Skill / Stat comparison, beta and live

[Pa]

<DIV>I dont really have the time to make a post as detailed as some of the other classes have, but since people are still asking for comparison shots I can do that atleast. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First column is live, second is beta. The third deafen is the lvl 50 trait choice, I was trying to get all 4 choices for every trait so people could make an informed decision upon /respec but there is no /respecs allowed yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit: added Fortified Stance and Return to Battle level 50 Master2 trait options, last one is taunting assault I'll try to get that one when beta server is more stable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit: added Taunting Assault master2 trait and beta version of Rescue</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/anchor_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/anchor_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/blast_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/blast_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/callofprotection_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/callofprotection_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/calltobattle_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/calltobattle_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/cleave_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/cleave_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/commandingpresence_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/commandingpresence_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/deafen_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/deafen_beta.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/deafen_beta_master2.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/desperaterush_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/desperaterush_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/ferociouscharge_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/ferociouscharge_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/fortifiedstance_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/fortifiedstance_beta.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/fortifiedstance_master2_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/ironconviction_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/ironconviction_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/overwhelm_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/overwhelm_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/protect_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/protect_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/retaliate_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/retaliate_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/returntobattle_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/returntobattle_beta.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/returntobattle_master2_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/staggeringslam_live.jpg"> <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/staggeringslam_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/swamp_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/swamp_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/tauntingassault_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/tauntingassault_beta.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/tauntingassault_master2_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/tremor_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/tremor_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/unerringstrike_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/unerringstrike_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/vengefulstrike_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/vengefulstrike_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/vigilance_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/vigilance_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/vindication_live.jpg">  <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/vindication_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I dont have a screen of rescue on live but it's like 500 threat and +1 position with 30min re-use    <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/rescue_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>New skills in Beta:</STRONG> Other than the ones already posted in other topics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/assauge_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/wallofbrawn_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stats, first collumn is live, second is beta. I dont have either HP trait (dont ask), since traits were removed its actually a better representation than someone who does have the HP traits on Live.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Unbuffed:</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/statsunbuffed_live.jpg">                 <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/statsunbuffed_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Self Buffed:</STRONG> With fortified Stance, Call of Protection and Iron Conviction only</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/statsbuffed_live.jpg">                   <IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/statsbuffed_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Equipment Changes: All items have changed in mitigation values, the right side isnt nearly as important as the left in Live even, but moreso in Beta. Firtst two screenshots are live, second two are beta. Sorry theyre so heavily compressed I really dont have the time to crop them all :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Live:</DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/equip1_live.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/equip2_live.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Beta:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/equip1_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.enmityguild.com/upload/equip2_beta.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As you can see a lot has changed, yet remained the same, I think thats why no one has posted detailed information about every change to the guardian class. We were more of the baseline during changes and havent changed much ourselves, overall.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Paen on <SPAN class=date_text>08-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:14 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Paen on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:01 AM</span>

[Aven Elonis]

<DIV>Thank you for the info. Nice work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aven </DIV> <DIV>50 Guardian</DIV>

[davidro]

Seems like the only upgrade is the Shield, the rest just gets worse.

[TunaBoo]

Aye everything is worse but taunts.. but hopefully mobs got worse too <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Our DPS isn't doin so good though. <div></div>

[Wrapye]

I see they took the ability of Protect to work when stifled or stunned out, which appeared at some point on beta.  That's very unfortunate.  That made it a particularly nice taunt. How about Rescue? Thank you. <div></div>

[Pa]

<DIV>oops, rescue owns now I know I got a screen here somewhere I'll update post.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protect can still be cast while stunned and stifled, its not listed as an effect (pretty sure it never was) but its in the description and still works.</DIV>

[Mentin]

<DIV>The biggest change to our playstyle I have seen on beta is that you must use a shield now if you are tanking anything. On live 2h or dual often was the choice when fighting sub-white mobs, on beta shields are so effective that you will get eaten fast if you dont use one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Part of our dps nerfing I guess.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Thor]

<DIV>From the screenies I can see that Deafen adds more threat but Protect lesser. Good thing is Protect now can be used on Epics and recast time shortened from 30 sec to 20 sec and it has a wider range.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anchor in it's current state is superior for long pulls, do we need use bow after the change?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also seems you have to "relearn" how to play our class.  Any tips on how to easiest adapt the change?</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>I would call it damage per minute rather than damage per second...</DIV>

[Nazo]

<P>DPS for Guardians = Damage Per Season</P> <P>:smileyvery-happy:</P>

[MastikFantastik]

<div></div>I don't know about you guys but it seems to me like we are getting kicked in the pants by the exanpsion.  Yes we do get a couple of very cool or useful abilities but on the whole we are not being upgraded it seems.  If anything seems like we are be nerfed.  Compare us to the other classes in what abilites etc thy are getting or the hanges to their current ones and you will see what I mean.  I will be sticking it out as  a guardian but its sad to see how we in the end will be screwed over (coparitively speaking). BTW Thank you for all the info, and screen shots. <div></div><p>Message Edited by MastikFantastik on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:46 AM</span>

[Macross_JR]

Actually all the HP traits were racial, not class.  What they took out was class traits.  All Racial traits remain the same. <div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> MastikFantastik wrote:<BR> I don't know about you guys but it seems to me like we are getting kicked in the pants by the exanpsion.  Yes we do get a couple of very cool or useful abilities but on the whole we are not being upgraded it seems.  If anything seems like we are be nerfed.  Compare us to the other classes in what abilites etc thy are getting or the hanges to their current ones and you will see what I mean.  I will be sticking it out as  a guardian but its sad to see how we in the end will be screwed over (coparitively speaking).<BR><BR><BR>BTW Thank you for all the info, and screen shots. <BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by MastikFantastik on <SPAN class=date_text>08-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>07:46 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>We are getting kicked in the pants because according to like 4 people our class is "overpowered."  That's probably about 90% true, I mean guardians get a lot of help with buffs and such which create that overpowered sense...</P> <P>Perhaps if the combat changes suck which they will most likely (unless your a fury) we can have a lucky volunteer make 5k posts proposing that guardians now suck and need to be made slightly more powerful and we can have another big combat change patch a couple months down the road.  </P> <P>Its sad in EQ1 I constantly complained about how horrific the SK class was and they didn't do jack to fix it, yet here they seem to bend over backwards to meet the needs of some people, amazing...</P>

[Mig]

From what I've seen if you wanted to be a tank, maybe even a raid tank and didn't care about DPS or utility your going to be happy. If you wanted to have good DPS, be able to solo easy, and still be able to tank well, then your going to be disappointed. If you re-rolled your main 3 months after the game came out because guardians were "teh ubah", your going to be REALLY unhappy.

[JNewby]

hey one thing you did not post which I assume will be a huge difference given the spell changes is the def from live and beta... I would be very interested to see how that changes...  as really that was our biggest ally and what kept us alive...

[Arsen]

Thanks for the pics...  two things though. 1.  The HTL skill line doesn't seem to be here.  I think that will be the line that defines the guardian class.  Root + insane aggro. 2.  From what other people are saying, the exact numbers on the skills are determined by your stats at the time.  IE. Higher STR = more damage.  What was your strengh when these shots were taken - if they are with you unbuffed, then we can probably expect them to be higher across the board.  And I wonder, does higher INT = better buffs? <div></div>

[Nazo]

HTL and its anologues are there but the catch is it needs concentration and we simply dont have enough concentration slots to keep defensive stance buffs and HTL up. I am /feedbacking it and encourage everyone to do so as well. That spell is hugely important and shouldnt be needing concentration. What I suggested was to put it back on timer rather then a permament buff.

[Wado]

<div></div>We have plenty of conc if you just do defensive and no offensive buffs. HTL - 1 Stance - 3 Protection Line - 1 Then, when you're not tanking: RtB - 1 Offensive Stance - 3 Call to War (lvl 51) - 1 <div></div><p>Message Edited by Wadoon on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 AM</span>

[Nazo]

and where do you fit HP and defense buff in this math ? Namely Call of Protection and Return to Battle ?

[Arsen]

My feeling is that in situations where you need a lot of aggro, you are probably going to drop your HP buff and put up HTL.  If you look at us in comparison to other fighters, our taunts are pretty average - paladins for instance get that taunt over time skill that ends up being for 1800.  No other fighter will be able to match generating 300+ hate on every other monster swing though - if you are fighting groups of monsters, that is huge. <div></div>

[Wado]

What Arsenal said - Drop RtB to put up HTL, then you have Protection, HTL, and Stance up. <div></div>

[Nazo]

erm yes sure I can do that but would it hurt you guys if Guardians can do that without loosing 400+ HP ? :smileyhappy: <p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[Wado]

It doesn't hurt our class no - we can still get more defense and mitigation than any of the other fighters out there. <div></div>

[Wado]

Unbuffed Defense <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Wadoon/unbuffed.jpg"> Buffed Defense (not sure why it's blurry, but the color change made it blurry in game and the ss) <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v173/Wadoon/buffed.jpg"> And unbuffed <div></div>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Wadoon wrote:<BR>It doesn't hurt our class no - we can still get more defense and mitigation than any of the other fighters out there.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>and turning this buff into no concentration one is already something beta testing Guardians listed in the "Wish List" which I believe would be hugely beneficial and something that I agree fully.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the immense decrease in HP's in Beta (very roughly you loose about 1/3 of your current HP and supposedly mob damage is adjusted accordingly) tackling any heavy caster mob by passes any Defense advantage Guardians might have. Casters simply nuke our arses off and most of the exciting mobs are heavy casting mobs as well :smileywink:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:33 PM</span>

[OperationsX]

<P>Thank you for the screenies, mucho appreciated.</P> <P>Wow DPS nerf ok</P> <P>But buff and taunt nerf too??! Jez, now I know why all my guardian adepts aren't selling all of a sudden :smileysad:</P> <P>I hope some of that changes before I goes to live</P>

[Wado]

The communities "Wish List" doesn't neccesarily include what's best for the game <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> And with caster mobs that's where different fighters come into play with the huge amount of resists our defensive stances give us. <div></div>

[Dassault]

<DIV>Oh man, they are taking away our only haste ability (Desperate Rush)?   What a load of crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overall, I don't see anything better in this.  Even the equipment looks to be nerfed (mitigation is about half on the Cuirass).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Man, all that work and time for nothing.  Now I gotta start over with a character that's actually useful (if I can find one after this, that is)...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hey Sony, please send those SWG idiot developers back over the fence and tell them to quit screwing up this game like they did that one, please!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RafaelSmith]

These changes suck period for ANYONE that didnt pick Guardian to be a raid only MT. Guardian tells Gage..."If you wanted to be a MT then you should have picked Guardian" Gage tells Guardian..."Thats not what the archetype system is about...it needs to be fixed" then comes the revamp. Gage tells Guardian..."If you wanted to be anything besides a raid MT you should have picked something other than Guardian".. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? <div></div>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Wadoon wrote:<BR>The communities "Wish List" doesn't neccesarily include what's best for the game <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh I see we got a "Guardian was overpowered so ruining game" Guardian here OK OK</FONT><BR><BR>And with caster mobs that's where different fighters come into play with the huge amount of resists our defensive stances give us.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>erm that stance gives 1500 resist to a single stat ? Thats like swapping 2 slots of armor. Yup its gonna make a huge impact on raid tanking.</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:17 PM</span>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>RafaelSmith wrote:<BR></P> <P>These changes suck period for ANYONE that didnt pick Guardian to be a raid only MT.<BR><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Totally accurate analysis yes...<BR>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<BR>These changes suck period for ANYONE that didnt pick Guardian to be a raid only MT.<BR><BR>Guardian tells Gage..."If you wanted to be a MT then you should have picked Guardian"<BR><BR>Gage tells Guardian..."Thats not what the archetype system is about...it needs to be fixed"<BR><BR>then comes the revamp.<BR><BR>Gage tells Guardian..."If you wanted to be anything besides a raid MT you should have picked something other than Guardian"..<BR><BR><BR>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ha Ha, thanks for the laugh.  I mean if this goes live like this and it is true, I guess all the guards who told me if I want to MT raids to roll a guardian, would be right.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Perhaps if the combat changes suck which they will most likely (unless your a fury) we can have a lucky volunteer make 5k posts proposing that guardians now suck and need to be made slightly more powerful and we can have another big combat change patch a couple months down the road.  <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1.  Awww, thank you for saying that I alone shoulder the responsibility of getting SOE to do the revamp.  I didn't realize I had that much pull.</P> <P>2.  But, you may want to reconsider your stance.  The revamp isn't all roses and win for the monk or bruiser classes as of right now, so I guess that just goes to show...</P> <P>OH WAIT.</P> <P>You know what it shows?  That you guys can't compare live stuff to beta, because on beta EVERYTHING is different.  Is all of your DPS arts lower?  Sure, but guess what, so are mine.  Oh yeah, and everyone else's.</P> <P>The fact is that in order to gauge how your class will be on beta you need to compare its beta arts to other classes beta arts.  Your beta stats to other classes beta stats.</P> <P>NOT to live.</P> <P>Because if you do that I suppose you'd have a thread with people freaking out and blaming yet another thing on some guy who posts a lot.</P> <P>I mean sure, I'd love to take credit for everything that happens in this game, imagine the ego I'd have then.  But I assure you I'm only one player, no matter how many times I post I can't seem to generate the revenue that the other hundreds of THOUSANDS of players give to SOE.</P> <P>So until then I imagine they'll take what I say with a grain of salt, if they take it at all.<BR></P><BR></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>08-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:45 PM</span>

[Rochir]

<P>Wow!  You gaurdians got some really nice combat arts in the combat changes.    Makes me wish I was a gaurdian <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Now if they could just do the same thing for us <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Pa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rochir wrote:<BR> <P>Wow!  You gaurdians got some really nice combat arts in the combat changes.    Makes me wish I was a gaurdian <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Now if they could just do the same thing for us <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>heh nothing changed really, most everything was lowered or nerfed in some way, not many 'changes' at all, take a look at the live versions of the skills</P> <P>Gage is right though, everything was lowered, mob hp's, mob dps etc.. So everything was scaled down to compensate, which is good in a lot of ways, the rate of mudflation would have been much higher if this didnt happen. </P> <P>I dont think anyone cares monks and bruisers didnt get what they want though (a very select few monks and bruisers anyway), youre crying in the wrong forum, again. None of us will care when youre not allowed on raids because youre a waste of a raid slot since theres only 1-2 tanks needed, either. The Guardians arent going to be benched, we will still be the premiere tank, it <STRONG>is</STRONG> our class, it's the <STRONG>only</STRONG> thing our class can do, its the <STRONG>only</STRONG> thing our class was made for (especially after these changes), we arent part tank part healer, we arent part tank part dps, we arent part tank part utility. Other fighters will definitely take a hit, especially the monk classes, and youre still fighting to shut yourself totally out of the only part of the game you dont dominate, its amusing to say the least.</P> <P>Diversity is the key to a healthy balance, any more melding of the classes is just going to make a lot of people totally un-needed and un-wanted.</P> <P>When did they remove the ignore user feature from the boards anyway? Nerfed the boards :smileysad:</P><p>Message Edited by Paen on <span class=date_text>08-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:42 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>The boards never had an ignore feature.</P> <P>You know, I think its funny the only people who say hybrids rule are people playing pure classes.</P> <P>If hybrids are so awesome, then why did you pick a pure class?</P> <P>Whether we have 6 classes that are equal, or 5 that suck and 1 that is awesome, regardless, its basically the same thing.</P> <P>I've never understood those against the archetype system when they complain about it making the game into 4 classes, when w/o it all you need is a guard/temp/lock/assassin.</P> <P>4 classes.</P> <P>Irony, eh?</P>

[blueduckie]

<P>I dont see where someone is saying hybrids rule. If you are talking about the post above he is clearly saying all non pure classes are gonna be weaving themselves out of roles and i 100% agree. With many debuffs taken out I would totally want group set ups for raids 1 dirge 5 assassin - 1 troubador 2 warlock 2 wiz 1 necro - 1 troubador 1 inq 1 defiler 1 paladin 1 guardian 1 warden - 1 guardian 1 conj 1 mystic 1 templar 1 fury 1 dirge</P> <P>Now i havnt scanned over all but looked at alot of them. Dirge / Troubador aggro spells gonna be one of the most important skills to have, every single group could benefit. Last i heard enchanter and bard power regen wont stack so unless has been changed back f enchanters IMO bards add tons more. 3 tanks might be light on changes 4 tops will be needed tho and will most likely want 2 guard 2 paladin if anything. Conj CotH gonna be very nice to have. I havnt looked at exactly what is gonna be best mt group set up but fury seems to be spoken word. That individual buff tho last i looked was like a 30sec buff for 3-5 min recast so i dont think that is a defining skill because it isnt reliable. If another class can stack more perma mit id rather have them. Perma mit is alot better and im not sure but could have sworn that fury cast was castable out of group not sure tho. </P> <P>Over all i agree with the poster above about pure classes. Debuffs stacking from multiple classes was a huge bonus to spread out. With skills not blocking eachother assassins gonna own [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] rangers will be good to. Rogues will be f'd good dps but that extra dps from predators is much nicer. As i say that is all my personal opinion is no person who will completely agree because am sure someone has more experience with beta classes than i do.</P> <P>Healers all comming out pretty well IMO the mix of heals etc looks good IMO - Guardians still gonna be preferred choice 90% of time unless need a higher resist boost on a mob and that person can put his higher than guardians gonna suck to be them. Assassins Rangers gonna own and bards will basically replace enchanters if power regens dont stack the ench other buffs arnt bad and debuffs but i dont see them adding as much dps etc as another assassin. </P> <P>Revamp is really pinning the need of spreading out classes. I personally liked the skill stacking issue. It was one of the few things that actually made eq2 strategic if wanting to maximize classes if you brought alot to 1 raid. i kinda thought the stacking issues shoul not only be group blockingo n raids but raid wide to make things alot more strategic and learned unison of what each person did. So much is dumbied down now in eq2. Healers can just target they mob they gotta heal off and watch tv using a sequence of heals. Nukers can just target a MA and watch tv nuking occasionally and checking to make sure he hasnt died or they havnt died. Aggro might be trickier after changes but they will settle into learning there aggro np. We already have mobs that dont train. That go invulnerable when running back. </P> <P>What makes mobs challenging IMO is the room for error. These changes on the post were said to make things more challenging but it doesnt seem that way to me. I like things will be smoother but quit making things easier. Not being able to abuse defense now sweet I only do that on 2 mobs atm anyway. Drayek and MoTM rest i enjoy taking every hit i cant block and parry especially angler because you can watch mitigation work the most on him and it is fun seeing gear show its full benefit. I like mit being king over avoidance but add in some challenging factors. </P> <P>From a betting mans view in the expansion hardest part of raids is gonna be aggro / group curing new type of ae's. I asusme will be many encounters with ways of adding adds that tanks have to pick up quick and keep killed. I still dont see this challenging tho i find that the most fun in the game on raids atm. Having to pick up pats on zalak is probably the most fun I have had on a raid to date that i have done. I wish each pat hit was a straight 8k hit to a raid with out possibly mitigation so if just 1 slipped by the entire raid wiped. Tanking 50 mobs at once in motm is just a bit silly in current state. Heals do all your taunting on motm. Please make eq2 more challenging and demand perfection to beat raid mobs! Understand i havnt raided a single t5 contested raid mob so i have no experience on them seem pretty challenging tho compared to others which owns would like more of that on a over all raid wise.</P> <P>Anyhoo guardians arnt getting it very bad IMO will still own. Just wont be able to watch as much tv while reactives taunt for you. However the HTL changes may prove me wrong seem pretty simple. Hope they make some raids where mobs can have a huge hit like every 5 min where all long recast low timer lasting mit buffs need to be put up at once to prevent being 1 shotted. That would make shizzle fun~</P> <P>So it is late and some of this is most likely pointless rambling I am indifferent on the changes i dont mind skill changes because have no fear of class losing its role or anything but i was hoping for some heavy challenges.</P>