM

Guardians can buf STA and still have a 550 (Master2) HP Group Buff. No doubt they will still be in MT Group :smileyhappy:

Corv

08-31-2005, 10:51 AM

They've basically thrown brawlers a bone. The revamp hasn't really gone the way brawlers wanted. They've lost a lot of DPS and gained some tanking ability in return, but not enough to significantly change their role in a raid environment. A lot of brawlers are understandably peeved. A particularily vocal group has been screaming for higher base HP over on the combat changes board, and apparently somebody listened. Significantly higher base HP (read: enough to soak up Nil's and Ice Comets that would one-shot a plate-tank) would certainly make them preferred MT's against mobs that cast those spells. Heck, it'd be enough to soak up almost any damage spike so they'd be preferred MT's all the time! Clearly that would be unbalanced. Slightly higher base HP is what they got however, and that won't change a darned thing. Most guardians already know that the rate you take damage is more important than the size of your HP pool in most fights. (i.e. If you can trade HP away for mitigation, do it.) Brawlers will be just as unhappy after the novelty of having the biggest HP numbers wears off. Despite the fact that this change will have little to no effect, I feel it is bad for the game. EQ2 is a game where some classes have specialized in one thing. Unlike other tanks, Guardians have no fancy kicks, moves, heals, high DPS, feign death, etc.. They just tank. The whole player base knows they're just walking slabs of meat wrapped in tinfoil. Conceptually, the class that specializes in standing in front of a mob and getting beat on should have the most health. Logically, people know that someone who specializes in prancing about nimbly is not going to be able to take as much punishment as somebody who specializes in standing there and getting smacked around. By subverting this expectation Sony has added yet another layer of illogic to a combat system already rife with self-inconsistencies, and for what? They've [Removed for Content] off one class to please another and compromised the logic of their combat system over a trifle that will have little to no impact on gameplay. It's a bad move. <div></div>

Ragrax

08-31-2005, 11:03 AM

So now a monk - has invisibility, - has feign death, - has considerably higher dps than a guardian, - has avoidance that works in all directions, - is not dependant on a shield, - can heal himself and others (on a high hp tank, like now himself, lol, one of the highest instant heals in game), - has several stiffle attacks (at least on live, not sure in beta), - is not that much dependant on gear as plate tanks, - is most probabaly a better soloer (at least xp / time, but probably also on hard mobs) - even gets higher hitpoints than the most defensive plate tank (which I have never heard in a another game before). Highest base hp is something like the holy grail of warriors as ar as I know. Especially for guardians that do not raid this seems extremely unbalanced compared to the monk. It seems to me that either the implementation of the archetype system is very unbalanced or maybe the system is inherently, besides not being that much fun compared to good old eq1 style classes.

Wasuna

08-31-2005, 11:45 AM

Take all the toys other classes have away and give them an extra taunt. Tne we are even. Until they add utility to Guardians while they reduce our tanking ability I will not be happy. TAKE UTILITY AWAY FROM ALL OR GIVE SOME TO GUARDIANS.

sylvo

08-31-2005, 12:21 PM

I dont mean to be rude but ... Is someone taking the [Removed for Content] ? If this goes live I simply wont be able to find words to express how apalling it would be. Farhane United Kingdoms Guk <div></div>

RafaelSmith

08-31-2005, 03:56 PM

Geez it just goes from bad to worse. Im sorry but certain "MMO universal constants" just cant be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed with....Warrior HP naked, clothed, buffed, not buffed should be greater than anyone else period. And the shield thing is just plain stupid....its like giving 2H weapons the same dmg rating as a DW and saying that weapons are now balanced. <div></div>

Tro

08-31-2005, 04:17 PM

This is getting f'ing stupid.. Now they are screwing with shields? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] this [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].... What the frig is next?

Colossaltitan

08-31-2005, 04:59 PM

<DIV>Buffing out HP has always been the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] measuring game on Oggok, and I'm sure other servers. How will it feel when a Monk runs up after your done buffing and he has almost/the same HP as you. And, making shields basically worthless to use as well. Lovely!</DIV> <DIV>Plus mitigation cap inc soon, ..................Brawlers MT for the win! </DIV>Message Edited by Colossaltitan on 08-31-2005 09:01 AM

Colossaltitan

08-31-2005, 05:00 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ragrax wrote: So now a monk - has invisibility, - has feign death, - has group feign death - has considerably higher dps than a guardian, - has avoidance that works in all directions, - is not dependant on a shield, - can heal himself and others (on a high hp tank, like now himself, lol, one of the highest instant heals in game), - has several stiffle attacks (at least on live, not sure in beta), - is not that much dependant on gear as plate tanks, - is most probabaly a better soloer (at least xp / time, but probably also on hard mobs) - even gets higher hitpoints than the most defensive plate tank (which I have never heard in a another game before). Highest base hp is something like the holy grail of warriors as ar as I know. Especially for guardians that do not raid this seems extremely unbalanced compared to the monk. It seems to me that either the implementation of the archetype system is very unbalanced or maybe the system is inherently, besides not being that much fun compared to good old eq1 style classes. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Can't forget their latest toy.

Dovifat

08-31-2005, 05:31 PM

Tell me, how many of you have actually seen the new numbers yet ? Might wanna hold the whining until you actually know what you'r talking about. <div></div>

Colossaltitan

08-31-2005, 05:41 PM

Erhm, well the person who made the post is on test <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Message Edited by Colossaltitan on 08-31-2005 09:42 AM

Shizzirri

08-31-2005, 06:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Colossaltitan wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ragrax wrote: So now a monk - has invisibility, - has feign death, - has group feign death - has considerably higher dps than a guardian, - has avoidance that works in all directions, - is not dependant on a shield, - can heal himself and others (on a high hp tank, like now himself, lol, one of the highest instant heals in game), - has several stiffle attacks (at least on live, not sure in beta), - is not that much dependant on gear as plate tanks, - is most probabaly a better soloer (at least xp / time, but probably also on hard mobs) - even gets higher hitpoints than the most defensive plate tank (which I have never heard in a another game before). Highest base hp is something like the holy grail of warriors as ar as I know. Especially for guardians that do not raid this seems extremely unbalanced compared to the monk. It seems to me that either the implementation of the archetype system is very unbalanced or maybe the system is inherently, besides not being that much fun compared to good old eq1 style classes. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Can't forget their latest toy. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Oh and don't forget they can use Great Hammer weapons which include the ancient combine great flail and the royal great flail which equipping would probably increase their avoidance another 4% now is that realistic? Still, give them all the hitpoints they want that 30% mitigation or whatever they got will still cause them to get one shotted by an orange triple up epic encounter.

RafaelSmith

08-31-2005, 08:49 PM

<blockquote><hr>Dovifat wrote:Tell me, how many of you have actually seen the new numbers yet ? Might wanna hold the whining until you actually know what you'r talking about. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Who cares what the numbers end up. The patch note is pretty clear....its talking about BASE health...not buffed, not after gear...BASE.... Brawlers having higher BASE health than Warriors is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed up. The shield thing is just so stupid its not even worth thinking about. Anyone that looks at a Kite shield next to a Tower can see that the two should not have equal base stats.<div></div>

Vulking

08-31-2005, 09:52 PM

I have long since quit giving a flying f*ck-in sh*t what they do to us guards. The hp and shield changes are just icing on the sh*t pile. I have re-rolled and started playing what has to be the worst class in the game in hopes that they can't screw it up anymore. a mystic. Heh, and considering i don't know how to play a healer, i can only get better right? Message Edited by Hammarus on 08-31-2005 12:55 PM

Tro

08-31-2005, 10:10 PM

I have always been a bit apprehensive about what they are doing to us Guardians and up until now have given SoE the benefit of the doubt and kept with the notion that "Ah it can't be all that bad" but now with the most recent changes I am hearing about, I am convinced they are f'ing screwing us. We are taking it up the [Removed for Content] plain and simple.. To SoE: If these recent changes go live all I can say is You people are f'ing this game up to no end... Get a [Removed for Content] clue. Pull your f'ing heads outta your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and fix this!! You clowns never cease to amaze me with your unbelievably f'ing dumb decision making.. This is getting [Removed for Content] ridiculous.. /Rant off

Shizzirri

08-31-2005, 10:18 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Trook wrote: I have always been a bit apprehensive about what they are doing to us Guardians and up until now have given SoE the benefit of the doubt and kept with the notion that "Ah it can't be all that bad" but now with the most recent changes I am hearing about, I am convinced they are f'ing screwing us. We are taking it up the [Removed for Content] plain and simple.. To SoE: If these recent changes go live all I can say is You people are f'ing this game up to no end... Get a [Removed for Content] clue. Pull your f'ing heads outta your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and fix this!! You clowns never cease to amaze me with your unbelievably f'ing dumb decision making.. This is getting [Removed for Content] ridiculous.. /Rant off <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Then make 5000 making suggestions on how to fix it... The kite/tower shield thing for example explain to me how a shield that's bigger in size has the same blocking factor as a smaller kite shield...And actually in the old final fantasy games the monk classes did have more hp's than the warriors, but I do remember those monks getting pwn'ed on a regular basis and I expect the same thing to happen to them here on the tougher yellow/orange mobs... So if I decide to wear all light armor can I have 70% avoidance to since that heavy armor won't be slowing me down anymore?

JNewby

08-31-2005, 10:29 PM

So wait... let me get this straight... if I do not buy the expansion... will I as a guardian get the hardcore nerf? or can I jsut not buy it and live in happy land where guardians are a beloved class?

RafaelSmith

08-31-2005, 11:00 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:So wait... let me get this straight... if I do not buy the expansion... will I as a guardian get the hardcore nerf? or can I jsut not buy it and live in happy land where guardians are a beloved class? <div></div><hr></blockquote> Nope your gonna get [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed over regardless...no kiss beforehand...no lube...just bend over and take it. Oh and no smoke afterwards =P <div></div>Message Edited by RafaelSmith on 08-31-2005 01:43 PM

JNewby

08-31-2005, 11:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote: So wait... let me get this straight... if I do not buy the expansion... will I as a guardian get the hardcore nerf? or can I jsut not buy it and live in happy land where guardians are a beloved class? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Nope your gonna get [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ed over regardless...no kiss beforehand...no lube...just bend over and take it. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> ahh well that makes me sad... hey maybe we can be uber dps now? eh

Dfoley3

08-31-2005, 11:37 PM

<DIV> So now a monk - has invisibility, ---- lvl 52 ish --lasts less then 1 min cause of constant power drain and at mast1 its lvl 51 invis (same as a 40 swash) - has feign death, - - has group feign death ---- ok ur clueless here, this is a faction spell for 1, and for 2 the fail check on it is independant for every group member and only about 50% of the time does more then 3 members all get fd - has considerably higher dps than a guardian,---auto atk is the same, most of our dmg atks where cut in 1/3 so i assume ur talking about in live otherwise your clueless again - has avoidance that works in all directions, ---nice considering we only hve 12% more then a heavy armor tank with a shield - is not dependant on a shield, ---we have an inate one, and are dependant on the weapons we use, to say otherwise is a lie and shows you have clue about minimizing dmg while tanking - can heal himself and others (on a high hp tank, like now himself, lol, one of the highest instant heals in game), ---3 min timer, stunable, stifleable, 30% heal (just facts i personaly think its not as great as bruisers 90 sec self heal for 40-50%) - has several stiffle attacks (at least on live, not sure in beta),---live we have 1 stifle that is 100% to dmg and has a duration of 20 sec, but it rarely lasts longer then 0.1 on live...beta we have 2 both are 10 sec duration stifles. - is not that much dependant on gear as plate tanks, --- ok now i know ur a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. having 1000 less mitigation in a comparison of a fully fabled guard to monk is huge, any monk wearing vla while tanking is currently hurting priests more then anyone. - is most probabaly a better soloer (at least xp / time, but probably also on hard mobs)---im pretty sure tuna can tell u that an guard with a brain can set up an exp group that will rock any other exp group in the game, simply put he needs less heals, is less dependant on the quality of his priests, and as far as solo goes, its how you play the class, i can throw up offense stance and die 3/4 tries or i can throw up defense stance and die 0% of the time. sure one kills faster, but one has debt - even gets higher hitpoints than the most defensive plate tank (which I have never heard in a another game before). Highest base hp is something like the holy grail of warriors as ar as I know.----- ok uve obviously never played any other games. AS EXAMPLE- monks in final fantasy (online and offline) have ALWAYS been the high hp characters, simply because their armor makes it so they take full dmg more often and thus the need to have a higher hp. guards can add 15% avoidance with 1 item can self buff defense more then any class can add more mitigation and hp then any fighter have roughly 160% of the mitigation of a brawler have only 12% less avoidance then a brawler has more taunts then brawlers, and more abilities to increase tanking skills has a body clone to take a hit or two for the has a shield skill to take a hit or 2 for them (i know these are both faction spells but just adding em in rerfrence to group fd) can use ANY weapon in the game isnt limited in the department of fabled slashers or piercers (go find some monk useable ones and tell me how many there are compared to the amount of warrior useable ones) isnt limited in the department of fabled armor ( compare the number of suits of fabled heavy to suits of fabled light) </DIV>

TunaBoo

08-31-2005, 11:43 PM

Raijen, its not a faction spell.. no such thing. Those experimental spells are going to be got somehow, but NOT through factions. In any case, monk tanking and DPS are both looking sucky <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

JNewby

08-31-2005, 11:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> guards can add 15% avoidance with 1 item can self buff defense more then any class can add more mitigation and hp then any fighter have roughly 160% of the mitigation of a brawler have only 12% less avoidance then a brawler has more taunts then brawlers, and more abilities to increase tanking skills has a body clone to take a hit or two for the has a shield skill to take a hit or 2 for them (i know these are both faction spells but just adding em in rerfrence to group fd) can use ANY weapon in the game isnt limited in the department of fabled slashers or piercers (go find some monk useable ones and tell me how many there are compared to the amount of warrior useable ones) isnt limited in the department of fabled armor ( compare the number of suits of fabled heavy to suits of fabled light) </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>The self buffs are out the window we can buff hp like 385 and sta 24 or something... WOW really good buffs.. and yes we HAVE to have a shield for 15% unlike monks who dont ...we CANT avoid from any dircetion so effectifly our avoidance is 1/4 as good as monks hrm any weapon in the game? grat to bad it has to be one handed.. and tuants are no good if yer dead...

JNewby

08-31-2005, 11:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote: Raijen, its not a faction spell.. no such thing. Those experimental spells are going to be got somehow, but NOT through factions. In any case, monk tanking and DPS are both looking sucky <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Now that is a total bummer the only thing remotly useful was maybe that clone thing.. as dumb as it is... it was only buff we have gotten

Dfoley3

08-31-2005, 11:57 PM

see thats the kidna honesty i like! least tuna knows monks have no real dps, and he sure as hell doesnt call it utility ! o and because they nerfed my rating system eat this tuna * _ _ _ _ One stared u ! farpowned

Colossaltitan

09-01-2005, 12:03 AM

guardians can't use any wep in the game u noob <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

Gaige

09-01-2005, 12:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: Oh and don't forget they can use Great Hammer weapons which include the ancient combine great flail and the royal great flail which equipping would probably increase their avoidance another 4% now is that realistic? Still, give them all the hitpoints they want that 30% mitigation or whatever they got will still cause them to get one shotted by an orange triple up epic encounter. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For one: PLEASE learn to quit talking when you don't know [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] you are talking about. Its quite annoying. The ACGF does not raise my avoidance by 4%, it raises it by .3%. That's POINT 3 %. Also, although I've seen you ranting about it a few times, I fail to see how monks using great hammers is unrealistic. If anything, it makes total sense. 2h weapon, slow, with a heal on it. Sounds like a tank weapon. Who tanks two handed? MONKS/BRUISERS!! Who has self haste and group haste to help ease the pain of the delay? MONKS/BRUISERS!! Wow, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it makes sense. Ah here we go with your flawed "mitigation" is king logic. No worries, I explained to you how we are all just avoidance tanks in the other thread. I'm sure you'll have to read it a few times to understand it, but you'll catch on eventually. Besides, def buffed and tanking I'm normally around 50mit/73 avoid on beta anyway, and changes are still incoming. <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: Then make 5000 making suggestions on how to fix it... The kite/tower shield thing for example explain to me how a shield that's bigger in size has the same blocking factor as a smaller kite shield...And actually in the old final fantasy games the monk classes did have more hp's than the warriors, but I do remember those monks getting pwn'ed on a regular basis and I expect the same thing to happen to them here on the tougher yellow/orange mobs... So if I decide to wear all light armor can I have 70% avoidance to since that heavy armor won't be slowing me down anymore? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Awwww <3 Once again you contribute each and every change to me. You think I'm uber and have pull. How sweet of you sir. Inaccurate, but sweet. The kite/tower shield thing doesn't concern me. In my opinion they can make tower shields block 25% all they want... if they lower your base avoidance by half or more. Sorry, I'm pretty sure DoF loot will be like Brutal and Acts, since same guy is itemizing DoF and beyond. Class specific and no trade! No light armor for you. Booo. You're already an avoidance tank, now you want to dress like one. Maybe you should reroll, monk envy is an ugly thing. </DIV>Message Edited by Gaige on 08-31-2005 01:48 PM

JNewby

09-01-2005, 12:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: Oh and don't forget they can use Great Hammer weapons which include the ancient combine great flail and the royal great flail which equipping would probably increase their avoidance another 4% now is that realistic? Still, give them all the hitpoints they want that 30% mitigation or whatever they got will still cause them to get one shotted by an orange triple up epic encounter. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For one: PLEASE learn to quit talking when you don't know [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] you are talking about. Its quite annoying. The ACGF does not raise my avoidance by 4%, it raises it by .3%. That's POINT 3 %. Also, although I've seen you ranting about it a few times, I fail to see how monks using great hammers is unrealistic. If anything, it makes total sense. 2h weapon, slow, with a heal on it. Sounds like a tank weapon. Who tanks two handed? MONKS/BRUISERS!! Who has self haste and group haste to help ease the pain of the delay? MONKS/BRUISERS!! Wow, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it makes sense. Ah here we go with your flawed "mitigation" is king logic. No worries, I explained to you how we are all just avoidance tanks in the other thread. I'm sure you'll have to read it a few times to understand it, but you'll catch on eventually. Besides, def buffed and tanking I'm normally around 50mit/73 avoid on beta anyway, and changes are still incoming. <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: Then make 5000 making suggestions on how to fix it... The kite/tower shield thing for example explain to me how a shield that's bigger in size has the same blocking factor as a smaller kite shield...And actually in the old final fantasy games the monk classes did have more hp's than the warriors, but I do remember those monks getting pwn'ed on a regular basis and I expect the same thing to happen to them here on the tougher yellow/orange mobs... So if I decide to wear all light armor can I have 70% avoidance to since that heavy armor won't be slowing me down anymore? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Awwww <3 Once again you contribute each and every change to me. You think I'm uber and have pull. How sweet of you sir. Inaccurate, but sweet. The kite/tower shield thing doesn't concern me. In my opinion they can make tower shields block 25% all they want... if they lower your base avoidance by half or more. Sorry, I'm pretty sure DoF loot will be like Brutal and Acts, since same guy is itemizing DoF and beyond. Class specific and no trade! No light armor for you. Booo. You're already an avoidance tank, now you want to dress like one. Maybe you should reroll, monk envy is an ugly thing. </DIV> Message Edited by Gaige on 08-31-2005 01:48 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> by changes you mean more monk buffs right? also seems you are a mit tank now gaige... I think nerf is in order.. you are supost to avoid not mit... and man gaige yer kinda a jerk Message Edited by JNewby on 08-31-2005 01:52 PM

RafaelSmith

09-01-2005, 12:57 AM

<blockquote><hr>JNewby wrote:<div></div> and man gaige yer kinda a jerk <div></div>Message Edited by JNewby on 08-31-2005 01:52 PM<hr></blockquote> Kinda? =P <div></div>

Gaige

09-01-2005, 01:02 AM

<DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote: and man gaige yer kinda a jerk <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Opinions vary. I do have less tolerance for certain individuals who have made the same compliants, cop outs and excuses for nine months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Who then have the audacity to try to pin everything negative that happens to their class on my post count.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry if I'm coming off abrupt, I'm just annoyed that even after all these months some people can't think of anything to say so they copy/paste arguements from forever ago. </DIV>

Shizzirri

09-01-2005, 04:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: Oh and don't forget they can use Great Hammer weapons which include the ancient combine great flail and the royal great flail which equipping would probably increase their avoidance another 4% now is that realistic? Still, give them all the hitpoints they want that 30% mitigation or whatever they got will still cause them to get one shotted by an orange triple up epic encounter. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> For one: PLEASE learn to quit talking when you don't know [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] you are talking about. Its quite annoying. The ACGF does not raise my avoidance by 4%, it raises it by .3%. That's POINT 3 %. Also, although I've seen you ranting about it a few times, I fail to see how monks using great hammers is unrealistic. If anything, it makes total sense. 2h weapon, slow, with a heal on it. Sounds like a tank weapon. Who tanks two handed? MONKS/BRUISERS!! Who has self haste and group haste to help ease the pain of the delay? MONKS/BRUISERS!! Wow, [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it makes sense. Ah here we go with your flawed "mitigation" is king logic. No worries, I explained to you how we are all just avoidance tanks in the other thread. I'm sure you'll have to read it a few times to understand it, but you'll catch on eventually. Besides, def buffed and tanking I'm normally around 50mit/73 avoid on beta anyway, and changes are still incoming. <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: Then make 5000 making suggestions on how to fix it... The kite/tower shield thing for example explain to me how a shield that's bigger in size has the same blocking factor as a smaller kite shield...And actually in the old final fantasy games the monk classes did have more hp's than the warriors, but I do remember those monks getting pwn'ed on a regular basis and I expect the same thing to happen to them here on the tougher yellow/orange mobs... So if I decide to wear all light armor can I have 70% avoidance to since that heavy armor won't be slowing me down anymore? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Awwww <3 Once again you contribute each and every change to me. You think I'm uber and have pull. How sweet of you sir. Inaccurate, but sweet. The kite/tower shield thing doesn't concern me. In my opinion they can make tower shields block 25% all they want... if they lower your base avoidance by half or more. Sorry, I'm pretty sure DoF loot will be like Brutal and Acts, since same guy is itemizing DoF and beyond. Class specific and no trade! No light armor for you. Booo. You're already an avoidance tank, now you want to dress like one. Maybe you should reroll, monk envy is an ugly thing. </DIV> Message Edited by Gaige on 08-31-2005 01:48 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Hmm how kind of you and you say you never flame people in here, but seroiusly you pride yourself on high avoidance, yet how does a flail work...Lets see you swing it around your head gain momentum then lunge it at your enemy, and your saying you should have the same avoidance while doing this, according to you, you physically train yourself to beable to avoid more attacks, but lunging around a heavy weapon like a great flail magically gives you a slight increase in your ability to avoid attacks (mainly the addition to your parry skill). Now explain to me how you can do this sumersault/run circles around the mob routine to me with such a gigantic two handed weapon since your so obsessed with the 500lb armor argument. Just because you tank with a 2 handed weapon doesn't mean you should get every crush one in the game... Its odd someone comes up with a somewhat reasonable argument about monks and you walk all over them just like you walk all over guardians for complaining to you because you want us nerfed, while some of your points are taken way to far I have agreed with some of them in the past... You fail to recognize the contributions other classes make to getting a guardian's avoidance so high, its not just us. But what do I know I'm an avoidance tank

AwesomeSau

09-01-2005, 09:28 AM

<DIV>I've got it! Maybe SOE should just leave the system as it is until they figure out what it is that they want each class to be! Monks and Bruisers are DPS. I don't really agree with the concept of them tanking, especially better than a heavily armed Guardian. It's usually not their role, and doesn't make sense to me. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I actually agree with the monks weilding heavy weapons as unrealistic. They're masters of the mind and body. They're meant for light weapons and bare fisted combat because they can attack more accurately with them. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case, I just want Guardians to stop being nerfed... Why our shields!? =(</DIV>

Gaige

09-01-2005, 10:01 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: You fail to recognize the contributions other classes make to getting a guardian's avoidance so high, its not just us. But what do I know I'm an avoidance tank <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> No, I do not fail to see that. But it is why I say you guys should start off with super low avoidance, since at no fault of your own you will be gaining it, sometimes even more than we can gain. Besides, I've been wanting to get some deflection buffs added to other classes anyway, since the parry change was supposedly to limit plate avoidance while "deflection has become much more buffable". Even though there are like 3 or 4 buffs to deflection that I can think of, and monks have them all. (Two of which are our stances). As for the flail arguement, /shrug. I've seen kung-fu and martial artist type people use 3 part staffs and numerous other big and clunky two hand weapons and fight deftly, so I don't see your huge problem with us using great hammers. But you are more than entitled to your own opinion. Like I said the ACGF only gives me .3% avoidance anyway, from its +8 parry. I like it a lot more for its heal and resists.

sylvo

09-01-2005, 12:07 PM

Not that this thread is getting off topic or anything but its still crap that monks are getting higher base HP's than guardians :p Farhane United Kingdoms Guk <div></div>

MeridianR

09-01-2005, 04:12 PM

<blockquote><hr>sylvore wrote:Not that this thread is getting off topic or anything but its still crap that monks are getting higher base HP's than guardians :p Farhane United Kingdoms Guk <div></div><hr></blockquote>Everyone get's higher HP then Paladins. (Waits for the, but you can heal argument to be replayed 300X's)<div></div>

sylvo

09-01-2005, 04:20 PM

Nah the reason for that is that no-one likes paladins - now shoo ! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> P.s. REZ MEH ! <div></div>

MeridianR

09-01-2005, 04:29 PM

<blockquote><hr>sylvore wrote:Nah the reason for that is that no-one likes paladins - now shoo ! <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> P.s. REZ MEH ! <div></div><hr></blockquote>That response gets: ***** <div></div>

Axhine

09-01-2005, 04:49 PM

/sigh this is a bunch of crap I swear please screw the guardian class even more thanks.

Sasaki Koji

09-01-2005, 05:08 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moskito wrote: Guardians can buf STA and still have a 550 (Master2) HP Group Buff. No doubt they will still be in MT Group :smileyhappy: <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> So true. Even tho guards can buf hp up so very high, the only buff ive seen that isnt group is the self sta buff. So whatever's in the guardians group will be up closer to the guardians HP lvl.

a6eaq

09-01-2005, 05:49 PM

All I can say is (sing this to the Mickey Mouse theme song by the way) F U C, K E D , A G A I N , F'D AGAIN! F'D AGAIN! And if it gets umm edited, spell the words f'd again and sing them to the mickey mouse theme song. This should be our new theme song! F'd Again! F'd Again! Whenever we are happy we get F'd Agian!:smileysad::smileysad::smileysad: Devs, has that one remaining brain cell you have cumulatively stopped spinning in those totally empty [Removed for Content]-ergasture brain cases of yours??????? I gave feedback in the beginning about your total absence of knowledge about medievil weapons, i.e. Flamberes being1h piercing when they were 2h crushing as well as claymores and I am not saying this to get tons of replies saying no they are slashing because big swords CRUSHED more than they cut, but why do you think the Romans used Tower shields vice Kite/round shields. Oh yeah, it is because tower shields looked badass right? They protect more! The Roman Tortus(sp) was a formation that was practically invulnerable. Now you pull some stupid BS by nerfing the hell outta them! All so non-traditional tanking class will be more EQUAL! Someone give these idiots a [Removed for Content] test! I am sure the will pop for crack because their heads are burried in someones [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]! Imagine for a second a raid and the Vaguard wearing warriors and crusaders are nowhere to be seen, who is tanking Vox.... Gage and a bunch of leather clad brawlers because they are equal if not more versitile than the other 4 sub-classes. WAY TO GO SOE! You have managed to totally [Removed for Content] this game if this goes live in the current configuration. BOHICA! (Bend Over Here It Comes Again) <DIV>No I am not mad...</DIV>

RafaelSmith

09-01-2005, 06:27 PM

<blockquote><hr>sylvore wrote:Not that this thread is getting off topic or anything but its still crap that monks are getting higher base HP's than guardians :p Farhane United Kingdoms Guk <div></div><hr></blockquote> Yep pure crap<div></div>

Armeng

09-01-2005, 07:31 PM

dparker7

09-01-2005, 08:34 PM

<DIV>What I find amusing is the devs have repeatedly said that these changes are to make the game more fun and that the current game is broken. What I cant understand, is if the game was no fun and monks have been completely broken, why is Gage still playing? Why were the rest of us playing? Why, if I found the current game fun, would I continue to play the game after the changes? Is this, infact, Everquest 3?</DIV>

sylvo

09-01-2005, 09:12 PM

They could give monks the ability to wear Plate armor, merge the two classes and call it a "monkian" - and life would be good and the birds in the trees would sing and baby jebus would cry no more. <div></div>

Gaige

09-01-2005, 10:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> a6eaq wrote: Imagine for a second a raid and the Vaguard wearing warriors and crusaders are nowhere to be seen, who is tanking Vox.... Gage and a bunch of leather clad brawlers because they are equal if not more versitile than the other 4 sub-classes. WAY TO GO SOE! You have managed to totally [Removed for Content] this game if this goes live in the current configuration. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Yeah, I mean watching a group of monks tank an Ice Dragon is so much more unrealistic than watching a single warrior in plate armor do it.

Armeng

09-01-2005, 11:12 PM

<blockquote><hr>Axhine wrote:<div></div> /sigh this is a bunch of crap I swear please screw the guardian class even more thanks.<hr></blockquote>and arent they getting a 12 sec melee immunity ability? (dare i say disc) with a 3 min reuse timer Tsumani or something like that <div></div>

Gaige

09-01-2005, 11:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Armengar wrote: and arent they getting a 12 sec melee immunity ability? (dare i say disc) with a 3 min reuse timer Tsumani or something like that <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yup, we are.

TunaBoo

09-01-2005, 11:41 PM

We get to clone ourself.. vs easier mobs its a 15 sec invuln.. though vs a raid mob only a hit or two I would imagine. <div></div>

RafaelSmith

09-02-2005, 12:25 AM

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Armengar wrote:and arent they getting a 12 sec melee immunity ability? (dare i say disc) with a 3 min reuse timer Tsumani or something like that <hr> </blockquote>Yup, we are. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Gage...what do you think about the actual topic of this thread?....Brawlers having higher base health than Warriors.<div></div>

Gaige

09-02-2005, 12:28 AM

<DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote: Gage...what do you think about the actual topic of this thread?....Brawlers having higher base health than Warriors. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't really think gameplay wise it matters. Because if you look at your persona screen and hover your mouse over your HP you'll see your base is a lot lower than the actual HP you utilize at any given level due to buffs, equipment and so on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So therefore I think is more of a technicality than anything, and its usually playing out as a couple hundred more HP if that unbuffed, and a ton less buffed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Plus with the reduced effects of STA on beta it isn't like you are going to see 10k HP brawlers and 7k HP warriors. Its more like unbuffed 4200HP brawlers and 4000HP warriors, and then 5k HP buffed warriors and 4500HP buffed brawlers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So in short: It isn't like they really changed anything imho, because a couple hundred HP at 50 or 60 really just doesn't matter. </DIV>

Urglu

09-02-2005, 12:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Armengar wrote: and arent they getting a 12 sec melee immunity ability? (dare i say disc) with a 3 min reuse timer Tsumani or something like that <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yup, we are. <HR> FYI it sounds like that is getting nerfed (likely increased recast) before it goes live.</BLOCKQUOTE>

Gaige

09-02-2005, 12:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote: FYI it sounds like that is getting nerfed (likely increased recast) before it goes live. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Link? Although I wouldn't doubt it, I'm just curious where your info is from.

Urglu

09-02-2005, 12:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote: FYI it sounds like that is getting nerfed (likely increased recast) before it goes live. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Link? Although I wouldn't doubt it, I'm just curious where your info is from. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Not a linkable statement. Which obviously means it isn't a done deal, but it is being looked at with some concern per recent feedback. The recast increase was my guess at the "fix" if they decide it is needed. </DIV>

Gaige

09-02-2005, 12:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote: Not a linkable statement. Which obviously means it isn't a done deal, but it is being looked at with some concern per recent feedback. The recast increase was my guess at the "fix" if they decide it is needed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ah, I just haven't seen anything posted about it. /shrug. If it happens it happens, I'll live.

Airog

09-02-2005, 01:30 AM

Hm, yeah, 100hp isn't gonna make them godly or anything, just a small bump. Not gonna absord the spike damage they take, that's for sure.

RafaelSmith

09-02-2005, 01:48 AM

<blockquote><hr>Gaige wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <blockquote> <hr> RafaelSmith wrote: Gage...what do you think about the actual topic of this thread?....Brawlers having higher base health than Warriors. <hr> </blockquote> <div>I don't really think gameplay wise it matters. Because if you look at your persona screen and hover your mouse over your HP you'll see your base is a lot lower than the actual HP you utilize at any given level due to buffs, equipment and so on.</div> <div> </div> <div>So therefore I think is more of a technicality than anything, and its usually playing out as a couple hundred more HP if that unbuffed, and a ton less buffed.</div> <div> </div> <div>Plus with the reduced effects of STA on beta it isn't like you are going to see 10k HP brawlers and 7k HP warriors. Its more like unbuffed 4200HP brawlers and 4000HP warriors, and then 5k HP buffed warriors and 4500HP buffed brawlers.</div> <div> </div> <div>So in short: It isn't like they really changed anything imho, because a couple hundred HP at 50 or 60 really just doesn't matter.</div><hr></blockquote>Sounds like when I try to say ...."that extra 50 HP my range slot gives me doesnt really matter" to the Crusadors =P The fact that Brawlers get more BASE health is plain WRONG and a sign that SOE really has no clue how to balance a fighter archetype consisting of 2 totally different methods of tanking (avoid and mitigation) and ending up with something equal. . <div></div>

Airog

09-02-2005, 01:52 AM

Hm, plain wrong you say? Perhaps. Whould a Ninja be able to take as many direct hits (HIT POINTS) as a fully plated Warrior? You should be able to answer that one Gungo. =P

Gungo

09-02-2005, 02:03 AM

<DIV>Airoguy wrote</DIV> <DIV>Hm, plain wrong you say? Perhaps. Whould a Ninja be able to take as many direct hits (HIT POINTS) as a fully plated Warrior? You should be able to answer that one Gungo. =P </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(Now as i said the ninaj comment is just me messign aroudn and has nothign to do with the game.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hell yeah ninja guy would own you. OMG BRUCE LEE WOULD KICK MAXIMUS (from gladiator the movie). (closest real character i could think of as a warrior =/)</DIV>

Airog

09-02-2005, 02:09 AM

Haha, aye, I am messing around. You know me bud. Still, gotta admit, that ninja comment was some funny stuff.

Shizzirri

09-02-2005, 02:26 AM

Nah if Russell Crowe we're a fighter class he's a brawler all the way even though he did play a pretty good warrior in gladiator... Wow this one's off topic...

Gaige

09-02-2005, 02:28 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: Nah if Russell Crowe we're a fighter class he's a brawler all the way even though he did play a pretty good warrior in gladiator... Wow this one's off topic... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>He used a shield and sword, he obviously wasn't a brawler.

Shizzirri

09-02-2005, 02:32 AM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote: Nah if Russell Crowe we're a fighter class he's a brawler all the way even though he did play a pretty good warrior in gladiator... Wow this one's off topic... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>He used a shield and sword, he obviously wasn't a brawler. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I was actually referring to his real life fighting problems, he had to pay some hotel worker $300,000 cause he threw a lamp at him.</DIV>

Airog

09-02-2005, 02:42 AM

Haha, right on topic...

Gungo

09-02-2005, 02:46 AM

dang straight he did lazy hotel workers. Make my call Now! I am russel crow Fear me

Airog

09-02-2005, 02:47 AM

Haha.