devz please reconsider pushing this out the door...

[Kurei Hitaka]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Stealthmode"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Stealthmode said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112745#post-6112745" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Between the thread aboout GM missing AND broken recipes, and the feedback on the beta crashing....Devz, dont push this out the door, test GM more, postpone the expansion a few months so it can be tested correctly. And begin immediate recall/rollback prior to GM, until EVERY recipe is tested thoroughly. There are a few recipes that are broken already, and it hasnt even been live 5 days,<br /> <br />Test the product more thoroughly before releasing.<br /> <br />Please.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>You can test the living hell out of something, and still run into unexpected technical issues, though. No matter how much more they test this, something will still be wrong.<br /> <br />What people SHOULD be doing is /bug for every last little damn detail, like if an NPC moves to a new area when it shouldn't, or even if its something as seemingly stupid as a mob pathing incorrectly. I think a lot of problems currently are that people in Beta for the expac that don't normally post/report things are having a hard time understanding that EVERYTHING in a beta should be /bug or /feedback'd until the very last minute possible.<br /> <br />Delaying expac content will only piss the majority of people off, and rollbacks would not satisfy the people who have put HOURS into finding the spellshards/foundations. Hell, people on AB are actually gratz'ing in crafting channel if they find them <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" alt="Tongue" />.<br /> <br />Those of us who do report/feedback consistently need to explain to other players that the Devs DO see the reports, and every last little thing in a Beta/Test environment is /bug or /feedback -able.

[Stealthmode]

I agree, but 1 month is going to let more bugs slip through then say 3 months of thorough, organized, testing. Id rather have a few bugs, then a few hundred that go undiscovered because a beta test was rushed.<br /> <br />And i disagree respectfully about why people would be pissed off. Release a rushed expansion that crashes when trying to load into zones, versus delaying a release to cover as much ground as possible, to ensure a more complete product. I think people are going to be pissed with this expansion no matter what. Especially with all the changes to the mechanics. <br /> <br />But I think they are going to be more pissed if its rushed out the door when the majority of the community already knows theres issues with this expansion. And it goes live a month from now? Not enough testing.

[Avahlynn]

I would not be angry If AoM was pushed back a few months. Reading the beta threads? I'm blinking hard at the huge number of massive crashes, quest failure to progress issues, wrong mat/fuel issues, crafted items that should be one level but when they are made they are another level.. And so on and so forth. I'm actually scared of what AoM is going to do come 11/11. There seems to be a mountain of alpha level errors on it. IMHO it's not a beta test, it's alpha still.

[Ucala]

eh, I am more concerned about how they are doing it. <br />with them doing it at 1 step at a time, (raiding being last). that means raiding will get the least amount of feedback, once again.<br />and will be the most broken, again

[Stealthmode]

In the past seperate developers responsible for the raid content, the quest content, etc. Would be present on server to monitor testing in each area simultaneously. I dont know when this was changed, but that is definitely bad. How will it handle under load when raid zones are occupied, advanced solo, and heroic, and half a thousand people are running around the main zones? Without raid content+normal content testing at the same time how are you going to test if the server will wind up lagging because raidzone X is overran (the 1st tier of raiding in AoM will be hit hard the first few weeks once people are geared for it), and heroic instance Y is being farmed for 1st tier raid gear, while those who prefer to solo are farminng adv. solo content?<br /> <br />The GM spells are a good example of this. There are recipes that are missing the master component ingredient in the recipe. And thats just what has been found out so far. Skyshrine is being farmed oncce again for pots to speed up GM research. Skyshrine used to be notoriously laggy when overcrowded, which bled over into other zone lag. No one thought about those old research potions coming into play for GMs. But thats a side item.<br /> <br />I dont want to digress from the issue. If this is released prematurely, its going to cause more problems then a delay of 60-90 days would. Those returning members that are hoping this expansion draws them back into the game, wont be around very long if a thousand patches are required the first month because something wasnt tested thoroughly. Combat mechanics and class changes, not being tested thoroughly enough pvp/pve wise to ensure class balance. Poisons changed, go alchemist, go scout, other gear (crafted) has not (least insofar as Ive seen on beta server). My armorer is still useless. Then there is the tank versus brigand HP/mitigation change. Already drawing flak over that. And a simple graphical function is crashing a world zone consistently. A vertex shader is causing brokenskull bay crashes. Thats bad. And thats just whats known atm. What other hidden bugs are going to go live and bring the servers down cause it wasnt tested the length betas normally are tested?

[Beyoncia]

Let's face it: the majority of players are here for years, they've seen a lot of bad and good things from SOE. They are still here because they like the game, they have had a lot of opportunities to quit, and everyone who had wanted, already did it. And I'm absolutly sure that most of us don't mind to wait a few months for the better product. Seriously, most guilds haven't finished Maw or DT yet. I can't speak for the others, but I'm absolutly not in hurry, I have things to do in the game. Especially if that means I'll recieve a product that actually works on my pc, because right now I'm afraid of that crashes will go live and it will mean the end of my eq2 career.

[Neiloch]

From personal experience and the way devs are handling things I think they have a lot of fixes ready to be pushed but like was mentioned they are kind of doing this in a linear fashion opposed to many angles at once. There have been a lot of problems but they are also pushing out revisions multiple times a day.<br /> <br />Also a lot of stuff is going to 'remain' broken because they are concentrating on overland quests and the sig lines right now. Any other reports will probably go unanswered for a while until they get to that aspect.

[Stealthmode]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Neiloch"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Neiloch said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112768#post-6112768" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">From personal experience and the way devs are handling things I think they have a lot of fixes ready to be pushed but like was mentioned they are kind of doing this in a linear fashion opposed to many angles at once. There have been a lot of problems but they are also pushing out revisions multiple times a day.<br /> <br /><span style="color: #ff0000">Also a lot of stuff is going to 'remain' broken because they are concentrating on overland quests and the sig lines right now. Any other reports will probably go unanswered for a while until they get to that aspect</span>.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />This is what I am talking about. In prior years, sig quests, overland content was THOROUGHLY tested in ALPHA. By the time it hit beta, there were a handful of bugs yes, but with 90 days of beta testing they came to light and were patched, SIMULTANEOUSLY to raid content patches/testing.<br /> <br />Someone changed policies for testing at SoE, and this is going to be a bad launch. I can see it just from the beta and what I am reading here, and what has already been rushed to live (GM).<br /> <br />DEVZ PLEASE HOLD OFF ON RELEASING THIS PATCH UNTIL THE PRODUCT IS MORE FUNCTIONAL, LESS PROBLEMATIC. More thorough testing is needed. Simultaneous testing. Not linear, you are missing bugs that would not be missed in non linear testing.<br /> <br />Unless this is the, well theres always Next for you to move on to expansion, like eq to eq2?

[Gninja]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Stealthmode"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Stealthmode said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112745#post-6112745" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Brokenskull bay is CRASHING the game, and thats just the easily seen bugs)</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Can you give us a little more info on this please? From the amount of testing feedback I am seeing on the zone as well as running the zone myself on beta with solo characters I have not seen any reported crashes nor crashes myself. Just want to make sure I am not missing something.

[Kalika]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Stealthmode"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Stealthmode said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112745#post-6112745" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">B<br />AoM Alpha - How long did you alpha this internally? I am curious.<br /> <br />Please.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I don't think it has been tested, otherwise the main and unique quest line would not be broken.<br /> <br />It takes exactly one player doing the questline, with GM super power to discover that the main plot is broken. <br />I agree that alpha testing cannot discover mistake in the 100 of talents, recipes but finding that the dino at pygmee beach are broen is something nobody can actually miss.

[Stealthmode]

Yeah I am going to have to call Sony on this. This isnt a beta test. They have us externally alpha testing. And a month before launch to boot. This isnt going to work. The sig questlines were always tested internally, and mostly was just minor scripting bugs (typos) or misnamed npc's in the past.<br /> <br />Devz, you dropped the ball on this expansion. Getting testing started too late in the game. This launch needs to be postponed to ensure QC.<br /> <br />Project Manager of EQII Development, expect a phone call monday morning.

[Arieste]

Beta's only like a week old.. and still has a month to go.. why would we be talking about postponing launch? Tons of time to get things fixed. I've done 28 quests so far in my 10 or so hours in the beta. I've never crashed, most things are working. I've found tons of little errors - no more and no less than was in ToV beta - which was all fixed.<br /> <br />Alpha / Beta / who cares? I mean, i know there are lots of dedicated beta testers, but there is no way that the week (or lesS) that we've had is nearly enough for us to test everything and report everything for fixing. No need to panic.

[Kurei Hitaka]

Again.<br /> <br />/Bug, /Feedback, Come onto the forums.<br /> <br />There are three methods to feed the Devs information. Hell, GM Imhai was even on during the whole invisible mob fiasco, feeding information back to the Devs. These things aren't going unnoticed unless you let them :L<br /> <br />You want critical issues fixed, and insist there are "millions" of things so horribly wrong, then do what Beta is intended to accomplish and report every tiny meticulous detail 0.o don't need to delay launch at all.

[Buffrat]

Is this your first time beta testing? This is how every expansion has looked for a few years now.

[Maergoth]

Not to mention, and I could be wrong, but if they pushed everything they have right now to beta, you'd have a LOT more done. The thing is, those fixes they are already working on, the systems they have near completion, the next iteration of prestige lines.. all of it has no reason to be rushed onto beta right now.<br /> <br />There is much more work done than you're looking at.<br /> <br />Most likely.<br /> <br />I would rather they neglect the obvious stuff, because that's the easy stuff. What happens when one of the new systems is found to be broken in some game-changing but not-obvious way, or causes huge amounts of lag, and the whole thing needs to be rewritten? Those are the things we should be worried about.<br /> <br />Not typos and broken quest flags.

[Stealthmode]

Between the thread aboout GM missing AND broken recipes, and the feedback on the beta crashing....Devz, dont push this out the door, test GM more, postpone the expansion a few months so it can be tested correctly. And begin immediate recall/rollback prior to GM, until EVERY recipe is tested thoroughly. There are a few recipes that are broken already, and it hasnt even been live 5 days,<br /> <br />Test the product more thoroughly before releasing.<br /> <br />AoM Alpha - How long did you alpha this internally? I am curious. <br />NotD Revamp - Rushed (but apparently was the primary focus after the "optimizations" that broke some systems)<br />GM testiing - Rushed (recipes incomplete/broken when pushed live)<br />AoM beta - Rushed (1 month is not enough time to iron out bugs. Your testers know it, You know it. Dont go live with this, Brokenskull bay is CRASHING the game, and thats just the easily seen bugs)<br /> <br />You have too much on your plate obviously. And things are slipping through the cracks. Please do not go live with the expansion until it is more thoroughly tested (1 month is not a beta test, sorry, it isnt, older betas of this game were 3-6 months minimum, dont forcefeed us BROKEN code). <br /> <br />Please.

[Kalika]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Buffrat"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Buffrat said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112946#post-6112946" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Is this your first time beta testing? This is how every expansion has looked for a few years now.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div> <br />I beta tested TOV, i completed the solo questline with almost no issue. <br />Advance solo instances were also properly working. I remember only minor issues, or small adjustements that playebetrs suggested, As example the quested armor exchange, adding trajectories to the incoming lasers, making the AOE of one of the golem in nexus slower to cast so that people could interrupt it and so on ...<br /> <br />I don't remember heroic mobs in solo instances, quests unable to be turned in and so on.<br /> <br />Alpha testing is about finding obvious bugs that happen commonly for all users, in our case all players <br />Following the signature have to get into the pirat boat and then they faced heroic mob (hitting for 1,1 million each), so the fact that boat could not be soloed at all was an "alpha" bug. <br /> <br />Now that it has been fixed, the boat is in "beta" stage, some classes can complete it but clearly not all and i m quite sure that a warden in quested TOV gear is not very likely to complete this instance. Mage and scout in HM raid gear reported being unable to complete the boat. This is beta stage, it works but needs adjustements. <br /> <br />Honestly i don't know if the Dev team will have enough time to fix everything, let's hope they manage to do it. But what is clear is that the open beta was somewhere halfway between alpha and beta, it had many major issues that should had been fixed during the internal alpha stage.

[Haloek]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Kurei Hitaka"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Kurei Hitaka said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112749#post-6112749" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">You can test the living hell out of something, and still run into unexpected technical issues, though. No matter how much more they test this, something will still be wrong.<br /> <br />What people SHOULD be doing is /bug for every last little damn detail, like if an NPC moves to a new area when it shouldn't, or even if its something as seemingly stupid as a mob pathing incorrectly. I think a lot of problems currently are that people in Beta for the expac that don't normally post/report things are having a hard time understanding that EVERYTHING in a beta should be /bug or /feedback'd until the very last minute possible.<br /> <br />Delaying expac content will only piss the majority of people off, and rollbacks would not satisfy the people who have put HOURS into finding the spellshards/foundations. Hell, people on AB are actually gratz'ing in crafting channel if they find them <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" alt="Tongue" />.<br /> <br />Those of us who do report/feedback consistently need to explain to other players that the Devs DO see the reports, and every last little thing in a Beta/Test environment is /bug or /feedback -able.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Yes, the delay would make some people mad, but considering the list of people that can't even get into the zones they should push it back and at least fix that. I don't know about you guys but I would be more angry if I spent $60 on something just to have it not work than I would be if I had to wait another month or two and actually have it playable when it comes out. They said they put out a build to fix it but there is still a long list of people who can't get into the new zones without the game client crashing

[Krath]

Just to give perspective from the other side :<br /> <br />I realize that a lot of people are having issues with crashing in beta from reading the forums, however my in game experience is showing the opposite. I have talked to/grouped with a LOT of players on the beta server and all but one have been running smooth. The one that had crashing issues was only happening 1-2 times a night (once zoning to the basement of the tower, the other zoning into Bildgewater Falls). His issues stopped after the patch on Friday/Saturday.<br />I wonder if it may be a driver or hardware issue? Would be interesting to see the system info for the people that are having problems.

[Stealthmode]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Buffrat"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Buffrat said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112946#post-6112946" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Is this your first time beta testing? This is how every expansion has looked for a few years now.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>No I beta test and alpha test products for a few companies which I wont mention due to NDA. But I have been in the testing industry for years (like 15), its a part time job at times, a volunteer job at others. 1 month isnt enough time to test. Never was.

[Stealthmode]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Maergoth"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Maergoth said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6113211#post-6113211" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Too bad SOE payroll doesn't allow for QA testing. I'd be willing to do it for 15 an hour, full time, with benefits.<br />And by benefits, I mean.. a working game :/<br /> <br />Jokes aside, whether it is or isn't finished, and whether they do or don't release it on time are not things a wimpy little thread on the forums is going to change.<br /> <br />If they have to delay it, they will. Or not. That is not up for public discussion, or this expansion will turn into Half-Life 3.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>And that is why the developer of that product has a HUGE community. They listen to their testers.

[Maergoth]

Too bad SOE payroll doesn't allow for QA testing. I'd be willing to do it for 15 an hour, full time, with benefits.<br />And by benefits, I mean.. a working game :/<br /> <br />Jokes aside, whether it is or isn't finished, and whether they do or don't release it on time are not things a wimpy little thread on the forums is going to change.<br /> <br />If they have to delay it, they will. Or not. That is not up for public discussion, or this expansion will turn into Half-Life 3.

[Achirin]

I'm getting flashbacks to Gates of Discord myself. All I remember of that expansion was bugs, and the giant turtles by zone in.

[Alenna]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Kurei Hitaka"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Kurei Hitaka said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112749#post-6112749" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">You can test the living hell out of something, and still run into unexpected technical issues, though. No matter how much more they test this, something will still be wrong.<br /> <br />What people SHOULD be doing is /bug for every last little damn detail, like if an NPC moves to a new area when it shouldn't, or even if its something as seemingly stupid as a mob pathing incorrectly. I think a lot of problems currently are that people in Beta for the expac that don't normally post/report things are having a hard time understanding that EVERYTHING in a beta should be /bug or /feedback'd until the very last minute possible.<br /> <br />Delaying expac content will only piss the majority of people off, and rollbacks would not satisfy the people who have put HOURS into finding the spellshards/foundations. Hell, people on AB are actually gratz'ing in crafting channel if they find them <img src="/images/smilies/tongue.gif" alt="Tongue" />.<br /> <br />Those of us who do report/feedback consistently need to explain to other players that the Devs DO see the reports, and every last little thing in a Beta/Test environment is /bug or /feedback -able.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>well if some of us can't even get into tranquil sea without crashing i'd say it is not ready to be pushed live. and if they explained why most people would not be upset.

[Alenna]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Kurei Hitaka"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Kurei Hitaka said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112899#post-6112899" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Again.<br /> <br />/Bug, /Feedback, Come onto the forums.<br /> <br />There are three methods to feed the Devs information. Hell, GM Imhai was even on during the whole invisible mob fiasco, feeding information back to the Devs. These things aren't going unnoticed unless you let them :L<br /> <br />You want critical issues fixed, and insist there are "millions" of things so horribly wrong, then do what Beta is intended to accomplish and report every tiny meticulous detail 0.o don't need to delay launch at all.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>I would but I can't do any testing since I can't even get into Tranquel Sea. I want to /bug /feedback and come here on teh forums to tell them what is or is not working what is or is not fun. but since I can't get into even the first new zone ot do the quests my hands are tied and yes I"ve /bugged and reported it here about the crashing with details this is not my first time beta testing they are aware of the problems that cause a lot of us to think a month is not long enough to catch the MAJOR problems with this expansion.

[Gelenor]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Kalika"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Kalika said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6113169#post-6113169" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">I beta tested TOV, i completed the solo questline with almost no issue.<br />Advance solo instances were also properly working....<br /> <br />I don't remember heroic mobs in solo instances, quests unable to be turned in and so on.<br />.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>Then Kalika, you somehow managed to miss the heroic quest "[102] Priorities" that was also in the ToV Beta solo Highkeep zone when you did the sig quest, which had heroic mobs guarding npc updates. Wiped players with ease as they headed for each named. Reported in beta and fixed eventually.<br /> <br />Stealthmode - I am sort of amazed that given you took a break from this game for 3 years between 2009-2012 and then you missed TOV release with another year off between July 2013 until your return in the last couple of months, that you can decry this process so early into beta. You are barely back and you act you know what to do and the game designers don't. <br /> <br />ToV beta, which you missed, was run this way.. but received good player attention and feedback because of a clear reward structure for players for being involved. I hope to see improvements and even enticements for players to be actively involved in the coming weeks.<br /> <br />Shoot from the hip with pinpoint hindsight accuracy if they fail, but at least give them a chance.

[konofo]

<div class="bbCodeBlock bbCodeQuote" data-author="Stealthmode"> <aside> <div class="attribution type">Stealthmode said: <a href="index.php?goto/post&id=6112868#post-6112868" class="AttributionLink">↑</a> </div> <blockquote><span class="ae_quote_symbol">“</span><span class="ae_quote_content">Project Manager of EQII Development, expect a phone call monday morning.</span><span class="ae_quote_symbol">”</span></blockquote> </aside></div>How did your call go? Did the receptionist laugh before or after hanging up on you? I bet it was both.<br /> <br />kono

[Sisca]

Have you checked the multiple threads on crashing or not being able to get into the new zones and tried the fixes? Did you update your video drivers? Have you posted a thread with your crashing issues that shows what hardware and software you're running?<br /> <br />I was on for a couple of hours this morning and during that time we had at least 3 people log in and say that they couldn't get to the new zones or couldn't log in to their copied characters. Almost every one of them had done the /beta command from someplace like Vesspyr or their guild hall. Everyone suggested that they go back to live, move to either FP or Qeynos and copy again then try it. For those that did it seemed to work. Perhaps try that.<br /> <br />Last week I was experiencing crashing every couple of hours but it didn't seem to be video related it seemed to be an issue with certain zones. For example I'd zone into the cellar and it would look fine then my network latency would go through the roof and I'd be back at character select. Since the patch on Friday I haven't had those issues. I'm pretty sure it was a combination of something on their end and something on my end since my wife, on the same network connection, had no issues.<br /> <br />Also, I hate to say it but those of you running 5+ year old computers and still sticking with 32bit XP are going to probably have to do an upgrade. The level of detail, even at the lowest settings, of these new zones is pretty remarkable. Combine that with all of the special graphical effects they're doing and it's really going to be pushing up against the limit of what a 32bit system can handle.

[Phreak]

A few points. Yes our beta cycles keep getting shorter and that is just plain bad. Also, of course the people you've grouped with in the new zones were able to zone in... what kind of comparison is that? If you were questing with the people who can't get in I'd be really impressed.