How are EQ2's guardians as "Shieldmasters"?

[Druidbl]

<DIV>Greets!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just wandered back to EQ2 again after a hiatus (why did I leave? I love this game)... Anyways, about to decide what type of Warrior I'm going to go with, a 2H axer (Zerker probably?) or a "Shieldmaster".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyone who's played DAOC (hold the attack comments please <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) will recognize that title- basically I'm looking to find out how defensive the EQ2 Guardians are. In DAOC a Shieldmaster would not get hit about 75 percent of the time due to blocks, dodges, and parries.  How are Guardians in here as far as their defense goes? Is it a matter of getting hit often but just reducing damage (i.e. WoW) or more like DAOC's miss-miss-miss-hit type?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lastly, as a predominately solo player, would you suggest an axe-and-shield Guardian, or a 2h axe zerker? (Yes, it has to be an axe with this warrior I'm making- hehe.)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance!</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Guardians maintank raids.. they have the most HP and best defense and take hits better then anyone else. Anyone telling you otherwise isn't informed. <div></div>

[Juk]

Yes we do avoid alot of attacks as the game is now, usually about 50-90% of attacks. we allso mitigate 60-80% of damage but monsters hit quite hard anyways. Soe is planning on changing it so we avoid only about 30% of attacks but they will make mobs hit for less damage. as for soloing now.. guardian is better for soloing tough mobs, berserkers kill faster but guardians avoid alot more. <div></div>

[Nazo]

<P>What you hear about the Guardians at the moment will be changed by the upcoming combat revamp. Guardian is one of the classes that will probably be nerfed the hardest. Noone yet knows how we will end up on the "Defensive" scale. </P> <P>You can solo with Guardian of course but after a while it gets a bit frustrating DPS wise :smileyvery-happy:</P> <p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:45 AM</span>

[Xaviou]

they have said guardians will still be the dominant tank.  apparently gage has suceeded in his quest to get FD, fear, DPS, healing, and to-par tanking in one package. why do we keep letting FoH [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] influence the games we play? <div></div>

[Friskc]

<P>Zerker here, wanna raid tank? go gaurdian. (period) seeing a zerker is better put into puting out the dps.and off tanking adds, although you will be judged with the quickness on skill with a gaurd simply on your aggro control .... its way more of a work of art with a gaurdian.</P> <P>Zerkin</P> <P> </P>

[Druidbl]

<P>Thanks for the feedback, I'll mull it over more but if the combat revamp is going to modify them to more of a "get hit more, mitigate the damage" mode as opposed to "you can't hit me" mode I might give Zerker a go...   My thing with Shieldmasters is how fun they are when you have 3 things on you and you're blocking, parrying, dodging constantly... if something can't hit you you can't get hurt <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I have a lower level warrior in WoW and I switched him away from protection there because you're constantly hit, but just mitigating the damage, and I didn't like the way that felt.</P> <P>For now though I'll keep these thoughts in mind and keep my ear to the ground on the revamp... I have time before I need to choose yet!</P> <P>Thanks again!</P> <P>Druidblue</P>

[TunaBoo]

If for some odd reason it makes you hobby to dodge attacks a lot, then go monk.. but you will tank much worse then a guardian.. will tank crappy like gage. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> XaviousA wrote:<BR>they have said guardians will still be the dominant tank. <BR><BR> apparently gage has suceeded in his quest to get FD, fear, DPS, healing, and to-par tanking in one package. why do we keep letting FoH [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] influence the games we play?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LoL.</P> <P>For one, I don't have fear.  For two, three other classes have FD.  For three, I could care less about my DPS, said that a few times (best of the fighter tree is good enough for me, because I can do all 3 dmg types <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />).  Fourth, my heal is on a 5 min timer, awesome!  Last but not least, I doubt we'll ever be on par tanking, considering you are the most defensive fighter.  Then again you've been avoiding like a monk since release with your higher HP and mitigation, so who knows how your class is really supposed to act.</P> <P>Finally:  I joined Fires of Heaven on May 12th, not even two months ago yet.  I got invited to the Community Summit unguilded with hardly any raid experience.  So kindly just shush it about me, or my tag being the reason your broken class is getting fixed.</P> <P>Thanks.<BR></P>

[ugl]

<P>I am going to have to agree with a gage here.</P> <P>He still sucks as always, but got in to  fanfaire and FOH on his own merits.  (That being, a 1000+ board troll and the whiniest monk the game has seen yet.)</P> <P>However the FOH on eq2 is doubtfully even the same guild as FOH on eq1.  Its the name only.  I believe most of FOH went to wow.  From what I gather, they are probably the #3 or #4  guild on their server, and dont even rank in terms of gamewide.   </P> <P>But, true, the devs still love them.</P> <DIV>/shrug</DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Yah I just looked at gage's gear and out level 45 2nd string alts have better :/   <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> TunaBoo wrote:<BR>Yah I just looked at gage's gear and out level 45 2nd string alts have better :/   <BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>And?</P> <P>If I wanted to have the best gear I would've joined NPU long ago.</P> <P>I don't play the game for loot Tuna.  </P> <P>Besides, there is always someone with better <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>You don't have a lvl 45 monk or bruiser anyway :o<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-04-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:30 PM</span>

[SenorPhr]

<div></div>FoH tagged you because you fit their style... whiny, insufferable, egomaniacs whsoe influence is slowly... thank god... being ratcheted down to where it needs to be: ignored petitions like the rest of us. And I'm sure you've heard of Bruisers, right? Or did you neglect to think of what changes for *your* class might do to the game overall? I thought not. If we asked Gage to see past his own ego, he'd need the Hubble. As for him getting invited to Fan Faire or whatever... gratz, your [Removed for Content] won the highschool popularity contest for EQ2. I'm sure your woman is prou <div></div><p>Message Edited by SenorPhrog on <span class=date_text>07-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:19 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SenorPhrog wrote:<BR> FoH tagged you because you fit their style... whiny, insufferable, egomaniacs whsoe influence is slowly... thank god... being ratcheted down to where it needs to be: ignored petitions like the rest of us.<BR><BR>And I'm sure you've heard of Bruisers, right? Or did you neglect to think of what changes for *your* class might do to the game overall? I thought not. If we asked Gage to see past his own ego, he'd need the Hubble. As for him getting invited to Fan Faire or whatever... gratz, your [Removed for Content] won the highschool popularity contest for EQ2. I'm sure your woman is prou<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Posts like this make me smile.  <BR></P>

[yzyh]

You seems to look to be a guardian.

[yzyh]

<P>Berzeker will be the most nerfed class of the fighter type (wel if you forgot brawler big DPS nerf)</P> <P>berzeker are in the top DPS class ATM while they are supose to be tow to toe with the SK. (SoE stated this. not me)</P> <DIV>But it is also cummon sence. They can take hit betther then any other class exept guardian (but the difference is  tiny). They outdamage SK. They have best tank aggro in game. Their HP buff is betther then paladin one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>SoE stated that Guardian + paladin will have the lowest DPS in this game exept the priests class.</DIV> <DIV>paladin do have low dps bcuz they can heal and support any group or raid so well.</DIV> <DIV>Guardian have low DPS bcuz they have the tanker of this game (suposed to be )</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a zerker would be betther tank then a guardian and having a betther DPS. Why in the world of norath we would need a guardian ?</DIV>

[Wasuna]

Haven't seen Gage post here much lately. Looks like he's bored again. Ignore anything he has to say unless he takes up the offer I made to him MONTHS ago. Full player made gear every 10 levels, all App 4's or Adept 1's if not to expensive and 50 g for him to make and play a Guardian on my server. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Parses and talking to Guardians don't mean crap. If Gage wants to say anything that I'll even think about maybe reading then he can make a Guardian and see how they are before he spouts off. </DIV>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>He will never do that, he is to egocentric to do so and try to see things form the other side of the bat! he just wants to feel ubah and what he said about avoidance my gaurd can only get 68% avoidance on his own! can buff to 100 with a warden and other group buffs but so can a monk! but he can prolly get to 80/90% wihtout help so how is this unfair......i am clueless !</P> <P>Anyways gage all the monks and bruisers i know on my server have said they wanna go the DPS road and not the tank road! Apparently there are only a few who wanna have mroe defense to tank. But then again your taunts stink i never had a monk or bruiser (and i knew they had skills) that was able to hold agroe of my coercer if i went all out wiht all dps my weakass gimped coercer can possibly put out...</P> <P>So even if ya were to gain more avoidance or mitgation or defense opr parry or whatever way they gonna imply to make yer class better tanks if ya cant hold agroe yer still a bad tank with bad DPS so for all i think this is a bad change for you and especially for yer monk/bruiser player companions on several servers.</P> <P>Now if it turns out the way i predict here i DO NOT WANT A PEEP OUT OF YOU, saying [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] whine whine we are not invited to raids anymroe cause we arent usefull at all we cant be tanks cause cant hold agroe of that [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] warlock who is barely doing damage and with a guard tnaking who can hold agroe but will get hit more and needs more healing you wont be usefull cause yer DPS is gonna suck. JUST DONT!</P> <P>now for the healing on a 5 min timer who cares about the timer guards dont have it so its unique to yer class the classes are not balanced i will give ya that so guards zerkers SK's and monks cant be compared they are different in every sense of the word! </P> <P>Ok im done here i hope you will think b4 ya respond if ya even will respond (ya dont have too either )</P> <P>take care!</P> <P>PS: i love my guardian and i owe a lotta skills i have to tuna so dont badmouth him!</P>

[Rah]

<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Tuna shame on you for feeding the troll!</P> <P>as a side note I voted for Gage for Prom Queen during the Fan Faire!</P></FONT></DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Ha ha, you guys continue to make me laugh and smile.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:<BR> <P>He will never do that, he is to egocentric to do so and try to see things form the other side of the bat! he just wants to feel ubah and what he said about avoidance my gaurd can only get 68% avoidance on his own! can buff to 100 with a warden and other group buffs but so can a monk! but he can prolly get to 80/90% wihtout help so how is this unfair......i am clueless ! <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You, clueless?  With Tunaboo as a mentor, omg no way! :o</P> <P>But here, let me explain:</P> <P>Guardians are the most defensive subclass, and their defense is based on mitigation.  The two warrior subclasses have the best mitigation in the game at the moment, meaning when they get hit, they get hit for less than any of the other classes in the game, including the 4 other fighter subclasses.</P> <P>Now, there are two defensive systems in place in this game:  mitigation and avoidance.  There is supposed to be a division between the avoidance tanks and the mitigation tanks, where trade offs are made because of the different styles of defense, to ensure that neither is gimped or over powered.</P> <P>Currently though, there are numerous things in this game which are broken, that result in the guardian subclass being overpowered when it comes to defensive skills.</P> <P>The main culprit to this problem is twofold:  Buff stacking and +defense upping a toons avoidance.</P> <P>Since I've already stated that the guardian is the most defensive subclass with the most mitigation, its easy to see that all of their defensive buffs up their avoidance (which, as a means of primary defense should be left to the monks/bruisers).</P> <P>So you have this huge, plate wearing, car door shield having tank using AVOIDANCE as their primary defense.</P> <P>So since guardians are avoiding on par or better than monks/bruisers, and benefiting from higher HP and more mitigation, we are stuck in a spot where there is no reason to pick anyone but a guardian for MTing.</P> <P>This is both broken, and overpowered.</P> <P>All of these issues were voiced at the CS and FF, and all of them are being addressed.  Mainly the way the +defense and buff stacking works, plus an added emphasis on monks/bruisers being avoidance tanks, and guardians/zerkers/pallys/sks being primarily mitigation tanks.</P> <P>So you'll see, after the cc hits test, guardians more along the lines of 75~80% mitigation and 25% avoidance <EM>buffed.</EM>  Whereas monks/bruisers will be on the opposite end of that spectrum.</P> <P>That is of course assuming that they can code avoidance for monks/bruisers that isn't overpowering, as it was in January.  I talked to MG in depth at FF about what would happen if avoidance can't be controlled for our subclasses, and he said that would be dealt with while the CC is being tested.</P> <P>So to summarize:</P> <P>Most mitigation, most HP, most avoidance = broken and overpowered.</P> <P>You're a guardian, not a monk, so why are you tanking with avoidance <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:37 AM</span>

[SkarlSpeedbu]

Oh this is good stuff!  /eats popcorn. 

[Wasuna]

<DIV>I almost read some of Gages post but I lost all desire before I started. Play a Guardian then talk about a Guardian. I don't post on the monk forum becasue I don't know crap about monks.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>I don't have to play the class to know about it.  Sure I would know more about it if I did, but I'm still quite versed in a lot of the basics of the guardian class, especially where gameplay balance comes in.</P> <P>Besides, if I'm wrong, I'm sure one of my guildies who actually plays a guardian can come and let me know, or one of you can.</P> <P>You can educate me in all things guardian.  That's what this forum is for, right?</P>

[Druidbl]

<DIV>:smileysurprised:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Eep!</DIV> <DIV>I've created a beast-thread with a simple question!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still haven't made up my mind- all I know is that my warrior (in all MMGSs) is always named the same, always looks roughly the same, and I always play him one of two ways: Either a 2H axe "smack ya down" type, or as the ultimate defensive warrior. (I don't use the term "tank", it's silly to bring that terminology into a fantasy setting to me, but then again, I don't use most of the slang terms and abbreviations used online!)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, it sounds to me like right now Guardians avoid most attacks through blocks, parries, etc. and then mitigate the rest of the damage through armour.  This works much like DAOCs shieldmasters, and is to me the most fun way to play a fighter. Nothing is more entertaining than having 5 mobs on you, and watching the combat scroll by "You block. You parry. You dodge. You block. You block. You're hit for 20. You block. You block."  I love long fights, so if I'm whittling away for 10 minutes killing things that's great.  Now on the other hand, if this change is going to remove that avoidance from Guardians and focus more on mitigation, that will work more like WoW's protection line.  "You're hit for 15. You're hit for 12. You're hit for 8."  And so on. You're not getting hit for the full 20, but you're reducing all the hits.  That won't work well for me, as a solo player (99 percent of the time) I don't have the heal available to last again multiple opponents whittling me down like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is, if I'm understanding it right. With that in mind, I'll probably go Berserker 2H axe.  Big hits, big weapon, etc. etc.  One question on that- early in game you see quite a few options for 1H axes, but there's only seemingly one (or a couple) of 2h axes about.  Are there some cool looking 2 handers about later in game? Again, this char's always an axe wielder, so any other weapons are a moot point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>One other reason I might go Berserker I guess, is it sounds like much of the group dynamic is focused on Guardians to do less fighting and more taunting... I already get very uncomfortable in groups (people are way to serious about dying and such, it's a game!) so I'll probably bypass the responsibility and just go in as "one who hits things with his big axe".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Whatever's most fun- this is only entertainment, after all!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks for the feedback, where it is in this thread. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[SmakenDah]

<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">SOE really needs to define each Fighter subclasses place in the tanking scheme (note I said tanking scheme not role as a utility fighter, or DPS fighter) and ensure that they can monopolize that type of tank requirement. This means looking at the mechanics for calculating avoidance, mitigation and what buffs increase what. Then they'd need to add in or adjust content to challenge each one of these defined roles specifically. They need to equip each subclass with an appropriate ability that enables them to monopolize an area of tanking (skill revamp - yes, I know this is coming). They would need to revisit the damage being dealt by various mobs so as not to force all priests on to healing one tank (again, maybe apply the same to priests and have them more capable of dealing with various damage types?) That doesn't mean make the equation as simple as having one main tank, it means have mobs that can only be tanked by a specific Figther subclass. You can combine multiple mobs that require multiple tank types in the same encounter. This is VERY important to do in order to allow multiple tanks on a raid to be viable and to keep things spread out. You might not want this on every encounter or to have different needs every encounter (i.e. need for multiple Guardians in one encounter or the need for one Berserker and one Monk). Solo mobs = heh. Heroic mobs = generic Fighter subclass suitable. Epic mobs = you need a specific tank type. This means if a Berserker is suppose to be used against creatures that do damage based on mental resists they should dominate this area of resists through their own means. I mean dominate, not just have high numbers in it that can be achieved by other means such as potions/buffs from other classes. An example might be immunity to charm when they are berserk. This would make them invaluable against creatures that try to charm opponents on their hate list. If a SK is supposed to be all about evilness and darkness then they might have some additional immunities to it themselves - perhaps they're immune to Harm Touch or even Death touches while a given buff is one (unholy aura or what not). This makes them impossible to replace when dealing with creatures that Harm Touch. A monk might become immune to Riposte damage when using some sort of evasive buff - this would be ideal for encounters that have high riposte damage. Something to that effect. Really, this is what SOE said they would have - a place for each Fighter to be a viable tank, unfortunately the community found a way to ensure that there was only ONE tank type (but I'm not faulting the community for this) Enough rambling from me, time to go home. </font><div></div>

[Juk]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<div></div> <p>You're a guardian, not a monk, so why are you tanking with avoidance <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class="date_text">07-06-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:37 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> cos i carry a 6 feet toilet door with me (shield=block, block=avoidance) and i have 100 more agility then you? in every game it is like this and should be like this in eq2. so what if i use platemails? that should make me unable to avoid anything? my character allso has 50 str more then your, poor gage was so week geek that he cant carry platemails on him <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  he tried them on and he couldnt move at all(there he got the idea that platetanks cant avoid) i allso know that min/max guilds will never allow anything else then guardian tank, no matter how much gage or jezekiel whine in the forums. i for one know that even if soe made mistake and monks tanked better then guardian our guild would still use guardian as a tank cos our monks are DPS and they dont want to tank. they are allso very grateful to gage that their dps will be dropped and they will be made worst raid characters. luckily raids are allways doable with less then 24 players so there is still place for those monks too, just not for monks like gage who cry when not allowed to tank <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[blueduckie]

<P>To one of the pevious poster making mobs only tankable by one type isnt going to happen unless they script it where it MUST be tanked by that class like only that class taunts work on that mob which would be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] IMO. The only other way would be to implent a disc system where hard hitters need mitigated and fast hitters avoided. </P> <P>Gage you must be a socialist because is exactly what you are asking out of this game. To make everything even and the same. If guardians take 5 dps less than monk monks should do 5dps more and so on balancing every single angle of the game which is ridiculous on thinking that is utopia for a game.</P> <P>Why shouldnt guardians have the most hp is what they are based on along with mitigation however zerkers can match guardians in hp. Guardians dont avoid like mad just on there own. Raid mobs still hit guardians we can trivialize heroic mobs or lower lvl mobs but any class can also seen monks do the same thing. On a raid parry / blocking is personally where i avoid the most. However gage isnt even a +5 defense race but i bet he thinks that should do absolutely nothing to.</P> <P>My biggest complaint with Gage crusade of equality is you are comparing the lowest defensive fighter subclass to the highest. Is in no way balancing to make them the same. For any who dont know Gage crusade started when he had god mode from agi. Once it was nerfed he wanted god mode again. He will say thnigs to make you think he doenst but you are a fool to think any different. When a monk wants to be equal to a guardian on tanking by swapping avoidance / mitigation but take exact same dmg and then do more dps than the guardian. Get a grip on what gage is really saying. For a single person to agree with him they either are moronic or a monk that has guardian envy with out rerolling. No matter how they shift things on combat revamp if monks can take exact same dmg as a guardian but through avoidance instead of mitigation that is dumb for tanking and monks getting shafted still cause you will still be 1 rounded or mobs will hit so weak guardians will be taking 200-300 dmg hits with 80% mitigation Reactives out heal that. Guardians dont need to avoid and mitigate the best but we dont already. We boost avoidance from others and our mitigation buffs is what seperates us from other tanks. Monks set up in a mt group would out avoid a guardian as of current just your mitigation sucks that mob will burst its dps to highly on you. However you still get hit so does a Guardian we do not have god mode. It is how it should be for a release. The only changes possibly needed is scaling and buff stacking. However system seems fine IMO. People screaming bloody murder with out even seeing a expansion is to quick on the gun.</P> <P>Have seen this same crap happen in EQ1. You get a bunch of whiny people like Gage for classes feeling they know best. Devolpers listen to the loudest obnoxious [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] they can and shift game that way. It turned eq1 into crap. In Gates of Discord in eq1 they released the hardest raiding expansion eq1 had ever had and it was great for anyone liking a challenge. Then you get all these pansies just like gage who dont have god mode whining til is nerfed down and the next expansion is weak on raiding and the next a complete joke with 4 total raid mobs a high end guild could kill 3/4 with alts. If this is the path of eq2 that is sad. SoE needs to learn there lesson from eq1 and find people who are actually happy with the game for suggestions on how to make it better game because if you are happy with it you will push the game forward but if your whiny like Gage you want thnigs reduced nerfed and dumbied down to a unrealisitic equality. Stop pushing to dumby down the game to where it all is equal because it will only make it to hard for them to actually make raid content challenging and fun it will all be exact same mob with diff name diff type of adds and diff ae. Class set up should always be a big issue on raids. Certain classes being there should always make it easier and on a final boss mandatory. Farming the best gear should trivialize raid mobs and make them easier. What is the point in gear if it doesnt. I also wonder if any monk has reached full fabled and actually tried to tank Drakathor?</P>

[Ivellious]

My question is, how come when someone asks about the guardian class on the GAURDIAN forum it always turns into a monk vs guardian argument.  The poster said how are eq2's guardians as "shieldmasters"? this was his post and his arguement, if someone says something about you in 1 freaking sentenace just ignore them you don't have to join the conversation or start, be it unattentionally, but non the less start a flame sesion because it's really anoying.  Wait for combat changes before you compare classes, because your arguement before that in useless.

[Gaige]

<P>Ha Ha, I love you guys.</P> <P>I never said we should have awesome DPS and tank like a guardian by the way, but I'm curious as to why everyone thinks that.</P> <P>How about this:</P> <P>Right now you avoid as good or better than us, with more HP and a lot more mitigation.</P> <P>How about I give you the HP, and I avoid as good as you do, and get your mitigation.</P> <P>Would that be okay?</P>

[Juk]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<p>Ha Ha, I love you guys.</p> <p>I never said we should have awesome DPS and tank like a guardian by the way, but I'm curious as to why everyone thinks that.</p> <p>How about this:</p> <p>Right now you avoid as good or better than us, with more HP and a lot more mitigation.</p> <p>How about I give you the HP, and I avoid as good as you do, and get your mitigation.</p> <p>Would that be okay?</p> <hr></blockquote>no you havent said that. but seems to me jeze and you want to be able to tank toughest monster ingame. if lowest defense fighter was able to do that then it would be trivial for guardians.(even guardian shouldnt be able to do it either without other fighter assisting=buffing) i dont want to keep bugged defensestacking but i still want to keep some avoidance. atm it is about right imo(if not abusing warden and bard) 65% avoidance </span><span>and 60% mitigation</span><span> for guardian. (atm its about 70% avoid 55% miti) 75% avoidance </span><span>and 40% mitigation</span><span> for brawlers. 60% avoidance and 60% mitigation for crusaders. 65% avoidance and 55% mitigation for zerker. that makes it allmost same amount of total defense for every fighters but guardian. guardian dont have utility and has lowest dps thats why we deserve highest defense offcourse guardian is supposed to have most hp allso as we are only fighter that has no utility, we are just tanks.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<P>Guardians can do DPS, I've proved that already, as has Sigon.</P> <P>Guardians do have utility, although I'd admit that the protection line is broken atm.</P> <P>Also, guardians should max out at around 25~30% avoidance.</P> <P>There is no way your avoidance numbers should be so high, having the most HP and best mitigation in the game.</P> <P>Oh, and your scale is wrong anyway, zerkers/guardians have the exact same mitigation.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>07-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 AM</span>

[Juk]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<div></div> Oh, and your scale is wrong anyway, zerkers/guardians have the exact same mitigation. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class="date_text">07-07-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:02 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>i wasnt saying it is now that way, i know zerks have allmost same mitigation(guardian mitigation buff dont stack with anything) i meant thats how it should be. if you take avoidance of everything else the brawlers then no one else then brawlers can solo. allso if you make avoidance too low warriors get stunned too much and cannot taunt, after reactive heals stop making aggro for tank it will be impossible to keep aggro on encounters like zalak when tank is stunned 70-90% of time. even worse problem it is for crusaders cos their spells can get interrupted so easily, avoidance is needed there too. afaik only zerkers have taunts that can be used when stunned, correct me if i'm wrong. i know i can do dps, i have yet to be outdamaged by scout in raids where i'm not tanking. i'm not saying we should keep that dps.</span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Jukis on <span class=date_text>07-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 AM</span>

[gigantic]

Ohh no.  Say it isn't so.  I've seen this happen in every game I have played since the launch of eq1.  The guy with the loudest voice who wants his class to be the best at everything ruins the game for all.  You guys should just ban Gage now before he costs you 100000 subscriptions.:smileyvery-happy:

[Smear]

<P>Are you guys even LISTENING to Gage?</P> <P>He has *repeatably* said he doesn't want monks to be the best class.  He has *repeatably* said that if monks were the best, he'd argue that they should be toned down.  Gage has always posted in FAVOUR of balance, if you'd just take a few seconds to THINK about what he says.</P> <P>Heck, all he's saying now is that guardians have too much avoidance compared to a monk.  He's not saying Guardians should take MORE damage overall, but rather avoidance should be lowered while an INCREASE of mitigation is instated (following the combat changes).</P> <P>And you know what?  He's trying to do the same thing as EVERY SINGLE guardian on this forum.  You guys are worried that if monks become too strong, guardians won't be needed or wanted.  Gage is worried that if guardians are too strong, monks wont be needed or wanted.</P> <P>We all have something in common here.  On the Island of Refuge, we all picked FIGHTER.  Can't we resonate a little more understanding here and try to make the game better for EVERYONE?</P> <P>Just don't feel so threatened by Gage.  He understands that guardians will always be the most defensive tanks.  As a monk myself, I just want a role.  Since SOE has stated over and over and over and over and over again all Fighters are tanks,  why can't we have a little slice?</P>

[SmakenDah]

<span><blockquote><hr>blueduckie wrote:<p>To one of the pevious poster making mobs only tankable by one type isnt going to happen unless they script it where it MUST be tanked by that class like only that class taunts work on that mob which would be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] IMO. The only other way would be to implent a disc system where hard hitters need mitigated and fast hitters avoided.</p><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">Yup, that's what I meant about adjusting the content. They would need to adjust encounters accordingly, equip each Fighter subclass with a suitable countermeasure that makes it their job to deal with certain raid encounters. Gage, while I agree Guardians shouldn't have the best avoidance, I disagree with your range noted. Simply put, that % wouldn't even account for block, parry or the fact that the heavy armor/fridge door can completely avoid damage altogether. 25-30% is WAAAAY too low. I would say 40-50% (with 60% being the optimal with exotic gear/potions and ideal buff set up) while mitigation could easily reach 70-80% with the big gear, exotic potions bumping that up to about 90% at most. Additionally, reaching this ultimate level of defense should almost completely hose Guardian DPS - understand that this is only when a Guardian is in 'tank mode'. If you're a Guardian and not in 'tank mode' you would have reasonable DPS. I would put Monks in the range of 70-80% avoidance (90% with the ideal set up) with about 40-50% in mitigation. DPS wouldn't be affected as several as a Guardian in 'tank mode'.  Bruisers would differ in that they wouldn't have as much avoidance, but would have higher mitigation than a monk - it's just how I picture things. I still think each Fighter subclass should have a defined area that they excel at dealing with instead of have general roles assigned because you end up where we are now with the Guardian being the best tank in just about all situations. </font></span><div></div>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Smeared wrote:<BR> <P>Are you guys even LISTENING to Gage?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Yea, we been ;listening to his BS around here for 6 months.</FONT></P> <P>He has *repeatably* said he doesn't want monks to be the best class.  He has *repeatably* said that if monks were the best, he'd argue that they should be toned down.  Gage has always posted in FAVOUR of balance, if you'd just take a few seconds to THINK about what he says.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Gage changes his story to meet the times.  Gage is in favor of a super monk class.  Gage claims he doesnt want monks to have DPS now, but again, he flip flops.  He HAS argues on the forums that he does in fact want monks to keep superior DPS and tank as good as guardians.  He justified this by saying hs high DPS makes up for lack of taunting ability.  Gauge has never been for balance, gauge is for gauge.   He just blows alot of smoke and flip flops to make it try to seem like he is the "good guy".</FONT></P> <P>Heck, all he's saying now is that guardians have too much avoidance compared to a monk.  He's not saying Guardians should take MORE damage overall, but rather avoidance should be lowered while an INCREASE of mitigation is instated (following the combat changes).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Guardians with 100% avoidence still get the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] kicked out of them.   Same as every other fighter class.</FONT></P> <P>And you know what?  He's trying to do the same thing as EVERY SINGLE guardian on this forum.  You guys are worried that if monks become too strong, guardians won't be needed or wanted.  Gage is worried that if guardians are too strong, monks wont be needed or wanted.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Monks have never been not needed or wanted.  Gauge has continually lobbied for monks to be the super class.   He played them in Beta, knew they were overpowered, so he chose one when the game went live.  He never started his campaign for balance until the agility nerf.    Gauge gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] about balance.</FONT></P> <P>We all have something in common here.  On the Island of Refuge, we all picked FIGHTER.  Can't we resonate a little more understanding here and try to make the game better for EVERYONE?</P> <P>Just don't feel so threatened by Gage.  He understands that guardians will always be the most defensive tanks.  As a monk myself, I just want a role.  Since SOE has stated over and over and over and over and over again all Fighters are tanks,  why can't we have a little slice?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>A little slice of what?   Your now going to lose your DPS, and your still not going to tank epic mobs, as no matter what, guardians will still be the most defensive tank.  Congratulations, you just got your class gimped.  Thank gauge for that.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Its obvious your the one who doesnt know jack about gauge.  He a POS troll, always has been, always will be.   Sorry, but older forum members know him well enough.  You are the one who does not.   </FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gaige]

<P><3 Uglak.</P> <P>I just don't think 80% mit and 60% avoidance after the combat changes for Guardians is balanced.  They may change the way stun works, or something else, but /shrug I think 60% avoidance for the most defensive, best mitigation, highest HP fighter would still be unbalanced.</P> <P>As for wanting to be a super class, if I wanted that, I'd have chose a guardian.  You guys are the supermen around here <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Dart]

<DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>Here we go again.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>Gage~ Monks have higher base Avoidance than guards, its Only when you group a guard with the right folks that they reach 100% just like any freaking monk would as well, matter of fact with/without your avoidance buff you would still surpass a guarding in avoidance (I bet), in that same group.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>Secondly, you say Guards should have as low as 25% avoidance. I am shocked you even say this. Do you play the same game we all do? You do realize Game mechanics will not allow this. If you have ANY tank at 25% avoidance they will be stunned, stifled for the majority of the fight. SOE screwed the pooch on this a long time ago. Unless there are major game wide changes this will not change. No tank will survive with less than 50% avoidance (raw base), at bare minimum</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>Ya super man, hey gage barrow a friends guardian, go do a solo instance (Ark aside) and tell us how much like super man we are. For that ability to tank we must take a much longer time to kill anything. My Warlock can kill 10X faster than my guard, but when he gets hit it hurts 10X as much. So there is your trade off. Now lets chat about monks.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>They are in the middle, they are a hybrid, they are utility based with ability to perform other roles in a pinch. Tell me one SOE product where a Hybrid is designed to be an MT. Hybrid= utility and diversity, you have that. maybe your utility needs to be tweaked like our prot line. So in that context we are in the same boat, but you are hanging off the edge of the boat crying fowl. where most of us are simply playing the game. I don't hear all these complaints from the monks I know, for that matter I don't hear your same complaints lodged by many if any other monks on these boards. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>Just the mere fact that you troll our boards tells me one thing</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>Guardian envy? </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>We are meat shields, that's it. If that's what you wanted, then this was your second mistake by choosing to play a Monk.</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=674394017-07072005>You made the mistake by setting your expectations too high when you decided to play EQ2. For that matter I don't think any class would make you happy (IMHO). </SPAN></FONT></DIV></DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV>I wasn't trolling your boards, I just noticed through my other searching that Tuna thought well enough to insult me (twice) in this thread, which is his subtle way of saying he wants me to come post <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sure, we have about 10~20% more avoidance unbuffed than you, but you can get to 100% mit / 100% avoid and we, can not.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Therefore if the highest mit class can get 100% avoidance, but the highest avoidance class can't get 100% mit, its broken <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Dart]

<DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005>No gage the system is broken, the avoidance buff stacking will work on Monks as well as Guards as well as Berserkers, Palys, ect.... Just because we host the highest MIT does not mean 'Guardians' are broken, it means the game mechanics are flawed, with regards to buff stacking. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005>So when they make these huge sweeping changes and you still cant tank ^^^ like a guardian, will you still strive to have the guardian class knocked down? What is your utopia? And let me say this.... if you say " I Want to tank ^^^ as good as a guardian", then I will rebuttal and say then lose your invis, mend, DPS, FD, go back to level one and level up that way. and walla, guess what you are a guardian in light armor. So why not just play a guardian?</SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005><FONT face=Verdana>I hear you say your utility is blahzay... Well then level 1 to 50 without your utility and all you do is act as a meat shield, then come back and discuss how crapptastic your utility is.</FONT></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005>Other wise, all you are asking for is to have your monk transformed into a guardian. I still cannot fathom as to why you haven't come to this conclusion yet, everything you want is what a guardian does. We have 0 to no utility our DPS is second worst in game next to Healers. Our only utility is a prot line that is 99% of the time useless. </SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=976513318-07072005>So what is it you want gage? To just come here and ruffle feathers? BTW [Removed for Content] did you have to come to permafrost /sigh</SPAN></FONT></DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Your utility is broken, but your DPS is far from second worse in the game <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>As for our utility, I like it all, although invis is broken at the moment and doesn't upgrade and is worthless in t4/t5.</P> <P>What do I want?  To play my class as intended by the designers, that's what I want.</P>

[Mig]

Things change. This isn't beta anymore.Shouldn't of believed the hype. Maybe if you try harder you'll tank as well as a guardian. In theory, every tank out there can tank epics, they just have to have the skill and motivation. There's plenty of other content out there for you.Just because the content is there doesn't mean everyone should have the automatic ability to access it. Stop asking for things to be handed to you on a silver platter. If you don't like how epic mobs are being tanked, why worry about it?If you still feel that you can't compete with the guardians that is a problem with your attitude and outlook not the game.It's doable, wheteher or not you are doing it.In the end: Its a coupout, an excuse, a rant, a whine because you want things handed to you. There is plenty of other mobs waiting to be tanked by you, I suggest you go tank them if you do not feel epic mobs fit in with your playstyle.I'm sorry, but paying for this game gives you access to the game and all the content in it; what you do with that content, is up to you.

[Warl]

<DIV>^^ Well said Migyb, some people just want it all. sad really</DIV>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR>Things change. This isn't beta anymore.<BR><BR>Shouldn't of believed the hype. <BR><BR>Maybe if you try harder you'll tank as well as a guardian. <BR><BR>In theory, every tank out there can tank epics, they just have to have the skill and motivation. <BR><BR>There's plenty of other content out there for you.<BR><BR>Just because the content is there doesn't mean everyone should have the automatic ability to access it. <BR><BR>Stop asking for things to be handed to you on a silver platter. <BR><BR>If you don't like how epic mobs are being tanked, why worry about it?<BR><BR>If you still feel that you can't compete with the guardians that is a problem with your attitude and outlook not the game.<BR><BR>It's doable, wheteher or not you are doing it.<BR><BR>In the end: Its a coupout, an excuse, a rant, a whine because you want things handed to you. <BR><BR>There is plenty of other mobs waiting to be tanked by you, I suggest you go tank them if you do not feel epic mobs fit in with your playstyle.<BR><BR>I'm sorry, but paying for this game gives you access to the game and all the content in it; what you do with that content, is up to you.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Think that just about sums it up.   I wonder who said most of those things?

[RafaelSmith]

I think too many people just plain read too much into all that "Equally of Archetype" stuff.  I never interpreted it as saying that the 6 subclasses within an Archetype could be interchangeable in 100% of the situations.   What I was expecting was a game where there was an equal # of encounters where each of the 6 subclasses would be more efficient at than the others...thus making raid planning, strategy, etc a little more involved. I wish it was more like that...something like...Warriors better at tanking Scout mobs, Crusadors at tanking Mage/Priest type mobs, Brawlers at tanking Fighter mobs....  By better i dont mean only...i just mean each should have an area of specialty. Im talking about end game Epic/raid encounters...In terms of everyday EXP type mobs...its already true that any one of the 6 fighters can do the job just as well as the others.  If fact ide say everything is too equal...making everyone a little less unique and diverse. The problem we have and the problem that will be even worse once all the Gages get their way is there will be NO room for anyone too feel like they bring something special to the table.  Ide rather have a raid where "We need a Gaurdian" or "We need a Monk" for this rather than "Grab the first fighter that shows up". <div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Warlot wrote:<BR> <DIV>^^ Well said Migyb, some people just want it all. sad really</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Of course it was well said, he copied and pasted lines I used in a lot of my other posts, and I always say things well.</P> <P>I think the only people who want it all, are the people trying to say guardians right now aren't overpowered <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Rah]

<DIV> <P>Trolling defintion</P> <P>1. To fish for by trailing a baited line from behind a slowly moving boat</P> <P>2. Slang. To patrol an area in search for someone or something "[Crimials] troll bus stations for young runaways"</P> <P>3. Music. troll a carol</P> <P>4. To roll or revolve</P> <P>I recant Tuna trolled for you and you took a bite,.....no wait you were patroling the guardian forum looking for young runaways....uhhhh there are so many things wrong with that thought that Im afraid to follow them to there conclusion, okay okay you like to sing about how overpowered guardians are! No your whining not singing that wont work. HAHA I have it you have rolled over and revolved around your arguments since you started posting here! So I guess I cant recant my orignal post...can I?</P> <P>Your input is ALWAYS monk centric and it STARTED with the AGI nerf. It has since then followed the same line of logic. The thing I ahve found most annoying as of late is that you are now mr look at me Im in a guild of repute from EQ1 and THEY should correct me if I am wrong about anything I happen to post here. </P> <P>Well let me be the first to congratulate you on being in a guild</P> <P>And let me also be the first to say that your affilitation with a guild in no way supports your arguments</P> <P>So here we are back to Gage 101 and hijacking post (although granted Tuna did use the exact lure to pull you out of whatever place you ah gone to).</P> <P>So to prevent your posting (or I should say minimize your random drive bys of anything guardians are trying to share amongst guardians please just go to the forums section and post a new thread called Gage is in FoH and has the following concerns. I promise to go there and read each and everyone of your thoughts on how we should all follow your view on what sub class balance should entail. By the way if SOE ever sends you a invitation to program or attend meetings were decsions are made please let me know. </P> <P>/rant off</P> <P>I really like Smakems idea of each subclass having X number of Epic mobs that they are the obvious choice for.It should be the Mob driving the tank selection not the generic fighter with diff class name equally tanks all mobs. If thats the case then we should all just have been fighters. If my vote counts Im with Smakem</P> <P>Rahge</P> <P>Everfrost </P></DIV>

[Gaige]

<P>Ha Ha, yes yes, you are so amazingly correct.</P> <P>I only post to show off the fact that I'm in FoH, I only started posting after the agility nerf, and everytime I post I mention that I went to the Community Summit (and omg so did some guardians :o)</P> <P>But... anyway.</P> <P>I've posted before I was in FoH, I've posted before the agility nerf, and I certainly posted before I went to the CS... all about the same things.</P> <P>Excuse me if I ignore your request to not post anymore sir.</P> <P>As for wanting guardians to be nerfed, I don't.  I want them to be fixed, kind of how I want our DPS to be fixed.</P> <P>I'm not asking to take your job, I'm asking to be able to do mine and so I can quit doing the scout's job <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Juk]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Warlot wrote: <div>^^ Well said Migyb, some people just want it all. sad really</div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Of course it was well said, he copied and pasted lines I used in a lot of my other posts, and I always say things well.</p> <p>I think the only people who want it all, are the people trying to say guardians right now aren't overpowered <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>who is saying we arent overpowered now? who is saying we should allways be supermen? we are simply saying that we choose a tank class, we played a tank class to lvl 50, we deserve an edge on defense cos we are nothing but tank. i'm not even abusing defensestacking and yet i'm still able to tank everything. i tanked darathar with 0% avoidance vs him, back against him and no bard songs or duststorms from warden. i know jezekiel has tanked epics allready, didnt need to bug his mitigation in any way, he is a bruiser which is supposed to be lowest defensive fighter. he is not supposed to be able to tank hardest mob ingame like we arent supposed to either without other fighter assisting us. why is full raid 24 players? there is 24 different subclasses and optimal raid should allways be with one of each class. if soe makes every fighter just tank and removes dps and utility from monks, crusaders and zerkers this will not be the case. there will never be 6 tanks needed for raid.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Jukis wrote:<BR><SPAN> we are simply saying that we choose a tank class, we played a tank class to lvl 50, we deserve an edge on defense cos we are nothing but tank.  <FONT color=#ffff00>So did I, so did I, and I want to <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></SPAN></P> <P><SPAN>i know jezekiel has tanked epics allready, didnt need to bug his mitigation in any way, he is a bruiser which is supposed to be lowest defensive fighter. he is not supposed to be able to tank hardest mob ingame like we arent supposed to either without other fighter assisting us.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Jez tanked Rognog and Zalak a very long time ago before they got beefed up.</FONT><BR><BR>why is full raid 24 players? there is 24 different subclasses and optimal raid should allways be with one of each class. <FONT color=#ffff00>This you're 100% wrong about.  An optimal raid is in no way one of each of the 24 different classes.  Multiple MG posts dispute your very statement.</FONT></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Juk]

yea yea optimal raid should be 23 monks and 1 cute troubador to entertain them. you saying you want to lose all your utility, dps and be nothing but a meatshield? why did you make a monk then? it was pretty obvious that monk isnt that kind of class. <div></div>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jukis wrote:<BR><BR><BR> why did you make a monk then? it was pretty obvious that monk isnt that kind of class.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Again, he made a monk because of the dps/tanking ability they had in beta and release prior to the agility nerf.   He picked the "super class" that got it wings clipped a bit.   He has been trying to get the guards nerfed/his class upped ever since. </DIV>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jukis wrote:<BR><BR><BR> why did you make a monk then? it was pretty obvious that monk isnt that kind of class.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Again, he made a monk because of the dps/tanking ability they had in beta and release prior to the agility nerf.   He picked the "super class" that got it wings clipped a bit.   He has been trying to get the guards nerfed/his class upped ever since. </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Bingo~ And its an old sob story to be honest.

[Gaige]

<P>I was never a monk in beta, I was a 19 brawler, and I didn't tank much, if at all if I recall correctly because this was my first grouping MMO.  I solo'd exclusively in SWG because, well, everyone did when I played it.</P> <P>As for being super in January, I was one of the main people saying that we were overpowered, that the agility nerf was warranted, and everything else.</P> <P>Besides, the agility nerf was intended to fix scouts, it just hurt us a lot also, and they've been trying to fix us ever since.</P> <P>And no, there is no "ideal" raid, especially 23 monks, that'd just be silly.  But they did the archetype system so that raids would be doable with a rather vast amount of combinations of the various subclasses.</P> <P>Again, if I want my monk to be all powerful why did I, and do I campaign a change in the difference between our and scout DPS?</P> <P>Hmmmm?</P>

[Aeandil7]

I'm a little baffled why there is so much venom being spit at Gage over this suggestion.  He makes perfect sense in a way as long as you don't take into account the fact that the game combat mechanics are still a bit borked. Lets for the moment take specials out of the picture and talk purely physical damage. If gage's ideas are implemented what you would wind up with is a heavy tank that would still be the preffered tank in all ^^^ encounters anyway because of they wouldn't be as susceptible to spikes in damage being dealt to them.  Combine that with a the significantly higher total hp pool of the heavy armor tanks and you wind up in the same place you are now; which is any tank will do for most encounters but when your up against something really nasty a guardian is going to be the preffered tank because your not to as worried about a damage spike taking him out. Unfortunatly with the current combat system avoidance plays a much larger role than it should and mitigation doesn't play enough of a role.  Until that is fixed gage's suggestions merely unbalance things in the opposite direction. <div></div>

[a]

Played both a guard and monk. guard dps sucks, dont care what anyone says. dont think guars are overpowered what so over. <div></div>

[lagerone]

<P>For the record not all Brawlers support Gage and the raid-tank-cabal's quest to have Monks and Bruisers turned into raid tanks.</P> <P>It is a fetish thing for bored Brawlers in the "uber" guilds who got to Level 50 in 6 weeks and now want to tank raid mobs without rerolling as a Guardian.</P> <P>I appreciate the distinction between a "Light Tank" i.e Bruiser and a "Heavy Tank" i.e Guardian.  I expect to be able to tank heroic mobs, no more.  Personally I have no intention of every being or wanting to be a raid tank.  However I do believe, like most Brawlers, that the DPS distinction is very important to our class (unlike Gage).</P> <DIV>As for some of the related comments I hope that EQ2 stays true to its content rich, social gaming promise, and Splitpaw is a fantastic example of this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage is fully entitled to his views, but as I have said in a number of forums I do not believe it is in the best interests of the game as a whole.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lagerone wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage is fully entitled to his views, but as I have said in a number of forums I do not believe it is in the best interests of the game as a whole. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Of course not, because you want to play a fighter who can dps like a scout; ie an overpowered class.</P> <P>You abandoned your zerker when they were fixed, and I expect you to do the same for your bruiser.</P> <P>I'd imagine you like where we are now, since we do more DPS than scouts and tank better too!<BR></P>

[blueduckie]

<P>As i agree with your statement gage brawlers shouldnt out dmg scouts i think that should be all situational. For example i think just because a class is a scout should not mean it is wicked dps. Bards for example add so much group support I do not see them as a "dps" class i see them as a support class. Unless they want to really split up classes and make dirge a high dps and troubador a low dps and more defensive support from buffs which is really how it is atm but there dmg skills do same dmg really just songs are put 1 more toward offense / noxious other is arcane / elemental / more defensive</P> <P>I have the same view on fighters mages and so on. Just because you are a mage doesnt mean you should be wicked dmg. I think each subclass has its fluke class that should be considerably different for the class compared to the others. Bards for scouts, Enchanter for mage, Druid for priest, and Brawler for fighter. When i read fighter it does not mean  can take dmg from any mob. That is where you branch of your decisions at the later lvls. I think Brawlers should do as much to more dps as a bard and as the above poster said should be able to tank heroics and possibly epics that dont hit insanely high but mostly if tanking on a raid should make good snap aggro tanks on lower dmg hitting adds. I think they set mob hits too high dmg on majority but thats just my opinion faster lower hits with lowering stunning abilities use time would be my preference but how it is atm isnt really bad.</P> <P>I do not see though why a enchanter for example should be boosted in dps when it adds so much dps already from power regen / haste just because they are a mage. I parse alot and my dps is so insane with a enchanter compared to with out. If they considered that into enchanter dps they already do insane dmg not to mention how much they save raids from the power regen for priests and even mt to keep those taunts chaining. Brawler shouldnt be hit down to just doing barely more dps than a guardian.  I do not feel guardian and brawler should even be in the same dps group but you are only 2 steps ahead and as way as i read it a fabled weapon guardian will out dps a monk with say rare crafted. That would be amusing but i would rather see it take more differences than that and group set up should always be the biggest part of dps. Unless I am totally surprised by changes monks still wont tank well on epics. I do not believe these changes will make monks good tanks unless decked out in fabled gear to hang well on epics but we will have to see. Taking away a huge abiltiy that they have atm in pushing dps down so low, i would much rather see monks dropped down a little but not as far as moorgard listed. Predators Rogues Wizards Summoners should reign on the dps followed behind by brawler bard then below them druid and enchanter just my 2 cents i think druids should be half nuker half healer but i am prejadice on that thought of druids because i loved the role they had in eq1 greatly.</P> <P>However in my thinking this is where i think expansions can help tons. With adding 10 levels that is alot of room to seperate classes out more. As listed above about not making it a actual subclass but the actual class work. Subclasses do not need to be same dam thing but 1 little more offensive and other a little more defensive. Should be very defining differences in there skills. A fury should nuke alot harder than a warden and a warden should out heal a fury. That set up is pretty close except fury nukes are a little under par to what they should be IMO. Over all though i do not have many complaints but these combat changes can be as good for the game as it can equally fux it up for awhile to. It is very easy (and expansions in eq1 proved this) for SOE to mess up combat revamp and make mobs way to easy and dumbied down or way to dam hard where it is impossible to kill it unless perfect set up and already geared which will make them just have to change stuff again. So i hope for the best from them but there dmg bracket posted so far does not impress me seems so lacking in a weel thought list IMO. Trying to hard to to keep fighter scout mage priest etc all bunched up and same instead of keeping some diversity IMHO.</P> <P>PS my brother plays a troubador and tanks as well as a monk and outtanks it if uses graceful avoidance. Can even out aggro monks by using songs for aggro. So your out tanking scout thnig is all on how you look at it.</P> <P>Deretti</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>07-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:22 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<P>Arggg!</P> <P>Gage - You should know better than to take the bait!  </P> <P>Tunaboo - Are you bored or something?  Take a simple thread and blow it up into another war between Gage and yourself.  </P> <P>Druidblue -  Guardians are the "Meat Sheilds" of EQ2.   Our roll is to keep aggro and take damage.  We have very little utility and our DPS is among the lowest in the game.   I cannot address the other fighter classes, I'll let the others define themselves.</P> <P>Oh and Druidblue, don't worry about the post war.  It's been going on for a while.  Nothing you could have done to avoid it.  </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> blueduckie wrote:<BR> <P>As i agree with your statement gage brawlers shouldnt out dmg scouts i think that should be all situational. For example i think just because a class is a scout should not mean it is wicked dps. Bards for example add so much group support I do not see them as a "dps" class i see them as a support class. </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>True, and as SOE has stated, putting our damage output on par with bards/enchanters after the changes *does* take their buffs and ability to raise group damage into consideration.<BR>