Why should Monks Tank better than Guardians?

[Poochymama]

<DIV>To be honest I dont even have a guardian so im not biased. I do have a bruiser and my friend has a monk. But the way it is on test servers right now and soon to be on the normal servers Monks tank better than guardians. They have around 42-45% mitigation and 85% avoidance, while Guardians have about 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]  5% more mitigation for 60% less avoidance this seems very unbalanced. Not to mention that Monks do twice as much dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Im not posting this because i have a guardian and want him to be uber. I dont even have a guardian. But this needs to be done for the good of the game. Let me put it to you in numbers. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A mob hits you 100 times for 100 dmg unmitigated.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is how the monk would come out of the battle he would avoid 85 hits take 15 hits ( 85% av) He would mitigate each of those hits down to about 55 dmg with (45% mit) taking a total of 15 hits for 55 dmg each for a grand total of dmg 825 dmg</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now lets take a look at the Guardian</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The Guardian would only avoid 25 hits with 25% av you he would take 75 hits total. Now he will Mitigate the hits to about 45 dmg with 55% mit. So he will get hit a total of 75 times for 45 dmg each. He would take a Grand total of 3375 dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So monk takes 825 dmg and Guardian takes 3375 dmg. Does that seem fair?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not to mention the monk killed his twice as fast so he took only half those hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the totals for dmg should look more like this</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guard=3375 dmg</DIV> <DIV>Monk =412  dmg</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do you guys think. Am i crazy or is it heavily skewed in the Monks favor?</DIV></DIV>

[Nacoa]

There is a reason it's called the Test server. <div></div>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nacoa wrote:<BR>There is a reason it's called the Test server.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know its on the test server. But i posted this on the Monk forums and they said that they tought guardian avoidance could even be lower. They also said that monks needed to have more health along with all this other stuff while still doing twice the dps.

[Macross_JR]

<P>Please go away Poochymama p.  All you are doing is trying to incite a flame war.  Thanks for bringing the information, but your last comment is just begging to get a flame war started.  We have had enough of those on these forums and don't need any more.</P>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Macross_JR wrote:<BR> <P>Please go away Poochymama p.  All you are doing is trying to incite a flame war.  Thanks for bringing the information, but your last comment is just begging to get a flame war started.  We have had enough of those on these forums and don't need any more.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Im not trying to start a flame war. Im trying to help you guys out. If these changes go live Guardians will no longer be the main tank. Monks and bruisers will. I hope that you realize this.

[Nacoa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Nacoa wrote:There is a reason it's called the Test server. <div></div> <hr> </blockquote>I know its on the test server. But i posted this on the Monk forums and they said that they tought guardian avoidance could even be lower. <div></div><hr></blockquote>And I agree with them.  Guardian avoidance should be even lower.  But guardian mitigation should be massive. My guardian should tank like a rock.  Just standing there getting banged on but not really getting hurt by it. My monk (buiser) should tank like Yoda in Ep 2.  Bouncing all over the place like a superball. Everything on test is massively changing still.  You should not base anything on the current stats.</span><div></div>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nacoa wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nacoa wrote:<BR>There is a reason it's called the Test server.<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I know its on the test server. But i posted this on the Monk forums and they said that they tought guardian avoidance could even be lower. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>And I agree with them.  Guardian avoidance should be even lower.  But guardian mitigation should be massive.<BR><BR>My guardian should tank like a rock.  Just standing there getting banged on but not really getting hurt by it.<BR>My monk (buiser) should tank like Yoda in Ep 2.  Bouncing all over the place like a superball.<BR><BR>Everything on test is massively changing still.  You should not base anything on the current stats.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I agree with you totally I think it would be fair to lower guardians avoidance as long as they up the mitigation. I tried to explain this on the monk forums but they refused to accept it saying that guardians mitigation was already much to high even though it was only 5-10% higher than theirs, while their avoidance is 55-60% higher than Guardians. If Guardians Avoidance stayes at around 25% I think  Monks mitigation should come down to about that. And Guardians Mitigation should rise to match monks avoidance. So it would look like Mit/Av Guard = 85/25 Monk = 25/85 Instead of Guard = 50/25 Monk = 40/85.

[lagerone]

<P>Dear Guardians,</P> <P>Pooch isn't posting here to incite a flame war at all, quite the opposite.  But there is a very influencial minority of Monks/Bruisers who apparently want your job.</P> <P>I am <STRONG>not</STRONG> among those.  I <STRONG>do not</STRONG> want to tank raid mobs, but there are some L50 Brawlers pushing to redefine our roll in that way. </P> <P>Might be in your interest to check out what they are trying to do and protect yourselves.</P> <P>Anyway, it is up to you guys....</P> <p>Message Edited by lagerone on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:06 PM</span>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lagerone wrote:<BR> <P>Dear Guardians,</P> <P>Pooch isn't posting here to incite a flame war at all, quite the opposite.  But there is a very influencial minority of Monks/Guardians who apparently want your job.</P> <P>I am <STRONG>not</STRONG> among those.  I <STRONG>do not</STRONG> want to tank raid mobs, but there are some L50 Brawlers pushing to redefine our roll in that way. </P> <P>Might be in your interest to check out what they are trying to do and protect yourselves.</P> <P>Anyway, it is up to you guys....</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This is old news, they have been lobbying for this since the agility nerf.   /shrug</P> <P>Judging from board traffic and in game traffic, no one really even cares anymore I do not think   heh</P>

[ScrumplesTheBe]

<DIV>Yeah pooch it does seem a bit one sided.But mitigation while tanking will always be more important than avoidence and it always has.I'm sure if monks are getting more avoidence they will get way less mitigation and vice versa for tanks.Also Knights and Breserkers will be affected by this not just guardians.If memory serves me correct what type of decrease you get in avoidence/mitigation comes from the armor type.Like light armor with give 15% avoidence while getting -15% mitigation,while heavy would give +15% to mitigation while giveing -15 avoidence.If SoE leaves mitigation the same at 51% with full ebon while giveing me 25% avoidence.This would just be to much idoicy form SoE to bare and i will retire my guardian.</DIV><p>Message Edited by ScrumplesTheBear on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:02 PM</span>

[ArcisFort]

<DIV>I remember how bad warriors got screwed in eqlive.  took SoE for ever to make them somewhat better.  I wont wait that long, vanguard well be out soon...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>ALL tanks should be able to tank epic mobs,  Guardians should just be first choice.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[AlexT]

<DIV>TBH on raids the raid mob will be hitting you so much that avoidence won't make as bigger difference as mitigation will, and also guardians have the most amount of taunts making it much easier than other classes to hold agro.</DIV>

[Sirrion77]

<P>i'm happy with 90% mitig, 50% avoidance fully buffed in raid, it's almost even better hehe.</P> <P>more small hits (less avoid with high mitig) makes reactive trigger more often which means more heals!<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</P> <P>MotM comes to mind, 20 adds hitting for 15 dmg, MT's hp bar nevers goes does hehe.</P> <P>Sirriun</P>

[OgApostrap]

After they remove/reduce buff stacking the tanks should be more even.... But last official post dealy I read said that guards would be like 20-30% avoidance.. and that mitigations would rise by some 33% on armor or something... *shrug* They should just really make some raid mobs more.. hit for less, but hit more.

[MastikFantastik]

<DIV>Yes the Idea I think is the get hit for less but more often got plate/vanguard wearers.  But there is another downside that no one mentioned inthis thread (iknow it has been before in others) but its is if I am going to get hit most of the time they will have to change how stuns work on the plate wearing fighters.  Because if not, I will spend too much time stunned and not enough time tanking in any capacity.  Heck even now some mobs stun the heck out of me .lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ScrumplesTheBear wrote:<BR> <DIV>Like light armor with give 15% avoidence while getting -15% mitigation,while heavy would give +15% to mitigation while giveing -15 avoidence.</DIV> <P><BR>  <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I hope this is the way it turns out. Because right now light armor gives -10% to mitigation + 60%.<BR>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>I'm just waiting for sony to do to monks in this game what they did to them in EQ1 then we will have our revenge</DIV>

[SmakenDah]

<div></div><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">Didn't they recently reverse that monk nerf? (in EQL, I mean)</font> <div></div><p>Message Edited by SmakenDahed on <span class=date_text>06-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:49 PM</span>

[Armeng]

Yes but itemization is not broke to the degree it was when they instituted the fix. <div></div>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Poochymama p wrote:<BR> <DIV>To be honest I dont even have a guardian so im not biased. I do have a bruiser and my friend has a monk. But the way it is on test servers right now and soon to be on the normal servers Monks tank better than guardians. They have around 42-45% mitigation and 85% avoidance, while Guardians have about 50% mitigation and 25% avoidance. [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]  5% more mitigation for 60% less avoidance this seems very unbalanced. Not to mention that Monks do twice as much dmg.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>What do you guys think. Am i crazy or is it heavily skewed in the Monks favor?</DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Uhh...youre crazy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I live on test, got a guardian there, level 22.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am in pristine handcrafted carbonite plate, have 59 agi.  Mit is 40.4, Avoidance is 55.6 unbuffed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Exactly at what point can I expect to lose half my avoidance?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Dont pull numbers out of thin air.  Its bad form.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit* bad spelling and worser grammar</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:29 AM</span>

[Subtlekni]

I don't play on test, so I can't comment. But I will say that if Guards with current game mechanics end up with a bit more mitigation, and a lot less avoidance, then we will be hurting. Will this happen? I don't know. Reducing damage is nice, but totally being un-damaged and un-affected by a hit is also key. This discussion is in fact... so last month, no wait the month before last. http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=10344&view=by_date_ascending&page=1

[Shizzirri]

I honestly don't have any idea where your getting the 50%ish mitigation mines usually higher than that in most solo situations not sure on the exact number not to mentions mosts monks duel wield therefore the subject themselves to more riposte damage than a guardian who in most tanking situations uses a shield and a one handed weapon, this whole thing is silly actually

[Raahl]

<P>Don't trust the numbers on test.  If I remember correctly it only has a small portion of the combat changes in place.</P> <P> </P> <P>Guardians should have high mitigation and low avoidance.</P> <P>Monks should have low mitigation and high avoidance.</P>

[Knightrid]

<P>It's not really that surprising is it?</P> <P>Brawlers already have :</P> <P>DPS equal to that of a scout</P> <P>Higher avoidance than anyone</P> <P>Able to tank as well as a plate wearer in everyday group situations</P> <P>The ability to heal themselves and feign death</P> <P>Their own perosonal line of armor (which no one else has)</P> <P>Hmm, I wonder if any of the developers/GMs play bralwers?</P> <P>My sources tell me YES!!!</P> <P>Heisenberg 50 Guardian</P> <P>Dirac 50 Warlock</P>

[Ashtu]

<P>I bought some insurance, I have a guardian and a monk.  :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lagerone wrote:<BR> <P>Dear Guardians,</P> <P>Pooch isn't posting here to incite a flame war at all, quite the opposite.  But there is a very influencial minority of Monks/Bruisers who apparently want your job.</P> <P>I am <STRONG>not</STRONG> among those.  I <STRONG>do not</STRONG> want to tank raid mobs, but there are some L50 Brawlers pushing to redefine our roll in that way. </P> <P>Might be in your interest to check out what they are trying to do and protect yourselves.</P> <P>Anyway, it is up to you guys....</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I was here before you talking about these same things, and I'll be here after you.  The "influencial minority" of the brawler forums (two of which got invited by SOE to the CS) have been talking about some sort of tanking equality (as in us not getting one hit by raid mobs) since January.</P> <P>So get over yourself and your crusade as if you are some new found herald trying to rid the town of some menace.</P> <P>Besides, I don't want to nerf guardians, one of my best friends in game is one.  I just want to be able to tank, since I'm a fighter.  They are going to lower our DPS anyway; so I think getting some tanking ability in exchange is a lot better than getting the shaft.</P> <P>I love this thread though, its been awhile since we've had one of these.</P> <P>Oh, and I always get a kick out of reading your old posts in the Berserker forums:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lagerone wrote:<BR> <DIV>I need to reroll now but i'm not sure what class to pick - what is now the highest DPS fighter class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would it be Bruiser or Shadowknight (and no, I dont want to play a scout)?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is now intended to be the highest DPS fighter - I do not want to make another mistake.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Alucia</DIV> <DIV>25 Beserker</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You ever going to figure out that fighters aren't meant to be DPS?  Maybe you'll be rolling that scout after all <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:35 PM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

Well, Poochymama, since you decided to cross-post, I'll follow along.First off, the Big Combat Revamp is turned off on the Test server "right now." If you're seeing Guardians on Test with 25% Avoidance right now then the Guardians are doing something screwy because they're operating under the same combat rules as Live. You don't see Guardians on Live with 25% Avoidance right now, do you?Secondly, don't exaggerate. Monks do not kill mobs twice as fast as Guardians. It doesn't happen when soloing (unless the Guardian doesn't know what s/he's doing) and it particularly doesn't happen when grouping (with the Guardian or Monk tanking), as other party members' DPS diminishes the difference between Monks and Guardians significantly. Therefore, Monks don't take half the number of strikes that Guardians do, they take maybe 4/5, or at most, 3/4 of the strikes Guardians do.Finally, I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but you should go back and question them. There will be a 15% base difference in Mitigation between Heavy and Light armor. If the Monk had about 45% Mitigation then the Guardian should have had around 60% Mitigation; if the Guardian had about 50% Mitigation then the Monk should have had around 35% Mitigation. Since the spell/CA changes haven't even hit Test yet the difference should be even bigger as Guardians currently get more Mitigation buffs than Monks do (in fact, I don't think a Monk gets any Mitigation buffs, save the one that stuns them while it's up, the Face of the Mountain line).Don't go quoting numbers that are obviously wrong about a system that is currently turned off and then exaggerate about the results; it only decreases your credibility.

[ugl]

<P>Its like living in a apartment building, and the people are across the hallway are always fighting, yelling and partying.  And sometimes the riftraft rolls through your door and land in your living room, spilling beer all over the carpet and flicking ashes in the floor.</P> <P>Get yer redkneck brawler arses up off our carpet before we call the cops.    Cant you all maintain?  :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P>And get out of the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] pretzels and go home, no, we dont have any old milwaukees best...</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>again, poochymomma, I agree totally, but, this topic has been beat to death a hundred times..  Go search the guard forums, tons of threads complete with spitting' eye gouging, points, counter points, sarcasm and whitty remarks..</DIV> <DIV>Nothing changed since then, and most opinions are probably still the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>uglak wrote:<P>Its like living in a apartment building, and the people are across the hallway are always fighting, yelling and partying. And sometimes the riftraft rolls through your door and land in your living room, spilling beer all over the carpet and flicking ashes in the floor.Get yer redkneck brawler arses up off our carpet before we call the cops. Cant you all maintain?<hr></blockquote>ROFLMAO! <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ugl]

<P>Whats up man, still got the zerker/monk thing going?   I take it you still havent broke out a guardian yet?</P> <P> </P> <P>But, glad to see you still around.</P>

[FamilyManFir]

Nope, no Guardian yet, just my Monk and Zerker, and most recently a Fury. I'm a roleplayer at heart and Guardians just don't inspire me. I keep an occasional eye on the Guardian board, though; there's some keen minds here, even if some of you are a bit touchy about the whole Monk/Guardian thing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Good to see you too.

[Poochymama]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR>Well, Poochymama, since you decided to cross-post, I'll follow along.<BR><BR>First off, the Big Combat Revamp is turned off on the Test server "right now." If you're seeing Guardians on Test with 25% Avoidance right now then the Guardians are doing something screwy because they're operating under the same combat rules as Live. You don't see Guardians on Live with 25% Avoidance right now, do you?<BR><BR>Secondly, don't exaggerate. Monks do not kill mobs twice as fast as Guardians. It doesn't happen when soloing (unless the Guardian doesn't know what s/he's doing) and it particularly doesn't happen when grouping (with the Guardian or Monk tanking), as other party members' DPS diminishes the difference between Monks and Guardians significantly. Therefore, Monks don't take half the number of strikes that Guardians do, they take maybe 4/5, or at most, 3/4 of the strikes Guardians do.<BR><BR>Finally, I don't know where you're getting your numbers, but you should go back and question them. There will be a 15% base difference in Mitigation between Heavy and Light armor. If the Monk had about 45% Mitigation then the Guardian should have had around 60% Mitigation; if the Guardian had about 50% Mitigation then the Monk should have had around 35% Mitigation. Since the spell/CA changes haven't even hit Test yet the difference should be even bigger as Guardians currently get more Mitigation buffs than Monks do (in fact, I don't think a Monk gets any Mitigation buffs, save the one that stuns them while it's up, the Face of the Mountain line).<BR><BR>Don't go quoting numbers that are obviously wrong about a system that is currently turned off and then exaggerate about the results; it only decreases your credibility.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>First off when i first made this post thats how it was on test. Secondly im not exaggerating a guardian with full legendary armor will hover around 50% mitigation. A monk with full legendary armor will hover around 40% mitigation. A monk with full fabled armor will be at about 45% mitigation and a guard with full fabled armor will be around 55% mitigation. And  as far as monks killing a solo mob twice as fast, thats true because monks usually parse twice as high as a guardian. If anything they need to fix the way avoidance scales with lvl, and then monks need to be nerfed not upgraded.

[Gaige]

<P>For one, guardians can DPS just about as good as us.  Sigon is often within 10%~ of my DPS on raids.</P> <P>For two, now you are asking for a monk nerf?  That's nice.</P> <P>For three I doubt you play on test, as all your numbers and information are inaccurate, so how about you just shush up, with your flame threads and nerf calls.</P>

[Nazo]

<P>Having lots of alts I read almost all the class boards.</P> <P>You can see posts by this guys in :</P> <P>Warlocks forums asking for Warlock DPS increase</P> <P>Wizard forums asking why Warlock DPS is so high and why arent Warlocks nerfed</P> <P>He seems to be getting some kick out of threads like this :smileyvery-happy:</P>

[ugl]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>For one, guardians can DPS just about as good as us.  Sigon is often within 10%~ of my DPS on raids.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>This is BS. do not post garbage like that here.   If sigon within 10% of your dps, either a: he in a group with better buffs then you,( like zerjer haste buffs)  b: you suck    c: he has much, much better equipment then you</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>I would guess all of the above.  They probably cannot get you to even close your mouth on a raid and hit your CA's.</FONT></P> <P>For two, now you are asking for a monk nerf?  That's nice.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>A statement like this from someone been crying/whining about guardian nerfs for 6 months?  Yes, if you tanking ability is going to shoot up, your DPS better be rolling down.  Waay down.  Your the biggest nerf advocate these boards have ever seen/</FONT></P> <P>For three I doubt you play on test, as all your numbers and information are inaccurate, so how about you just shush up, with your flame threads and nerf calls.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Everyone doesnt get the "red carpet" treatment to come play on test with a character copy.   Want a cookie for your recent guild transfer?  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>And we already know your stuffs inaccurate from past posts and BS you have said.  </FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Here we go again....  :smileysad:</P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:33 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>uglak wrote:</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>This is BS. do not post garbage like that here.   If sigon within 10% of your dps, either a: he in a group with better buffs then you,( like zerjer haste buffs)  b: you suck    c: he has much, much better equipment then you.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff33>I would guess all of the above.  They probably cannot get you to even close your mouth on a raid and hit your CA's.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Ask him yourself.  I have two fabled weapons and 10 Adept 3s CAs.  As for zerker haste I have my own that is in the 40s % wise.  Our groups (except MT) are normally pretty well rounded.  I don't give a crap if you think I'm lying or not.  Sigon can break 200 dps fairly often, especially in the Zek raid.  So yes, my statement was the truth.  As for "not closing my mouth and hitting my CAs" I routinely use my CA's as they refresh, and I'm one of the rare ones that actually can and does go OOM.  Care to put your foot in your mouth anymore?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>A statement like this from someone been crying/whining about guardian nerfs for 6 months?  Yes, if you tanking ability is going to shoot up, your DPS better be rolling down.  Waay down.  Your the biggest nerf advocate these boards have ever seen.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Sure, that's right.  I haven't been asking for monks to get made into better tanks, just for guardians to be nerfed.  Yeah right.  I was one of the first proponents for different raid mob types (to facilitate different types of tanks) and I was one of the first monks to state on these forums that our DPS should be lowered (or scouts raised), so don't even go there.  And "waaay" down is ludicrous, since SKs routinely outdamage me, as do zerkers, not to mention guardians coming close (when not tanking).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Everyone doesnt get the "red carpet" treatment to come play on test with a character copy.   Want a cookie for your recent guild transfer?  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>And we already know your stuffs inaccurate from past posts and BS you have said.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I didn't say anything about playing on test, I merely stated my doubts that the OP has first hand test server experience.  No, I don't need any cookies for joining FoH.  Thanks though.  As for my "stuff" being inaccurate, whatever you say slick.  You are one of the biggest advocates of talking trash without nothing to back it up but craziness.  So why would your opinion matter to me.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:59 AM</span>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>uglak wrote:</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>This is BS. do not post garbage like that here.   If sigon within 10% of your dps, either a: he in a group with better buffs then you,( like zerjer haste buffs)  b: you suck    c: he has much, much better equipment then you.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff33>I would guess all of the above.  They probably cannot get you to even close your mouth on a raid and hit your CA's.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Ask him yourself.  I have two fabled weapons and 10 Adept 3s CAs.  As for zerker haste I have my own that is in the 40s % wise.  Our groups (except MT) are normally pretty well rounded.  I don't give a crap if you think I'm lying or not.  Sigon can break 200 dps fairly often, especially in the Zek raid.  So yes, my statement was the truth.  As for "not closing my mouth and hitting my CAs" I routinely use my CA's as they refresh, and I'm one of the rare ones that actually can and does go OOM.  Care to put your foot in your mouth anymore?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>A statement like this from someone been crying/whining about guardian nerfs for 6 months?  Yes, if you tanking ability is going to shoot up, your DPS better be rolling down.  Waay down.  Your the biggest nerf advocate these boards have ever seen.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Sure, that's right.  I haven't been asking for monks to get made into better tanks, just for guardians to be nerfed.  Yeah right.  I was one of the first proponents for different raid mob types (to facilitate different types of tanks) and I was one of the first monks to state on these forums that our DPS should be lowered (or scouts raised), so don't even go there.  And "waaay" down is ludicrous, since SKs routinely outdamage me, as do zerkers, not to mention guardians coming close (when not tanking).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Everyone doesnt get the "red carpet" treatment to come play on test with a character copy.   Want a cookie for your recent guild transfer?  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>And we already know your stuffs inaccurate from past posts and BS you have said.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I didn't say anything about playing on test, I merely stated my doubts that the OP has first hand test server experience.  No, I don't need any cookies for joining FoH.  Thanks though.  As for my "stuff" being inaccurate, whatever you say slick.  You are one of the biggest advocates of talking trash without nothing to back it up but craziness.  So why would your opinion matter to me.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>06-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>03:59 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I do not care if my "opnion" matters to you or not.   But when you post BS, I will call it BS so others do not get confused.   And yes,  most of yours are in fact BS.   Including this one.     But, I will say, your a legend in your own mind.

[Sirrion77]

<div></div>At the end of the day, nerf or no nerf, there is only 1 (or maybe 2) MT by raid, and reading descriptions of each class, Guardian should be the best class to the do the job. Other tank class should be able to do MT too, it's just going to be easier for a guardian. After the class revamp, if any other class is better MT than guardian, it's just going to be temporary and i wouldn't worry about it. Gage, you should be ashame saying that guardian does only 10% less DPS. You are obviously doing something wrong or you are just focusing on 1 mob resistant to blunt. On single targets monk/bruiser is currently the best DPS. What's your parser showing? Monk/bruiser can do close to 300 DPS when the best guardian can do is 200DPS with fail. ZEK is a very bad example for DPS parsing and you know it, all skills used in Zek are not intended to be used on other raids (Tremor, taunting assault). Don't bring zek for DPS arguments As for me, guardian can do 10 DPS i don't care as long as we can keep agro. Last advice, if you expect monk to MT you are deadly wrong, reroll a tank class. If you look at all fantasy books/games monk are not meant to be MT. I think it was a mistake from Sony to put it in the fighter archtype, they should have created a specific archtype for them. They should be the ultimate pullers but Sony see that as cheat i guess<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sirriun <div></div><p>Message Edited by Sirrion77 on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 AM</span>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR>Nope, no Guardian yet, just my Monk and Zerker, and most recently a Fury. I'm a roleplayer at heart and Guardians just don't inspire me. I keep an occasional eye on the Guardian board, though; there's some keen minds here, even if some of you are a bit touchy about the whole Monk/Guardian thing. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Good to see you too.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hrmm, never going to come to the dark side eh?    Glad your still around, even though we have to argue most of the time.  <DIV> :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Glad some peeps still enjoy the game,  as well as arguing on messageboards while your stuck at work. </DIV>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Poochymama p wrote:First off when i first made this post thats how it was on test. Secondly im not exaggerating a guardian with full legendary armor will hover around 50% mitigation. A monk with full legendary armor will hover around 40% mitigation. A monk with full fabled armor will be at about 45% mitigation and a guard with full fabled armor will be around 55% mitigation. And as far as monks killing a solo mob twice as fast, thats true because monks usually parse twice as high as a guardian. If anything they need to fix the way avoidance scales with lvl, and then monks need to be nerfed not upgraded. <hr></blockquote>Poochymama, as near as I can tell, you first posted this on 6/19. The combat changes on Test have been turned off since <b>5/13</b>. Since your first post on these forums is on 5/14 I find it highly doubtful that you have any first-hand information or, for that matter, second-hand information, on how the Big Combat Revamp affects mitigation or avoidance.Secondly, Monks usually parse twice as high as a Guardian because, in a group together, Monks are doing DPS and Guardians are tanking. I repeat, when soloing, Monks' DPS is <i>not</i> 2x that of Guardians', it's more around 1.25x; moreover, when grouping, the DPS difference between a Monk and a Guardian <b>when performing the same role</b> is even less significant because it is eclipsed by the other party members' DPS.Once again, based on the info in the Test Server Update Notes about the Big Combat Revamp, the unbuffed mitigation difference between a Monk wearing Light Armor and a Guardian wearing Heavy Armor of similar quality should be about 15%. Since you're quoting numbers at (previously) 5% to (now) 10% it appears to me that your base info is wrong. Either wait until the Big Combat Revamp is reactivated (should be soon according to Moorgard) and get some new numbers or go ask some <i>different</i> testers what their mitigation and avoidance was while the Big Combat Revamp was active.Until then, these posts are just flames seeking attention.

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirrion77 wrote:<BR> At the end of the day, nerf or no nerf, there is only 1 (or maybe 2) MT by raid, and reading descriptions of each class, Guardian should be the best class to the do the job.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Descriptions are flavor for roleplaying, not key to class balance.</FONT><BR><BR>Other tank class should be able to do MT too, it's just going to be easier for a guardian.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Of course, that's a given.  Hopefully they can add some raid mobs where guardians aren't the preferred tank, but I'm not holding my breath.</FONT><BR><BR>After the class revamp, if any other class is better MT than guardian, it's just going to be temporary and i wouldn't worry about it.  <FONT color=#ffff00>We don't have to tank better, just close.</FONT><BR><BR>Gage, you should be ashame saying that guardian does only 10% less DPS. You are obviously doing something wrong or you are just focusing on 1 mob resistant to blunt. <FONT color=#ffff00>Why would blunt resistant matter?  I can do all 3 damage types.  I've seen plenty of parses with Sigon around 214~ and me around 241~ dps.  Wooo big difference isn't it?</FONT><BR><BR>On single targets monk/bruiser is currently the best DPS. What's your parser showing? Monk/bruiser can do close to 300 DPS when the best guardian can do is 200DPS with fail.<FONT color=#ffff00>  Yup, I've done close to 300 (never broke it) and I've seen Sigon do almost 220.  Wow, such a big DPS difference between our classes, its almost as big as the tanking differences /sarcasm</FONT><BR><BR>ZEK is a very bad example for DPS parsing and you know it, all skills used in Zek are not intended to be used on other raids (Tremor, taunting assault). Don't bring zek for DPS arguments  <FONT color=#ffff00>Who cares?  It doesn't matter, its one instance, we do every 36 hours, where well played guardians can almost DPS equally to a monk.  Please tell me any instance, where a x4 can be tanked successfully by a monk, let alone that lets a monk tank equally well to a guardian.  I'll help you out, there isn't.</FONT><BR><BR>As for me, guardian can do 10 DPS i don't care as long as we can keep agro.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Funny, my feelings about monks also.  I rolled a fighter to tank, if I wanted to do melee DPS I'd have rolled a scout.</FONT><BR><BR>Last advice, if you expect monk to MT you are deadly wrong, reroll a tank class. If you look at all fantasy books/games monk are not meant to be MT.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I'm not reading a book, and I'm not playing another game, I'm playing EQ2.  The devs said monks are tanks in this game, not me.</FONT><BR><BR>I think it was a mistake from Sony to put it in the fighter archtype, they should have created a specific archtype for them. They should be the ultimate pullers but Sony see that as cheat i guess<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yeah, well I think it was a mistake to put guardians in the fighter archetype, I think all you should be able to do give mitigation to other people, a buff bot if you will.  Seems like we all have bad ideas, eh?</FONT><BR><BR>Sirriun <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Sirrion77]

<span>Well   how i understand it, monk should be good MT due to it's avoidance (100% i guess) and Guardian for it's mitigation. Right now Guardian can get 95% mitig and 100% avoid (won't even talk about defence). The only instance where monk would be good MT is when you have 20 adds or ^^^ hitting very fast and low dmg, but with smart positioning of mob half would hit you back ... so not viable, for the ^^^ reactive would trigger a lot faster so no need avoid. They just stated Monk is in group 3 for DPS as for other fighters it's  in group 4. Monk can tank for single groups, not raid. I doubt they ever will sorry. Sirriun</span><div></div>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Sirrion77 wrote:Gage, you should be ashame saying that guardian does only 10% less DPS. You are obviously doing something wrong or you are just focusing on 1 mob resistant to blunt.<hr></blockquote>10% less seems a little small, although it might be true raid-buffed, I'm not sure. However, a Monk focusing on DPS will only do about 25% to 30% more DPS than a Guardian focusing on DPS, based on my, admittedly limited, info.<blockquote><hr>On single targets monk/bruiser is currently the best DPS. What's your parser showing? Monk/bruiser can do close to 300 DPS when the best guardian can do is 200DPS with fail.<hr></blockquote>Ain't numbers great? If a Monk does "close" to 300 DPS, say 290, and a Guardian can do a little over 200 DPS, say 210 (although Gage says they can hit 220), then the Monk is doing 38% more DPS than the Guardian (32% if the Guardian can hit 220). That's a little high by my estimates but nowhere near the 100% ("twice the DPS") that people like to bandy about - not you, Sirrion, but others in this thread.<blockquote><hr>As for me, guardian can do 10 DPS i don't care as long as we can keep agro.<hr></blockquote>I'd think that you <i>would</i> care since otherwise you're stuck competing for that 1 or 2 Tank slots in a group/raid. However, if you don't care, others do. One-trick classes that fill extremely limited slots don't do well; they <i>certainly</i> aren't balanced.<blockquote><hr>Last advice, if you expect monk to MT you are deadly wrong, reroll a tank class.<hr></blockquote>I take umbrage with this comment, Sirrion. In EQ2 a Monk is a Fighter, ergo a Tank class. You may think that Monks shouldn't be in the Fighter Archetype, fine, but you didn't design the game, SOE did. The fact is that, in EQ2, Monks are Tanks. Deal with it.

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote: <blockquote><font color="#ffff00">Descriptions are flavor for roleplaying, not key to class balance.</font> </blockquote> <hr></blockquote>That's not true of other  archtypes.  For example, there's a huge difference between wizards and coercers, or trobadours and brigands.  Why should the fighter tree have so much less variety that it all it ammounts to is "flavor for roleplaying"?  <span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<font color="#ffff00">Yup, I've done close to 300 (never broke it) and I've seen Sigon do almost 220.  Wow, such a big DPS difference between our classes, its almost as big as the tanking differences /sarcasm</font> <hr></blockquote>That's a 36% difference actually.  I'd be willing to accept monks tanking within 36% of the ability of guardians I suppose... <span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:  <font color="#ffff00">Who cares?  It doesn't matter, its one instance, we do every 36 hours, where well played guardians can almost DPS equally to a monk.  Please tell me any instance, where a x4 can be tanked successfully by a monk, let alone that lets a monk tank equally well to a guardian.  I'll help you out, there isn't.</font> <hr></blockquote></span>It suppose it would be nice if there were one or maybe two instances in the game were monks could tank within 10% of the ability of guardians. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote:<blockquote> <font color="#ffff00">I'm not reading a book, and I'm not playing another game, I'm playing EQ2.  The devs said monks are tanks in this game, not me.</font></blockquote><hr></blockquote>So what are monks right now, if not tanks?   They're not the best raid main-tanks around, but they're definately not scouts!</span> P.S. Am I the only one that thinks leather should be useable for furniture?  </span><span>Ebon is good for sconces, lanterns, warrior armor, cleric armor, chain armor, weapons for many classes, etc.  </span><span>Right now, leather is only good for crappy bandoleers and brawler armor.   Darnit!  Where's my sofa!?! </span><div></div>

[ugl]

<P>Well, glad to see the story went from 10% difference to around a 1/3 percent 30%+  difference.</P> <P>Much closer to the truth, although still a bit skewed I would say, depending on the encounter.</P> <P>  </P>

[FamilyManFir]

I have to admit, even with the upcoming Big Combat Revision, I'm not sure that Monks or Bruisers will ever really be able to be raid tanks. The simple fact is that, because Monks' Damage Dissipation primarily comes from Avoidance, Monks are subject to the damage streak. In normal groups that's manageable; in raids against normal mobs it's deadly.You could design raid mobs that would be best tanked by a Monk, easy: just make the raid mob hit fast and light and have it bypass most or all of a tank's Mitigation. Done! (When you implement this, SOE, I'll send you my bill. <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />)The only idea I've seen or had to allow Monks to tank normal raid mobs is to reduce the timer on the Face of the Mountain/Stone Stance CA line (and the Brawlers' equivalent) and maybe increase its potency a bit. For the non-Monks out there, FotM/Stone Stance gives the Monk huge bonuses to Mitigation but stuns and stifles the Monk. That way the raid-tanking Monk could hit Stone Stance when a damage streak hit to give the healers time to heal him/her up. I don't <i>think</i> it would overpower the Monk as s/he is unable to continue building hate while Stone Stance is up so the Monk wouldn't want to use it too often or face losing aggro.However, unless the devs surprise me, even after the Big Combat Revamp I have significant doubts that Monks will be viable raid tanks.

[Sirrion77]

<span><blockquote><hr>FamilyManFirst wrote:<blockquote><hr>Sirrion77 wrote:Gage, you should be ashame saying that guardian does only 10% less DPS. You are obviously doing something wrong or you are just focusing on 1 mob resistant to blunt.<hr></blockquote>10% less seems a little small, although it might be true raid-buffed, I'm not sure. However, a Monk focusing on DPS will only do about 25% to 30% more DPS than a Guardian focusing on DPS, based on my, admittedly limited, info.<blockquote><hr>On single targets monk/bruiser is currently the best DPS. What's your parser showing? Monk/bruiser can do close to 300 DPS when the best guardian can do is 200DPS with fail.<hr></blockquote>Ain't numbers great? If a Monk does "close" to 300 DPS, say 290, and a Guardian can do a little over 200 DPS, say 210 (although Gage says they can hit 220), then the Monk is doing 38% more DPS than the Guardian (32% if the Guardian can hit 220). That's a little high by my estimates but nowhere near the 100% ("twice the DPS") that people like to bandy about - not you, Sirrion, but others in this thread.<blockquote><hr>As for me, guardian can do 10 DPS i don't care as long as we can keep agro.<hr></blockquote>I'd think that you <i>would</i> care since otherwise you're stuck competing for that 1 or 2 Tank slots in a group/raid. However, if you don't care, others do. One-trick classes that fill extremely limited slots don't do well; they <i>certainly</i> aren't balanced.<blockquote><hr>Last advice, if you expect monk to MT you are deadly wrong, reroll a tank class.<hr></blockquote>I take umbrage with this comment, Sirrion. In EQ2 a Monk is a Fighter, ergo a Tank class. You may think that Monks shouldn't be in the Fighter Archetype, fine, but you didn't design the game, SOE did. The fact is that, in EQ2, Monks are Tanks. Deal with it.<hr></blockquote></span> That's right i'm designing the game, but monk are not raid MTs (single group, yes) that's a reality. Looks like it won't be for the next revamp either, again i didn't design it. I was talking about 10 DPS when MTing. I think the optimal DPS for a guardian is 100, but then again new lvl 50 guardian would do 70 while the uber 8 month old guardian will do 130. Hard to be fair on that. Monk is in the fighter archtype i think it shouldn't (that's my own opinion, i can have one right?), but when i organise a raid to me they are uber DPS (the best one atm) to put with DPS buff classes group. Sirriun <span></span><div></div>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>uglak wrote: <P>Well, glad to see the story went from 10% difference to around a 1/3 percent 30%+ difference.</P> <P>Much closer to the truth, although still a bit skewed I would say, depending on the encounter.</P> <P> </P> <hr></blockquote><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, well, <i>my</i> story stated a 30% difference. AFAIK Gage is still at 10%. Moreover, that's as it should be. Moorgard has said that the differences in DPS and Tanking between Guardians/Paladins and Monks/Bruisers shouldn't be "gaping chasms." Guardians are <i>supposed</i> to be reasonably close to Monks in the DPS department. It's just that few Guardians are interested in doing DPS, so they see their Tanking DPS and think it's horrible. P.S. The "as it should be" comment was referring to the 30%, not the 10%. Just wanted to make that clear.<p>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:58 PM</span><p>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:59 PM</span>

[ugl]

<P>Just to show you what are parses come up with in a normal raid for us.</P> <P>a offtank guardian equiped with some fabled items and a royal great flail (fabled 2 hand crush) will normally push out 140-155 DPS on a encounter involving alot of mobs.</P> <P>A monk will usually get in the 250-300 range...   </P> <P>MT guards can actually get  to 200 or do if they have alot of fabled proccing gear on AND the encounter has tons of mobs hitting them, such as meeting of the minds.</P> <P> </P> <P>/shrugs   (Yea, aside from the your guards must suck comments, thats pretty much the average of it)</P> <P> </P>

[FamilyManFir]

<blockquote><hr>Sirrion77 wrote:Monk is in the fighter archtype i think it shouldn't (that's my own opinion, i can have one right?), but when i organise a raid to me they are uber DPS (the best one atm) to put with DPS buff classes group.<hr></blockquote>You are certainly entitled to your own opinion, Sirrion, just don't let it divorce you from reality (did I really say that about a fantasy MMORPG? <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />). The fact is Monks are in the Fighter Archetype and that won't change. As such, they should be able to do the job of any Fighter, i.e. Tank. They ought to be able to tank solo, in groups, and in raids, although I admit the last seems unlikely. Since they're Fighters DPS is, and should be, a secondary role.While they may be "uber DPS (the best one atm) to put with DPS buff classes group" now, according to Moorgard's DPS ranking that role will be significantly reduced in the upcoming Big Combat Revision as others surpass Monks in the DPS department. Since Monks are going down, relatively at least, in DPS it seems only fair to improve their tanking, doesn't it?

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P>Well, glad to see the story went from 10% difference to around a 1/3 percent 30%+  difference.</P> <P>Much closer to the truth, although still a bit skewed I would say, depending on the encounter.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I've seen, for a fact, Sigon doing 214 to my 241.</P> <P>Regardless its not the *HUGE* difference in DPS abilities that guardians would lead you to believe.</P> <P>Even if its 50%, there is no way we tank within 50% of a guardian, not even close.<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P>A monk will usually get in the 250-300 range... </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>300 is rare for a monk, 250 is doable on some raids.  But then again 200+ is doable for some guardians too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers can come closer to 300 and eclipse it in my experience.</DIV>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P>Well, glad to see the story went from 10% difference to around a 1/3 percent 30%+ difference.</P> <P>Much closer to the truth, although still a bit skewed I would say, depending on the encounter.</P> <P></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, well, <I>my</I> story stated a 30% difference. AFAIK Gage is still at 10%.<BR><BR>Moreover, that's as it should be. Moorgard has said that the differences in DPS and Tanking between Guardians/Paladins and Monks/Bruisers shouldn't be "gaping chasms." Guardians are <I>supposed</I> to be reasonably close to Monks in the DPS department. It's just that few Guardians are interested in doing DPS, so they see their Tanking DPS and think it's horrible.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Well, as I said, parses can be "stacked", variables like what classes you have in the group, what encounter your on, equipment type,   how hard the people are trying to push it, etc. would all effect the outcome of a parce.   30% difference I can swallow, although it still seems a bit off.   10% difference, ermm...   dunno bout all that, unless the variables were stacked against the monk bigtime, or it was a once in awhile fluke or something.</P> <P>/shrugs</P> <P><BR>We got a couple means monks..    They destroy stuff, and, unlike other DPS'rs, they do not draw aggro and such, they do clean DPS.  Also are used for MA and such.   Theyre also my buddies, and I would have no problem with seeing them tank a encounter or two a night and let the guards hit the /assist key awhile.  But, first priority is winning, so we go with whatever makes sense to win.</P>

[Ibis]

<DIV>Not quite sure what this is about but I saw my name.  I confirm the amount of DPS I can do as related by Gage.  Mostly this has to do with Area Effect abilities I use, and of course it is assisted by haste and other buffs relating to my prowess in melee.  Guardians are by no means gimped in DPS atm, though I'm sure that will change as the combat changes become real.  I shouldn't easily and constantly outperform scouts and some mages.  Wizards, for example, are nowhere near warlocks in DPS, and I believe they are meant to be.</DIV>

[Shizzirri]

<P>When a guardian (the MT for that matter) can out dp's a wizard, well, um hmm.......</P> <P>I'll leave that one alone but something there doesn't seem quite right.</P>

[Gaige]

Sigon is talking about when he isn't MT, but he is at the raid.  So when he is doing the same thing I am, which is dealing melee damage.

[Sirrion77]

oh no, please don't bring the Wizard/Warlock DPS discussion here<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sirriun <div></div>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P>A monk will usually get in the 250-300 range... </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>300 is rare for a monk, 250 is doable on some raids.  But then again 200+ is doable for some guardians too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers can come closer to 300 and eclipse it in my experience.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><FONT size=3>200+ dps by a guardian?  Hmm, best i have done at lvl 45 is 72dps, cant wait to see my 300% upgrade by 50.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Skeptical about your so called facts…:smileymad:</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3><FONT size=4> <P><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>/cynical on</FONT></FONT></P></FONT></FONT> <P><FONT size=3>Oh wait I got 300dps on a lvl 20 gray mob, maybe I should stick to gray mobs 25 levels below me. On the blue heroics I can only achieve 60-70dps, hmm I must be doing something wrong. I don’t understand the difference, someone explain my errors, preferable from someone who doesn’t play the class.  Oh wait, if I get into a raid I can acheive 200+ dps for that <1% of the game content from other classes buffs.  Hmm, I need to figure out a way to keep them raid buffs without being in a raid, how can i do that, because I want to keep my dps over 200+ in all aspects of the game.</FONT></P><FONT size=4> <P><FONT size=2><FONT size=3>/cynical off</FONT></FONT></P></FONT> <P>STOP saying gards have good dps, they dont.  In 99% of the game content, i.e. not raiding and without the 50 raid buffs, our dps is one of the lowest.  A fury can do more dps then a gard.  Im not trying to get a dps increase, just trying to stop the misinformation.  I choose my gard for defense, that is it, I knew the dps was low.  We dont compare to the other fighters in offense, not at all.  Gards are defined by their defense, thats it and everyone wants it nerfed. </P></DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:22 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>In case you missed it, Sigon (posts under Ibishi) who does play a lvl 50 guardian, did in fact confirm my statements about the DPS he is capable of doing, including 214ish.</P> <P>Thanks.</P>

[Sirrion77]

I comfirm 200 DPS as guardian, but with good DPS buffs from other classes and 2 hander fabled. Sirriun <div></div>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>In case you missed it, Sigon (posts under Ibishi) who does play a lvl 50 guardian, did in fact confirm my statements about the DPS he is capable of doing, including 214ish.</P> <P>Thanks.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Saw it, he is talking about raids and having 50 raid buffs as well as not using taunts.  Raids make up less then 1% of game content!  Compare gards in a small group or solo compared to other fighters dps, i.e. 99% of the game content.</P> <P>Problem is this Gage, you present this information like its common occurrence for high end gards. When the raid buffs are aligned, the fabled weapons in hand, adorned in full imbued armor, 5+ mobs for AE, and 100% haste then yes a gard can do 200dps. Gard dps is considerably less for a majority of the game situations, saying "gards have good dps I have seen it, they can do over 200" without putting into context is clear MISINFORMATION.</P> <P><BR>Thanks</P> <p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 PM</span>

[Ibis]

<DIV>I do more DPS per encounter on most single groups.  The AC on random group mobs is lower as are their levels, so my accuracy is better.  It depends on the encounter.  I do much better when I can AE.  Tremor, just by itself, is pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] devastating, especially since it was given a DoT.  I have been using Staff of the Boar or some such, from Nagalik, for my higher DPS numbers.  Only recently did I become able to get such numbers, and on a single +++ mob its not likely I'll get over 200.  Not without quite a few more adept 3s and a better weapon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage isn't exaggerating about the potential of the guardian class.</DIV>

[Nacoa]

<span><blockquote><hr>Nibblar wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Gage-Mikel wrote: <p>In case you missed it, Sigon (posts under Ibishi) who does play a lvl 50 guardian, did in fact confirm my statements about the DPS he is capable of doing, including 214ish.</p> <p>Thanks.</p> <div></div> <hr> </blockquote> <p>Saw it, he is talking about raids and having 50 raid buffs as well as not using taunts.  Raids make up less then 1% of game content!  Compare gards in a small group or solo compared to other fighters dps, i.e. 99% of the game content.</p><hr></blockquote>A guardian in a small group is operating in "tank mode", as such they can not reach their maximum DPS. Regardless, the argument is kinda silly.  It's sort of like asking which soapbox derby car will be faster when they're both lined up next to a few Indy cars.  They're both so much slower that the minor difference between them is irrelevant.</span><div></div>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Nacoa wrote: <P><SPAN>A guardian in a small group is operating in "tank mode", as such they can not reach their maximum DPS.<BR></SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hello sir, thank you for stating a universal truth of all fighters.</P> <P>None of us do as much DPS when tanking, because we have other [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] to do.</P> <P>Thanks.<BR></P>

[Nibbl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nacoa wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ff0000>A guardian in a small group is operating in "tank mode", as such they can not reach their maximum DPS.</FONT><BR><BR>Regardless, the argument is kinda silly.  It's sort of like asking which soapbox derby car will be faster when they're both lined up next to a few Indy cars.  They're both so much slower that the minor difference between them is irrelevant.<BR></SPAN></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I agree but the raid situations that are being presented as common occurrences is misleading. Right now my lvl 45 gard varies between 40-70dps, based on taunt usage, non to lots.</P> <P>People read these forums to create their classes, they should represent the classes accurately for majority of the game content and situations.</P>

[Gaige]

I agree, which is why I've been pointing out that monks are a tank class since release, and if the combat wasn't so broken, our DPS would be lackluster because we would be taunting also <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[ArcisFort]

<DIV>I use 2 imbune cedar crush and do around 100 dps......</DIV>

[Ibis]

<DIV>Something you need to consider, when the rest of the people you're with also kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] the mob dies sooner and your DPS is therefore higher because theirs is higher.  I am able to perform 200 dps, but these aren't controlled situations.  We'd have to go get the same mob or type of mobs, under as similar a situation as possible (solo) and see how our DPS compares.  One of the better test areas could be spiders or giants or many other of the new solo or older group mobs in Everfrost.  I'm personally unwilling to perform any such test because I could care less about the results.  I have performed 200+ DPS in several situations, but that is aided by the relatively high DPS of my guildmates in making the mob die faster.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still don't care about whatever monk vs. warrior discussion is going on here but the discussion on DPS of one guardian to another isn't one based on even remotely decent comparisons.  But if you're going to compare a guardian and a monk, I have (overall) better gear than gaige and on most raids we have similar DPS.  I'm a more than "average" equipped guardian.  There are plenty of guardians with more fabled than me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.</DIV>

[Dovifat]

Funny how some people try to compare <ul> <li>tanking</li> <li>non-raid-buffed</li> <li>average equipment</li> </ul> dps to <ul> <li>non-tanking</li> <li>raid-buffed ( dps team ) </li> <li>fabled stuff</li> </ul> dps. ps: I didn't see any indication anywhere that Monks currently do, or will ever tank better  than Guardians. The OP is a troll that smells a mile against the wind. <div></div>