Does race matter at higher levels?

[Manohate]

<DIV>Does my race matter for HP, attack, etc at higher levels?  It seems all the tanks are Barbarian, but I don't know if that's because we're so stuck in the EQ1 mindset.  I want to make a Dark Elf tank of some sort(not sure which yet), but I won't if my HP, AC or Attack will suffer..  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>TIA for any advice on this.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Yes http://www.eq2labs.com/playerRankings/?server=0&class=0&filter=0&sort=0 Of course gear and setup matters.. but overall HP on ogres is a lot better then hp on elfs ;P If you want to be a badass maintank, I suggest you pay attention to race and racial traits. <div></div>

[Manohate]

Thank you very much..

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>for traits check out http://eq2.primagames.com/pdfs/traits.pdf  Some of the values off but it gets u the idea <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:12 PM</span>

[Manohate]

That's even better.  Thanks again.

[Urglu]

<DIV>The difference isn't great enough to matter.  The +5 defense was the only trait that was arguably important and that will be gone with the new caps they are putting in.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are a min/maxer Ogres win out right now, of course post-combat changes they won't be anymore.  Either way it is mathematically insignificant. </DIV>

[TunaBoo]

3% hp keeps you alive, you can say it doesn't matter all you want, we know it does. <div></div>

[Mig]

3% of lets say 5000 is 150 hit points. It's 300 at 10,000. That will not make or break you. I can't think of any situation I've encountered where that small amount of hit points made the difference.

[TunaBoo]

Keep thinking that ;P <div></div>

[Sazzabi8]

You can kill anything in the game with a guardian tank of any race. It wont require any more healers with a Dark Elf or an Ogre. 3% more hps or 5 more defense is nice, but it wont make the difference between life or death when you are raid buffed. With the upcoming combat changes wis/int might become important to melee and spell avoidance and traits might be redone. Pick a race based on what you want to look like. It will probably be more important to your enjoyment of the game. If you want to be ugly, go Ogre. <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Well if being 95% as good as you can be, to have scales and a tail, go ahead ;P <div></div>

[blueduckie]

<DIV>You can say 3% hp will not make a differece and 99% of the time it may not but that 1% of the time it can. If it doesnt why do we stack up all our hp buffs. Battle tactics and Do or Die dont really matter by that thinking. You gotta take your hp as you can. However i agree play whatever race you want I am a Dark Elf my self and have no problems but i dont consider myself on par to a ogre or dwarf in same gear but i dont consider myself useles compared they just have that small edge. Any race can tank anything as long as it is surround by well played players but there are reasons Guardians choose 3%hp increase the 2 chances we can non racial trait. HP mitigation are king and every bit makes you just that much better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deretti</DIV><p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:57 PM</span>

[Sazzabi8]

Hitpoints arn't the only thing you use to tank. There is also mitigation, avoidance (which I find to be mouch more important than hps) and resists if you are fighting a caster. Races with higher innate agi are going to have higher avoidance and get missed more. <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Once you get over 400 agi.. even 20 extra agi gives u like .02 avoidances, doesn't do crap. On the other hand the extra 20 hitpoints may get you through a damage streak so heals can catch up. But feel free to continue beating a dead horse. <div></div>

[Sazzabi8]

Every little bit helps you know, however small it is...<span> :smileywink:</span> <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Ah but when it comes to dying or not dying.. would you rather have the HP to aborb a hit, or  hope your extra .02 avoidance kicks in and lets you dodge the hit? <div></div>

[Sazzabi8]

<div></div>Depends what I am fighting. For example Meeting of the Minds or Zalak I would chose agi and avoidance over hps since there is no chance of a damage spike killing me. But there is some danger (if we do it with low numbers) of my healers going out of power if I get hit more often. There are a lot of mobs that fall into that category. For something like Darathar I would probably go hps. Mitigation or resists would still most likely be more important than both depending on the mob. +20agi above 400 gives  0.8% avoidance increase <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sazzabi8 on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:21 AM</span>

[stelle]

who isnt topped out at 100% avoidance during  a raid usually? <div></div>

[Sazzabi8]

There is no cap on avoidance or mitigation even though they say 100% to a lvl 50. <div></div>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<DIV>And agian i agree with tunaboo, on raids we ussually let the ogre tank the mobs altough my gear is better and i have like 150 mitigation on him versus 500/700 HP. I ussually do tank the caster mobs tho since i got better resists! 3 k magic / 3 k divine / 3 k mental compared to the ogres 1500 in all of those he has higher decease and heat cold stuff tho!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways to get back to the HP issue its all a preference you will very rarely get into a tough spot where those 500/700 HP really matters but you will get in those spots during raids i have been in raids where the mob died (EL demon) and i was left standing of the entire raid with like 5 HP left. This was at lvl 38, 38 was also the average lvl of our raid back then but it was fun! oh yeah and a warlock and a wizzy + coercer were standing in a fluke group so they didnt get teh arcane dot we did it with 9 peeps and succeeded!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then agian raids are what 5% of the game maybe 10%, i picked the power regen options and i love it just because i am a speedpuller in XP groups i used to tell people NEVER to assist me! then pick a melee class who tehy should assist so taht i could pull whatever i wanted and build some agroe while the previous mob is still beating on me and the melee class stays on it till its dead! and moves on to my next mob. I JUST LOVE REGENING AS FAST AS I DO inside a lil less then outside offcourse but wiht one block of blue i can just keep pulling non stop healers go nuts DPS run oop and i keep going till they have to use manastone and potions of clarity non stop. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well at least till i see the dreaded note of i need an afk after this one plz stop.... So its all in yer own gameplay if ya like to be a true meatshield go HP and you will prolly get picked as raidtank more often! if ya dont wanna be raid tank all the time like myself (i prefer MA job on raids) then go extra power or the power regen option!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways yall have fun now and dont be min / maxers it kinda defeats the purpose of the game i think!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Shades 50 Kerran guardian of lucandlere</DIV> <DIV>Breezy 42 Dark Elf Coercer of lucandlere</DIV> <DIV>Cloaked 36 Gnome Defiler of lucandlere</DIV>

[aislynn00]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Once you get over 400 agi.. even 20 extra agi gives u like .02 avoidances, doesn't do crap. On the other hand the extra 20 hitpoints may get you through a damage streak so heals can catch up. But feel free to continue beating a dead horse.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You may choose to bury your head in the sand and pretend the horse is dead, but that doesn't make it so.</P> <P>A couple of Moorgard quotes (both are taken from different combat revamp update notes on the test server):</P> <P>"Agility buffs now have a more meaningful effect."</P> <P>So, Agility will, point for point, mean more than it currently does.</P> <P>"Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility."</P> <P>Note that Strength is compared <EM>directly</EM> to Agility to determine the bonus or penalty applied to an attack; they don't generate bonuses separately any longer; so as long as the mob's Strength and the tank's Agility aren't on completely different scales, Agility will most likely matter quite a bit in this regard, too.  </P> <P>And let's not forget the most interesting fact stated in the second quote: Agility will not only help you avoid damage, it will also <EM>lower the damage of the mob striking you</EM>.  For the benefit of all the cerebrally challenged ogres out there, let me spell that out for you: effectively speaking, after the combat revamp, more Agility will mean more mitigation.</P> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Elysian Dawn</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV>

[aislynn00]

<DIV>On a related note, since Wisdom will soon be playing a major role in terms of spell damage mitigation, ogres will most likely suffer a double blow, as it were: not only is their Agility inferior but they will also have to suffer from below-par spell mitigation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Personally, playing a High Elf, a race with above-average Agility, Defense and Parry racial traits, and first place in Wisdom, I'm pretty happy about the whole situation. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Elysian Dawn</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV></DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Eh soft cap for agi is STILL 200, and my fatars raid buffs to over 400. Its not like I have no agi, I can self buff to like 190 agi as an ogre. Also can get any resist to over 6000, so not worried there. At 6000 resist and a shimmering star BP, not much casters are going to touch me. <div></div>

[Manohate]

I had no intention of starting this war with my original post, and for that I apologize.  However, there has been great deal of information posted in this thread.  Thanks to all of you.

[aislynn00]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Eh soft cap for agi is STILL 200, and my fatars raid buffs to over 400. Its not like I have no agi, I can self buff to like 190 agi as an ogre. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>It is irrelevant what you are able to buff your Agility to; anyone similarly equipped is able to do the same, meaning someone with a higher base Agility will still be that much farther ahead.</P> <P>At any rate, I seriously doubt the soft cap on Agility will be 200 or any other constant value.  According to Moorgard, you will be comparing attacker Strength with defender Agility and determine the damage bonus based on that; so given high enough mob Strength, you will always be able to add Agility and still see a noticeable mitigation benefit.</P> <P>Say the mob sports 220 Strength and you have 200 Agility.  The game engine would compare 220 to 200 and determine that the attacker's damage would be given a moderate damage bonus.  Add another 20 Agility, however, and the damage bonus would entirely disappear.  Another 20 Agility on top of that, and the attacker's damage would actually be penalized.</P> <P>Now, on the other hand, if the defender sported 400 Agility versus an attacker with merely 220 Strength, adding another 20 Agility wouldn't effect much (400 has 220 completely out-ranked and would most likely already result in the maximum damage penalty--<EM>this</EM> is where things will undoubtedly be capped.)  Of course, I would expect melee-based epic(x4) mobs to sport Strength in the 400 - 500 range, if not higher, meaning that any amount of additional Agility would be quite beneficial.</P> <P>A lot of the above is speculation, of course, considering we don't know the exact formulae and mob specifications yet, but no matter what, Moorgard has clearly stated that Agility is going to matter a lot more than currently is the case.</P> <P></P> <HR> Khayne Darkmere<BR>Leader of Elysian Dawn<BR>Lucan D'Lere<BR> <P>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <SPAN class=date_text>07-12-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:52 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by aislynn00 on <span class=date_text>07-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:53 PM</span>

[Juk]

<div></div>ogres dont have any more hp then my wood elf. my wood elf has 23 stamina nekkid. stamina != hp. str, agi or sta dont make much difference but racial traits do indeed. humans, barbardians, ogres and dwarfs have +5 defense trait. wood elves, halflings and high elves have "avoidance" trait which gives them +2 defense +2 parry. other races arent fit for min/max guardian <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Jukis on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:34 AM</span>

[TunaBoo]

^^ Speakem english? A naked ogre has 20 more sta then a naked wood elf (or whatever). 1 sta us 14 hp points 1-200, and 4 hp 200+. Your post hurts my head ;( <div></div>

[Sazzabi8]

<span><blockquote><hr>Jukis wrote: str, agi or sta dont make much difference but racial traits do indeed. humans, barbardians, ogres and dwarfs have +5 defense trait. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Iksars also get +5 defense trait. </span><div></div>

[aislynn00]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jukis wrote:<BR>other races arent fit for min/max guardian <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well, Noah is a Half-Elven guardian and is the main tank of Fires of Heaven, a guild which seems to be doing fine.  He may not have quite the avoidance of a human or the minor HP advantage of an ogre, but he has what it takes to tank every single epic(x4) in the game except Nagafen, so I don't believe it truly matters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere<BR>Leader of Elysian Dawn<BR>Lucan D'Lere</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Juk]

only stats that matter for guardian are agility and sta, with dolls and certain items you can swap those values if they arent both over 400. ogres have 15 agility, 25 sta=total 40. wood elfs have 30 agility, 16 sta= total 46. ogres have sta trait they can pick, wood elfs have agi trait they can pick. tuna still think ogres have more stats? my guardian has selfbuffed 7300hp and all traits are on agi, only 2 fabled items allso. i know you might have 7800hp but you got allmost full fabled suit too. 20 stats doesnt make much difference nor does the +5 defense like someone else posted, even noah can tank without them. some ppl like me just like to min/max. <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

<div></div>You are missing how important ogre +10 to defense and +3% hp are. ANY RACE can tank ANY encounter in the game. There is no encounter you MUST be a troll or you MUST be a dwarf to tank. However, by BEST... it clearly means mostly likely to win. It may take an elf two times to tank the same mob I get on the first shot, due to damage spikes smashing them. This topic will go on forever, as lesser races try to justify their race choice on public forums. You all should just suck it up and bow down to the power of the ogre. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class=date_text>07-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:27 PM</span>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr> This topic will go on forever, as lesser races try to justify their race choice on public forums. You all should just suck it up and bow down to the power of the ogre. <div></div><p>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <span class="date_text">07-13-2005</span> <span class="time_text">04:27 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>

[WinterAnar]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR> <BR>This topic will go on forever, as lesser races try to justify their race choice on public forums. You all should just suck it up and bow down to the power of the ogre.<BR> <P>Message Edited by TunaBoo on <SPAN class=date_text>07-13-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:27 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Or the power of a Dwarf who has the exact stamina, with the +5 defence, +3% HP and +5 Sta traits that you think make your ogre the best.  Nothing against ogres, but I felt the need to knock you off that soapbox you were standing on.</DIV>

[Ceruline]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> aislynn00 wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR> <DIV>Once you get over 400 agi.. even 20 extra agi gives u like .02 avoidances, doesn't do crap. On the other hand the extra 20 hitpoints may get you through a damage streak so heals can catch up. But feel free to continue beating a dead horse.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You may choose to bury your head in the sand and pretend the horse is dead, but that doesn't make it so.</P> <P>A couple of Moorgard quotes (both are taken from different combat revamp update notes on the test server):</P> <P>"Agility buffs now have a more meaningful effect."</P> <P>So, Agility will, point for point, mean more than it currently does.</P> <P>"Melee damage bonuses are now calculated based on the attacker's strength versus the defender's agility."</P> <P>Note that Strength is compared <EM>directly</EM> to Agility to determine the bonus or penalty applied to an attack; they don't generate bonuses separately any longer; so as long as the mob's Strength and the tank's Agility aren't on completely different scales, Agility will most likely matter quite a bit in this regard, too. </P> <P>And let's not forget the most interesting fact stated in the second quote: Agility will not only help you avoid damage, it will also <EM>lower the damage of the mob striking you</EM>.  For the benefit of all the cerebrally challenged ogres out there, let me spell that out for you: effectively speaking, after the combat revamp, more Agility will mean more mitigation.</P> <DIV> <HR> Khayne Darkmere</DIV> <DIV>Leader of Elysian Dawn</DIV> <DIV>Lucan D'Lere</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>That "Agility buffs will have a greater effect" quote is taken slightly out of context.  That particular patch note was after the initial iteration of the combat changes had more or less negated Agility as a defensive factor altogether.  The patch you are referring to restored agility as a factor, but it still had slightly less of an avoidance effect than it had prior to changes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In any case, they pulled the changes and have been revising them for a few months, so I wouldn't read too much into the limited subset of changes put on Test a few months ago.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> WinterAnarth wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>Or the power of a Dwarf who has the exact stamina, with the +5 defence, +3% HP and +5 Sta traits that you think make your ogre the best.  Nothing against ogres, but I felt the need to knock you off that soapbox you were standing on.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ogres get +10 defense.<BR>

[TunaBoo]

Dorf also has less agi I believe, which is the 2nd most improtant trait to me... tho sta is king for the tuna method ;P <div></div>

[WinterAnar]

<DIV>I was under the impression that the +5 defence to an ally racial trait was much like any other use on others buffs in that you couldn't use it on yourself?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for stats:  Ogre     Dwarf</DIV> <DIV>Str:                  30          22</DIV> <DIV>Agi:                  15          16</DIV> <DIV>Sta:                  25          25</DIV> <DIV>Int:                    15          12</DIV> <DIV>Wis:                  15          25</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So important stats are fairly similar starting, but with Wis being more important for resists after the revamp it's anyones guess how high Wis will effect things.</DIV><p>Message Edited by WinterAnarth on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:50 PM</span>

[Zodi]

<DIV>I think the solution this ordeal will come in a future patch.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In my opinion Ogres are the best suited guardian race out there. I have to agree with the uber players posting here.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If we just measure tanks by HP's I think the selection is clear GO OGRE!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However I would like to see that in a near future other stats are taking in consideration.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For example:</DIV> <UL> <LI><FONT color=#ff0033>I consider logical that wisdom should affect stun resitance and even duration. Why? Lets say you are warrior who has endured battle and learn from it, the chances to break stunning effects by blows are far better than a big [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] warrior who has barely lifted a sword in life. </FONT></LI></UL> <P>I hope that races traits are reconsider because from what I see Ogres are the best. I also have to consider what else ogres are good to make this attack. Here is my why:</P> <OL> <LI>Ogres are the only race that gets superb STR which controls hate and damage. (STARTING STR 30)</LI> <LI>Ogres also have the highest achievable HPS in the game. (+5 Stamina (racial trait), +3% health (racial trait) and starting STA of 25 second best starting stamina in the game)</LI> <LI>Ogres get +10 defense ( basically +5 defense X 2 from racial traits)</LI></OL> <P>NO OTHER RACE COMES EVEN CLOSE TO HAVE THOSE ADVANTAGES.</P> <P>So many players canno tbe wrong. If you want to have the best possible chances to be the best tank in the game GO OGRE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!</P> <P>If you dont care about being a min/max then just do as you please. Choose a race that you like it because it "looks cool"</P>

[Sazzabi8]

<div></div><div></div>Strength and melee damage doesn't affect hate at all. Melee based hate is generated by swings (haste and weapon delay) and how good your weapon is. Ogre's do have the highest hitpoints but we don't just tank with hps. There is also agility and avoidance to consider. There are a lot of times when the efficiency of getting hit less outweighs the hp difference. One of the  +5 defense traits Ogres and Humans get is castable on others, so anyone can have that up. <div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sazzabi8 on <span class=date_text>07-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 PM</span>

[Zodi]

<DIV>Yes I agree that I would prefer the attitude of I AM NOT GETTING HIT! rather than HIT ME CAUSE I CAN TAKE AND MORE</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The diference between the ogres agility and iskar is 15 vs 22+3(racial) = 10 points However the hps nakid (no gear at all) is about 250-300 with all the racial traits focused on STa and Health. Do you think 10 more agilty will allow you to filter 250 hps of damage in combat?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If so then kudos to you my dear friend. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even that I do noty play an ogre guardian.. I am convinced that they are the best guardians you can have.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>that just my $.02</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sazzabi8]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zodian wrote:<div> </div> <div>The diference between the ogres agility and iskar is 15 vs 22+3(racial) = 10 points However the hps nakid (no gear at all) is about 250-300 with all the racial traits focused on STa and Health. Do you think 10 more agilty will allow you to filter 250 hps of damage in combat?</div> <hr></blockquote>I dont tank naked . I am really only concerned about what my hps, avoidance, mitigation, resists are at when I am in a group on a raid. When I have 440sta and an Ogre has 452sta with the same gear and buffs that is a difference of 54 hps (12x4.5). Racial sta difference is not a big deal. Agi isn't either with stats over 400, the gap is even smaller. If you want to argue any reason Ogres are better the 3% hps trait would be a much better one. I might agree with you there. Yes I think 10agi will avoid more than 250hps of damage over a 5-10 min  fight against an epic mob. Were arn't using CH here, efficiency is king. Say for example you are taking 500dps (low estimate on a raid mob). Over a 5 min fight that is 500x60x5=150,000dmg. Multiply that by the % difference 10agi makes which is about 0.4% avoidance and that equals 600hps avoided over 5 mins. Those were very conservative estimates too. A higher dps mob and/or longer fight and it would be considerabley more damage avoided. </span><div></div>

[Hirski1]

<P>Tuna i am indrest what is your BASE (STA) when you are full unbuffed+unweared armors and other stuff.</P> <P> </P> <P>Thank you.</P>

[TunaBoo]

Effeciency does not matter. dodging 1 hit per 10 mins saves 1 heal.. my healers never run out of power. If I die its from a mad damage streak. naked naked i am 45 str 23 agi 49 sta 15 int 15 wis 3391 hp 1117 power <div></div>

[Hirski1]

<P>thank you Tuna,</P> <P>Well your Base stats looks nice balanced.</P> <P> </P> <P>Here is my toon Bases (Human race)</P> <P>35 STR</P> <P>28 AGI</P> <P>44 STA  HP3225 (73.3x44=3.2k)</P> <P>Pow 1XXX (i am on work so i dont rember right now)</P> <P> </P> <P>My Base sta is about 10-16 points higher than most human Guards(Runnyeye server) thats why i have very close same base sta like most Ogres.</P> <P>I am realiaze higher base sta modifer total HP so thats why i build my toon diferent style than most does.</P> <DIV> </DIV>

[Sazzabi8]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:Effeciency does not matter. dodging 1 hit per 10 mins saves 1 heal.. my healers never run out of power. If I die its from a mad damage streak. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Not everyone is so fortunate that their healers never run out of power. Mine get low on certain mobs when we don't have great power regen buffers online. I havn't died from a mad damage streak in a long time. If efficiency didn't matter at all you could tank everything in the game with 0% avoidance</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Sazzabi8 on <span class=date_text>07-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:49 AM</span>

[TunaBoo]

Within reason my friend.. im talking 1 hit per 50 or 1 hit per 200 that a little more agi helps on. Most of my healers never break 90% power with master breeze. Usually got a wizzard on duty if feeds are needed. /loves his healers <div></div>

[Sazzabi8]

<span><blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:Within reason my friend.. im talking 1 hit per 50 or 1 hit per 200 that a little more agi helps on <div></div><hr></blockquote>That could be the one that kills ya <span>:smileywink:</span></span><div></div>

[TunaBoo]

It could be, but having more hitpoints means it wont kill you no matter what ;P <div></div>

[davidro]

<DIV>What about Troll's? The base stats are very nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>str: 25</DIV> <DIV>agi: 18</DIV> <DIV>sta: 30</DIV> <DIV>int: 10</DIV> <DIV>wis: 17</DIV>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> davidrone wrote:<BR> <DIV>What about Troll's? The base stats are very nice.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>str: 25</DIV> <DIV>agi: 18</DIV> <DIV>sta: 30</DIV> <DIV>int: 10</DIV> <DIV>wis: 17</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Trolls  lack the defensive buffs. For some reason they didnt give it to them.   As of right now, best race for a guard is ogre, hands down.  After these combat changes, who knows? Defense is getting nerfed  Prolly be a high agility/high wisdom halfing or some crap...   And ogres be the best race for a scout class, heh..

[Mig]

<blockquote><hr>TunaBoo wrote:Effeciency does not matter. dodging 1 hit per 10 mins saves 1 heal.. my healers never run out of power. If I die its from a mad damage streak. naked naked i am 45 str 23 agi 49 sta 15 int 15 wis 3391 hp 1117 power <div></div><hr></blockquote>One of the main points of the combat revamp is that you will get hit more but for less. Massive damage spikes are something that will probbly be much rarer. So an ogre who has 200 or 300 more hit points than, lets say a human or half elf will be a more inefficient to heal over a longer fight. For arguements sake lets consider two tanks, one who is an ogre, and one who is a elf. Lets say that the elf dodges 1% better than an ogre, but the ogre has 5% more hitpoints. Lets say their hit point totals are 8400 for the ogre, while the elf has 8000. Over a fight where a mob dishes out 100,000 damage, the elf beats the ogre for dmg taken by 600hp, and in effect has more hitpoints. If you think that it's not that big a deal, well your right. With the same gear and skill two guardians will perform very much the same. One could even make the arguement that power is more important than hit points...can't taunt when your out of power. And I lose power alot faster than I lose hit points.

[Zodi]

<P>Good post Rafael:</P> <P>Here is my question where do you guys get this information about possible revamps and combat modes revised. I have researched the test server notes without no luck. </P> <P>Can someone please point me in the right direction</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks</P> <P> </P>

[TunaBoo]

But.. stuns exist.. and huge spells exist (hail ice commet and friends). Times will happen when your troub is dead, and ice commet hits you for a lot. Need hp to suck it up. Also times will happen when many healers are stunned/stifled/out of range... the extra hit points are a buffer to stay alive. We will see how much wis actually does, I am a little doubtful... with 6k resists spells dont do much already.. so will wis stack on top and make spells do 10 damage? Or will resists do less ? Little too early to say how agi and wis will work, so best thing I can do is talk about now <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[sylvo]

Its said before but ill repeat it anyway, everytime the topic of what makes the best "tank" comes up - the answer each and everytime sits between the chair and the keyboard. If the question is who has the most hp, then equal gear assuming then everyone knows to pick your ogre/troll/barb/dwarf It doesnt matter if you pick a gnome a human or an ogre, if you are a guardian you have the skills at your disposal to tank effectively every mob out there. I play a DE guardian, I have more HP's than 95% of guardians I come across, whether they are oger/troll/barb , I have no problems tanking at all and my healer for single group stuff prefers me over any other tanks hes had. Point being pick which race you like - it REALLY doesnt matter. So who makes the best tank ? The guy behind the keyboard. Farhane. <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Ah but with identical skills and gear, race will prevail. You can say nascar is 100% about the driver.. but with two amazing drivers, you really need the better tuned car.  Very misleading statement to say the only thing that matters is the player. <div></div>

[sylvo]

No offence but poor analagy, Nascar would be the equivalent of PVP, this game is currently PvE. My point was that if you are a guardian you have the facilities at your disposal to tank anything around. So to the original question: Does race really matter at the high end? Surely the answer is no ? Farhane <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Surely the answer is yes. Anything you can do to be better, is one more step towards winning. You can go on for three days about how the game is easy so might as well be a gnome tank, but you are an idiot. <div></div>

[Nazo]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sylvore wrote:<BR>No offence but poor analagy,<BR><BR>Nascar would be the equivalent of PVP, this game is currently PvE. My point was that if you are a guardian you have the facilities at your disposal to tank anything around. So to the original question: Does race really matter at the high end? Surely the answer is no ?<BR><BR>Farhane<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>As level cap is raised, as equipment stats increase more and more in comparison to our IoR stats yes race won't mean a thing.

[Roukl]

<DIV>I play a woodelf Guardian, and I have to go with the camp that say Race means sweet F A when all is said and done. A few hps arent gonna mean squat with so many variables in combat. Each race is within a few hps, thos with less hps have better avoidance or mitigation , which guess what ultimately sum out to hps as u get hit less.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The nail was hit on the head what makes the best Guardian ? The guy at the wheel , nothing else will help with any significance. None of the answers are wrong perse its really the wrong question. So ogre has more hps,  little more (str&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> power . Lower avoidance take more dmg.  As things stand testing fighting with just weapons avoidance > hps > mitigation. Try it out.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Try asking what guardian has the most hps or best mitigation or avoidance you will most likely get more folks agree on an answer.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Rouklav on <span class=date_text>07-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:02 AM</span>

[MrDiz]

Ask yourself why you play the game. When people say "all things being equal which race is the uberest..." my answer is this: All things are not equal and never will be. The most 'uber' race for a guardian is the race that you enjoy playing the most and inspires you to play well.

[DeadlyNe]

<P>Tuna says</P> <P>Ah but with identical skills and gear, race will prevail. You can say nascar is 100% about the driver.. but with two amazing drivers, you really need the better tuned car.  Very misleading statement to say the only thing that matters is the player.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yes a Tuned Car would make a dif but the strongest answer would be the Pit Crew, how fast they can fuel how fast they can change the tires, meaning, how fast can your healers heal how fast can your dps take down the mob. A great Tank is bassed off a Great Crew.</P> <P>Taurik   (lvl 50 guard Lavastorm)</P>

[TunaBoo]

Yes but 2 tanks with identical crew and gear.. the one with a better race still is better ;P <div></div>

[DeadlyNe]

That is true so ill have to say go HALF ELFS, i looked at my char naked and im only 6 less in str, 180 hps behind you, but im 18 more agi than you. So that being said <DIV>my 18 more agi dodges about 180 hps in a battle meaning we are equal.</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Not really cuz where I may get hit down to 1 hp, you will be dead.. HPs save bad hit streaks.. agi is just roll the dice and hope. <div></div>

[DeadlyNe]

But durning the battle i might dodge more and you might get hit more meaning that will equal out the hitpoints and in could be might have more Hitpoints b/c i dodged more.

[TunaBoo]

If you are dead it doesn't matter <div></div>

[DeadlyNe]

<P>I'll put it in easy turmers for you   Tuna - 500 hp      Me - 420 hp (remember i have more agi)</P> <P>Target hits Tuna for 100  = 400</P> <P>Target hits Me for 100  =  320</P> <P>Target hits Tuna for 100  =  300</P> <P>Target misses Me = 320</P> <P>Target misses Tuna = 300</P> <P>Target hits Me for 100 = 220</P> <P>Target hits Tuna for 100 = 200</P> <P>Target misses Me = 220</P> <P>Target misses Tuna = 200</P> <P>Target hits Me for 100 = 120</P> <P>Target hits Tuna for 198563258</P> <P>meaning  Half Elfs Rule    lol</P> <P>Target hits me for 119 = 1</P> <P>Tuna 0    Me 1</P> <P> </P> <P>Ill be here all week</P> <P> </P>

[Wabit]

<P>all things being equal, which they can't be because of char traits...  +5 defence, 3% more HP, ect...</P> <P>now being naked is all fine and good, but with the caps to agi, the more sta wins cause even at 400 sta it seems to be 4.4 hp per sta...  even naked 18 agi is like 5% avoid tops???</P> <P>the lowest i've ever been on HP in a raid is 12...  i'm a barb, so the ogre woulda had a few more a human would be dead...  was against the twins in firemyst, got nuked hard all at once...  icecomet and a nil, the mage add the had hit me for something too...  i went from 100% health to 0% in like 2 secs...  was no melee hits just pure cold and poison damage...</P> <P>so you'll not convince me that race does not matter...</P> <P>Wabit</P>

[TunaBoo]

Sorry doesn't work like that. At point X in the fight.. the mob does a combo in < 1 second 6000 crit 5000 WoF both hit either of us, as your avoid didn't get lucky. Now I have 11,100 hp, you have 10,600 hp. Guess who is dead? <div></div>

[Zodi]

<P>At this moment I am working in two types of guardian. Yes call me idiot but I have a level 37 human guardian and a level 23 ogre. Hopefully I will be able to take them both to level 50 and gear them almost very much alike. Then lets see what happens.</P> <P>If you ask me right now my human tanks better than my ogre does. Oh wait my human has over 14 levels my ogre. (just kidding)</P> <P>I am really interrested into finding out the actual answer to this question myself. Since I am a darn min maxer</P> <P>Thank you</P> <P>Avathos -- Thanos</P> <P>Crushbone</P>

[Ratty31]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Sorry doesn't work like that. At point X in the fight.. the mob does a combo in < 1 second<BR><BR>6000 crit<BR>5000 WoF<BR><BR>both hit either of us, as your avoid didn't get lucky.<BR><BR>Now I have 11,100 hp, you have 10,600 hp.<BR><BR>Guess who is dead?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Him first then you then both of your raids.

[Slades]

<DIV><FONT color=#3300cc size=4>Think about this.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc size=4>3%  yeah not much at 50...but, they said EQ2 has been made for player characters to go to level 200.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc size=4></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#3300cc size=4>Every time they raise the level cap...the gap gets bigger.  Ogres and Dwarfs own all races with +3% hp, end of story.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[sylvo]

Even if an ogre dwarf has 20% more hp than any other class, If you can kill the same mobs and complete the same encounters (which is as it stands currently) then race DOESNT matter. You can throw up as many hypothetical ifs and whats blah blah blah. The end result is still the same. If you are interested in absolute maxing or want to be a heavy PVP'er then YES it will matter to some extent. But then the racial effects balance each other out where the larger classes have more hp's the smaller ones have better agi. *shrug*. When it comes to race in this game there is no absolute right and wrong answer. Its not as cut and dry as it was in EQL. Play what you enjoy. Farhane United Kingdoms Guk Server. <div></div>

[Airog]

How is it that Ogres/Dwarves have +3% HP over other Guards?

[Landiin]

<P>What a dumb debate, 200 hp don't really mean that much, yea if things go wrong it might save you but vs mobs that hit for 800+ a pop its not going to  help. If your raid/group can't keep you at 50% or more you don't need to be tanking or you have healers slacking. Play what makes you happy, its the group>skill>gear>..>race of the tank that matters in the end.</P>

[TunaBoo]

200 hp does matter. People spend months farming gear for 10 more ac or 5 more of a stat. Every little bits add up. 200 hp here, 200 hp there.. it all adds up. <div></div>

[Chaksis]

<DIV>you'll totaly failed, sadly <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>the best raid tank is a G N O M E )</DIV>

[laddich]

<DIV>Although gnomes could make excellent raid tanks, who would be able to see them?:smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[MillsFairchild]

<span><blockquote><hr>laddich wrote:<div>Although gnomes could make excellent raid tanks, who would be able to see them?:smileyvery-happy:</div><hr></blockquote>That's exactly why I always use my burning hand when playing my gnome zerker.  So the rest of my group can actually SEE me.  heh.</span><div></div>

[Wintersborn]

<P>Greetings Guardians.</P> <P>I have no interest in tanking raid mobs ATM. I am only interested in making the best Solo melee class/race now.</P> <P>So has anyone made a Ratonga Guardian or any maxed Plate Mitigation with Agillity Avoidance race/class?</P> <P>If so please post your solo results?</P> <P> </P> <P>Thanks.</P>

[Wintersborn]

<P>I fear that the low Str. will make for too low of a power pool and the higher Avoidance will not compensate for the lower DPS?</P> <P>Also anyone have any input on Agillity working better with Dual Wield for better DPS to compinsate for low Str.?</P> <P>I have had good results using a Str. based Assassin for solo play but not the other way around.</P> <P>Any feedback would be great.</P> <P>Im kinda liking the idea of a Ratongan Berzerker for RP reasons : )</P>

[TunaBoo]

guard dps sucks soloing IMHO.. i would go any class before guard to solo. <div></div>

[Wintersborn]

<P>Strait melee DPS is that low on the Warrior Guard/Beserk lines compaired to Scout melee DPS?</P> <P> </P>

[davidro]

<DIV>You can't compare a Guardian's DPS with a Berzerker.</DIV>