Combat Changes - will guardians be the primary maintank still?

[SirDra]

<DIV>I keep asking myself this question over and over and over. Does anyone have a answer?</DIV>

[sylvo]

No-one can know the answer to that until they see the after effects of the combat changes and spell/skill revamps. However I am pretty positive the guardian community will kick up a sufficeintly large stink if we get relegated to "granting our defense to others". Farhane. <div></div>

[Nazo]

<P>Hypothesis 1</P> <P>Encounters will be tuned so that it will be worthwhile to use different Fighters as MT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Fine and dandy ! I won't begrudge another class MTing if it is actually gonna help my Guild for some encounters.</FONT></P> <P>Hypothesis 2</P> <P>Guardians will be nerfed to a sufficiently low level so the rest of the Fighters don't complain much then it will be based Raid Leader Decision and players personal skills.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Strongly suspecting this will be the result of the Combat Revamp.</FONT></P> <P>Hypothesis 3</P> <P>Guardians will be nerfed so much that it wll be NECESSARY to use other classes as MT.</P><FONT color=#ffff00> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As a SoE veteran I wouldn't be surprised since lots of other classes and some Guardians are asking for it.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P></FONT> <DIV>Take your pick :smileyvery-happy:</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:35 AM</span>

[aislynn00]

<DIV>I, too, was originally worried about the whole notion of granting my defense to others.  However, having had time to give matters more thought, some of my concerns have been laid to rest.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SOE's rationale for nerfing guardians and improving all other fighter sub-classes is that <EM>all</EM> fighters should be desirable as main tanks.  That, in itself, implicitly states that guardians will remain wanted as tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That we will be able to grant our defense to other classes may imply that we could end up with a secondary support role when not main-tanking.  Do note, however, nowhere has it been stated that guardians aren't able to bestow their defense, whatever that means, onto <EM>other</EM> guardians or that they themselves <EM>lose</EM> any defense bestowed.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Consider that guardians are the preferred main tank sub-class primarily because of their HP and Defense advantages; as far as mitigation goes, they aren't significantly ahead of berserkers or crusaders.  Furthermore, anyone in a guardian's group already enjoys all of his Defense buffs as well as most of the HP/Stamina ones.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And yet, guardians are still main-tanking, even though a berserker could do the same, with better aggro generation, while enjoying a guardian's Defense and HP buffs.  Why?  Probably because you don't want two fighters in the main tank group; you want an extra healer or resistance buffer.  Nothing will change in that regard, I'd say, except in those cases where you really want a tank with a specific damage resistance; in such situations, we may see a guardian acting as support buffer in the main tank group; in any other situation, I doubt that will be the case.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere<BR>Leader of Elysian Dawn<BR>Lucan D'Lere</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:05 AM</span>

[Urglu]

<DIV>I always thought a Serker could do almost as well as my Guardian if he had my Def. buffs, but we have tried it on some "easier" raid mobs, and the ones with large melee attacks smashed him to bits.  Not sure if it's the small self only buffs that made such a difference or if there are hidden benefits we don't see, but there was a tangible difference in results despite very small differences in our various stats. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/shrug</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would find it highly entertaining if the monks who whined on this board wound up needing Guardians giving them defense to MT the raid mobs, and the Guardians in their guilds told them to go to hell.  </DIV>

[Raahl]

I am concerned about the upcoming changes and have been trying to get more information from Moorgard on this.  No luck yet.

[Uumuuanu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would find it highly entertaining if the monks who whined on this board wound up needing Guardians giving them defense to MT the raid mobs, and the Guardians in their guilds told them to go to hell.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Guardians will become nothing more then freaky buff bots if the monks have thier way about it, especially Gage.   Honestly I for one have said it and will say it again,  TANKS DO NO WEAR PAJAMAS.   Sony can't understand that, Monks can't understand that and it seems that the only ones that can are guardians.  I can't wait for these combat changes to come into play.  Why you ask?  Because I retired tanking and decided that armorning is where the money is since raids will be wiping so often they will have to have 2, 3 maybe even 4 sets of armor with them in order to complete mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians will be hosed, we know that, you simply can't be too good in the game or people whine about it, whether because of your class, your abilities, you are an awesome guild or anything else.  Guardians will take the frontal blow on the nerf bat to save everyone else from it, but hey thats what we do, take the hits for others.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Stand strong people,  take the hit and then let the jammie heads die so you can laugh when they get splattered in seconds.  Laugh with me people, cause everyone is laughing now, guardians will have the last laugh in the end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Lyrus]

Actually, if you've seen Gaige lately, he's not wearing pajamas, silly, he's streaking across most of permafrost showing his man-[Removed for Content]. <div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR> <P>Hypothesis 1</P> <P>Encounters will be tuned so that it will be worthwhile to use different Fighters as MT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Fine and dandy ! I won't begrudge another class MTing if it is actually gonna help my Guild for some encounters.</FONT></P> <P>Hypothesis 2</P> <P>Guardians will be nerfed to a sufficiently low level so the rest of the Fighters don't complain much then it will be based Raid Leader Decision and players personal skills.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Strongly suspecting this will be the result of the Combat Revamp.</FONT></P> <P>Hypothesis 3</P> <P>Guardians will be nerfed so much that it wll be NECESSARY to use other classes as MT.</P><FONT color=#ffff00> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As a SoE veteran I wouldn't be surprised since lots of other classes and some Guardians are asking for it.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P></FONT> <DIV>Take your pick :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Nazowa on <SPAN class=date_text>07-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:35 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>If theory #2 is true I know a lot of guardians on my server that will be on the unemployment line, I highly doubt that will be the case.  Guardians have the best defense buffs in the game and I remember Moorgaurd saying that we would still have the highest amount of taunts (if that means anything) I just think there will be more situations coming about where you would need the other tank classes over a guardian.</P> <P>I'm sure the nerfing we get won't be as bad as let's say a berserker or a sk.</P> <p>Message Edited by Shizzirri on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:31 AM</span>

[Szy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR> <P>Hypothesis 1</P> <P>Encounters will be tuned so that it will be worthwhile to use different Fighters as MT.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Fine and dandy ! I won't begrudge another class MTing if it is actually gonna help my Guild for some encounters.</FONT></P> <P>Hypothesis 2</P> <P>Guardians will be nerfed to a sufficiently low level so the rest of the Fighters don't complain much then it will be based Raid Leader Decision and players personal skills.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Strongly suspecting this will be the result of the Combat Revamp.</FONT></P> <P>Hypothesis 3</P> <P>Guardians will be nerfed so much that it wll be NECESSARY to use other classes as MT.</P><FONT color=#ffff00> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As a SoE veteran I wouldn't be surprised since lots of other classes and some Guardians are asking for it.</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P> </P></FONT> <DIV>Take your pick :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Nazowa on <SPAN class=date_text>07-19-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:35 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Hypothesis 4:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Play the game how u like untill the revamp.  See what SOE does with it.   If your still having fun as a tank class, hooray for u.  If not, aspire for a post count of 4k plus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>personally, im gonna be patient and see what happans.  All the speculation and hypothesis do nothing for me.  If my guard is fun and usefull, meaning If My guild still needs him to tank, secondary buff, help with quests, help others xp to 50, or whatever ill play him, because its fun, not because of what i can or cant do.  If it turns out my guard totally sucks [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] ill play something different that i will have fun playing and can help my guild in whatever is needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a very hard time understanding why people get all worked up about letting another class tank.  I personally have no issues with it.  If the best choice for anything is a monk, or paly, or whatever tanking, meaning my group/guild will be victorious and enjoy the rewards, who cares who tanks.  The acheivements of my group/raid is what i think is all about, thats what make me proud.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>szydd</DIV>

[blueduckie]

We wont know for sure until the certain classes having bonus over specific type of mobs comes live on what exactly that is. Our mitigation will still be the highest which i personally feel is gonna be the most important thing on raiding. I cant see our hp not still being the best. Possibly a zerker can match it. However with our mitigation buffs improved taunting supposbly and still having high to same as highest possible unless you are just out matched in gear i cant see any instance where a guardian cant mt and wont be the preferred. I can see guilds when getting used to a mob using any type of tank to tank it from the change becuase i have a feeling from parses will see them taking with in 10-20% of same dps. Gear will most likely make a huge difference in tanking over anything else in comparison of fighters after revamp. Is what I am expecting at least.

[Grond]

<DIV> <DIV>I'm willing to wait till the combat changes.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That said, the day I'm buffing a Monk to pull Hard Raid Mobs (not Drayeks/CL/Feerott/x2 mobs) on a regular basis is the day I quit the game without looking back. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Grondax Ix'Thania of the Shard</DIV> <DIV>Level 50 Guardian / Level 50 Woodworker</DIV> <DIV>Guild Leader and Main Tank of Genesis on Highkeep</DIV>

[Jay]

<P>While my experience is admittedly very limited on the guardian front, I just don't see us being relegated to some kind of backup role. I'm reading a lot of Chicken-Little perspectives on these threads, and I'm really surprised at the extreme reactions and speculation going on... people seem to be one step away from throwing out their characters based on nothing more than a loose set of assumptions about nerfs. A guardian is a guardian, no combat "rebalancing" can completely change that - we're designed for a purpose, and that purpose simply cannot change at this point. </P> <P>Will we be the ONLY viable option for and MT? No, probably not, and I guess if you feel that it's our "right" to always be the MT for every group... well, maybe you do indeed have something to be worried about. It may be easier for pallys or zerkers or even monks to fill that role - if so, more power to 'em. I don't have a problem with it, b/c I think it will require a different strategy or lineup to adjust to that change. I do not think you're going to easily rotate any fighter class into the MT spot and have everything else stay static and expect the same results. For example, if you put a zerker as MT, the group or raid strat / lineup might have to shift from more DPS to more tank support and healing, b/c that zerker is likely to take more damage and won't have the defensive buffs that we bring to the table. But they'd probably put out more damage than we would, so you might adjust accordingly. </P> <P>I hope the combat changes make everything more flexible for everyone. I want to see more viable configurations, not more rigid class roles. Maybe I'm alone in that, but I'm willing to wait and see before I start raising hell. </P>

[Axhine]

<DIV>I think the whole thing about letting everyone tank is crazy I mean just make a fighter class and be done with it do away with monks, SK, guardians everything just make it fighter and give us all the same crap and let everyone play tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I mean I played a guardian because I felt like I could give up the DPS and cool other stuff like SK evac pally heals/rez and the monk dps so that i could stand there and get the crap beat out of me...imo all the fighter classes as it stands now can play tank in a regular group with no problem which in turn is most of the game the raid content was not meant to have every class tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>From what I have seen or read on forums it appears we will still have the lowest DPS taking a big nerf to defense but yet still have the most taunts and grant defense to others...what this well really mean who knows time will tell...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However If you take our roll as main tank away from us in most end game raids what good or fun is a guardian?  The other classes as they stand now have lots of stuff that is neat and fun stuff guardian will just be hanging out and left out a lot imo.  As it stands now not much use for more then 1 or 2 guardians on raids anyway...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have a feeling we are going to get really nerfed hard and that they will make everything way to generic having unique classes that have specific roles is what makes games fun, and it really scares me that these changes could cause lots of people to quit playing...I hope and pray that I am wrong about what I see coming.  Maybe it will work out for the best time will tell...</DIV>

[SirDra]

<DIV>Well the only thing that makes me mad is I made a guardian to be the main tank. If i wanted to be a buff bot i would have been a corcer but i didn't. I just feel like i would be getting screwed hard since I made a character to do something specific and SOE is taking that away from me. Just seems messed up.</DIV>

[Rah]

<DIV>I will also wait to see what the changes bring to our class. I am seriously concerned over the whole guardians will now use their defense to boost other classes statement. I didnt choose my class so I could make fighter subclass" X" a better tank, I chose the class because it had the highest number of taunt's (have a better chance at keeping aggro), take damage (mitigate or avoid or whatever crazy comination the mechanics of the game bring) and in  a pinch protect a member of the group from being one rounded because circumstances have brought that player the attention of the mob beating on him. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt ask to do ninja flips to avoid damage all together</DIV> <DIV>I didnt ask to rank anywhere on the dps chain (other than enough to make the damage done somewhat competitive on the hate list)</DIV> <DIV>I didnt ask for utility that allows me to move to near anyhwere in a zone, rez fallen players, breath underwater, run faster, have a pet, ad nausuam)</DIV> <DIV>I didnt ask to make all other fighter classes SEEM sub par </DIV> <DIV>I asked to tank period., hold aggro and take damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I expected to be the best at it of the 6 subclasses. </DIV> <DIV>I didnt expect that the percieved disparity would drive the change that loom over us at present.</DIV> <DIV>I would hope that none of my abilitys I have now would be taking away from me since none of them let me do anything but tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is already tough to get to 50 compete for the one or two slots currently available for a guardian on encounters that drop masters so that you can get your gear to the point wear you have a resonalbe chance to tank the x4 mobs (ebon, fabled armor etc...) I am very concerned that this change will make that an even more difficult thing to accomplish.  But hey on a brighter note I could always be the defensive buff bot for the encounter MT and intervene when that flurry is overbearing and have my heart explode for that 7.6k hit.....ya then I wont even be concerend over fabled gear because it will just cost me more to get it repaired!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>frustrated</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rahge</DIV> <DIV>50 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Eternal Vortex</DIV> <DIV>Everfrost</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Grond]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SirDrake wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well the only thing that makes me mad is I made a guardian to be the main tank. If i wanted to be a buff bot i would have been a corcer but i didn't. I just feel like i would be getting screwed hard since I made a character to do something specific and SOE is taking that away from me. Just seems messed up.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Exactly.  Every MT for every raid guild looked at their choice of classes and said, "Guardian is obviously the MT class in this game."  I think that ends with a period that should yield no discussion.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly.  Every MT for every raid guild looked at their choice of classes and said, "Guardian is obviously the MT class in this game."  I think that ends with a period that should yield no discussion.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So what should the other five fighters do that raid.  Because plenty of us out there raid?  I suppose you think us outdamaging scouts and taking their spots is okay?</P> <P>I'm curious, really.<BR></P>

[Raahl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: <P>So what should the other five fighters do that raid.  Because plenty of us out there raid?  I suppose you think us outdamaging scouts and taking their spots is okay?</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't know, perhaps level their guardians?  As far as scouts go, that's their battle take it to the scout forum.  Please.</FONT></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'm curious, really.</P></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Why fake curiousity?  You just want to troll.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Gage, why come here an try and bait us?  Obviously we are taking the bait, which is bad on our part.  </FONT></P> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Anyway, as stated before Moorgard has stated that guardians will still be the preferred tank in most situations.  Now what percent does most equal?  Who knows.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR><BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I don't know, perhaps level their guardians?  As far as scouts go, that's their battle take it to the scout forum.  Please.</FONT></P> <P>Oh, I see.  So you *do* want one tank class, and all the statements about fighter diversity and the like are just a cover up?  Interesting.  As for letting the scouts take care of themselves?  Why should I?  I have many friends and guildies that play scouts, and my overpowered DPS sometimes replaces the need for them in game.  I care about them, not just myself.  Unfortunately I see you don't have the same trait...</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why fake curiousity?  You just want to troll.</FONT></P> <P>The only one trolling here is you, and your friends.  I'm posting unflammatory and uninsulting posts and replys that cater to and add to the topic of conversation.  Just because this is a forum about the guardian class, it doesn't give you exclusive rights to it, or BG would set up permissions to only allow viewing of this board by people with guardians on their account.  So quit trying to make me into something I'm not, just because you don't want competition or a balanced game, sir.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Gage, why come here an try and bait us?  Obviously we are taking the bait, which is bad on our part.</FONT></P> <P>I respond to posts that interest me.  I'm not trying to bait anyone.  As for the thread I got locked, it was my fault for not taking the link out when I edited it, as it was my intention to since I had copied the quote I wanted to.  I already pm'd Faar and got a response back, so I doubt its business of yours.  Its cool that you bring up 1 post that I made that broke the rules considering how many I have, eh?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Anyway, as stated before Moorgard has stated that guardians will still be the preferred tank in most situations.  Now what percent does most equal?  Who knows.</FONT></P> <P>Hopefully about the same percentage that prefer one of the other five classes <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:16 PM</span>

[Grond]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: <P>So what should the other five fighters do that raid.  Because plenty of us out there raid?  I suppose you think us outdamaging scouts and taking their spots is okay?<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Note this isn't how it is right now.  This is how I think it should be.</P> <P>Monk/Bruiser - DPS, FD, Mend like abilities, some debuff interrupt type attacks, and insane resist buffs (self and group).  If an assassin gets 500 DPS you should (with the same skill, level, and equipment get 400 DPS).  They could also have insane taunting ability to just steal aggro if they really wanted to (has it's uses).</P> <DIV>Pally - DPS, Heals, Lay of Hands, battle res, and tank buffs. (If assassin does 500, and monk does 400, Pally/sk should do 300)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SK - DPS, Wards, Harm Touch, DPS buffs/procs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Berserker - DPS, off tank, I see the zerker as sort of a D&D Barbarian.  He has abilities that make him and insane tank/dps for about 3 minutes.  Then he's absolutely worn out.  Have him take something like the vox adds and dominate.  Obviously not a good MT, however, because he'll burn out.  (Assuming the above he should be able to hit 600 DPS for about 30 seconds, then be debuffed at 200 DPS for about 5+ minutes (I'm not a balance person, just numbers).  If he doesn't use those types of abilities he should be around 400 DPS.)   He could also have a group haste buff like he has now.   That 600 -> 200 dps could be like a pally LoH or SK HT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian - Group Tank buffs.  Self Tank buffs.  Most taunts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd rather all 6 classes have their own abilities rather then all 6 classes being tanks and all 5 non-guardian classes additionally having their other cool abilities.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <P>Monk/Bruiser - DPS, FD, Mend like abilities, some debuff interrupt type attacks, and insane resist buffs (self and group).  If an assassin gets 500 DPS you should (with the same skill, level, and equipment get 400 DPS).  They could also have insane taunting ability to just steal aggro if they really wanted to (has it's uses).</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>So in other words... you want us to be scouts instead of fighters?<BR>

[Grond]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Gage-Mikel wrote:</P> <P>So in other words... you want us to be scouts instead of fighters?<BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I don't know of any scouts that have FD or Mend for one.  Inside a raid even you'll be better then scouts if you must tank.  Also, you asked about in a raid.  Outside a raid you'll be able to tank fine, if not more desirable then a guardian for fast exp groups. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see what I described sounding like a scout at all.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Grondax wrote: <DIV>I don't know of any scouts that have FD or Mend for one.  Inside a raid even you'll be better then scouts if you must tank.  Also, you asked about in a raid.  Outside a raid you'll be able to tank fine, if not more desirable then a guardian for fast exp groups. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't see what I described sounding like a scout at all.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well doing damage almost on par with the best scout while being able to tank xp groups and raids would be overpowered.</P> <P>Oh and btw, brigands get FD.  As do necros and SKs.</P> <P>Mend however, is a monk speciality.  Even though the bruiser heal is better.</P> <P>Maybe I took your description as that, because you didn't describe tanking ability at all, but utility and DPS... traits of the scout class.  Besides us doing 400dps to an assassin's 500dps would be overpowered like crazy.<BR></P>

[Athilna]

<P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>I’m reasonably confident that guardians will be ok at the end of the day raid-tank wise.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Best mostly, situationally other fighters have an edge in specific encounters.<SPAN>  </SPAN>The idea of seeing our pitiful melee dps further weakened is a concern for soloing/small groups, but happy to chill and see.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>What I don’t get is how SOE, and other MORG makers, have totally failed to manage the whole MT thing.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Verdana>In my view MTs fall into the same historical context as pulling and FD splitting – anomalies game designers didn’t really intend to drive games to the extent they do.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>MTing, like the other anomalies I have listed, simply isn’t realistic.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>What high IQ (sane) dragon would allow itself to be repetitively tricked by a loudmouth tank in full steel, but doing pitiful damage, when there are other nasty humans out there doing things like healing non stop, and casting nasty spells on you?</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>The answer is, of course, – none.<SPAN>  </SPAN>It’s a legacy of poor game design, and really there is no excuse for it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=3><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Verdana>And the solution is simple.<SPAN>  </SPAN>I mean amazingly simple.<SPAN>  </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>Introduce blocking/intercept/distraction skills that are a <EM>team</EM> activity.<SPAN>  </SPAN>A team of tanks are charged with the responsibility of containing the said dragon, rendering it relatively unable to attack the other members of your raid crew – if they succeed.<SPAN>  </SPAN>If they fail, the mob breaks out and splatters others in the crew, no doubt healers first, but maybe that irritating warlock first.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>The abilities need to interlace and be a combination of abilitys, actions, and mob/player placement.<SPAN>  </SPAN>Get the strategy or execution wrong and splat.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>Rulesets are introduced for using these defensive skills.<SPAN>  </SPAN>For example to activate the defensive perimeter, you must stand next to, and within x feet of, another tank on each side with a compatible ability.<SPAN>  </SPAN>You could even introduce HOs designed to contain / position /stun the monster.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>Healers could be given a mix of target and ‘tank-team’ heal spells.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>Theres an endless list of ways this could be achieved, an adaptation of the HO system is just one option.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>The system could also be developed to apply at the group level, enabling more than 1 tank to have genuine value, or even 1 tank plus 1 scout in some circumstances.</FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3></FONT> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana color=#ffffff size=3>This system would alleviate many problems on raids;</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT face=Verdana><SPAN><FONT size=3>-</FONT><SPAN>         </SPAN></SPAN><FONT size=3>don’t have 5 tanks looking on feeling redundant while one tank does all the work</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana><SPAN><FONT color=#ffffff><FONT size=3>-</FONT><SPAN>         </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000 size=3><FONT color=#ffffff>raises the tactical level and variation in raids</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana><FONT color=#000000 size=3><FONT color=#ffffff>-</FONT>        <FONT color=#ffffff>makes for a more diverse challenge for healers</FONT></FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT face=Verdana size=3></FONT> </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT face=Verdana><SPAN><FONT color=#000000><FONT size=3>-</FONT><SPAN>         </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000 size=3>provides a more varied and challenging roles for healers </FONT></FONT></P> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana></FONT></DIV>

[blueduckie]

<P>Here is where my main complaint is with you  Gaige. Other classes can tank raid content now. It is a matter of to what extent can and if they are allowed. If you look at eq1 paladins sk's had less dps than warriors at least all the ones in my guild had less than my warrior and was raid leader of 2nd guild to kill overlord mata muram( assent on maelin starpyre) Not only did they have less dps and  couldnt tank near as well from our better tanking aa's hp and defensive disc they still had needs on raids. Pinch aggro kiting paladins could heal group rez people etc. We found lots of uses for knights.</P> <P>Now this is not eq1 but the principle stands. Guardians should have the tanking advantage period. You even said in your own statement referring to scouts being dps. You pick fighters as being tanks and scouts as dps. Well scouts dont all do same dmg fighters shouldnt all tank the same period. Just because a guild doesnt allow other classes to tank shouldnt be pinned on there ability not to. The problem is what do they expect when so many fighters are played and 24 is raid limit. Arnt unlimited amounts of guilds out there to raid. Not all fighters gonna get to tank no matter how they change it mr gaige. Having the ability isnt gonna change much at all except when a mob is so easy a guardian says sure let them tank to someone wanting to. That is my take on how the changes will go. So all fighters taking a hit on dmg but i do not believe guardian will be able to actually boost tanking stats higher than itself i think it means protecting the other which may be found of good use after changes because there is no way to tell atm.</P> <P>The idea of all fighters will be tanking after revamp is pretty unrealistic. It will come entirely down to raid leaders. Drakem you shouldnt be worried about your role being replaced honestly.  Prolly will even out a little more how much dps fighters take on a mob i still expect guardians to have a small boost just from being a guardian since mitigation will be king after revamp IMO. However i expect if say current status after revamp. Take a guardian with full rare made armor and any other tank class with half rare made half fabled that other will tank a little better. That is my personally take on what revamp is doing. Gear will be holding main impact on tanking i believe and if scared of being replaced would plan ahead of keeping your gear above the others. Another thing that was said from fan faire was aggro will be cleaning up some. This means us having all those taunts should put our aggro above zerker if i read imbetween the lines right we will be aggro kings. SOE i believe is keeping our dps utility low for bumping us up on aggro and keeping us just as possibly good as any other can at tanking. That will make a big difference if needing to go full burn on a mob for the win.</P> <P>Nothing is set in stone yet but anyone who gets fighter info from Gaige i have learned is just taking info from a uninformed player. Fool thought we boosted our defense alone did not even know they where group buffs. Our avoidance comes from buffs that can be granted to anyone and people like gaige just dont understand this. They dont have a good concept on the class. He listens to people in his guild and make assumptions but doesnt actually know for himself. He just spews out garbage about a class he has no first hand experience with.</P> <P>Another thing. Unless i am blind have not seen them say they will be taking away any of our mitigation stuff and granting more to others or lowering our hp we get per sta to other classes thus meaning we will still have highest hp / mitigation and will negate us as preferred mt unless crazy out geard majority of time. Just my 2 cents but the revamp reminds me more and more of trying to make combat more like eq1 style with out the disc advantage warriors had - the warriors still would be the mt from hp / ac.</P> <P>Deretti</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <P>Fool thought we boosted our defense alone did not even know they where group buffs.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>/sigh</P> <P>I never said that, I said its easier for Guardians to get 100% avoidance than any other class.</P> <P>That's what I said. </P>

[blueduckie]

Which is by no means true gaige. Also said noah could hit 100% avoidance easier which is also untrue any class can even a enchanter can hit same avoidance specs as a guardian by defense

[SirDra]

<DIV>Well when there are suppose to be 6 classes in this game that are suppose to main tank, it makes no sense. Some fighter classes should be able to deal good dps, but i guess SOE disagress.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SirDrake wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well when there are suppose to be 6 classes in this game that are suppose to main tank, it makes no sense. Some fighter classes should be able to deal good dps, but i guess SOE disagress.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Basically most guardians think they should be MT and the other 5 should be scouts.  So why not just have one fighter class, right?<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR>Which is by no means true gaige. Also said noah could hit 100% avoidance easier which is also untrue any class can even a enchanter can hit same avoidance specs as a guardian by defense <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually it is true.  In a group a guardian will hit 100% avoidance before any other fighter would, unless the guardian is in the group with the other fighters.<BR>

[SirDra]

<DIV>Look at it from my point of view, I made a guardian to be the be-all-end-all-main-tank. I played beta and in beta Zerkers where DPS that is why i choose guardian over zerker. Changing stuff like this is going against the very reason i chose my class, and could be the same for alot of other people. I doubt you chose a monk to be a maintank gage. But with these combat changes hitting all other fighter classes very hard it seems like the only argument you have to make is since fighters cant do dps now they should all be tanks. Its a let down to the majority of fighters in the game that chose their class to do what they wanted. Im sure everyone had a hard time thinking about what class they wanted to be and what each class did. But now that decision you mad is all meaningless due to these huge changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like you make a templar one day you wake up the next and your a paladin, im sure everyone would be [Removed for Content] off.</DIV> <P>How people think it should be or shouldn't be means nothing, its just very upsetting that SOE is doing this to us.</P><p>Message Edited by SirDrake on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:47 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SirDrake wrote:<BR> <DIV>Look at it from my point of view, I made a guardian to be the be-all-end-all-main-tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>There isn't a be-all-end-all-main-tank in this game, as it would make the other five fighters useless in their primary archetype role.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changing stuff like this is going against the very reason i chose my class, and could be the same for alot of other people. I doubt you chose a monk to be a maintank gage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>If the reason you chose your class was to always be the best archetype for the maintank, despite the situation, you aren't very informed about how an archetype system works vs a class system.  Too bad.  As for me choosing my class to tank, I didn't at first, because this is my first "grouping" MMO (I came from solo friendly SWG) but as I read and informed myself on how the game worked (around lvl 6 or so) I did start tanking from there.  So yes, I play a monk to tank.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But with these combat changes hitting all other fighter classes very hard it seems like the only argument you have to make is since fighters cant do dps now they should all be tanks. Its a let down to the majority of fighters in the game that chose their class to do what they wanted. Im sure everyone had a hard time thinking about what class they wanted to be and what each class did. But now that decision you mad is all meaningless due to these huge changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>SOE has stated since almost 18 months PRIOR to release that the fighter subclasses primary role in this game is to tank, and the scout subclasses primary role is to do melee damage.  So its okay if they feel let down dude to their decisions.  That'd be like if I chose a templar to tank, I'd be let down by my choice, but unfortunately templar tanking isn't a design function of EQ2.  We were never intended to do DPS at the rate we were, I've been telling people that since December, it isn't my fault no one listened.  So of course I ask to be made a better tank, since I'm a fighter, and in this game that makes me a tank.  Whether you like it or not, matters none.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its like you make a templar one day you wake up the next and your a paladin, im sure everyone would be [Removed for Content] off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>It isn't like that at all.  SOE is simply fixing the subclasses to better perform the primary role of their archetype, something we should have been doing since launch.</FONT></DIV> <P>How people think it should be or shouldn't be means nothing, its just very upsetting that SOE is doing this to us.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Its upsetting that SOE is fixing the game?  I guess, if you have a mentality where you deserve to be the best despite what it means for all the thousands of players playing the other five fighters.  Quit being selfish and learn to adapt and share your role... oh wait, I mean our role.  The fighters role is to MT, not the guardian.  Get over it.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Tyrion]

<P>Basically, the way I see it, is that Guardian DPS is very low. Low damage should = High Defence and/or High Utility. Usually it's one or the other in EQ2. Enchanters/Bards I see as low damage/high utility, and Guardians are low damage/high defence. All the other fighters classes slide on the scale, with damage increasing at a relative penalty to defence. I just can't see any other Fighter class, of whom all do more damage then Guardians, having equal defence. I ~do~ think they should all be able to tank Darather, and all those other crazy raid mobs I only hear about and have never seen, but just not as effectively as a Guardian.</P> <P>If this combat revamp makes all tanks more viable for raiding, but still leaves Guardians as the preferred MT, I'll be happy. But if Guardians are left with crappy DPS, and every other tank is JUST as good a tank as "we" are, there will be very little reason to log in. </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote:<BR> <P>If this combat revamp makes all tanks more viable for raiding, but still leaves Guardians as the preferred MT, I'll be happy. <FONT color=#ffff00>But if Guardians are left with crappy DPS, and every other tank is JUST as good a tank as "we" are, there will be very little reason to log in.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fighters are tanks.  All of us.  This will be made even more so after the revamp.  If after the revamp Guardians are better tanks in every situation, despite by how much, then SOE needs to delete the other five subclasses.</P> <P>As we will become inferior DPS and inferior tanks, and cease to have a reason to exist in game.</P> <P>So just as easily as you suggest that if guardians aren't the best tank, there is no reason to play them, I suggest that if they are, there is no reason to play the other five fighters.<BR></P>

[Tyrion]

<P>I know you're preaching equality Gage, but that will never ever be true. It's just too difficult to achieve in a game that's contantly changing. If all Fighters end up "tanking" equally, then give us all equal DPS. Is that too much to ask for? I'm curious if that's what you're trying to point out actually.</P> <p>Message Edited by Tyrion on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 AM</span>

[Gaige]

I'm not saying totally equal at all.  I'm saying interchangeable despite differences and varied subclass excellence depending on the situation.  That's all.

[Drulak]

<P>In reality most people who wanted to tank , whether that be raid or group , chose a guardian or zerker . If you chose a monk , it was clear at the time that monk's where not MT char's , so why change it now.</P> <P>Secondly  a TANK is a heavily armoured vehicle that is easy to hit , but hard to damage - i certainly would not want to go to war with a very fast and agile tank with tarpaulin as armour. It might be so quick it could dodge bullets , but i want a heavy armoured tank i could hide behind. </P> <P>TBH though , i really do not understand the fuss , if u want to tank so much - tank , if you think your class can't tank - lets make other fighter classes better , not make guards worse. I really hate tanking , it's so boring just taunting buffing - i love being MA , why do other fighters have to be MT to exist ??</P><p>Message Edited by Drulak on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:25 PM</span>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote:<BR> <P>If this combat revamp makes all tanks more viable for raiding, but still leaves Guardians as the preferred MT, I'll be happy. <FONT color=#ffff00>But if Guardians are left with crappy DPS, and every other tank is JUST as good a tank as "we" are, there will be very little reason to log in.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fighters are tanks.  All of us.  This will be made even more so after the revamp.  If after the revamp Guardians are better tanks in every situation, despite by how much, then SOE needs to delete the other five subclasses.</P> <P>As we will become inferior DPS and inferior tanks, and cease to have a reason to exist in game.</P> <P>So just as easily as you suggest that if guardians aren't the best tank, there is no reason to play them, I suggest that if they are, there is no reason to play the other five fighters.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>No, because tanking does not stack in raids or groups.  If a entire archtype is devoted to a job that does not stack, then entire archtype is broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, the fighter archtype is balanced via DPS.   Sony will break the game if they try to stuff the entire archtype into the role of "tank".   The role of tanking does not stack in this game like DPS and healing.   Until sony can find a way to make it stack, it will not work.  Imagine if only 1 healer could heal in a group or raid.  Why would you want 5 classes of healers?  you wouldnt.  Imagine if only 1 mage could nuke during a raid.  Why would you want 6 classes of nukers?  you wouldnt.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same goes with tanking.  Making tanking stack would require creativity that SONY does not possess.     Indeed, they have not even said they understand the problem exists.   Until the problem of tank stacking is addressed, having 6 classes become tanks is a stupid and broken idea, that would result in a broken game.    /shrug</DIV><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:51 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<P>We can argue this back and forth till eternity.</P> <P>The only thing we know is that Moorgard stated that in most cases we will.  Now whether or not this ends up being true?  We won't know till the changes go live.</P> <P>It's not looking good to me.  I give us a 40% chance to be MT's after the changes. </P> <P>Then again most statistics are made up 78.5% of the time.  :smileywink:</P>

[Shizzirri]

<P>The only situation where a guardian is the best tank is where you are in a raid situation and you are tanking a triple up mob that cons yellow or higher.  If you made a guardian because you want to tank big named I don't think this upcoming combat change patch will dissappoint you.</P> <P>There aggro sucks in single group situations and in most exp groups people tend to prefer a berserker or a crusader type.  Guardian aggro is far too shaky in single group situations especially when theres no templar.</P>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>lets define tank role and their jobs for a sec:</P> <P>1. Hold agroe </P> <P>2. Try to take as less damage as possble to stay up during raids / groups etc this is done by gear!</P> <P> </P> <P>Now lets see how tanks of the classes hold agroe ill start wiht their most important way of holding agroe to my knowledge:</P> <P>1. guardian = Taunts + Group buffs + DPS ( very tiny DPS)</P> <P>2. Zerker = Taunts + Group buffs + DPS (a lotta DPS) ....(this is why zerkers are best at agroe control currently!</P> <P>3. Monk = DPS + group buffs + Taunts (taunts are very weak for monks) (correct me if i am wrong gage)</P> <P>4. Bruiser = DPS + group buffs + Taunts (same as monks i think)</P> <P>5. Paladin = Group buffs + Hate transfers + DPS + Taunts </P> <P>6. Shadowknight = Group Buffs + DPS + Hate transfers + Taunts</P> <P>Now power wise usage of holding agroe = in this order 1. Zerker 2. Guardian 3. Paladin 4. Monk 5. Bruiser 6. Shadowknights</P> <P>So currently Zerkers are Best in this section but they lack tha defense! guards get if same race same traits etc etc!</P> <P>Now they nerfing DPS on ALL fighters! this will not matter to a guardian since our DPS sucked anyways for a zerker this is really bad they might get in trouble to keep agroe after the revamp till they figured out how to do it again! but it will be closer to the guardian way thenzerker way since DPS is gonna suck anyways.</P> <P>The precious monk class gage is going down with DPS a lot now check unless if i was misinformed about the way ya hold agroe and yer taunts etc how ya keep agroe. for as far as i know yer group buffs arent great either some selfavoidance buffs but none like the zerker anarchy or the commanding presence line guards get! No DPS for monks IS A USELESS CLASS!</P> <P>You wont be able to hold agroe anymore after yer DPS drops scouts will kick yer butt and even chanters will win in the dps department vs monks and bruisers and if ya wont be able to hold agroe after revamp then why woudl they ever wanna let ya be MT on a raid sicne yer always talking about a raid. And ya wont get invited to raids cause yer DPS will not be worth the slot unless ya got a guild (*which ya probably have) who will put up with a useless slot. </P> <P>I dont feel sorry one bit for monk class if they wont be happy after revamp i wont even get into point two since thast kinda clear!</P> <P>I do feel sorry for them zerkers and SK's + pallies even bruisers they picked their classes for certain reasons which you dont seem to comprehend and the way ya responded to an earlier post that was kinda a flame towards ya proves this!</P> <P>Sure i want Soe to fix the game Sure i want fighters to be interchangeable but i also want my class to be classdefining and different better in some areas weaker in others for gaurds better at defense weaker at offense. For monks it could be well in my eyes should be less in defense better at avoidance (ok ill give ya that one) avoidance currently doesnt work or hardly works on epic mobs of same lvl, and yer monk should be good at the way ya hold agroe THUS DPS!</P> <P>But i am gonna stop this post cause its making me ......... Just plz Gage think about what ya been asking all these months and realize what yer gonna get in return if ! USE YER FREAKING TRANQUIL MONK BRAIN!</P> <P>PS: GAGE DO NOT POST AFTER REVAMP THAT YER CLASS SUCKS IT DOESNT SUCK SOE HAS INTENDED IT THAT WAY, NOONE ON THESE BOARDS WILL FEEL SORRY FOR YOU AT ALL AND NOONE WILL BE PROLLY BE HELPFUL TO THE MONK COMMUNITY JUST CAUSE OF YOUR SORRY [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]!</P>

[Raahl]

<P>Interesting point Adix.</P> <P>How will this DPS decrease affect the fighter classes that depend on their DPS to keep and hold aggro?</P> <P>Though I've really seen no posts reguarding this from Moorgard, I'd hope that they would increase hate through other routes (taunts/buffs).  Otherwise it's going to be a little tougher on those classes to hold aggro.</P>

[MastikFantastik]

<DIV>Something alot of peopel seem to over look, even Gaige, is that SOE explicitly states that conten, etc... are subject to change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That means the manual saying that all fighters are equal to be main tanks could have changed.  OMG wait I am sure it has. The idea is that we were able to accomplish the same goals differently. (same old argument)  Guardian use defense and mittigation. Zerkers use Offense and mitigate dmg.  Pallies and SK us mitgation and untilities as well as some offense. Monk and Bruiser use offense and avoid some of the extra potential dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now unless I ammissing something where did it ever state that the game has 6 main tanks?  I can see 6 classes that can tank, if you are want to be a main tank either form the raid yourself or talk to the raid leader.  As for people choosing a Guardian or Zerker over a Monk or Pally even its all up to the raid leader.  We have all heard the success stories of Bruiser etc... tanking raid mobs. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am betting unless they screw up the patch(which they probably will) everyone will stay in the same place as they are but have a slightly different feel.</DIV>

[Rah]

<P>To be honest with you Drake I am waiting for you Raid MT's to let me know <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Rahge</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>In reality most people who wanted to tank , whether that be raid or group , chose a guardian or zerker . If you chose a monk , it was clear at the time that monk's where not MT char's , so why change it now.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Never played a monk, eh?  I tanked to 50 in numerous xp groups (a lot of them pickup) and I've tanked a few raids.  So obviously we were, are and will be MT characters, thank YOU!</FONT></P> <P>Secondly  a TANK is a heavily armoured vehicle that is easy to hit , but hard to damage - i certainly would not want to go to war with a very fast and agile tank with tarpaulin as armour. It might be so quick it could dodge bullets , but i want a heavy armoured tank i could hide behind.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Your definition of what a tank is has no bearing to SOE's implementation of subclasses to perform a role in this game.  How about we don't even use the word "tank" anymore.  We don't have to you know.  We can use any word we want.  We'll be "the mob attention holders and damage disperers".  </FONT></P> <P>TBH though , i really do not understand the fuss , if u want to tank so much - tank , if you think your class can't tank - lets make other fighter classes better , not make guards worse. I really hate tanking , it's so boring just taunting buffing - i love being MA , why do other fighters have to be MT to exist ??</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Because that is how SOE designed this game.  That's why.  Guards have to be made a little worse, because they are too good and broken right now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <DIV>Until the problem of tank stacking is addressed, having 6 classes become tanks is a stupid and broken idea, that would result in a broken game.    /shrug <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So is having five classes taking the role of an entire archetype.  If you want guardians to be the only MT why don't we delete the scout classes, move the other five fighters to a melee damage archetype and give them evac and pathfinding.</P> <P>I mean as it is scouts are basically worthless anyway, and you guys say over and over how there really only needs to be one fighter class, right?<SPAN class=time_text></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <P>Interesting point Adix.</P> <P>How will this DPS decrease affect the fighter classes that depend on their DPS to keep and hold aggro?</P> <P>Though I've really seen no posts reguarding this from Moorgard, I'd hope that they would increase hate through other routes (taunts/buffs).  Otherwise it's going to be a little tougher on those classes to hold aggro. <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>When other monks and I used to say that taunts were traded for damage, we got ridiculed by your community.  We were told OMG DEFENSE IS TRADED FOR DAMAGE, NOT TAUNTS NOOB.</P> <P>For once, you guys were right.</P> <P>Damage is scaled against defense, not taunting ability.  So the fact that after the revamp monks will be the second highest fighter damage has nothing to do with the quality off our taunts.  In fact taunts afaik aren't balanced against anything so I see no reason why all fighters can't have equal taunting ability, although now that certainly isn't the case.</P> <P>When I tanked Zalak btw I rotated between turning auto attack off and on, and I hardly used any CAs save my stifles/stuns.  I spent the majority of the fight spamming between my four taunts and my group offense buff to generate hate.</P> <P>Hate, which I will add, I didn't lose at all the entire fight.  Even with a good warlock buddy of mine spamming his nukes.</P> <P>Holding aggro is mostly a matter of player skill, and not class.</P> <P>I've grouped with guardians who couldn't hold aggro or position a mob to save their life, and I've plenty of people tell me they were amazed at my aggro control.</P> <P>/shrug<BR></P></SPAN><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:54 AM</span>

[Mig]

Gage you can tank 99% of the content out there. If you want to tank the remaining 1%; go make a guardian, or get a raid force of 24 people in full fabled tailored to perfectly support a Monk MT. The content is out there waiting for you. You just got to work hard enough to experience it. Stop trying to change game mechanics to make things work the way you want too. Stop asking for things to be hand fed to you on a silver platter. Be happy with what you've got. You can't have everything.<p>Message Edited by Migyb on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:56 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR>Gage you can tank 99% of the content out there. If you want to tank the remaining 1% go make a guardian. The content is out there waiting for you. You just got to work hard enough to experience it. <BR><BR>Stop trying to change game mechanics to make things work the way you want too.<BR><BR>Be happy with what you've got.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Difference being I was told all fighters could tank, weren't you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>I was told my subclass choice was mostly flavor and style, and it would not take away from the primary role I could fulfill for my group/raid.</P> <P>So the fact is that since I did pick a fighter class, I shouldn't have to make a guardian if I want to tank.  Since I rolled a tank when I chose fighter, brawler, monk.</P> <P>Its funny you quote me about contested content though, since that is a totally different conversation.<BR></P>

[ugl]

<P>will guardians be the primary maintank still?   </P> <P> </P> <P>I bet dollars to donuts SONY does not even know the answer to this.  They will find out at the same time we do.  (after they push the mostly untested changes and we find out for them.)</P>

[DUNN]

<DIV> <DIV>I didn't realise monks couldn't tank.. Gaige we all can tank, sometimes better than plate tanks.  Just you can't tank all the epics wohooo.  I rather be able to do other tricks than always be a tank.  Hence i chose SK.  I can tank if needed but i don't expect to if other fighter classes are present.</DIV></DIV>

[Szy]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>I'm saying interchangeable despite differences and varied subclass excellence depending on the situation.  That's all. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>So what percentage of the "situations" (raids) would you like to be "interchangable despite differneces"  (Only a Monk can MT it), after the "revamp" ( guard nerf)?</P> <P>Furthur up this thread u state that you've MT some raids, which i guess isnt good enough since u cant MT ALL raids.  And yet you have great dps.  Let me ask you, and im sure u have the answers...  Whats your average DPS while not MT ( offensive stance/buff), and also tell me what your average DPS is when u are tanking.  And as a bonus please show me the DPS of say Noah, or Sigon or any other guard in each situation.  </P> <P><BR>Id like to see these same numbers afterr the revamp as well.  Im curious to see if u get a spot in the raid force if a guard/pally/zerk/sk can tank it.  Your Dps is gettin nerfed too, your spot is now a scouts spot... i guess as it should be.  Perhaps what ever SOE does with stances will make up for it, i dunno, its all speculation.   </P> <P>I guess myu point is what are u still all over every thread on this subject?  You got wht you've wanted...  are u just here to gloat now?  Not all guards think they should always BE the MT.  I cn assure you, we all know how u feel about it.  Posting it 4k + is not gonna change some peoples minds.  LU 12 is coming, work the cramps outta your fingers for the next 4k posts about it when u find something u dont like there.</P> <P> </P> <P>szydd</P><BR><BR>

[SmakenDah]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Migyb wrote:Gage you can tank 99% of the content out there. If you want to tank the remaining 1% go make a guardian. The content is out there waiting for you. You just got to work hard enough to experience it. Stop trying to change game mechanics to make things work the way you want too.Be happy with what you've got. <hr> </blockquote> <p>Difference being I was told all fighters could tank, weren't you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <p>I was told my subclass choice was mostly flavor and style, and it would not take away from the primary role I could fulfill for my group/raid.</p> <p>So the fact is that since I did pick a fighter class, I shouldn't have to make a guardian if I want to tank.  Since I rolled a tank when I chose fighter, brawler, monk.</p> <p>Its funny you quote me about contested content though, since that is a totally different conversation.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">While I somewhat agree, I have to wonder at what raids would look like if this was the case. 1-2 Fighters 6-8 Priests with the rest being Scouts or Mages? If Guards lose the "must have" for raids then they need something else. Also, who said they would be 'equal' in all situations or many for that matter? Scouts and Mages clearly aren't equal at their primary roles of melee or magic DPS... why should Fighters be? Shouldn't there be a top two class for tanking much like there is for DPS in Scouts (ranger/asssassin) or Mages (Warlock/Wizard)? Heck, in somse cases Scouts get the shaft on DPS where mobs are immune/resistant to slash/pierce while mages get the DPS shaft where the mobs have resistances to their prime damage types. (Admittedly Guardians tend to not get the shaft) Guards might need some different and creative compensating abilities if the tanking gap is going to be closed because everything we have is geared towards making us tank. The same cannot be said for the other fighter types. What does a paladin need rez for to help him tank? (it's a big ability that has uses on raids/groups for sure) What does a SK need FD for to help him tank? Or evac? (both very useful for raids/groups - more so groups) What does a monk or bruiser need FD for to help them tank? What does a monk need that killer shot for to help him tank? Compensation is needed to continue making Guardians wanted on raids. Of course, there are a number of assumptions being made here, the main one being that by losing our 'head of the class' for the Fighter role we'll be getting nothing in return. </font></span><div></div>

[Mig]

<blockquote><font size="1"></font><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote: <blockquote><font size="1"></font><hr>Migyb wrote: Gage you can tank 99% of the content out there. If you want to tank the remaining 1% go make a guardian. The content is out there waiting for you. You just got to work hard enough to experience it. Stop trying to change game mechanics to make things work the way you want too. Be happy with what you've got. <hr></blockquote><p><font size="1">Difference being I was told all fighters could tank, weren't you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></font></p><p><font size="1">I was told my subclass choice was mostly flavor and style, and it would not take away from the primary role I could fulfill for my group/raid.</font></p><p><font size="1">So the fact is that since I did pick a fighter class, I shouldn't have to make a guardian if I want to tank.  Since I rolled a tank when I chose fighter, brawler, monk.</font></p><p><font size="1">Its funny you quote me about contested content though, since that is a totally different conversation.</font> </p><div></div> <hr></blockquote><p>It's the same conversation Gage. We were both told stuff pre-launch that didn't happen to come true.  It was implied all fighters were able to tank 100% of the content, without having to undergo extreme effort.  I was told casual guilds could access 100% of the content, without undergoing extreme effort.</p><p>SOE hyped things up, and we "misunderstood" what they ment. Shame on us.</p><p>So to use your words, stop being "pathetic", and quit trying to change the status quo.</p><p>If you want to tank everything get yourself in fabled gear, get a raid force in fabled gear, figure out what you need to do within that 24 main raid to tank it, and stop crying like a little baby.</p><p>It's out there waiting for you, just grab a hold of it. </p>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR> <P>I was told casual guilds could access 100% of the content, without undergoing extreme effort.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Actually you're wrong.  I can post quotes from MG from August of 2003 citing that there would be contested content out there.</P> <P>What he did say was that EQ2 would try to appeal to casual gamers and hardcore raiders alike (which it does with its various instanced raids and contested mobs); something he continues to stress in his more recent posts.</P> <P>He also stated this game wouldn't please everyone.</P> <P>But as for accessing the content, you can, if your guild happens to be lucky enough to be logged in when a contested pops.</P> <P>But this conversation is obviously more fitting in that other thread <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Mig]

And I can show you posts that say fighters would be balanced but not equal. Or was that able to do the same job but not balanced? Who knows. It was some kind of doublespeak like that though. I challange you Gage, get in full fabled gear, get a raid that is in full fabled gear, get that raid to whatever you consider to be the hardest mob in the game and try tanking it. Give it a go, see if you can't do it. Then come show us the parse. Until then, I won't belive that you aren't able to tank epic mobs. Your just not trying hard enough.

[Raahl]

<P>DPS is a part of generating aggro.  If fighter archtypes lose a chunk of DPS what's to make up for the loss in aggro?  It appears guardians will get some extra taunts.  But I have not seen anything to make up for this for the other classes.</P> <P>My suggestion is we Ignore <FONT size=1>the little monk </FONT>and continue our discussions.</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR>I challange you Gage, get in full fabled gear, get a raid that is in full fabled gear, get that raid to whatever you consider to be the hardest mob in the game and try tanking it. <BR><BR>Give it a go, see if you can't do it. Then come show us the parse. <BR><BR>Until then, I won't belive that you aren't able to tank epic mobs. Your just not trying hard enough.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why should I have to do that, guardians don't.</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Raahl wrote:<BR> <P>My suggestion is we Ignore <FONT size=1>the little monk </FONT>and continue our discussions.<BR> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nice insult, very mature.</P> <P>But you know, I'm a half-elf, not a gnome <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:34 PM</span>

[Wasuna]

<P>My god your all still arguing with Gage? Don't waste your time. I will read nothing he posts at all until he has taken my challenge. He knows nothing about Guardians and will not know until he plays one. Therefore everything he says in relation to Guardians is faulty.</P> <P>Just look at his post count. That is a rediculious number that should show everybody how important it is that he impose his opinion on others.</P>

[SirDra]

<P>Well we can tell the intelligence of Gage because he made a monk to main tank. Good Game not even worth arguing with him. Go take your hissy fit to the monk forms gage im trying to get a answer to the question topic of this post from other guardians. Not Monks.</P><p>Message Edited by SirDrake on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SirDrake wrote:<BR> <P>Well we can tell the intelligence of Gage because he made a monk to main tank. Good Game not even worth arguing with him. Go take your hissy fit to the monk forms gage im trying to get a answer to the question topic of this post from other guardians. Not Monks.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Oh so now I made the wrong class choice because... you say so.  ROFL!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and I'll post wherever I want, as long as I abide by the forum rules.  Go post in the private NPU forums if you desire privacy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, you ever think responding to me and flaming me maybe isn't the best way to get me to stop posting in your thread? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ha Ha.</DIV>

[SirDra]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <DIV>Oh so now I made the wrong class choice because... you say so.  ROFL!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>I never said you made the wrong class choice i said your a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if you made a monk to main tank</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and I'll post wherever I want, as long as I abide by the forum rules.  Go post in the private NPU forums if you desire privacy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, you ever think responding to me and flaming me maybe isn't the best way to get me to stop posting in your thread? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Your annoying the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] outa people and throwing the thread off topic.</STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ha Ha.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>SirDrake wrote:</P> <P><STRONG>I never said you made the wrong class choice i said your a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if you made a monk to main tank</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Aw, calling me names isn't nice, sheesh.  Actually, its you who are misinformed if you think rolling a monk to MT is a bad choice, sir.  Obviously all these changes are being made for a reason.  You're scared aren't you?</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG>Your annoying the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] outa people and throwing the thread off topic.</STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><FONT color=#ffff00>Ah one mans annoying is another mans informative, I assume.  Actually, you attacking me and my class choice are throwing this thread off topic, you should report yourself.</FONT></STRONG></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:12 PM</span>

[ShinigamiD]

<P>Ignoring Gage and his FoHing</P> <P>There's a good possibility that Guardians will still be the primary raid MT's, otherwise SOE will have to justify having a purely defensive class having any other use in a raid scenario.  I doubt that this dev crew would do so, they've so far, at least in my opinion, shown a definate interest in fostering the overall community and communicating when they do have things set.</P> <P>I'm going to wait for the testing to make any judgements.  If it appears that they screwed it up, I'm sure that we'll let them know while Gage gloats.</P>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>lol he said he dropped auto attack and barely used CA's just used his taunts hahahahah you must be joking! Show me the parser wiht a warlock doign 400 dps and you just taunt away and holding agroe dude common if ya say such things come with evidence dont just sit on tha high horse. </P> <P>And for taunts being tha setback for monks vs dps well i never said it was read tha post correctly about what i am saying you DO USE DPS TO HOLD AGROE guardians do it zerkers do it heck all fighters classes do it even troubadours when i hvae one tanking for my coercer!</P> <P>Anyways if ya dont come with evidence plz dont come here to this thread if it is true then why the heck are they nerfing guards and not monks! If guardians wont be the best choice for raid content after LU 12 then its goodbye to my guardian and hello to my coercer but still its [Removed for Content] me off.</P> <P>This will be my last response ever to your stupid posts! ill do what wasuna is doing, ill just silence yas to death! now if everybody in the guardian community would od this then goodbye gage! </P> <P>GUARDIANS ALL ACROSS THE BOARDS PLZ HELP US GET RID OF THIS OVERSIZED MONK !</P>

[Danan]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR>And I can show you posts that say fighters would be balanced but not equal. Or was that able to do the same job but not balanced? Who knows. It was some kind of doublespeak like that though. <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff66>I challange you Gage, get in full fabled gear, get a raid that is in full fabled gear, get that raid to whatever you consider to be the hardest mob in the game and try tanking it.</FONT> <BR><BR>Give it a go, see if you can't do it. Then come show us the parse. <BR><BR>Until then, I won't belive that you aren't able to tank epic mobs. Your just not trying hard enough.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Take a look <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=6801" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=6801</A> and tell me how any avoidance tank is supposed to tank in the current system.</DIV>

[blueduckie]

<DIV>Well needless to say that is a pretty good thread to read. Alot of good points from alot of good posts. I am sure the revamp will make people like him happier not equal to a guardian but able to tank all. I assume the revamp at the very least will give a new feeling to the game for a little and hopefully it will be well  more and more i read over it less i am worried about my class. I have a feeling our defense stance and our group buffs are still going to be the best and able to add in other classes to make a better mt group instead of needing 2 fighters when buffs change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>When we engage a challenging epic mob, I don't really want to be the designated MT. I leave that to plate tanks. But if the MT goes down and the raid mob turns on me, I don't want to die in one hit. Just like I don't want to die from a single Wrath of Fury hit or a single riposte.<BR><BR>Finnster<BR></P> <HR> <P>Was a real good post and i think majority of bruisers agree and for ones who want more tanking wont have it as easy as a guardian i bet but be just as able to get it done just push healers a little more which prolly wont be to bad. Just my 2 cents but was a good read</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>07-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 PM</span>

[Landiin]

Is there a ignore gage button? All guard head to the monk forums and post how its unfair that they do more dps then us. After all all fighters are the same....  .... .... <div></div>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <P>In reality most people who wanted to tank , whether that be raid or group , chose a guardian or zerker . If you chose a monk , it was clear at the time that monk's where not MT char's , so why change it now.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Never played a monk, eh?  I tanked to 50 in numerous xp groups (a lot of them pickup) and I've tanked a few raids.  So obviously we were, are and will be MT characters, thank YOU!</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0033ff>No i have not played a monk in EQ2 and i will re-iterate - <FONT color=#ff0000>most people</FONT>. i have played in grps with monks and not one , "Not one" has wanted to be MT of the group.  (note1)</FONT></P> <P>Secondly  a TANK is a heavily armoured vehicle that is easy to hit , but hard to damage - i certainly would not want to go to war with a very fast and agile tank with tarpaulin as armour. It might be so quick it could dodge bullets , but i want a heavy armoured tank i could hide behind.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Your definition of what a tank is has no bearing to SOE's implementation of subclasses to perform a role in this game.  How about we don't even use the word "tank" anymore.  We don't have to you know.  We can use any word we want.  We'll be "the mob attention holders and damage disperers".  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3300ff>Blah Blah Blah - the charachters are called Tanks , by players not by SOE and it is a name given because of Function of that character. And i am sorry you feel like a guardians poor cousin , but you will never get 6 different fighter types with varying DPS , hp , avoidance , mitigation , equipment - to tank as well as each other.  They are all close , but maybe not at high end (which is what we are talking about here) </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#3300ff>a 6 man grp of say 30th level can use any of the fighter classes as tank - but alot of players have not had experience of playing with say a monk as MT because there are more Guardians than other types of fighters as people who wanted to play a MT role chose the guardian class (see note 1) . So when groups are looking for a MT , they look out for a guardian. You stick to what you know , This does not mean the Guardian is a broken class , it means the Guardian is a popular and understood class.</FONT></P> <P>TBH though , i really do not understand the fuss , if u want to tank so much - tank , if you think your class can't tank - lets make other fighter classes better , not make guards worse. I really hate tanking , it's so boring just taunting buffing - i love being MA , why do other fighters have to be MT to exist ??</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Because that is how SOE designed this game.  That's why.  Guards have to be made a little worse, because they are too good and broken right now <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#0000ff>HOW are they broken ?? i saw you post in another thread about having 100% avoidance and mitigation - this is not from the Guard , but by equipment and buffs , that is not a broken class .</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>drulak Just ignore gage he talks nonsense and gets his way if ya keep responding to him he wil keep posting just ignore him and get him to stop posting this way! Its a futile discussion he wont ever understand our class nor any decent comments on it!</P> <P>So just .... him</P>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#0033ff>a monk in EQ2 and i will re-iterate - <FONT color=#ff0000>most people</FONT>. i have played in grps with monks and not one , "Not one" has wanted to be MT of the group.  (note1)</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>You must have encountered some very timid monks. Whilst not <EM>all </EM>of us are bothered about tanking 57^^^x4 epic mobs, I think you'll find that a lot of monks tank often, enjoy it, are good at it, and actually get a little [Removed for Content] off when people STILL think we can't do it. Being passed over as MT for some plate feller 5 levels lower is pretty frustrating especially several months into the game when people  really should know better.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#0033ff>a monk in EQ2 and i will re-iterate - <FONT color=#ff0000>most people</FONT>. i have played in grps with monks and not one , "Not one" has wanted to be MT of the group.  (note1)</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>You must have encountered some very timid monks. Whilst not <EM>all </EM>of us are bothered about tanking 57^^^x4 epic mobs, I think you'll find that a lot of monks tank often, enjoy it, are good at it, and actually get a little [Removed for Content] off when people STILL think we can't do it. Being passed over as MT for some plate feller 5 levels lower is pretty frustrating especially several months into the game when people  really should know better.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Naah, not timid, just ones that know their role.   They understand they pretty much suck at tanking, and the whole reason they were invited to the group was for DPS.   Other monks that want to take over tanking (pretty rare) are the ones no one invites back to the group.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> uglak wrote: <P>Naah, not timid, just ones that know their role.   They understand they pretty much suck at tanking, and the whole reason they were invited to the group was for DPS.   Other monks that want to take over tanking (pretty rare) are the ones no one invites back to the group.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Monks aren't scouts, therefore their role isn't DPS.  I'm sorry your friends and you are misinformed.</P> <P>Do you honestly believe a plate tank 5 lvls lower can tank better than a monk?<BR></P>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>Now that I think about it I think we should consider brigands as tanks to since they use medium armor and can cast pathfinding, any brigands out there got any screenshots of you tanking zalak that they want to post here, seriously that's how silly this threads gotten...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Once again</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you, as a guardian, are worried about losing your job as the "main tank" of your guild just look back to the moorguard post where he says you have the best defensive buffs and most taunts.  If your worried about losing your job to a zerker, they will probably play the role of dealing with adds (ie patriarchs) since there will be more raids out there needing more than one tank in the near future, zerkers can pull aggro faster than a guardian so this is why this job more suits them.  Pallies and sk's will be stuck in they're boring utility roles just like in EQ1, and monks in raids I'd hate to say it but your probably going to be considered dps because on triple up high yellow/orange mobs how much does avoidance help you???</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now in group situations I'm sure all 6 fighters will be able to shine in some way tanking...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unless you forget to taunt.</DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> annaspider wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Drulak wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#0033ff>a monk in EQ2 and i will re-iterate - <FONT color=#ff0000>most people</FONT>. i have played in grps with monks and not one , "Not one" has wanted to be MT of the group.  (note1)</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>You must have encountered some very timid monks. Whilst not <EM>all </EM>of us are bothered about tanking 57^^^x4 epic mobs, I think you'll find that a lot of monks tank often, enjoy it, are good at it, and actually get a little [Removed for Content] off when people STILL think we can't do it. Being passed over as MT for some plate feller 5 levels lower is pretty frustrating especially several months into the game when people  really should know better.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Naah, not timid, just ones that know their role.   They understand they pretty much suck at tanking, and the whole reason they were invited to the group was for DPS.   Other monks that want to take over tanking (pretty rare) are the ones no one invites back to the group. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I get one star for saying Monks can tank - no insults, no flaming, just pointing out a fact stated by <EM>every </EM>official post ever made on the subject. Ugluk gets 5 for saying Monks can't tank and implies that those who try are nothing but weirdos who no one likes. Gage, good luck trying to discuss this - but I think you're wasting your time. I've definitely wasted mine.

[RafaelSmith]

These discussions are really becomming pointless...but..... I could really care less about raids, who tanks them, who nukes more, who pokes more, who heals better or how they do it. But if the Archetypes are truley to be made equal then it should be applied fairly....If Monk gets to tank  as well as Guardian using different methods then that same Monk should do equal DPS to the guardian using different method. If its all about "equal yet different" that should apply to both tanking and DPS. All 6 fighters should show up in the same DPS tier and the same Tank Tier  if in fact the archetypes are what Gage claims they should be.  The ONLY difference between them should be how they achieve that EQUAL TANKING and EQUAL DPS. BUT I doubt seriously the Fighters out there that have been crying to be made equal to Gaurdians are gonna accept also being made equal in DPS to Guardians? Fair is fair right?  Fighter = Tank and only tank right?  Gage created his Monk to be a MT right? As MT you dont have the right to also put out good DPS right?  So all Fighters should be tanks and do squat for DPS right? <div></div>

[Knightrid]

<DIV>As a response to Gage's question:  What will the other 5 fighter classes do if guardians are the MT?  It's pretty easy...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Berserkers: do some dmg, group haste, wrangle adds, add about 1k hp to the group</DIV> <DIV>2) Paladins: do small amount of dmg, buff tanks with GoA, rez during combat, patch heals as needed</DIV> <DIV>3) Shadowknights: do some dmg, buff tanks with GoA, debuff mobs  </DIV> <DIV>4) Monks: do decent dmg, use avoidance buffs, patch MT with mends as needed, stun epic mobs</DIV> <DIV>5) Bruisers:  do most dmg of fighters (still less than scouts), use avoidance buffs,  debuff mobs, increase group attack skills</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My knowledge of all the abilities of these classes is obviously incomplete, but that's just a short starter list of what the "other 5" can do while not MTing and not outdamaging scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heisenberg 50 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Dirac 50 Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Iniquity-Oasis</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Changed b/c Gage pointed out that bruisers cannot mend the MT and only monks have that ability</DIV><p>Message Edited by Knightrider on <span class=date_text>07-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:02 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knightrider wrote:<BR> <DIV>As a response to Gage's question:  What will the other 5 fighter classes do if guardians are the MT?  It's pretty easy...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Berserkers: do some dmg, group haste, wrangle adds, add about 1k hp to the group</DIV> <DIV>2) Paladins: do small amount of dmg, buff tanks with GoA, rez during combat, patch heals as needed</DIV> <DIV>3) Shadowknights: do some dmg, buff tanks with GoA, debuff mobs  </DIV> <DIV>4) Monks: do decent dmg, use avoidance buffs, patch MT with mends as needed, stun epic mobs</DIV> <DIV>5) Bruisers:  do most dmg of fighters (still less than scouts), use avoidance buffs, mend MT, debuff mobs, increase group attack skills</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My knowledge of all the abilities of these classes is obviously incomplete, but that's just a short starter list of what the "other 5" can do while not MTing and not outdamaging scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heisenberg 50 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Dirac 50 Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Iniquity-Oasis <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That's actually not a bad list, although I'd like to see more interdependency and situations where guardians would be doing their own unique role that could be added to that list when a different subclass was tanking.</P> <P>In fact I think it'd be cool if 3 or 4 tanks could buff and work with each other on epic encounters, instead of just 1 with the other 5 being buff bots or psuedo scouts, but that's just me.</P> <P>Great post though.</P> <P>Just fyi: Bruiser's mend is self only, so you should move that utility (mend MT) to the monk line.<BR></P>

[blueduckie]

<P>If they made our protect lines use our mitigation on the dmg we took we would have a strong utility role in raiding. That is probably the main thing if it makes tanks a lot more balanced most would like to see in our utility. It would still be like MTing with out having to taunt. Could set up zerker to mt for max dps guardian protecting them and eating majority of there hits so takes alot of healing. I personally like the idea especicialy if in design added skills that kept the line growing and exciting.</P> <P>I am not in any means expecting that though when it was said dev's felt they worked as they where planned to. Only class worth using it on now would be a zerker or crusader / paladin may be ok as long as maxxed its mit up especially if keeping commanding pressence up etc zerkers can hit with in 300ish mitigation of us currently. Actually plan on testing it some for first hand experience on some paladins soon on lower raids like angler to parse and compare total dps done by him compared to way we do him now.</P> <P>I believe this was a initial intended set up to be used that did not work out the way the planned they should change it to where it works well instead of saying it is fine tho IMHO.</P>

[pharacyde]

Djees Monk ... Go FD yourself and shut up You got utilities that can safe the whole raid ... maybe you forgot about that ... If you are mt ... haha no use for that utility ... you screw the whole raid up .. You got your place as dps and raid saver ... you are the hero ... the man ... the superman ... now shut up and be happy Every fighter has his place in a raid - monk/bruisers can fd and do dps - berserkers can get agro real quick if mt dies and do dps and buff up the hp's of mt - sk's do dps and debuff - pally's well they have good rez and can backup heal and can buff up the tank - guardians are just the mt So make the monk or bruiser mt ... if he dies the rais is almost over ... Make the pally tank and no more rezzes ... Sk might be mt but then again they are more offensive Berzerker same as sk Anyway I think I just showed that everybody has his own little extra has fighter that makes the raid going ... It would be too unfair to give one fighter two big responstabilites ... and also undoable ... Raid saver and MT ? or ... Hi I am mr paladin and tanking ... ah you need a rez ? ok omw ... I mean that's ridiculous ... It's just not doable ... My two cents here ... So if soe changes any other fighter to be able to be MT they automaticaly loose one of their specific abilities in the raid ... Which means if things go bad, it's all over ... So the only conclusion is, if soe makes guardians so crappy they can't be main tank well the whole raid will suffer of this when things go bad. Sybryn <div></div>

[blueduckie]

Well those points alot are kinda unstable, every priest and dirges can rez also. You have to assume only 1 of those fighters on a raid. So if only 1 brawler then sure no fd but necros can fd as well and rez but i am not sure if necro rez is in combat or not. I know for fact dirge is. The lvl 50 priest rezzes arnt bad to use either. They are revamping aggro which most likely will lead to smoother tank changes like eq1 had.

[SmakenDah]

<span><blockquote><hr>blueduckie wrote:Well those points alot are kinda unstable, every priest and dirges can rez also. You have to assume only 1 of those fighters on a raid. So if only 1 brawler then sure no fd but necros can fd as well and rez but i am not sure if necro rez is in combat or not. I know for fact dirge is. The lvl 50 priest rezzes arnt bad to use either. <b>They are revamping aggro which most likely will lead to smoother tank changes like eq1 had.</b> <div></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">Amen... with the way things don't stack and the need for lower level taunts, you've got to walk a very fine line of keeping your agro up without taking it from the MT - if you're not next in line the Healers are and that gets messy. I've noticed most Figther classes seem to get a targetable buff on another that raises defense/avoidance/mitigation - I wonder if 'raid compensation' for a Guardian might be allowing us to use the protect line on someone outside of our group (raid case, not able to use on someone not in raid, not in group). This would allow Guardians to become temporary extra HPs during the raid (not a role I'd like, but hey, if it means turning a L into a W I'm for being able to do it). Obviously, you wouldn't want this to stack. </font> </span><div></div>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

why we still replying to that monk?

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:why we still replying to that monk? <div></div><hr></blockquote> Cause its in our blood to TAUNT =P </span><div></div>

[Raahl]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Knightrider wrote:<BR> <DIV>As a response to Gage's question:  What will the other 5 fighter classes do if guardians are the MT?  It's pretty easy...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Berserkers: do some dmg, group haste, wrangle adds, add about 1k hp to the group</DIV> <DIV>2) Paladins: do small amount of dmg, buff tanks with GoA, rez during combat, patch heals as needed</DIV> <DIV>3) Shadowknights: do some dmg, buff tanks with GoA, debuff mobs  </DIV> <DIV>4) Monks: do decent dmg, use avoidance buffs, patch MT with mends as needed, stun epic mobs</DIV> <DIV>5) Bruisers:  do most dmg of fighters (still less than scouts), use avoidance buffs, mend MT, debuff mobs, increase group attack skills</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My knowledge of all the abilities of these classes is obviously incomplete, but that's just a short starter list of what the "other 5" can do while not MTing and not outdamaging scouts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Heisenberg 50 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Dirac 50 Warlock</DIV> <DIV>Iniquity-Oasis<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Looks like a good plan.  So every fighter class has a role to play in a raid encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:<BR>why we still replying to that monk? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Don't bait people.  You will only turn this into a [Removed for Content] war.</P>

[Lyrus]

Because it's an open forum. If you don't like what he has to say, ignore him, but don't try to start your own little crusade to get everyone else to ignore him. That's just bad form. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lyrus-D wrote:<BR>Because it's an open forum. If you don't like what he has to say, ignore him, but don't try to start your own little crusade to get everyone else to ignore him. That's just bad form.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thank you.<BR>

[Venomo]

thing that scares the bejesus out of me is that when our tanking ability is nerfed ( or others brought up to ours ) why have us along on raids? I mean it's hard enough already if you have a few guardians in your guild but apart from tanking what exactly does a guardian bring to the table as a 'required' raid class? We're a one trick pony as it is and that trick is about to be taken away <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Lyrus]

Nowhere did they ever say that they were taking away our ability to tank. I think you're speculating a bit too much, and that's where the worrying is coming from. It's already been stated that for the vast majority of raids, you'll still want a guardian tanking. Once the combat changes go to test, then it's the time to speculate. If you're really worried about how things will be, create a test toon and try things out yourself and send feedback while you do it. Mine's already leveling up there in preperation, and you know, it's pretty fun. <div></div>

[Zodi]

<P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Grondax wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly.  Every MT for every raid guild looked at their choice of classes and said, "Guardian is obviously the MT class in this game."  I think that ends with a period that should yield no discussion.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>So what should the other five fighters do that raid.  Because plenty of us out there raid?  I suppose you think us outdamaging scouts and taking their spots is okay?</P> <P>I'm curious, really.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Cage:</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Let me start by saying this. I would really like to know what is on your mind. What exactly would you like to see to happen to all the fighter classes. So far your point is that you want to be able to tank as good as a Guardian. Thats fine and dandy.. if I were an implementor or game designer I will grant  you your wish, but you will have to sacrifice in many other areas. THIS IS WHAT BALANCE MEANS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff> In my opinion you choose a primary SOLO or SMALL GROUP character, Monks are awesome for small group characters. They can HEAL, DECENT DAMAGE & VERY GOOD UNBUFFED AVOIDANCE (UNGROUP).  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Guardians in my opinion, are better design for raiding . They are so specialized in defense that when it is combined with other characters BUFF and SPELLS. We look overpowering. I dont denny that. In solo or small groups there is a BIG DIFERENCE, we lack of the ability to SOLO as good as you do</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66><FONT color=#ff3300>This shouldnt be a surprised to anyone in this game. Darn, I mainly <FONT color=#3399ff>speak spanish</FONT> and when I read the description of both characters, I said. "Shut, I better go for the one with  all the defense. It will get me more main chances to tank in a group". </FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>The main problem by me choosing a guardian is that there is one or two spots open in a raid for them. I dont think that no hardcore raiding guild will take more than 1 or 2 guardians in a raids because all they can do is ABSORB DAMAGE. Our DPS is basically the worst compared with any other class. I knew this was before I choose to be one. It sucks, but guess what I dont whine about or attack mages because there can be ton of them in a raid. THATS WHY I HAVE 5 MORE CHARACTER SLOTS TO CHOOSE FROM. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00><FONT color=#ccffff>I have seen your post in the past and basically in my opinion they are to attack our class. For me I am convinced that your only way to kick butt is by reducing our ability. Let me make you a suggestion,</FONT> </FONT><FONT color=#ff33cc>"Instead of attacking other classes. DO SOME RESEARCH OF WHAT YOUR CLASS NEED. AND THE POST IDEAS HOW TO RESOLVE THE ISSUE AND IMPROVE YOUR CLASS"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>I think this way you will get more possitive feedback and support from other players. SOE will listen to numbers, they are in the business to make money. By having support from other players in a possitve way, I think you will achieve what you want. Good luck to you man.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ccffff>Thanos-Crushbone</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66></FONT> </P>

[Zodi]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SirDrake wrote:<BR> <DIV>Well when there are suppose to be 6 classes in this game that are suppose to main tank, it makes no sense. Some fighter classes should be able to deal good dps, but i guess SOE disagress.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Basically most guardians think they should be MT and the other 5 should be scouts.  So why not just have one fighter class, right?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Why not making a guardian Cage. Or your just refuse to do so. Darn if MONKS would rule the world I will make one a call him GOKU!!!!</DIV> <DIV>or maybe VEGETA!!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>BTW good luck man... </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL </DIV> <DIV>Thanos_Crushbone<BR></DIV>

[Zodi]

<DIV><BR> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote:<BR> <P>If this combat revamp makes all tanks more viable for raiding, but still leaves Guardians as the preferred MT, I'll be happy. <FONT color=#ffff00>But if Guardians are left with crappy DPS, and every other tank is JUST as good a tank as "we" are, there will be very little reason to log in.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT size=5><FONT color=#ff0000>Fighters are tanks.</FONT> </FONT> All of us.  This will be made even more so after the revamp.  If after the revamp Guardians are better tanks in every situation, despite by how much, then SOE needs to delete the other five subclasses.</P> <P>As we will become inferior DPS and inferior tanks, and cease to have a reason to exist in game.</P> <P>So just as easily as you suggest that if guardians aren't the best tank, there is no reason to play them, I suggest that if they are, there is no reason to play the other five fighters.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>OF COURSE FIGHTER ARE TANKS AND THEY ALL CAN TANK. FOR GOODNES SAKE ALL OF US CAN DO THE SAME FROM LEVEL 1 to LEVEL 9. AFTER THAT THE CHOICES YOU MAKE CHANGE THAT OPTION.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I FINALLY DISCOVER IT WHERE YOU DECIDED TO CHANGE THAT OPTION. I AM SORRY NEXT TIME IF YOU WANT TO BE THE MT DO THIS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Choose are RACE </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>OGRE  or BARBARIAN</FONT></DIV> <P>CHOOSE FOR CLASS</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>FIGHTER</FONT></P> <P>Play the game for the next 10 levels and then on your quest for SECONDAY CLASS CHOOSE</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>WARRIOR</FONT></P> <P>Now if you want to have awesoem defense and have a godo cahnce to be the MT on a raid PLEASE DO THE FOLLOWING</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>CHOOSE GUARDIAN</FONT></P> <P>This will fix your problem. Now if by any chance this does not fix your problem. </P> <P>Good luck man</P> <P>LOL</P> <P> </P> <DIV><BR></DIV>

[Tyrion]

<DIV> <DIV>Zodian~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Choose are RACE </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>OGRE  or BARBARIAN</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>Whoa, whoa, slow down big guy. If there's one thing I think me and Gage can agree on is that Half-Elves are the race the hot elven chicks really dig, and on top of that, we still kick serious [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Wooo, half-elves for teh win! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>(Pretty sure I'm the first Half-Elf Guardian to reach 50 on Lucan! Thorren Steelwind of Helanic Frost)</P><p>Message Edited by Tyrion on <span class=date_text>07-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:36 PM</span>

[Zodi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Tyrion wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV>Zodian~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Choose are RACE </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>OGRE  or BARBARIAN</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV> <P>Whoa, whoa, slow down big guy. If there's one thing I think me and Gage can agree on is that Half-Elves are the race the hot elven chicks really dig, and on top of that, we still kick serious [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Wooo, half-elves for teh win! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>(Pretty sure I'm the first Half-Elf Guardian to reach 50 on Lucan! Thorren Steelwind of Helanic Frost)</P> <P>Message Edited by Tyrion on <SPAN class=date_text>07-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:36 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My apologies.. I just dont Mr. Cage to fail and try to get the Ogres and barbarians nerfed since he didnt choose the races with the % to defense, Nice stamina and str in the game. My apologies to you sir</P> <P>Thanos</P>

[Styk]

The one thing yall have to take into account is post combat change Crusader Wards will become effective tools for tanking for them, That is gonna make a large difference in their tankablity because it will be worth casting now that it will mitigate damage properly, that is gonna compensate for the the less defense they have vs guardians.... All i want is more flavor with the tank classes , since im a zerker i want to be able to tank with an offense style while Guardians do it with a defense style... also i hope they solve figther stackablity so have many figthers on raids wont be a big liabilty aka we dont get excluded on raids <div></div>

[Zodi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>The one thing yall have to take into account is post combat change Crusader Wards will become effective tools for tanking for them, That is gonna make a large difference in their tankablity because it will be worth casting now that it will mitigate damage properly, that is gonna compensate for the the less defense they have vs guardians....<BR><BR>All i want is more flavor with the tank classes , since im a zerker i want to be able to tank with an offense style while Guardians do it with a defense style... also i hope they solve figther stackablity so have many figthers on raids wont be a big liabilty aka we dont get excluded on raids<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I understand that everyones in the fighter class wants to tank. Thats all good and dandy</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In you post you say you want to tank with a offensive style while I tank with defensive style. The only problem that brings to us (guardians) is that now we will become less prefered tanks. Why? If you can pick a tank who does damage and absorbs damage vs one that basically just takes damage which one will you choose?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The problem and challenge resides in how to make the each fighter class balanced. Thats for SOE to figure it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me play devils advocate and you guys this question:</DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>I hope everyones agrees with me that the scout class is basically about meele DPS. With that said. Lets say the swashies and bridgands and everyone in the scout class. Start complaining that it is unfair the damage that assassins do. The demand that they do the same damage because basically SOE told them that this what this class do. Then whats going to happen to the scout class. Just 6 clones of assassin plus their respective class bonuses. For example: Dirges will do as much damage as assassin and still want to keep the thei debuff and other skills. The Swashies will keep their skill and still do as much DPS as assassins. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Now lets switch to the MAGE class which is basically about magic damage. If everyone complains that they want to do as much damage as wizards and warlocks.. whats going to happen. Please someone tell me.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>I think in the fighter class everyone can tank, but there will be limitations to what they can and cant do. When I am tanking I envy the DPS that serkers and bruiser can do in my group, but I choose to be a tank and choose and specialize in everything l that makes my HPS and DEFENSE to the best. I even remade my character like 3 times in order to get the best possible race and class combo to achieve my goal. The other day  I found out that as min/maxxer like I am I might have to restart and choose a new race. So I made another guardian.. Now i have two guardians one level 36 and anotther level 25. Sounds stph, but guess what I am willing to take challenges and make sacrifices to achieve what I want which is  the best possible race class combo for a TANK!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am not trying to tell anyone to re-start or remake the characters, but I think itis pretty unfair that everyones knew from the begining that guardians ware the best tanks in the game. For some reason they decided to choose something else and now they want the advantages of their respective class plus hte abilities of a guardian. I dont think thats fair to us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I APOLGIZE FOR GRAMMAR.. ENGLISH IS NOT PRIMARY LANGUAGE)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>GOod luck to everyone and I hope that answer to this dilema resolves everyones concerns</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanos-Crushbone</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Actualy Zodain, people didnt know that, the game was not advertised that way.</P> <P>So if you choose a class based on the MT idea for Raids, then YOU had a misconception, not everyone elese.</P> <P>So alot of us picked a Fighter for one reason only, TO TANK no matter what the class was and to Tank Raid Mobs.</P> <P>The very idea of making a Raid Tank Class, borders on sheer stupidity or brain damage ( not that I am saying anyone is stupid or has brain damage&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> in such a massive multi Class system.   You get one of two results when you do that.   You get a Raid Tank that really sucks at grouping and soloing, and then later you will hear the Raid Tank Cry of, we dont get groups the game is no fun and without XP, I can't level and BE a Raid Tank, OR you get a Raid Tank that over powers the Group Eviroment and nobody will take any of the other Tanks UNLESS no Raid Tanks are LFG.</P> <P>As for you example about Scouts, that really didnt make alot of sense.   For one there is a opposite number for each class and they all do stuff really different.  Tanks, Tank and that is it.  Preds are DPS, Rogs DPS and Utility, and Bards are awsome Utility.   That is a heck of a difference compared us Tanks.</P> <P>And lets go more to a logical lvl based on this game system itself.   This game has a awsome array of untapped abilites in it.  This game is way better designed for growth then EQL could even hope for, they just need to learn how to use it and realize what they have on their hands here.   The idea of going back to EQL MT ONE CLASS ROLE, would be a total waste of this games possibilites and would really be sad.</P> <P>Most class's stack on raids.  But Tanking doesnt very well, so seperating the Tanks and have each one Excell in a area of Tanking helps deal with this situation on a game level and on a logical level.</P> <P> </P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Deadjester wrote:<p>Actualy Zodain, people didnt know that, the game was not advertised that way.</p> <p>So if you choose a class based on the MT idea for Raids, then YOU had a misconception, not everyone elese.</p> <p>So alot of us picked a Fighter for one reason only, TO TANK no matter what the class was and to Tank Raid Mobs.</p> <p>The very idea of making a Raid Tank Class, borders on sheer stupidity or brain damage ( not that I am saying anyone is stupid or has brain damage&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> in such a massive multi Class system.   You get one of two results when you do that.   You get a Raid Tank that really sucks at grouping and soloing, and then later you will hear the Raid Tank Cry of, we dont get groups the game is no fun and without XP, I can't level and BE a Raid Tank, OR you get a Raid Tank that over powers the Group Eviroment and nobody will take any of the other Tanks UNLESS no Raid Tanks are LFG.</p> <p>As for you example about Scouts, that really didnt make alot of sense.   For one there is a opposite number for each class and they all do stuff really different.  Tanks, Tank and that is it.  Preds are DPS, Rogs DPS and Utility, and Bards are awsome Utility.   That is a heck of a difference compared us Tanks.</p> <p>And lets go more to a logical lvl based on this game system itself.   This game has a awsome array of untapped abilites in it.  This game is way better designed for growth then EQL could even hope for, they just need to learn how to use it and realize what they have on their hands here.   The idea of going back to EQL MT ONE CLASS ROLE, would be a total waste of this games possibilites and would really be sad.</p> <p>Most class's stack on raids.  But Tanking doesnt very well, so seperating the Tanks and have each one Excell in a area of Tanking helps deal with this situation on a game level and on a logical level.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> How is having 6 "different" classes, only good for one thing, that are all equal and interchangable for that ONE specific role that DOES not stack any different than what we had in EQ1?   All this does is have even more people all competing for a very very very limited number of "jobs" in game. When its all said and done...you can never have too much DPS or even too much HEALING but you sure as hell can have too much tanking Archetype equality works for stuff like DPS, Utitliy and Healing but it DOES NOT work for Tanking.  </span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<SPAN><BR>Archetype equality works for stuff like DPS, Utitliy and Healing but it DOES NOT work for Tanking.  </SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay, I can agree here.</P> <P>But what I haven't seen is any guardians offering any other solution other than "make us the best tanks, make paladins awesome utility, make monks scout dps".</P> <P>That's not a solution, because its basically leaving only one fighter class.</P> <P>I like the idea of epic mobs taking a lot more than one tank to handle, for one.<BR></P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<div></div> <blockquote> <p></p> <hr> RafaelSmith wrote:<span>Archetype equality works for stuff like DPS, Utitliy and Healing but it DOES NOT work for Tanking.  </span> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Okay, I can agree here.</p> <p>But what I haven't seen is any guardians offering any other solution other than "make us the best tanks, make paladins awesome utility, make monks scout dps".</p> <p>That's not a solution, because its basically leaving only one fighter class.</p> <p>I like the idea of epic mobs taking a lot more than one tank to handle, for one.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Ok I admit I do feel that given the way im pretty sure SOE designs things and will continue to do so...that if Guardian...or more specifically Warrior is gogin to even exist in the game then they have to better at tanking than anyone else.   NO ONE will ever stand for a Warrior in a SOE designed game doing anything but tanking, however they will accept other classes being able to tank "most things" while also providing other benefits.   That there is the fundemental flaw with the Fighter archetype and any attempts to make it "equal".  Truely equal would mean equal tanking and equal DPS across the entire archetype...thats just not gonna happen and we know it.  No Monk is going to be happy with equal tanking to a Guardian while also having absolutely equal DPS to the Guardian.  So where does that leave warriors?  If we are to only be able to do one thing....if noone is going to accept as doing anything else besides that then we better be the best at it or our existence is pointless.   Look back at EQ1...i played a Warrior for 5+ years and if we didnt have our "top tank" role we didnt have anything.  In groups the benefits the other tank classes provided far outweighed anything we could.    I would love to believe that after the revamps every Fighter class will have "other" things they can provide that are both interesting and needed but i wouldnt bet money on SOE being able to do that.  They are too good at falling back on old formulas when new ones dont work.  And lets face it this "new" formula..i.e Arcehtypes isnt working...and for fighters particulary i dont think it can....if Tanking is all they are suppose to do. Its been said by many that some of the fighters classes achieve there "tanking" by doing DMG...while we Gaurdians do not.. Thats also a flaw that makes equality impossible.  Your DPS is useful both in fulfiling your tanking role and for being useful when your not.   Our "talent" is only useful when tanking.  How can we be equal beyond the primary role of tanking?   </span><div></div>

[Deadjest]

<P>Actualy it can work, there is no reason it shouldnt, the problem is that utility for Tanks sucks bad.   If things like Intervene worked properly and if they would come up with more utility for tanks, things would not be so bad.   The idea of arguing that as Guardians all we can do is Tank, is a argurment with no foundation in face of the mulit tank system we have.  The argument should be if the other Tanks are going to be more on par, then Guardians should come up in DPS and Utility.   But from what I have seen, many don't want this SO that they can keep the argument of, Tanking is all we can do.  But lets be honest, that is ALL that all of us Tanks can do.  In the Revamp, even Monk DPS will be sad DPS in face of a pure DPS class you can fill his spot in a group if you have a choice.  So the sheer idea of getting a Tank for other then Tanking, is absurd.</P> <P>I have been a Tank since early 99 and have written many posts that came true time and time again up to 3 years in advance and have been a strong advocate for a Muilti Tank System and for give Tanks more Utility and Specializations so that they can have rolls additional to Tanking.   That way DPS won't be the only equation we work upon and leaves it more to the other class's.</P> <P>But I know for many of us, we came to EQ2 to get away from the Warrior mentality of EQL, based upon what EQ2 advertised.   Anything less is not a good enough reason to play the other tanks and remain in EQ2 when somthing else comes along on the market that may offer us that equality.  </P> <P>But going by your logic, if it doesnt work, then you really don't want to have a system where only 1 out of 5 tanks is useful on a raid unless of course the one class is your class.</P> <p>Message Edited by Deadjester on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:32 AM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>I  will have to chime in here. Although I do think guards should have a SLIGHT edge when it comes to tanking, please dont tell me monks or SK's solo better.  Thats a crass statement. </P> <P>Ous lvl 50 Palys and our guild MT's are the ONLY fighters I've seen who can take down a lvl 48 heroic glacier in PF...and thats with a SM for guards and our heals. In fact, the guard almost always kills it faster because i lose power healing myself. </P> <P>The only reason why palys are not MT's right now is because of our perceived aggro problems and those extra 3 lvls of self def buffs guards get. </P> <P>If the combat revamps comes about and those self def buffs are looked at..and Palys get their aggro looked at..well, hopefully the diffs will be VERY little. You see, people made tanks because they wanted to tank. No one picked their toon due to utility because at the time the game came out, we had NO idea what the utility would be...</P> <P>Again, im not saying that guards should get the hell nerfed out of them..but if my DPS is being put on par with a Guard then I, along with every other Paly in the game, will expect to TANK equally to a guard,  using my Paly skills.</P> <P>I also am interpreting Moorgard's statement thats since the diff in DPS between can be overcome by gear and player skill, then the diff in tanking will not be so pronounced. </P> <P>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</P>

[Tro]

<P>This is for Gage and I am not picking sides on this but after reading a ton of posts, you basically feel the monk class needs to be a better Tank like you were lead to believe at the games launch (All fighters will tank).</P> <P>I have read alot of your replies to other folks (Not all as I dont have enough time lol) and you clearly state you have successfully tanked several mobs (Zalak for example) and never lost aggro and you were even praised for your aggro control..</P> <P>So why are you so set on the revamping of the whole fighter class to suit your desire to be a better tank. I mean isn't that kinda of contradicting yourself? You can effectively tank.. you proved it to your self and us.</P> <P>I dont hear any other fighter classes complaining.... besides as someone already pointed out.. there are things you can do (Yes it will take some initiative and effort) to make your monk a better tank that already exist ingame.. so again.. I dont completely understand your stance..</P> <P> </P>

[blueduckie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>I  will have to chime in here. Although I do think guards should have a SLIGHT edge when it comes to tanking, please dont tell me monks or SK's solo better.  Thats a crass statement. </P> <P>Ous lvl 50 Palys and our guild MT's are the ONLY fighters I've seen who can take down a lvl 48 heroic glacier in PF...and thats with a SM for guards and our heals. In fact, the guard almost always kills it faster because i lose power healing myself. </P> <P>The only reason why palys are not MT's right now is because of our perceived aggro problems and those extra 3 lvls of self def buffs guards get. </P> <P>If the combat revamps comes about and those self def buffs are looked at..and Palys get their aggro looked at..well, hopefully the diffs will be VERY little. You see, people made tanks because they wanted to tank. No one picked their toon due to utility because at the time the game came out, we had NO idea what the utility would be...</P> <P>Again, im not saying that guards should get the hell nerfed out of them..but if my DPS is being put on par with a Guard then I, along with every other Paly in the game, will expect to TANK equally to a guard,  using my Paly skills.</P> <P>I also am interpreting Moorgard's statement thats since the diff in DPS between can be overcome by gear and player skill, then the diff in tanking will not be so pronounced. </P> <P>Uzhiel, lvl 50 Paladin, Eternal Chaos, Faydark.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>What Self defense buffs? We only get GROUP defensive buffs. You can have every single buff we can including mitigation except 2 self mit buffs we get 1 being stance and 1 linked to a taunt that not all selected probably. <p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:03 AM</span>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>what im saying is that a paly in an MT grp can only self buff themselves to lvl 54 def, whereas a guard can buff themselves to a 57.</P> <P>In an MT grp, a Paly, zerker and 3 healers will be tanking at 3 def lvls lower than a guard. Now, if you were to substitute a guard for the zerker u could buff that paly higher, but how many guards would be willing to be an assist tank to a Paly? Not only that, but you guys just have more taunts than us. Its a known problem that paly aggro needs tweaking. </P> <P>But the point is, when all else falls flat, is that Palys DPS is getting nerfed down to guard DPS, which means we need to given the skills to tank EQUALLY to a guard.</P> <DIV>No paly that I know of signed up to be a rez bot at a raid...specially with the coming DPS nerf....Then ALL we would be is rez bots...and I'm not looking forward to that.</DIV><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:24 AM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<div></div> <div>No paly that I know of signed up to be a rez bot at a raid...specially with the coming DPS nerf....Then ALL we would be is rez bots...and I'm not looking forward to that.</div><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class="date_text">07-25-2005</span> <span class="time_text">09:24 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> My fear goes beyond that...It seems what everyone that supports this revamp is asking  for all fighter types to be delegated to BUFF bot roles when they are not tanking.   That just doenst sound very "fighter" like to me.  Tanking is such a very small limited job in EQ2, having an entire archetype that can only do that one job and nothing else is just asking for balance problems and will only serve too make ALOT of players feel less than useful.</span><div></div>

[Tro]

<DIV> <P>I see folks saying that if they are not tanking and are in a support role (Buffs/Rezz Whatever), they will feel less useful.. </P> <P>I agree folks may feel that way but I take my MT Raid philosophy from EQ1 (70 Warrior). In a raid my role is decided by the raid leader who bases their decision on who they have available at the time and the particular mob at hand.</P> <P>If I am designated as the MT kewl.. If the SA kewl if the offtanker kewl .. If the buff bot kewl. Bottom line is we are a team.. If the Pally/SKMonk  or whoever is tanking, it should not matter. What should matter is defeating the encounter for the win.. </P> <P>Would I rather Tank? Heck yea.. but if I am not the tank, I do what ever is asked of me to do my part as a member of the team.</P> <P>I am not one of those that feel they have to be the MT no matter what.. I understand the concern with these impending changes.. I don tfeel they will be all that bad.. too early to tell for sure.. We will see.. I am not losing any sleep over it thats for sure.. </P></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 AM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

For me its not a matter of wanting to always be tanking.  Its matter of "actively" feeling useful.  I too played a Warrior in EQ1...not high end by any stretch of the imagination but was in a somewhat casual raiding guild.  I saw MT action about 1/10 times, SA action abit more often but most of the time I was just Warrior X on the raid...contributing what "felt" like very very little to its outcome.  Granted in EQ2 its different since raid size is limited to 24...when you have 70 people, warrior x really is pointless.  But still if my DPS is unoticable, if my only purpose is to cast my 10min buff and I can goto sleep then I am not useful. My point is that I still have yet to experience this game breaking DPS Gaurdian is rumored to have...and then I read all this stuff from Moorgard about fighters doing too much DPS,  his DPS tier tree putting me at the bottom, etc and I wonder [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] am i going to be doing those times I am not MT...which for me is more often than not.    If all im meant to do is cast a buff or two and noone will be able to tell weather or not I even attack then something is wrong and I am in fact less usefull than I am now. <div></div>

[Rah]

<DIV> <P>__________________________________________________ ______________________</P> <P>Uzhiel wrote-</P> <P>what im saying is that a paly in an MT grp can only self buff themselves to lvl 54 def, whereas a guard can buff themselves to a 57.</P> <P>In an MT grp, a Paly, zerker and 3 healers will be tanking at 3 def lvls lower than a guard. Now, if you were to substitute a guard for the zerker u could buff that paly higher, but how many guards would be willing to be an assist tank to a Paly? Not only that, but you guys just have more taunts than us. Its a known problem that paly aggro needs tweaking</P> <P>__________________________________________________ ______________________</P> <P>I have (assist tank to a Paly) and dont mind being an Assist Tank to any class. In fact I hold the view that my additional taunts are there when aggro is lost off of the MT and some member is in trouble. Thats when I fire off my intervene line and then go for broke on my many Taunts to get the mob back on a tank that can stand a chance at surviving the damage. I can also let the MT pull the high hitter and peel off the add mobs from that encounter to minimize the DPS the MT is going to get. </P> <P>Most players selected a guardian because mitigation is a combat variable thats more reliable than others. Guardains are defensive mitigation tanks and thus more reliable when looking to fill that role. Thats it, no mystery, no special skill that others dont get etc.I guess the point of your reply in respect to the 3 level difference begs the question how much more damage are you taking because of the difference and can you counter that additional damage with your heals? </P> <P>You selected the abiltiy to heal rez and do divine damage over the number of swings you take were as I selected the ability to stack my defense 3 higher than you and mitigate the damage I take better and get the mobs attention when I must. If we both get equal defensive abilitys and you can provide a 40% power on rez ability who do you think will get our groups slots for a raid?</P> <P>Just my view on the issue </P></DIV>

[uzhiel feathered serpe]

<P>But you see, thats the funny thing, i DIDNT select the ability to rez, I was shocked when I found out I could rez. As for buffs, every tank has nice buffs. Hell, if i could swap that for those extra taunts i'd love it.  When I read the manual there was no skill description. I started playing this game a few hours after it was released and played non-stop. The tanking differences were also negligible at the lower lvls. I didnt realize the large gap that would exist in the end game...and unless SoE steps in and corrects it, it can only get worse and worse as the game progresses..</P> <P>Just think about. The current trend would be guards getting more and more mitigation and hit points and palys getting more and more heals, wards, and buffs...</P> <P>At what point then do Palys stop becoming tanks and start becoming healers? at what point then do monks and bruisers stop becoming tanks and start becoming scouts? those are the current trends.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>07-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:24 PM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Besides EQL tought anyone that was a high lvl tank a simple leason.   Defense is King.  It does not suffer interrupts, fizzels, lack of mana,  and in some class cases, resists.   3 Lvls in this game has a major, major effect compared to self heals and taps in a raid situation.  Its out of balance</P> <P>I know this will get me a bonk on the head from some fellow SKs but I do believe Guardians should be 1 Lvl of Defense above us when it comes to Physical Damage and their DPS while it should not be on par with offensive tanks, it should be higher then it is.   No matter how much a Guardian is a Tank, he is still  Fighter that should do decent damage.   In trade Crusaders should have much better magical deffenses and let brawlers evade special attacks more. </P> <P>I think that is more inline with our back grounds as Tanks.</P> <P>Also it would be nice if Intervene worked with the mitigation of the tank doing it, so that we all could work together and help each other out.  Even a Spell Defensive version of Intervene would be interesting and/or other abilites that would give us more chances to actualy work together in the game instead of arguing it out on the boards.</P> <P>Intervene is one of the few abilites alot of us share that could be used with each other and make it stackable to a limited degree.   </P>

[Tro]

<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=8578" target=_blank><SPAN>RafaelSmith</SPAN></A> , I see your point and completely understand.. for me though,  if I am designated as the buff bot, i go with it.. I still have DPS abilities to use and I swap to my 2hander and throw on my self haste.. Yea we are not talking earthshattering DPS but I am still contributing. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Buffs are huge for a raid force, Rezzes are Huge especially if the raid wipes and is going for a second or third try..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No matter what we do in a raid.. believe it or not.. it is useful. Look at it as you like but those are the facts.. Everyone is a part of the raid force doing what is expected of them. That = The win..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class=date_text>07-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:55 AM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Trook wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div><a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=8578" target="_blank"><span>RafaelSmith</span></a> , I see your point and completely understand.. for me though,  if I am designated as the buff bot, i go with it.. I still have DPS abilities to use and I swap to my 2hander and throw on my self haste.. Yea we are not talking earthshattering DPS but I am still contributing. </div> <div> </div> <div>Buffs are huge for a raid force, Rezzes are Huge especially if the raid wipes and is going for a second or third try..</div> <div> </div> <div>No matter what we do in a raid.. believe it or not.. it is useful. Look at it as you like but those are the facts.. Everyone is a part of the raid force doing what is expected of them. That = The win..</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div><p>Message Edited by Trook on <span class="date_text">07-26-2005</span> <span class="time_text">03:55 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Contributing yes..."Feeling" usefull is another thing.  In EQ1 when I was #10 Warrior on a raid..sure I was contributing but it sure didnt feel like it considering noone would even be able to tell if I was attacking or not. Believe it or not I actually agree with what you said in principle.  I do whatever is asked of me to win.  But I see the max raid size of 24 as being a double edged sword when it comes to this.  Sure it way better than 70 man zerg forces of EQ1 but it also limits the number of "charity" slots available to your fighters beyond the 2-3 required for MT,SA and buffs.  If they make our DPS as "comparitavly" low as everyone seems to want  its going to be rough on some of us. Beyond that my main concern is not even related to raids or raid group makeup.  I rarely raid, when I do i could care less who tanks or what im asked to do.  I mostly group with some close friends(2 priests and a Chanter).  AS you can see we are "DPS lite"  and currently in addition to being the MT, I contribute quite abit in terms of DPS which makes our playtime go smoother and fun.  If they do what I suspect they are going to do(3 of us getting our DPS nerfed)...our group will suffer.   Not too mention that most likely after the changes I will be taking alot more DMG than I currently do....something which I actually think should be the case but it also means the priests will have to heal more, etc thus reducing their DPS even more, blah blah blah When its all added up these changes look really bad for my group friend and I.  Am I selfish for only thinking about us...yep =P </span><div></div>

[Tro]

<P>Yea in a group scenario these changes would have a negative impact.. Good thing you have two priests but yea DPS goes down quite a bit along with mitigation. </P> <P>The intent of the changes (As I understand it) was for the raiding Fighter.. As a side effect, some groups will get shafted.. Myself included.. My wife (Templar) and I dou alot.. My previous guild has pretty much disbanded so we level together almost exclusively.. Looks like these changes will force us to group alot more.. which is a good thing cause by dou'ing most of the time.. you lose alot of knowledge as far as what other classes bring to the table and how to interact in a group environment.</P> <P>Either way, this kinda changes my perspective on this whole subject. These changes can have a substancial negative impact on low DPS groups..  I wonder if they though of how these changes will affect the group environment?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Trook wrote: <p>Either way, this kinda changes my perspective on this whole subject. These changes can have a substancial negative impact on low DPS groups..  I wonder if they though of how these changes will affect the group environment?</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Well in my opinion these changes are all about the raiding environment.  As I see it the game is just fine as it is with regards to the Fighter achetype for the group environment.  Any of the 6 can MT for groups, any healer can heal, and Scouts and Mages poke and blow stuff up =P.   So i have my doubts that they have thought this stuff thru.  I think they are mostly concentrating on the Raid game, raid encounters, etc. Also my concern for my group really has nothing to do with "hard" or "easy"...it has to do with fun.  I pretty sure after the revamps we wills till be able to achieve things...its just it will be long and slow thus less fun.  Unfortunatly  i think alot of people equate "timesink" with "challenge". Making something frustrating does not make it more challenging.</span><div></div>

[Tro]

I agree with you.. Guess we will just have to wait and see../shrug

[Rah]

<DIV><FONT color=#ffff00> <P>Uhziel wrote~</P> <P>But you see, thats the funny thing, i DIDNT select the ability to rez, I was shocked when I found out I could rez. As for buffs, every tank has nice buffs. Hell, if i could swap that for those extra taunts i'd love it. When I read the manual there was no skill description. I started playing this game a few hours after it was released and played non-stop. The tanking differences were also negligible at the lower lvls. I didnt realize the large gap that would exist in the end game...and unless SoE steps in and corrects it, it can only get worse and worse as the game progresses..</P></FONT><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT><FONT face=Arial color=#c0c0c0 size=2> <P>Guardian buffs dont stack, Heals do.</P> <P>Rezs with a 40% power attached ARE a discriminator for selecting charity/other slots in a 24 member raid process. Like it or not. </P> <P>Taunts If you look at the Pally skill line you recieve 4 taunt lines from 40 to 50.....</P> <P>41 Courageous Dash</P> <P>45 Clarion Call</P> <P>49 Holy symbol</P> <P>50 Zealous Preaching</P> <P>I recieve 3......</P> <P>44 Taunting Assualt </P> <P>45 Deafen</P> <P>50 Protect</P> <P>So im not sure what you would like to trade as it appears that we are merely going to be placed on par with you in the ability to generate hate. These are all facts not opinion. </P> <P>The problem is Tank slots are very competative in a 24 slot raid. Guardians are selected for there ability to Mitigate damage. Locking aggro on the strongest Tank is a RAID effort not a subclass special gift. </P> <P>As stated in a looooong series of post here Tanks dont stack, so the tank that can take the damage the best will more than likely win the slot.Until they change the raid ecounters to require more than 2 or 3 tank slots thats the way it will remain. </P> <P>Until then your rez, your plate like mitigation to minimize damage better and your ability to heal yourself will make you a much better candidate for any offtanking positions. </P> <P>The MT/MA positions will be based off of Mitigation, Avoidance, Health, Power, and who is a reliable player. A Large part of that is based off of the gear the player owns and the knowledge he/she has gained from gaining it. </P></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class=date_text>07-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:29 AM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

Personally I believe Paladin self healing should be one of their aggro methods.  I know nothing pisses me off more than a mob that heals itself =P <div></div>

[Troodon]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rahge wrote: <div><font color="#ffff00"></font><font color="#c0c0c0" face="Arial" size="2"> <p>41 Courageous Dash</p> <p>45 Clarion Call</p> <p>49 Holy symbol</p> <p>50 Zealous Preaching</p> <p>I recieve 3......</p> <p>44 Taunting Assualt </p> <p>45 Deafen</p> <p>50 Protect</p><font color="#ffffff" size="2">[snip]</font> </font>Taunts If you look at the Pally skill line you recieve 4 taunt lines from 40 to 50.....</div><p>Message Edited by Rahge on <span class="date_text">07-29-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:29 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote></span><i><font size="2">Holy Symbol Adept3 (50.0): 101 power, Make targets in AOE afraid, Heal group for 113, Inflict 108-181 divine damage (max 5) in AOE</font></i> <span> For the record Holy Symbol has no Hate generating component.</span> <span> In its listing of effects it can cause Fear, though I dont think this has ever been implimented, Ive never obsevered a mob (even greys)</span><span> </span><span>briefly run away after being subjected to Holy Symbol and nor does it seem to generate any more Hate than would be expected through the damage it causes. Its also supposed to heal the group for a minor amount, but I havent observed such either. Its an AoE attack, not a taunt. Just another one of our slightly buggy and somewhat inconsistant abilities.</span><div></div>

[Ivellious]

<P>I love this, this topic was started by guardian to see what other guardians thought about upcoming Combat Changes, then turns into monk vs guardian once again, like we haven't seen that 18 billion sticking times, honestly quite tired of it. then turns into guardian vs pally. Why? Who cares, at the end every tank class will tank a raid, and the raid will go on as usuall, i personally don't care if i'm MT in a raid or not, i just care that i'm in the raid.  It's true that Guardian gets either the most taunts or 2nd most taunts, yippie!!!! who cares, as long as tank keeps hate i don't care how.  it's true that Guardians don't always have to be mt, i think we make great secondardy tanks aswell due to hp/def/sta buffs. what boggles my mind so, is that there is such hostility within the tanks, this isn't needed we all do the same dang thing, tank mobs.  plate may take hits more then brawlers, but if you were here to tell me that a guardian can avoid better then monk you are full of it.  the only reason guardian while in mt possition can avoid better then monk is healer buffs, not guardian buffs.  if monk was mt they would have 100% avoid easy.  can monks do alot of dmg, yes, yes they can, but they have to be in the dmg stance, they cannot tank a mob in dmg stance, but if they go to tank stance they can take a mob and no way out dmg scout.  the quest abiltiy devestating fist is still a question, it's no good in raids due to 5 min timer on skills, from what i'm told, not sure.  pallys/sk can tank just as good as guardian they can ward/heal/life tap themselves to increase hate and save from death. </P> <P>One thing people fail to realize is that there is a circle in tanking, you can either tank or do dmg, never both, if you see a monk do alot of dmg you WILL not see them tank, if you see a guardian tank, you will not see us on par with scout.  thing 2 guardian avoidance.  Ok i've played since beta, i'm a casual player, switch to hardcore recently i play guardian.  we have avoidance due to shield, if you were to look at the avoidance percentage break down, aka mouse over avoidance, you will see it says 30% parry and 20% agi with my current 100 agi, this is w/o a shield ok, thats 50%, yippie? ok with shield it goes up, imagine that, if you were to swing at me with a sword in real life, and i had a shield and i blocked it what the heck would that be called, avoiding the attack maybe? That is the ONLY reason we have high avoidance, but with shield and solo, monk's avoidance is 30-40% higher solo, those may be a little off, but you see the point.  </P> <P>is it true that monks mitigation needs to be raised, yes i believe so, even as tank if they don't avoid an attack and get hit, mob taking 1/4 life off of the monk is a little much, so i believe monk mitigation does need to be raised, but not up to guardians mit because [Removed for Content] is giving you that much mitigation, is your skin made of stone? but yes they should be able to take a hit a little better.  </P> <P>I'm not anywhere worried about guardians losing there place now as tank with most mitigation, because when we chose guardian over zerker, we gave up dmg is general, such as we do nowhere as much dmg as any other class, my highest dmg attack does 500 and thats on 30 sec timer, wehre mage/scout/monk/zerker and etc. have many spells that do that much.  We do have the highest life, but why gripe at that, we are the ones with the sta/hp/def buffs, thats our job, either buff ourselves or mt to get highest life. just like thats us complaining at monks for having most agi, that would be stupid, you have the agi buffs, no point into complaining.</P> <P>70% of all complaining in these forums is nothing but envy and jealousy, someone made an account and it didn't do as good as this class when doing this, or it does this and mine doesn't, heck i would love to have a spell that did 6k dmg to mob, but you know what i have a spell that has a chace to cast shout on my attack. i have a taunt that lowers mob attack rating.  deal with the card your dealt, don't worry about combat changes, when they haven't even hit test server yet, it could be months into the future and your complaining now, what they said earlier is not stone, it will change and make some people mad, but get used to it and welcome to the mmo world, things change.</P> <P>Ivellious-----Guardian----Antonia Bayle server</P>

[aislynn00]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>Besides EQL tought anyone that was a high lvl tank a simple leason.   Defense is King.  It does not suffer interrupts, fizzels, lack of mana,  and in some class cases, resists.   3 Lvls in this game has a major, major effect compared to self heals and taps in a raid situation.  Its out of balance</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>While I agree that paladins ought to tank more effectively than currently is the case, the above quote simply begs to be corrected:  We aren't talking three <EM>levels</EM>' worth of Defense; we're talking three <EM>points</EM> of Defense, which is the equivalent of 0.6 levels.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my view, the problem with paladins is two-fold: 1) they often have to use wards and hate-transferral buffs in order to hold aggro, and 2) wards and heals are too power-intensive when used repeatedly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the above issues were corrected, I think paladins would tank just fine given their current levels of avoidance and mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere<BR>Leader of Elysian Dawn<BR>Lucan D'Lere</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[RaptorBite]

<DIV>They are not making all other classes "better" but changing us around to be able to tank (you ever seen an SK tank a raid mob?), it has already been stated that guardians will still be the best there is.  Monks, Bruisers, Pallys, SKs, and Zerkers will recieve a DPS nerf to be more near the guardians.  But Guardians will still be the preferred tank... which i dont get because if guardians are still better than me (im an SK) and i have no DPS... then i provide nothing to a raid... so why would i receive an invite to a raid at all. (unless raids need off-tanks, then we will be of use)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways this is all stuff i heard, so dont quote me on it, and dont scream at me if im wrong. :smileyhappy:</DIV>

[Venomo]

I think the big issue for me is this :How will the combat rebalance affect the desireability of guardians in raids? A lot of classes have great skills that are either desired or required for raids, whether it be resists, heals, breezing, rezzing etc. Other classes are there to provide mellee dps. Guardians were there to tank, we've worked long and hard to do this to the best of our abilities. This was the primary reason for us choosing to be guardians.I don't begrudge other classes the oppertunity to be main tanks by any means but if you take away or reduce our primary ability what are we left with? It's hard enough as it is to justify having more than one or 2 guards in a raid as it is if there are more 'useful' classes available.If you are a raidleader what reason would you have to pick a guardian over another class if they are not MTing? If you look at most raid makeups you will appreciate that you desire/require amounts of certain classes/archetypes and have to tailor your group selection for each raid mob. Apart from tanking why would you pick a guardian over a zerker for example?For me i think the issue started a long way back, prior to beta even. Initially there were two types of heavy armour, plate and vanguard. Vanguard was going to be the guardians speciality and the other heavy classes were going to get plate. From beta onwards Vanguard has never been any different to plate and has been available to more classes than guardians. Tower shields went the same way - initially guardians only, now zerkers too, and with changes negligable difference to kite shields. Right from the start the abilities that were supposed to define and differentiate our class were dilutedSoE should have never stated that all archetypes would be able to do the same job equally well, all that seems to be happening is that the tank classes are becoming more similar, at this rate we may as well not have the choice of final class at level 20 as we're all going to be exactly the same.Part of the fun of mmorpgs is diversity, whether it be diversity of classes, diversity of graphics or diversity of abilities. If not just say to hell with it and scrap the class system and just have 4 choices - Healer, Mage, Scout and Fighter <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Guardians are at best a one trick pony, take that trick away and you may as well shoot the pony <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />We want diversity, individuality as a class and a reason to want to be guardians. Not to be tank no. 5 in a raid, only needed if no-one else turns up. You want to reduce our ability to tank, ok but replace it with something meaningful which still makes us useful if we are not MT. I for one am very interested to see what if any changes to our mainly usless line of 'protect' spells are in the pipeline - im hoping something that a) actually works and b) will make us a more useful class in non mt positionsClass and combat balancing needs to be done, but please consider the implications to the guardians role and usefulness, and do NOT let other classes ill perceived views on guardians cause you to nerf us into redundancy.All is just theory at the moment for the upcoming changes, but like a lot of us i think, I'm getting more and more worried that the future for us meat shields is not a rosy oneVen<p>Message Edited by Venomous on <span class=date_text>08-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:43 PM</span>

[Styk]

You know what this thread is pointless till Combat changes offically hit the test server....im willing to put money on it at that AT LEAST half of your fears will be pointless.... wait and see is an attitude yall should be taking Lets all stop the speculation for now till we have known knowledge about what is gonna happen to each fighter class, because for now its getting no where <div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Styker wrote:You know what this thread is pointless till Combat changes offically hit the test server....im willing to put money on it at that AT LEAST half of your fears will be pointless.... wait and see is an attitude yall should be taking Lets all stop the speculation for now till we have known knowledge about what is gonna happen to each fighter class, because for now its getting no where <div></div><hr></blockquote> Aye, the reality with SOE will be that half our fears will be pointless and the other half will turn out 10x as worse than we had thought =P  Not to mention the fears we never even though of. =P</span><div></div>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Venomous wrote:<BR>I think the big issue for me is this :<BR><BR><BR><BR>How will the combat rebalance affect the desireability of guardians in raids? <BR><BR><BR><BR>A lot of classes have great skills that are either desired or required for raids, whether it be resists, heals, breezing, rezzing etc. Other classes are there to provide mellee dps. <BR><BR><BR><BR>Guardians were there to tank, we've worked long and hard to do this to the best of our abilities. This was the primary reason for us choosing to be guardians.<BR><BR><BR><BR>I don't begrudge other classes the oppertunity to be main tanks by any means but if you take away or reduce our primary ability what are we left with? It's hard enough as it is to justify having more than one or 2 guards in a raid as it is if there are more 'useful' classes available.<BR><BR><BR><BR>If you are a raidleader what reason would you have to pick a guardian over another class if they are not MTing? <BR><BR><BR><BR>If you look at most raid makeups you will appreciate that you desire/require amounts of certain classes/archetypes and have to tailor your group selection for each raid mob. Apart from tanking why would you pick a guardian over a zerker for example?<BR><BR><BR><BR>For me i think the issue started a long way back, prior to beta even. Initially there were two types of heavy armour, plate and vanguard. Vanguard was going to be the guardians speciality and the other heavy classes were going to get plate. From beta onwards Vanguard has never been any different to plate and has been available to more classes than guardians. Tower shields went the same way - initially guardians only, now zerkers too, and with changes negligable difference to kite shields. Right from the start the abilities that were supposed to define and differentiate our class were diluted<BR><BR><BR><BR>SoE should have never stated that all archetypes would be able to do the same job equally well, all that seems to be happening is that the tank classes are becoming more similar, at this rate we may as well not have the choice of final class at level 20 as we're all going to be exactly the same.<BR><BR><BR><BR>Part of the fun of mmorpgs is diversity, whether it be diversity of classes, diversity of graphics or diversity of abilities. If not just say to hell with it and scrap the class system and just have 4 choices - Healer, Mage, Scout and Fighter <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR><BR>Guardians are at best a one trick pony, take that trick away and you may as well shoot the pony <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR><BR><BR><BR>We want diversity, individuality as a class and a reason to want to be guardians. Not to be tank no. 5 in a raid, only needed if no-one else turns up. You want to reduce our ability to tank, ok but replace it with something meaningful which still makes us useful if we are not MT. <BR><BR><BR><BR>I for one am very interested to see what if any changes to our mainly usless line of 'protect' spells are in the pipeline - im hoping something that a) actually works and b) will make us a more useful class in non mt positions<BR><BR><BR><BR>Class and combat balancing needs to be done, but please consider the implications to the guardians role and usefulness, and do NOT let other classes ill perceived views on guardians cause you to nerf us into redundancy.<BR><BR><BR><BR>All is just theory at the moment for the upcoming changes, but like a lot of us i think, I'm getting more and more worried that the future for us meat shields is not a rosy one<BR><BR><BR><BR>Ven <P>Message Edited by Venomous on <SPAN class=date_text>08-03-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is not just an issue with guardians this is an issue with all fighters. Especially non guard fighters. I feel bad for them they have it much much much much worse than you guys. Now that fighter dps has been nerfed (go checkout the test forums) guardians will be the only fighters that even get invited to raids. There will be exactly 0 reason to take any non guardian fighter on a raid. Once there are two guardians in the raid any other fighter including guardians will be completely pointless. But atleast guardians have a 2 in 24 or 1 in 12 chance of being needed for the raid all the other fighters will have a 0 in 24 or 0% chance of being needed for the raid.</P> <P>I saw an interesting point in the combat revamp notes that said fighters would have certain specialties when it comes to tanking. i.e. Paly will be good at resisting piercing dmg. </P> <P>Sounds interesting and will hopefully it will work to give other non guardian fighters a chance at getting to see the end game.</P> <P>i.e. if it doesnt work the best raid force would be (guardian,guardian,Templar,Mystic,Defiler,Inquisit or,Fury, Warden, Dige,Troubador,Swashbuckler,Brigand,Assasaign,Rang er,Coercer,Illusionist,Conjurer,Necromancer,Wizard ,Warlock,Warlock,Warlock,Templar,Inquisitor)</P> <P>i.e. if it does work the best raid force for Piercing mobs would be  (paly,paly,Templar,Mystic,Defiler,Inquisitor,Fury, Warden,Dirge,Troubador,Swashbuckler,Brigand,Assasa ign,Ranger,Coercer,Illusionist,Conjurer,Necromance r,Wizard,Warlock,Warlock,Warlock,Templar,Inquisito r)</P> <P>Im not sure on the other fighters tanking niches as they havent really stated them yet.</P> <P>Although that still doesn't solve the problem of only two fighters being needed for a raid. </P> <P>The best way i can see to fix this is give all fighters an upgrade to the intervene line that actually works and each fighter class would have its own unique buff attached to his/her link so that it would be most desireable to have each of the 6 fighter classes in that link to get the best effects of the buffs.</P> <P>If this were the case then the best raid force would be (guardian,berserker,Monk,Bruiser,Paladin,Shadowkni ght,Templar,Inquisitor,Warden,Fury,Mystic,Defiler, Brigand,Swashbuckler,Troubador,Dirge,Ranger,Assasa ign,Wizard,Warlock,Illusionist,Coercer,Necromancer ,Conjurer)</P> <P>This would give all non guardian fighters a purpose on raids.</P> <P>As of now on both live and test servers (even with the revamp on the test servers) excluding guardians there is not one thing that fighters can do that another class cant do much much much better.</P> <P> </P>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uzhiel feathered serpent wrote:<BR> <P>what im saying is that a paly in an MT grp can only self buff themselves to lvl 54 def, whereas a guard can buff themselves to a 57.</P> <P>In an MT grp, a Paly, zerker and 3 healers will be tanking at 3 def lvls lower than a guard. Now, if you were to substitute a guard for the zerker u could buff that paly higher, but how many guards would be willing to be an assist tank to a Paly? Not only that, but you guys just have more taunts than us. Its a known problem that paly aggro needs tweaking. </P> <P>But the point is, when all else falls flat, is that Palys DPS is getting nerfed down to guard DPS, which means we need to given the skills to tank EQUALLY to a guard.</P> <DIV>No paly that I know of signed up to be a rez bot at a raid...specially with the coming DPS nerf....Then ALL we would be is rez bots...and I'm not looking forward to that.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <SPAN class=date_text>07-25-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:24 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>ok but if they wanted to be a raid tank and tank hardest mobs in the game they should have taken a boring no dmg dealing guard.... that is what they signed up for... but no pallies wanted the horse the dmg the heals the rezzes.... if u wanted to tank the very best you shoudl have taken the class that was besta ttuned to it</P> <P> </P>

[Deadjest]

<P>Maybe people took the tank class they did because Guardian was not advertised as the best tank and instead the stated advertisement was steering us away from the old War of EQ?</P> <P>THIS could be a clue as to why people who want to MT didnt choose a Guardian.</P>

[Nazo]

<P>So all those heals etc... didnt ring any bells ? You didnt get suspicious when you realized you can self invis or evac ?</P> <P>Or did you just think oh those silly Guardians they cannot do anything I can I am so glad I chose a Crusader as Raid MT ?</P> <P>  <P>  <P>Sorry I know this is a dead horse but still irks me when I see people using all the extras available to their class till 50 and then suddenly go Raid MT crazy.</P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:50 PM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Which tank were you talking about that can self invis?   I know its not the one I am playing that is for sure.</P> <P>I find it amusing that people have no sense of logic about these things, they think one think automaticly discounts another.    The fail to realize it can go in any direction depending on ones views and most specialy on the developers views.</P> <P>A straight up fighter like a Guardian could be the Top Dog Tank.</P> <P>Or another Tank that Combines Magic with his Tanking abilities could be the Top Dog Tank.</P> <P>Its all opinion, logic has Nothing to do with it.</P> <P>What logic does deal with is the fact, Sony advertised one thing, and we got another. </P> <P>Why don't you try blaming the Game Company instead of the player base that only chose what they did with what they had to work with.   A little thought can go along way and avoid posts like this.</P>

[Airog]

Wait a tick, I would like to say something here. When I first started this game I went to SOE website, looked at classes, read descriptions, and said, hm, there we go, Guardian = Best Tank and least DPS out of fighters (which because I played EQ1 wasn't to hard to figure out Warrior=best class to tank, and I kinda figured by the name Guard>Tank then Zerker). I then proceeded to pick Guardian because I wanted to MT on raids. That's what I got, MT on raids, as was stated. Now we got people whining, I wanted to be a Pally MT, so, did you not read up on your class before hand? Did you not ask questions in game?Guardians are best Tank (in raid) and it should stay that way, in any raid, and if you whine you picked another class cause you thought differant, sorry, you thought WRONG.

[Nazo]

What logic does deal with is the fact, Sony advertised one thing, and we got another.  <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I DIDN'T !!!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I got exactly what I aimed for when I chose the class Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you search my various posts you will find that I fully ackowledge the right of every player to have fun with their character. IF you ask for everything though I cannot agree with that. Of course it is SoE's game as you said. Lots of people did a Crusader character and they had great fun with it till level 50. They cannot tank aid mobs now ? Well how many are you guys ? I am sure if you shout loud enough you can get what you want. Ask yourself though how sensible that is...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:22 AM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Lets review this a moment.</P> <P>I made my char the first day this game came out.   I went from EQL one day and the next, I was playing this game, nobody was even of noobie island yet when I started.   So who are we supposed to have talked to?</P> <P>Don't bring up, going to beta fourms, if you have game web site with the class discription, that is all you should need to base how you choose your chars.   Out of the many games I have played, I never had to go research any of them to figure out what I wanted, it was right there in the book that came with the game and the games pretty much reflected what it said.</P> <P>Also the class discriptions are right there.    Anyone with a decent reading comprehension, some history and some logic could easily figure out that any character that is called a Knight is the highest from of Protecter of them all.</P> <P>Couple that with you have Crusaders being called Juggernoughts of the Tanks, that to says, Top Dogs of tanking.</P> <P>Now basing that Sony advertiesed EQ2 was not like EQL and all Tanks could do the job but in a different way, I picked the style I wanted to do the same job as any other tank.</P> <P>Now I don't play a Paladin but if I was going to use straight logic in this, Paladins should have been the best when it came to Protecting a party.   Doesnt take more then monkey IQ to figure that out.</P> <P>Lets continue this, whither you use magic or not, does not make you the best or least tank.   Its just another form of tanking, it goes by the view the developer at that time, there is no bases in Logic that says ( Leaving Class Discripts out of this )  Straight Figher or Figher with Magic is best Tank.    It can go either way, it just depends on opinion.</P> <P>Now leaving opinion out of this, based off of Class Discription, and Sony Advertisement, many people picked what they did believing what they read which is pretty blatent in its discription.</P> <P>So I am sorry, I see no logic in these other arguments, I see peoples WANTS as the bases of many talks and not logic and balance behind it to match what was written and advertised.</P> <P>I think the biggest issue is what was advertised didnt happen and a mistake was let go for so long, it became part of what people thought was the standard of the game, which in the end result, when a fix comes along, creates alot of unhappy people.    I am a SK and from what I have read, we are going through some of the most massive changes compared to the other Fighters and I will have to relearn my class after being 50 for so long.  And we are taking some pretty hefty nerfs.</P> <P>Some of the nerfs are needed but others we are getting hit by, really change who we were.   So we are really going to end up being a new class.</P> <P> </P>

[blueduckie]

<P>That is really sad if you played eq1 and expected a hybrid tank to tank as well as a warrior. You can tank fine in groups and on raids tho. Cant tank to same lvl but have SK's tank mobs all the time we take down. Your problem is you want to be equal with bonus such as being more offensive having lifetaps sorry jig but guardians cant ward or heal themselves or summon up pets like crusaders. What is so discrete about it is other classes are not equal in the primary role. Nor would anyone who actually used logic in a game expect they needed different but equal paly abilities I consider the small edge predators will have in dps equal to no group invis or the group buffs. What are  you expecting 6 of the same class with diff skill names? Still cant get over you admitting you played eqlive and couldnt figure it out lol. However you are beating dead horse. Currently how changes look tanks wont be equal thank god. DPS classes wont be equal. Priests looking pretty even tho. I do not know how finished they are on priests / fighters at this point. Reroll if you dont like it though. Gaige whole crusade if you picked a monk not expecting a tank you picked wrong. Well the real crusade is if you didnt pick guardian you shouldnt expect to tank best. Getting so old the ccc about my class cant tank. Just reroll if you dont like it or go play a different game.</P> <P>Oh before you say youd give up all this crap like dps and these skills you dont give any credit to being good just understand all your saying is youd change your class into being the exact same thing as a guardian with out rerolling. Lame is the only way to explain that ideal. Read all the descriptions played eqlive knew exactly what would be the best tank. Knew what would be the best dps classes too. It was really easy if you actually tried to comprehend what it said. Your a dark tank that while defending yourself against melee your trying to be a evil little wicca wannabe while a guardian on other hand is putting its full focus on the heat of melee wow that so difficult to understand. Get over it. Go to your lil sk forums and cry about how much you suck if you dont like your class.</P>

[dparker7]

<HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>Lets review this a moment.</P> <P>I made my char the first day this game came out.   I went from EQL one day and the next, I was playing this game, nobody was even of noobie island yet when I started.   So who are we supposed to have talked to?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Beta Testers.  Or you could have posted on the forums or sent an IM to a Mod or Dev.  Seeing as the first several levels just take a few hours, it would be easy enough to reroll early on.</FONT></P> <P>Don't bring up, going to beta fourms, if you have game web site with the class discription, that is all you should need to base how you choose your chars.   Out of the many games I have played, I never had to go research any of them to figure out what I wanted, it was right there in the book that came with the game and the games pretty much reflected what it said.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>The very small descriptions on the site might have clued you into the fact you should have sought more information.  Personally, if Im going to invest so much time into a character I take the time to get enough information to figure out exactly what I want.</FONT></P> <P>Also the class discriptions are right there.    Anyone with a decent reading comprehension, some history and some logic could easily figure out that any character that is called a Knight is the highest from of Protecter of them all.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>Knight 1 a </STRONG>(1) <B>:</B> a mounted man-at-arms serving a feudal superior; <I>especially</I> <B>:</B> a man ceremonially inducted into special military rank usually after completing service as page and squire </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>Warrior :</STRONG> a man engaged or experienced in warfare; <I>broadly</I> <B>:</B> a person engaged in some struggle or conflict <poverty <I>warrior</I><I>s</I>> </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>Guardian 1</STRONG> <B>:</B> one that guards<B>: <FONT size=-1>CUSTODIAN</FONT></B><BR><B>3</B> <B>:</B> one who has the care of the person or property of another</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99><STRONG>Paladin 1</STRONG> <B>:</B> a trusted military leader (as for a medieval prince)<BR><B>2</B> <B>:</B> a leading champion of a cause </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99><FONT color=#ffff99><B>crusader</B> 1: a disputant who</FONT> advocates reform 2: a warrior who engages in a holy war; "the crusaders tried to recapture the Holy Land from the Muslims"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>The first 3 are from Merriam-Webster.com, last one from dictionary.com</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>First of, there are no knights in EQ2 unless you count the titles you can get at guild level 30.  Of the remaining terms guardian lends itself most readily to the idea of a MT - someone that prevents a whole mess of people from pounding on them.  Leading champion would imply the best all around single combat fighter, which the MT normally is not, and the MT is also not necessarily a leader (its been a while since military commanders stood in the most dangerous ground on the battlefield).</FONT></P><!-- google_ad_region_end=def --> <P>Couple that with you have Crusaders being called Juggernoughts of the Tanks, that to says, Top Dogs of tanking.</P> <P></P><FONT color=#ffff99><B>Juggernaut 2</B> <B>:</B> a massive inexorable force, campaign, movement, or object that crushes whatever is in its path <an advertising <I>juggernaut</I>> <a political <I>juggernaut</I>> </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99><IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://www.m-w.com/images/pixt.gif" width=10 border=0></FONT> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Again taken from Merriam-Webster.com.  Crushing what lies in your path implies high damage output.  MTs traditionally have sat there while others crush the opponent from behind. </FONT></P> <P>Now basing that Sony advertiesed EQ2 was not like EQL and all Tanks could do the job but in a different way, I picked the style I wanted to do the same job as any other tank.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>They said all tanks could fulfill their core role in MOST situations.  This is currently true.  I've seen all manner of tank MT Drayek (though a conjurer's pet might have been better than all of them).  Now, for less than 50 encounters in the entire game, a plate tank is really needed.  For say 25 a warrior is needed.  For maybe 15 a guardian is needed.  Sounds to me like they'd fulfilled that initial statement fairly well.</FONT></P> <P>Now I don't play a Paladin but if I was going to use straight logic in this, Paladins should have been the best when it came to Protecting a party.   Doesnt take more then monkey IQ to figure that out.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Well, thats based on your preconceptions.  Considering the main guardian skill is protection, apparently SOE doesnt agree with your assessment. </FONT></P> <P>Lets continue this, whither you use magic or not, does not make you the best or least tank.   Its just another form of tanking, it goes by the view the developer at that time, there is no bases in Logic that says ( Leaving Class Discripts out of this )  Straight Figher or Figher with Magic is best Tank.    It can go either way, it just depends on opinion.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Being MT isnt necessarily the same as being the best tank.  Its merely the best tank for a raid target, a very small segment of the total encounters in the game.  I realize its significant, but if it weren't people wouldnt be willing to give up the bells and whistles while leveling to gain the advantage on these select targets.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>These advantages are key, because any experience with raiding in EQ1 should have informed you that raids are all about maximizing performance of each member.  To that end, the classes with only the core abilities in tanking and healing took the primary roles on raids because they were best suited for those roles.  Others needed to adapt and figure out what thing they were best at and focus solely on that.  There are of course exceptions, but the MT is the focal point of all raids in EQ1 and EQ2.  The MT slot most requires a character that is focused on their primary role as there is only 1 at a time.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Futhermore, any amount of healing or high DPS would require the removal of some pure tanking ability in xp groups to balance against a class that has none of those.  In a raid those ancillary skills are not particularly worthwhile because you already have the best classes performing those roles.  Raiding requires people to work together to best utilize the available resources of the whole and has always forced some classes into roles they didnt expect (look at Wizards being best suited to mana dumping in many cases)</FONT></P> <P>Now leaving opinion out of this, based off of Class Discription, and Sony Advertisement, many people picked what they did believing what they read which is pretty blatent in its discription.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Guardians can don the heaviest armors to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies.  They stand firm against any threat and bear the brunt of attacks while felling opponents with any variety of weapons.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Crusaders are armored defenders that call upon divine powers to aid them in battle.  They wield a variety of weapons in combat and are capable of dealing impressive physical damage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Paladins are crusaders for all things good and right.  Wearing heavy armor, these valient defenders of truth fight for honor, virtue, and nobility.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Shadowknights are insidious dark crusaders who use the power of evil to advance their causes.  They live to inflict fear, hate, and despair on all who cross their paths.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Straight from the manual I got with the game.  How exactly is the Guardian description misleading?  Heaviest, not heavy armor.  Any threat.  Felling, sawing down over time, low DPS.  Those scream raid MT.  </FONT></P> <P>So I am sorry, I see no logic in these other arguments, I see peoples WANTS as the bases of many talks and not logic and balance behind it to match what was written and advertised.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>I think part of the problem is that you've a different idea of what some of these words mean.</FONT></P> <P>I think the biggest issue is what was advertised didnt happen and a mistake was let go for so long, it became part of what people thought was the standard of the game, which in the end result, when a fix comes along, creates alot of unhappy people.    I am a SK and from what I have read, we are going through some of the most massive changes compared to the other Fighters and I will have to relearn my class after being 50 for so long.  And we are taking some pretty hefty nerfs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Guardians are probably getting hit hardest buy the big ugly stick, though I cant say it isnt deserved.  In MotM we need to start to debuff our MT when the white adds come so that the reactives can tick so he can hold agro easily - thats pretty broken.</FONT></P> <P>Some of the nerfs are needed but others we are getting hit by, really change who we were.   So we are really going to end up being a new class.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>And people that took time to research what was the best class for an MT in this game would like to continue being the best class for an MT, at least in most situations.  Ideally, we'd like not to end up with a new class, though I imagine many will.</FONT><BR></P><BR> <P>Message Edited by dparker713 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:19 AM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by dparker713 on <SPAN class=date_text>08-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:27 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by dparker713 on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:01 AM</span>

[Airog]

Haha! You are the F***ing man dparker713!! You really torn him a new one.

[Deadjest]

<DIV>Heh, I find what I read rather half baked and twisted out of perportion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One, I never stated in the last few posts what I personaly wanted.   I never said I thought SKs should keep the kind of DPS we had and on posts in other places I didnt think we shouldnt even come close to that kind of DPS and got booed for it.   And the very idea that some sad sacks are still comparing and useing EQ1 as a bases is laughable at best.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alot more was read in the last few post then actualy existed.   I stated some things that were happing to us but never said what I wanted.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As to doing research on a class, that kind of research when a game is so new and you have the book in front of you is absurd and borders on get a life.   There is no way in H ELL  you should have to do research like that in a fresh game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There no logic that even comes close to backing a idea in a 6 Tank system that one tank should take up the role of MT on raids.   The very idea is absurd,  the side effects to that type of thinking normaly end up where you either have a Raid Tank that is underpowered in groups and needs help to lvl, or a Raid Tank that is over powered in a group situtation do to its one trick pony nature.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alos anyone notice in line two of Crusader it says, A Warrior who enguages in a Holy War.   That itself would lend you to believe that a Crusader is a Warrior Plus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Juggernought is a Inexorable Force, anyone even think to logic that one out and think what it would take to be a Inexorable Force?   You would have to be unstoppable to deliver such damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No these arguments are very very weak which is what I despise.   They are filled with wants and that is it. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even in the class description under Armors it lists Heavy and Vanguard under both Warrior and Crusader,  That in itself should be a clue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game does not match what it advertised and that is a fact, and the revamp won't match it either.   The first part is the issue, the second isnt so much, that is another talk all together.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue is the game is to based towards Attack vs Defense and that is a very finite field to play in.   Having so many class's you have to have more then that, all class's even Guardians should have a more then what we just have now and done in a way that seperates us but not totaly based on the field of Attack vs Defense. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Deadjester wrote:<BR></P> <DIV>Alos (sp) anyone notice in line two of Crusader it says, A Warrior who enguages in a Holy War.   That itself would lend you to believe that a Crusader is a Warrior Plus.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff99>It says a crusader is a defender.  I went and looked it up again to double check, but thats exactly what it says.  Not warrior.  Not warrior plus.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Juggernought (sp) is a Inexorable Force, anyone even think to logic that one out and think what it would take to be a Inexorable Force?   You would have to be unstoppable to deliver such damage.</DIV> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>Inexorable adj 1: not to be placated or appeased or moved by entreaty; "grim determination"; "grim necessity"; "Russia's final hour, it seemed, approached with inexorable certainty"; "relentless persecution"; "the stern demands of parenthood" [syn: </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>grim</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>relentless</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>stern</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>unappeasable</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>unforgiving</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>unrelenting</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>] 2: not capable of being swayed or diverted from a course; unsusceptible to persuasion; "he is adamant in his refusal to change his mind"; "Cynthia was inexorable; she would have none of him"- W.Churchill; "an intransigent conservative opposed to every liberal tendancy" [syn: </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>adamant</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>adamantine</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>, </FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>intransigent</FONT><FONT color=#ffff99>]</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff99>From dictionary.com.  I used a longer definition in hopes you'd read it.  I probably should have defined this in the last thread, but I figured you'd look it up.  Your use of inexorable is just plain wrong.  Its not unstoppable, its pigheaded.  They can certainly lose, and lose quite badly, but they wont run away.  They'll always fall headlong into the battle.  (Kinda screwy that SKs get evac by this definition)</FONT></P></DIV> <DIV>The issue is the game is to based towards Attack vs Defense and that is a very finite field to play in.   Having so many class's you have to have more then that, all class's even Guardians should have a more then what we just have now and done in a way that seperates us but not totaly based on the field of Attack vs Defense. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff99>The game has Attack, Defense, Healing and In Combat Utility (buffs, mezzes, stuns, stiffles, etc.)  Those are the only categories that matter.  There are more than 2 abilities to balance, which is why its so hard to balance all 24 classes.  </FONT><BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I decided to leave the rest of your post without comment as I didnt think it presented anything new for me to comment on. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Fact of the matter is that one tank will emerge as the preferred tank as a general MT for raids, unless outfitting 6 tanks proves to be the optimal method of raiding.  Given fabled drop rates in this game I seriously doubt that will prove true.  Oddly, the class currently favored as a raid MT would prefer to remain the raid MT, since many chose the class because the literature clearly denoted to anyone with decent reading comprehension and vocabulary that Guardians were the class designed for raid MT.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Unfortunately, the way SOE saw fit to balance raiding was to remove the need for anymore than 2 or 3 plate wearing tanks in a raid.  They've removed DPS from the zerker, pally and SK.  They've removed the battle rez and lowered the heals of the pally.  Given that only a few tanks in any given encounter can get beat on, it'll be interesting to see the roles developed for those extra tanks in a raid.  On the whole, it seems to me that there will be way too many raid level tanks and not nearly enough raids for them to attend. </DIV><p>Message Edited by dparker713 on <span class=date_text>08-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:05 PM</span>

[Airog]

Well, I refer to my last post, 3posts up, re-read it, just as true now as then. You really need to think things through before posting Deadjester.

[Deadjest]

<P>So now you are saying Warrior was not in the definition that your wrote?  That you made a mistake after all that research?</P> <P>heh this is getting good now.</P>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>So now you are saying Warrior was not in the definition that your wrote?  That you made a mistake after all that research?</P> <P>heh this is getting good now.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Actually, Im saying that your reading comprehension was poor and that you misquoted me, and also the text you claim supports your position.  I'd suggest that you actually critically read what both of us have written instead of becoming immediately defensive.  I merely double checked because it was prudent to make sure I had not misquoted the literature from the initial game package.

[Srav]

Look what Sony did!!! Now we are all equal Tanks woot Thank You Sony!!!!!!!!!! <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v295/Sraven/gingerbreadmenbaket.jpg"> <div></div>

[Zodi]

<DIV>Let me ask an honest question:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why there are so many other classes whinning about this issue?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>IT is not an excuse to say  that you bought the game the very first day and thenyou couldnt talk to anyone to get hints. HAVE SOME PRIDE AND FIND THE ANSWER FOR YOURSELF. That just a pathetic excuse. If you decided to play a monk , is because you like to be a monk. Now that people figure out that guardians are "the best tanksfor raids" they want the guardian abilities. If you decided to play an SK, Paladin, etc. and you want to be a MT, try it first. If it doesnt work and you still think you need the abilites of a guardian. For  the love of GOD, have some pride and make an alternate. EARN IT, DONT WHINE FOR IT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope the changes SOE are making are for the true benefit of the game and not to please a bunch of people whining about an issue. If that the case the next thing we will be seeing in a near future will be:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>"OH CRAP I made a Human-guardian and I ended with less HPS than a OGRE-Guardian. What can I do?,..... What should I do?... I know what I will do..... I will go the forums and pour my heart out to SOE."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Like I said from the before, I hope SOE is doing these changes for the benefit of the game. I hope that the end all classes benefit and get better. I dont want to see any class nerfed on the contrary I want to see all classes rock. At the same I want individuality in each class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(IT HAS BEEN MANY YEARS BUT IT GOES SOMETHING LIKE THIS)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00> <P><B><FONT size=6>R</FONT>ecognizing</B> that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of the Rangers. </P> <P><B><FONT size=6>A</FONT>cknowledging</B> the fact that a Ranger is a more elite soldier who arrives at the cutting edge of battle by land, sea, or air, I accept the fact that as a Ranger my country expects me to move further, faster, and fight harder than any other soldier. </P> <P><B><FONT size=6>N</FONT>ever</B> shall I fail my comrades. I will always keep myself mentally alert, physically strong, and morally straight and I will shoulder more than my share of the task whatever it may be, one hundred percent and then some. </P> <P><B><FONT size=6>G</FONT>allantly</B> will I show the world that I am a specially selected and well trained soldier. My courtesy to superior officers, neatness of dress, and care of equipment shall set the example for others to follow. </P> <P><B><FONT size=6>E</FONT>nergetically</B> will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country. </P> <P><B><FONT size=6>R</FONT>eadily</B> will I display the intestinal fortitude required to fight on to the Ranger objective and complete the mission, though I be the lone survivor. Rangers lead the way. </P> <P> </P></FONT></DIV><p>Message Edited by Zodian on <span class=date_text>08-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 AM</span>

[Deadjest]

<P>Since you are doing all this research and still taking it out of context, you might want to look up the Codes the different Knight orders had, for that is the actual definition of a Knight.</P> <P>And when you say Defender, that itself implys Guardian,  look this is not hard, playing word games here is not going to work.  I don't even play a Paladin and its logical that they should have been the best if you go from a Protecter point of view.</P> <P>Look, I can argue you this all day, and next month if you like, it has nothing to do with my views but I can argue this half baked thinking.  For me this is kids stuff.<BR></P> <P>Pesonaly without going into detail unless sombody wants to hear it, I happen to and have always thought  from a Mitigation point of view that all the other Tanks SHOULD Tank Less then a Guardian for Game Balance purposes.</P> <P>My position is that the Very Idea of any one class being made for the express purpose of being a Raid MT, is absurd and short bus thinking with no logic to back it up.   Now Sony may want it that way, but that has nothing to do with logic and that is just a Want of the Game Producer, but if they take that route, then they do, nothing I can do about that.</P> <P>I think Sony has a Game here that highly under used in its capabilities and can go much farther then it has.</P> <P>Right now, I think the Game has backed itself into a corner with their limited views of Attack and Defense being their only defining feature.  It can go much farther then it is now and even the revamp in tanking keeping the same simplistic approch, just changing things around.   The ground rules are already there, they just need to learn how to use them more creatively.</P> <P>There should be no one trick ponies class's, all the Tanks should have Tanking as their Prime based off of their class and then a Utility added to it also based off their class.  That will widen their herizons and create a more tatical eviroment over all and the class's won't be backed into such a tiny corner so much.</P> <P>What I am curious and hopeing is the fact the revamp may be just a simple fix and its their future expansions are where they will actualy start making the class's more creative.  From a money making view this would be more logical then putting it all in the revamp, but its just a hope at the moment.   But I do believe most of our problems is do to lack of creativity so we are backed into Tiny corners of number crunching characters.   The ground work is already there, it just needs to be used.</P>

[Nazo]

The way things are going all will end up as carbon copy because everyone wants to Solo, Group Tank and Raid Tank equally. Add to this weird soup we got 4 classes based on mitigation and 2 on avoidance and you end up with a total mess.

[Deadjest]

<P>I have to agree with you Naz.</P> <P>I am almost 40 yrs old now and have been playing RPGs, Board Games, PC games for a long time,  I started DnD when I was in the 6th grade.</P> <P>I fail to understand how this game with so many people with degrees in this and that, can't come up with a solution better then this.   It should not be hard to make all Tanks Tank, but be better in certain areas then the next Tank.   Making us greater and weaker then each other depending on the mobs we are facing due to magic, weapon style and special attacks,  but EQUAL in the end result in the big picture.</P> <P>So much more can be done with these class's then they are doing.   Each Tank can have its own nitch on top of Tanking.</P> <P>I was reading the Paladin revamp, and I see a few Anti-Undead abilities poping up.  The all seem to be offensive at the moment but hopefuly they will get some Defensive vs Undead, that would really make them the prefered Tank there.</P> <P>Stuff like that can be done for everyone.  So on a indvidual lvl, we would not be Equal but as a whole we are.</P> <P>That is the route I think is the correct way to go.   I am and never have been Anti-Guardian, I am just anti to the idea of creating a MT role when you have so many Tanks.   But dropping the Guardian down and making us all cookie cutters is not what I call enjoyable.   I would like to see us with different abilites, things that seperate us but do not make us obsolet to each other.</P> <P>One of the biggest joys I have is working with different Tanks from myself, covering each others weakness and each tank stepping foward that is best for the encounter and working together for the win.   </P> <P>One of my concerns now is that I mainly work in groups that have 3 Tanks, Healer, Warlock and Bard.   Tanks are, SK ( ME ), Zerker and Guardian.   Zerker does most of the Tanking with the Guardian and I throwing our  Def/Off buffs on him.   With all the Tanks taking a DPS hit, I am concerned what that will do to our group dynamic.    I know from what I read, I lost most of my Offense and Defense debuffs so I am also concerned how we will support each other, other then our weak DPS.</P>

[Airog]

Call me ol' fashioned (EQ1) but I think Guardians should be superior raid MT's in every way, shape, and form.

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR>Call me ol' fashioned (EQ1) but I think Guardians should be superior raid MT's in every way, shape, and form. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>LOL the same thought crosses my mind every time I log on but looking at the combat changes and the stuff I'm hearing from guildies beta testing Desert of Flames our job as raid main tanks probably isn't in any serious jeopardy (sp). </DIV>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Deadjester wrote:<BR> <P>Since you are doing all this research and still taking it out of context, you might want to look up the Codes the different Knight orders had, for that is the actual definition of a Knight.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>No, that is a definition of a knight in a certain context.  Its appropriate to use the most general context unless there is a specific reason to use a more refined context.  Given that what you say should be blatantly obvious does not hold true, it would seem the general dictionary definition is most apt.  Also, you have ignored the point that there is no knight class in this game.  There is a shadowknight subclass, but the class is crusader.  </FONT></P> <P>And when you say Defender, that itself implys Guardian,  look this is not hard, playing word games here is not going to work.  I don't even play a Paladin and its logical that they should have been the best if you go from a Protecter point of view.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>Quoting the definitions of words is not playing word games.  Your logic is based upon the wrong definitions and is therefore faulty.  Also, if you need to imply a primary role, that would seem to indicate that they are not as effective in the primary role.</FONT></P> <P>Look, I can argue you this all day, and next month if you like, it has nothing to do with my views but I can argue this half baked thinking.  For me this is kids stuff.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>You've not actually made any points to argue.  You've merely stuck to your belief about the meaning of certain words in this context without any support.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Pesonaly without going into detail unless sombody wants to hear it, I happen to and have always thought  from a Mitigation point of view that all the other Tanks SHOULD Tank Less then a Guardian for Game Balance purposes.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>And why exactly in a raid situation with 1 target would you not want the highest mitigation, highest HP character as the MT?  </FONT></P> <P>My position is that the Very Idea of any one class being made for the express purpose of being a Raid MT, is absurd and short bus thinking with no logic to back it up.   Now Sony may want it that way, but that has nothing to do with logic and that is just a Want of the Game Producer, but if they take that route, then they do, nothing I can do about that.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>Logic dictates that no matter how you balance classes overall, the encounters will dictate which class is best suited as a raid MT.  Seeing as the majority of damage in many raids come from crushing damage from a ^^^, one tank will perform best in this situation.  The only way to avoid this is to make all tanks cookie cutters.   </FONT></P> <P>I think Sony has a Game here that highly under used in its capabilities and can go much farther then it has.</P> <P>Right now, I think the Game has backed itself into a corner with their limited views of Attack and Defense being their only defining feature.  It can go much farther then it is now and even the revamp in tanking keeping the same simplistic approch, just changing things around.   The ground rules are already there, they just need to learn how to use them more creatively.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>I can understand ignoring incombat utility, because its often in the background or hard to see, but how can you ingnore healing?  I am however wondering what other combat roles there can be other than damage, damage absorbtion, healing and incombat utility.  </FONT></P> <P>There should be no one trick ponies class's, all the Tanks should have Tanking as their Prime based off of their class and then a Utility added to it also based off their class.  That will widen their herizons and create a more tatical eviroment over all and the class's won't be backed into such a tiny corner so much.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff66>Every class gets backed into a corner in a raid situation, if they arent then the encounters become trivial for the optimal group makeups.  Currently, crusaders need their taunts upped for normal groups, but they're fine otherwise and can tank anyzone outside of Icy Digs.</FONT></P> <P>What I am curious and hopeing is the fact the revamp may be just a simple fix and its their future expansions are where they will actualy start making the class's more creative.  From a money making view this would be more logical then putting it all in the revamp, but its just a hope at the moment.   But I do believe most of our problems is do to lack of creativity so we are backed into Tiny corners of number crunching characters.   The ground work is already there, it just needs to be used.</P> <FONT color=#ffff66>6 classes, all supposed to do the same role in a myriad of situations yet none of them can be overpowered in any.  Those are rather hefty constraints on creativity.</FONT><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Deadjest]

<P>I find your rebutle rather sad and very very weak.</P> <P>Fact is you choose the definition that suites you for a Knight.   The dictinonary term is a very bland in its description but it implies everything you say it doesnt.</P> <P>Crusaders for purpose of this talk ARE Knights, to think other wise is absurd and twisted to say the least, I have friends who play Guardians and I told them what you said and they laughed.</P> <P>As for always wanting the best tank with the best mitigation is true for a raid, but that mitigation can be in spell effects, the spells work just like the physical damage does and those resists are mitigation.    So its easy to have a tank fight a mob that is moderate in the physical attacks but heavy on the magical ones and have a tank witht he best Magical Mitigation take MT stance.</P> <P>As for creativity being backed into a corner, I would say you are correct if you creativity is very limited.   But this game can easily do it, its all here all ready.</P> <P>It would not be hard to have Paladins have a Hefty  boost in Divine, Poison and Disease Mitigation and have Shadow Knights have a Hefty bonus in Magic, Poison and Disease Mitigation.  Even have Zerkers have a really strong Mental Mitigation and Brawlers a hefty bonus in Fire and Cold Mitigation.</P> <P>It can even be broken down further if you like for the creativity is not stuck in a corner yet.</P> <P>You can have Crusaders have an extra special attacks in Shield fighting with stun effects, Brawlers could have special avoidance vs combat arts from the mobs or to make it simplier, just the combat arts that effect their speical resists.</P> <P>There is nothing to support a one tank system other then WANT.   Becasue it certainly not need or game mechanics that stops it.</P> <P>And still the Guardian comes out with the best Physical Mitigation and more HP.   Each now has a nich and is still viable.</P> <P>And still you can go even farther if you add a type of Combat Utilty to each class.</P> <P>It would not be hard to see, Guardians using Intervene, Paladins using Wards and ShadowKnights using the Ractive/Wards, Brawlers extending their Avoidance as their way of protecting group members.   Different but effective to a greater and lesser degree between the different tanks and they could all support each other with the best tank for the job stepping foward.</P> <P>And I am sure this is not the bottom line and even more can be done.   And it can all be done with what we already have here.</P> <P>There is NO LOGIC that supports a one MT Class System with all that is available here.</P> <P>I see nothing to back up what you say so far.   Even under your Crusader defination, it says Crusaders are Warriors which you term as the class defining feature.</P>

[Airog]

<P>Deadjester wrote: "I have friends who play Guardians and I told them what you said and they laughed."</P> <P>You don't have to lie to kick it homie. Just admit the truth, you have no friends.</P>

[Styk]

I can accept that i will never tank as well as Guardians/Paladins will in the combat changes ( defense wise that is ) . But most of you do understand that they are making new encounters that will take advantage of each fighter types strengths right? Like it or not, that is how SoE sees the game will progress. Guardians will still be the super tank defense wise and prolly hp wise, doesnt mean thou that you will be the best tank in every situation ..... Maybe yall should think about that before worrying so much about being the "primary tank" <div></div>

[Wasuna]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>I can accept that i will never tank as well as Guardians/Paladins will in the combat changes ( defense wise that is ) . But most of you do understand that they are making new encounters that will take advantage of each fighter types strengths right? <BR><BR>Like it or not, that is how SoE sees the game will progress. Guardians will still be the super tank defense wise and prolly hp wise, doesnt mean thou that you will be the best tank in every situation ..... <BR><BR>Maybe yall should think about that before worrying so much about being the "primary tank" <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Then give Guardians utility through the first 50 levels like all other fighter classes have. You can't hit 50 and all the sudden forget that you had more fun and an easier time getting where you got than we did. Now you want to Raid tank becasue all your little class perks are no longer fun for you. Guess what, I levled to 50 pressing a variety of taunt CA's. That's it. I didn't have anything else. Now after 50 levels of taunt this and taunt that I want to tank big nasties becasue that is all I'm good at. If the combat changes take away all of your fun stuff for your class and then make us all equal tanks then I'm fine with it. Unfortunatly I only see a watering down of Guardian and no additions to make us more fun. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Other classes are getting hit pretty hard also so we'll just have to see how it all shakes out.</DIV>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>I can accept that i will never tank as well as Guardians/Paladins will in the combat changes ( defense wise that is ) . But most of you do understand that they are making new encounters that will take advantage of each fighter types strengths right? <BR><BR>Like it or not, that is how SoE sees the game will progress. Guardians will still be the super tank defense wise and prolly hp wise, doesnt mean thou that you will be the best tank in every situation ..... <BR><BR>Maybe yall should think about that before worrying so much about being the "primary tank" <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its pretty simple.  There will be 1 hardest encounter.  Only one.  That will determine the most efficient class to be primary MT because of the drop rates in this game.  Why spend 6 months gearing up 6 tanks, and then be able to beat the hardest encounter.  Instead, you could gear up 1 tank in 2 months to take the hardest encounter and, while not as efficient, he can also tank the majority of the other encounters.    <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, while everyone needs to spend time relearning their class, players that have not yet been MTs have a bigger learning curve than those players that have already been MTs.  Learning generally means wipes.  And wipes are no fun, well... most of the time.</DIV>

[Deadjest]

<P>Airoguy, be my friend, I need that "special" buddy.</P> <P>As to the other,  even the ecounters can be changed to more deal with a multi tank system.</P> <P>The game is young content wise and now would be the time to do it.</P> <P>Its that simple</P>

[Airog]

<DIV>Haha, bring over some beer and we can kick it bro. As far as the special thing goes, um, no. Definitely not, unless you are a fine a** female. In that case I'll bring some wine when we kick it.</DIV>

[Lareal]

  Just wanted to say Hi to all the guardians out there, and let you know that not all of us other fighter classes begrudge you the roll as MT. I'm a 50 Monk, can tank just fine in 1-2 group content, and am perfectly happy to leave it at that. Trust me there are a lot of us that feel this way, check out other classes boards you'll see plenty of post about it.   Unfortunately it's only natural that the folks who are unhappy with the status quo, and want change, will be the most vocal. Just look at the Gaige's number of posts. Not sure when he has time to raid. They are all entitled to their opinions, but many of us monks would have no problems taking a small DPS nerf(to put us below scouts), and leaving the MT job to Guardians for the most part. Although I do believe a FEW situational encounters should be thrown in where another classes might be more beneficial as MT. Not a large number, but there's nothing wrong with variety.   Regardless of what some the posts say about what SOE said at the very beginning, I started this game KNOWING that as a monk I would most likely not be the MT on a raid. It was pretty obvious really: How could the classes be balanced if I can tank as well as a Guard AND out DPS him by a large margin? Why would anyone play a guard if that were the case? Why would guilds want a Guard?   Personally I'm pretty upset at having to relearn my Monk this late in the game. If I wasn't happy as a Monk I would have switched classes or quit long ago.   Someone said in a earlier post here that fighters don't have roles i they are not MT or MA. LOL, then what do they do on raids, hit auto-attack and sit back? With most guilds I've seen, Monks Stifle(Best in the game atm), Palis rez(w/dirges best in the game combat rezzes atm), Zerkers MA, off-tank, DPS and add a LOT of good group buffs to a DPS group. Not sure of Bruisers/SKs 'cause don't have many raiding with us, but the points is that most of us have a role already.  Anyway Thanks to all of you for keeping that big, bad-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] mob's attention on you, so I can beat on it without getting squished. Lareal <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Lareal wrote:<BR>Just look at the Gaige's number of posts. Not sure when he has time to raid. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Raiding?  What's raiding.<BR>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> dparker713 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>I can accept that i will never tank as well as Guardians/Paladins will in the combat changes ( defense wise that is ) . But most of you do understand that they are making new encounters that will take advantage of each fighter types strengths right? <BR><BR>Like it or not, that is how SoE sees the game will progress. Guardians will still be the super tank defense wise and prolly hp wise, doesnt mean thou that you will be the best tank in every situation ..... <BR><BR>Maybe yall should think about that before worrying so much about being the "primary tank" <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its pretty simple.  There will be 1 hardest encounter.  Only one.  That will determine the most efficient class to be primary MT because of the drop rates in this game.  Why spend 6 months gearing up 6 tanks, and then be able to beat the hardest encounter.  Instead, you could gear up 1 tank in 2 months to take the hardest encounter and, while not as efficient, he can also tank the majority of the other encounters.    <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, while everyone needs to spend time relearning their class, players that have not yet been MTs have a bigger learning curve than those players that have already been MTs.  Learning generally means wipes.  And wipes are no fun, well... most of the time.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>And what if that 1 hardest encounter in the entire game needs the combined effort of the <STRONG><U>entire</U></STRONG> Fighter class to defeat, not just soley relied upon one class to be king of the mountain at the time till new content comes along with a challenge that is more suited to the next class to crown him king of the mountain etc etc which is the reason to gearing 6+ tanks because you dont know whats going to be around the corner, the most succesful Guilds in MMORPG's are the most prepared Guilds. Always prepare for the unexpected, especially now days in MMORPG's.</P> <P>There will be class's who contuine on the road of being a more offensive class and there will be players who chose to be a more defensive type after the CC, not much is going to change because for the people who MT alot now reguardless of wether its Raid or Group encounters, tanking in general is all the same for them, keep agro, its really not that hard, so for example a person who wanted to take a stab at tanking all he really needs to know is how to control agro, thats about it. CA's are self explanitory and not hard to follow, so its not hard to know what CA's to use and what not to use to minmize damage taken. </P> <P>The only thing that takes time is learning what stacks and what doesnt, which is based upon a Raid party and not based upon any one person, this is whats going to take the most time out of the entire Combat Changes and its relearning what stacks and what doesnt in the sense of Solo, Group and Raid formation, the rest people will pick back up in no time.</P> <P>Its like learning to ride a bike, once you know how you never forget.</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>08-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:30 PM</span>

[SkySteal]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Gage,</P> <P>Sometimes it helps to hear these comments from strangers....your crying. Your whinning, complaining and sniffling screaming "Not fair, not fair, not fair!" at SoE. I can only imagine you stomping around your house and kicking your dog every time your guild asks a guardian to MT.</P> <P>Some personal observation about you here:</P> <P>You want to MT, fine. Why did you make a monk? (Can't wait to hear your answer.)</P> <P>You complain your being compared to, or being ranked with 'scouts'. (Is that really a bad thing? They pump out some serious DPS. You need to rethink this remark again.)</P> <P>I wouldn't be so reluctant to give up the perks of my class to you, if I can have all YOUR nifty little perks of being a monk. (But then, what would be the difference between us? I do NOT want to be you. You disgust me with your whinning.)</P> <P>Those are some quick, off the top of my head observations about you. Personally, since I've started following this thread and the CU, after seeing you post...I have started boycotting all monks/bruisers from my group. </P> <P>This is supposed to be a Combat UPGRADE, but I ask you...who's getting UPGRADED here? </P> <P>Not me, I'm a guardian.</P> <P>Skywise</P> <P>Former USMC</P> <P>Semper Fi</P></FONT></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> SkyStealer wrote: <P><FONT size=2>Some personal observation about you here:</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've answered all of those questions before.</P> <P>As for guardians MTing in my guild, I mean come on, we have Noah.<BR></P>

[TunaBoo]

Noah is just a poorly built version of Tunabash <div></div>

[Hak]

<P>Who would give up the mez and mana regen of an enchanter for higher DPS?  Becuase that sounds like what you are saying with all sub-classes being equal.  Hey, if all mages are supposed to be equal I guess the rest of us lose out on thier abilities.  </P> <P>I bet most people, including enchaters wouldn't want that as part of the combat revamp.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by Hakra on <span class=date_text>08-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:41 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Hakra wrote:<BR> <P>Who would give up the mez and mana regen of an enchanter for higher DPS?  Becuase that sounds like what you are saying with all sub-classes being equal.  Hey, if all mages are supposed to be equal I guess the rest of us lose out on thier abilities. </P> <P>I bet most people, including enchaters wouldn't want that as part of the combat revamp.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>That's funny since our Illusionists were parsing right under our Warlocks and way above our scouts last night ;p<BR></DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Noah is just a poorly built version of Tunabash<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Tunabash is a poorly built version of Drakem</P>

[TunaBoo]

Drakem is a cheak hack. <div></div>

[Mig]

He hacks cheeks? With like an axe? Wow, those NPU are hardcore.<p>Message Edited by Migyb on <span class=date_text>08-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:00 PM</span>

[Go-B]

Well IMHO whats going to happen ? at raids Brusiers and monks can throw down and do some decent damage which gives them purpose to be there when its riad time. Now seeing as you only need two tanks at most at any given raid what are we going to do ? throw these other classes that could throw down to the side lines ? warm the bench ? SoE could be making a very big mistake here <img src="/smilies/1cfd6e2a9a2c0cf8e74b49b35e2e46c7.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Gungo]

<DIV>Quote Dparker<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>I can accept that i will never tank as well as Guardians/Paladins will in the combat changes ( defense wise that is ) . But most of you do understand that they are making new encounters that will take advantage of each fighter types strengths right? <BR><BR>Like it or not, that is how SoE sees the game will progress. Guardians will still be the super tank defense wise and prolly hp wise, doesnt mean thou that you will be the best tank in every situation ..... <BR><BR>Maybe yall should think about that before worrying so much about being the "primary tank" <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Its pretty simple.  There will be 1 hardest encounter.  Only one.  That will determine the most efficient class to be primary MT because of the drop rates in this game.  Why spend 6 months gearing up 6 tanks, and then be able to beat the hardest encounter.  Instead, you could gear up 1 tank in 2 months to take the hardest encounter and, while not as efficient, he can also tank the majority of the other encounters.    <BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, while everyone needs to spend time relearning their class, players that have not yet been MTs have a bigger learning curve than those players that have already been MTs.  Learning generally means wipes.  And wipes are no fun, well... most of the time.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ________</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>there are 2 fatal misconceptions here 1 that your guild would only equip 1 tank, since most guilds run DKP thsi is highly unlikely. and 2 while it is posssible 1 fighter could tank all the content it should be harder for that fighter to tank content he is not meant to tank, Its the option the raid leader has to make. All we ask for is the ability to tank content designed for us. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While many may need to relearn that class, new encounters will eventually lead to wipes, people (even MT) tend to leave the game, and new MT always will stand up to fill thier place, that MT learning curve will still be there whether its a guard or monk. I personally dotn want to tank, but i want variety and strategy within the fighter archtype. Diffrent tank types will lead to a more diverse and stretegic raiding experience. Most raidiing guilds know how boring raids can be this change will foster a bit more excitment imho. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I edited this post to fit the urrent context of thsi discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main point is mitigation will always be king to avodiance and guards will still be main tank in most circumstances. I WANT though to be circumstances where all fighter types can excell at being Main tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game needs to be fixed and we are broken. You need to look past your ego and see what is best for the game. No where does it say i am not a tank class in fact it has been stated on the boards in the manual and in the game that i am a fighter and i am suppose to tank just as well as any other fighter. I DONT want to be 9th best dps and 3rd best tank. i want to be 9th best dps AND an equally efficeint tank. All i want is specific encounters designed to allow a bruiser to tank substantially better then warriors or other plate tanks. after they close the gap on brawlers and  warriors tanking (mind you i am not asking to be the best tank in all situations), i would like encounters and raid mobs designed for US. Every class archtype in game needs a chance to shine in thier Primary ROLE. I am not trying to ruin Gaurdians Parade but i do want to join in the fun. </DIV> <DIV>The developers need to make a raid mobs have a NEW special ability that allows brawlers to tank way better then others (all fighters actually, but atm i am defneding my position). Maybe they can remove soem of that Wrath of Fury crap on every single contested and put a skill Like One Hundred hand slap/Crushing fury on raid mobs that will support Avoidance based tanks and give plate tanks damage spikes like an avodiance based tank has currently on live..</DIV> <DIV>(Crushing Fury is a bruiser combat art that does 8 consecutive attacks if any of the initial atks miss (basically if  you avoid) the remaining atks miss, if the last attack connects the caster gains an additional strength increase. Imagine a mob doing eight 1k atks a avoidance tank woudl most likely avoid a few 1 k hits and the strength increase, whereas a mitigation tank would take all 8k damage and have a mob w more strength/damage to deal with.</DIV> <DIV>All i want to know is when did the tank club become so exclusive, everyother position in game allows classes/subclasses to switch out when needed for optimal conditions in their role. Fighters do not.</DIV> <DIV>Now i know thier is limited positions for fighters in raids, and i don't deny that. But thats a seperate issue we all NEED utility for when we do not tank. maybe in the future my utility is my 9th best dps and my fake death (aoe will still kill me). Instead of crying about game fixes and lettign other people do thier intended roles you guys should stop being so defensive put the ego aside and ask for more utility for when u do not tank. That IMHO is what is best for guards sure u cna tank 50% of raids but when u dont mybe you should have somethign to fall back on. this way it allows more then 1 gaurd to be useful on raids and maybe make your class a lil bit less useless if another gaurd is on. </DIV></DIV></DIV>

[dparker7]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV> <DIV> <DIV>I edited this post to fit the urrent context of thsi discussion.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The main point is mitigation will always be king to avodiance and guards will still be main tank in most circumstances. I WANT though to be circumstances where all fighter types can excell at being Main tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The game needs to be fixed and we are broken. You need to look past your ego and see what is best for the game. No where does it say i am not a tank class in fact it has been stated on the boards in the manual and in the game that i am a fighter and i am suppose to tank just as well as any other fighter. I DONT want to be 9th best dps and 3rd best tank. i want to be 9th best dps AND an equally efficeint tank. All i want is specific encounters designed to allow a bruiser to tank substantially better then warriors or other plate tanks. after they close the gap on brawlers and  warriors tanking (mind you i am not asking to be the best tank in all situations), i would like encounters and raid mobs designed for US. Every class archtype in game needs a chance to shine in thier Primary ROLE. I am not trying to ruin Gaurdians Parade but i do want to join in the fun. </DIV> <DIV>The developers need to make a raid mobs have a NEW special ability that allows brawlers to tank way better then others (all fighters actually, but atm i am defneding my position). Maybe they can remove soem of that Wrath of Fury crap on every single contested and put a skill Like One Hundred hand slap/Crushing fury on raid mobs that will support Avoidance based tanks and give plate tanks damage spikes like an avodiance based tank has currently on live..</DIV> <DIV>(Crushing Fury is a bruiser combat art that does 8 consecutive attacks if any of the initial atks miss (basically if  you avoid) the remaining atks miss, if the last attack connects the caster gains an additional strength increase. Imagine a mob doing eight 1k atks a avoidance tank woudl most likely avoid a few 1 k hits and the strength increase, whereas a mitigation tank would take all 8k damage and have a mob w more strength/damage to deal with.</DIV> <DIV>All i want to know is when did the tank club become so exclusive, everyother position in game allows classes/subclasses to switch out when needed for optimal conditions in their role. Fighters do not.</DIV> <DIV>Now i know thier is limited positions for fighters in raids, and i don't deny that. But thats a seperate issue we all NEED utility for when we do not tank. maybe in the future my utility is my 9th best dps and my fake death (aoe will still kill me). Instead of crying about game fixes and lettign other people do thier intended roles you guys should stop being so defensive put the ego aside and ask for more utility for when u do not tank. That IMHO is what is best for guards sure u cna tank 50% of raids but when u dont mybe you should have somethign to fall back on. this way it allows more then 1 gaurd to be useful on raids and maybe make your class a lil bit less useless if another gaurd is on. </DIV></DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You are only supposed to tank equally well in MOST circumstances.  Raids are a very small segment of the encounters in the game.  You do tank equally well in MOST circumstances already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are few instances where you NEED a guard tanking.  Other than the hardest encounters, you can switch out players in any variety of combinations to make the raid successful.  They still generally fulfill the MT role because you only need 1, or at most 2 on a raid, and its one of the most popular classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, you want ot be 9th DPS and equal tanking.  Then why would anyone play a class that is 18th DPS and equal tanking?  Why would you bring any more than 3 tanks on a raid?  Why would you want ot bring anything other than a brawler as one of those tanks?  What are all the other tank classes supposed to contribute on a raid when none of them have any significant DPS after the combat revamp?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shine in a primary role, funny.  So, considering enchanters primary role in this game seems to be clarity, how do they shine in a raid exactly? </DIV>

[Urglu]

<P>Gungo, brawlers do more damage than Guardians, therefore total equality in ability to tank would unbalance a brawler v. a Guardian.  You can't ask for complete equality in one aspect and not in others.  </P> <P>The reality is they can buff you guys and nerf us, but at the end of the day people are generally going to raid using the setup that has the best chance at success.  Will you be capable of tanking all the raid encounters now? Perhaps.  BUT there is extra inherent risk using an avoidance tank.  A couple big spikes and the raid will fail. You could also possibly avoid all the big hits and the raid would be easier than normal, but with a mitigation tank you have fewer big spikes, and while it might never be as easy as it can be with a brawler, you also don't have the higher risk of a failure.</P> <P>Which is your guild going to pick? I have a 50 Guard and a soon to be 50 Bruiser, but I can tell you right now I, and the rest of my guild, will be going with the Guardian tank because it is more predictable and has a higher probability of success.  Will our brawlers tank some raids? Yeah sure, as we move on I am sure they will do the older ones since they are capable, but when you are doing a new raid you will want the best possible chance to succeed, and that will always be the path of the mitigation tank.</P>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <DIV>Dparker713 wrote</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are only supposed to tank equally well in MOST circumstances.  Raids are a very small segment of the encounters in the game.  You do tank equally well in MOST circumstances already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are few instances where you NEED a guard tanking.  Other than the hardest encounters, you can switch out players in any variety of combinations to make the raid successful.  They still generally fulfill the MT role because you only need 1, or at most 2 on a raid, and its one of the most popular classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, you want ot be 9th DPS and equal tanking.  Then why would anyone play a class that is 18th DPS and equal tanking?  Why would you bring any more than 3 tanks on a raid?  Why would you want ot bring anything other than a brawler as one of those tanks?  What are all the other tank classes supposed to contribute on a raid when none of them have any significant DPS after the combat revamp?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shine in a primary role, funny.  So, considering enchanters primary role in this game seems to be clarity, how do they shine in a raid exactly? </DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Subjective reading does little to help the current situation. But let me counter debate you. I agree with your first statement i am suppose to "TANK" equally well in most circumstances currently that is wrong Gaurds "TANK" better in all circumstances. In groups gaurdians take less damage then Bralwers and in group instances like icy digs that is apparent. Sure brawlers can "tank" if needed but at a noticably decreased capacity. No matter how you switch out fighters. Guards are noticeably better "TANKS" in all circumstances. furthermore at the levelcap their is little to no motivation for any type of tanking other then raids. Which leads to a larger discrepency of gaurds tanking at that level. All fighters shoudl be able to "TANK" all types of encounters, but certain fighter types should "shine" (descriptive word you may switch that with excell if it makes you feel better) in thier type of mob/raid/circumstance/etc. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now i said i wanted ot be able to do 9th dps and equal tanking "under my circumstance" (conveniently left out), because currently 9th dps is my only utility. futhermore i said which you totally seemed to neglect all fighters need utility when they do not tank. Why would anyone play a guardr w equal dps and 18th(17 or 18 depending on how paladins turn out) dps ranking? well That is the utility you need. That utility will allow more then 1 guard to be of use on raids. What is that utility i don't know maybe its ur defens buffs to group, maybe its your Hp buffs to group, maybe its your intervene lien of spells that allows other fighters to excell under thier cricumstance. I really don't care its not my class to figure out Guards secondary effect and ROLE. So once again all fighters shoudl be able to "Shine" under their circumstances. I gave one example above how that can be doen in my prior post. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now finally your comment on enchanters. The funny part is developers have said that the primary role of casters is DPS (and to some regard crowd control), clairty would seem to be thier secondary effect that allows multiple enchaters to stack in raids. Further changes in beta only prove to foster that idea. By allowing clarity to be a group buff, they have now made it feasible for multiple enchaters to stakc in raids. Illusionist and coercers (disclaimer coecers still under construction)  are out dpsing monks/ bruisers in raids on beta. So while enchanters are now able to "shine" by being able to Drain mobs (still beig fixed), mezz/stifle//stun (stifle was removed from monks), and do mental dps on mobs that are elemantal or noxious resistant, bralwers have no primary role to "shine" within their primary role. My Primary ROLE is fighter, Fighters tank. I want my class to be able to Tank equally to other fighters. so once again for the reading impaired....... <DIV>All i want to know is when did the tank club become so exclusive, everyother position in game allows classes/subclasses to switch out when needed for optimal conditions in their role. Fighters do not.</DIV></DIV></DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV> <P>Gungo, brawlers do more damage than Guardians, therefore total equality in ability to tank would unbalance a brawler v. a Guardian.  You can't ask for complete equality in one aspect and not in others.  </P> <P>The reality is they can buff you guys and nerf us, but at the end of the day people are generally going to raid using the setup that has the best chance at success.  Will you be capable of tanking all the raid encounters now? Perhaps.  BUT there is extra inherent risk using an avoidance tank.  A couple big spikes and the raid will fail. You could also possibly avoid all the big hits and the raid would be easier than normal, but with a mitigation tank you have fewer big spikes, and while it might never be as easy as it can be with a brawler, you also don't have the higher risk of a failure.</P> <P>Which is your guild going to pick? I have a 50 Guard and a soon to be 50 Bruiser, but I can tell you right now I, and the rest of my guild, will be going with the Guardian tank because it is more predictable and has a higher probability of success.  Will our brawlers tank some raids? Yeah sure, as we move on I am sure they will do the older ones since they are capable, but when you are doing a new raid you will want the best possible chance to succeed, and that will always be the path of the mitigation tank.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________</P> <P>True in the fighter tree we do the most dps as was intended and it should be. I see nothing wrong with balance if in my primary role all classes are balanced to tank equal. Equal does not nessecarily mean i tank every mob as well as a gaurdian nor does it mean guardians tank every mob as well as me. The balance is in the fact while raid mob X does mroe damage to a brawler raid mob Y does more damage to the Gaurdian. Now furthermore jsut because i have a slight dps increase over gaurds that shouldn't mean i can not perform my primary role. Where i gain in dps crusaders should gain in heals/wards/powertap/lifetap. If crusaders and bralwers tanked equal there would be no argument on balance since their abilites balance out. Guardians need more utility i agree, IMHO guardians should have group defensive buffs that are needed on raids, HP buffs that stack on raids, and other person type defensive buff that helps the intended tank do their job better. Crusaders get a mititgation one, bralwers get a crappy avodiance one,  Guards should get a defensive or block one. Also i believe warriors shoudl do slight dps greater then crsauders. Just because gaurdians don't have that utility doesnt mean i shoudln't be able to perfrom my intended role.</P> <P>finally your last paragraph i agree with currently as an officer i will pick the gaurd to do most if not all our raids. Do i agree with the current implementaion no. I want specific raids where a brawler is a far better tank, i want specific raids warriors are, and same for crusaders. i put an example above on how a brawler would be prefered over a plate tank. and i had one for crusaders but i will leave that for another debate.</P></DIV>

[Gungo]

<DIV>One last thing,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone in a raid guild knows people who log on just to raid then log off shortly thereafter. If these people are fighters who are not allowed to tank .. their primary role. what motivation is there to continue playing. Utimately this leads to two things happening they create an alt that has more of a use during raids so they can feel useful and not just a random spot filler or they quit the game becuase they feel useless and don't want to grind a warlock for "real" dps or gaurd for "real" tanking. What do you think is the best interest for SOE? IMHO allow all classes to perform thier intended role. what i would liek to see is crsauders raid tanking casters (25%), brawlers raid tankign swarm mobs and monk/scout types (25%), warrriors tanking Dragon type heavy hitters (50%). The game needs situational tanking, dps, and healing. I for one know several people who created warlock alts jsut because they are so great on raids because they "shine" on alot of raids.</DIV>

[Urglu]

<DIV>"I want specific raids where a brawler is a far better tank, i want specific raids warriors are, and same for crusaders. i put an example above on how a brawler would be prefered over a plate tank. and i had one for crusaders but i will leave that for another debate." -Gungo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds to me like you probably want a different game then, this is EverQuest 2 not Sony's Socialist Raiding Game (Where Everyone Gets a Turn).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Urglunt wrote:<BR> <DIV>"I want specific raids where a brawler is a far better tank, i want specific raids warriors are, and same for crusaders. i put an example above on how a brawler would be prefered over a plate tank. and i had one for crusaders but i will leave that for another debate." -Gungo</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sounds to me like you probably want a different game then, this is EverQuest 2 not Sony's Socialist Raiding Game (Where Everyone Gets a Turn).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>EQ has always been one dimensional in terms of who tanks raids... That's the harsh reality of the game, if they wanted all tanks to be equal they would of only made one class.  I played a SK for 5 years in EQ1 and I never MT'ed a raid.  Each tank can tecnically "tank" a raid, however there are certain classes that do it better than others, at the expense of other abilities for example dps, monks have higher dps so they shouldn't be able to tank as well as guards and guards shouldn't have the dps monks do, but they should still be able to tank, and yes they can.  Just like some dps classes will be better than others.  Guardians suck at dps, the only reason it parses high is because of damage shields casted on us by other classes.  IMO, the person casting the damage shield should get credit for the dps, maybe that will make things a little more accurate.</P> <DIV>They give dirges a song that increases hate towards them in an encounter does that mean dirges are tanks, no.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Shizzirri on <span class=date_text>09-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:35 PM</span>

[Gungo]

<DIV>i was going to post some whitty statement on your use of socialist propaganda instead i opted not to be sarcastic and agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes that is what i want and as far as i cna tell that is the devs intention to allow all classes to perform thier primary role. whether they succeed in that endevor i doubt it.</DIV>

[Gungo]

<P>This statement is in regards to the previous replys to my posts and must be taken in context of those replys.</P> <P>But in a game where everything is balanced according to the archtype (i didn't make that up blame moorgard for that statement). why can't all tanks be able to tank equally (equal does not neccessarily mena same i can tank one mob type better then another mob type), and then let thier secondary abilities even them selves out. Ones primary role should not be sacrificed for the core of thier abilities. In doing so they have basically alienated that class. Maybe the archtype system is flawed, but that is the route they choose. And sinc ethey have chosen to balance all classes at the archtype level they need to allow each class to perform thier Primary ROLE. No matter the tradition of EQ1 or the one dimensionality of MMORPGs in regard to tanking. Under the current system of archtype balance (and progression of game balance and tactics/strategies) they have to balance the core role of each class. If they dont then every other class then the "preferred" class is basically obsolete.</P>

[Urglu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>i was going to post some whitty statement on your use of socialist propaganda instead i opted not to be sarcastic and agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes that is what i want and as far as i cna tell that is the devs intention to allow all classes to perform thier primary role. whether they succeed in that endevor i doubt it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There's a big difference between "performing your primary role," and "performing your primary role as efficiently as others who share that primary role."</P> <P>All I have seen is talk of making other tank classes truly capable of tanking raid mobs (meaning not needing 12 healers or other absurd setups).  This, I think you would agree, satisfies the statement that "all tanks can perform their primary role."  However, while I haven't read every single Dev post, I don't recall them ever saying they wanted all tanks to tank with equal efficiency.  Which leads to the conclusion that there was never, nor is there currently, any desire to make non-Guardian tanks the <STRONG>optimal</STRONG> choice as raid MT for an equal number of raid encounters.</P>

[Gungo]

<P>I feel the need to clarify "obsolete" as someone would undoubtably have something to argue about that.</P> <P>DPS is suppose to be balanced by arch type hence casters and scouts > fighters > Preist</P> <P>Now in the confines of my archtype i sacrifice my primary role of tanking for more dps  i am at a disadvantage to other fighters in regards to my primary role of tanking at the same time being far less superior to archtypes whose primary role is DPS (scout/casters). Hence i am obsolete.</P> <P>Primary roles should be static and equal whether that means situational and equal or the same and equal, they are both balanced. From that point on the core of thier abilities will furhter be balanced, but in no regard should any class sacrifice thier primary role to be better an anything and that includes dps. Don't construe this to mean i want all classes the same. I never said that, in fact i said i want situational tanking. Look at my prior thread on the Crushing furry/ hundred hand slap ability. Balanced in tanking can be differentied thru the abilites of  the raid mobs.</P> <P> </P>

[Gungo]

<DIV>urlunt wrote<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gungo wrote:<BR> <DIV>i was going to post some whitty statement on your use of socialist propaganda instead i opted not to be sarcastic and agree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>yes that is what i want and as far as i cna tell that is the devs intention to allow all classes to perform thier primary role. whether they succeed in that endevor i doubt it.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>There's a big difference between "performing your primary role," and "performing your primary role as efficiently as others who share that primary role."</P> <P>All I have seen is talk of making other tank classes truly capable of tanking raid mobs (meaning not needing 12 healers or other absurd setups).  This, I think you would agree, satisfies the statement that "all tanks can perform their primary role."  However, while I haven't read every single Dev post, I don't recall them ever saying they wanted all tanks to tank with equal efficiency.  Which leads to the conclusion that there was never, nor is there currently, any desire to make non-Guardian tanks the <STRONG>optimal</STRONG> choice as raid MT for an equal number of raid encounters.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _________</P> <P>True and it does seem that is the route they choose other then the situational tanking i proposed. So if that is the case then gaurdians have no reason to complain about non-guardians being made able to tank and perform thier primary role. (which contless threads on this board from gaurds about upgrades to brawler tanking have been) Utimately no guild will choose a non-gaurd anyway because of the uncertainty of avoidance. Even still would be cool to see a situational raid liek i had proposed that a brawler to excell at just to add a lil bit of change to raids. The funny thing is I don't even want to Main Tank, i have played eq2 since release and rarely posted, but when a Bunch of gaurds start complaining in beta about how my class is gettign "fixed" it lit my fire.</P></DIV>

[Airog]

Haha, you all made Gungo mad. Haha, look how many posts he has, 33. Probably 29 on this discussion.

[Airog]

I would like to add something else. These "Mooreguard said it should be this way, so I will not except anything differant" arguments need to stop. Moorguard has plainly stated that *WHATEVER* he posts can change merely by SOE wanting it to, hence no past posts by Moorguard should be quoted to try and "prove" or "disprove" your argument or reasoning. Becuase that is the past, SOE may have changed their minds, and if you say "well, I bought this product because you said this" too bad for you. They have changed their mind plenty of times, after all, I re-call somebody saying Alchemists would be the provider of interms to other classes, that is in no way true today. So, if Moorguard came out and said we want Monks to tank equally to Guardians, then you would need to wait for it ACTUALLY to happen before jumping all over and saying, you said this, you said that, because plainly, it does not matter what they say to the community, what it all comes down to, is what goes into live. You can whine, you can complain. It just makes you look bad. So yes, EVERYTHING, everybody is posting here is WHAT THEY WANT. Nothing more, nothing less.

[Gaige]

<P>I'm sure if Moorgard came out tomorrow and said that SKs are the primary and uber raid tank that no guardian would ever post an old MG quote, now would they?</P> <P>They wouldn't bring up the tanking scale or anything else.</P> <P>Nah!~</P>

[Airog]

Yeah they probably would, but I can't control what they do. You can't control what they do, but you all can control what you yourselves do.

[stoutbrewdrink]

<P>i think you all are looking and argueing about this business the wrong way.</P> <P>Honestly there  wasnt any huge amount of whining from any brawlers before the combat revamps were mentioned or made. All of this anger and fighting comes from the fact that SOE is nearly reversing the roles of the brawlers, and greatly changing the way plate tanks work. Paladins and SKs definately needed a boost, and are getting it. Brawlers are just getting turned around into somethign they once were not. Guardians are caught in the middle of all of this being that they were perfect (besides us being able to buff to much hp). So now guardians are on the recieving end of the business. </P> <P> </P> <P>In short, all fighters are getting huge changes, role changing revamps, and people arent happy about what they are seeing. </P> <P> </P> <P>We should be mad about the role changes and nearly reversal of roles that we are seeing or the imbalance. If guardians are indeed changed to nothing more than buff botting off tanks you will see some of the very best players leave this game instantly. 85% of all raiding guilds have a guild leader as a guardian for MT. Spent LARGE amounts of playing time working their character up to be strong enough to beat raid mobs etc etc. If you think someone who is used to being the MT is just going to accept the fact that they are on par or below other tanks, you are greatly mistaken. If they want to make different fighter classes tank in different aspects its going to mess up the whole system. Just because someone is under the fight category (in my opinion) doesnt mean they ahve to tank, that is an absurd asumption that fighters = tanks. </P> <P>Anyways, Guardians will be [Removed for Content] off and probably leave if they are no better at tanking than any other pajama wearing, self healing, feign death doing, life tapping, or any other gangster with a card in their sleeve.</P> <P> </P> <P>Guardians are here to tank, its in our name for gods sake, if you take that away from us we have nothing and will in turn leave this rollercoaster of a game.</P> <P>Myself, im on my last strand of hope for EQ2, i just hope that the changes work out. O i wish that eq2=eq1 with better graphics. SOE keep things simple.</P> <P> </P> <P>Imagine a raiding guild having to find competent fighters of each class to maintank on raids, gearing, learning, and fighting over a bunch of BS. Keep it simple soe, keep it simple</P>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<P>double post</P><p>Message Edited by stoutbrewdrinker on <span class=date_text>09-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[Airog]

To an extent I agree with you, but at the same time, some people came to EQ2 because it is supposed to be differant then EQ1, and they figured not only in the encountres and number of people needed for raids, but the strats and such.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <P>Just because someone is under the fight category (in my opinion) doesnt mean they ahve to tank, that is an absurd asumption that fighters = tanks.<FONT color=#ffff00>  Well, SOE says it does.</FONT></P> <P>Anyways, Guardians will be [Removed for Content] off and probably leave if they are no better at tanking than any other pajama wearing, self healing, feign death doing, life tapping, or any other gangster with a card in their sleeve.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Goodbye.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have no sympathy for someone who played an overpowered, broken class for months crying that'll they will quit if the game is fixed and the class balanced.<BR>

[Airog]

And you expect them to sympathize that you want to tank??

[stoutbrewdrink]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <P>Just because someone is under the fight category (in my opinion) doesnt mean they ahve to tank, that is an absurd asumption that fighters = tanks.<FONT color=#ffff00>  Well, SOE says it does.</FONT></P> <P>Anyways, Guardians will be [Removed for Content] off and probably leave if they are no better at tanking than any other pajama wearing, self healing, feign death doing, life tapping, or any other gangster with a card in their sleeve.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Goodbye.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I have no sympathy for someone who played an overpowered, broken class for months crying that'll they will quit if the game is fixed and the class balanced.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>im not crying, im telling you that is whats going to happen to hundreds of high quality players out there. Oh and hey pajama lover, i stated that we were overpowered in the hp buffing area, and infact probably in a few other areas. </P> <P>You saying ill quit if the game is fixed and class balanced. The way they look now THEY ARENT. if the classes were fixed and BALANCED then i wouldnt quit. Take your pajama loving taking out of context self somewhere else.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR>And you expect them to sympathize that you want to tank?? <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Fortunately for me, they don't have to.</P> <P>I've always said I would trade DPS for tanking ability, among other things.</P> <P>Guardians were broken, they were trivializing content, and they were 100x better tanks, especially in raids, than everyone else.  They were horribly broken.  They were using avoidance to tank, instead of mitigation, they were trivializing encounters by how the +defense skill worked.</P> <P>A lot of the things we are seeing are FIXING a BROKEN game.</P> <P>I want to be made a better tank because I knew we were doing too much damage and it was going to be lowered.  In this game you trade DPS for defense.  Since I knew our DPS was getting nerfed eventually I started asking for the only thing that makes sense to get in return:  tanking ability.</P> <P>I didn't make the system where all fighters are tanks dude, SOE did.  I just play in it.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote: <P>im not crying, im telling you that is whats going to happen to hundreds of high quality players out there. Oh and hey pajama lover, i stated that we were overpowered in the hp buffing area, and infact probably in a few other areas.</P> <P>You saying ill quit if the game is fixed and class balanced. The way they look now THEY ARENT. if the classes were fixed and BALANCED then i wouldnt quit. Take your pajama loving taking out of context self somewhere else.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nice insults, I enjoyed them.  What are we in elementary school.  "Pajama lover".  Please tell me I'm not responding to someone who is in my 9 y/o little brothers math class.</P> <P>But anyway...</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <P>We should be mad about the role changes and nearly reversal of roles that we are seeing or the imbalance.  <FONT color=#ffff00>What "role reversal"?  Guardians are still tanks on beta, they can still raid tank.  Have you even played beta?  If there is an imbalance its that guardians are still too good.</FONT>  <P><FONT size=4>If guardians are indeed changed to nothing more than buff botting off tanks you will see some of the very best players leave this game instantly.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>Funny, I know lots of good players who picked the "wrong" fighter class and have been doing this since release.  It was okay when they were buffing you though, right?</FONT> <P>85% of all raiding guilds have a guild leader as a guardian for MT. Spent LARGE amounts of playing time working their character up to be strong enough to beat raid mobs etc etc. <FONT color=#ffff00>100% of all statistics are made up.  As for spending large amounts of playing time working on their character - so did I.  So no sympathy from me.</FONT> <P>If you think someone who is used to being the MT is just going to accept the fact that they are on par or below other tanks, you are greatly mistaken. <FONT color=#ffff00>Wow, so being on par isn't even acceptable.  You have to be better and make 5 other classes worthless.  Nice.  So I assume all the fighters who have been below par since release, who picked their class to be MT should've quit by now.  Oh wait we aren't whiners and quitters like you.  Good riddance.</FONT> <P>If they want to make different fighter classes tank in different aspects its going to mess up the whole system.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Or its going to fix it inline with the vision from release.  As that was always the intention.</FONT> <P>Just because someone is under the fight category (in my opinion) doesnt mean they ahve to tank, that is an absurd asumption that fighters = tanks. <FONT color=#ffff00>Yes it does.  SOE says so.  Last I checked this is their game.  Besides I think an absurd assumption is that your class should be the best for MT'ing period and the other 5 fighters should stand around or buff you to make you better.  As is currently the case.</FONT> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You are crying.  You know you are.  So get over it.  If 10,000 people quit because they were overpowered and SOE is fixing the game for the good of everyone and its health in the long run, so be it.  I'm sure we'll be fine.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gaige on <span class=date_text>09-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:31 PM</span>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV>maybe your not getting it gaige.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i agree the game will be better IF things are actually balanced and correct. The way things are now, its not going to fly, its NOT going to be balanced with the direction they are taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not about being overpowered now, its about being at a disadvantage post changes.</DIV>

[TanRaistlyn]

<P>Wow Gaige, I Just spent some serious time reading this thread.  I hardly ever post to these things, because they very rarely get anything accomplished other then more frustration.  BUT...It seems to me that you are looking to bore this game down till its virtually no more fun.  You want all Fighters to be able to tank equally well...by your argument why not just make 1 fighter class indeed and get rid of the six seperates, BECAUSE you say thats what SOE wants.  </P> <P>Well I doubt you know what SOE wants, and I see arguments that because you as a monk can equal or pass a scout in DPS that that makes them useless.  I couldnt disagree more.  The different classes just add flavor, theres no reason that monks/scouts cant do the same damage, it makes no one obsolete, considering so much of a character is based on skill of the controller.  Now perhaps you are a good player, as you have stated many times, and I commend you for it.  In fact you even said that you have tanked Zalak on occasion, not a horribly easy mob to tank so congratz there.  But...I must ask if you were able to tank that mob, why all the complaints?  </P> <P>I currently lead a "raiding guid" and I see no reason why other fighter classes cant tank most epic encounters, we even have had our monk tank couple of instances.  If the person is equipped well and a good player any of the 6 subclasses can tank almost anything in the game.  Guardians have more defense and so they are generally a good static choice for raids, because they can take the hits. But once a guild becomes equipped and knowledgable other tank classes can still tank these epics.</P> <P>As the game stands most people who started a Guardian wanted to be one of the, if not the best MT's in their respectful guilds.  This holds blindly true, and even tho you might disagree most Monks/Bruisers made those characters because they sounded fun, and fit their own personalities, not because they wanted to tank.  As the game stands now, any class can and has tanked anything they put their minds too, so why risk ruining game mechanics by forcing these "combat revamps" on us.</P> <P>I think gaige you should be more concerned about this then you are, because I guarentee you that A LOT of the current top raiding guilds have a Guard as their MT and most likely Officer if not a Leader of said guild.  If they do [Removed for Content] down guards to the point where they are not desired on a raid, or that they no longer are wanted as the Static MT on raids, you will see a lot of guards leave, and prob a lot of guilds will break, which will trickle down to many people leaving the game totally.  And less people = a lot less fun, eventually leaving to server combines, economy issues, and finally the game will cost SOE more money to keep running then it brings in.  </P> <P>The different classes have purpose in that they are just that, different.  Why take away the fun and uniqueness of each of our roles by turning the game bland and blending them all together.  I think you are trying to point out that Monks/Crusaders/Fighters should all be able to tank equally, but differently....I just dont see this as possible, and even if they manage it, if we all did the same thing but different ways...it would still feel bland to me.  </P> <P>My last point or opinion if you will is that I like that there are certain 'overpowering" points to each class, including crazy DPS monks, and UBER tanking guards, makes it feel more REAL for me, cuz thats how real life is, it aint always fair!!!</P> <P>Covenant 50 Guard Faydark Server Clan of Shadows</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>maybe your not getting it gaige.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i agree the game will be better IF things are actually balanced and correct. The way things are now, its not going to fly, its NOT going to be balanced with the direction they are taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not about being overpowered now, its about being at a disadvantage post changes. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Have you even played it yet?  I have.  In fact I just finished duo'ing Golems in PF with Noah, him tanking, me tanking, etc etc.  Getting parses, seeing damage, seeing damage taken.</P> <P>As for "being at a disadvantage" post changes.  BOO HOO!  Where were you since November when every fighter was at a disadvantage to guardians so big it was insurmountable?</P> <P>I have no pity for people who were Gods and too good to even consider some changes for other classes suddenly crying when their wings get taken away.</P> <P>Besides, your complaints aren't founded.  Guardians are still great tanks so far on beta with the changes, including raids.</P>

[Airog]

<DIV>"Guardians were broken, they were trivializing content, and they were 100x better tanks, especially in raids, than everyone else.  They were horribly broken.  They were using avoidance to tank, instead of mitigation, they were trivializing encounters by how the +defense skill worked."</DIV> <DIV>       Gaige, you seem pretty level headed, but comeon, parts of that statement are completely idiotic. With the same buffs, Monks avoid more then Guards, hence, if tanking was more avoidence based then Mitigation, we would not be tanks, as much avoidance as there is in tanking epics (on some of the harder encounters it isn't much), monks have more, they can avoid more, Guardians can Mitigate more. So based on the fact that one class has more Mit and less avoid then the other, the choice for raids so far in the game has been made. They have gone with the Mitigation tank.</DIV> <DIV>        100x better eh? Again, completely idiotic, heck, untill I hit 50 we were doing decent with an SK tank, and as it is now, he certainly could tank quite a few of the encounters we do. None better, none as good, but he CAN tank them. I don't know how a mfully fabled monk would fare on say, Zalak or Drayek, but chances are they would trvilize the encounter. So, don't throw around that bull sh**. Encounters are trivilized by the simply fact that if the make raids that get harder and harder so that you can do them once you gear up, the more gear you get the more raids you trivilize, period, to think elsewise is idiocy (unless SOE ran a program to look at gear and build the encounter accordingly every time you zoned in).</DIV> <DIV>       Last but not least, if there is a post where Moorguard or another Dev expressly says we are broken, please link it, else wise, stop saying we are broken, because that is not for you to decide, but rather SOE, and you can't say, well, the revamp is proof, because that doesn't mean we were broken. Just means they want to change the game (again)...</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <P>You want all Fighters to be able to tank equally well...by your argument why not just make 1 fighter class indeed and get rid of the six seperates, BECAUSE you say thats what SOE wants.  <FONT color=#ffff00>By yours we should just have guardians, since fighters = tanks (per SOE) and fighter DPS isn't even considerable anymore over scouts/mages who can double if not triple our DPS on raids.  So if guardians are the best tank always, they should be the only fighter class.</FONT></P> <P>The different classes just add flavor, theres no reason that monks/scouts cant do the same damage, it makes no one obsolete, considering so much of a character is based on skill of the controller.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Skill?  Oh please DPS skill is spamming specials w/o drawing aggro.  There is no skill involved.  The reason monks/scouts can't do the same damage is because SOE says so, and its their game.  In this game you trade DPS for defense, and since we have more defense than scouts we do less damage by default.</FONT></P> <P>Guardians have more defense and so they are generally a good static choice for raids, because they can take the hits. But once a guild becomes equipped and knowledgable other tank classes can still tank these epics.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Guardians are the "only" choice on the majority of raid mobs, including all contested.  That is broken.  Not only are they the only choice, other fighter classes can't even DO it.</FONT></P> <P>As the game stands most people who started a Guardian wanted to be one of the, if not the best MT's in their respectful guilds. <FONT color=#ffff00>I made my monk as a tank too.  What makes your choice right and mine wrong under SOEs system?  Nothing.  So there is no reason you should be the tank just because in your mind you picked the "right" class for the job.</FONT></P> <P>I think gaige you should be more concerned about this then you are, because I guarentee you that A LOT of the current top raiding guilds have a Guard as their MT and most likely Officer if not a Leader of said guild.  If they do [Removed for Content] down guards to the point where they are not desired on a raid, or that they no longer are wanted as the Static MT on raids, you will see a lot of guards leave, and prob a lot of guilds will break, which will trickle down to many people leaving the game totally.  And less people = a lot less fun, eventually leaving to server combines, economy issues, and finally the game will cost SOE more money to keep running then it brings in.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I don't take stock in doomsayers.  EQ2 will be here until SOE decides it doesn't need to be.  You can doomsay, see the apocalypse and everything else that you feel is necessary.  It happens in every MMO and it has been happening here since release.  But here we are, both of us playing to pay this game.</FONT></P> <P>The different classes have purpose in that they are just that, different.  Why take away the fun and uniqueness of each of our roles by turning the game bland and blending them all together.  I think you are trying to point out that Monks/Crusaders/Fighters should all be able to tank equally, but differently....I just dont see this as possible, and even if they manage it, if we all did the same thing but different ways...it would still feel bland to me.  <FONT color=#ffff00>It would feel bland to me to be forced to roll a guardian if I truly wanted to be a MT in this game.  That isn't a choice, its forced.  If that is the case, then as I've stated numerous times, delete the other fighters, since fighter = tank, and if we can't, why have us in the game.  For looks?</FONT></P> <P>My last point or opinion if you will is that I like that there are certain 'overpowering" points to each class, including crazy DPS monks, and UBER tanking guards, makes it feel more REAL for me, cuz thats how real life is, it aint always fair!!! <FONT color=#ffff00>Easy to say when your class is the one on top.  But as comments from guardians already show, if this game changed to where they weren't the best raid tank, and were regulated to buffing other tanks as a majority of fighter classes do now, well... that wouldn't go over so well, would it?</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>maybe your not getting it gaige.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i agree the game will be better IF things are actually balanced and correct. The way things are now, its not going to fly, its NOT going to be balanced with the direction they are taking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not about being overpowered now, its about being at a disadvantage post changes. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Have you even played it yet?  I have.  In fact I just finished duo'ing Golems in PF with Noah, him tanking, me tanking, etc etc.  Getting parses, seeing damage, seeing damage taken.</P> <P>As for "being at a disadvantage" post changes.  BOO HOO!  Where were you since November when every fighter was at a disadvantage to guardians so big it was insurmountable?</P> <P>I have no pity for people who were Gods and too good to even consider some changes for other classes suddenly crying when their wings get taken away.</P> <P>Besides, your complaints aren't founded.  Guardians are still great tanks so far on beta with the changes, including raids.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>yes i have been playing it. Yes guardians are great tanks, BUT other tanks have much much more to offer than we do, hell our taunts are below par of other tanks atm too. Paladins self heal, SKs have alot more utility, brawlers have more dps and utility than us. What do we have gaige? a 2% advantage in mitigation and some dmg sharing abilities coupled along with our craptastic dps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as your BOO HOO! comment, you are definately contradictive there. You are crying because you were at a disadvantage, hell you were crying in your post for others that were at a disadvantage, and then you mock it all by saying why should we care if we are at a disadvantage. Just because we had an advantage before doesnt mean we have to withstand being craptastic in the future. It doesnt work out like that gaige...</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR> <DIV>"Guardians were broken, they were trivializing content, and they were 100x better tanks, especially in raids, than everyone else.  They were horribly broken.  They were using avoidance to tank, instead of mitigation, they were trivializing encounters by how the +defense skill worked."</DIV> <DIV>       Gaige, you seem pretty level headed, but comeon, parts of that statement are completely idiotic. With the same buffs, Monks avoid more then Guards  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  Guardians can avoid more than monks on live, since +defense and shields affect avoidance.  Both classes can get 100% avoid on the persona screen but guardians can get more total defense, which equates to more avoidance.  Thanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if tanking was more avoidence based then Mitigation, we would not be tanks, as much avoidance as there is in tanking epics (on some of the harder encounters it isn't much), monks have more, they can avoid more, Guardians can Mitigate more. So based on the fact that one class has more Mit and less avoid then the other, the choice for raids so far in the game has been made. They have gone with the Mitigation tank.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong again.  In the current game mitigation is a secondary defensive trait.  It is used by all classes when avoidance fails.  So therefore a guardian is primarily tanking via avoidance (even against contested, where they hardly avoid) and then using their SUPERIOR mitigation to lessen the spike damage they receive.  In essence a guardian on live is like a super monk.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        100x better eh? Again, completely idiotic, heck, untill I hit 50 we were doing decent with an SK tank, and as it is now, he certainly could tank quite a few of the encounters we do. None better, none as good, but he CAN tank them. I don't know how a mfully fabled monk would fare on say, Zalak or Drayek, but chances are they would trvilize the encounter.  <FONT color=#ffff00>No matter how much fabled I'd get, how many master Is I'd have, and how many potions I use, I can not tank as well as Noah.  He gets hit less, for less, uses less mana to heal, and holds aggro better.  This is against any mobs, especially raid mobs.  On top of that Noah can tank mobs that I can't even stand in front of, such as Darathar and Nagalik, or Vox.  Therefore the guardian class is without a doubt better than every fighter class in this game.  Can I tank a group in Nek 2.0?  Sure.  But Noah can do it better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, don't throw around that bull sh**. Encounters are trivilized by the simply fact that if the make raids that get harder and harder so that you can do them once you gear up, the more gear you get the more raids you trivilize, period, to think elsewise is idiocy (unless SOE ran a program to look at gear and build the encounter accordingly every time you zoned in).  <FONT color=#ffff00>Well, you probably are an authority on idiocy, however:  Only guardians can buff their defense so much that they can "grey" out raid encounters, making themselves unhittable.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       Last but not least, if there is a post where Moorguard or another Dev expressly says we are broken, please link it, else wise, stop saying we are broken, because that is not for you to decide, but rather SOE, and you can't say, well, the revamp is proof, because that doesn't mean we were broken. Just means they want to change the game (again)...  <FONT color=#ffff00>Believe what you want, opinions vary.</FONT> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Airog]

<P>Dam, Gaige gots some typeing skills.</P> <P>"<FONT color=#ffff00>Guardians are the "only" choice on the majority of raid mobs, including all contested.  That is broken.  Not only are they the only choice, other fighter classes can't even DO it."</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#330000><FONT color=#ffffff>GDI Gaige, stop saying stupid sh**. I gaurentee that most (not sure about all, but most) fighter classes can successfully tank MORE THEN HALF RAID INSTANCED AND MORE THEN HALF OF THE CONTESTED. (Pending on the fighters gear of course).</FONT></FONT></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>What do we have gaige? a 2% advantage in mitigation and some dmg sharing abilities coupled along with our craptastic dps. <FONT color=#ffff00>Try twice as much mitigation unbuffed.  With a significant lead buffed.  More HPs buffed.  Great group buffs and the best protection spells in the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are crying because you were at a disadvantage, hell you were crying in your post for others that were at a disadvantage, and then you mock it all by saying why should we care if we are at a disadvantage. Just because we had an advantage before doesnt mean we have to withstand being craptastic in the future. It doesnt work out like that gaige...  <FONT color=#ffff00>Welcome to my world.  Yes I was mocking you and I'm glad you caught it.  I've been saying since release how things are unbalanced with the fighter classes and that guardians were broken and too good.  You know what I got?  Who cares, your class is dps.  So now should I say "who cares, your class is a buff bot".  Why should I feel sympathic for a class who the majority of people playing have been straight up [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] faces to me.  I shouldn't.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>As for not being able to "withstand" being craptastic after having an incredible advantage.  Deal with it.  Other classes have been for months.  Besides, you AREN'T crappy anyway.  /sigh</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[TanRaistlyn]

<DIV>Im not saying Guardians should be the only tank, to me it sounds like you want that.  You are advocating all other "fighter" classes be Guardians to my ears.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really beleive That a toon isnt based on the controllers skill...Man your poor guild.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Like I said we use other classes to tank and can do it effectively so you saying that it is impossible just isnt true.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your choice of class is not "wrong" its just the way the cookie fell.  I have a Dark Elf Guardian, now I can argue that I got screwed BECAUSE SOE told me that all "races" and classes would be able to tank as well.  This hasnt held true, Barbs and Ogres Tank better then I because of their crushing bonuses, I on the other hand havent flooded the boards with comments like NERF OGRE< BARB GUARDS THEY TOO POWERFUL.  Na I just got my guild and my friends to step it up a notch and I tank anything that SoE can throw at us, including contested, and Darathor.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you contradict yourself, You say it would be bland for you to be forced to roll a Guard to MT....but if you wanted to "nuke" wouldnt you be FORCED to roll a wizard class....or if your wanted to Heal you'd be forced to roll a preist...Its a RPG...if you want to do something create a character that does it....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its wouldnt go over well if they are changed to Buffing, because like I said the majority of Guards created Guards to Tank, MOST Monks created monks to do damage, if you didnt thats probably the minority.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Covenant</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#330000><FONT color=#ffffff>GDI Gaige, stop saying stupid sh**. I gaurentee that most (not sure about all, but most) fighter classes can successfully tank MORE THEN HALF RAID INSTANCED AND MORE THEN HALF OF THE CONTESTED. (Pending on the fighters gear of course).</FONT></FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>HAHAHAHA.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Instances I think all fighters can tank with decent gear:  Angler, MoM (maybe), CL, Ant (maybe), Drayek.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Contested I think all fighters can tank with decent gear:  x2's maybe, and Borxxx.  x4 contested?  HAHAHAHAHA yeah right.<BR></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TanRaistlyn wrote:<BR> <DIV>Im not saying Guardians should be the only tank, to me it sounds like you want that.  You are advocating all other "fighter" classes be Guardians to my ears.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Your ears deceive you.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you really beleive That a toon isnt based on the controllers skill...Man your poor guild. <FONT color=#ffff00>I didn't say that.  I said dps wasn't.  I could take my monk with all adept 3s and 9 masters and teach my 9 y/o little brother where to stand and which hotkeys to press.  After a few minutes he could do the DPS I do.  Its not hard.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Like I said we use other classes to tank and can do it effectively so you saying that it is impossible just isnt true.  <FONT color=#ffff00>To tank what?  Groups?  Sure.  X2?  Probably.  Drayek and Zalak?  Okay.  Contested x4 lvl 57 mobs with WoF?  Doubtful.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Your choice of class is not "wrong" its just the way the cookie fell.  I have a Dark Elf Guardian, now I can argue that I got screwed BECAUSE SOE told me that all "races" and classes would be able to tank as well.  This hasnt held true, Barbs and Ogres Tank better then I because of their crushing bonuses, I on the other hand havent flooded the boards with comments like NERF OGRE< BARB GUARDS THEY TOO POWERFUL.  Na I just got my guild and my friends to step it up a notch and I tank anything that SoE can throw at us, including contested, and Darathor.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Race and Class are different choices, although I agree the defensive racial traits are a bit overpowered, but not on beta since +defense was changed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And you contradict yourself, You say it would be bland for you to be forced to roll a Guard to MT....but if you wanted to "nuke" wouldnt you be FORCED to roll a wizard class....or if your wanted to Heal you'd be forced to roll a preist...Its a RPG...if you want to do something create a character that does it....  <FONT color=#ffff00>Oooooh.  Caught you.  To heal I'd roll a priest?  Correct.  That's archetype.  To nuke I'd roll a wizard?  No, that's subclass, to nuke I just need a mage, as all of them can do it. Also archetype.  But to MT, I should've rolled a guardian.  That's subclass.  How come rolling a fighter archetype isn't good enough for tanking, but it is for nuking/healing?  Hmmmm.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its wouldnt go over well if they are changed to Buffing, because like I said the majority of Guards created Guards to Tank, MOST Monks created monks to do damage, if you didnt thats probably the minority.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I doubt you know most monks.  Besides stereotpyical class decisions from other games and people's perceptions shouldn't regulate game balance.  This is EQ2, and this is SOEs balance decision.  Not yours, or mine.</FONT> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>What do we have gaige? a 2% advantage in mitigation and some dmg sharing abilities coupled along with our craptastic dps. <FONT color=#ffff00>Try twice as much mitigation unbuffed.  With a significant lead buffed.  More HPs buffed.  Great group buffs and the best protection spells in the game.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are crying because you were at a disadvantage, hell you were crying in your post for others that were at a disadvantage, and then you mock it all by saying why should we care if we are at a disadvantage. Just because we had an advantage before doesnt mean we have to withstand being craptastic in the future. It doesnt work out like that gaige...  <FONT color=#ffff00>Welcome to my world.  Yes I was mocking you and I'm glad you caught it.  I've been saying since release how things are unbalanced with the fighter classes and that guardians were broken and too good.  You know what I got?  Who cares, your class is dps.  So now should I say "who cares, your class is a buff bot".  Why should I feel sympathic for a class who the majority of people playing have been straight up [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] faces to me.  I shouldn't.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>As for not being able to "withstand" being craptastic after having an incredible advantage.  Deal with it.  Other classes have been for months.  Besides, you AREN'T crappy anyway.  /sigh</FONT></DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>so let me get this straight...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you are making fun or laughing at the fact that if someone else is at a disadvantage or if someone didnt care about your broken class, YET you are one of those classes now and backing up those classes that are broken or are at a disadvantage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you cant have two sides of the fence, Which is it? are you crying for the disadvantaged class or cheering for a disadvantaged class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i mean u cackle at the fact that guards might be at a disadvantage in the future, and then you whine/cry about the classes that are at a disadvantage now. dunno if its just me but that is [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] contradictive, and im kinda wondering if in a month or two you will be crying/whining about the disadvantage guards will/might be in?</DIV>

[Airog]

<DIV> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR> <DIV>"Guardians were broken, they were trivializing content, and they were 100x better tanks, especially in raids, than everyone else.  They were horribly broken.  They were using avoidance to tank, instead of mitigation, they were trivializing encounters by how the +defense skill worked."</DIV> <DIV>       Gaige, you seem pretty level headed, but comeon, parts of that statement are completely idiotic. With the same buffs, Monks avoid more then Guards  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  Guardians can avoid more than monks on live, since +defense and shields affect avoidance.  Both classes can get 100% avoid on the persona screen but guardians can get more total defense, which equates to more avoidance.  Thanks.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       Guards have higher avoidance unbuffed then Monks?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>if tanking was more avoidence based then Mitigation, we would not be tanks, as much avoidance as there is in tanking epics (on some of the harder encounters it isn't much), monks have more, they can avoid more, Guardians can Mitigate more. So based on the fact that one class has more Mit and less avoid then the other, the choice for raids so far in the game has been made. They have gone with the Mitigation tank.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong again.  In the current game mitigation is a secondary defensive trait.  It is used by all classes when avoidance fails.  So therefore a guardian is primarily tanking via avoidance (even against contested, where they hardly avoid) and then using their SUPERIOR mitigation to lessen the spike damage they receive.  In essence a guardian on live is like a super monk.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>    Hm, Guards have higher avoidance unbuffed then Monks?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>        100x better eh? Again, completely idiotic, heck, untill I hit 50 we were doing decent with an SK tank, and as it is now, he certainly could tank quite a few of the encounters we do. None better, none as good, but he CAN tank them. I don't know how a mfully fabled monk would fare on say, Zalak or Drayek, but chances are they would trvilize the encounter.  <FONT color=#ffff00>No matter how much fabled I'd get, how many master Is I'd have, and how many potions I use, I can not tank as well as Noah.  He gets hit less, for less, uses less mana to heal, and holds aggro better.  This is against any mobs, especially raid mobs.  On top of that Noah can tank mobs that I can't even stand in front of, such as Darathar and Nagalik, or Vox.  Therefore the guardian class is without a doubt better than every fighter class in this game.  Can I tank a group in Nek 2.0?  Sure.  But Noah can do it better.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>      This one really has me, I said that other fighters CANNOT tank as well as a Guardian, so, I am trying to understand why you even posted any rubtle to that one... Maybe you think everything everybody says is directed at you? That we are all against you here in everything we post? Would you please clarify that for me?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, don't throw around that bull sh**. Encounters are trivilized by the simply fact that if the make raids that get harder and harder so that you can do them once you gear up, the more gear you get the more raids you trivilize, period, to think elsewise is idiocy (unless SOE ran a program to look at gear and build the encounter accordingly every time you zoned in).  <FONT color=#ffff00>Well, you probably are an authority on idiocy, however:  Only guardians can buff their defense so much that they can "grey" out raid encounters, making themselves unhittable.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>          Um, hm, well, lets see here.... All Guardian defense buffs are group buffs... so, let me see here... AHHA! You are wrong. If a Guard can buff defense on a raid to trivilize the raid encounters, anybody can! Gaige, where are you pulling this stuff from?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       Last but not least, if there is a post where Moorguard or another Dev expressly says we are broken, please link it, else wise, stop saying we are broken, because that is not for you to decide, but rather SOE, and you can't say, well, the revamp is proof, because that doesn't mean we were broken. Just means they want to change the game (again)...  <FONT color=#ffff00>Believe what you want, opinions vary.</FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>       You and I are on the exact same page here, this is last statement is all about opinons.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></DIV>

[Airog]

Well, lets see here Gaige, there are what, 7 2x contested, then Borxx, that makes 8 contested for all fighters, and what, 6 4x contested? 8>6 meaning, you agree with me, all fighters can tank more then half of the contested mobs. Never said all fighters could tank 4x, heck, 4x aren't even half of the contested. Seems you agree with me about the instances also. Is that correct?

[Gaige]

IMHO unbuffed avoidance doesn't matter.  Why?  Because I don't solo/group/raid unbuffed.  Do you?  On live I think I have around 8% more avoid than Noah unbuffed.  Something like that.

[Airog]

Unbuffed is all that matters, as Monks can get the same buffs on them as Guards, like I said, Guard buffs are group... you have +8% unbuffed, you will have +8% fully buffed, i fail to see where Guards get all this extra defense? <p>Message Edited by Airoguy on <span class=date_text>09-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Airoguy wrote:<BR> Unbuffed is all that matters, as Monks can get the same buffs on them as Guards, like I said, Guard buffs are group... you have +8% unbuffed, you will have +8% fully buffed, i fail to see where Guards get all this extra defense? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Okay, so lets say fully buffed I have 108% avoidance and Noah has 100% avoidance.  He always has twice as much if not 3x as much mitigation as me.  In fact I've seen him at 100/100.</P> <P>So he is either dodging everything, or mitigating the hell out of it.</P> <P>Get it now?<BR></P>

[Airog]

Ok, Gaige, work with me buddy, 100% avoidance < 108% acvoidance. If tanking was ALL about Avoidance then you would be king, since apparently you are more suited there, so what it comes down to is Mitigation. Hm, lets see... I have 55% MIT unbuffed, so if you had half as much unbuffed that would be around 30% MIT, now seeing as the same holds true for MIT as AVOID, you would get all the MIT buffs we do. Meaning, Noah at 100/100, you at 108/75. That is not 2x or 3x the mit that you have. Of course he prolly has around 60% unbuffed, and you have what? 30%? 35%?

[Gaige]

<DIV>/sigh</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Nevermind, you just don't get it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I realize it comes down to mitigation, as mitigation is the last line of defense.  You use it to soften the blow when you get hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But the game is all about avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*IF* guardians couldn't get 50 or 60 (or 100 like live) % avoidance then they would be much more like brawlers, because they would rely on one defense type primarily and although they wouldn't take much spike damage, they would take a LOT more than they currently do due to their broken avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which would make the damage taken over time between the classes much more equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See?</DIV>

[Airog]

Yes, Gaige, I see, and if you read through all my posts you will specifically see me calling for equal damage over time on Gaurds and Monks. (Of course you would have to lose some DPS and utility) But I will leave that for you to go back and read. What my point is, is that within the avoidance numbers we have, MIT is king, given the chance would I drop a 5% avoid buff for a 5% MIT buff? YES, what Guard wouldn't? That right there is what, in my eyes, makes MIT king, that on an equal basis MIT is much more wanted.

[Airog]

<DIV>What about the rest? Wil you address that? Like how you said 2x or 3x MIT? Please address that issue as I have stated, and how about the number of raid mobs all fighters can tank? You seem to be fighting me tooth and nail, where I have valid points that you have all but conceeded to me. I have called for equal damage over time, and you are throwing that at me like I don't know we don't take equal damage over time.</DIV>

[John]

<P>Please do not nerf tanks out of main class status into "support tanks" - please consider that the basic function of the Guardian has been to be Main Tank for almost 1 year now, and was advertised as such in the manuals. </P> <P>If you change the very purpose and nature of the tank, you will have made my near year developing a character I like that fits my play style worthless, you will have not "balanced" the fighters, you will have FORCED me to do one of three things - play a character fundamentally different in play style than I choose (like poofing a wizard into a summoner for balance - it may be more "balanced", but you changed the very "style" of play); two, start at zero with another class to get the same style of character, or three, quit. </P> <P>Guardians have been KNOWN as the raid tank for some tme, and the manual described them asthe best group tank - do not nopw change us to soemthing fundamentally different to makea few whiney board posters happy, PLZ</P>

[Airog]

Hm, manual said we would be best tank? Can you direct me, and all the other people looking and posting on this thread to what page or where? That would be VERY interesting to see...

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JohnW3 wrote:<BR> <P>Guardians have been KNOWN as the raid tank for some tme, and the manual described them asthe best group tank - do not nopw change us to soemthing fundamentally different to makea few whiney board posters happy, PLZ<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>They aren't, they are fixing the game by replacing broken combat mechanics with ones that work.<BR>

[ShinigamiD]

<P>Just remember that Gaige is that most despicable of creatures, a nerfherder.  He will never be satisfied until he is the top dog, and then will gloat.  We have him admitting that, in live, he is perfectly capable of tanking every bit of content in this game.  We have him admitting that in beta he can tank every bit of content in this game.  But since a guardian can tank better, they must be nerfed, because they are better than the almighty Gaige at something.</P> <P>He's also in an uberguild, uberguilds don't give a rat's backside about anybody but themselves, Gaige and his ilk don't care that with what he is advocating Guardians and other plate tanks will be unable to level up, since we can't solo effectively and with inferior DPS and no utility quite unattractive for groups in comparison to his beloved brawlers.  It's OK that brawlers are the best soloers of all the fighters and will be the best choice for XP group tanks, it doesn't matter for Gaige, and all the verbal ducking and weaving is immaterial to that point.  When it goes live we'll still get to hear Gaige whining and crying and spamming the boards with his garbage, mostly gloating whenever those of us who aren't 'uber' complain about how impossible it'll be for plate tanks to level.</P>

[Airog]

Leveling sounds like it is not going to be fun come expansion time... =(

[aaron_borst]

<div></div>I did not post this<p>Message Edited by aaron_borst on <span class="date_text">09-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:05 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by aaron_borst on <span class=date_text>09-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:05 PM</span>

[Nemi]

<P>There are 3 roles in this game...arguably 4.</P> <P>1) Tank</P> <P>2) DPS</P> <P>3) Heal</P> <P>Poss 4) Buff/Control</P> <P>There are 24 subclasses, how exactly do you make this work?</P> <P>Guardian is best tank. Ok that is Role 1 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do?</P> <P>Assassin is best DPS. Ok that is Role2 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do?</P> <P>Templar is best heal. Ok that is Role 3 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do?</P> <P>Get the point? 4 roles, 4 archtypes. Each subclass should be able to fill a Role in ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME. Not just solo or group, or Raid x2 but the big bad boys too.</P> <P> </P> <P>Guardians need new toys, not best tank (tm) ability.</P>

[aaron_borst]

<div></div>I did not post this<p>Message Edited by aaron_borst on <span class="date_text">09-03-2005</span> <span class="time_text">06:04 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by aaron_borst on <span class=date_text>09-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 PM</span>

[ShinigamiD]

We no longer will have 'good buffs' with the changes, since I doubt anybody but the Gaige and Gungo show could argue that a .2 percent (that's POINT 2 percent) buff is worthwhile, which is the net of all our defensive buffs, since they've made Defense effectively meaningless.

[aaron_borst]

I did not post this<p>Message Edited by aaron_borst on <span class=date_text>09-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:06 PM</span>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aaron_borst wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________</P> <P>There are 3 roles in this game...arguably 4.</P> <P>1) Tank</P> <P>2) DPS</P> <P>3) Heal</P> <P>Poss 4) Buff/Control</P> <P>There are 24 subclasses, how exactly do you make this work?</P> <P>Guardian is best tank. Ok that is Role 1 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do? <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Nothing because tanking doesnt stack. Their can only be one MT. So i guess the answer would be sit and watch until your MT logs : )</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Assassin is best DPS. Ok that is Role2 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do? <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>DPS! There is not a limit to how many people can DPS because unlike tanking DPS stacks.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Templar is best heal. Ok that is Role 3 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do? <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Help keep the MT alive. Similar to DPS healing stacks so the more healers you bring on a raid the better chance of surviving.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Get the point? 4 roles, 4 archtypes. Each subclass should be able to fill a Role in ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME. Not just solo or group, or Raid x2 but the big bad boys too.</P> <P> </P> <P>Guardians need new toys, not best tank (tm) ability.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Nemi]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aaron_borst wrote:<BR> <DIV> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ___________________</P> <P>There are 3 roles in this game...arguably 4.</P> <P>1) Tank</P> <P>2) DPS</P> <P>3) Heal</P> <P>Poss 4) Buff/Control</P> <P>There are 24 subclasses, how exactly do you make this work?</P> <P>Guardian is best tank. Ok that is Role 1 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do? <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Nothing because tanking doesnt stack. Their can only be one MT. So i guess the answer would be sit and watch until your MT logs : )</FONT></STRONG></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Or wait till after the CU and use any subclass fighter, the way it should be</FONT></P> <P>Assassin is best DPS. Ok that is Role2 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do? <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>DPS! There is not a limit to how many people can DPS because unlike tanking DPS stacks.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Templar is best heal. Ok that is Role 3 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do? <STRONG><FONT color=#ff0000>Help keep the MT alive. Similar to DPS healing stacks so the more healers you bring on a raid the better chance of surviving.</FONT></STRONG></P> <P>Get the point? 4 roles, 4 archtypes. Each subclass should be able to fill a Role in ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME. Not just solo or group, or Raid x2 but the big bad boys too.</P> <P> </P> <P>Guardians need new toys, not best tank (tm) ability.</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____</P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Airog]

<P>aaron_borst:</P> <P>"I know that most other guards out there are going to hate me for this but as I see it all fighter classes should be as equaly as good a tank.</P> <DIV>Guards and zerkers should tank with Mit.</DIV> <DIV>Monks tank with avoidance.</DIV> <DIV>Pallys tank with mit and there heals.</DIV> <DIV>In the end we should all be able to keep aggro, stay alive(with the help of our groupmates) and keep our groupmates alive.</DIV> <DIV>If fighters are not the main tank the only thing ther good for is sitting on the side of a battle and picking there butts."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               Hm, where to start... First off, I am sorry, but I cannot think of a nicer way to word this, but there are so incredibly many flaws in that statement, I will try to sort through them... First of, if you take two tanks, one Avoid based, and one MIT based, and balance them out so that the take equal damage over time, the MIT tank will be MUCH MUCH BETTER ON RAIDS. Very hard to counter act this within the limits of SOE's design, save, giveing the avoidance tank SO dam much avoidance, they get missed a high enough % of times to NEVER take spike damage.</DIV> <DIV>             Pallies/SK's haveing to heal themselves to raid tank? No way in hell dude.</DIV> <DIV>             Equally good to tank... what? Raids? Groups? Solo? There is a fine line there, as from what I hear and see, Brawlers, SK's, Zerkers, (not sure on pallies), are SUPERIOR group and solo tanks (there is a fine line here, that I do not want to get into at this time). Where as Guards single advantage is epic content.</DIV> <DIV>             Can you in any way conceivebly balance us so we tank equally solo, group, and epic, without makeing us total cookie cutters?</DIV> <DIV>             If not tanking fighters are good for nothing? Hm, lets see... DPS, buffs, utility, (rezzing comes to mind), heck even Guards as is are not "useless" on raids when at the moment not MT/MA. But from what I see some people wanting, they want it so that any more then two fighters on a raid are useless.</DIV>

[Airog]

<P>Nemi:</P> <P>"There are 3 roles in this game...arguably 4.</P> <P>1) Tank</P> <P>2) DPS</P> <P>3) Heal</P> <P>Poss 4) Buff/Control</P> <P>There are 24 subclasses, how exactly do you make this work?</P> <P>Guardian is best tank. Ok that is Role 1 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do?</P> <P>Assassin is best DPS. Ok that is Role2 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do?</P> <P>Templar is best heal. Ok that is Role 3 filled, what do the 5 other subclasses do?</P> <P>Get the point? 4 roles, 4 archtypes. Each subclass should be able to fill a Role in ALL ASPECTS OF THE GAME. Not just solo or group, or Raid x2 but the big bad boys too.</P> <P> </P> <P>Guardians need new toys, not best tank (tm) ability."</P> <P> </P> <P>        I would like to say a few things here, first off, where would we be without Coercer/Illusionist? You could make that a role all by itself.</P> <P>      You say best tank role is filled, on what? Raids? Groups? Solo? Again, Guardians are not the number one absolute tank in all situations, pretty much just epic encounters (there are a few exclusions here).</P> <P>        Each class brings differant buffs, Tank is MUCH better with Dirge/Troubador, as well as other certain buff classes, certain classes buff DPS groups to be much more effective, you are simplifying this WAY too much, you need to sit back and lok at the complexities of this game a little more.</P>

[aaron_borst]

<div></div><span>I did not post this<blockquote><hr>Airoguy wrote:<p>aaron_borst:</p> <p>"I know that most other guards out there are going to hate me for this but as I see it all fighter classes should be as equaly as good a tank.</p> <div>Guards and zerkers should tank with Mit.</div> <div>Monks tank with avoidance.</div> <div>Pallys tank with mit and there heals.</div> <div>In the end we should all be able to keep aggro, stay alive(with the help of our groupmates) and keep our groupmates alive.</div> <div>If fighters are not the main tank the only thing ther good for is sitting on the side of a battle and picking there butts."</div> <div> </div> <div>               Hm, where to start... First off, I am sorry, but I cannot think of a nicer way to word this, but there are so incredibly many flaws in that statement, I will try to sort through them... First of, if you take two tanks, one Avoid based, and one MIT based, and balance them out so that the take equal damage over time, the MIT tank will be MUCH MUCH BETTER ON RAIDS. Very hard to counter act this within the limits of SOE's design, save, giveing the avoidance tank SO dam much avoidance, they get missed a high enough % of times to NEVER take spike damage.</div> <div>             Pallies/SK's haveing to heal themselves to raid tank? No way in hell dude.</div> <div>             Equally good to tank... what? Raids? Groups? Solo? There is a fine line there, as from what I hear and see, Brawlers, SK's, Zerkers, (not sure on pallies), are SUPERIOR group and solo tanks (there is a fine line here, that I do not want to get into at this time). Where as Guards single advantage is epic content.</div> <div>             Can you in any way conceivebly balance us so we tank equally solo, group, and epic, without makeing us total cookie cutters?</div> <div>             If not tanking fighters are good for nothing? Hm, lets see... DPS, buffs, utility, (rezzing comes to mind), heck even Guards as is are not "useless" on raids when at the moment not MT/MA. But from what I see some people wanting, they want it so that any more then two fighters on a raid are useless.</div><hr></blockquote>Dude, Read what I wrote man. Im not saying thats the way it is. Im saying <b>Should</b>.  this is acording to SOE I know its not the case, and all the nerfs and 'Changes' they do will probobly make things worse. But hey we will see won't we. By the way Im a kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] Group tank. and what the hell is a solo tank?</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by aaron_borst on <span class=date_text>09-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:07 PM</span>

[Airog]

<DIV>aaron_borst, hm, I seem to be missing part of your post, you tell me to re-read your post because "Im not saying thats the way it is. Im saying <B>Should</B>." Did you read the part where everything I am saying is theoretical? IF you take this, and IF you do that... Solo tnak might not be the best word, lets say, solo capable instead, so insert solo capable instead of solo tank. Yes, I am sure you are a kick-[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] group tank, but are you as good as an equally geared and skilled monk? In live it doesn't seem so, but I don't play Beta, so not sure whats going on there. Maybe that has changed...</DIV>

[aaron_borst]

For the record There were many posts in this forum that were posted under my account, Thats what I get for leaving my PC logged on to the forum website and having jacked up friends. For the record this is my view on the game Mecanics. Every class has a 'Pure' subcalss Fighter= Guardian, Mage=Widard/Warlok, Priest=Templar/Inquisitor, Scout=Assassan. All other subclasses suffer in the main abilities of there class because they have other utilities and/or cross over into other classes. eg. Palidans with healing from the priest class or zerkers with there extra DPS. Any of the 'Pure' subclasses will do better at there classes main ability. but the other 5 subcalsses should be able to handle themselvs in the situations. But the other 5 subclasses in any class do have other uses that are invaluble. I realy cant say muck about certian other fighter subclasses as I have never grouped with say a brawler or a Monk., nor do I know any. So thats my view.(as skewed as you all may think it or really is).  But anyways just thought I would clear things up. By the way those posts were kind of funny. <div></div>

[Airog]

Rofl @ aaro_borst's friends...

[Zodi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <P>Just because someone is under the fight category (in my opinion) doesnt mean they ahve to tank, that is an absurd asumption that fighters = tanks.<FONT color=#ffff00>  Well, SOE says it does.</FONT></P> <P>Anyways, Guardians will be [Removed for Content] off and probably leave if they are no better at tanking than any other pajama wearing, self healing, feign death doing, life tapping, or any other gangster with a card in their sleeve.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Goodbye.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have no sympathy for someone who played an overpowered, broken class for months crying that'll they will quit if the game is fixed and the class balanced. <FONT color=#ffff00>But we are a suppose to sympathize with all your whinning over the last 2 month. The only one who has been crying is you. I havent heard from no one on my server the things you say. They basically recognize that Guardians were desinged for MT roles. Actually you know there are many roles in raids but out 24 player raid there only 1 or 2 guardians max. Well Cage you just made that 1 guardian (BUFFER) out off 24 other characters. Only you consider that fair.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>To be honest, I dont care anymore what happen because I play this game for fun. </FONT>Please remember just because you pay to play does not give you the right make demands.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>My final words are to SOE:  </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>Gentlemen I hope this suppose change is for the well of the game. I understand that this  passion for most of you. Please consider all the variables before making this change. I hope the end of results will benefitiate all the classes and make EQ 2 the place to be for players of all types (Yeah including the whinning ones. We would never get rid of those.) </FONT></P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Zodian wrote: <P><FONT color=#ffff00>They basically recognize that Guardians were desinged for MT roles. Actually you know there are many roles in raids but out 24 player raid there only 1 or 2 guardians max.  </FONT><FONT color=#ff3300>Well since the people you asked on your server realize the guardian is the only MT choice, then maybe we should hurry up and delete the other 5 classes.  BTW 1 or 2 guardians is probably 1 or 2 more than any other fighter needed in DoF.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[dparker7]

<P>Gaige, if your class is currently worthless on raids, why does your guild allow you to attend?  Wait, you're not useless now?  </P> <P>Monks currently add stiffles and interrupts as well as good DPS and possible MTing and offtanking on certain encounters.  There are plenty of reasons for a monk to be on a raid right now and multiple monks are worthwhile.  Currently, a Guardian's only role on a raid is MT.  You need 2 at most and any more are mainly a waste of space.  After the changes, with diminished DPS, it seems like having any more then 3 fighters of any class will be a waste of space.  This wont really be known until the best buff stacking is figured out, but it would certainly seem, ALL fighter classes will be less desireable after the combat changes.    </P>

[Gaige]

<P>I come now because I have the best spells out of our brawlers and I can outdps everyone but our best zerkers and warlocks.  We always have multiple guardians on our raid, even if they aren't needed for offtanking.  We always have because we have 3 or 4 fully fabled (or close to it) guardians.  So your point is a moot issue.</P> <P>All the testing I've done on beta shows that my dps isn't even worthwhile (which I'm fine with) while I'm still not as good of a tank as the guardian class on raid mobs.</P> <P>I'll probably still raid after (at least I hope so) if only because I know how to play my class and make the most of what we can do.  But our chart topping DPS is going bye bye.  </P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>We'll see what happens I suppose, but I've never understood why guardians downplay their class so much.</P>

[TunaBoo]

I wouldn't let gaige come to my raid. <div></div>

[Nemi]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>I wouldn't let gaige come to my raid.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Who cares?</FONT></DIV>

[aaron_borst]

You know, Whoo cares, just play the game and have fun,  and if your not try some other MMO. Just dont try RYL I had a demo of that and its about the gayest  MMO ever made. <div></div>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gaige wrote:<BR> <P>I come now because I have the best spells out of our brawlers and I can outdps everyone but our best zerkers and warlocks.  We always have multiple guardians on our raid, even if they aren't needed for offtanking.  We always have because we have 3 or 4 fully fabled (or close to it) guardians.  So your point is a moot issue.</P> <P>All the testing I've done on beta shows that my dps isn't even worthwhile (which I'm fine with) while I'm still not as good of a tank as the guardian class on raid mobs.</P> <P>I'll probably still raid after (at least I hope so) if only because I know how to play my class and make the most of what we can do.  But our chart topping DPS is going bye bye.  </P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>We'll see what happens I suppose, but I've never understood why guardians downplay their class so much.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>eh how do we downplay our class exactly?

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>I wouldn't let gaige come to my raid.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Who cares?</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>haha apparently tunaboo does or he woudl let him come to his raid <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>I wouldn't let gaige come to my raid.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I'm too good to raid with you anyway.  I'm used to Noah, I just couldn't handle anyone with less skill than him.  Sorry Tuna.

[stoutbrewdrink]

<DIV>gaige why dont you goto your brawler boards you damned forum troll....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i wouldnt let you come to my raids either...</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stoutbrewdrinker wrote:<BR> <DIV>gaige why dont you goto your brawler boards you damned forum troll....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i wouldnt let you come to my raids either...</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Guardians post in our forums.</P> <P>Your loss on the raid thing <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Airog]

I would let Gaige come on my raids. But he would be takeing Gungo's place! HAHA! =P I think what Tuna said was a joke, and it seems you got a little defensive about it Gaige. Don't let what some of the other people are saying get to you. They just like to flame you, because, well, it is kinda wierd haveing a Monk in the Guard boards advocateing for us to become much less needed. I personnally don't like to flame, but I see where they are comeing from. Do you?

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Airoguy wrote: <P>I personnally don't like to flame, but I see where they are comeing from. Do you?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Of course.  Its expected anyway, especially by Tuna.  He's only been doing it since November <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Airog]

Haha, only been partakeing in the Guardian forums for the last few weeks.

[Archemed]

<P>I dont read forums much and post to them even less....so I come to this discussion late.</P> <P> </P> <P>So someone help me get this concept straight as it is most confusing to me......</P> <P> </P> <P>If I wanted to be a tank and I was starting a character, where on the list would monk be? /shrug it would be WAY low on my list as I was kinda confused on why monk was even in the fighter class to begin with.....kinda figured SoE had to put em somewhere and nothing really fit....so of the four fighter was closest</P> <P> </P> <P>If it turns out you CAN tank cause you are one of the fighter subclasses, be thankful, cause you could have just as easily been grouped in the scout class and not be able to tank at ALL.</P> <P> </P> <P>But for heavens sake, where do you get off asking to be able to tank as well as someone that PICKED a tank class? lol</P> <P> </P> <P>Little boys that want their cake and to eat it too I reckon</P>

[Airog]

They are argueing that a monk IS a tank class, some want them to be as good of a tank class as Guardians for raiding. Some want to be slightly less equal then a Guardian at raid tanking.