Any experience with combat changes yet ?

[Kurg]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>As the new combat changes have hit test server and Moorguard stated that the NDA is lifted, I ask  if someone - who has a guardian on Tester Server - can post his experience with the changes...</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I read some reports already on monk forum and on Illusionist forum and looking forward to hear/read something about guardians  :smileytongue:</FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Kurgor on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:44 PM</span>

[TunaBoo]

Wish I could tell you <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div>

[MeridianR]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:Wish I could tell you <span>:smileysad:</span> <div></div><hr></blockquote>The NDA is lifted for skill from L1-50, just anything from 50-60 can't be giving yet. Yes I understand I am a Paladin, but I am interested in all Plate wearing tanks, since I want to see how badly we get dps nerfed compared to other classes. We were told it will now go:  Mages > Scouts > Fighters > Priests   , well since Fury's are getting two 1k nukes I want to see how Warrior/Crusaders fare.</span><div></div>

[Rorrak]

<DIV>Post specific questions and I'll do my best to answer them.  It's hard to see the entire impact of the changes because *everything* is different.  Healing, Taunting, Buffing, Damage by us, Damage by other people, etc etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV>

[stelle]

from what i read from the changes page, our combat abilitie damage will be lowered on the whole, but i also read that our auto attack damage will be similiar to scouts seems each melee class has defensive and offensive stances and each tank class will have certain damage mitigations that they are better at what i really want to know is why is  kite shield and tower shield the same 20% avoidancee <div></div>

[Mig]

Talk about the stances, those seem to show some promise.

[Zaboo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rorrak wrote:<BR> <DIV>Post specific questions and I'll do my best to answer them.  It's hard to see the entire impact of the changes because *everything* is different.  Healing, Taunting, Buffing, Damage by us, Damage by other people, etc etc.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <OL> <LI>what skill does your highest damage?  how much damage?  what quality was the skill</LI> <LI>is the protection line any better?</LI> <LI>how bad are the healers taking agro now versus what you noticed before?</LI> <LI>if you autoattack something what kind of damage you doing? what kind of weapon was it and how does the foes level comapre to yours?</LI> <LI>unbuffed what is your mitigation? what is it self buffed?</LI> <LI>unbuffed what is your avoidance? what is it self buffed?</LI> <LI>any new combat arts?</LI></OL> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and last but not least.... can you solo an heroic?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you asked <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  thx for helping</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Rorrak]

<DIV>Well our DPS is way down, but everyone's DPS is way down, which is important to note when you see the actual skills.  You have to compare the DPS values to each other and not to live.  Keep in mind mobs are all changed too, so live vs. revamp comparisons aren't very useful.  Also the parses I saw came from a day or two before they tweaked fighter autoattack damage up, so I'll have to reparse myself and see other people's parses over a number of days to really see where we stand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The revamp really makes Guardians mitigation tanks - which personally I'm pretty happy about. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talking with other Guardians we haven't really seen what +Defense does anymore, it doesn't seem to affect avoidance very much, so we're not entirely sure of its purpose.  I'll be parsing its effect soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fortified Stance Adept I adds 530ish mitigation vs. crushing, piercing, slashing and a little over 1k heat resist (at 50, 1028 iirc), along with 9 Defense, and your typical slow, I forget the exact % and takes 3 concentration, that's your primary defensive stance, which I've been pretty happy with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concentration management is a new thing we'll have to (along with every other fighter, and most other classes that I've heard of)  focus on.  Both our offensive and defensive stance taking 3 conc leaves us with only 2 for other buffs, most of whom require 1 conc now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our Offensive Buff is Desperate Rush, adds 42 str, 9 crushing/slashing/piercing, -11 Defense at Adept I/50.   Note: no haste on this skill line anymore. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HtL line of skills has changed, instead of a 33% to proc encounter hate when you hit something, it's a 20% chance to proc hate when something hits you.  So if you have multi-encounter aggro, the new HtL skills will be firing off helping you hold it.  I need to play with it more to see if it still drains power, and get in some large multi-encounter situations to see how that plays out.  The last of the line was 20% chance to proc 409 hate (App I, recipes for new skills aren't in yet last I heard)  These skills take 1 conc and still root you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Commanding Presence now adds 500-600 mitigation to your party (one of the damage types is 600, the others are around 500, I think piercing or slashing is the higher one, I know it wasn't crushing), 1 conc, no duration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our HP Buffs no longer stack, and take 1 conc, no duration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hate on taunts is up across the board, Protect Adept I is about 1130 encounter hate, reduces encounter DPS by...4.5% I believe?  and that effect lasts 1 min 12 seconds, still 30 second recast on Protect and it does land on epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protection skills fire off quite a bit, they're actually useful now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With crafted ebon/jboots etc I can self buff to 74% mitigation atm.  A guardian I was testing with in pretty much all fabled easily hits 80%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So our mitigation is a lot better, our avoidance is lower, our damage is lower, our taunts are better, and our protection skills actually work. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Tebr]

<DIV>Thanks for the info Rorrak, please keep it coming.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are two things you said that concern me:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Commanding presence's highest +mitigation was not crushing. Crushing is (at least in the old game) the most-used physical damage type of raid mobs, by far. It sounds selfish, but if another class gets a higher crushing mod than guardians then our main tanking days could be over.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2) The 80% cap on mitigation is reached easily: what will be the point of armor upgrades? Worse, will every other fighter class be able to easily reach this cap (with full raid buffs) making class distinctiveness a thing of the past? I have been concerned that if brawlers can reach that 80% mit cap and maintain better avoidance...what would be the point of a plate class defensively? I really hope SOE pays attention to balance here. Please see if you can check out some other level 50 fighters and get info on max mitigation and the sort.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDIT: One other comment: in the current game it is not that hard to get to 95% mitigation with full raid buffs...so really our mitigation is lower now. Let's hope the mobs hit a lot less hard or this could be a miserable adventure. I'm also concerned about getting stunned more because we are hit more...can you comment on that?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Tebren on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:36 AM</span>

[Rorrak]

<DIV>My 74% mitigation is self buffed, not raid buffed, I'm sure raid buffed it'll be through the roof.  I haven't seen every other classes mitigation buffs but I severely doubt another class gets more +mitigation buffs than guardians, in crushing or any other damage type.  I'll do some testing with a monk and see how high we can get her mitigation with my buffs.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV>

[IvarIronhea]

<DIV>Out of curiosity, do we get any form of self heal? I've noticed monks had the reuse timer on their self heal(up to 31%) dropped to 3 minutes. Quite an effective tool. Shadowknights have had their lifetaps upgraded to be semi useful. Berserkers gained a regen function(at the cost of their haste it would seem). I assume paladins(and bruisers) are retaining healing power.  Did we gain anything in this arena?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is mostly from a solo standpoint as tanks will run out of power quickly and to solo many are currently "turtling down" then using auto attack to burn through the NPC. A self heal of some kind is almost required for this sort of tactic if you are consistently getting hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>On a side note, its interesting to see guardians(and berserkers) lost  self haste where as monks retain theirs(2 stackable buffs by the by). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, how are protection buffs fixed? They may catch more but what of their inherent drawbacks(ie more damage overall spreadout and lack of our mitigation applied to the hit) seems to offset any functionality. In addition, these may have raid functionality but I still have yet to find a use for them in normal play(ie questing, single grouping type of play). Not sure what good these are when compared to other utility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry, another issue, our offensive stance seems inherently weak. The strength buff seems to be somewhat useless with the cap on damage bonus. This may be addressed with a rework of the strength caps or what not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play mostly solo/duo or small group(3 to 6) for quest completion and the like so I'm somewhat concerned with the news so far.</DIV>

[Corv]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Rorrak wrote:<div>My 74% mitigation is self buffed, not raid buffed, I'm sure raid buffed it'll be through the roof.  I haven't seen every other classes mitigation buffs but I severely doubt another class gets more +mitigation buffs than guardians, in crushing or any other damage type.  I'll do some testing with a monk and see how high we can get her mitigation with my buffs.  </div> <div> </div> <div>- Rorrak</div><hr></blockquote>Well, they did specifically state in the patch message: <i> </i></span><i><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">"Spell and item effects can now have a greater effect on your overall mitigation. You can mitigate a maximum of 80% of any damage type. This cap is higher against opponents that con grey." </font></font></i><font size="2"><font color="#ffffff">This is, of course, a tad ambiguous.  I certainly hope it will be possible to buff our mitigation "through the roof" on raids, but that all depends on what this cap actually means!  I would assume the mitigation displayed in our character profile is based on a white opponent, so if you had 70% displayed you would mitigate >70% vs. blue or lower mobs and <70%  vs. yellow and higher mobs.  (Just like how 100% avoidance was *not* 100% against tough mobs!)  </font></font>However, what happens when we reach 80%?  I was able to reach that solo (with the rare Hero's armor HO) before the revamp, so afterwards it's probably going to be very easy to hit 80%.  The big question is whether the cap is going to be at 80% vs. whites, and therefore much lower on raid mobs, or 80% across the board so that pumping our mitigation up after we hit 80% in the display will still help on raids.  Parsing is probably going to be the only way to test this.  If it's capped at 80% vs. whites then we're getting royally borked.   All these new mitigation buffs will be useless if all tanks can hit the cap with other classes buffs.  If it's not capped at 80% vs. whites, then the character profile is really going to need some changes to make it useful again. (Unless it displays your % mitigation vs. whites irrespective of the cap, in which case you might see mitigation values up to 100% even if you only mitigate 80% of the damage from whites... That's still not very intuitive, but would be marginally less useless.)  I have another question for you Rorrak...  How much concentration do Call of Protection and Call to Battle use?  Ironically, it sounds like Sony has spastically overreacted yet again and nerfed the defense skill to irrelevance, so although it was once our most vital buff, CoP may now not even be worth casting. ;p <div></div><p>Message Edited by Corvan on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Rorrak]

<P>CtB and CoP each use 1 conc, no duration</P> <P>So far when tanking I almost always use Fortified Stance/Commanding Presence, then usually my 5th conc is Braksan's or Return to Battle.  The level 10/20/30/40 trait changes haven't been reworked completely yet though so it's impossible to say which ones will be desirable.  </P> <P>We get a new line of protection spells, single target, uses no concentration, no duration, that gives then 30% avoidance and reduces their hate gain by 20% (at App I).  As soon as I get in a raid I'll test if I can cast it on members in other raid groups.  With that line & Vigilance & Sentry you intercept/block/parry/riposte for another person quite a bit.  I'll be looking into Sentry more as well, but the hits I took seemed similar to the hits I took when tanking, suggesting the skills may be taking my mitigation into account.  That was just an initial impression though, I'll have to really sit down and check it.</P> <P>- Rorrak</P>

[Catu]

<DIV>Awesome info, sounds cool that we are getting more mitigation amps.</DIV> <DIV>Any info on iron conviction? Or has the buff been made completely useless?</DIV> <DIV>With Stance taking up 3 then commanding presence and a hp buff taking the other 2 concentration seems like there would be no room for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Catulu, Everfrost</DIV>

[Corv]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Rorrak wrote:<p>CtB and CoP each use 1 conc, no duration</p> <p>So far when tanking I almost always use Fortified Stance/Commanding Presence, then usually my 5th conc is Braksan's or Return to Battle.  The level 10/20/30/40 trait changes haven't been reworked completely yet though so it's impossible to say which ones will be desirable.  </p> <p>We get a new line of protection spells, single target, uses no concentration, no duration, that gives then 30% avoidance and reduces their hate gain by 20% (at App I).  As soon as I get in a raid I'll test if I can cast it on members in other raid groups.  With that line & Vigilance & Sentry you intercept/block/parry/riposte for another person quite a bit.  I'll be looking into Sentry more as well, but the hits I took seemed similar to the hits I took when tanking, suggesting the skills may be taking my mitigation into account.  That was just an initial impression though, I'll have to really sit down and check it.</p> <p>- Rorrak</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote></span>The new protection line does sound promising, although the hate reduction may prevent it from being a useful spell to cast on the MT in some cases, depending on how easy it is to hold aggro.  Of course, until we test this in a raid situation there's no telling what it will/won't stack with, but 30% is huge.  I really do hope you're right about the old protection line now working with mitigation. (I have a master version of Sentry that I'd love to see worth casting someday! ;p) One thing that is concerning me about the mitigation cap is how useful all that fabled heavy plate is going to be.  If a player hits the cap for whatever level of mob they're fighting then they'll be motivated to take off that wonderful fabled plate and put on freakin' leather!  That's just wrong.  Flat out, uncontestably wrong.  <div></div><p>Message Edited by Corvan on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:13 AM</span>

[Rorrak]

<DIV>Iron Conviction does not take a concentration slot, lasts 15 minutes, adds 20 sta at Adept I.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Caps are always a bad thing.. even if its 80% vs a level 56 mob, still seems too easy to reach it making fabled useless. Also nice if we had a way to see what our current mita was vs level 55 or 56 mobs.. rather then the display just sitting at 80% all the time.  Or did they add a place for us to see our own ac and do the math? <div></div>

[Wado]

If you inspect yourself you can see what your mitigation is in #'s instead of percentile. <div></div>

[PIexor]

<DIV>Use "inspect" on yourself to see the raw migation number instead off the %.</DIV>

[Chutta]

So are we losing our 30 second buff line as far as being a 30 second buff? (commanding presence) In dungeon crawls and general exp'ing I used those to gain aggro when we had adds or multiple groups.  Are we getting any kind of multiple group/target (blue background) kind of taunt?

[Corv]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Rorrak wrote:<div></div> <div>HtL line of skills has changed, instead of a 33% to proc encounter hate when you hit something, it's a 20% chance to proc hate when something hits you.  So if you have multi-encounter aggro, the new HtL skills will be firing off helping you hold it.  I need to play with it more to see if it still drains power, and get in some large multi-encounter situations to see how that plays out.  The last of the line was 20% chance to proc 409 hate (App I, recipes for new skills aren't in yet last I heard)  These skills take 1 conc and still root you</div> <div> </div><hr></blockquote>This skill sounds very promising.  Does the spell description specifically say it proc's encounter hate and not AE all-encounter hate like the original HtL?  Once you get all the mobs on you there won't be much difference since all the encounters will be smacking you, but if the proc were an AE that hits all encounters in the area then the overall hate generation would be much higher and would even grab aggro on encounters not currently beating on you.   Also, can commanding presence still be recast at will despite it's lack of a set duration?  It may still be good for grabing multi-encounter hate... </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Corvan on <span class=date_text>08-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:18 PM</span>

[WabashCannonball]

<DIV>No longer can we pull with Anchor.  It is now a buff that roots you.  I'm at work and don't have the specific numbers but it works similiar to the way it did when we used it on mobs.  Roots us, increase mitigation, and decreases our dps.  Can't remember if it lasts 30 or 60 seconds, but it doesn't require concentration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wabash Cannobal</DIV> <DIV>50 Guardian/50 Weaponsmith</DIV>

[Shardis Wolfe]

<DIV>Maybe I was just reading the Anchor line of spells wrong, but they seemed to read to me as slowing the target at the expense of increasing its mitigation as well. If the spell line now slows <STRONG>US </STRONG>and<STRONG> </STRONG>increases <STRONG>OUR</STRONG> mitigation (along with the root), it will now be working significantly different than it was before, more like a mitigation version of the current Hold the Line ability.</DIV>

[knightinplaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> So far when tanking I almost always use Fortified Stance/Commanding Presence, then usually my 5th conc is Braksan's or Return to Battle. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Currently Commanding Presence is a 30sec duration buff and Call of Protection is the large group defense only buff. Just a confusion in names or was Commanding Presence completely changed and the latter no long as useful?</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

i believe it slows them and increases their ac, just like it does now (until I see a screenshot to prove otherwise) <div></div>

[IvarIronhea]

<P>Currently it looks like bruisers are taking the increased resistance to poison as their "specialty" resistance.</P> <P>Check out jezekiel's post on CA's and more specifically their fire stance.</P> <P>Considering who plays a bruiser, I'm not at all shocked by this.</P>

[Syndic]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Well, they did specifically state in the patch message:<BR><I><BR></I></SPAN><I><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>"Spell and item effects can now have a greater effect on your overall mitigation. You can mitigate a maximum of 80% of any damage type. This cap is higher against opponents that con grey."<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></I><FONT size=2><FONT color=#ffffff>This is, of course, a tad ambiguous.  I certainly hope it will be possible to buff our mitigation "through the roof" on raids, but that all depends on what this cap actually means!  I would assume the mitigation displayed in our character profile is based on a white opponent, so if you had 70% displayed you would mitigate >70% vs. blue or lower mobs and <70%  vs. yellow and higher mobs.  (Just like how 100% avoidance was *not* 100% against tough mobs!)  </FONT></FONT>However, what happens when we reach 80%?  I was able to reach that solo (with the rare Hero's armor HO) before the revamp, so afterwards it's probably going to be very easy to hit 80%.  <BR><BR>The big question is whether the cap is going to be at 80% vs. whites, and therefore much lower on raid mobs, or 80% across the board so that pumping our mitigation up after we hit 80% in the display will still help on raids.  Parsing is probably going to be the only way to test this.  If it's capped at 80% vs. whites then we're getting royally borked.   All these new mitigation buffs will be useless if all tanks can hit the cap with other classes buffs.  If it's not capped at 80% vs. whites, then the character profile is really going to need some changes to make it useful again. (Unless it displays your % mitigation vs. whites irrespective of the cap, in which case you might see mitigation values up to 100% even if you only mitigate 80% of the damage from whites... That's still not very intuitive, but would be marginally less useless.)  <BR><BR>I have another question for you Rorrak...  How much concentration do Call of Protection and Call to Battle use?  Ironically, it sounds like Sony has spastically overreacted yet again and nerfed the defense skill to irrelevance, so although it was once our most vital buff, CoP may now not even be worth casting. ;p</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by Corvan on <SPAN class=date_text>08-05-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:04 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are correct in this.  Your mitigation and avoidance is against a even con mob.  The combat changes indicate that con color will now have even more meaning in combat, so as something turns yellow and red that mitigation value will go down, so having it up at the 100%+ mark would still be a big advantage.  The only problem is since you can only ever see even con mitigation you will NEVER know if you've reached the cap against that mob 7 levels higher than you.</P> <P>Personally I never liked the % based numbering and still have the actual mitigation figure on my screen (still have % in another window, but since I rarely fight even mobs it really doesn't matter).  I think if they are going to give us % numbers they should at least give the option of choosing the level we which to compare against.<BR></P>

[Rorrak]

<DIV>"Currently Commanding Presence is a 30sec duration buff and Call of Protection is the large group defense only buff. Just a confusion in names or was Commanding Presence completely changed and the latter no long as useful?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, Commanding Presence now takes 1 concentration and doesn't expire, it raises two physical resists by 480 and one by 600 at Adept I.  Call of Protection adds a small amount of avoidance, and you can only cast it when you have your defensive stance up, so I rarely use it.  I'm going to parse it's effect though, just to see if I'm missing something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday I stopped using Braksan's/RtB to leave one concentration slot open so I could use the new hold the line skill maddening defense for my 5th conc slot, and it really increased my hate generation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV>

[Nazo]

<P>Can you give numbers for Avoidance ? Looks like we can cope with Mitigation one way or another but Avoidance will make or break us. </P> <P>I am sorry to hear about Anchor because I found it an EXTREMELY usefull tool in its current version.</P> <p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:02 AM</span>

[knightinplaid]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rorrak wrote:<BR> <DIV>"Currently Commanding Presence is a 30sec duration buff and Call of Protection is the large group defense only buff. Just a confusion in names or was Commanding Presence completely changed and the latter no long as useful?"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, Commanding Presence now takes 1 concentration and doesn't expire, it raises two physical resists by 480 and one by 600 at Adept I.  Call of Protection adds a small amount of avoidance, and you can only cast it when you have your defensive stance up, so I rarely use it.  I'm going to parse it's effect though, just to see if I'm missing something.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yesterday I stopped using Braksan's/RtB to leave one concentration slot open so I could use the new hold the line skill maddening defense for my 5th conc slot, and it really increased my hate generation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Thanks for clearing that up. I wonder if in the future the 2nd fighter class in a group might want to be....another guard, sounds strange. We'll have to see how everyone else's buffs were changed but I think there may be some shuffling of the usual suspects in the standard MT groups.

[Danter]

<DIV>Thanks for the info so far, Rorrak.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could you possible take a couple screenshots examining a bunch of your spells (Kind of what Gaige did in the monk forum) and show your persona window so we can see your new mitigation and avoidance.  I think this would answer a bunch of our questions on what's changed and what's improved.</DIV>

[goawaynow]

Thanks for the great info, Rorrak. Quick question though....what about Rescue? What does it increase your hate by and what is the timer on it? :smileyhappy:

[TunaBoo]

Rescue is on monk forums. Looks the same as before just ~double hate.. which is in line with the hate upgrade. <div></div>

[Rorrak]

<P>Adept I rescue is over 1400 hate, increase your hate position by 1, 10 minute recast.  </P> <P>- Rorrak</P>

[aislynn00]

<P>At the current time, all the other fighter classes except paladins have screenshots of their revamped combat arts posted in their fora, which puts us guardians at a significant disadvantage since we can't really compare ourselves to our fighter peers.</P> <P>Hence, Rorrak, would you do us all a favor and post a few screenshots of your combat arts?  35th to 50th level would be sufficient as far as I, personally, am concerned, but whatever you can manage would be appreciated.  </P> <P>Thanks!</P>

[aislynn00]

<DIV>Oh, and if you need such screenshots hosted, I'd gladly do so.</DIV>

[Vellek]

<P>Here are some screenshots I took. If you need more let me know and I will screenshot them:</P> <P><IMG src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Kerry7784/Testspells1.jpg"></P> <P> </P> <DIV><IMG src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Kerry7784/Testspells2.jpg"></DIV>

[Nazo]

Thanks a lot ! If I can ask another favor can you post [Removed for Content] of your Character Info...

[Vellek]

<DIV><IMG src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Kerry7784/teststats.jpg"></DIV><p>Message Edited by Vellek on <span class=date_text>08-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:19 AM</span>

[Vellek]

<P>Commanding Presence and your defensive stance (Fortified Stance) have quite a bit of mitigation now. It isnt all that hard to get to 80% mitigation self buffed. </P> <P>There isnt any health buff stacking now, and you will have to chose between Return to Battle and Braksan's. RtB gives about 115 more health than Braksan's but lacks the 9.1 defense and 260 crushing mitigation. </P> <P>With Fortified Stance, Braksan's and Call of Protection you can still buff up your Defense a total of 29.2 (10.4 + 9.1 + 9.7).</P> <P>I am pretty pleased overall so far. However, 80% mitigation is a little too easy to cap. </P> <P>The devs stated that they are still working on the fighter and priest spell lines so dont count these spells to stay the same. </P>

[R]

<DIV>From those SS.. Looks like Braksan's does not take Concentration? Is that right? If so, I would probably give up that 100hp or so for Braksan's and use the saved concentration for another spell.. Thx for the info btw.</DIV>

[Vellek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> saphka wrote:<BR> <DIV>From those SS.. Looks like Braksan's does not take Concentration? Is that right? If so, I would probably give up that 100hp or so for Braksan's and use the saved concentration for another spell.. Thx for the info btw.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You are correct. Braksan's and Return to Battle do not stack, but Return to Battle takes a concentration point while Braksan's does not. I suspect this will be changed but for the moment Braksan's is definitely a wiser choice.

[Nazo]

<DIV>Thanks again ! :smileyhappy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sure its been posted but I am unable to find it. What is our specialist damage resist now ? Heat ?</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Anchor is our new commanding pressance? /goes and buys anchor master from broker <div></div>

[sylvo]

Maybe its just me .... but unless im mistaken ; All our self only buffs appear to have - a) a 30 second duration b) a 1 min or greater recast ... Am I the only one who feels this doesnt bode brilliantly towards us being primary MT's ? Like I say maybe Im being selfish but it seems to me like 95% of our stuff is for the group and the 5% that isnt, cant be kept up for longer than 30 seconds, also I didnt notice but were the 30 second buffs self only ... *shrug* Farhane United Kingdoms Guk Server. <div></div>

[aislynn00]

<DIV>Thanks a lot for the screenshots, Vellek!  I feel quite relieved now, having seen buffs like Anchor which hadn't been mentioned by guardians on the test server heretofore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyhow, what about our single-target taunt attacks; are they still in the game, and if so, how well do they work?  And what about our power drains; it seems Deafen has lost its power drain component, but do we retain the remaining two power draining combat arts?  How about stifles and stuns as well as slows and DPS debuffs?</DIV>

[SmakenDah]

<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">Thanks for the screenies </font><span><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">:smileyvery-happy: I'm curious to what happened to our group attack buff? I'm also wondering about our attack abilities and things like Invigorating Strike or debuffs like Overwhelm? (which I think is our only one). From the looks of other classes' abilities, most of the extras (like chances to stifle, slow and debuffs) were removed - is that the same for Guards?</font> </span><div></div>

[Raahl]

<DIV>Thanks for the info.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could someone post the offensive stance stats?</DIV>

[SmakenDah]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Raahl wrote:<div>Thanks for the info.</div> <div> </div> <div>Could someone post the offensive stance stats?</div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">It's in the first screenshot as Desparate Rush. It seems they dropped our haste in place of a STR increase, attack increase and defense drop. EDIT: more questions - is the switching to and from stances like a smart toggle where the defense turns off while the offense goes on or will we have to cancel one to get the other one going (I suspect this one)? Is there a cool down time to switching (i.e. are the stances on the same cast timer?)? </font></span><div></div><p>Message Edited by SmakenDahed on <span class=date_text>08-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:57 AM</span>

[tanilophr]

<div></div>All the new info is great, but we are not all level 50 raid tanks yet. Can anyone tell those of us who still solo and exp in groups what the changes will mean for these activities? Thanks, Tanilophren Najena Edited for spelling <div></div><p>Message Edited by tanilophren on <span class=date_text>08-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:32 AM</span>

[Danter]

<DIV>Great stuff Vellek, could you post shots of our attacking stuff as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tremor, Blast, Overwhelm, Retaliate, Call to Battle, Swamp, Cleave, Unnerring Strike, Ferocious Charge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, how are our intercept lines like Guardian's Sphere and Vigilance?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks again</DIV>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SmakenDahed wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <DIV>Thanks for the info.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could someone post the offensive stance stats?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><FONT face=Verdana color=#ff9900 size=2>It's in the first screenshot as Desparate Rush. It seems they dropped our haste in place of a STR increase, attack increase and defense drop.<BR><BR>EDIT: more questions - is the switching to and from stances like a smart toggle where the defense turns off while the offense goes on or will we have to cancel one to get the other one going (I suspect this one)? Is there a cool down time to switching (i.e. are the stances on the same cast timer?)?<BR></FONT></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by SmakenDahed on <SPAN class=date_text>08-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:57 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thanks.. </P> <P>Another question.  Anybody figured out how much the strenght buff affects damage?</P>

[Vellek]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Danterus wrote:<BR> <DIV>Great stuff Vellek, could you post shots of our attacking stuff as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tremor, Blast, Overwhelm, Retaliate, Call to Battle, Swamp, Cleave, Unnerring Strike, Ferocious Charge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, how are our intercept lines like Guardian's Sphere and Vigilance?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks again</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR><IMG src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Kerry7784/attackskills.jpg"> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Kerry7784/interceptline.jpg"></DIV>

[R]

<DIV>Slam, Crush, and Blast now all share the same timer, and now have 1 minute reuse timers.. Also, their power consumption is through the roof compared to before..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunting Challenge is now a AoT(Agro over Time) as well as Vengeful Strike, they are instant cast however, but do not stack with each other. Slates Invigorating Threat still has a 1 second casting time, but gives direct agro, and still lowers dps + increases our mitigation. All 3 share the same timer, but Slates and Vengeful Strike do indeed stack with each other, but Taunting Challenge will now be forgotten.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of our direct damage skills are instant cast as well as our AoT spells. Our direct agro taunts(Taunting Assault, Protect, Slates, etc.) still have casting times..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When playing with the skills I noticed that it takes a LOT more power and time to solo, as far as groups, mobs seem to drop pretty fast due to the instant casting CA's flying everywhere.. Much easier to land HO's now tho, since its all super fast.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ALL of our + defense skills stack(Braksans, Call of Protection, Fortified Stance, Anchor, and the modified Toughness line), but defense seem to play very little role in our avoidance now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of our group buffs take concentration now, except for Braksans(which makes it obvious choice of buff), which will probably be changed..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I also found that the level 41.6 30 second self buff that snares/slows us in exchange for 5ish defense and a root proc gives LESS defense at app1 than Hunker Down Master I, although it is app1 which probably explains why.. Also Hunker Down adds a snare proc instead of root proc, so something to consider..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ferocious Charge, Cleave, and Swamp had their damage reduced greatly, but power consumption was lessened, you use them more for utility now than for damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vindication(as well as all of our other power dot lines) are now instant direct damage + instant power drain, no more dot, just one clean swipe.. Although its nice that it is instant, the amount of power drain is lessened..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, a bug I seem to have noticed, Call of Protection can only be used while you are using your defensive stance.. Although that is intended, there is a way around it. If you throw up your defensive stance, use Call of Protection, then cancel out your defensive stance, Call of Protection will remain on you and you would not need to use the stance to keep it up. Its minor, but yea, I believe its a bug.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We lost the slow / power drain effects from Cleave and Deafen, Deafen is now a AoT with no other side effects, Cleave is pretty much the same, just weaker, no power drain, and lowers DPS instead of slow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The chance to stifle from Vindication was removed, and I think also removed from Ferocious Charge.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Swamp and I think Staggering Slam lost the DPS debuff as well..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And from examining(not actually testing) Unyielding Will at Adept III now heals only 6% hp on activation, rather than 73% like it is now..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is pretty much all the information I gathered from an hour of testing.. Hope it helps..</DIV>

[Danter]

<DIV>Although it's still early in testing, it looks like they're nerfing the crap out of our non existant DPS, which indirectly will make it tougher to hold aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The new Ferocious Charge looks worthless and now the recast is double what it used to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cleave looks just as weak, too, especially at Master level.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Overwhelm has a duration of 36s, what exactly is happening during that span?  It just says it deals direct damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vengeful Strike also looks pretty pathetic, its duration is 18s but its recast is only 10s.  Does this mean it'll only tick 3 times before it's ready to cast again?  This makes it even weaker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same issue with Deafen.  Duration is 20sec, but it has an 8 sec recast time.  That means it's hate over time will tick only once before we're able to recast it again, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless it stacks within itself, which is probably doubtful since nothing before did.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Test guards, is our auto attack weapon damage somewhat decent or is that also a lot weaker now, too, because it looks like it'll take a year to solo with these skills the way they are now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Danter]

<DIV>Before anyone goes we're MT, we're not supposed to deal damage, etc...  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The devs clearly stated that different fighters will be better at tanking different types of raid mobs, so if guardians aren't MT 100% of the time in a raid, and there's only 1 MT spot out of 24, the way it looks now is that we'll be trivialized to buff bots.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Look at other tanks, no one can touch our mitigation from what I saw... unless I am not adding buffs right. Ono range raid mobs no one will be close to our mita. <div></div>

[Macross_JR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Danterus wrote:<div>Before anyone goes we're MT, we're not supposed to deal damage, etc...  </div> <div> </div> <div>The devs clearly stated that different fighters will be better at tanking different types of raid mobs, so if guardians aren't MT 100% of the time in a raid, and there's only 1 MT spot out of 24, the way it looks now is that we'll be trivialized to buff bots.</div><hr></blockquote>As supposed the other tanks are now?  We might not have much dps, but we will still be wanted on raids for our buffs, just like we take knights for GoA and brawlers for their avoidance buffs.  I'm sorry but if you guild only takes you on raids because of what class you are that is stupid.  We in Icono deal with what we can get for raids.  If we have over flow they still get raid credit and we go on with life, the over flow most likely goes on to the next planned raid.  We usually have between 2 and 4 guardians in on raids, not for our kick ourselves in the nuts dps but because we are part of the guild and we have the same rights to go on raids as anyone else.</span><div></div>

[Moontayle]

<DIV>CA damage may be going down but it is my understanding that it's an across the board thing. Also, auto-attack damage is supposed to be going up. <STRONG>And</STRONG> our taunts are being doubled in effectiveness. Aggro holding looks like it'll remain close to what it is now. Of course, not everything is finished with fighters so we'll see.</DIV>

[Poochymama]

<P>The only class that is useless now if not the MT is Berserkers. They took away all of our haste buffs, all of our hp buffs, all of our attack buffs and gave us.......increase in combat health regen by 54 every tic. : )</P> <P> </P>

[Nazo]

Sorry for being Dense but still trying to understand what Anchor does now. Spell description is so confusing :smileysad:

[SmakenDah]

<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">Thanks for the screenshots! Even if the damage reductions seem pretty depressing. How does soloing work with these sorts of changes? I'm guessing things are a little more challenging?</font> <div></div>

[Juk]

<span><blockquote><hr>Vellek wrote:<div></div> <div><img src="http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y289/Kerry7784/teststats.jpg"></div><p>Message Edited by Vellek on <span class="date_text">08-08-2005</span> <span class="time_text">12:19 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> You have braksan's on and thats why so high defense, i guess our avoidance wont be near that without, none of traits was fixed yet and our hp buffs will no longer give +defense. could u post ss of group buffed stats with shaman warden templar and bard if possible. allso ss of selfbuffed without braksans would be nice. some certain brawlers might get [Removed for Content] when they see these ss of us still selfbuffing to 284 defense tho it isnt true after they redo traits.</span><div></div>

[sylvo]

Out of curiosity are "Protect" and "Taunting Assault" still restricted to non epic mobs only ? Farhane. United Kingdoms Guk Server <div></div>

[Moontayle]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sylvore wrote:<BR>Out of curiosity are "Protect" and "Taunting Assault" still restricted to non epic mobs only ?<BR><BR>Farhane.<BR>United Kingdoms<BR>Guk Server<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>The devs have already stated that they're removing that restriction. The effect that was holding it back (stifle type effects) will simply be resisted but the damage or other components will not.

[Vellek]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR>Sorry for being Dense but still trying to understand what Anchor does now. Spell description is so confusing :smileysad: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>Anchor will:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1. Root you (the caster)</DIV> <DIV>2. Decrease your attack speed and damage per second by 14.7% (you will swing slower and do less dmg per hit)</DIV> <DIV>3. Increase your mitigation vs. crushing, slashing and piercing (all physical) by 376.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It lasts 30 seconds and you can recast it after 3 minutes. It is a self only buff that does not affect other players or NPCs.</DIV>

[Gokuri]

<DIV>Ferocious Charge currently has a chance to stifle the target.  Looks like that is now removed.  Overwhelm currently also makes the target more vulnerable to slashing (not on EQ2 so can't fully remember) and looks like that's gone now, too.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are there any stuns or interrupts added?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it looks like we only have one stun with Staggering Slam if that's the case.  =/</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other changes are good, but frankly, I still don't see why any raid would want two guardians (*maybe* in an offtank situation, but there will be a lot more to choose from anyways) given that we can't stun, interrupt, or dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, with the spell revamp, spells now stack when two of the same class casts the same spell on a mob.  How about CAs (other than buffs)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks guys for the useful info.</DIV>

[R]

<DIV>Played around on test a bit... And all I have to say is that right now the battle sequence is horrible.. When grouped, everyone goes through their power just instantly, mobs die extremely fast since 90% of CAs are instant cast now. Also, makes it extremely annoying to try and ae taunt(they still have casting time) when mobs are dropping faster than it can finish!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also making our main single target taunt a small agro over time makes things extremely difficult with this fast paced combat. HO's pass like a blur which makes it pretty hard to notice, or to gear them in right direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were doing the Alone in the Dark instance in Splitpaw and it was just BORING.. Soloing takes forever, and consumes a huge amount of resources(HP and Power).. About 30-40 minutes in and I killed what, 5-6 mobs, moving about 15 feet? Each mob [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] near drops your entire power bar while soloing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of the new Spell/CA changes were nice, some weren't, but my main complain right now is the battle sequence... Especially for tanks since I find myself stumbling over dead mobs trying to land an ae taunt since my single taunts suck.</DIV>

[stelle]

people will adjust to the power bars going fast, they ARE increaseing auto attack damage btw, perhaps it will be useful? <div></div>

[stelle]

all in all these changes do not look bad the only thing im sad about so far is , Anchor looks like its gonna lose its pulling effectivness <div></div>

[Tankz]

<DIV>Deafen, Increase threat by (going by memory) 131-160 every 5 seconds. 20 Second Duraction 8 second recast. So ah, we get one tick of 160 hate, no power drain (I love power drains for aggro) and then we can cast it again? I hope I'm missing something really obvious here, and we're not losing 450 hate and a power drain for fights that involve one primary mob. </DIV>

[davidro]

Are they being serious with Vengeful Strike? Adept III adds 29 threat every 3 seconds? Thats the worst taunt I've ever seen.

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Rorrak wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well our DPS is way down, but everyone's DPS is way down, which is important to note when you see the actual skills.  You have to compare the DPS values to each other and not to live.  Keep in mind mobs are all changed too, so live vs. revamp comparisons aren't very useful.  Also the parses I saw came from a day or two before they tweaked fighter autoattack damage up, so I'll have to reparse myself and see other people's parses over a number of days to really see where we stand.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The revamp really makes Guardians mitigation tanks - which personally I'm pretty happy about. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Talking with other Guardians we haven't really seen what +Defense does anymore, it doesn't seem to affect avoidance very much, so we're not entirely sure of its purpose.  I'll be parsing its effect soon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fortified Stance Adept I adds 530ish mitigation vs. crushing, piercing, slashing and a little over 1k heat resist (at 50, 1028 iirc), along with 9 Defense, and your typical slow, I forget the exact % and takes 3 concentration, that's your primary defensive stance, which I've been pretty happy with.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Concentration management is a new thing we'll have to (along with every other fighter, and most other classes that I've heard of)  focus on.  Both our offensive and defensive stance taking 3 conc leaves us with only 2 for other buffs, most of whom require 1 conc now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our Offensive Buff is Desperate Rush, adds 42 str, 9 crushing/slashing/piercing, -11 Defense at Adept I/50.   Note: no haste on this skill line anymore. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HtL line of skills has changed, instead of a 33% to proc encounter hate when you hit something, it's a 20% chance to proc hate when something hits you.  So if you have multi-encounter aggro, the new HtL skills will be firing off helping you hold it.  I need to play with it more to see if it still drains power, and get in some large multi-encounter situations to see how that plays out.  The last of the line was 20% chance to proc 409 hate (App I, recipes for new skills aren't in yet last I heard)  These skills take 1 conc and still root you</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Commanding Presence now adds 500-600 mitigation to your party (one of the damage types is 600, the others are around 500, I think piercing or slashing is the higher one, I know it wasn't crushing), 1 conc, no duration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our HP Buffs no longer stack, and take 1 conc, no duration</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hate on taunts is up across the board, Protect Adept I is about 1130 encounter hate, reduces encounter DPS by...4.5% I believe?  and that effect lasts 1 min 12 seconds, still 30 second recast on Protect and it does land on epics.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protection skills fire off quite a bit, they're actually useful now.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With crafted ebon/jboots etc I can self buff to 74% mitigation atm.  A guardian I was testing with in pretty much all fabled easily hits 80%.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So our mitigation is a lot better, our avoidance is lower, our damage is lower, our taunts are better, and our protection skills actually work. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>all I got to say is our defense and offense stances both look pretty lame considering now hte need for concentration slots....</P> <P>mitigation better- great to bad its capped at 80%</P> <P>avoidance lower- boo very useful</P> <P>damage lower - dont really care</P> <P>taunts better - ok I supposr.. but I didnt have a problem holding aggro anyhow</P> <P>proterction skills -  I would have been happy if they removed these useless things</P>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JNewby wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>taunts better - ok I supposr.. but I didnt have a problem holding aggro anyhow</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Remember Reactive Agro getting fixed. You may be in a for a big big surprise....</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nazowa wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <hr> JNewby wrote: <div></div> <blockquote> <div>taunts better - ok I supposr.. but I didnt have a problem holding aggro anyhow</div></blockquote> <p></p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>Remember Reactive Agro getting fixed. You may be in a for a big big surprise....</div><hr></blockquote> Plus zero cast time on scouts combat arts is gonna mean there will be some button mashers out there pulling agro -really- fast... at least until enough deaths from agro cause them to learn to pace themselves...</span><div></div>

[R]

<DIV>There was a new patch yesterday, changed a lot of things.. Will shed some light on them later as I am going to bed.. Will post screenshots on skills changed etc unless someone else beats me to it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brief update:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instant cast CAs are now 0.2 second cast time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Protect now only agros up to 650ish at Adept III but got 10 seconds shaven off the recast time and is now 0.2 second casting time(like all the other instant cast CA's). Also can be used while stunned.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Power was reduced on some CA's, dmg was reduced / raised on certain CAs. Deafen and Vengeful Strike are once again, direct agro taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tremor only does damage now, all other effects on it were removed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Commanding Presence was changed back to pretty much what it is on live servers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Icons on various CAs have been changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is more, will post later.</DIV><p>Message Edited by saphka on <span class=date_text>08-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 AM</span>

[davidro]

How's it going with the screenies? I'm very curious <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Catu]

<DIV>I've got a quest about potion stacking.  I heard that ring buffs no longer stack and that poison stacking for scouts has changed a bit, so can we still stack the mitigation, hp, sta, etc... potions for raids or is the stacking of those limited as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>~Catulu,Everfrost</DIV>

[Rorrak]

<P>Ring buffs and potions still stack, the person who reported ring buffs not stacking made a mistake.</P> <P>- Rorrak</P>

[Wrapye]

<div></div>What comes to mind at present is this: Given the present state of things, which of the classe's late T4-T5 CAs look to be worthwhile to be upgraded to Adept III or higher?  Previously the 'Intervene' line of CAs where a waste to upgrade, as there wasn't a lot of difference.  I realize that there might still not be any upgrades immediately available for the new CAs that were introduced, so we'll have to wait on that.  But is there anything that really stands out and says "upgrade if you can" or "not worth spending 2c to upgrade to Master 1"? Thank you in advance. <div></div><p>Message Edited by sacremon on <span class=date_text>08-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 PM</span>

[R]

<DIV>Rings do stack, however potions were changed.. Not only their values, but now they are divided into groups. You can only stack 1 stat potion, 1 resist potion(mitigation is under resist category), and 1 HP or Power potion. This hurts for tanks, and for mobs that require multiple lines of resistance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Here are the screenies of the skills changed, and some that weren't but I can't remember =p.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/1841736VnK/593046.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/1841736VnK/593047.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><IMG src="http://www.pix8.net/pro/pic/1841736VnK/593048.jpg"></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Enjoy =)</DIV>

[R]

<DIV>Notice that most of our mitigation buffs no longer caters to piercing damage. Also Rescue got a MAJOR buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, our hold the line series was changed. Chance to proc hate was up'd from 20% to 50% but the agro produced was decreased.</DIV> <P>Deafen now "interrupts" the target as a bonus.</P> <P>I put up Shield Bash in there because its the only shield bash we have that is on a 20 second timer instead of 30 seconds.</P><p>Message Edited by saphka on <span class=date_text>08-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 AM</span>

[Airog]

I am sorry, don't mean to be dense, but it seems all in all, we get more pierceing Mitigation then Crushing form those CA's... Am I missing something?

[Nazo]

Many many thanks again <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These spell description are killing me resist chance decreased by 39% , under certain conditions...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My INT is 32 for gods sake :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <P>PS I really really really want my old Anchor back :smileysad:</P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 AM</span>

[R]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR>I am sorry, don't mean to be dense, but it seems all in all, we get more pierceing Mitigation then Crushing form those CA's... Am I missing something? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I don't see what you mean.. The only case where it seems we get more piercing mitigation is from Commanding Presence.. Foritified Stance gives ONLY slashing and crushing. Anchor gives all 3.. So we should still have more resistance to crushing/slashing than piercing..

[davidro]

<DIV>According to your picture Saphka Fortified Stance give 616 mitigation vs crushing/slashing/piercing. Has it been changed? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and nice to see Rescue, its one of the 2 masters I got <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Rorrak]

<P>Fortified Stance gives all 3 mitigation types, it's just hard to read because crushing/piercing are on the same line while slashing gets a seperate one.</P> <P>- Rorrak</P>

[Katur]

Hope they rework the recast timers on some of those abilities that dont require concentration. Like commanding prescence , but overall the latest overhaul looks decent.

[Wrapye]

What are Vigilance/Sentry/Guardian Sphere like now after the most recent revamp?  Desperate Rush? I like how they removed the speed reduction from Fortified Stance. <div></div>

[Airog]

Aye, it show fortified stance as giving the same to all three, while commandinng presence gives more to slashing/pierceing.

[Sixmai]

Thanks alot for these screenshots. I am very concerned that the Guardian subclass is getting the very short end of the stick of the Warrior class. Do you remember the statement made by Moorgard that Berserker are supposed to do 10% more damage than Guardian, and the Guardian 10% more defense ? By  looking at the recent combat arts both our subclasses have on test, it's clear berserker will outdamage us by more than 10%, it looks more like 100% actually, especially by using AOE attacks. However what is our defense advantage ? Parry and defense skills are the same. We get call of protection which give 9 defense pt. Has it changed btw ? Anyway 9 defense points is an unknown avoidance amount ... Can someone tell us how many more does it gives ? Mitigation is more broken i believe : we get the same base defensive stance (except on the magical resistance), and what differentiate us are our temporary buff. Berserker get Anarchy a 30 second buff on 1min30 timer like our Commanding Presence buff. In addition we get Anchor a 30 second buff on 3 min timer which gives something like 600 physical mitigation. So here is a little calculation, at Adept 3 : ~600 mitigation from defensive stance. + ~400 mitigation from Anarchy / Commanding Presence for 30s every 90 = ~133 mitigation all time. + ~600 mitigation from Anchor for 30s every 180 = 100 mitigation all time. Overall mitigation of Berserker will be +733 = 14% at lvl 50. Overall mitigation of Guardian will be +833 = 16% at lvl 50. So you may judge we have a tiny advantage over Berserker ... But remember they get in-combat regen buff, and a lot more useful side effect on CA to interrupt / disturb mob, which count when considering the overall defensive ability of a class. I believe they are even more than our equal and currently better than us in this defense as well as offense. What do we get to justify this nonsense ? I know we get some better intercept but let's be real, they are of no use for a good tank, and won't be useful in raid since it's group only. I think our subclass is getting robbed, please prove me wrong. PS : my english isn't perfect, it's not my native language. <div></div>

[Sixmai]

<DIV>I forgot to add two things : </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We have a group hp buff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With this buff, and since most of our buff are for the group, i see only one role left to the Guardian by the Berserker : the stupid buff/intercept bot who can intercept all damage for 30s with his nice 30s mitigation buff.</DIV>

[R]

<DIV>Wow, I musta been really out of it haha, didn't see the fortified stance giving all 3. /bonk me</DIV>

[BostonFNO]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sixmains wrote:<BR>Thanks alot for these screenshots.<BR><BR>I am very concerned that the Guardian subclass is getting the very short end of the stick of the Warrior class.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ff9900>It looks that way to me.</FONT></DIV>

[Moontayle]

<P>Sixmains, make sure you send that info to Blackguard in a PM. Just to point it out. There may be other things coming which will further help our defensive capabilities. If we can get a couple of Guardians and Berserkers in Beta to do a direct comparison between the two subclasses, buff for buff, that would help a ton in our arguments that the tradeoff between them isn't enough. It seems so far that Berserkers are getting way more offensive power than we are defensive.</P> <P>The way it should work, theoretically, is that us with our Offensive Stance should equal a Berserker in Neutral. Them in a Defensive Stance should equal us in Neutral. We should be better in Defensive stances and they should be better in Offensive. However, it is my belief that the amount of Damage Aggro a Berserker can generate will more than outweigh what we can output, but that's speculation on my part based upon pure observation. So my take on everything is that Berserkers will be the better overall tank now, thanks to the aggro they can generate, plus their better DPS. So far, 80% mitigation is stupid easy to get and hopefully that will change.</P>

[Poochymama]

<P>Yes but how does offence help berserkers in any way when tanking? You guys are 10x better off than berserkers.</P> <P>There is absolutely 0 reason to take a berserker on a raid. </P> <P>Just put a guardian as the MT 6 healers and the rest dps.  And by DPS that means Scouts/Mages not fighters</P> <P>So where do all the other fighters besides guardians fit in.</P> <P>Can someone plz tell me a reason to put a Berserker in a raid after the combat revamp. I would greatly appreciate it : )</P> <P> </P>

[Poochymama]

<P>Yes but how does offence help berserkers in any way when tanking? You guys are 10x better off than berserkers.</P> <P>There is absolutely 0 reason to take a berserker on a raid. </P> <P>Just put a guardian as the MT 6 healers and the rest dps.  And by DPS that means Scouts/Mages not fighters</P> <P>So where do all the other fighters besides guardians fit in.</P> <P>Can someone plz tell me a reason to put a Berserker in a raid after the combat revamp. I would greatly appreciate it : )</P> <P> </P>

[Sixmai]

<P>Sorry but you are not looking at it the right way.</P> <P>My plea isn't that the berserker offense make him better tank. But that it make it an overall better subclass since they have the same defense as a Guardian. And that we are not getting our defensive edge, far from 10% at the very least.</P> <P>Btw i picked the Berserker, but as far as i can see, all plate tank are now our equal defensively, minus 2% mitigation and X% avoidance, and ~400hp.</P> <P>Paladin subclass may have even better defense than us since they get two magical resistances off their defensive stance, and they can ward and heal.</P> <P>So let's see it this way : </P> <P>RAID : Future MT will likely be the best stuffed tank, and maybe the one with the more useful magical mitigation (don't bet on it though). Because frankly a small 2% edge and 400 hp isn't enough to make the Guardian the preferred tank. Every Healer can give this advantage, and paladin and berserker get more useful ones i believe (dps aggro, health regen / heal and ward).</P> <P>GROUP : In group you will see this change have a big impact. Because tank dps will matter in groups, and defensively, a health regen give Berserker a better defense. There is no point taking a Guardian over a Berserker in group situation.</P> <P>SOLO : I can foresee a huge impact. While the Guardian will be whiffing at the mob with his ridiculous offensive stance (that the Berserker can have at all time up, even when tanking with his buff Tides of War), the Berserker will crush the mob and be able to regen life during the fight ... It will be ridiculous.</P> <P>Maybe will i post my concern on the test board, but i'm not sure the dev read it. Or that i am entitled to post there since i didn't test these change, i am just judging by the screenshots. And i want more discussion to take place, to see if i missed something.</P> <P>PS : my english isn't perfect, it's not my native language.</P>

[Ragrax]

<DIV><SPAN><FONT face="Times New Roman" color=#000000 size=3> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Century>I see it the same way, Sixmains.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Century>I can understand that defense is weighted more heavily for tank classes (fighter archetype) than dps or utility, so that for instance it could be fair that if class A has 10% better innate mitigation than class B, that class B does 20% more damage than A.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Century>But guardians being like only 2 or 3 percent better than the other fighters at tanking and having significantly worse dps and utility (and btw, I bet noone chose the guardian for better buffs to buff other tanks MTing) sounds pretty wrong in my eyes.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Century>I am fine with other fighters tanking as well as us if they get their dps, heals, feign death etc. transformed into fluff spells, so they are basically guardians with different fun spells.</FONT></FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P></FONT></DIV>

[Landiin]

Yup sounds like there will be a lot of retired guards if this is the case. As it is now, 2 guards on a raid is almost 1 guard to many. If we don't have any better def with the new buff line then it will be 2 guards to many lol.

[Grond]

<P>I know I've already let my guild mates know that there is a good chance I could be gone.  They really should just change Commanding Presense back to the way it was (a perma buff that gave group mitigation).  Leave fortified stance the way it is, and make sure our taunts are top notch.  Then I can be doing 12 dps a fight for all I care.</P> <P>Well that and keep reactive hate the way it is.  I wonder if they've even tested the effect that will have on tanking raid mobs.  Especially things that keep you almost perma-stunned, or a fight like Brutal Acts of War where you're tanking multiple ^^^ encounters.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sir Grondax Ix'Thania</P> <P>Level 50 Guardian / Level 50 Woodworker</P> <P>Guild Leader and Main Tank of Genesis on Highkeep</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <P>Well that and keep reactive hate the way it is.  I wonder if they've even tested the effect that will have on tanking raid mobs.  Especially things that keep you almost perma-stunned, or a fight like Brutal Acts of War where you're tanking multiple ^^^ encounters.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Reactive hate is broken, this is a much needed fix.  I'm also not too sure that one guardian is supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters.<BR>

[Ratty31]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <P>Well that and keep reactive hate the way it is.  I wonder if they've even tested the effect that will have on tanking raid mobs.  Especially things that keep you almost perma-stunned, or a fight like Brutal Acts of War where you're tanking multiple ^^^ encounters.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Reactive hate is broken, this is a much needed fix.  I'm also not too sure that one guardian is supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If one guard isn't supposed to tank multiple +++ encounters then I can think of a couple raids that won't be doable. In brutal acts thiers 5+++ that need to be fought at the same time not sure how you can do that if one guard isn't "supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters".

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ratty31 wrote:</P> <P>If one guard isn't supposed to tank multiple +++ encounters then I can think of a couple raids that won't be doable. In brutal acts thiers 5+++ that need to be fought at the same time not sure how you can do that if one guard isn't "supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters".<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There are always new strategies waiting to be discovered.<BR>

[Ratty31]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ratty31 wrote:</P> <P>If one guard isn't supposed to tank multiple +++ encounters then I can think of a couple raids that won't be doable. In brutal acts thiers 5+++ that need to be fought at the same time not sure how you can do that if one guard isn't "supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters".<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There are always new strategies waiting to be discovered.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I have a great one... Have monks as DPS and not tanks at raids.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ratty31 wrote:<BR><BR>I have a great one... Have monks as DPS and not tanks at raids. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Pretty sure you can use that one to your heart's content... if you log into Ever Quest Live.<BR>

[Urglu]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <P>Well that and keep reactive hate the way it is.  I wonder if they've even tested the effect that will have on tanking raid mobs.  Especially things that keep you almost perma-stunned, or a fight like Brutal Acts of War where you're tanking multiple ^^^ encounters.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Reactive hate is broken, this is a much needed fix.  I'm also not too sure that one guardian is supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>It is beyond that. The entire agro formula the EQ2 engine is using is flawed, and has been since release.  Unfortunately they won't let us see it, so we can't tell them what is wrong. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We all are well aware that reactive hate is broken.  However, I would speculate that some encounters in this game only exist in their current form because they were tested and launched based on the hate mechanics with reactive heals giving hate to the target. This would suggest that while sometimes encounters with corrected reactives will simply be more difficult or different, some will actually have to be changed in order to be completed.  <BR></DIV> <DIV>As for the comment about Guardians tanking multiple +++ encounters, I am baffled.   Any real main tank knows that if you had to split up all +++ in an encounter to defeat them, many encounters in this game would either take 5 hours to defeat or simply be impossible.  Oh I forgot, you're not a main tank, you just want to be without rerolling. </DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Regardless of your jab at my class and the like, the point is any real PLAYER would know that one character taunting 5 or 6 +++ x4 RAID MOBS and being able to not only keep aggro on EVERY ONE OF THEM but also be able to withstand their damage is...</P> <P>broken.</P> <P>Scenarios like that are why so many people cite the entire MT system as flawed anyway.  Encounters like that SHOULD absolutely REQUIRE more than one tank, period.</P>

[Urglu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>Regardless of your jab at my class and the like, the point is any real PLAYER would know that one character taunting 5 or 6 +++ x4 RAID MOBS and being able to not only keep aggro on EVERY ONE OF THEM but also be able to withstand their damage is...</P> <P>broken.</P> <P>Scenarios like that are why so many people cite the entire MT system as flawed anyway.  Encounters like that SHOULD absolutely REQUIRE more than one tank, period.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Gage, you can phrase it whichever way you want.  However, stating your opinion as if it is fact doesn't actually make it fact.  What is broken is determined by the intentions of the SOE Developers as compared to the actual play dynamics on the Live servers.  Certainly some of the things you have illustrated in the past have since been confirmed to be broken as they did not operate as intended.  That doesn't mean everything you disagree with is broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In addition, if you are going to change the language of your hypothetical then your argument suffers.  You suggested a Guardian shouldn't be able to tank multiple +++ mobs.  Multiple is more than one.  Therefore in your original example you objected to a MT tanking 2 or 3 +++ mobs.  If you did not intend to describe such a scenario, then you incorrectly stated your argument.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now you suggest that your objection is to a MT tanking 5-6 +++ (x4) RAID MOBS.  That is certainly a much more specific example, and it certainly differs from what was defined in your previous statement.  Is such an example outside the scope of intended gameplay by the SOE Developers? I don't know, and while they obviously feel some encounters have been trivialized, I don't believe I have seen any specific statements which would allow you to characterize such a possibility as "broken."</DIV>

[Moontayle]

<P>Urglunt, what's broken is the insane ability for Guardians to sit there with a pelthora of stacked buffs and as a result be able to tank 5-6 ^^^x4 groups. Gage is pointing out one specific degree of the broken aspect of the game, and it's one that the devs have backed up numerous times: That buff stacking and various other things have pushed a lot of encounters into the trivial range. That isn't speculation on Gage's part, he's just reinforcing what we've already been told.</P> <P>As to my earlier comments about the difference between Berserkers and Guardians, I'm stating that Berserkers will be the better tanks out of this, just that their ability to hold aggro will be better because of their DPS aggro in conjunction with their Berserker specific buffs. Guardians already had the DPS of a wet noodle and that's not changing but it seems to me that our Defensive Orientation isn't quite living up to that promise as of yet.</P> <P>In an ideal world it would work like this:</P> <P>- Warrior Subclasses would be the exact same in Mitigation and DPS when no buffs are applied.<BR>- Berserker would gain a 10% defensive advantage over the base Warrior when focusing on Defense.<BR>- Guardian would gain a 20% defensive advantage over the base Warrior when focusing on Defense but a -10% hit on Offense.<BR>- Berserker would gain a 20% offensive advantage over the base Warrior when focusing on Offense but a -10% hit on Defense.<BR>- Guardian would gain a 10% offensive advantage over the base Warrior when focusing on Offense.</P> <DIV>So if your base level 50 Warrior Subclass had a mitigation value of 2000 and an average DPS of 50, then the Guardian going full defense would gain 400 mitigation and lose 5 DPS. On the flip side, the Berserker would gain 10 DPS but lose 200 mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That right there would be pretty balanced and clearly delineate the defensive prowess of the Guardian without overpowering them like they are now. Since caps are already being put into place, and with the devs stating that they are rebalancing the raid mobs to take advantage of the different strengths of the various Fighter subclasses, something of this nature isn't all that far fetched to invision. The question is, would the devs see it this way? I dunno, but this is the first feedback I plan on submitting when I can get back into the game in the morning.</DIV>

[Urglu]

Moon, Gage changed his argument because he got called out on his first statement which was patently false. Are some things broken about Guardians? Yes. However I don't think I have ever seen a developer give a particular reference which detailed tanking x number of a particular difficulty of mob as "broken." Therefore Gage's opinion is just that, an opinion. I take issue with his constant statements of opinion as fact, and therefore pointed it out. Am I arguing techinicalities? I suppose. But I am also arguing facts, some people aren't. Where is line in the developers mind between an encounter which has been trivialized and one which has not? I don't pretend to know, and neither you, Gage nor anyone else can either. You can speculate, make educated guesses, etc. That doesn't make any particular hypothetical you may offer a difinitive example of what is broken and what isn't.

[Gaige]

<P>I wasn't trying to state it as a fact, rather as my opinion of one of the things that is broken with this game.</P> <P>I think one player, regardless of class or whatever, taunting and keeping numerous (anymore than 2) +++ x3 or x4 mobs on them, is ludicrous.</P> <P>Period.</P>

[Nazo]

<STRONG><FONT color=#ffcc00>*** Combat Changes ***<BR><BR></FONT></STRONG>- Traits, Tactics, Traditions, and Training spells, abilities, and combat arts have received a pass to ensure that they work correctly with the combat changes.<BR>- Heroic Opportunities have received a pass to ensure that they work correctly with the combat changes.<BR><BR><B>Wizard changes:</B><BR>- Frostbound Gift and Icebound Gift will now harm your target when they proc. <P><BR><FONT color=#999999>Ryan "Blackguard" Shwayder</FONT> </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets see what they will do with Traits now...</DIV>

[Corv]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Moontayle wrote:<p>Urglunt, what's broken is the insane ability for Guardians to sit there with a pelthora of stacked buffs and as a result be able to tank 5-6 ^^^x4 groups. Gage is pointing out one specific degree of the broken aspect of the game, and it's one that the devs have backed up numerous times: That buff stacking and various other things have pushed a lot of encounters into the trivial range. That isn't speculation on Gage's part, he's just reinforcing what we've already been told.</p><hr></blockquote> Actually, that's not what's broken.  if Guardians were removed from the game guilds would still be motivated to use this exact same tactic with another class in their place.  Why?  Heals.  Unlike EQ1 where CH made it grossly inefficient for healers to spam one tank, in EQ2 heals are all tiny compared to a tanks health pool.  The overall  HP-healed-per-second of a raid's healers is almost the same on one tank as it is on multiple tanks.  There are some stacking issues with reactives, etc, but typically not enough to overcome the fact that, when you split up the mobs across more than one MT, you introduce problems with balancing out heals across them.  One tank might not get enough and go down, and you could easily lose the other tank (or a host of other players) in the ensuing transition.  Provided the encounters don't have enough spike damage to obliterate one MT in a single round of combat, it's actually advantageous to have just one MT.  If what you're fighting can obliterate a guardian in one round then you're probably going to have a tough time keeping up with heals anyways!  The one-tank strat is not a result of Guardians being "too uber".  It's a simple result of how healing works.  They can re-balance the classes however they want, but unless they alter the fundamental mechanics of healing or start putting in more low avg-DPS, high burst-DPS multi-^^^ encounters this tactic is not going to go away.  </span><span>The loss of reactive aggro might impact some fights, but honestly, classes with the new HtL line  are going to have an immense advantage when it comes time to select multi-encounter tanks, and the preference will still be for just one MT whenever possible.  </span><span>I'm sorry Gage and Moontayle, but the current game mechanics do not make multiple MT's advantageous except under very rare circumstances, and it's not because Guardians are vastly superior tanks.   It's silly, but that's the way the game works and the revamp probably isn't going to address it.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Corvan on <span class=date_text>08-17-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:28 AM</span>

[Nazo]

Well said...

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ratty31 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <P>Well that and keep reactive hate the way it is.  I wonder if they've even tested the effect that will have on tanking raid mobs.  Especially things that keep you almost perma-stunned, or a fight like Brutal Acts of War where you're tanking multiple ^^^ encounters.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Reactive hate is broken, this is a much needed fix.  I'm also not too sure that one guardian is supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If one guard isn't supposed to tank multiple +++ encounters then I can think of a couple raids that won't be doable. In brutal acts thiers 5+++ that need to be fought at the same time not sure how you can do that if one guard isn't "supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters". <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why do i have flash backs of the Rathe encounter in PoEarth in EQlive here? Judging by your reply here you dont raid much or this is your first MMORPG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no reason why you cant have 3 - 4 MA's while everyone assists <STRONG><U>one</U></STRONG> at a time, and kills them one at a time so then it doesnt take 5+ hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Gage is aboustely right, i dont think Guards or <STRONG><U>ANY</U></STRONG> Fighter class for that matter is suppose to tank multiple +++ epic encounters, it makes it so trivial its not even funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a good thing to have multiple tanks on a raid for mutliple mobs, it makes the game more fun and alot more challenging then just hitting auto attack and walking away or watching TV till its dead.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Moontayle wrote:<BR> <P>Urglunt, what's broken is the insane ability for Guardians to sit there with a pelthora of stacked buffs and as a result be able to tank 5-6 ^^^x4 groups. Gage is pointing out one specific degree of the broken aspect of the game, and it's one that the devs have backed up numerous times: That buff stacking and various other things have pushed a lot of encounters into the trivial range. That isn't speculation on Gage's part, he's just reinforcing what we've already been told.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, that's not what's broken.  if Guardians were removed from the game guilds would still be motivated to use this exact same tactic with another class in their place.  Why?  Heals.  Unlike EQ1 where CH made it grossly inefficient for healers to spam one tank, in EQ2 heals are all tiny compared to a tanks health pool.  The overall  HP-healed-per-second of a raid's healers is almost the same on one tank as it is on multiple tanks.  There are some stacking issues with reactives, etc, but typically not enough to overcome the fact that, when you split up the mobs across more than one MT, you introduce problems with balancing out heals across them.  One tank might not get enough and go down, and you could easily lose the other tank (or a host of other players) in the ensuing transition.  Provided the encounters don't have enough spike damage to obliterate one MT in a single round of combat, it's actually advantageous to have just one MT.  If what you're fighting can obliterate a guardian in one round then you're probably going to have a tough time keeping up with heals anyways! <BR><BR>The one-tank strat is not a result of Guardians being "too uber".  It's a simple result of how healing works.  They can re-balance the classes however they want, but unless they alter the fundamental mechanics of healing or start putting in more low avg-DPS, high burst-DPS multi-^^^ encounters this tactic is not going to go away.  </SPAN><SPAN>The loss of reactive aggro might impact some fights, but honestly, classes with the new HtL line  are going to have an immense advantage when it comes time to select multi-encounter tanks, and the preference will still be for just one MT whenever possible.  </SPAN><SPAN>I'm sorry Gage and Moontayle, but the current game mechanics do not make multiple MT's advantageous except under very rare circumstances, and it's not because Guardians are vastly superior tanks.   It's silly, but that's the way the game works and the revamp probably isn't going to address it.<BR></SPAN> <P>Message Edited by Corvan on <SPAN class=date_text>08-17-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>09:28 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is very true and how it works atm on Live, but now that they have fixed Wards + Reactives to work probally together plus the fact that all NPC's are having a HP + DPS decreasment id more then likely say that multiple tanking will start to work more often now.</P> <P>Another thing is, if you fight a multiple +++ encounter the damage each mob with in the encounter does inst a great deal of damage compaired to 1 +++ mob like Darathar himslef for example, or Venekor. Also note that each class with in the fighter range now has a different resistance to certian types of negative effects, so in Venekors case you are going to want a Tank who is more resistant to Posion to tank one of the adds and another to tank the one who is more resistant to disease while the MT tanks Venekor, the higher the resistance to those negative types of CA's or Spells the more they will resist making them take hardly any damage to begin with.</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:38 PM</span>

[Nazo]

<P>We (my guild) already use multiple tanks in raids but lets be realistic here. In places where 4 groups of 3 arrow mobs pile up on you in addition to main boss you want to use 5 tanks each with 2 healers ? MTing and Off-Tanking strategies got nothing to do with Guardian being uber. If it was Paladins instead of Guardians with similar buffs it would have been 2 Paladins tanking instead of 2 Guardians. </P> <P>Tanking does not consist of a Tank and 1-2 Healers there is also issue of buffs. 2 Tanks is not as efficient as 1 Tank + 1 Buffer currently.</P> <P>There is no game wide conspiracy that forces guilds to use 1 MT plus 1 add tank strategy. It is a solution most guilds discovered after examining game mechanics.</P> <P>I hear that insane Berserker ability to peel a mob at will from a group that has been taunted by a Guardian for the last 2 hours has been nerfed. So mob seperation on incoming pull is becoming much much more important now. We (my guild) relied heavily on that Berserker ability for encounters where initial seperation of adds from main mobs was not possible. This will hurt multiple tanking even more in my opinion. <P>Currently game moves at an extreme pace at least for me. When Vox adds pop it takes a milisecond for them to zoom to someone. Even a quarter second lag spike can cause the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e to hit the fan. Don't know if anyone else is feeling this but sometimes I have the feeling I am playing a nintendo game needing lightning reflexes. A slightly slower pace that gives people time to think and react will make the game much more interesting.</P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 AM</span>

[Ratty31]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ratty31 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <P>Well that and keep reactive hate the way it is.  I wonder if they've even tested the effect that will have on tanking raid mobs.  Especially things that keep you almost perma-stunned, or a fight like Brutal Acts of War where you're tanking multiple ^^^ encounters.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Reactive hate is broken, this is a much needed fix.  I'm also not too sure that one guardian is supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>If one guard isn't supposed to tank multiple +++ encounters then I can think of a couple raids that won't be doable. In brutal acts thiers 5+++ that need to be fought at the same time not sure how you can do that if one guard isn't "supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters". <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why do i have flash backs of the Rathe encounter in PoEarth in EQlive here? Judging by your reply here you dont raid much or this is your first MMORPG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no reason why you cant have 3 - 4 MA's while everyone assists <STRONG><U>one</U></STRONG> at a time, and kills them one at a time so then it doesnt take 5+ hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Gage is aboustely right, i dont think Guards or <STRONG><U>ANY</U></STRONG> Fighter class for that matter is suppose to tank multiple +++ epic encounters, it makes it so trivial its not even funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a good thing to have multiple tanks on a raid for mutliple mobs, it makes the game more fun and alot more challenging then just hitting auto attack and walking away or watching TV till its dead.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your in a 3 man guild please tell me about all your raiding experience. And the ecounter I speak of does require multiple tanks but thiers 5 +++ encounters having 5 tanks isn't an option. Please don't post on things you have no experience with.<BR>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ratty31 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ratty31 wrote:</P> <P>If one guard isn't supposed to tank multiple +++ encounters then I can think of a couple raids that won't be doable. In brutal acts thiers 5+++ that need to be fought at the same time not sure how you can do that if one guard isn't "supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters".</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Why do i have flash backs of the Rathe encounter in PoEarth in EQlive here? Judging by your reply here you dont raid much or this is your first MMORPG.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There is no reason why you cant have 3 - 4 MA's while everyone assists <STRONG><U>one</U></STRONG> at a time, and kills them one at a time so then it doesnt take 5+ hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Gage is aboustely right, i dont think Guards or <STRONG><U>ANY</U></STRONG> Fighter class for that matter is suppose to tank multiple +++ epic encounters, it makes it so trivial its not even funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a good thing to have multiple tanks on a raid for mutliple mobs, it makes the game more fun and alot more challenging then just hitting auto attack and walking away or watching TV till its dead.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Your in a 3 man guild please tell me about all your raiding experience. And the ecounter I speak of does require multiple tanks but thiers 5 +++ encounters having 5 tanks isn't an option. Please don't post on things you have no experience with.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why does every one feel the need to play dectective? Since when was the amount of people in a guild of any importance? So i guess if my guild was a 60 man guild BUT was lvl 5 that would of been the next thing you would of attacked?</P> <P>I grow really tired of this elitest attitude that this game has in it, its a real joke lately.</P> <P>Too put your feeble mind at peace, i took 5 months off and came back to the game a week and a half ago to a empty guild..........and that i suppose means that i have never raided before hand simply because im in a 3 man guild :smileyindifferent:......before we made this guild when i left 5 months ago i was in the highest end raiding guild on Everfrost server.</P> <P>Please dont post on things unless you have the full facts........the way the game works now is going to be nothing but a mere shadow of its former self combat wise, its time to get use to sharing the load between the <STRONG><U>ENTIRE</U></STRONG> Fighter class, and there is one lot of people to thank for that........but your reply does answer one thing for me, you have very little raid experience.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:38 AM</span>

[Ratty31]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>but your reply does answer one thing for me, you have very little raid experience.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>08-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:38 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Is that how you end every post? I've main tanked every mob in the game and participated in 400+ raids according to my guilds DKP site. I'm gonna ask you this question again...Why are you posting about things you have no clue about? </DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ratty31 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>but your reply does answer one thing for me, you have very little raid experience.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>08-21-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>05:38 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Is that how you end every post? I've main tanked every mob in the game and participated in 400+ raids according to my guilds DKP site. I'm gonna ask you this question again...Why are you posting about things you have no clue about?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Did i say i had no clue? How do you know i have no clue? You dont, you dont know me from a bar of soap and ill welcome these combat changes with open arms, not sure how you will do though........not alot has changed since i left except Spiltpaw Expasion, thats about it which im currently catching up on.</P> <P>Time to embrace the time for change Ratty31, with your elitest attitude toward the rest of the Fighter class its like you are owed something, let me break it down for you, all those mobs you can Tank in the entire game over 400 raids like you put it, well guess what....with the right group set ups, the entire Fighter class can do it also now as it is with out the changes, after the changes we all only be able to do it better.</P> <P>Now what id like you to do, is think big picture, not about yourself and read this again :</P> <P></P> <HR> <P>-Aonein- wrote:</P> <DIV> <DIV>There is no reason why you cant have 3 - 4 MA's while everyone assists <STRONG><U>one</U></STRONG> at a time, and kills them one at a time so then it doesnt take 5+ hours.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think Gage is aboustely right, i dont think Guards or <STRONG><U>ANY</U></STRONG> Fighter class for that matter is suppose to tank multiple +++ epic encounters, it makes it so trivial its not even funny.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its a good thing to have multiple tanks on a raid for mutliple mobs, it makes the game more fun and alot more challenging then just hitting auto attack and walking away or watching TV till its dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2 things confuse me in your replys, <STRONG>1)</STRONG> You say that you dont see how a encounter like this is possible without one Guard multi tanking it, <STRONG>2)</STRONG> you then go onto to say that this encounter requires multiple tanking........:smileyindifferent: and to finish it off, why isnt 5 tanks a option? And what makes you think that after the combat changes go through that 5 tanks still wont be a option after it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>" If one guard isn't supposed to tank multiple +++ encounters then I can think of a couple raids that won't be doable. In brutal acts thiers 5+++ that need to be fought at the same time not sure how you can do that if one guard isn't "supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters".  "</STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Its called stratergy, ya know, something that is a bit more challenging then one guard multi tanking 5 mobs for the win.........like i said in my reply to that, i dont think its intended for <STRONG><U>ANY</U></STRONG> of the fighter class to one tank raids like this, notice i highlighted the any, as in Guard, Berserker, Pallie, SK, Bruiser, Monk.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not sure about you, but i hate trivial, trivial is boring, so you have tanked 400+ raids, good for you, are you willing to give anyone else a go after the changes? Or will you quit the moment your guild leader calls in a Bruiser, Monk or SK because you suddenly arent needed as MT?</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:22 AM</span>

[Ratty31]

Yep I said multiple tanks are required  with one guard tanking multiple encounters. Why can't 5 tanks do this? I'll let you think about healers, buffs, resists and maximum of 24 people in raid etc. and figure that one out. Should we have 30 tanks for motm?

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ratty31 wrote:<BR>Yep I said multiple tanks are required  with one guard tanking multiple encounters. Why can't 5 tanks do this? I'll let you think about healers, buffs, resists and maximum of 24 people in raid etc. and figure that one out. Should we have 30 tanks for motm? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But you see, you are currently talking about how the games works now which is clearly all broken and up @#^% creek with out a paddle which is the reason mulitple tanking at the current moment will not work, but we are talking big picture. </P> <P>The whole sha bang will be a different kettle of fish after the combat changes and having well balanced groups on raids with multiple tanking might just work, instead of the trivial 1 - 2 Guards, 5 - 7 healers and the rest utility / DPS = BORING.</P> <P>Ranger 1 says " Ill just watch television till we get him at 50%, then blow my power in less then 1 minute for some burst DPS, then go back to watching my show till we kill him ok? "</P> <P>Like that is any challenge to be proud off.</P> <P>I really hope SoE put some really well thought out raid material into the game after the combat changes, who knows they might even increase the amount of people needed on raids also which is a plus for every one. As it stands now ( I cant speak for Spiltpaw Raid content but i can for everything else except Darathar ) its all pretty basic stuff if you have come from strong raiding guilds from other games. Im not saying i wanted the extreme hard core stuff straight up, im just saying that multiple tanking in this game is going to happen wether people like it or not, and seeing there is 6 sub class's with whom to share it with, id be more inclined to say that there will be situations where different class's are going to be needed, and who knows, there might even be the ultimate raid challenge where the entire Fighter arch type is needed which would be a <STRONG><U>great</U></STRONG> thing to see, for everybody and a challenge to be proud off.</P>

[Nazo]

<P>umm so you believe combat changes will make multi tanks more viable on raids. Is that your hands on experience from your raid toon on Test Server ? Or are you plucking these out of your [Removed for Content] ? </P> <P>I have yet to see any indication from Combat Revamp that will have more tanks being usefull on raids. Care to share the source of your insight with us ?</P> <p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR> <P>umm so you believe combat changes will make multi tanks more viable on raids. Is that your hands on experience from your raid toon on Test Server ? Or are you plucking these out of your [Removed for Content] ? </P> <P>I have yet to see any indication from Combat Revamp that will have more tanks being usefull on raids. Care to share the source of your insight with us ?</P> <P>Message Edited by Nazowa on <SPAN class=date_text>08-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:47 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No im saying the combat changes will give the Dev team at SoE the ability to make multiple raid concepts. So you can speak for all the raid content that will be released with DoF, not to mention future expasion packs and adventure content can you Nazowa? You can basically read Dev's minds, is that waht your saying just from what you see on Test which everyone can see if they wanted too?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My insight is the big picture and the possibilitys that can arise from the content changes not to mention that the game will goto lvl 100 for adventurer and artisan, so we are only getting a taste at the moment.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It can only get better from here on in, its just a pity it took SoE 11 months to do it.</DIV>

[Airog]

<P>-Aonein- wrote "It can only get better from here on in"</P> <P>Bro, that is complete and utter BULL S***... Please do not even try to challenge SOE like that, saying stuff like that will jinx us. You must really know that SOE can, and does screw the game over quite alot sometimes. So I don't know why you said that, maybe you didn't think it through, but comeon, admit it, that is one of the worst statements on this thread.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Airoguy on <span class=date_text>08-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:20 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>There only doing what they advertised 11 months ago, which is all sub class's with in the arch type will be able to job across the board, do i agree with it being like that? No, but its the way they want there game to be, not much we can do about it but hope they make a better use out of us with in the arch type system.</P> <P>Well it sure as hell cant get any worse, so i can only see it getting better from here on in. SoE would be cutting there own throats if they made it any worse, even if it was only short term.</P>

[Nazo]

Fine I sure am sharing your wish and hope...

[Styk]

Do you know how boring pulsing in an out of wrath of fury is ? That [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is lame yo, same [Removed for Content] strat for every single raid mob currently in the game ( give or take one or two of them ) Rathe encounter in eq1 was prolly the funnest raid fight i ever had when i was on the first kill for it . It required massive cooperation between every class to make sure you did it right.... Esp the multiple tank aspect... I can concede that even I believe Guardians should be all around the BEST  raid tank, but cmon guys, if you want to be the ONLY raid tank then this game will become boring quick endgame wise.... I really dont think SoE wants a game like , I know i don't <div></div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Ratty31 wrote:</P> <P>If one guard isn't supposed to tank multiple +++ encounters then I can think of a couple raids that won't be doable. In brutal acts thiers 5+++ that need to be fought at the same time not sure how you can do that if one guard isn't "supposed to be tanking multiple +++ encounters".<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There are always new strategies waiting to be discovered.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ahh yeah gage u mean have like 3 guardians tank each mob seperatly right? while we have a monk in our group to buff us</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> JNewby wrote: <P>ahh yeah gage u mean have like 3 guardians tank each mob seperatly right? while we have a monk in our group to buff us</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nah.  But I also don't think its intended to have one player tank a huge dragon and all of its adds.  Seems kind of, I dunno, impossible to me.<BR>

[Ratty31]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> JNewby wrote: <P>ahh yeah gage u mean have like 3 guardians tank each mob seperatly right? while we have a monk in our group to buff us</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nah.  But I also don't think its intended to have one player tank a huge dragon and all of its adds.  Seems kind of, I dunno, impossible to me.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Impossible like riding giant birds or impossible like swimming through icy water in 200 pounds of armor?

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> JNewby wrote: <P>ahh yeah gage u mean have like 3 guardians tank each mob seperatly right? while we have a monk in our group to buff us</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Nah.  But I also don't think its intended to have one player tank a huge dragon and all of its adds.  Seems kind of, I dunno, impossible to me.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>yeah when I first started raiding  it seemed that way to me to... but heck on some mobs we split aggro... its just eq 2 isnt to friendly for that... with group taunts  and such... splitting healers.. having multiple tank groups... just kinda a pain 

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> JNewby wrote: <p>ahh yeah gage u mean have like 3 guardians tank each mob seperatly right? while we have a monk in our group to buff us</p> <hr> </blockquote>Nah.  But I also don't think its intended to have one player tank a huge dragon and all of its adds.  Seems kind of, I dunno, impossible to me. <div></div><hr></blockquote>As "impossible" as it seems, this is how the healing system in EQ2 makes things work, irrespective of the quality of the tank standing there with that huge dragon and all his adds chomping on him.  This mechanic of the game will remain until healers can heal multiple tanks with significantly more efficiency than they can heal a single tank.  With *careful* (read: easily broken) encounter design players may be forced to  adopt a multi-tank strategy when holding aggro on multiple targets becomes an issue, but the motivation to find a way to use as few tanks as possible will remain.   Gage,  I know you've been a champion of equalizing the tanking abilities of fighters, but the solution to your concerns lies with changing how heals work in this game, not the relative quality of tanks.  </span><div></div>

[Subtlekni]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Ratty31 wrote: Your in a 3 man guild please tell me about all your raiding experience. And the ecounter I speak of does require multiple tanks but thiers 5 +++ encounters having 5 tanks isn't an option. Please don't post on things you have no experience with. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Why does every one feel the need to play dectective? Since when was the amount of people in a guild of any importance? So i guess if my guild was a 60 man guild BUT was lvl 5 that would of been the next thing you would of attacked?</p> <p>I grow really tired of this elitest attitude that this game has in it, its a real joke lately.</p> <p>Too put your feeble mind at peace, i took 5 months off and came back to the game a week and a half ago to a empty guild..........and that i suppose means that i have never raided before hand simply because im in a 3 man guild :smileyindifferent:......before we made this guild when i left 5 months ago i was in the highest end raiding guild on Everfrost server.</p> <p>Please dont post on things unless you have the full facts........</p><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class="date_text">08-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:38 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> People feel they need to do detective work because this forum is full of people making wild claims, and backing it up with "I've got the experience, I'd done these raids, and I know what I'm talking about".   A lot of these people on this forum do, but a lot are what you might call posers.   I'm willing to listen to someones opinion about something, but if they use the argument of Hey, I've been there, I've done that, listen to me.... then well I get irritated. So, the full facts, doing a bit of detective work of my own: </span> <div>On 12-11 he was a monk.Some time between 12-11 he retired the monk and started a zerker.As a zerker:On 1-14 he was lvl 31On 1-23 he was lvl 33on 1-29 he was lvl 35on 2-4 he was lvl 37On 2-24 he was lvl 40On 3-14 he was lvl 44On 3-31 he was level 45On 4-02 he was level 46.Back on 4-6 he was explaining how guardians can have 15,000 hps while raid buffed.4-8 he had a lvl 47 tag.4-12 Lost souls was created.4-12 Joined Lost SoulsOn 4-15 he had a few people in his guild (lost Souls)Started playing World of warcraftOn 4-26 he had been away for a few weeks.This is a critical time, because between 4-15 (when he had just a few people, and 5-02 when his guild was one of the highest end raiding guild on the Everfrost server) He then took 5 months off, and came back to a guild with only 3 peeps.  I assuem he got his street creds during this time, between 4-8 when he was 47, 4-15 when he had a guild with a few people in it looking for more, and 8-07 when he came back. Unless of course he got his creds between 8-07 and 8-24.Didn't post from 5-02 until 8-07Posted on 8-07 that he was back, after trying to free his mind from all the negative feed back the game was taking 8 months ago.</div> <div>On 8-20 he posted that: "As it stands now (I cant speak for SPlitpaw Raid content but I can for everythign else except Darathar) it's all pretty basic stuff if you have come from strong raiding guilds from other games. --As an aside he has done a heck of a lot of work getting bug lists compiled for zerkers, but I really just can figure out where he got all of his raid experience (Cauldron Hollow?).   You don't have to have 400 raids under your belt to express an opinion, heck I offer advice and feedback all the time and I consider myself to be very much a newbie when it comes to raiding, but if you are gonna claim to have EQ2 raid exp, you probably shouldn't lie about it. All I'm saying. </div> <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Corvan wrote: <P><SPAN>Gage,  I know you've been a champion of equalizing the tanking abilities of fighters, but the solution to your concerns lies with changing how heals work in this game, not the relative quality of tanks.  </SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, I know.  I agree too.  I'm not trying to fault guardians at all for their ability to manage and hold multiple raid mobs.  I just wish it'd be fixed.  Whether its through healers, or tanks, or both.  The dynamic just doesn't seem very plausible, and I guess the biggie for me is it just isn't very fun.  Oh look there is 25 dragons, no worries, Noah can handle it.</P> <P>I mean I love Noah to death, he is a great tank and a great guy, but if we are facing something like that we should use some strategy, not keep Noah up beat on this one, then that one, ad nauseum.<BR></P>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gage-Mikel wrote:</P> <P>I mean I love Noah to death, he is a great tank and a great guy, but if we are facing something like that we should use some strategy, not keep Noah up beat on this one, then that one, ad nauseum.<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>mmm so even after combat revamp and Fighter Balance Noah tanks all ? Bah.....to me that sounds like a solid proof that it wasnt Guardian uberness that was making game a bit boring at top end ? Could it be umm total lack of imagination on Soe designers part or their limitations of combat engine ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Looks like nerfing Guardian won't be adding to the fun other Fighter classes are getting from the game ? Maybe time to look for the real culprit now ?</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:46 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Subtleknife wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ratty31 wrote:<BR><BR>Your in a 3 man guild please tell me about all your raiding experience. And the ecounter I speak of does require multiple tanks but thiers 5 +++ encounters having 5 tanks isn't an option. Please don't post on things you have no experience with.<BR><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why does every one feel the need to play dectective? Since when was the amount of people in a guild of any importance? So i guess if my guild was a 60 man guild BUT was lvl 5 that would of been the next thing you would of attacked?</P> <P>I grow really tired of this elitest attitude that this game has in it, its a real joke lately.</P> <P>Too put your feeble mind at peace, i took 5 months off and came back to the game a week and a half ago to a empty guild..........and that i suppose means that i have never raided before hand simply because im in a 3 man guild :smileyindifferent:......before we made this guild when i left 5 months ago i was in the highest end raiding guild on Everfrost server.</P> <P>Please dont post on things unless you have the full facts........</P> <P>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <SPAN class=date_text>08-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>05:38 AM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></SPAN> <DIV><BR>This is a critical time, because between 4-15 (when he had just a few people, and 5-02 when his guild was one of the highest end raiding guild on the Everfrost server) He then took 5 months off, and came back to a guild with only 3 peeps.  I assuem he got his street creds during this time, between 4-8 when he was 47, 4-15 when he had a guild with a few people in it looking for more, and 8-07 when he came back. </DIV><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>More people playing guessing games i see, ahhh isnt it great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please in all your detective work which i might add you arent too good at, point out where i said Lost Souls was the highest end raiding guild on the server. Before we made Lost Souls i was in a Guild called Blood & Ice which was the highest end raiding guild on the server, Core came up not long after and it started to be a race to contested mobs, after awhile people in Blood & Ice couldnt hack it and started to quit. We stayed in B & I for another month or two to see how things would pan out, I left at one stage and free lanced for awhile then got a tell one day from a very good friend who was a officer in B & I told me had become leader and was rebuilding because alot of officers were trying to rebuild the guild but it just wasnt working, too much drama with Core mainly and nit picking in the guild. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>After that, the wife and I decided to do something of our own and make our own guild, well at this point i had lost intrest in the game because of people like this guy thinking he knows everything when he clearly doesnt know jack %^&^#.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt completely quit i came back to the boards once a month maybe, to check on how the game was going cause i still liked the game and was checking on the combat changes. After awhile Blood & Ice rolled in with one of Three highest raiding guilds on the server atm which is called The Horde, then you have VEA and Arirang. Since ive been back ive been invited to The Horde and VEA but i havent joined them because the wife is hell bent on building up Lost Souls for some unknown reason......must be a woman thing :smileywink:.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So please if your going to state facts about me, please do your best to get them all and dont try pretend you know me or think you know me, cause you just make a fool of yourself. Also please do enlighten me as to where i run my mouth stating everything ive done or i been there, i done that crap? You cant, because i dont do that or have ever done that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nice try Subtleknife but no cigar son, hope this teachs you not to leave stuff out when prying into other peoples business which i find quite distasteful and a tad harrasing.</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:40 PM</span>

[Aven Elonis]

<P>For those that are wondering who the new main tank will be, check out  <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=14059" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=14059</A></P> <P>Clarion Call (aggro over time)- equal to about 4 of my Adept 3 aggro spells</P> <P>Put a highest DPS guy or two with Pally and have him cast Sigil of Heroism or Redemption or Amends.</P> <P>Seriousily, I'd love to see a writeup for Guardians like this one for pallies. Or just a side by side comparison of spell shots of spells so we can make a better informed decision on whether the changes seem reasonable or not.</P> <P>Aven Elonis</P> <P>50 Guardian</P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Aven Elonis on <span class=date_text>08-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:35 AM</span>

[Macross_JR]

<span><blockquote><hr>Aven Elonis wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>For those that are wondering who the new main tank will be, check out  <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=14059" target="_blank">http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=10&message.id=14059</a></p> <p>Clarion Call (aggro over time)- equal to about 4 of my Adept 3 aggro spells</p> <p>Put a highest DPS guy or two with Pally and have him cast Sigil of Heroism or Redemption or Amends.</p> <p>Seriousily, I'd love to see a writeup for Guardians like this one for pallies. Or just a side by side comparison of spell shots of spells so we can make a better informed decision on whether the changes seem reasonable or not.</p> <p>Aven Elonis</p> <p>50 Guardian</p> <p>Message Edited by Aven Elonis on <span class="date_text">08-25-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:35 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>The problem is that most of all the upper lvl guardians on beta belong to raiding guilds and want to keep all the nice info for the guild itself to give it a step above the others in knowledge.  I know I have only talked with the guardians in my guild about guardian changes.</span><div></div>

[Urglu]

<DIV>The change and upgrade to the HTL ability makes up for any taunt improvements the other classes get, don't worry.</DIV>

[RukEvo]

<span><blockquote><hr>Macross_JR wrote:<span><blockquote></blockquote>The problem is that most of all the upper lvl guardians on beta belong to raiding guilds and want to keep all the nice info for the guild itself to give it a step above the others in knowledge.  I know I have only talked with the guardians in my guild about guardian changes.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote></span>I am not trying to flame you Githil but, that is quite the elitist attitude.  We would like to hear some information on what our new spells are, how we tank, are we still viable as Raid tanks etc.  People keeping things like that to themselves is kind of childish if you ask me.  Anyway if you have any information I am sure myself and the rest of the Guardian community would appreciate hearing it. Thanks <span></span> <div></div>

[Subtlekni]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote: <div>More people playing guessing games i see, ahhh isnt it great.</div> <div> </div> <div>Please in all your detective work which i might add you arent too good at, point out where i said Lost Souls was the highest end raiding guild on the server. <font color="#ff0000">Before we made Lost Souls i was in a Guild called Blood & Ice which was the highest end raiding guild on the server, Core came up not long after and it started to be a race to contested mobs, after awhile people in Blood & Ice couldnt hack it and started to quit. We stayed in B & I for another month or two to see how things would pan out, I left at one stage and free lanced for awhile then got a tell one day from a very good friend who was a officer in B & I told me had become leader and was rebuilding because alot of officers were trying to rebuild the guild but it just wasnt working, too much drama with Core mainly and nit picking in the guild. </font></div> <div><font color="#ff0000"> </font></div> <div><font color="#ff0000">After that, the wife and I decided to do something of our own and make our own guild, well at this point i had lost intrest in the game because of people like this guy thinking he knows everything when he clearly doesnt know jack %^&^#.</font></div> <div> </div> <div>I didnt completely quit i came back to the boards once a month maybe, to check on how the game was going cause i still liked the game and was checking on the combat changes. After awhile Blood & Ice rolled in with one of Three highest raiding guilds on the server atm which is called The Horde, then you have VEA and Arirang. Since ive been back ive been invited to The Horde and VEA but i havent joined them because the wife is hell bent on building up Lost Souls for some unknown reason......must be a woman thing :smileywink:.</div> <div> </div> <div>So please if your going to state facts about me, please do your best to get them all and dont try pretend you know me or think you know me, cause you just make a fool of yourself. Also please do enlighten me as to where i run my mouth stating everything ive done or i been there, i done that crap? You cant, because i dont do that or have ever done that.</div> <div> </div> <div>Nice try Subtleknife but no cigar son, hope this teachs you not to leave stuff out when prying into other peoples business which i find quite distasteful and a tad harrasing.</div><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class="date_text">08-25-2005</span> <span class="time_text">05:40 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote>My bad. I totally undertand now.  For months back before you were level 47, or maybe for 4 days after you turned level 48, you were in the top raiding guild on the server.   That's when you got your top end raid experience.   My bad. Thanks for setting me straight.  As for the raid experince comment </span> Koenig suggested you might not have any (no shame in not having any serious top end raid experience) but you choose to bring up your top end guild raid experience.   I fully acknowledge you might have spent months in the top end raid guild on your server.  I'm just really curious how many top end raid guilds take people under 40 on top end raids. Heck I'm even curious how many lvl 45 Zerkers get to do top end raiding.   What level were you the first time you did Zalek? Vanudozalon the Elusive?  Not top end mobs for sure, but by all means set me straight.   There is a lot I don't know.   Enlighten me. Heck, for that matter would you like to cite some of your raid expereince?  Put me in my place, please. <div></div>

[knightinplaid]

<P>I'm seeing alot of confidence in guards remaining the highest damage taker after the revamp so maybe someone can fill me in on what I'm overlooked. </P> <P>-All plate fighters have the same mitigation values on their defensive stances</P> <P>-Braksan's mitigation is going away with the training skills</P> <P>-Commanding Presence and Anchor lines mitigation are both short duration (30sec 1:30 recast)</P> <P>-Kite and Tower shields blocking at the same rate (not really mitigation I know)</P> <P>I'm pretty sure I'll be tanking raids still in a few weeks from now but I'm just not seeing the huge advantage over the other plate tanks that some guys are still claiming. Point me in the right direction?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>