View Full Version : Buff changes inc perhaps...
<DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=19394" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=testfeed&message.id=19394</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Finally!</DIV>
<P>None of the 4 stacked? Braskans and Return to Battle should stack imo, lvl 40 trait and lvl 47 upgrade is way to close not to. </P> <P>If they dont they need to let us respec in the same patch though, why is it such a problem to let people respec anyway, make it a long quest to 're-train' with other masters or something so people cant abuse it. Casters that didnt get their grp cures and stuff wishing they could now just isnt right, our lvl 40 trait that 99% of people picked because it stacked becoming near useless wont be very 'right' either.</P>
<DIV>lil birdie told me when the spell/skill change comes, we will all get respecs. </DIV>
<P>Sounds like a nerf to me..</P> <P> </P> <P>What are we wooting about?</P>
nerf its called placing alittle more balance in tank classes? cmon now warrior types ( guards and zerkers ) can stack 4 of the same line hp buffs? talk about a major hitpoint lead over and other fighter type.... now the question is will they do it right in the stacking or will they just mess it up and not allow any type of stacking at all ( as it is now 4 of the same spell line is wrong but not allowing the guard and zerker tier 5 hp buff to stack isnt right either ) Will wait and see <div></div>
SirDra
06-19-2005, 09:30 PM
I feel these abilites are what make us a tank. Are tanks not suppose to have superior hit points and defence over other classes? Hence the name "tank"... What ever i hope they dont screw us over to bad. Also be ready for the strength nerf. Less dps, hp, and defence for the win.
<DIV>Really the only problem I have with them not stacking is they dont scale well, lvl 19 battle tactics is 207hp, lvl 37 do or die 306hp, lvl 40 trait Braskans 363hp, and lvl 47 return to battle is 363hp.. That and we get 3 hp buffs within 10 levels of each other, the defense component doesnt stack while the hp's do, seems very intentional to me that they were originally meant to stack for a grand total to balance our class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now monks and knights cried about it so instead of upgrading SK lifetaps, doing nothing with paladin heals since they already own, and telling monks to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] theyre a different kind of tank with scout dps that should be whats getting nerfed, were the ones getting nerfed without any regard to everything we traded off for those abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every day looks more and more like were going to be knights without the utility, heals or dps after 'the patch'. EQ1 warriors pre-kunark here we come, maybe we'll get critical hits and we'll all feel better... At least we can throw an intervene on the paladin who will be tanking and take a few non mitigated hits for them before we're laying face down 2sec later.</DIV>
<DIV>The entire system is getting an overhaul (what I heard at the fanfair). We could end up with 1 major HP buff skill at the end. You also have to remember that Adept3 of the HP buffs are pretty lame upgrades from app1. The difference between app1 and adept 3 is suppose to be a large amount, so maybe we will see a large HP buff at the end.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A majority of the "stacking" issues fall when skills are being stacked. Def, parry, slash, etc etc.... I believe it was not intended for a group to stack up to 280+ def, making most mob melee trivial. I like "being uber" and tanking just about everything w/o an issue, but when healers are afk for almost any fight and the only person that needs to truely pay attention is the mtank (even that is a stretch)... there is something flawed in buffs/skill/mobs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A zerker wanting to talk about tank balance? ok... Lets start in your own closet however for adjustments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Noah,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt see anything about balance and high buff upgrades, or any other class/classes changes in your post. All I see is you saying guardian buffs werent stacking, and acting like its a good thing... And some kind of dig about guardians being overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know you have been swapping spit with gage lately, but geesh... You assume the problems with buff stacking fall in the guardians court? Looks like to me your saying EQ2 raid woes starts with guardians getting nerfed? You will have to excuse those of us that are not cheering you on with the "nerf the guards" crusade. I am sure gage is though. </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:45 PM</span>
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <DIV>A zerker wanting to talk about tank balance? ok... Lets start in your own closet however for adjustments.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Noah,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didnt see anything about balance and high buff upgrades, or any other class/classes changes in your post. All I see is you saying guardian buffs werent stacking, and acting like its a good thing... And some kind of dig about guardians being overpowered.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know you have been swapping spit with gage lately, but geesh... You assume the problems with buff stacking fall in the guardians court? Looks like to me your saying EQ2 raid woes starts with guardians getting nerfed? You will have to excuse those of us that are not cheering you on with the "nerf the guards" crusade. I am sure gage is though. </DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by uglak on <SPAN class=date_text>06-19-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>01:45 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as right now, don't you think buffing up 32 points of defense is a bit over the top? I mean that is buffing 6 lvls ... making your mit/ avoidance check a 56th lvl mob as if it was 50th. Since we hit 100% avoidance and 90% mitigation ... it kinda makes it easy to trivialize almost everything in eq2 unless it is nuking for 15k. I, for one, enjoy a nice challenge... I'm guessing you enjoy "god-mode". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could care less about monks/zerkers tanking. Last I checked that was Gage's crusade and not some anti guardian picket rally. Don't start throwing insults out when you know there is an issue with the game dynamics and well, PART of that issue is our buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Much Love,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as right now, don't you think buffing up 32 points of defense is a bit over the top? <FONT color=#ffff00>Maybe it is, guardians are not the only class with defense buffs. But yea, it seems to be our most powerful thing, stacking defense. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>What are we getting to make up for the nerf? OR does that put us "on par" with the other tanks now in yer opinion?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> I mean that is buffing 6 lvls ... making your mit/ avoidance check a 56th lvl mob as if it was 50th. Since we hit 100% avoidance and 90% mitigation ... it kinda makes it easy to trivialize almost everything in eq2 unless it is nuking for 15k. I, for one, enjoy a nice challenge... I'm guessing you enjoy "god-mode". <FONT color=#ffff00>Yea, wish we could all be as hardcore as you noah. Again, buff stacking is not a guardian problem, it is a game problem. There are alot more ways to get defense then a few guardian buffs.. You support a defense cap too then? Why is your trumpeted solution a "guardian buff stacking nerf"? </FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I could care less about monks/zerkers tanking. Last I checked that was Gage's crusade and not some anti guardian picket rally. Don't start throwing insults out when you know there is an issue with the game dynamics and well, PART of that issue is our buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Scary thing is you guys have the devs ear I think. Red carpet at the fainfair as well as getting to "test" the new content. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>I have never seen you flat out root for guardian nerfs before, but it appears your all for it now.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Much Love,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Watch the love comments, you will make gage jealous.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:18 PM</span>
Gaige
06-20-2005, 09:50 AM
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> uglak wrote: <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Watch the love comments, you will make gage jealous.</FONT></P> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV>Nah, why would I be jealous of you <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />
sylvo
06-20-2005, 12:13 PM
Dont take it personally Noah, The reason I think some people are going to be upset about this is because as usual changes at this fundamental level hit the guilds/players who havent "made it" yet hardest. I know for one that waay back when these changes were first talked about I made a push for 50 while it was still relatively easy. Im sure people can understand why changes need to be made, I for one am sick to death of having to stack 4 buffs on a 1 minute recast. Its just things will look a little grim (I for one know I am worried) until the whole picture is visible with complete skill/spell revamps for all and combat changes. I guess guardians want to know that they will still be at the forefront of tanking as that is where we chose to specialise, instead of picking any of the utility or added dps/ whatever that other classes chose. Farhane. <div></div>
<DIV>Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:42 AM</span>
ArcisFort
06-20-2005, 01:37 PM
<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Nazowa on <SPAN class=date_text>06-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:42 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I could not aggre more 5 stars man. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR> <DIV>Stacking those buffs up and keeping them up is something I dearly hate and extremely glad it is gonna go.....BUT</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ is a give and take world. If you are loosing something without getting something then that is a NERF. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Don't take this as a personal attack or anything Demos but your stance of "We are overpowered, I am tanking everything naked" is not good marketing for Guardians. SoE Class forums are like Diplomacy debates. If you keep shouting "We are overpowered" you may eventually get heard. Just check other class boards. Do they sound like anyone gives a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] care about balance ? They just want Earth Moon and all the Planets. In the end they will be getting more because they are shouting more. Since you are a very vocal guy in forums you will hurt the majority of Guardians badly if you keep on with this "I am able to tank mobs naked with one eye closed" attitude and posts.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you feel you are about to make another of those posts please remember : Not all your brothers and sisters are in full fabled, not all theirs skills are upgraded fully with rubies dropping form raids, they are not 100% supported by a team of 24 on raids.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P> <P>Message Edited by Nazowa on <SPAN class=date_text>06-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:42 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I got the adept 3s, some sprinkled fable and full ebon. I buff stack. I also tank epic mobs with 24 man raids. (rare spawn and instanced) I know my healers arent falling asleep at the keyboard when we are fighting these mobs. My bar still goes in the red. I think its more egoes talking on here then facts. But, thats probably do to noahs extreme guardian skillz..</P> <P> </P> <P>I heard they dont even use healers nowdays. noah stacks guardian buffs, strips off his armor, brings 23 warlocks and takes it all down.. </P> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 AM</span>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>edited double post</BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:31 AM</span>
Sirrion77
06-20-2005, 05:18 PM
T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic. Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =). Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun. 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do. I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy. This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items. Sirriun Paradigm - Guild Leader Unrest <div></div>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Sirrion77 wrote:<BR>T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>That logic apply just to guardians?</FONT><BR><BR>Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =).</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I am glad you got such confidence in that.</FONT><BR><BR>Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed? I am following you I think.</FONT></P> <P> 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Maybe this means they need to make new instances? Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek. The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek. And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats. To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to.</FONT></P> <P>I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy.<BR><BR>This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items.<BR><BR>Sirriun<BR>Paradigm - Guild Leader<BR>Unrest<BR><BR><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial. I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians. Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs. We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf.</DIV><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:16 AM</span>
Zaboo
06-20-2005, 05:48 PM
<DIV>Guardians themselves are <STRONG>not</STRONG> overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other classes.</DIV>
Skyrocket
06-20-2005, 06:10 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>I heard they dont even use healers nowdays. noah stacks guardian buffs, strips off his armor, brings 23 warlocks and takes it all down.. </P> <P>Message Edited by uglak on <SPAN class=date_text>06-20-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>06:32 AM</SPAN></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>Good to know that.....I will just be afk from now on and wait on the loooooot...................... :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <DIV>Spaniel</DIV> <DIV>50Templar</DIV>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Skyrocket wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Good to know that.....I will just be afk from now on and wait on the loooooot...................... :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P> <DIV>Spaniel</DIV> <DIV>50Templar</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I thought Noah just said that was the case now? All his healers are drooling in the keyboard while he tanks darathor naked?</P> <P> </P> <P>BTW, your sig picture looks cool as hell... <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>
Sirrion77
06-20-2005, 06:39 PM
<span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote: <blockquote> <hr> <p>Sirrion77 wrote:T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">That logic apply just to guardians? </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">It's guardian forum, i talk about guardians. E.G: Zerkers can stack hp buffs too, it shouldn't, not going for every class comboed with between classes hehe.</font> </font>Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =).</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">I am glad you got such confidence in that.</font>Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed? I am following you I think.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">If your raid force is not organised, a guardian in /godmode (E.G here, not a statement) won't help, but still nerf is needed... In EQ1(people that going to say it's not EQ1, good ideas can be taken from there, no?) plane of fear, even with well equiped players and very well organised raid party, was challenging and fun, even after zoning in there for the 50th time, clicking that portal was always making my heart go faster =).</font> </p> <p> 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Maybe this means they need to make new instances? Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek. The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek. And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. </font><font color="#ffff00">There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats. To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Agreed that's why i said just below, only half harder. I'm all for implementing new zones though instead =).</font> </p> <p>I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy.This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items.SirriunParadigm - Guild LeaderUnrest</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial. I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians. Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs. We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf.</div><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class="date_text">06-20-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:16 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Zaboo said </span> Guardians themselves are <strong>not</strong> overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other classes. <hr> It's change for all classes not only Guardians so everyone can see a "nerf" there, if everyone is "nerfed" well it's fair. Will just make things a bit harder (or not, who knows). Personnaly i see this as going out of Beta III and entering Release Candidate I. Sirriun <div></div>
RafaelSmith
06-20-2005, 06:42 PM
<span><blockquote><hr>Sirrion77 wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote: <blockquote> <hr> <p>Sirrion77 wrote:T2- T3 - T4 - T5 hp buffs are not meant to be stacking it's just logic.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">That logic apply just to guardians? </font></p> <p><font color="#ffff00"><font color="#ff0000">It's guardian forum, i talk about guardians. E.G: Zerkers can stack hp buffs too, it shouldn't, not going for every class comboed with between classes hehe.</font> </font>Guardian gonna go from 10k Hp to 9K Hp, still you can kill anything with that. Again i'm sure they are going to implement real upgrades for buff (APPI to MasterI), because 10hp gain doesn't cut it =).</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">I am glad you got such confidence in that.</font>Currently Guardians are overpowered, i'm sorry but once your raid force is well organised and know the startegy there is only 1 or 2 encounters that, when you zone in you "might" wipe, no fun.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">So, when you get that "raid force" (IE> other classes with buffs) organized/and stacking , as well as farm the encounter 50 times, it becomes easy, therefor guardians are overpowered and need enrfed? I am following you I think.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">If your raid force is not organised, a guardian in /godmode (E.G here, not a statement) won't help, but still nerf is needed... In EQ1(people that going to say it's not EQ1, good ideas can be taken from there, no?) plane of fear, even with well equiped players and very well organised raid party, was challenging and fun, even after zoning in there for the 50th time, clicking that portal was always making my heart go faster =).</font> </p> <p> 90% of instances now can almost be considered as trivial farm, life always at 100% and healers complaining they got nothing to do.</p> <p><font color="#ffff00">Maybe this means they need to make new instances? Sorry doing the same instance everynight for 60 days made it trivial for you guild. But, there are still upcoming guilds that need Zalak/drayek. The more experienced can do ones such as lavastorm and Zek. And when those get boring, its rarespawns and hopefully the devs adding new content. </font><font color="#ffff00">There challenge of the encounters is about on par with the loot the instances give anyways. All content, in MMORPG and muds before that become trivial once you figure out the strats. To combat that, you make new, stronger content for the players to progress to.</font></p> <p><font color="#ff0000">Agreed that's why i said just below, only half harder. I'm all for implementing new zones though instead =).</font> </p> <p>I understand there is casual guilds and guilds in the making, so 50% of instance should stay easy.This whole revamp purpose is in based on the next expension, otherwise what we will be at, 20khp 100% migit 100% avoid? No point to upgrade items.SirriunParadigm - Guild LeaderUnrest</p> <hr> </blockquote> <div>I can understand people that have been farming the instances for months calling the encounters trivial. I still dont see how your throwing the blame for this on guardians. Again, we are not the only ones that can stack buffs, including defense buffs. We are real impressed with everyones uberness and all, but not sure where that all ties into a guardian nerf.</div><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class="date_text">06-20-2005</span> <span class="time_text">07:16 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote>Zaboo said </span> Guardians themselves are <strong>not</strong> overpowered the issue is buffs from other classes when stacked on the guardian makes him overpowered. if a nerf is to come it does not need to come with the guardian's buffs but rather in certain other classes. <hr> It's change for all classes not only Guardians so everyone can see a "nerf" there, if everyone is "nerfed" well it's fair. Will just make things a bit harder (or not, who knows). Personnaly i see this as going out of Beta III and entering Release Candidate I. Sirriun <div></div><hr></blockquote>Ha your too kind. Ide say its more along the lines of....going out of Final Alpha and entering preliminary Beta =P Release Candidate I is still years away =P </span><div></div>
Shizzirri
06-20-2005, 07:17 PM
Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR> Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ohhhh, sorry, so I guess we all put those zerkers, conjurers and necros in our MT groups for their good looks? Wouldnt have anything to do with gaining a few thousand hitpoints eh?</P> <P>Also, so now its not the defense buffs making guardians unhittable, its the hitpoint buffs that are overpowering. We will get those nerfed up too for yas. Anything else ya need? I am sure once we get rid off all that defense and hitpoints, the games going to be so much better. </P> <P> Noah can sit the bench while gauge tanks...</P> <P> </P>
NM, I had posted some comments to everyone jumping down Noah's throat, but forget it. The ball is rolling people, deal with it.When dah nerf comes down, A chiwin' sound...<p>Message Edited by Migyb on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:51 AM</span>
<P>I understand where a lot of you guys are coming from. I love the class and hope we do stay in a "main tank" role even after the adjustments come.</P> <P>As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in. </P> <P>For those reasons I support a "change" in how buffs, healing, dps, hate works. The system is flawed right now. Does armor/gear make a difference? I guess in certain situations/mobs yeah, I can agree on that part. In largely though it is how skills get buffed way to high. Our stacking spells are a culprit in this matter (and others). I didn't post going into detail about all the other classes and what does/does not stack because 1) I only have personally tested guardians 2) this is the guardian forum. So, don't think I am singling out Guardians but merely informing you of what changes I saw hitting us directly (vs indirectly by other class's buffs).</P> <P>When the "final" changes hit, I am sure things will be a bit more challenging... but at the same time, as a whole, it will be tolerable and raids will continue to be done. Perhaps thou, there will be a touch of excitement...an epic will not die the 1st time it is tried...there will be a need for more than 1 tank... </P> <P>Anyway, appriciate the feed back. Please do not think my comments/ suggestions truely "change" the game. You would only grow my ego more <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sure I have tested stuff but in the end the devs are the decisionmakers and they do what is best for the game in the long run (most of the time), not for 1 particular person.</P> <P>Much love,</P> <P> </P>
<P>Migby Said</P> <P>NM, I had posted some comments to everyone jumping down Noah's throat, but forget it. The ball is rolling people, deal with it.<BR></P> <P> </P> <P>Loose the gung-ho attitude, none is jumping on anyone's throat. You can be assured that we will be able to adapt.</P> <P>Some of us are just asking for some common sense in forum posts. </P> <P>I have never seen another bunch of people ready to give up what they got without a fight. No other class even need to call a nerf on us but we are eagerly doing it to ourselves. Will you feel more macho tanking after a couple of nerfs ?</P> <P>And Demos your crusade to relieve your personal boredom in raids is no different then the millions of monks calling for a Nerf on Guardians. They will end up with same results. Upto now I have allways found your posts constructive but looks like from now on they will be to forward your own personal issues with the game rather then for the Guardian Community as a whole. Pity...</P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:35 AM</span>
<blockquote><hr>Nazowa wrote: <P>Loose the gung-ho attitude, none is jumping on anyone's throat. You can be assured that we will be able to adapt.</P> <P>Some of us are just asking for some common sense in forum posts. </P> <P>I have never seen another bunch of people ready to give up what they got without a fight. No other class even need to call a nerf on us but we are eagerly doing it to ourselves. Will you feel more macho tanking after a couple of nerfs ?</P> <P>And Demos your crusade to relieve your personal boredom in raids is no different then the millions of monks calling for a Nerf on Guardians. They will end up with same results.</P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:32 AM</span><hr></blockquote>I didn't realize that trying to avoid a flame war was being gung-ho.A lot of us higher level guardians are seeing that with certain easily obtainable combinations, mobs simply can't hit us. This is wrong. It's not just being overpowered, it's to the point where you could say we are broken. It's bad for the overall health for the game. I think the fact that your not seeing a huge outcry IS because a large number of people see this. Now as for the personal boredom in raids I do have to agree. After all is said in done; after these combat changes have rolled around, people in complete fabled gear, with all master spells, should find 99% of the current content trivial. Congrats, you are ready for the expansion.
<FONT size=1>A lot of us higher level guardians are seeing that with certain easily obtainable combinations, mobs simply can't hit us. This is wrong. It's not just being overpowered, it's to the point where you could say we are broken. It's bad for the overall health for the game. I think the fact that your not seeing a huge outcry IS because a large number of people see this. <BR><BR>Now as for the personal boredom in raids I do have to agree. After all is said in done; after these combat changes have rolled around, people in complete fabled gear, with all master spells, should find 99% of the current content trivial. Congrats, you are ready for the expansion. </FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yeah Exactly !</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We got an expansion coming and a combat revamp. Probably lots will change. There isnt much point in asking for nerfs on us is there ? They will probably be coming anyway. So why not stop the bad publicity and simply wait a bit ? SoE has a proven track record of overshooting targets. What might start as a small nerf here and there may turn into a huge avalanche that can [Removed for Content] us till next expansion. So may be wise to be a more prudent because u may get much much more then what u ask for :smileywink:</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:54 AM</span>
Oakwood
06-20-2005, 09:05 PM
<P>What you are all overlooking is that this is not a "Guardian nerf". This is a top to bottom overhaul of the entire combat, skills and spells system. Every class, every skill, every spell is being reevaluated. No one will be stacking a half dozen buffs to boost stats through the roof. Not guards, not troubs, not mystics, and so forth.</P> <P>And yes, the system as it is now is grossly unbalanced. For example, once a mob is out of power, it can't hurt a plate wearer to any significant degree. This is not just guards, but also pallys, SK, and even templars. If I can stay alive against a yellow con mob long enough to drain it of power the healer and I both can afk and win every time, and so can any plate wearer. My brother's inquisiter can take orange con mobs solo by healing himself till it runs out of power, at which point he doesnt need to heal himself again. </P> <P>Can anyone here justify how being immune to melle damage from a creature 3 levels above you is in any way balanced?</P> <P>And this is just one example of the imbalances in the current system. The list goes on. Should berserkers and brawlers really be the highest damage classes in the game? Right now, they easily outdamage assasins and wizards on longer fights. </P> <P>But it is not all nerfs. I am really looking forward to skill upgrades actually having an effect. Wouldn't it be nice for the adept III you just paid an arm and a leg for to actually be better than the app IV you upgraded from?</P> <P> </P>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <P>I understand where a lot of you guys are coming from. I love the class and hope we do stay in a "main tank" role even after the adjustments come.</P> <P>As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in. </P> <P>For those reasons I support a "change" in how buffs, healing, dps, hate works. The system is flawed right now. Does armor/gear make a difference? I guess in certain situations/mobs yeah, I can agree on that part. In largely though it is how skills get buffed way to high. Our stacking spells are a culprit in this matter (and others). I didn't post going into detail about all the other classes and what does/does not stack because 1) I only have personally tested guardians 2) this is the guardian forum. So, don't think I am singling out Guardians but merely informing you of what changes I saw hitting us directly (vs indirectly by other class's buffs).</P> <P>When the "final" changes hit, I am sure things will be a bit more challenging... but at the same time, as a whole, it will be tolerable and raids will continue to be done. Perhaps thou, there will be a touch of excitement...an epic will not die the 1st time it is tried...there will be a need for more than 1 tank... </P> <P>Anyway, appriciate the feed back. Please do not think my comments/ suggestions truely "change" the game. You would only grow my ego more <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Sure I have tested stuff but in the end the devs are the decisionmakers and they do what is best for the game in the long run (most of the time), not for 1 particular person.</P> <P>Much love,</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Lots of people that dont like the changes know how easy some of the end game is with certain configurations.</P> <P>Yea, having 165% avoidance is [Removed for Content]. Yea, the whole combat system revolving around big hits and high avoidance is ignorant and yea, having lots of fabled loot after doing all the encounters for months makes the whole system even more [Removed for Content] by mitigating those big hits by a much larger degree. Those have nothing to do with hp buffs.</P> <P>What exactly will a guardian add to a group after the changes? Why would anyone make a guardian the MT on raids? If paladins are becoming 'more defensive' and our skill lines are being 'spread around' what makes us unique?</P> <P>Theyre going to give all fighters a 5def buff and 300hp buff and call it balance heh, only problem is thats <STRONG>all </STRONG>we have to offer.</P> <P>We are Guardians our skill line is called Protection, we should be the most defensive tank, thats why we picked our class, thats why we accepted the trade-offs. We're going to be a paladin without heals after the changes unless theyre hiding something big.</P>
Shizzirri
06-20-2005, 10:05 PM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Shizzirri wrote:<BR> Other classes can't stack there HP buffs why should we be able to stack ours no guardians being the MT class of the game isn't a good excuse, so what this just means the uber guardians will have 11k hp's instead of 12k<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Ohhhh, sorry, so I guess we all put those zerkers, conjurers and necros in our MT groups for their good looks? Wouldnt have anything to do with gaining a few thousand hitpoints eh?</P> <P>Also, so now its not the defense buffs making guardians unhittable, its the hitpoint buffs that are overpowering. We will get those nerfed up too for yas. Anything else ya need? I am sure once we get rid off all that defense and hitpoints, the games going to be so much better. </P> <P> Noah can sit the bench while gauge tanks...</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Quit complaining we're still going to have the highest amount of HP's by about the same margin, its just we can not stack them all, it doesn't make sense I mean can healers stack there redoubt spell, there symbols, etc. no, no, no I'm sure Zerkers buffs will change the same way...The defensive bonuses don't stack on the do or die line for guardians just the hp's I've looked and watched the numbers as I cast them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I agree with Noah the epic encounters are too easy once you get them down, changing buffs to the way they should be would probably make it a little more interesting but I'm sure it will be the same, contested may be a different story since you kinda have to tank them like you do dara.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage tanks omg I'd hate to be the healer healing him :smileytongue:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
<P>How does a HP buff equate to more challenging encounters, you all do realize defense buffs are what gives you the 165% avoidance right? And that the def component of our HP buffs already intentionally doesnt stack?</P> <P>They could have fixed the defense stacking months ago, it would have taken less time than trying to upgrade epic encounters 3 (or was it 4) times now.</P>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paen wrote:<BR> <P>How does a HP buff equate to more challenging encounters, you all do realize defense buffs are what gives you the 165% avoidance right? And that the def component of our HP buffs already intentionally doesnt stack?</P> <P>They could have fixed the defense stacking months ago, it would have taken less time than trying to upgrade epic encounters 3 (or was it 4) times now.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Easy there cowboy. Do not post stuff like this please. </P> <P>Just nod your head and agree with the slow ones. Maybe tell us all how uber you are, and how trivial the content is.</P> <P>Dont blame hitpoints buffs on conjurers or zerkers. Defense stacking? bah!.. Its that grey "call of command" spell you have been exploiting all this time. :smileyhappy:</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P>Maybe something like this:</P> <P>"Quit complaining we're still going to have the highest amount of HP's by about the same margin, its just we can not stack them all, it doesn't make sense I mean can healers stack there redoubt spell, there symbols, etc. no, no, no I'm sure Zerkers buffs will change the same way...The defensive bonuses don't stack on the do or die line for guardians just the hp's I've looked and watched the numbers as I cast them.</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And I agree with Noah the epic encounters are too easy once you get them down, changing buffs to the way they should be would probably make it a little more interesting but I'm sure it will be the same, contested may be a different story since you kinda have to tank them like you do dara. "</DIV><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:04 PM</span>
<P>Yea its getting old seeing people more interested in looking uber on a messageboard than the health of our class and the game as a whole. Your egos are going to kill our class instead of actually fixing the game.</P> <P>Here's my 'I'm cool irl' link so I'm not portrayed a level 4 that doesnt know whats going on, <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=115494102" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=115494102</A> go me, and yes thats why I'm always advocating a /respec quest of some sort because I didnt pick HP traits for some stupid reason</P>
Gaige
06-21-2005, 12:10 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> uglak wrote: <P>I got the adept 3s, some sprinkled fable and full ebon. I buff stack. I also tank epic mobs with 24 man raids. (rare spawn and instanced) I know my healers arent falling asleep at the keyboard when we are fighting these mobs. My bar still goes in the red. I think its more egoes talking on here then facts. But, thats probably do to noahs extreme guardian skillz..</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I can't really think of the last time I saw his bar go yellow, let alone red. Sigon's either. Uglak what possible reason would Noah have for lying about being able to trivialize content. He does play a guardian man, I mean it isn't like he wants to see the class he plays for hours and hours everyday destroyed. I seriously doubt he'd be content to waste all of that time he invested, to spite you.</P> <P>Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that.</P> <P>Besides, it isn't *just* your HP buffs that are broken, its a lot of things.</P> <P>Mainly how the guardian class (yes, every single one of you) is being able to tank because of avoidance. Pretty silly isn't it. To think that the +defense skill is broken in such a way that the most uber defensively oriented plate tank class in this game... tanks like a monk.</P> <P>Sure you have higher HP and more mitigation... all of which do not matter when you are avoiding almost every hit.</P> <P>I would think you guys would want a challange, would want to be true mitigation tanks, true defensive tanks... would want some sort of balance among the fighters so you can still go out and tank Darathar better than us, without being broken, and have something to say about it.</P> <P>Instead of relying on a broken system to be the best, and really not give any other fighter a chance at all... and trying to brag about it.</P> <P>My opinions have changed a lot from a few months ago, because my time in FoH has let me see a lot of the game I haven't seen before.</P> <P>But that doesn't change the fact that your class (not entirely for reasons of your own) is broken. </P> <P>Just remember back to January when avoidance was broken badly, and monks/bruisers and scouts for crying out loud were outtanking guardians a lot of the time.</P> <P>I remember the posts I read back then, and you know what... I *asked* and even commented about how we were avoiding way too much, and it made the content trivial.</P> <P>I want to tank hard stuff sure, but I want to earn it. I want to have to pay attention and I want a risk. </P> <P>I don't want crap handed to me on a silver platter so I can touch 3 buttons, have a healer cast on me every 6th combat round and then spend my time in tells telling Noah how hot he is.</P> <P>But anyway, the point is: everyone knows that the system is messed up, and that your class is getting a big benefit from it that it shouldn't. The avoidance is the biggest part of it, with the HP stacking being minor.</P> <P>Noah was just letting you know what he saw on test that affects your class directly, as we haven't seen all of the combat/spell changes yet, it makes sense he wouldn't talk about those.</P> <P>But to any of you who thinks he wants to ruin your class, you're out of your minds. He reminds me constantly about how guardians > monks, and he is a great MT. All he wants is to be great because he knows how to play, not by default because of what he chose at 20.</P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:28 PM</span>
Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that.<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He maybe totally making sense for HIS condition : with HIS equipment, HIS spells, HIS raid force. That doesnt reflect the majority of Guardians around by a far far margin.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Noone here is arguing the necessity of combat revamp. I havent seen a single post around yet that says leave things as it is. BUT almost pin pointing guardian as overpowered alone etc.. is not helping.</DIV> <P><SPAN class=time_text>Maybe an example would better explain what I am trying to say : He is like a warlock that is saying </SPAN></P> <P><SPAN class=time_text>"We are sooooo over powered compared to wizards. I am not having fun anymore. We can solo anything. We need nerfing"</SPAN></P> <P>Do I make more sense now ?</P> <P>Message Edited by Nazowa on <SPAN class=date_text>06-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>01:34 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:35 PM</span>
Gaige
06-21-2005, 12:33 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR>Maybe, just maybe, Noah knows what he is talking about? Ever think about that. <DIV>He maybe totally making sense for HIS condition : with HIS equipment, HIS spells, HIS raid force. That doesnt reflect the majority of Guardians aroud by a far far margin. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>+Defense stacking doesn't take fabled gear. Neither does HP stacking. The guardian's mitigation, when combined with +defense, HP stacking is what causes the trivialization.</P> <P>Avoiding almost all of the incoming hits, is not an intended design of your class. Because your mitigation and HP make the few, rare times you get hit due to the avoidance, minimal at best.</P> <P>So having one of each type of healer in your group, with a HoT, reactive and ward on you = the strat.</P> <P>That shouldn't be the case. You guys should be getting hit a lot more, relying on your mitigation, which would mean that healers would have to be on their toes. As they are with all the other fighter classes.</P> <P>Oh, and don't even get me started about how reactive hate works.</P> <P>Sure Noah has lots of fabled, and we happen to raid.</P> <P>But that doesn't change the fact of what works for us, works for any guardian, just on a smaller level. But a smaller level is fine, when you are killing 35++ mobs.<BR></P>
<P>btw Gage we dont use Bloodline defense thingies in the guild when tanking. Sometimes tank without Warden in MT group or a Bard. So we are not exploiting the current defense stacking system to the fullest. </P> <P>However those who do and maybe call things trivial afterwards deserve a good spanking :smileywink:</P>
Gaige
06-21-2005, 12:54 AM
I don't think I've seen any of us with the BLC thing. We do, though, normally have a warden and a bard in our MT group.
<P>Guardians asking for a nerf to the only thing that sets us apart from the other fighters is no different than you asking for a nerf to your dps gage, unless you actually think youre supposed to be equal and in some cases out dps scouts and wizards, and tank as well as plate classes, heh, you cant have both. I'm sure you know that though, you just continue to scream loud for out of reach things since you know you will get something less but you will atleast get something. Which is ignorant, monks should be nerfed when the defense stacking is fixed, not upgraded. </P> <P>SoE always over compensates on balancing issues and listens to whoever is screaming the loudest, if I'm not mistaken you came from EQ1 and you know that as well as I do, youre just the one taking advantage of it while you can.</P> <P>No one said defense isnt broke, and its not just guardians with stupidly high avoidance on raids and xp groups.</P>
Gaige
06-21-2005, 01:35 AM
<P>Nope, didn't play EQ1.</P> <P>And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes.</P> <P>As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts.</P>
<DIV>Pre-last patch, I have tanked just about every mob in the game with various different loot on. The only encounters I can see a difference in "tanking" with lesser armor would be Darathar. So as you have the right set up, nearly all encounters can be done with ebon that is farmed easily from Named in higher lvl zones and epic instances... and the difference it not much from full fabled vs full ebon. Do you think I popped in game at 50 with a ton of fabled? wrong. We did raid mobs in Grass-Lined Greeves, rubi dropped bps, and heritage weapons. I have swapped out gear just to see what happens... a few effects drop off but Auto attack epic melee still does not hit and skill damage still is easily managable.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I didn't make this post to cry out "OMG I LOVE TEH NERF"... I made it to inform you guys of what is up. To get a discussion going about it. I thank the people of opposite views that don't make personal jabs, showing a lot of credit and maturity. I didn't make the post to get flamed as some ego driven person that doesnt care about his class. Do I happen to agree that these changes coming are going in the right direction, sure. Do I think we are going to be some useless class come some changes...... absolutely not. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All n all this is just on TEST. There is nothing concrete about these changes going live. This is all great feedback (if done constructively) for devs to read.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Much love for the mature people <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>
Macross_JR
06-21-2005, 04:18 AM
<P>I agree with Noah. I also think we should wait until the Combat Ballance before any of us jump to conclusion. As of right now, from what I have read is that the HP buffs are not stacking. As mentioned in this thread and others, it is not the HP's that make anyone unhittable, it is defense.</P> <P> </P> <P>P.S. Noah, I need another weapon made...<img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P><p>Message Edited by Macross_JR on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:48 PM</span>
Shaulin Dolamite
06-21-2005, 06:32 AM
<DIV>I agree with posts on both sides, or at least the ones done in a constructive manner. Not speaking for anyone else but myself.</DIV> <DIV>My concerns are that fixes will be made with the end game in mind, but the end game isnt EQ2. EQ2 for most of us is everything including the end game. I hope that the fixes take that into consideration. Im only lvl 35 and almost never get into the so called perfect group, the problems I have are not the same as the lvl 50 guard. The healer in my group goes afk and I die <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. Im in no hurry to lvl 50 but in a hurry to just enjoy all lvls of my guardian. I want the class to be fixed for all the lvl 50s but not at the expense of every guard lower in lvls.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that said I hope the changes made are for the good of the class and not the good of the uber lvl 50 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Shaulin Dolamite on <span class=date_text>06-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:54 PM</span>
Reebwen
06-21-2005, 10:14 AM
I really think we should just wait and see how the full revamp will be so before everyone starts to commit seppuku <span>:robotmad:</span> lets be patient. That is why SOE is takeing there time with this and I for one am glad they are. I personally will just be starting to raid soon and like most of you don't want to see our class torn apart into utter uselessness. I also do not want to see an end game that will be trivial upon lvl 50 bringing instant uberness for people either. I want my equipment to mean something to me. (oh and I would also like a server named after me as well <span>:smileyhappy:</span> ) <div></div>
Uglak before you wanting to flame me j3rk why dont you see we are in the same boat , lets see what other class can stack hitpoint buffs as well in the fighter archtype ummmm thats right a berserker...... I wasnt flaming anyone but hey ill flame you Uglak , s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth <div></div>
Sirrion77
06-21-2005, 03:45 PM
<DIV>I just hope with the balance they will follow this (this is my own opinion<img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Defence skill: Guardian > Berserker > Knights > Brawlers</DIV> <DIV>Avoidance: Brawler > Knights > Berserker > Guardian </DIV> <DIV>DPS: Brawler > Knights > Berserker > Guardian </DIV> <DIV>Hate spells: Knights > Berserker > Guardian > Brawler</DIV> <DIV>Overall HP: Guardian > Berserker > knights > Brawlers</DIV> <DIV>Mitigration: Guardian > Berserker > knights > Brawlers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sirriun</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sirrion77 on <span class=date_text>06-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:05 AM</span>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>Uglak before you wanting to flame me j3rk why dont you see we are in the same boat , lets see what other class can stack hitpoint buffs as well in the fighter archtype ummmm thats right a berserker...... <BR><BR>I wasnt flaming anyone but hey ill flame you Uglak , s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth <BR><BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I do not recall flaming you, but, your post makes me cry...</P> <P>:smileysad:</P>
Uglak i took your comment about zerkers as a flame , BUT if you didnt mean it as that then i will apologize you calling you out..... Cmon now , none of yall think its petty that with a zerker/Guard combo in MT group on raids we can put out 2k plus in HP buff? ( if they go along the route of fixing spell scaling i think we still will buff a huge amount of hp with both our Tier 5 buff instead of stacking 7 hp buffs total + your sta buff ) Also with a Guard in MT group a zerker can tank like a guard ( your defense buff overwrites every other tank types stance etc and still gives me 292 defense if applied with templar,mystic,troub/dirge and conjuror ) I understand everyones fears ( i myself am afraid that they will nerf zerkers to crap since a large part of the " dps " issue is with berserkers as well ) But we gotta wait and see what happens.... SOE = nerf kings and we know this ( eq, SWG blah blah blah as past reference ) but i dont think they are gonna leave 6 classes high end dry when everything is done... We just gotta see what we have to work with after the COMPLETE combat rebalance is out ..... ( thou with the looks of things paladins will be up there with guardians , that is for sure but still no word on zerker/sk and monk/brusier POST combat revamp ) Let just hope we dont get totally [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]rap3d <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div>
<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>Nope, didn't play EQ1.</P> <P>And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes.</P> <P>As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're right, I havent read 99% of your posts in about 6 months since I deemed you an non-credible source of information, if your tune has changed that much then I was obviously wrong, and I apologize. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Noah your elitist attitude stems from comments like:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Maybe I took that and a few other comments the wrong way. The way I read it you basically said 'If you dont agree with me then youre not at my level of the game, and you will agree with me when you are.' If I did take that and other posts wrong then I apologize..</P> <P></P> <P>Things need to change, no doubt, most every encounter in this game is to easy, we just disagree on how it should be done I guess. I think they should fix the obvious #1 bug (defense) and go from there, not balance everything with the bug in tact and have everything totally screwed when the fix finally does go in. Guardians HP's have nothing to do with the level of difficulty on EQ2 mobs. It is however, the only thing we have going for us as guardians vs. other fighters.</P> <P>The new contested mobs are pretty nice but all they did was add another bandaid fix for the defense bug by making them so high level their hit to miss ratio skyrocketed regardless of your avoidance. I still think they should have just fixed the bug itself months ago, cant be that hard to add in a few IF arguments to block or negate defense components, they did it with our HP buffs, or they should have just capped defense all together which would have been even easier and timely.</P> <P>All they've done is create more and more problems for when they do actually fix it, these new mobs are going to rip us a new one once all the defense fixes and balacing changes go in, they keep balancing encounters around all these bugs instead of fix the bugs.. why! Capping defense could have been done on Monday instead of raising the levels of the mobs and we would have had the same outcome, we dont need to wait for combat art and spell changes to lower everyones avoidance to an acceptable level.</P> <P>But then again I came from 4 years of EQ1 so I'm very pessimistic, and I dont want to wait another 2'ish years for my class to be fixed again (warriors). So far, with the exception of Frizznik, I have no faith in anyone for timely, accurate, balanced fixes and cool enhancements.</P><p>Message Edited by Paen on <span class=date_text>06-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:30 PM</span>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR>Uglak i took your comment about zerkers as a flame , BUT if you didnt mean it as that then i will apologize you calling you out.....<BR><BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I guess honestly I could care less how you take it. s.t.f.u and read my response next time before opening your mouth <BR></DIV>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Paen wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>Nope, didn't play EQ1.</P> <P>And no, it isn't just guardians with stacked defense... but it is guardians with high HP and awesome mitigation and the most defensive buffs, allowing them to take advantage of it way more than other plate classes.</P> <P>As for my thoughts on monk DPS... lets just say its obvious you haven't read many of my posts.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>You're right, I havent read 99% of your posts in about 6 months since I deemed you an non-credible source of information, if your tune has changed that much then I was obviously wrong, and I apologize. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And Noah your elitist attitude stems from comments like:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> As you progress in this game (at the moment), everyone will hit the lack of challenge and bordem rather quickly once they are in the "raid" game. I am pretty sure that most people play the raid game for challenge. Once this is taken away, it is all traveltime and loot collection. When this happens, people start to feel less needed and bored of the game. Many many guilds feel this pain as less and less of their members log in. </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV> <P></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Maybe I took that and a few other comments the wrong way. The way I read it you basically said 'If you dont agree with me then youre not at my level of the game, and you will agree with me when you are.' If I did take that and other posts wrong then I apologize..</P> <P></P> <P>Things need to change, no doubt, most every encounter in this game is to easy, we just disagree on how it should be done I guess. I think they should fix the obvious #1 bug (defense) and go from there, not balance everything with the bug in tact and have everything totally screwed when the fix finally does go in. Guardians HP's have nothing to do with the level of difficulty on EQ2 mobs. It is however, the only thing we have going for us as guardians vs. other fighters.</P> <P>The new contested mobs are pretty nice but all they did was add another bandaid fix for the defense bug by making them so high level their hit to miss ratio skyrocketed regardless of your avoidance. I still think they should have just fixed the bug itself months ago, cant be that hard to add in a few IF arguments to block or negate defense components, they did it with our HP buffs, or they should have just capped defense all together which would have been even easier and timely.</P> <P>All they've done is create more and more problems for when they do actually fix it, these new mobs are going to rip us a new one once all the defense fixes and balacing changes go in, they keep balancing encounters around all these bugs instead of fix the bugs.. why! Capping defense could have been done on Monday instead of raising the levels of the mobs and we would have had the same outcome, we dont need to wait for combat art and spell changes to lower everyones avoidance to an acceptable level.</P> <P>But then again I came from 4 years of EQ1 so I'm very pessimistic, and I dont want to wait another 2'ish years for my class to be fixed again (warriors). So far, with the exception of Frizznik, I have no faith in anyone for timely, accurate, balanced fixes and cool enhancements.</P> <P>Message Edited by Paen on <SPAN class=date_text>06-21-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>03:30 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Amen. Same old song and dance. I really do not see how anyone can be optimistic with the track record so far. The "guardian nerf" paraders sure arent going to help anything, as Sony seems to change there minds on how to run the game depending on the number of board player posts. Which is a huge mistake.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look at the waffling back and forth with the invoker robe for a most recent example.</DIV>
Nibbl
06-22-2005, 05:21 AM
<DIV><FONT size=2> <P>Uglak, you are correct. Those that are more vocal tend to get what they want, seen it in EQ I. If guardians don’t stand together for their class defining skills, such as defense, it will be trivialized. When they revamp the skill/spell system to make spell lines true upgrades, soe needs to ensure they don’t nerf the overall benefits that currently exists. Example, if your 4 buffs that stack now give +20 defense they should do the same when you can only use one or two. Unfortunately after the combat changes people will still feel cheated. Light armor tanks are going to get a major mitigation decrease, while heavy armor tanks will see their avoidance drop significantly. Mitigatation and overall hitpoints will continue to rule on raid type mobs. Raids mobs don’t miss much, whether your avoidance is 20% or 80%. I doubt avoidance will scale evenly from green to red mobs, where you get hit the same percentage regardless of con.</P></FONT></DIV>
Drozan71
06-22-2005, 05:34 AM
<P>Just my 2 cp....</P> <P> </P> <P>I think limiting the buffing of any stat or skill is a good idea for game balance whether it is end game, group or solo. I think Defense, Parry etc should only apply the highest version (Like how the defense of our lesser buffs that stack dont apply the def of it but do apply the Hps). I get tired of stacking 3 HP buffs myself so what I would like to see is for them to UP our highest Hp buff by 10 or 20 % and use that as our sole HP buff. I think limiting the stackability of Def, Parry etc should help in the trivialization of content. I think being able to self, group or raid buff your Def to say 15 or 20 Def (Dependent on if you chose the racial Def trait) still keeps us as a solid Def tank but not as Godlike as we were before. Maybe with the changes where we are suppose to be the best tank as we will have the lowest DPS we should have the highest Def buffability compared to any of the other tanks.</P> <P> </P> <P>Here is an idea to make RAIDS less trivial...</P> <P> </P> <P>Have the Named mob cast unresistable Zone wide AE that debuffs all Def, Parry etc. Yes I said ALL potential buffs that make some tanks better then others. That way having greater Def, Parry etc would mean crap when it comes to tanking the Named mob. Yes it will be ALOT tougher but then again I enjoy a TRUE challenge when I play a game and failure just makes me want to win that much more. By SoE doin this THEY can control the environment in which you raid. they can make the mob debuff what they want. When they lvl the playing field with the debuff they can lessen certain things with the Named and can better tailor the content with the field lvld and would open alot more doors for any fighter to step up and tank mobs.. Of course it would be best to have adds spawn and require off tanks and other creative things could be done to raids to keep everyone busy and on their toes in order to win. </P> <P> </P> <P>I love being a Guardian but I think change is needed to balance ALL of the classes and keep the game interesting for us. Flame if you want BUT each of us are entitled to their own opinion.</P> <P> </P> <P>Let me give you a small story to think about. I played EQ 1 and was a good solid tank with OK gear but not great. I joined a raiding guild and made HUGE improvements to my gear and skill playing my class. I would do LDoN and grind groups and sometimes we would add another warrior. Alot of the time they had Uber gear and thought they were the Chit since they raided and had so many Hps and AA. I dont judge people by their gear, Hps or guild they are in. I judge then by how they use the tools they are given to play their class (Tools being, AA, Armor, Weapons etc.). I found 50 to 60 % of these so called Uber tanks truly sucked and lacked some serious skill in how to play the Warrior class effectively. It would make me chuckle when I would sit back and do minimal Dps while they would screw up time after time. One last thing... I have tanked mobs that folks said I had no chance of tanking. I even had people come to me that had better gear and more Hps and failed and asked How the Heck was I able to tank that mob with my inferior gear?? I am very modest but sometimes it comes down to knowing your class, doing things exactly when they need to be done and playing your class with 120 % dedication to being the best.. Nough said <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Drozan</P> <P>48 Guardian Butcherblock</P>
<P>Tanked Nagelik last night. 100% avoidence, 80% mitigation.</P> <P>I resisted the harm touch, and still ate 12k damage in the first two rounds of combat...</P> <P>Anyone elses "god mode" button bugged like mine?</P>
<P>My post was PRE epic mob revamp thxvmuch.</P> <P>I read plenty of people defeating Nagalik... maybe you have the wrong strat. Evenso, what is wrong with an epic mob not being able to be beaten anyway?</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>
<div></div>Maybe it means you suck Uglak? yeah s.t.f.u. take it like a man already, you know tank types are gonna eat it sooner or later but i guess you want it to stay as guard = all , sorry SoE doesnt agree anymore with that thought <div></div><p>Message Edited by Styker on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 AM</span>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <P>My post was PRE epic mob revamp thxvmuch.</P> <P>I read plenty of people defeating Nagalik... maybe you have the wrong strat. Evenso, what is wrong with an epic mob not being able to be beaten anyway?</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nag will be beaten by me. Did I anywhere say he is too hard? And there is nothing wrong with a epic mob that cannot be beaten. But, that sort of makes them like nagafen then doesnt it? Useless except to get a quest from. </P> <P>Point is, you claim its buff stack the guardian and go to sleep, game over...</P> <P> According to YOU, I prefer "god mode". </P> <P>My point is, to hear you talk, guardians are god mode and cannot be hit. The game is trivial, blah blah blah... No strat needed, healers asleep. buff stack the guardian and take a nap..</P> <P>But, I show that a buff stacked 100% agili and 80% mitigation means jack , and I took 12000 damage from a epic mob in 2 combat rnds. And your response is that I have the wrong strat and whats wrong with mobs that cannot be beaten? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?</P> <P>Well, which is it? Guardians are god mode are theyre not ? 100% avoidence is overpowered, or is it not? The game is trivial or its not? Are you talking out both sides of yer [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], or are you not? </P> <P>Come on now Noah, either guardian buffs/buff stacking trivialize encounters, or they dont... Which way are you going to play it, or, are you going to play it both ways?</P> <P>I</P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:12 PM</span>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Styker wrote:<BR> Maybe it means you suck Uglak? <BR><BR>yeah s.t.f.u. take it like a man already, you know tank types are gonna eat it sooner or later but i guess you want it to stay as guard = all , sorry SoE doesnt agree anymore with that thought <BR> <P>Message Edited by Styker on <SPAN class=date_text>06-22-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:28 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yhadda, yhadda, yhadda... god mode, yhadda, yhadda... S,T.F.U, yhadda yhadda.. Guards are overpowered, yhadda yhadda, uglaks a meanie, yhadda, yhadda..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Look, I dont care if you like me or not. We can go back and forth on that all day. And no one cares, including me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Either contribute some substance to the conversation (and back it up), or go back to the zerker boards and tell em how the guardians are overpowered and need nerfed..</DIV><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:52 AM</span>
<P>And , BTW, that test is repeatable. Just stack your buffs and go pull it. You will take even more damage if you do not resist the harm touch. </P> <P>But, I didnt see anyone call me a liar on that either. But, you "guardian nerf" peeps can feel free to strip off that armor, stack those buffs, send your healers afk, and then post one of those "in game" movies and show us just how uber you are and what "god mode" looks like.</P> <P> </P> <P>Till then, I am going to have to call BS.</P>
Gaige
06-22-2005, 11:43 PM
Resists?
It's not just raid content. I killed seraph of the stags last night with two other people, a templar and an enchanter. I probably could of done it with just the templar, it would of just taken longer.It's a GROUPX2 mob, yes it was blue to me, yes I have decent gear, but come on now... something that cons groupX2 should just paste three people. Again, it isn't just the raids that are messed up.
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <P>My post was PRE epic mob revamp thxvmuch.</P> <P>I read plenty of people defeating Nagalik... maybe you have the wrong strat. Evenso, what is wrong with an epic mob not being able to be beaten anyway?</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nag will be beaten by me. Did I anywhere say he is too hard? And there is nothing wrong with a epic mob that cannot be beaten. But, that sort of makes them like nagafen then doesnt it? Useless except to get a quest from. </P> <P>Point is, you claim its buff stack the guardian and go to sleep, game over...</P> <P> According to YOU, I prefer "god mode". </P> <P>My point is, to hear you talk, guardians are god mode and cannot be hit. The game is trivial, blah blah blah... No strat needed, healers asleep. buff stack the guardian and take a nap..</P> <P>But, I show that a buff stacked 100% agili and 80% mitigation means jack , and I took 12000 damage from a epic mob in 2 combat rnds. And your response is that I have the wrong strat and whats wrong with mobs that cannot be beaten? [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]?</P> <P>Well, which is it? Guardians are god mode are theyre not ? 100% avoidence is overpowered, or is it not? The game is trivial or its not? Are you talking out both sides of yer [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], or are you not? </P> <P>Come on now Noah, either guardian buffs/buff stacking trivialize encounters, or they dont... Which way are you going to play it, or, are you going to play it both ways?</P> <P>I</P> <P>Message Edited by uglak on <SPAN class=date_text>06-22-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>12:12 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Did you forget to read that my post was pre the recent "epic mob revamp"? Im glad with the new epic mob revamp in place some people are finding them challenging now. <P>As far as saying our buffs are the ONLY reason for trivialization or not.... the stacking is PART of the problem, not the whole problem. Not once did I say our buffs were the whole issue. </P> <P>As far as "god mode" goes... lemme ask you a question at 35% mitigation and 60% avoidance, about what a scout has... should we take damage like a scout that has the same percents? </P> <P>Asking my self that very question - I ran to PF, took off my gear and used ebon/fulginate piece to get to around 35% mitigation/60% avoidance while fully buffed. Nothing special on... just buffed up solo and with normal gear I sat at a 47th lvl heoric mob for 20 minutes and parsed how much damage i took. Total around 1500 ... the mob parsed at an astounding 1.25 dps! Is this intended? Are we suppose to be immune to group blue mobs while equip with scout armor? The Heavy armor we get should assist in tanking better, and yes, some increase in the defense skill is needed to separate us from the other "tank" types... but at the moment it is way to much.</P> <P>This correlates into the raid setting and is just amplified by buff stacking with other classes.... Adjustment has to happen or basically some epic mobs will be tweaked to a point (for challenge) that they have to be tanked by a guardian all the time and obliterate any other class that might get agro / try to tank. Doesnt sound to fun to me</P></DIV>
<DIV>The whole combat system from lvl 1-50 revolving around big hits and high avoidance is the main problem, its ignorant for a game to start out that way, it would have only gotten worse every expansion if they didnt have the balls to fix it. I cant believe they didnt have the foresight to think of it though, I noticed it by the time I was level 20, if not sooner.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's not like they have no experience making games, I could understand if it was their first game, but come on.. They have what, 150 levels planned? Thats a lot of expansions with dps raising more and more every expansion as it should.. how could they not see the huge dps / high avoidance system coming around to bite them in the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]? How did they not see the huge balance disparitys the second they tested a plate versus leather tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Then on top of that they let people get obscene amounts of defense to give obscene levels of avoidance, <STRONG>on top of the already screwed up core combat system, </STRONG>and then they leave it in for 8 months, <STRONG>8 months, </STRONG>and as everyone knows it still hasnt changed..</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>And finally on top of that they balance around this huge avoidance bug trying to give people a challenge when it could have been hotpatched in 8 months ago, remember the agility nerf and how fast it went in? Why cant they just cap or fix avoidance that fast? It has the same exact effect, people getting hit much less than they should, yet its not as important to hot-patch?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now the high-end contested mobs (that I've done) are nice for the most part, but the rest of the game is still [Removed for Content] since they wont atleast cap defense until the core system change is in place.</DIV> <DIV><STRONG></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>We beat nagalik lastnight, he's probably to hard for the risk vs reward but it was fun killing him once. He just has to many abilities, coupled together they make the fight very iffy. Being 1 rounded isnt fun, theres no skill involved in avoiding being 1 rounded, I'd like to rely on the skill of myself and my guildmates not the RNG and luck. Being constantly drained isnt fun due to the way his hate list abilities work etc.. There's a very fine line between challenging and stupid, and while I appreciate the upgrade to the contested mobs I still think capping defense would have been the overall better choice until the revamp.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Since the contested mobs are all 56-57 now avoidance doesnt mean much anyway (I had 80% during Nagalik), they could still cap defense tonight and <EM>partially</EM> fix a very large portion of the game thats been left untouched, as screwed up as day one.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Paen on <span class=date_text>06-22-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 PM</span>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <BR><BR> <DIV>Did you forget to read that my post was pre the recent "epic mob revamp"? Im glad with the new epic mob revamp in place some people are finding them challenging now. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>So I take it this means you null/void your previous posts in this thread and others that the raid game is too easy and guardians/buff stacking make them no challenge?</FONT></DIV> <P>As far as saying our buffs are the ONLY reason for trivialization or not.... the stacking is PART of the problem, not the whole problem. Not once did I say our buffs were the whole issue. </P> <P>As far as "god mode" goes... lemme ask you a question at 35% mitigation and 60% avoidance, about what a scout has... should we take damage like a scout that has the same percents? </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>IMO, no. Do we do equal damage to a scout in the same gear? No, we are tanks, they are DPS. </FONT> </P> <P>Asking my self that very question - I ran to PF, took off my gear and used ebon/fulginate piece to get to around 35% mitigation/60% avoidance while fully buffed. Nothing special on... just buffed up solo and with normal gear I sat at a 47th lvl heoric mob for 20 minutes and parsed how much damage i took. Total around 1500 ... the mob parsed at an astounding 1.25 dps! Is this intended? Are we suppose to be immune to group blue mobs while equip with scout armor? The Heavy armor we get should assist in tanking better, and yes, some increase in the defense skill is needed to separate us from the other "tank" types... but at the moment it is way to much.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Ahh, so at the beggining of this thread it was trivial raids was the reason for this gross imbalance. Now its farming blue mobs. Which no one cares about anyways.</FONT></P> <P>This correlates into the raid setting and is just amplified by buff stacking with other classes.... Adjustment has to happen or basically some epic mobs will be tweaked to a point (for challenge) that they have to be tanked by a guardian all the time and obliterate any other class that might get agro / try to tank. Doesnt sound to fun to me</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>I assure you, the new raid mobs will connect. You will not be in god mode, due to their level and special abilities. So, your problems solved. ( at least the problems pointed out in your initial posts. I guess you can argue low blues/freens are no longer a challenge, but, they never were. Sorry if zaylak and drayek are still too easy for your uberness, but beggining raid guilds without the "perfect MT groups" need something to raid too. And the loot sucks anyways.</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If you believe "the combat changes" (tm) are going to perfect the game, or hell, much less balance classes, your the one mistaken. It will just be reshuffling the deck to different imbalances. I have serious doubts if they will even be a improvement. And no, I still think your guardian are overpowered posts are ridiculous and will only worsen the situation. Your initial post was not in the guardian forums, so sayig thats the reason you specifically herald nerfing guardians and saying "guardians are overpowered" is a cop out. Why not say buff stacking is overpowered, and include all the other MT group classes in your statement?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In fact, you did start this stuff with your previous "naked Noah" posts. And your minds still set on the game being catered to Noahs vision.</DIV>
<DIV>While they have made significant changes to epic content to balance it against our ability to take things down, much of the game is still extremely trivialized by a high end tank, especially a guardian. There are issues now and there will likely be issues after the larger changes are made, but changes DO need to be made. There is more to the game than epic content, and I would like interesting group and x2 group content as well. Thats not very likely in the current situation.</DIV>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ibishi wrote:<BR> <DIV>While they have made significant changes to epic content to balance it against our ability to take things down, much of the game is still extremely trivialized by a high end tank, especially a guardian. There are issues now and there will likely be issues after the larger changes are made, but changes DO need to be made. There is more to the game than epic content, and I would like interesting group and x2 group content as well. Thats not very likely in the current situation.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Well, there ya have it. guardians are whats overpowered and trivialize the game. If 3 or 4 FOH members say it, it must be gospel.. I guess we can close this thread up now.
Zilasak
06-23-2005, 04:52 PM
<DIV>I think it's all about the grp setting, if you have everyday warden, bard, etc to stack the defense, it's easy. </DIV> <DIV>We don't have a warden in my guild, with the class we have my max def is 291 (not couting tokens, guardian + defiler + dirge). I hope the change won't be a guardian buff nerf, because the problem is more the stacking between class, than buff of one of the class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the hp buff, i think i'll survive ;p </DIV>
<P>Zilasak said</P> <P>We don't have a warden in my guild, with the class we have my max def is 291 (not couting tokens, guardian + defiler + dirge). I hope the change won't be a guardian buff nerf, because the problem is more the stacking between class, than buff of one of the class. </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but who cares if your guild dont have a Warden ? See these people use (exploit) the current system to the fullest, farm the heck out of everything and then call a nerf. If a nerf comes it will be a soft blow for them but it will land very very heavy on you indeed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Things were civil upto now but looks like more of you guys would slither into these forums in support of each other so gloves off. I have never seen a bigger bunch of traitors and hypocrites in my life !</DIV> <P> </P><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:26 AM</span>
Zilasak
06-23-2005, 06:05 PM
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nazowa wrote:<BR> <P>Zilasak said</P> <P>We don't have a warden in my guild, with the class we have my max def is 291 (not couting tokens, guardian + defiler + dirge). I hope the change won't be a guardian buff nerf, because the problem is more the stacking between class, than buff of one of the class. </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but who cares if your guild dont have a Warden ? See these people use (exploit) the current system to the fullest, farm the heck out of everything and then call a nerf. If a nerf comes it will be a soft blow for them but it will land very very heavy on you indeed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Things were civil upto now but looks like more of you guys would slither into these forums in support of each other so gloves off. I have never seen a bigger bunch of traitors and hypocrites in my life !</DIV> <P> </P> <P>Message Edited by Nazowa on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:26 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>No pb, we will adapt, i just wanted to show that the problem is mostly due to the buff stacking between classes, and not guardian buff only. </DIV> <DIV>I even think that if soe do it the right way, it won't affect guilds like mine. </DIV> <DIV>It will not be possible anymore to stack 3+ defensive (buff) class, let say warden and bard as an exemple or even faster, a max cap to the def skill. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>English is not my native langage, always hard to explain an idea ;p ;p</DIV><p>Message Edited by Zilasak on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:10 AM</span>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zilasak wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think it's all about the grp setting, if you have everyday warden, bard, etc to stack the defense, it's easy. </DIV> <DIV>We don't have a warden in my guild, with the class we have my max def is 291 (not couting tokens, guardian + defiler + dirge). I hope the change won't be a guardian buff nerf, because the problem is more the stacking between class, than buff of one of the class. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for the hp buff, i think i'll survive ;p </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactley. Its a buff stacking problem, for those with the "perfect setup". And even its not really a problem with alot of the new improved raid epics. </P> <P> Exploit the system to the fullest (not to mention the vox/trembler crap), farm the crap out of gear, then scream for nerfs. I still havent got a answer as to how a guardian HITPOINT buff nerf addresses any of it anyways. Nor why guardians are singled out for defense nerfs when there are alot more classes then guardians that throw defense buffs. </P> <P>/shrugs Reason we have no answer is because there is no answer. Singling guardians out for nerfs is lame, and solves nothing. But, really no sense and continuing with the discussion, since its seems to be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for tat, and duck and weave, if spin #1 fails, go to spin #2, etc.. </P> <P>Raids are trivial and guardians are god classes! > No theyre not, we get drilled by raid mobs with total buff stacking > Well, green mobs cant kick our [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] > blah blah blah...</P> <P>Really no reason to continue the exchange. Its all pretty much covered in here, and Uglak will now rest his case.</P> <P>Sorry for those I was confrontational with, but , peeps calling for guardians buff nerfs, while ignoring every other classes buff stacking jerks my chain. Sony will do what Sony will do, which is probably cave in to whoever screams the loudest on the boards, wins the popularity contest, etc, which is a recipe for continual error. It is not going to change. </P> <P>Most bruisers do not want to be tanks with low DPS, most zerkers are happy with their proffession/raid desirability (being welcome [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] offtanks, maintanks, DPS, etc). Most guardians are happy where they stand. But, looks like we are about to get 30% of the server populations (all fighter classes) competing for the 1 or 2 tank spots in a raid, 1 spot in a group, and the rest sitting the bench while the dps and healers fill it out. </P> <P>But, its a dead horse argument, and nothing we says going to change the course now. Gage and I, as well as others who apparantley arent even around anymore, got 6 or 7 mile long threads discussing the topic. Not really much sense in rehashing it over and over. I think all angles have been covered add nauseum. We disagree, and nothings going to change it.</P> <P> /shrug, guess we just let the chips fall where they may and hope for the best. </P> <P>The best solution would be having different types of content for different types of fighters. Yes, even old MT guards wouldnt mind hitting the /assist key in "sham mode" for a raid or two a night and let the monks/bruiser have their fun. But, new content/changing content is apparantley too much work for SOE, so, ya get what we have here... </P>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>no sense and continuing with the discussion, since its seems to be [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] for tat, <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>I kinda thought this was funny for some reason, hah...<BR>
<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Well, there ya have it. guardians are whats overpowered and trivialize the game. If 3 or 4 FOH members say it, it must be gospel.. I guess we can close this thread up now. </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV>That bull is exactly why I didn't step in earlier to agree with Noah. Eventually I decided that it would be better for another guardian to come in on his side despite my affiliation. Noah and I don't see eye to eye on everything Uglak. And Noah knows this is not solely an issue of guardians being overpowered either. But Guardians are responsible for a lot of it, that can not be denied. I have consistently said I will reserve my judgment for the changes until I see and feel them. Combat in EQ2 feels like a marshmellow far too often, as if neither the mob's actions nor mine have much influence over the other. This has become far less true of epic content, but heroic and solo content is too broad to be adjusted so finely. I hope combat changes in a much broader sense. If you read threads I start, I have rather ambitious desires for how interactive and expansive combat and raid events should be.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:43 PM</span>
Arsen
06-23-2005, 11:42 PM
<P><EM><STRONG>My opinions have changed a lot from a few months ago, because my time in FoH has let me see a lot of the game I haven't seen before.</STRONG></EM></P> <P>I think most people's opinions would likely change after being in FoH (or a similar guild) for a couple months. I'm sure mine would. However, 99.99% of the people in the game are not and never will be (nor do they want to be). The game should not be balanced with the assumption that everyone is in a hard core raiding guild.</P> <P>Thats not to say that things shouldn't be changed of course....</P> <P>Let me just say this: <STRONG>Buff stacking is NOT the biggest problem with the current system</STRONG>.</P> <P>The biggest problems is that the formulas are built around thresholds. There is a fine line between when an encounter is nearly impossible and when it becomes trivial. Buff stacking just makes this problem much worse because if you can find the right things to stack, you can hit the thresholds easier. And during raids, this is also greatly exxagerrated because of the magnitude of the epic's DPS. There is just not enough in-betwen space where things are in the "challenging" realm. A difference of 10 points of one skill on one person in a 24 person raid could literally mean the difference between a near certain loss or an easy win. This is the ridiculous part of the current combat system - and why it is so frustrating for people to come to an agreement on how it should be fixed. The biggest part of the challenge of the raid is to come up with the correct buff combonations which then simply trivializes the content. Guilds that do not have access to these different classes struggle with basic raids while other guilds breeze through everything.</P> <P>The scary thing about the Guardian class is honestly that it is COMPLETELY dependent on buffs. Every non-buff CA we have is pretty blah and our class defining skills are flat out broken with no hope in sight to fix them. If you ran a balance test on all the classes in the game without using any buffs, you'd find the Guardian at the bottom of the heap with Enchanters and Bards. <STRONG> This is why Guardians are scared about the upcoming buff nerfage. When you take an honest look at the class and imagine all the buffs gone/nerfed - there really is not much else there. The way things currently stand, it would be very easy for the devs to send us into a prolonged gimpdom simply as a by product of fixing the combat system.<BR></STRONG> </P> <P> </P>
<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>DemosthenesEQ2 wrote: <div><p>Asking my self that very question - I ran to PF, took off my gear and used ebon/fulginate piece to get to around 35% mitigation/60% avoidance while fully buffed. Nothing special on... just buffed up solo and with normal gear I sat at a 47th lvl heoric mob for 20 minutes and parsed how much damage i took. Total around 1500 ... the mob parsed at an astounding 1.25 dps! Is this intended? Are we suppose to be immune to group blue mobs while equip with scout armor? The Heavy armor we get should assist in tanking better, and yes, some increase in the defense skill is needed to separate us from the other "tank" types... but at the moment it is way to much.</p> <p>This correlates into the raid setting and is just amplified by buff stacking with other classes.... Adjustment has to happen or basically some epic mobs will be tweaked to a point (for challenge) that they have to be tanked by a guardian all the time and obliterate any other class that might get agro / try to tank. Doesnt sound to fun to me</p></div><hr></blockquote></span>This "test" is a little disingenious. Your avoidance/mitigation might have been the same as a scout's, but not your defense skill. Try the same test with a level 49 or 50 mob (depending on how high your defense is) and you won't live 5 minutes, let alone 20. Currently there is a huge boost in avoidance versus a given mob if your defense is high enough to "grey" them out. You can confirm this by stacking buffs from different classes and your own abilities in different combinations. You will find that, literally, one point of defense will boost you from the 70-range to high 90's or 100% avoidance. That is the point at which you've "greyed out" white con mobs. This same process happens with lower level mobs, but it happens well before you see the huge boost in your profile because it only displays avoidance vs. white con mobs. (This is why heroic mobs one level can't touch you, but heroic mobs of the same type that are one level higher can beat the tar out of you.) Note that when you do get to 100% avoidance and "grey out" white con mobs, you haven't suddenly gained 20-30% extra avoidance vs. yellows or reds. That huge boost would only apply versus, for example, level 56 mobs if you were able to add an additional 30 defense *after* hitting 100% avoidance in your profile. It is also important to note that the 100% trick does not level the playing field against mobs that haven't been "greyed" out. If two characters normally have different ammounts of avoidance, but have the same defense and then both just barely hit 100% vs white mobs via buffs, their avoidance versus higher level mobs will *not* be equal. Getting to 100% in your profile is a nice impressive stat, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Not enough people realize that. Bottom line, any epic encounter that is high enough level cannot easily be trivialized in this fasion, if at all. Lower level epic encounters, such as the Seraph, can be *easily* trivialized using this tactic. Heroic content aimed at single groups can also be trivialized using this tactic since very little of it is above level 50. This is why a guardian or any class that has the right traits/buffs can tank massive trains of greens, blues, whites, and sometimes even yellows. Guardians happen to be particularily good at it for one reason alone: our group defense buff. Now here's the problem. Due to the way avoidance/mitigation works for tanks, mobs hit very hard when they do hit. Classes that don't have high defense, avoidance, mitigation, and HP tend to get splattered by heroic content in a very short period of time. As things are, some classes can die in the space of a only a couple combat rounds against blue con heroic mobs, and sometimes just one round if the mob lands a high damage CA. (Don't cry too hard for them. These same classes can often still solo those mobs with ease. They just have to use tactics that keep them out of meelee.) So there is a limit to how much you can buff meelee on heroic mobs, since if you buff it too far a significant number of classes will be insta-gibbed the moment a mob manages to get into meelee range. (That's no fun for anyone!) If they cap defense or implement diminishing returns on defense stacking then this content can be made less easily trivializable, but there will be a very large about of content rebalancing that needs to be done. What I would do, personally, is remove the huge boost in avoidance you get for "greying out" mobs and make avoidance go up linearilly. Greens and blues would still be able to hit a character with very high defense skill, but non-tank classes would not be significantly impacted, nor would tanks under most raid conditions. Most people would no longer be able to go AFK with a group of higher level grey mobs beating on them, but that's just fine, since grey's won't attack you unless you attack them first. Defense would still be a stat you'd want to pump as high as possible and everyone with a defense buff would be able to contribute, but there would not longer be a magic number to reach that would make you invulnerable to regular meelee from mobs of a given level. I am not a dev however, so their solution will most likely be different. Hopefully they won't screw things up too badly. Edit: What Arsenal posted while I was writing this post is bang on. This is very much a threshold problem. If they remove the threshold and implement more linear benefits things would work out a lot more reasonably, IMHO. <div></div><p><span class="date_text"></span><span class="time_text"> </span></p><p>Message Edited by Corvan on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:26 PM</span>
blueduckie
06-24-2005, 02:18 AM
<DIV>As others have said would greatly enjoy our hp buffs not stacking but have them scale on a higher end just because it is a pain to keep them all up. I think return to battle should be 800-900ish at adept 3. I think braksans should be around same to give choice of which to use. I personally would still use braksans for the mitigation even if it was say 100 less hp after scaling. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Everyone is dancing around the same issue. Stack up defense and mob can become /yawn. I dont see where anyone has said guardians are the sole problem. However I am not in a big raid guild but feel guardians are way more powerful than other tank classes. Used to watch a paladin go toe to toe on same mob i would when id go untouched and be able to chain kill. He had to kite kill if he wanted to be able to kill it and would need 80% power to do it. In rivervale with blightrats where blue to green id go pull 15-20 of em and go untocuhed almost killing them. Did not need a healer just my defense buffs. I think that scaling is a bit much and i think it is other classes to. I have seen a troubador do similar things as i have with going unavoided. When it coems to group mobs i dont see this as big deal when getting in to group x2+ i think it is a big deal.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A way to fix this is one scale up buffs higher instead of havign to stack a bunch of up. This goes for all classes. Troub not being able to stack 4 stat songs but make there best one add 75ish in stats. Dont make group x2+ mobs skills based off there lvl. Keep there actual defense based on there lvl. Make there offensive skills be as high scaled as soe sees fit for that challenge. Such as a pure melee should have higher offensive skill than a caster mob. Like Zalak could still be lvl 54 mob easier for lvl 45ish peeps to dps on. When his offensive skills are equivalent to a lvl 58. You put inquisitor debuffs on drops it down to him basically being lvl 55. They could scale mobs that way though. Where offensive skills can fluxuate not based off mobs lvl. Some items have like +5 to class skills like protection etc. Well mobs should be able to scale up off of what there top raid trait is meant to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is where is I find a problem. As a guardian i duo'd coldtooth with a troubador with us both at lvl 44. That is not good for the game. Going untouched from defense and spell avoidance skills. I think another way things should drop down is scale everyones hp down but scale down hits and spell dmg from npcs. Make them alot more often to hit though. Such as being 1 shotted by a big nuke unless you resist is dumb. Scale it down to where it hits more often but isnt a 1 shot killer or make it the defining facotr on that mob and fix the aggro crap so if a mt goes down a skill like rescue could be a instant pull to the top like ae taunt was in eq1. Make top buffed hp around 8-10k in fabled where mobs hit 75% of time no matter what buffs you have scale down how much they stun or how long stuns last and scale down the dmg they hit for. Just my 2 cents</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also I think this would make mez a benefit on mobs that summon adds. Because you wouldnt want all those hits scaling around. Enchanters would be happier too.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by blueduckie on <span class=date_text>06-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:23 PM</span>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arsenal wrote:<BR> <P><EM><STRONG>My opinions have changed a lot from a few months ago, because my time in FoH has let me see a lot of the game I haven't seen before.</STRONG></EM></P> <P>I think most people's opinions would likely change after being in FoH (or a similar guild) for a couple months. I'm sure mine would. However, 99.99% of the people in the game are not and never will be (nor do they want to be). The game should not be balanced with the assumption that everyone is in a hard core raiding guild.</P> <P>Thats not to say that things shouldn't be changed of course....</P> <P>Let me just say this: <STRONG>Buff stacking is NOT the biggest problem with the current system</STRONG>.</P> <P>The biggest problems is that the formulas are built around thresholds. There is a fine line between when an encounter is nearly impossible and when it becomes trivial. Buff stacking just makes this problem much worse because if you can find the right things to stack, you can hit the thresholds easier. And during raids, this is also greatly exxagerrated because of the magnitude of the epic's DPS. There is just not enough in-betwen space where things are in the "challenging" realm. A difference of 10 points of one skill on one person in a 24 person raid could literally mean the difference between a near certain loss or an easy win. This is the ridiculous part of the current combat system - and why it is so frustrating for people to come to an agreement on how it should be fixed. The biggest part of the challenge of the raid is to come up with the correct buff combonations which then simply trivializes the content. Guilds that do not have access to these different classes struggle with basic raids while other guilds breeze through everything.</P> <P>The scary thing about the Guardian class is honestly that it is COMPLETELY dependent on buffs. Every non-buff CA we have is pretty blah and our class defining skills are flat out broken with no hope in sight to fix them. If you ran a balance test on all the classes in the game without using any buffs, you'd find the Guardian at the bottom of the heap with Enchanters and Bards. <STRONG> This is why Guardians are scared about the upcoming buff nerfage. When you take an honest look at the class and imagine all the buffs gone/nerfed - there really is not much else there. The way things currently stand, it would be very easy for the devs to send us into a prolonged gimpdom simply as a by product of fixing the combat system.<BR></STRONG> </P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Do not worry about the uber guild thing. Judging from you post, you have a much better understanding of the game then many of them do. Nice post.
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ibishi wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Well, there ya have it. guardians are whats overpowered and trivialize the game. If 3 or 4 FOH members say it, it must be gospel.. I guess we can close this thread up now. </BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV> <DIV>That bull is exactly why I didn't step in earlier to agree with Noah. Eventually I decided that it would be better for another guardian to come in on his side despite my affiliation. Noah and I don't see eye to eye on everything Uglak. And Noah knows this is not solely an issue of guardians being overpowered either. But Guardians are responsible for a lot of it, that can not be denied. I have consistently said I will reserve my judgment for the changes until I see and feel them. Combat in EQ2 feels like a marshmellow far too often, as if neither the mob's actions nor mine have much influence over the other. This has become far less true of epic content, but heroic and solo content is too broad to be adjusted so finely. I hope combat changes in a much broader sense. If you read threads I start, I have rather ambitious desires for how interactive and expansive combat and raid events should be.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by Ibishi on <SPAN class=date_text>06-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:43 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Noahs posts with have to stand or sink on their own merits. No amount of "I agree posts" will change that, expecially ones from his guildies. </P> <P>We have pretty much nailed it down here.</P> <P>1) These guardian hitpoint buff nerf's have no substantial effect whatsoever on game balance.</P> <P>2)Epic raid mobs do hit guardians, and there is no god mode, except perhaps on green/low blue mobs. No matter how much you try to stack defense buffs, level 57 epics can hit, and hit hard.</P> <P>3)The only "good side" of these nerfs are for guardians too lazy to stack their buffs</P> <P><BR>4)Game balance has nothing to do with grey guardian hitpoint buffs, it has to do with defense threshold, which many classes have defense buffs.</P> <P> </P> <P>Opinionated arguments are just that, opinions. For instance, the monk/guardian thing. Gage and me can roll around on the floor for 10 9 page long threads and get no where. Some believe monks should tank equal to guardians and lose their DPS. Some believe they should tank like guardians and keep their DPS. And others believe they should remain descent tanks, and have solid DPS. (Like they do now).</P> <P>No amount of arguing will change anyones stance or opinion on those types of posts. </P> <P>I do not care if your Noah, Moorguard or Pope Benedict. You post a guardian nerf / Class balance thread on this forum, you will be checked. Your argument will be measured. </P> <P>So, if thats your intent, its best to make "opinion posts" like gage, as those posts can rarely be resolved through reasoning. </P>
Sirrion77
06-24-2005, 04:47 PM
Depends on how bad they "nerf" tanks, all that will change is that a raid force will need 10-12 healers instead of 6-8 right now. Organised people will make it trivial again whatever sony does on classes. That's where how the encounter works and it's "tricks" that can make the difference. I say leave it as it is, analyse what classes have right now then modify encounter to match it. More timer failure (For dps) and more double/triple encounters with 2-3 MT =) or "Twists". Sirriun <div></div>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Noahs posts with have to stand or sink on their own merits. No amount of "I agree posts" will change that, expecially ones from his guildies. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I agree, and I don't think hes doing poorly. If I felt he was I'd speak to him in-game and stay out of it. Consider anything he has said near to what I would say. My agreement or disagreement with someone's posts is worth plenty.</FONT></P> <P>We have pretty much nailed it down here.</P> <P>1) These guardian hitpoint buff nerf's have no substantial effect whatsoever on game balance.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>That is an opinion I don't share.</FONT></P> <P>2)Epic raid mobs do hit guardians, and there is no god mode, except perhaps on green/low blue mobs. No matter how much you try to stack defense buffs, level 57 epics can hit, and hit hard.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I have said similar things about the difference between epic mobs and normal mobs, this was not always so. Noah, myself, and others remember the time when epics were the exact same story, especially when shrug off was > hero's armor. I disagree that it is acceptable that we still have god mode on any green or blue mob. If you don't stack buffs, level 57 epics will hit far less often than intended. Recently increased attack speed and level have been altered to mitigate the defense stacking available to us. We'll see how balanced the epics are in contrast to guardians after the combat changes, at the moment its pretty decent and entertainingly difficult. I am being entertained by these events, who would have guessed?</FONT></P> <P>3)The only "good side" of these nerfs are for guardians too lazy to stack their buffs</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>That is an opinion I don't share.</FONT></P> <P>4)Game balance has nothing to do with grey guardian hitpoint buffs, it has to do with defense threshold, which many classes have defense buffs.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Defense is more involved with god mode than the hitpoint buffs, but I don't believe we should be able to stack grey spells that are clearly meant to be replaced by latter spells. I have even made statements that we should be capable of only using one of the attacks in the taunting blow line of attacks as well. I've been pushing for this very change to hitpoint buffs for a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] long time, and will continue to push for the same re-cast being shared among the taunting blow line of spells; Taunting Blow, Taunting Challenge, Vengeful Strike, Slate's Invigorating Threat.</FONT></P> <P>Opinionated arguments are just that, opinions. For instance, the monk/guardian thing. Gage and me can roll around on the floor for 10 9 page long threads and get no where. Some believe monks should tank equal to guardians and lose their DPS. Some believe they should tank like guardians and keep their DPS. And others believe they should remain descent tanks, and have solid DPS. (Like they do now).</P> <P>No amount of arguing will change anyones stance or opinion on those types of posts. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yet here you are trying anyway. If you're going to make such lovely statements, I would think it better not to epitomize the ideal you attack. You've stated a round of opinions in this post I disagree with.</FONT></P> <P>I do not care if your Noah, Moorguard or Pope Benedict. You post a guardian nerf / Class balance thread on this forum, you will be checked. Your argument will be measured. </P> <P>So, if thats your intent, its best to make "opinion posts" like gage, as those posts can rarely be resolved through reasoning. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ibishi wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Noahs posts with have to stand or sink on their own merits. No amount of "I agree posts" will change that, expecially ones from his guildies. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I agree, and I don't think hes doing poorly. If I felt he was I'd speak to him in-game and stay out of it. Consider anything he has said near to what I would say. My agreement or disagreement with someone's posts is worth plenty.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>I am sorry, I assumed when you post this, you thought he needed your help with his argument.</FONT></P> <P>"Eventually I decided that it would be better for another guardian to come in on his side despite my affiliation."</P> <P>We have pretty much nailed it down here.</P> <P>1) These guardian hitpoint buff nerf's have no substantial effect whatsoever on game balance.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>That is an opinion I don't share.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Care to elaborate? What substantial effect do you feel these guardian grey hitpoint buffs have? Will it make killing blues more exciting? Make raid mobs less trivial?</FONT></P> <P>2)Epic raid mobs do hit guardians, and there is no god mode, except perhaps on green/low blue mobs. No matter how much you try to stack defense buffs, level 57 epics can hit, and hit hard.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I have said similar things about the difference between epic mobs and normal mobs, this was not always so. Noah, myself, and others remember the time when epics were the exact same story, especially when shrug off was > hero's armor. I disagree that it is acceptable that we still have god mode on any green or blue mob. If you don't stack buffs, level 57 epics will hit far less often than intended. Recently increased attack speed and level have been altered to mitigate the defense stacking available to us. We'll see how balanced the epics are in contrast to guardians after the combat changes, at the moment its pretty decent and entertainingly difficult. I am being entertained by these events, who would have guessed?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Ok, so you do agree here. Raid mobs can and do hit guardians, and they have no god mode, except with blues/greens.</FONT></P> <P>3)The only "good side" of these nerfs are for guardians too lazy to stack their buffs</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>That is an opinion I don't share.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Again, we need more details. What effect do these guardian hitpoint buffs have regarding gameplay?</FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>4)Game balance has nothing to do with grey guardian hitpoint buffs, it has to do with defense threshold, which many classes have defense buffs.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Defense is more involved with god mode than the hitpoint buffs, but I don't believe we should be able to stack grey spells that are clearly meant to be replaced by latter spells. I have even made statements that we should be capable of only using one of the attacks in the taunting blow line of attacks as well. I've been pushing for this very change to hitpoint buffs for a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] long time, and will continue to push for the same re-cast being shared among the taunting blow line of spells; Taunting Blow, Taunting Challenge, Vengeful Strike, Slate's Invigorating Threat.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>So, you do agree, defense is the culprit, yet, you still think the grey hitpoint nerf is a good thing, and would like to further see our taunts nerfed as well....</FONT></P> <P>Opinionated arguments are just that, opinions. For instance, the monk/guardian thing. Gage and me can roll around on the floor for 10 9 page long threads and get no where. Some believe monks should tank equal to guardians and lose their DPS. Some believe they should tank like guardians and keep their DPS. And others believe they should remain descent tanks, and have solid DPS. (Like they do now).</P> <P>No amount of arguing will change anyones stance or opinion on those types of posts. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yet here you are trying anyway. If you're going to make such lovely statements, I would think it better not to epitomize the ideal you attack. You've stated a round of opinions in this post I disagree with.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>I do not think you understand.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Argument #1</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>I feel Monks rock, should be able to tank like guardians and do awesome DPS.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Here, we cannot argue what you think monks "should be". Its based on your opinion. Nothing to talk about.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>Argument #2</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>I feel defense is overpowered , and epic mobs cannot hit a guardian with full buffs stacked.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>This argument, we can discuss/prove/disprove... </FONT><FONT color=#ffcc00>We can all go home, toss on the buffs and pull the mob...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00></FONT> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The first type of discussion is where gage thrives. And there can be no winner. Either you agree with him, or you do not. Flame the opinions, try to convince them your opinion is "better".</P> <P>The secound type is what Noahs good at. He can usually break out the math/chart and show what he is talking about. thats why he has two good posts stickied up above. Also, things such as the "naked Noah" posts... You can easly parse, log in and pull, etc and see if it is true or false.<BR></P> <P>Hope that clears things up what I meant on the opinion thing. </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you would like to elaborate on how the hitpoint buff nerf helped the game, I would like to hear it. I said that it has no substantial effect on gameplay, and you disagreed. So, what substantial effect does it have?</DIV> <DIV> Will it make killing green mobs less trivial? Raid mobs more challenging?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I fail to see how a few hundred hitpoints from guardian buffs change anything, except for the fact that we no longer will have to cast multiple buffs. </DIV>
<DIV>Everquest and Everquest II are based upon limited player capability which forces interdependency and allows them to control the level of difficulty in an event to a fine degree. Going forward into expansions we will only get more and more in these spell lines and content will have to be balanced around the assumption of their use just as content became balanced around the use of spells like 75% slow and complete heal in EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that in mind, I would rather such a use not exist to begin with. Perhaps our current level buffs will become more potent, perhaps they all will, but they should be views as THE spell in that line that you will use. Likewise it allows critically powerful spells to be introduced to the line rather than incremental ones, because it will be the only one we can cast. Perhaps the Master I-IV ranks of spells will be made to unlock new abilities within the spell to simulate the "Ancient" spell types of EQ1. Furthermore if we are designed to be able to cast all of them at once, the other fighter classes will be given similar capability. It will not be an advantage to us. It will be something that is considered a feature of our class and be involved in the balance between fighters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aesthetically, I don't consider it fun to maintain several spells to produce minute, unfortunately necessary, effect on the mob. I want more potent and critically useful attacks, and if I ever need to spam it will be to counter a very desperate issue that arises. Aggro should matter to tanks, but we should focus on dynamic tanking capability. As we improve aggro should become an assumption to us as we gain the time to participate in heroic opprtunities and maintain other effects on the mob to improve our tanking as needed by individual situations. This is the direction I would prefer us to take. It is not served by incremental and weak abilities being used 40 and 50 levels after learning them.</DIV>
Shizzirri
06-25-2005, 12:34 AM
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirrion77 wrote:<BR>Depends on how bad they "nerf" tanks, all that will change is that a raid force will need 10-12 healers instead of 6-8 right now.<BR><BR>Organised people will make it trivial again whatever sony does on classes. That's where how the encounter works and it's "tricks" that can make the difference.<BR><BR>I say leave it as it is, analyse what classes have right now then modify encounter to match it. More timer failure (For dps) and more double/triple encounters with 2-3 MT =) or "Twists".<BR><BR>Sirriun<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You can actually manage in most raids with less than 6, we did darathar the other night with 4 healers, and to take down a red mob with 4 healers well its um weaksauce.</P> <DIV>I didn't agree with the buff changes until I actually saw our guild pull this off, I'm sure it had hardly nothing to do with the fact that I can stack 4 guardian HP buffs but still to be able to knock off a mob like this with 4 healers should say something with how powerful guardians are atm, every other class almost has been nerfed in some major way (zerkers with rampage, wizard's AE's, etc) its our turn now and just deal with it and move on with your lives.</DIV>
<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ibishi wrote:<BR> <DIV>Everquest and Everquest II are based upon limited player capability which forces interdependency and allows them to control the level of difficulty in an event to a fine degree. Going forward into expansions we will only get more and more in these spell lines and content will have to be balanced around the assumption of their use just as content became balanced around the use of spells like 75% slow and complete heal in EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With that in mind, I would rather such a use not exist to begin with. Perhaps our current level buffs will become more potent, perhaps they all will, but they should be views as THE spell in that line that you will use. Likewise it allows critically powerful spells to be introduced to the line rather than incremental ones, because it will be the only one we can cast. Perhaps the Master I-IV ranks of spells will be made to unlock new abilities within the spell to simulate the "Ancient" spell types of EQ1. Furthermore if we are designed to be able to cast all of them at once, the other fighter classes will be given similar capability. It will not be an advantage to us. It will be something that is considered a feature of our class and be involved in the balance between fighters.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aesthetically, I don't consider it fun to maintain several spells to produce minute, unfortunately necessary, effect on the mob. I want more potent and critically useful attacks, and if I ever need to spam it will be to counter a very desperate issue that arises. Aggro should matter to tanks, but we should focus on dynamic tanking capability. As we improve aggro should become an assumption to us as we gain the time to participate in heroic opprtunities and maintain other effects on the mob to improve our tanking as needed by individual situations. This is the direction I would prefer us to take. It is not served by incremental and weak abilities being used 40 and 50 levels after learning them.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I could agree with that. but, there are alot of IFs on there, IFs we have no control over. It depends on the developers.. If Noahs post had said, our buffs no longer stack, BUT our top buff gained a %bonus then this thread wouldnt have ever flew the way it did. But, instead, it was a WOOT overpowered guardians got nerfed... Or at least, thats the way in came off to me.</P> <P>To be honest, I have lost faith in this dev team. I just have. I wouldnt put it past them to [Removed for Content] guardians down to nothing and take 5+ months to straighten it out.</P> <P>I would not put it passed them to change fighters/nerf DPS so that our guild has 10 fighters sitting outside the zone trading places for the tank spots at each raid, while the healers and scouts/mages fill out the raid. And yes, I am talking zerkers, bruisers, monks, guards, everything. If theyre all made into "tanks", and cant dps their way out of a wet paperbag, we will have to fill those slots with usefull classes (healers/DPS/enchanters. In fact, this is my worse fear when they talk about archtype balance and the combat changes. Raids as they are not just do not have a use for that many tanks, and I dont want all my fighter buddies having to pick [Removed for Content], rendered useless... I do not trust the devs to get it right, based on their own statements and preformance up to this point.</P> <P>And when they get it wrong, I do not trust them to fix it in a a timely manner. </P> <P> </P>
<DIV>You have no option other than to trust the developers. Hostility will only get you so far. There are other games out now and in development that have different balance structures. Specifically those games with PvP content tend to allow fighters a healthy amount of damage. I understand your fears and I agree that this could lead to an undesireable situation, as it has in the original EverQuest. Fighters should have some ability to stack and perform when not the "primary" tank in situations where there are only one or two "primary" tanks. My feeling is that we should have more capability to stack towards tanking, rather than DPS. I have made posts and various comments toward that. Currently the least stacking function in combat is tanking, and that should change so that events are more inclusive to the fighter class. So that the fighter class performs a similar role in raid events as it does in single groups. Raid roles for every class should be an evolution of their role in a group. For tanks this is often not so.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:48 PM</span>
<DIV>Ermm, I have to trust em eh?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me type up something real quick, make a new post, and you can tell me if it is out of the realm of possibility...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>k?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Is what you dont seem to get is, eq1 had NO LIMIT on raiders... bring all those warriors, zerg it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This one has a 24 limit. That can make it much, much worse...</DIV><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>06-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:05 PM</span>
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