Avoidance, Mitigation, and the Caps - How should they be displayed?

[Corv]

<div></div>I'm sure most of us are intimately familiar with the numerous short-comings of the character profile currently in the game.  Specifically, the way avoidance and mitigation are displayed.  The %-avoidance and %-mitigation values are both misleading because they only apply to a regular white mob.  Once you hit 100% (which is *not* 100% vs all mobs) you have no way to quantify what additional agility, defense, etc. will do against a very tough opponent unless you  do some log parsing.  We might not be hitting 100% avoidance after the revamp, but it looks like we will be hitting 100% mitigation, which is even more misleading since 100% vs. a white mob is actually only going to be 80% thanks to the mitigation cap.  Presumably, raising our mitigation after reaching 80% will  help  with higher level mobs until we  reach 80% vs them too...  (This needs to be confirmed on test with some parsing.)  Finally, many  buffs/items add mitigation vs. specific damage types,  but the mitigation displayed in the profile appears to be an average vs  all mitigation types.  We have  no way of  telling what our actual mitigation is vs. slashing, crushing or piercing.  e.g. Say you have two bracers of equal AC, but one has a modifier of +100 vs crushing.  Swap them in and out and you will see your overall  mitigation go up and down even though it's only changing vs. crushing! I've heard rumors that the character profile window is being reworked, so now would be a good time to generate some feedback to make sure it gets fixed properly.  Personally, I'd like to see the new profile convey the following:    1. Mitigation by damage type    2. Mitigation/Avoidance vs. mob level    3. The effect of the caps. I'm sure most of us are sick of people saying, "OMG!  100% avoidance = Ur 1NV1NC1B4L! N3rf GaRDz!"  This is why showing the relationship between mob level and % avoided/mitigated would be bloody nice.  I also want to see a graphic depiction of the caps so people can clearly see the impact they have instead of guessing, parsing, theorizing (if  they're smart) or just assuming some random rumor about how it operates is true and acting on that until the end of time.  (if they're not so smart)   So how could the new system accomplish this?  Well, that's why I'm  starting this thread.  Let's brainstorm folks.  Let's come up with some good ideas while there's a chance they might be implemented.  (It's probably too late already,  but what the heck) One possibility is to present mitigation/avoidance as a graph vs. level.  With level on the X-Axis and your avoidance or mitigation on the Y-axis you would be able to see exactly  how things are working.  You would see high values for lower levels, the same percentage you would see in the current profile at your own level, and steadily decreasing values for mobs higher level than you.  If you're hitting the cap you would graphically see a plateau.  Avoidance and mitigation by type could either be plotted using multiple lines of different colors or toggled by a control off to the side.  For bonus points, clicking on a mob might cause a point to appear on the graph corresponding to what your mitigation/avoidance vs that specific mob would be.   (This might be better left out though, since not knowing precisely how ^'s affect the strength of the mob would leave at least a few mysteries for the stat-fiends to unravel. <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)   Anyone who can read a graph  (hopefully the majority of EQ players) would be able to take one look at this graph in the character profile and say "Of course!  That's how it works.  It's simple."  That's what a good interface *should* do.  Unfortunately,  this involves more than merely spitting out a number so it will probably never be implemented.  Can anyone think of improvements, refinements, or completely different ways of accomplishing the same thing that have a snowball's chance in Hades of actually being implemented? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Corvan on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 PM</span>

[Syndic]

You are fighting one simple fact.  Sony loves to hide the numbers for these things from players.  As they have said many times, there has to be some mystery as to how things work. Personally I don't like the % mitigation/avoidance system I think it is misleading and uninformative.  Maybe that will change with the combat revamp, currently I rarely fight a mob of equal level, so telling me my mit and avoidance for one is pointless. It's misleading in the fact that with a cap coming of 80% vs a mob, people have already started arguing over the fact that they can make 80% without blinkin an eye.  But this is infact untrue becuase as a mob gets higher in level that value of avoidance you see is continually dropping.  By how much we do not know, but that comes back to one of those mystery type deals. Frankly I like the idea of one figure, I don't want to have to continually look at a graph or a list of figures. Really if you are in a fight and you loose, it then becomes a challenge to change your tactics, do you need to get more Agility, Stamina.  Maybe upgrade that shield, maybe not use a shield? The only use I see for Mitigation and Avoidance is comparison (and I'm sure many others do to hence the reason the AC value was split into 2 figures in the first place).  The problem at the moment is it compares versus an arbitary mob who doesn't really exist.  Who hasn't come across a mob that they killed with out taking a dent only to face a different type of mob of equal level and get creamed.  The level of a mob has no meaning, so why compare are mit and avoidance to it. Personally I have kept the number display for my mitigation, becuase I want to know when I'm trying on new gear or buffs etc what effect it has compared to what it was.  A level 45 Warrior can not compare his mitigation to a 46 warrior, becuase all you ever see is a %, that % number means nothing to the other player though. Although I have to agree with the mitgation vs different weapon types. They could use a better way of showing that. But to sum up, they really just need to give players the numbers back.  % comparison only means something if you are comparing against a constant, and mobs are anything but constant, if they were this would be one hell of a boring game. <div></div>

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>Syndic wrote:You are fighting one simple fact.  Sony loves to hide the numbers for these things from players.  As they have said many times, there has to be some mystery as to how things work. Personally I don't like the % mitigation/avoidance system I think it is misleading and uninformative.  Maybe that will change with the combat revamp, currently I rarely fight a mob of equal level, so telling me my mit and avoidance for one is pointless. It's misleading in the fact that with a cap coming of 80% vs a mob, people have already started arguing over the fact that they can make 80% without blinkin an eye.  But this is infact untrue becuase as a mob gets higher in level that value of avoidance you see is continually dropping.  By how much we do not know, but that comes back to one of those mystery type deals. Frankly I like the idea of one figure, I don't want to have to continually look at a graph or a list of figures. Really if you are in a fight and you loose, it then becomes a challenge to change your tactics, do you need to get more Agility, Stamina.  Maybe upgrade that shield, maybe not use a shield? The only use I see for Mitigation and Avoidance is comparison (and I'm sure many others do to hence the reason the AC value was split into 2 figures in the first place).  The problem at the moment is it compares versus an arbitary mob who doesn't really exist.  Who hasn't come across a mob that they killed with out taking a dent only to face a different type of mob of equal level and get creamed.  The level of a mob has no meaning, so why compare are mit and avoidance to it. Personally I have kept the number display for my mitigation, becuase I want to know when I'm trying on new gear or buffs etc what effect it has compared to what it was.  A level 45 Warrior can not compare his mitigation to a 46 warrior, becuase all you ever see is a %, that % number means nothing to the other player though. Although I have to agree with the mitgation vs different weapon types. They could use a better way of showing that. But to sum up, they really just need to give players the numbers back.  % comparison only means something if you are comparing against a constant, and mobs are anything but constant, if they were this would be one hell of a boring game. <div></div><hr></blockquote>     Your question seems to  be whether or not Sony wants the average user to have a clue how the combat system works.  While I would agree that specifics should often be withheld to enhance the "mystery of the game", should the basic principles upon which the entire system operates also be hidden?  If the system is indeed meant to  be understood only by stat-fiends, then I agree, revert it to raw uninterpreted numbers so the misrepresentation, at least, is gone.  We can parse to find out where the caps are, etc..  However, I interpreted the display of %-avoidance and %-mitigation in the current profile as an attempt to explain how the system works, as if they *do* want typical players to know.  It just doesn't do a very good job.  So, assuming they do want the underpinnings of how the system works to be understood by most players, how can they convey the concept?  That's what this thread is about.  <u> </u><u>Re: The level of a mob having no meaning</u> -- Untrue, even in the current system.  Your defense skill *and* your level  vs. the mob's level and weapon skill are currently the primary means of deciding how much you avoid.   There is the str vs agi modifier, parry, and block as well but level and defense skill are the two biggest factors.   Mitigation is even more level dependant since there are fewer modifiers that effect it.   (That's why percent values mean so little to players who aren't the same level, as you've noted.) In the new system the defence skill has been severely gimped.  They have specifically stated that they want level to play a much bigger role so that the con-system actually works.   Post-revamp, level will most definately not have "no meaning".</span> <span><u>Re: The cap not being an issue: </u> Yes, the caps will be very difficult to hit when you're fighting raid mobs.  This is the same reasoning everyone uses to dismiss the problem.  What they forget is that it will be much easier to hit the caps when solo'ing, when in exp groups, and on raids with large numbers of weak mobs.  (e.g. Meeting of the Minds)  Sony has reduced mitigation across the board slightly (and thereby made the caps harder to hit)  by reducing the mitigation on accessories, but the problem of plate-tanks being motivated to wear leather under certain conditions is currently still not resolved on test.   The caps are the most counterintuitive thing about the new combat system.  (i.e Wearing more plate doesn't always make you tank better!)  If they can't sort out the mechanics so that players *never* hit the caps, then any reasonable attempt to help players understand how the combat system works needs to show what effect the caps have.</span><div></div>