What I heard at the fanfaire that will affect us.

[Noah]

<DIV>I am still in a small haze from Vegas, but there were a few good points brought up that I wanted to share with you guys.  I wont remember everything (and there is no way I asked every question I should have) but here is what I have to report back on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Skills that are shared vs a mob will be useable.  Example, I use Cleave on a mob...another guardian now gets "bla bla to powerful" crap.  The damage of the attacks will soon affect the mob but the secondary effects will not stack (stifles, stuns, slows).  So rejoice you can use your skills even if another guardian is in a raid/group.  Coming "soon".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Buff stacking will become limited.  Not sure what this means but I think the "HP" buffs will be adjusted to stacking will be limited.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Skills are getting a total overhaul.  The HTL line may progress (it was talked about) beyond lvl 15.  Your gray skills will not be as useful as they are now... App1 vs Adept 3 will have a much larger difference.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Protection lines will not be adjusted it seems.... IE - they are still crap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-PROTECTION WILL AFFECT RAID CONTENT.  All skills will work on any mob actually... the 2ndary effects will just not work.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Raid content will contain new challenges and 2ndary tanks will be needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Some of these comments will hit all classes.  The spell/skill overhaul is being done slowly and carefully.  I don't expect them to have it out by Splitpaw but definately by the expansion (I'm going to say 6-8 weeks).  These changes will alter the game we play enormously and need to be done correctly.  I have faith in these guys after speaking with them for hours and hours about nearly everything in the game.  I suggest if you are bored... don't just get up and quit but stick around to see if these changes / expansion are good for you.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There might have been more info given that I am just not remembering.  Perhaps when my BtA (blood to alcohol) level becomes more normal, I'll remember a few more things.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Mig]

<blockquote><hr>DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<DIV> <DIV>-Buff stacking will become limited.  Not sure what this means but I think the "HP" buffs will be adjusted to stacking will be limited.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Skills are getting a total overhaul.  The HTL line may progress (it was talked about) beyond lvl 15.  Your gray skills will not be as useful as they are now... </DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>I'm not one to say I told you so, but I told you so. I posted months ago that it made no sense a low level skill (i.e. hold the line) that we got when as a different CLASS would still be viable at 50th. I've also stated that our HP buffing is grossly broken, and that grey skills like grey gear shouldn't be utilized anymore when you level up. Thbbbbbbddddt! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />Now the fact they are going to do nothing major to our protection line leads me to belive that either we are using it wrong, or there just needs to be a minor tweak on it here or there.p.s. Our secondary effects having no effect, just turns our skills into very inefficient low powered nukes. I'll just save my power for taunting and buffing then.<p>Message Edited by Migyb on <span class=date_text>06-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:33 PM</span>

[Noah]

<P>Other guardians lament when nearly all skills cant be used vs a raid mob since 1 or 2 other guardians have the skill locked on that mob.  Retaliate (large dd hit) will be open for epics mobs and over all the "other" guardians in a raid will be able to use some power for once.  At the same time, other guardians will be able to "taunt" the main mob and not get blocked by the MTank.  This can help them get 2nd /3rd agro spots in a raid situation for when the MT dies.  At the moment, switching tanks in a fight when one dies is pretty tuff to control. </P> <P>As far as the protection lines go... they have a limited recast on them (if at all) so in group settings it might be good but in a raid setting, there is no point to using them at the moment (due to the sheer damage per hit mobs do).  </P>

[Arsen]

<P>Noah - did they give any idication as to how the stacking limits would size up?  Can you hit them in a single group?  Can you hit them solo if you are well equipped?  Are they going through all of the skill lines to determine what stacks with what, or are they just going to put a soft cap on the effectiveness of the skill like they currently do with stats?</P> <P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR><BR><BR>I'm not one to say I told you so, but I told you so.<BR><BR>I posted months ago that it made no sense a low level skill (i.e. hold the line) that we got when as a different CLASS would still be viable at 50th.<BR><BR> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>If anything Migby, this just proves that what you told us was wrong.  These skills are useful now, even if they are grey.  That may not be the case in the future, but the discussion was not revolving around speculation about what the devs intentions are for these skills - just that they worked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The protection thing... yeah, I don't really get that.  It still seems like they need to tweak it so that we mitigate the damage coming in.  I suppose they are trying to avoid the problem of tank stacking with these abilities where multiple tanks just protect the main tank and spread the damage around, but it just isn't useful for anything the way it is.</DIV>

[Mig]

<blockquote><hr>Arsenal wrote: <DIV>If anything Migby, this just proves that what you told us was wrong.  These skills are useful now, even if they are grey.  That may not be the case in the future, but the discussion was not revolving around speculation about what the devs intentions are for these skills - just that they worked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>Man, that's good spin! I think the white house is calling you. If you actually had read what I said, I made the point that grey skills aren't needed, I didn't use them, and I didn't see the point. I still don't use my grey skills (with the exception of the last 30second buff we get), and I still don't have problems with tanking or agro. Now could I have been 100% ubah if I had used all my grey skills, and upgraded them all to adept 3, or wasted plats on buying masters for them? I guess...But like I said, I really didn't have a problem tanking my way to 50th, and my guildmates never complained either.

[Noah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arsenal wrote:<BR> <P>Noah - did they give any idication as to how the stacking limits would size up?  Can you hit them in a single group?  Can you hit them solo if you are well equipped?  Are they going through all of the skill lines to determine what stacks with what, or are they just going to put a soft cap on the effectiveness of the skill like they currently do with stats?</P> <P></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>TBD...or atleast I didnt hear anything about that stuff.  A good amount of questions about spells/skills were answered with "Revamp addresses this" or "We are not opposed to that idea" or "its on our radar".   Basically saying... it has been adjusted and will needed to be tested a ton before hitting Live.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Arsen]

<P>Lol, who is spinning what here Migyb?  Nobody here is saying HTL is NEEDED, just that it is worth using.  You used to go around berating people as being stupid for even thinking a grey CA might be useful and now when you have been proven thouroughly wrong, you are here trying to tell people you told them so?</P> <P>Just for old times sake... a few nice quotes:</P> <P><BR><EM>If your USING gray arts your gimping yourself. Might as well use gray gear, and fight gray mobs.</EM></P> <P><EM>...</EM></P> <P><EM>Think you need to come back to reality man. </EM></P> <P><EM>Gray skills, provide little or no use to you! What is the point of leveling, and getting new skills if they intended us to use the same skills over and over till level 50!? </EM></P> <P><EM>HTL IS very effective for a FIGHTER, but were GUARDIANS! We've out grown that skill! I hold agro just fine, and I don't even HTL on my hot bar.</EM></P> <P><EM>...</EM></P> <P><EM>I'm 20% to lvl 38. I'll trust the my own expereince and dev posts about game mechanics, and HARD parsed data before I trust anecdotal evidence offered on these boards. </EM></P> <P><EM>Have fun wasting gold on upgrading useless spells.</EM></P> <P> </P> <P>PS.  Is it necessary that you mention how much your guildmates love you and how great of a tank you are in every post?  This really is unrelated to the HTL debate and yet it seems to be the crux of your argument.  Sorry man, I don't know your guildmates, and I don't trust their judgement - nothing against them of course, but that is a poor basis for an argument.  I don't really have aggro problems as a tank either - but that doesn't mean I shouldn't try to maximize effectiveness to allow the DPS classes to crank it up another notch or two.</P> <P>PSS.  Sorry Noah... didn't mean to go into all this on your thread.  I'm done here <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P>

[Mig]

Nice job picking quotes out of context. But whatever, I fully admit, your right and I am wrong. Grey arts, and grey skills are currently at the momment, useful and viable at all levels even up to 50th. I took 'em off my hotbar, because I thought the whole point of skills going grey was that they were no longer useful. Turns out the combat system was bugged, and they are still useful, and in some cases even more so then our properly labled skills. Oh well, apparently I'm the only guardian around that didn't rely on grey skills. No biggie, no plat lost on masters or rares, and my learning curve will be nill when they change all the arts around.Edited to be less inflammatory.<p>Message Edited by Migyb on <span class=date_text>06-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:11 PM</span>

[Venomo]

this is what someone else said about the guardian changes:"Rather than guardians being clearly the best tanks, their buff stacking will be reduced and some of their tanking abilities will be more evenly distributed among other fighter subclasses."F***inkg marvellous, ooh a class can overbuff itself? People whining that we can buff our hp too high?Shall we try and fix their completely useless line of spells that are meant to define their class? Nah just nerf em and make all the other tanks better...Seriously, crap like this makes me really want to bin the whole thing. I appreciate that class balancing needs to be done, bugs need to be fixed, things change after testing etc; but SoE made a rod for their own backs when they stupidly stated all fighter will be able to tank the same. The way they are achieving this is by making all the fighter exactly the same.Lets seeVanguard Armour? Nope, no different to plate, oh and zerkers and templars can use itTower Shields? Ooh a 'guardian' with a big shield! That makes sense, ahh sod it, give it to zerkers as well, as people always go beserk BEHIND A 5ft TOILET DOOR ( oh and the hybrid tanks we moaning about kite shields, make the the same )Protect line of spells? Marvellous idea, but er aren't we meant to keep aggro? Ok we lose it now and again if we forget the 40th buff of the fight, but by the time you cast it for your maybe 5% chance to intercept the Party member is dead.So Guardians eh? What are we? What are we guarding? Well at this rate we'll be 'guarding' the pile of coats while everyone else goes to the raid party.Give us some hope devs please, our class defining spells are appaling, overbuffing for pure hp for raiding should be adressed, but give us a reason to want to play a guardian PLEASESorry, grumpy post <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> will we ever get any bloody love?

[Sirrion77]

So as i understand it?: - No more 10K hp MT, more like 8K... but they also said the fabled items should get upgraded to have greated difference from legendery and fabled. Is it still true? Let's hope that AD1 to AD3 adds more than 10 hp as well =). - Raid DPS is going to be a lot higher which is good, fight are too long atm. - Grey skills will be obsolete (as they should) so don't bother upgrading to ADIII/Master I - We will be able to manage hate list with 2-3 fighters at the top. Well i just hope they don't change Defence skill/buffs and they implement master III spells soon. Venomous, guardians have been very lucky, which means it's time for other classes to be the flavor of the month. Sirriun Unrest <div></div>

[Zaboo]

<P>yea im trying hard not to weigh in until the combat revamp is out and finished for all to see but the way it seems to be shaping up i'm getting paladin envy!  id gladly trade my guardian protection skills for some heals and resurrection.</P> <P> </P> <P>At least before we had a few more mitigation points using towers.</P>

[Oakwood]

<P>I was in all of the panels, and asked a few of the Guard questions (like the one about HTL).</P> <P>Basically, then entire skill, spell, and combat system is getting a nearly total rewrite.  Much of what we know now will need to be discarded and relearned.  One of the main things he is doing is reducing the number of multi-effect skills.  There will be one or two big buffs for each thing, rather than a bunch of small buffs that must be stacked in various combinations.  We also will not be able to stack defense buffs.  They will be upgrades of each other, and only the best one will count.</P> <P>Also, dot and effect stacking on mobs will be useable.  Two guards can hit maim, or mangle.  The debuff portion will only efect the mob once, but the damage will hit from each character.  Dots will stack damage, only one of each dot per character but multiple characters can use the same dot.</P> <P>Another nice thing is this new stacking will allow us to use abilities with stun/stifle against any mob.  If the mob is immune to stifle, the rest of the skill will still work (taunt for example) just the stifle part will be ignored.</P> <P>He will be putting in some upgrades to HTL, this will be one of the differences between Guard and Zerker.  He didn't explain what that means, but thats what he said.  They also would not speak much about how/if/what changes will be made to the relative tanking ability of the various fighter classes.  It is something they are looking at.  The impression I got is they themselves are not yet sure about what they are going to do on it.</P> <P>About the intervene line, he was asked about it, the official answer is that intervene type spells are to be used in emergencies when you need to take a hit for someone, not to be kept up all the time, and you have to pay a price for the ability to take the damage off someone else.  I am pretty sure he has no idea why that doesn't work, but there wasn't time to try to go into greater detail on it (one hour panel, lots of questions)</P> <P>On stats, wisdom will affect spell resists as much as agility affects melee avoidance.  Start thinking about wisdom gear.  And tell your spell casting friends to work on int.  Int will be to spell damage as str is to melee damage.  </P> <P>Fighters will be taking an across the board damage reduction.  Zerkers, monks and bruisers will no longer be able to outdamage assasins and wizards over the course of longer fights.  This hits us and crusaders as well, but since most guards see damage as a secondary task at best, not such the big deal (unless it has a major negative impact on aggro generation).</P> <P>Wards will account for mitigation! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P>Cleric and Shaman heals will generate agro for the healer instead of the target (druids already work this way).  We will need to watch aggro on them very closely until they have time to learn to manage heal agro.  Basically, if you can keep aggro off a druid, you are fine, if you can't, you are going to have troubles.</P> <P>Talked to Dymus for a long while about raids, he has some cool ideas, and wants to implement more involved raid content, as well as progressive content.  Expect to see several hour raids and multi day raids again, although probably not very soon.  Also, he is looking to add raid content that will require crafters, like the way you needed an alchemist for the plague event.</P> <P>All I can think of right now.  Will post more if I remember more.  </P> <P> </P>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote:<p>I was in all of the panels, and asked a few of the Guard questions (like the one about HTL).</p> <p>Basically, then entire skill, spell, and combat system is getting a nearly total rewrite.  Much of what we know now will need to be discarded and relearned.  One of the main things he is doing is reducing the number of multi-effect skills.  There will be one or two big buffs for each thing, rather than a bunch of small buffs that must be stacked in various combinations.  We also will not be able to stack defense buffs.  They will be upgrades of each other, and only the best one will count.</p> <p>Also, dot and effect stacking on mobs will be useable.  Two guards can hit maim, or mangle.  The debuff portion will only efect the mob once, but the damage will hit from each character.  Dots will stack damage, only one of each dot per character but multiple characters can use the same dot.</p> <p>Another nice thing is this new stacking will allow us to use abilities with stun/stifle against any mob.  If the mob is immune to stifle, the rest of the skill will still work (taunt for example) just the stifle part will be ignored.</p> <p>He will be putting in some upgrades to HTL, this will be one of the differences between Guard and Zerker.  He didn't explain what that means, but thats what he said.  They also would not speak much about how/if/what changes will be made to the relative tanking ability of the various fighter classes.  It is something they are looking at.  The impression I got is they themselves are not yet sure about what they are going to do on it.</p> <p>About the intervene line, he was asked about it, the official answer is that intervene type spells are to be used in emergencies when you need to take a hit for someone, not to be kept up all the time, and you have to pay a price for the ability to take the damage off someone else.  I am pretty sure he has no idea why that doesn't work, but there wasn't time to try to go into greater detail on it (one hour panel, lots of questions)</p> <p>On stats, wisdom will affect spell resists as much as agility affects melee avoidance.  Start thinking about wisdom gear.  And tell your spell casting friends to work on int.  Int will be to spell damage as str is to melee damage.  </p> <p>Fighters will be taking an across the board damage reduction.  Zerkers, monks and bruisers will no longer be able to outdamage assasins and wizards over the course of longer fights.  This hits us and crusaders as well, but since most guards see damage as a secondary task at best, not such the big deal (unless it has a major negative impact on aggro generation).</p> <p>Wards will account for mitigation! :smileyvery-happy:</p> <p>Cleric and Shaman heals will generate agro for the healer instead of the target (druids already work this way).  We will need to watch aggro on them very closely until they have time to learn to manage heal agro.  Basically, if you can keep aggro off a druid, you are fine, if you can't, you are going to have troubles.</p> <p>Talked to Dymus for a long while about raids, he has some cool ideas, and wants to implement more involved raid content, as well as progressive content.  Expect to see several hour raids and multi day raids again, although probably not very soon.  Also, he is looking to add raid content that will require crafters, like the way you needed an alchemist for the plague event.</p> <p>All I can think of right now.  Will post more if I remember more.  </p> <hr></blockquote>Hmm, interesting.. I guess they wont be able to use the "this isnt EQ1" line anymore =P </span><div></div>

[Sirrion77]

<P>Looks like we are finally entering the Beta III phase woot, can't wait for the Release Candidate 1 <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P> <P>Sirriun</P>

[Arsen]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakwood wrote:<BR> <P>He will be putting in some upgrades to HTL, this will be one of the differences between Guard and Zerker.  He didn't explain what that means, but thats what he said. <BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Thats kind of interesting.  I imagine the concept of HTL rooting you will stay, and maybe when that is active, we will get some extra defensive bonuses and have the hate proc at the same time.  Maybe it would have a few more drawbacks like a long refresh or something so that you couldn't be canceling and reusing it all the time like the current one.  That should make a fairly well balanced skill compared to zerkers who would be more mobile and could quickly generate hate with more mobility.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Might be interesting to have a raid where the boss would essentially kill anyone that wasn't HTLing and you'd have to come up with strategies to handle adds and what not with off tanks.</DIV>

[JNewby]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sirrion77 wrote:<BR>So as i understand it?:<BR><BR>- No more 10K hp MT, more like 8K... but they also said the fabled items should get upgraded to have greated difference from legendery and fabled. Is it still true? <BR>Let's hope that AD1 to AD3 adds more than 10 hp as well =).<BR><BR>- Raid DPS is going to be a lot higher which is good, fight are too long atm.<BR><BR>- Grey skills will be obsolete (as they should) so don't bother upgrading to ADIII/Master I<BR><BR>- We will be able to manage hate list with 2-3 fighters at the top.<BR><BR><BR>Well i just hope they don't change Defence skill/buffs and they implement master III spells soon.<BR><BR>Venomous, guardians have been very lucky, which means it's time for other classes to be the flavor of the month.<BR><BR>Sirriun<BR>Unrest<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>We have been very lucky cause we can do 1 thing? tank... so now we cant tank and thats good eh... hrm I think it should be directed somewhere else zerkers maybe who can tank like guards and dps like warlocks... either way its not like guards have been the best overall class.. we are jsut a class taht works.. like templars warlocks....

[Corv]

<div></div><div></div><span><blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote:<p> There will be one or two big buffs for each thing, rather than a bunch of small buffs that must be stacked in various combinations.  We also will not be able to stack defense buffs.  They will be upgrades of each other, and only the best one will count.</p><hr></blockquote> Did they mean our HP buffs won't stack?  Currently no defense effects from our buffs stack.  The strongest one is all that is applied.  (e.g. If you have our group defense buff up and fire up a stance that gives defense and mitigation, all you get is the mitigation)  Currently, Fortified stance is a little gimped because, although it lowers your run-speed and offensive skills, it really only gives a relatively small ammount of mitigation.  (That mitigation is often worth it though, so I guess I shouldn't complain. ) Ever since they upped the duration of our HP buffs I've been waiting for the nerf to stacking.  That is not unexpected, although many have become accustomed to being able to buff their group's HP by over 1000 and it's going to be painful having that taken away.   <span> <blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote: He will be putting in some upgrades to HTL, this will be one of the differences between Guard and Zerker.  He didn't explain what that means, but thats what he said.  They also would not speak much about how/if/what changes will be made to the relative tanking ability of the various fighter classes.  It is something they are looking at.  The impression I got is they themselves are not yet sure about what they are going to do on it. <hr></blockquote></span> If non-druids suddenly start generating more aggro and scouts/mages start doing more damage, comparatively, holding aggro will be more difficult.  Conversely, if they make protect work on raid content and give us some upgrades to HTL we could well generate a lot more aggro than classes that have, historically, relied upon their superior DPS.  (e.g. Zerkers)  </span><span>I'm getting a feeling that they might be putting more emphasis on both Guardian's ability to generate aggro and the importance of aggro itself.   Of course, that would make Guard's *more* essential on raids, which I'm not sure if they're trying to do based on some of the other things we're hearing. </span><span><blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote: About the intervene line, he was asked about it, the official answer is that intervene type spells are to be used in emergencies when you need to take a hit for someone, not to be kept up all the time, and you have to pay a price for the ability to take the damage off someone else.  I am pretty sure he has no idea why that doesn't work, but there wasn't time to try to go into greater detail on it (one hour panel, lots of questions)<hr></blockquote> I'm not sure why they can't understand that "when you need to take a hit for someone", you *taunt*!  :p  Seems like a fairly basic concept.  I'd probably use the line occasionally if they added a taunt component to it so it wasn't a waste of time better spent taunting...  It would also be nice if you could cast it on someone without switching targets, but that falls more into the realm of interface enhancements.  Guardian sphere probably shouldn't require you to target a group member either.  (It's a group spell that requires you to target someone in your group!)  That would probably have been fixed by now if anyone ever actually used the silly spell.  </span><span><blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote: On stats, wisdom will affect spell resists as much as agility affects melee avoidance.  Start thinking about wisdom gear.  And tell your spell casting friends to work on int.  Int will be to spell damage as str is to melee damage. <hr></blockquote> While our meelee stats all get tremendous boosts from other class' buffs, wisdom is actually a very tough stat to raise.  Hopefully they will add some wis buffs for other classes, but this may wind up being one of the most difficult stats for us to raise very high. <span><blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote: Fighters will be taking an across the board damage reduction.  Zerkers, monks and bruisers will no longer be able to outdamage assasins and wizards over the course of longer fights.  This hits us and crusaders as well, but since most guards see damage as a secondary task at best, not such the big deal (unless it has a major negative impact on aggro generation). <hr></blockquote></span> Scouts currently do allright, although they could use a little tweaking upwards, but as in EQ1 for the longest time, wizards just get shafted.  They don't just need to lower  fighter-type damage, they need to reduce resists on high-end mobs.  It's not just bruisers and zerkers out-damaging wizards currently.   (I've out-damaged wizards while tanking due to the absurdly high elemental resists on some mobs!)  <span><blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote: Talked to Dymus for a long while about raids, he has some cool ideas, and wants to implement more involved raid content, as well as progressive content.  Expect to see several hour raids and multi day raids again, although probably not very soon.  Also, he is looking to add raid content that will require crafters, like the way you needed an alchemist for the plague event.  <hr></blockquote></span>Raids that require >5 hours in *one* sitting suck, IMHO.  Even if you have that kind of time to play, it's just grueling and one of the things to hate about the game rather than love.  What would be nice is if they started using teleporters, locked doors, keys, etc. so that a zone might take days to do, but you can do it in stages and pick up where you left off even if everybody leaves.  (i.e. Fight your way through a section, kill boss for a key, come back another day and use the key to skip to another part of the instance.  Keys could be consumed upon use so you can't just farm the part of the dungeon with the best loot.)  </span>Currently, you can't log in a safe-spot of an instance and come back to it the next day like you could in places such as NTOV in EQ1.  It would be nice if they changed a few game mechanics to make raids a little less brain-dead.  It sounds like they are getting rid of the buff-stacking mechanics that currently make some mobs trivial provided you have the right classes in your MT group.  However, one can only hope they retune mobs that would be next-to-impossible to do without that kind of stacking.  EQ1 had it's share of mobs that were next-to-impossible until you found a cheap exploit.  Take the Avatar of War for instance.  I don't think anybody managed to take him down until they discovered that divine intervention (or whatever the buff that had a chance to CH you upon HP reaching 0 was called...) triggered 100% of the time if your charisma was high enough.  What would be nice would be if they brought back mechanics such as using terrain to shield people from AE's.  (Although they'd need to get rid of the LOS requirement for heals.)  It would also be nice if they increased the leash range of some boss mobs so that you could choose your terrain.  In short, it would be nice if they got rid of cheap exploits, but made the use of terrain and other strategies more important.  Encounters that make more effective use of multiple tanks wouldn't hurt either.  Mobs that randomly switch among the top few targets on their hate list or just hit them all would reduce the importance of that one perfect MT group.  <p>Message Edited by Corvan on <span class=date_text>06-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:05 PM</span>

[Noah]

<P>I believe I also heard that with the "healing fix" we will be losing the threat from reactives.... but, our threat skills will be increased in effectiveness.</P> <P> </P> <P>Some information about how the skill revamp will work:  when the skill is upgraded, the power will no longer increase but remain the same cost as app1 vs adept 3/Master 1 etc etc.  This mostly helps casters a great deal since the power increase on spells was large at times with upgrades.... but we will benefit from it as well.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Divy]

<DIV>If thay plan on obsoleting grey skills I sincerely hope thay plan to implement upgrades. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1 Grey Spell is our best aggro while another contains our only spell avoidance and I'm assuming stacking will remove the HP bonus of using the other grey spells.</DIV>

[Rorrak]

<P>I wonder what obsolete means (as far as gray skills go)?  I still use "Taunt" and "Wild Swing" to complete low power HOs if I'm ever running out of power and need some more damage.  Will it be a "target too powerful" kind of message or just the skills will add maybe 1 hate or do 1 damage respectively kind of thing?</P> <P>- Rorrak</P>

[Huna]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rorrak wrote:<p>I wonder what obsolete means (as far as gray skills go)?  I still use "Taunt" and "Wild Swing" to complete low power HOs if I'm ever running out of power and need some more damage.  Will it be a "target too powerful" kind of message or just the skills will add maybe 1 hate or do 1 damage respectively kind of thing?</p> <p>- Rorrak</p><hr></blockquote> It would be somewhat nice if the grey taunts did 1 hate or something really low.  That way offtanks could finish HOs without having to worry about building up too much hate.  I know they can use them now and they shouldn't have as much hate as the MT, but still it would be kinda nice to not have to worry about it at all.</span><div></div>

[Oakwood]

<P>thought of a few more things</P> <P>Healing agro will be reduced across the board.  So while clerics and shamans will finaly have to deal with agro, it will not be as bad as current druid agro.</P> <P>On the long raids, they are looking at a few of these, but there will still be the 10 minute zone in-kill the boss-camp raids as well.</P>

[Nibbl]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakwood wrote:<BR> <P>Basically, then entire skill, spell, and combat system is getting a nearly total rewrite.  Much of what we know now will need to be discarded and relearned.  One of the main things he is doing is <FONT color=#ff0000>reducing the number of multi-effect skills</FONT>.  There will be <FONT color=#ff0000>one or two big buffs for each thing</FONT>, <FONT color=#ff0000>rather than a bunch of small buffs that must be stacked in various combinations</FONT>.  We also will not be able to stack defense buffs.  They will be upgrades of each other, and only the best one will count.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Hmm, like EQ I</FONT></P> <P>Also, dot and effect stacking on mobs will be useable.  Two guards can hit maim, or mangle.  The debuff portion will only efect the mob once, but the damage will hit from each character.  Dots will stack damage, only one of each dot per character but multiple characters can use the same dot.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Hmm, like EQ I, at least for casters...  I guess this will apply to caster DoTs as well?  Damage portion will stack, other items such as debuffs will only be used from first DoT or highest lvl DoT?</FONT></P> <P>Another nice thing is this new stacking will allow us to use abilities with stun/stifle against any mob.  If the mob is immune to stifle, the rest of the skill will still work (taunt for example) just the stifle part will be ignored.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>This a good way of implementing this <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </FONT></P> <P>He will be putting in some upgrades to HTL, this will be one of the differences between Guard and Zerker.  He didn't explain what that means, but thats what he said.  They also would not speak much about how/if/what changes will be made to the relative tanking ability of the various fighter classes.  It is something they are looking at.  The impression I got is they themselves are not yet sure about what they are going to do on it.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>I hope they dont reduce or eliminate the gards defensive and agro control advantage over other fighters, that is what defines us. PLZ SOE dont make us wimpy gards. </FONT></P> <P>About the intervene line, he was asked about it, the official answer is that intervene type spells are to be used in emergencies when you need to take a hit for someone, not to be kept up all the time, and you have to pay a price for the ability to take the damage off someone else.  I am pretty sure he has no idea why that doesn't work, but there wasn't time to try to go into greater detail on it (one hour panel, lots of questions)</P><FONT color=#ff0000><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3> <P>This could be difficult to use, if a healer pulls aggro our first reaction is to taunt it off, not throw up a damage absorbing buff. Unless of course the buff has a 75%+ chance to take the full hit, otherwise not very useful. If a group member pulls aggro, im gonna be spaming taunts. Hope SOE factors that in, dont want a useless skill that I wont use because of it lack of effectiveness. Also, wouldn’t the price be already evident, i.e. power cost and absorbing the damage, do we really need another skill that reduces our offense?</P></FONT></FONT> <P>On stats, wisdom will affect spell resists as much as agility affects melee avoidance.  Start thinking about wisdom gear.  And tell your spell casting friends to work on int.  Int will be to spell damage as str is to melee damage.  </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Hmm, like EQ I... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>Fighters will be taking an across the board damage reduction.  Zerkers, monks and bruisers will no longer be able to outdamage assasins and wizards over the course of longer fights.  This hits us and crusaders as well, but since most guards see damage as a secondary task at best, not such the big deal (unless it has a major negative impact on aggro generation).</P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=3> <P>Although I’m not in favor of nerfs, my recent parses of raid encounters have shown wizards are gimped big time over long battles. Have one parse where a zerker did 3x the damage of a wizzy. But do you nerf melee classes or increase certain mage class DPS? Don’t see other mage classes gimped (i.e. warlock and necros), but they are not much better then a zerker over a long encounter, only slightly better 5-15%.  Of course short encoutners with a small group skew all these numbers, good luck balancing this SOE <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> errr<BR><BR>DISCLAIMER: I know parsing fights can be effected based on player skill, equip, training options, etc.. So they are not official and may not represent the true nature and/or potential ability of class X. Please don’t flame me <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> lol</P></FONT> <P>Wards will account for mitigation! :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Shamans rejoice <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>Cleric and Shaman heals will generate agro for the healer instead of the target (druids already work this way).  We will need to watch aggro on them very closely until they have time to learn to manage heal agro.  Basically, if you can keep aggro off a druid, you are fine, if you can't, you are going to have troubles.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Hmm, didnt know this, wondered why my Warden was always running for his life on hard fights that required lots of healing.  Puts us on par with other healers now <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>Talked to Dymus for a long while about raids, he has some cool ideas, and wants to implement more involved raid content, as well as progressive content.  Expect to see several hour raids and multi day raids again, although probably not very soon.  Also, he is looking to add raid content that will require crafters, like the way you needed an alchemist for the plague event.</P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Yea... <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thanks for the post!</P> <P>Groll lvl 45 Gard <FONT color=#ff0000>/emote Feels like a nerf is coming <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR>Sithero lvl 44 Warden<FONT color=#ff0000> /emote I do aggro with my heals? <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR>Nibblar lvl 35 Neco <FONT color=#ff0000>/emote Necros rule <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT><BR>Epicurus lvl 32 Inquisitor <FONT color=#ff0000>/emote Huh?</FONT><BR>Erui lvl 29 Ranger <FONT color=#ff0000>/emote I want some love too!</FONT><BR></P></DIV><p>Message Edited by Nibblar on <span class=date_text>06-15-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:25 AM</span>

[SmakenDah]

<span><blockquote><hr><div><blockquote><hr> Oakwood wrote:<p>About the intervene line, he was asked about it, the official answer is that intervene type spells are to be used in emergencies when you need to take a hit for someone, not to be kept up all the time, and you have to pay a price for the ability to take the damage off someone else.  I am pretty sure he has no idea why that doesn't work, but there wasn't time to try to go into greater detail on it (one hour panel, lots of questions)</p><font color="#ff0000"><font color="#ff0000" size="3"></font></font></blockquote></div><hr></blockquote><font color="#ff6600" face="Verdana" size="2"><font color="#ff9900">If this was the case, they need to be instant cast and even then, I'm not sure I'd use them all too often even if they were. They need to be looked at further unless the adjustments per tier will make the difference. There are only a few reasons to currently use these abilities; help a fellow tank out when he get's low, bail out someone who generated too much agro or because we screwed up on generating agro (i.e. feel asleep at the keyboard). Basically, we use this skill when someone screws up so if you're in a group where little to no screw ups happen you don't really get to use this ability. </font></font></span><div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>In regards to AE taunts if the only ones that work on epic mobs are grey (other than taunting assault but that can miss) are protect and such being changed so they do work on epic mobs (maybe with the excepttion of the stifle effect)? I didn't read the whole thread but I am curious.</DIV>

[SmakenDah]

<div></div><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">Yes:</font> "-PROTECTION WILL AFFECT RAID CONTENT.  All skills will work on any mob actually... the 2ndary effects will just not work." - Noah "Another nice thing is this new stacking will allow us to use abilities with stun/stifle against any mob.  If the mob is immune to stifle, the rest of the skill will still work (taunt for example) just the stifle part will be ignored." - Ogruk <font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">This was something I /bugged and /feedbacked about on my very first Cauldron Hollow raid where I discovered my new AE taunt wouldn't work but my low level one would, so I am happy to see this. </font><div></div><p>Message Edited by SmakenDahed on <span class=date_text>06-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:43 AM</span>

[Xebed]

lots of interesting info, thank ye kindly for taking the time to post it Noah. <div></div>

[Napolle]

protect on raids... nice! <div></div>

[Napolle]

no more shouting cry master now =( <div></div>