Why dont you just NERF all subclasses to fighter?

[911Med]

I have read these forums forever but this is my first time posting.  This class balance thing is getting way out of hand.  I just logged on today to find that 2 of my main HP buffs no longer stack.  This was the only edge that I had as a Guardian.  I am in a high level raiding guild and I am very upset by this.  Sorry for the incoming rant guys...but here it goes... I started a Guardian because I wanted to be the one to hold the agro and take the damage.  I know that Bruisers, Zerkers, Monks, Pallys and SK's can all out dmg me in a heartbeat but I am attracted to the "meat-shield" aspect of tanking.  Guardians hold agro because other players LET them hold agro......like it or not....that's how it is.  Any other healer, fighter, mage or priest can pull agro from you if they tried. A raid can get away with one Guardian easily, sometimes it's nice to have two.  So out of 24 people in a raid....you only need two Guardians at the most.  When I first rolled my Guard, I thought that I would always be needed in a group or raid.  It is now obvious that I was wrong.  One Guard with better equipment is all it takes for me to play second fiddle in a raid or sit out all together.   Now, guards have almost the same HP as a Zerker in today's patch.  If I were the raid leader....I would now kick out the Guards and just have more Zerkers.  They can hold agro better (<--- Please don't debate this right now...you know it's true) they do more dmg, and now our hp is almost the same.  We wear the same freakin armor, carry the same shields and do less dmg.   I used to have about 1000 hp over the zerkers in my guild and now I have less than 100 over the zerkers.  I really hope that this gets fixed.  I know that the new update is incoming so I'm sure that everybody will be interested to see what happens.  Personally, I wish things would stay the same as they were before this patch.  Bruisers (God help em) do great DPS and they are gonna get the nerf bat hard.  Zerkers are also gonna get a reduced DPS according to Ask SOE #37.  Soooooo....now I'm trying to think what difference between Zerks and Guards will be when Zerks get the DPS nerf.  Kinda sounds like a Guardian to me.  People chose Zerkers to do high group mob dmg, chose Bruisers/Monk to do high single mob dmg, chose Pally/SK to have decent DPS/HP and chose Guardians to have high HP and take a beating.  The line between subclasses is becoming more blurred and I think that SUCKS.  SOE.....if your gonna have more than one fighter subclass....MAKE IT DIFFERENT. I can continue to rant for about 10 more pages but I will not waste your time any longer.  If anybody else has input on this, I would really like to hear it.   If you disagree you don't have to 1star; just post a reply.  If you agree totally, you dont have to 5 star; just post a reply.  I think SOE needs to hear from us about the fighter classes having no definition. -A [Removed for Content] Off Level 50 Guardian <div></div>

[Vulking]

<P>Well you have said it better than i could.</P> <P>All i can say is this sucks.</P>

[Rah]

<DIV>~sigh!~</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Least I got chicken</DIV>

[Opa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>911Medic wrote:</P> <P><BR>SOE.....if your gonna have more than one fighter subclass....MAKE IT DIFFERENT.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Changes are hard on everyone. I'm a bruiser, and you should see some of the doom and gloom on those boards about what these changes are going to mean. For the record, I don't know the specifics of the buff stacking issue you're talking about, as this isn't my class.</P> <P>But on to my point. I think fighter subclasses are pretty different. I think they're probably going to remain that way. As for the specifics of the Guard/Zerker issue, you should be reminded that Berserker DPS is going to look very different after the full combat changes have gone live (as I think this buff de-stacking tweak is an anticipation of). Anyhow, warriors should be pretty similar in my book. One a little more defensive, one a little more offensive.</P> <P>Personally, I don't think there should be a clearly "best" tank class in a game like this. The trinity was the rule in EQ, and one of the big selling points of this game was the archetype system. And, of course, the problem with the archetype system is you get yourself into all kinds of sticky situations. "DPS classes" scream about "tank class" dps, and consequently Sony makes overtures of Brawler dps getting nerfed. Then brawlers say "well, fine, but if you're going to make me a tank, I'll need to tank better."</P> <P>I mean, no one's right in all this. But to some degree, Sony has made their bed on this issue. The archetype system, rather than a set of distinct classes, has to control the type of changes they make.</P> <P>But as for the claim that no HP buff stacking makes fighters less diverse, I don't know. I'm still wearing light armor, after all.<BR></P>

[Ibis]

<P>This change has nothing to do with guardian identity.  We were not meant to stack several spells in the same buff line.  It wasn't meant to be addressed yet, but it is planned to be made this way permanently soon.  This change will probably be reverted soon until the full release of the spell and combat revamp.</P> <P>Guardians and the other fighter classes are still plenty different.  Also there is less stacking amongst the whole archetype, so you will have to pick and choose which buffs you want if you have multiple fighters in a group.</P>

[a]

Guardians are suppsoed to be the most defenseive Fighter (i think>>?) and it doesnt make any sense to me why the HP of a Guard should be equal to a Zerker at all. 1) Whats the point of having defense if your not going to take the mobs head on. Kind of makes having 'the best' defense out of the Fighters meaningless if a Zerker could repalce a Guard with the current changes. 2) Im still confused how the archetype system was thought of. In what world does a Scout (a SCOUT WHO SCOUTS OUT THE ROAD AHEAD) do more DPS. I know this point is a bit - non to do with the Nerf ur talking about but it still beffables me why a FIGHTER as in FIGHTING does less damage than a person who Scouts. <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>

[Ravendarth]

<P>I guess I am kinda unique in that among my toons I have a Zerker, Guardian, Wizard, Paladin, Templar, Fury and Swashbuckler. I try to regularly read most of these boards. You would really be amazed how little people know about the other archtypes. People speak in broad generalities when it comes to DPS, tanking ability, etc. On average I would think that maybe 40% at best of these claims are even partially true.</P> <P>It was clearly stated the the changes we saw today were 1) never supposed to go active yet and 2) are a very small portion of the total work that is being done. Why then base your reaction on the very small glimpse we saw today?</P> <P>The other thing that always amazes me is how little is really known about the "huge" damage that scouts do. A full third of my combat arts are meant to be used from a flanking or rear position. Hence if I am soloing or am in a less than full group (read without a fighter archtype) I loss the use of these abilities (which include most of my highest damage attacks). On top of that, in most fights, a full 60% of my DPS comes from poisons. Yet SOE considers this "bought DPS" as part of my total when all other archtypes do not have to spend a single copper on their DPS. I have no issue with this as I understood this going in. What I have a issue with is then fighter types complaining that scouts do too much damage.</P> <P>I think once the rest of the changes are seen the difference between a Guardian and Zerker that some of the former posters were concerned about will return to what we are all familiar with.Another thing to keep in mind is that any changes to PCs are always mirrored in NPCs in the game. After all, all their abilities/DPS come from the same lists as ours.</P>

[Axhine]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> 911Medic wrote:<BR>I have read these forums forever but this is my first time posting.  This class balance thing is getting way out of hand.  I just logged on today to find that 2 of my main HP buffs no longer stack.  This was the only edge that I had as a Guardian.  I am in a high level raiding guild and I am very upset by this.  Sorry for the incoming rant guys...but here it goes...<BR><BR>I started a Guardian because I wanted to be the one to hold the agro and take the damage.  I know that Bruisers, Zerkers, Monks, Pallys and SK's can all out dmg me in a heartbeat but I am attracted to the "meat-shield" aspect of tanking.  Guardians hold agro because other players LET them hold agro......like it or not....that's how it is.  Any other healer, fighter, mage or priest can pull agro from you if they tried. <BR><BR>A raid can get away with one Guardian easily, sometimes it's nice to have two.  So out of 24 people in a raid....you only need two Guardians at the most.  When I first rolled my Guard, I thought that I would always be needed in a group or raid.  It is now obvious that I was wrong.  One Guard with better equipment is all it takes for me to play second fiddle in a raid or sit out all together.   Now, guards have almost the same HP as a Zerker in today's patch.  If I were the raid leader....I would now kick out the Guards and just have more Zerkers.  They can hold agro better (<--- Please don't debate this right now...you know it's true) they do more dmg, and now our hp is almost the same.  We wear the same freakin armor, carry the same shields and do less dmg.   I used to have about 1000 hp over the zerkers in my guild and now I have less than 100 over the zerkers.  I really hope that this gets fixed.  I know that the new update is incoming so I'm sure that everybody will be interested to see what happens.  Personally, I wish things would stay the same as they were before this patch.  Bruisers (God help em) do great DPS and they are gonna get the nerf bat hard.  Zerkers are also gonna get a reduced DPS according to Ask SOE #37.  Soooooo....now I'm trying to think what difference between Zerks and Guards will be when Zerks get the DPS nerf.  Kinda sounds like a Guardian to me.  People chose Zerkers to do high group mob dmg, chose Bruisers/Monk to do high single mob dmg, chose Pally/SK to have decent DPS/HP and chose Guardians to have high HP and take a beating.  The line between subclasses is becoming more blurred and I think that SUCKS.  SOE.....if your gonna have more than one fighter subclass....MAKE IT DIFFERENT.<BR><BR>I can continue to rant for about 10 more pages but I will not waste your time any longer.  If anybody else has input on this, I would really like to hear it.   If you disagree you don't have to 1star; just post a reply.  If you agree totally, you dont have to 5 star; just post a reply.  I think SOE needs to hear from us about the fighter classes having no definition.<BR><BR>-A [Removed for Content] Off Level 50 Guardian<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Well said they keep saying there is not enough diversity and then the go and change everything to make it more like there is just one class I am confused.<BR>

[Oakwood]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> adm wrote:<BR>2) Im still confused how the archetype system was thought of. In what world does a Scout (a SCOUT WHO SCOUTS OUT THE ROAD AHEAD) do more DPS. I know this point is a bit - non to do with the Nerf ur talking about but it still beffables me why a FIGHTER as in FIGHTING does less damage than a person who Scouts.<BR><BR><img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is because you do not come from an EQ1 background (guessing you probably have a D&D background).  In EQ1, the Warriors, Paladins and SKs did lousy damage, but had great defense, and the Rogues, Rangers and Monks had great damage but died if the mob looked at them mean (especially rangers). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The class balance problem we are seeing now is mostly caused by bad decisions made in the early design process.  The EQII crew decided to have a nice pretty class tree, and choose asthetics over class balance.  Now we have 24 different classes, 6 of each archtype, that are all supposed to be unique but interchangable (seperate but equal, anyone?).  With this many classes, there is no way to have any significant diferentiation and still maintain archtypal roles.  And in some cases the idea of archetypal roles is just absurd.  What the heck role are they thinking of that you can fill equally with a warlock or an an illusionist?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a bruiser can tank as well as a guardian, what purpose is there to a guardian?  If the guardian has the DPS of a bruiser, what purpose is there to a bruiser?  And if they perform as well as each other, what purpose is there to having different names for the classes.  To perform equally, the classes must be the same. By definition, two things that are equal are identical.  If they are not identical, they are not equal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as I can see, there is no way to fix this short of a major class overhaul, and eliminate half of the classes.  You can do this by splitting the neutral classes into good and evil, then combining the good/evil pairs.  For example, Paladin and Shadowknight would have the exact same abilities, with only the names and particle effects being different.  All good Berserkers become Guardians, and all evil Guardians become Berserkers, and then make the abilites the same for both mechanically, with different names and visuals.  This would bring us down to 12 classes, and only 3 per archtype, and 3 you can more reasonably balance.  Of course, such a major rewrite of the class system will alienate many if not most players, as everyone will be loosing something, and all classes will be changed to some extent.  It can not realistically be done.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only other option I can see is for SoE to come out with a policy statement about subclass roles, and admit the whole archetype role system is absurd and doesnt work.  If they clearly state that this subclass is intended to do this, and not that, then people will have a better idea of what they are choosing when they pick their classes.  For example, if they want brawlers to have more offense and less defense then other fighters, say so clearly when you do your class quest, so there are no suprises after you click that button.  I asked them to do this at fan faire, and they said outright no.  They don't want to impose outside restrictions on how people play their classes.  Of course, they make the skills and itemize the encounters, which is what creates the situation, but whatever.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[yzyh]

<P>I am playing a pally and not a guardian. But I hear your pain. if a guardian can't tank betther or hold aggro betther then a zerker. Why SoE made Guardian ?</P> <P> </P> <P>But dam when are they going to nerf the zerker.</P> <P> </P> <P>They tank as good as a guardian have about same HP and hodl aggro betther with a betther DPS.</P> <P>Also they can buff HP of their group betther then my paladin wih is freaking stupid thing. Come on I am a paladin. I should be the number1 tank HP/Defence buffer.</P> <P>But well. SoE made too many class in this game.</P> <P>Berseker sholdn't be in this game or they should be  a dmg dealer class that could been of tank.</P> <P>having 4 main tank class is a way too much.</P>

[Pa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ibishi wrote:<BR> <P>This change has nothing to do with guardian identity.  We were not meant to stack several spells in the same buff line.  It wasn't meant to be addressed yet, but it is planned to be made this way permanently soon.  This change will probably be reverted soon until the full release of the spell and combat revamp.</P> <P>Guardians and the other fighter classes are still plenty different.  Also there is less stacking amongst the whole archetype, so you will have to pick and choose which buffs you want if you have multiple fighters in a group.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I would seriously like some kind of explanation how were so different, what do guardians get the other classes dont? Oh thats right, broke avoidance, silly me..</P> <P>What about when they finally fix the avoidance issue then what do we have, oh we get to buff paladins with our defense buff while they tank everything (if it's not one of the skills they intend to 'spread around')</P> <P>What else do we get that defines us as a guardian instead of upgraded basic fighter archetype CA's? Seriously.. please, please, please enlighten me.</P> <P>I actually almost cancelled my account lastnight, for the first time in 5 years I was actually ready to cancel my account and never deal with Sony again. I'm not waiting another 2 years for my class to be fixed like I did in EQ1, it's just not going to happen.</P>

[NedDevi]

Medic - Zerkers can stack their HP buffs the same as Guardians can.  We can stack 3 standard buffs with an optional 4th (training choice) for ~ 1300 to 1500 HPs depending on Adept/Master level.  If you were coming in with 1K HPs over the Zerkers in your guild then for whatever reason they were not stacking their buffs.  Yesterday's mishap with the buffs didn't change any relative HP potential between the 2 subclasses as we both had the same stackability and subsequent nerf.

[Friskc]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Now, guards have almost the same HP as a Zerker in today's patch.  If I were the raid leader....I would now kick out the Guards and just have more Zerkers.  They can hold agro better (<--- Please don't Now, guards have almost the same HP as a Zerker in today's patch.</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> AHH, ya should of known this.... we have  always had the same advantage of having alot of hp buffs we can stack 4 self buffing our selfs around 7500ish so fyi it has always been this way your just thinking that now after update you have the same because some zerkers didnt pick the level 30 trait for hp ... =) so was just giving a heads up hp buffs our the same and we can stack the same lines as yall .... and when yall cant stack em anymore we wont be able to either, we'll be left with our one t-5 buff for 400 hp buff . yea i know pretty lame!! but its coming!!</P> <P>Zerkin 50 zerker</P> <P>Guk</P> <P> </P>

[Raahl]

<P>I am very sceptical about the upcoming changes.  </P> <P>Originally what drew me to the Guardian was the though of wearing super heavy armor (vangard), which before release was only listed for Guardians.  Is there a fighter class that cannot wear it now?</P> <P>Given Sony's track record in testing patches, I expect thing to be out of wack and full of bugs when they implement this.</P>

[a6eaq]

<HR> 911Medic wrote: <DIV>I have read these forums forever but this is my first time posting.  This class balance thing is getting way out of hand.  I just logged on today to find that 2 of my main HP buffs no longer stack.  This was the only edge that I had as a Guardian.  I am in a high level raiding guild and I am very upset by this.  Sorry for the incoming rant guys...but here it goes...<BR><BR>I started a Guardian because I wanted to be the one to hold the agro and take the damage.  I know that Bruisers, Zerkers, Monks, Pallys and SK's can all out dmg me in a heartbeat but I am attracted to the "meat-shield" aspect of tanking.  Guardians hold agro because other players LET them hold agro......like it or not....that's how it is.  Any other healer, fighter, mage or priest can pull agro from you if they tried. <BR><BR>A raid can get away with one Guardian easily, sometimes it's nice to have two.  So out of 24 people in a raid....you only need two Guardians at the most.  When I first rolled my Guard, I thought that I would always be needed in a group or raid.  It is now obvious that I was wrong.  One Guard with better equipment is all it takes for me to play second fiddle in a raid or sit out all together.   Now, guards have almost the same HP as a Zerker in today's patch.  If I were the raid leader....I would now kick out the Guards and just have more Zerkers.  They can hold agro better (<--- Please don't debate this right now...you know it's true) they do more dmg, and now our hp is almost the same.  We wear the same freakin armor, carry the same shields and do less dmg.   I used to have about 1000 hp over the zerkers in my guild and now I have less than 100 over the zerkers.  I really hope that this gets fixed.  I know that the new update is incoming so I'm sure that everybody will be interested to see what happens.  Personally, I wish things would stay the same as they were before this patch.  Bruisers (God help em) do great DPS and they are gonna get the nerf bat hard.  Zerkers are also gonna get a reduced DPS according to Ask SOE #37.  Soooooo....now I'm trying to think what difference between Zerks and Guards will be when Zerks get the DPS nerf.  Kinda sounds like a Guardian to me.  People chose Zerkers to do high group mob dmg, chose Bruisers/Monk to do high single mob dmg, chose Pally/SK to have decent DPS/HP and chose Guardians to have high HP and take a beating.  The line between subclasses is becoming more blurred and I think that SUCKS.  SOE.....if your gonna have more than one fighter subclass....MAKE IT DIFFERENT.<BR><BR>I can continue to rant for about 10 more pages but I will not waste your time any longer.  If anybody else has input on this, I would really like to hear it.   If you disagree you don't have to 1star; just post a reply.  If you agree totally, you dont have to 5 star; just post a reply.  I think SOE needs to hear from us about the fighter classes having no definition.<BR> <HR> </DIV> <P>The HP buff thing was fixed the very same night, thank god.  Enough people petitioned and bugged it that they realized the screw-up for once!</P> <P>As for the rest of it I am gonna [Removed for Content] you off.  I am a 48 Guardian and I have to ask you, have you really looked at ALL of your skills?  If you have you will notice that your abilities that are not attacks/taunts/buffs are PROTECTION skills.  We can take some if not ALL the damage another player is taking if we are close to them.  Lets think about this shall we?  If we are removing damage from another toon that means OH MY GOD!  WE ARE NOT TANKING IT!  Now before you all jump all over me, I am NOT saying that we are not main tanks!  The group dymanics determine who the MT is and who MA or off tank is.  In my guild there is a 48 Zerker and myself, sometime I am MT and sometimes she is.  If she is MT I use my abilities to help keep her alive by taking damage she would normally take.  The healers all know when I am doing this and they all know not to waste power on me until they need to.  What advantage does this have?  Well, Zerkers ARE more offensive, no surprise there.  If we are trying to hurry through a zone to keep from getting repops, she is the better choice to MT.  The healers use less power on her and she eats through the mobs faster than I would.  Guardians can take a beating and keep on ticking!  So, when we don't care about time, I tank.  I am a Kerra and have put all my special abilities into AGI so that I have a ridiculous high AGI for not having fabled gear that is.  It is harder for me to get hit and when I do, I don't get hit hard compared to most.  Ths means less power burn by the healer to keep me up.  My point is don't get upset if you are not the MT in ALL situations.  Noone is meant to be MT in every group.  A pally is an awesome MT if there is a mystic with to ward him.  It is all about group dynamics.  If you are always MTing then you are not using all your abilities.  We (Guardians) are there to "Protect our companions" as it is stated.  This does not mean we are the end-all tank.  Learn your abilities and use ALL of them.  I actually enjoy not MTing everytime.  It is nice to help keep another alive while I dual-wield and add a "little" DPS LOL.  </P> <P>As far as letting us hold agro, I can loose it sure, but I will always get it back when I want it and I have proven on many occasions that I can take it if I really want to when not MT, that has helped keep us in many fights.  I use 3 taunt/attacks, 1 single taunt,  1 AE taunt, and anchor for long range pulling.  That is 6 total plus I always use retaliate as my first attack on a mob to inflict 400+ dmg from the get go and that helps me to hold aggro.  The only person in my guild that can pull aggro off with any regularity is a 50 Swash who is ubber.  I don't use a lot of my straight out special attacks when tanking either.  I use my taunting attacks which add hate every time they land.  Throw in the HO and I am good.  </P> <P>Sony is screwing a lot up with every live update I agree, but I like the thought that I do not have to be at the top of my game every time we do guild events.  It is nice to know that another can tank and I can still to my fair share to ensure the success of our endeavours.  And I have on numerous occasions by Safeguarding the tank.  </P> <P> </P>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> a6eaq wrote:<BR> <HR> <P>Well, Zerkers ARE more offensive, no surprise there. </P> <P><FONT color=#cc0033>yes but in raid setup you're gonna lose alot of dps with zerker as MT...  his defensive skills lower his attack stats...</FONT></P> <P> I use 3 taunt/attacks, 1 single taunt,  1 AE taunt, and anchor for long range pulling.  That is 6 total plus I always use retaliate as my first attack on a mob to inflict 400+ dmg from the get go and that helps me to hold aggro. </P> <P><FONT color=#cc0033>too bad that one the ^^^ protect and retalite don't work...  also anchor isn't gonna hit a yellow/orange ^^^</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>now you said you put all your traits into agi...  great for soloing, but raid setup its really about the most HP you can get...  with a warden alone in a normal group my avoid is roughtly 97%....  same can be said for a bard...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>might just be me but i usually have auto attack off and use very little straight CA's while tanking (hate the 3k riptose)...  i'm there to hold agro and take a beating...  i'll toss in vindcation, cleave, feroucious charge, maybe a bash at the start, but after that its really mostly just taunts and buffs i cycle...  i like to keep my power for them...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>take what happened last night in the 2 gorup splitpaw raid...  never been there before but group 2 tank went LD midway through and never came back...  they had a swashy tankin till we rejoined...  then on last guy i was ussein all my power just to try and peel repoping adds off ppl while maintining on the ^^^...  was fun but a couple ppl did die we only had 10 to start with 9 during last fight...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>our protection skills will get you dead fast...  only time i've really used safeguard was on another guard while doing group arena...  was a group of 2 guards and a ranger...  i was takein more damage from the same hits than he was when i intervene lined him...  his gear was a little better  but the hits i was takin were alot more than his...  i was in red he ws in green when i cancled them...  rest of fight without em he wasn't takin the damage i was...  i'd hate to imagine it on a ^^^ that dishes out 3k hits to me raid buffed normally...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>just my thoughts</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wabit</DIV>

[Xibi]

<DIV>I completely agree with everything the first post said.    I have a feeling they will be changing everything such as how taunt works.  But if they make us [Removed for Content] at tanking / damage output / taunts, why the hell even play a Guardian anymore?   I would retire in a heartbeat if this happens.  I have no alt, I hate playing alts.  I like my main character that I spent forever building up.  So as soon as he's useless, I'm gone.  That's the way it was with my necro in EQ 1.  I quit before Luclin, back when no one wanted necros in groups or raids.  And I never went back to EQ 1.    I really hope it doesn't come to this in this game as well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But I don't think it will end up like this.  There would be FAR too many unhappy Guardians and that's risking a lot of canceled accounts.</DIV>

[Roukl]

<P>I have to agree with the statement that there are too many classes. No class has a defined role at all. I kind of understand they did this due to feed back from eq1 where people complained that a group HAD to have Tank, Slower and Healer . With EQ2 set up you can make a group with virtually anyone. However this in itself leads to very unskilled combat , pretty much leaving u with online hack n' slash.</P> <P>There should (imo) be some skill to combat , but slowing and mezzing really are uneccessary in this game due to the speed a group can kill a mob. Hell guardians have a slow all be it 5 % or whatever , we have hp buffs and various other things. While I'm sure none of this will ever change as this is EQ2 not EQ1 it would be nice if post 50 sony could leave out as much cross class skills as possible so each class has a defining ability the other classes do not.</P>