Is it better to be MT or let a Zerker be the main?

[Noctismort]

<DIV>I have issues keeping agro period from zerkers and high DPS monks types. In a raid situation what tank would better. Ive noticed if I stack my defensive buffs on the zerker in my guild he can take allot more damage, but if I drop them he starts to drop. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue here is if Im main tank is a constant struggle to maintain agro with the zerker going crazy and the monks doing 1k of damage in  few hits. Any suggestions would be great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is @ level 50 and my gear is mostly moderate to good stuff, No fabled yet though.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Noctismortis on <span class=date_text>06-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:51 AM</span>

[Vulking]

<P>Couple of questions first, they may be obvious, but for others reading bear with me, </P> <P>First, are you using all your taunts even the gray ones?  I know i do.  At level 50 you should have 6 total taunts that are not on the same timer and one that is on the same timer but is for epic encounters that you want to keep using. </P> <P>Second, what level are these?  Are they at least Adept I?  Try and upgrade all your taunts to at least Adept I if you can,  Even at level 50 I have a few that are not yet upgraded to Adept III, (in fact i got 3 that are still Adept I).</P> <P>Third, you still need to do some damage, hit the mob with your high damage attacks when you get a chance.</P> <P>And finally,  if they are still ripping aggro from you, and i call it ripping cuz thats what they are doing, its not your fault.  They need to learn to better manage their damage.  Its not a race to see who can outdamage who.  If you all die because you've lost control of the mob it doesn't really matter who got in the most hits.</P> <P>I'm sure others will have comments on this and can expand, clarify on what ive said.</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><EM>Crexus</EM></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><EM> 50Guard</EM></STRONG></P> <P><STRONG><EM>Crushbone</EM></STRONG></P>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Hammarus wrote: <p>And finally,  if they are still ripping aggro from you, and i call it ripping cuz thats what they are doing, its not your fault.  They need to learn to better manage their damage.  Its not a race to see who can outdamage who.  If you all die because you've lost control of the mob it doesn't really matter who got in the most hits.</p><hr></blockquote> QFE With my serk I can pull agro from a MT 4 levels up with no effort at all.. and I -know- he knows how to play his class.  The serk has to tone his stuff down at the start, and know what he has on his toolbar.. several of the attacks I have have a nice little line about how much hate they have associated with them... so doing damage gives me some hate, and the hate associated with the CA makes it worse..  put that with our buffs and bam.. almost as bad as a druid... If your serk is going hellbent for leather from the outset and not scaling up as you build hate, then he needs to rethink his strategies..  I am all for Serkers having MT position, but having great agro control doesn't mean we are always the best choice.. that depends on player skill, group/raid configuration, experience, etc.. And quite honestly if you are doing -your- job at properly taunting, and he is still pulling agro from you I would have to question his player skills and be leary about wanting to make him MT just due to agro management.. we all get into situations where we are not the MT and we all need to know our place in that situation... and just like my swashbuckler and my inquisitor, I scale back my output until the tank gets a grip on it...because if I pull agro and we get a group wipe as a result it is MY fault and not the MTs... One of the biggest things I did was go out and make a bunch of alts crossing the spectrum of archetypes/class/etc and it is letting me see stuff from different angles and I can play my serker as mt (or offtank) and my inq a lot better now due to that exposure to the other side of the fence... maybe your serker needs to try that.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Poochymama]

Zerker here. I say you need to stay main tank. Guardians are more fit for that position than zerkers. What i think you should do is use all of those taunts that Hammarus mentioned and make sure that that are upgraded. Try to get as many as possible at adept III. As for the Zerker, I say put him in the MT group and make him an offtank. Zerker's are probobly the best offtanks in the game. If he is that good at pulling aggro without taunting he will be able to pull agro off any casters or healers that gain aggro in a heartbeat using his taunts, until you can gain aggro back from him. So to answer your question I think you should remain the MT and let the Zerker be offtank.LOUD NOISES!!!!

[Friskc]

<P>Tell your zerker to stop useing skills like promise of violence and watch casting anarchy ..... zerker should never take aggro from gaurd when you know your zerk </P> <P>Ans yea, you tank thats your job ...... once ya get over aggro issues gaurdian own all in raid world, we are usually always in same group as you guys in raid, yea we can tank like mad man with your buffs without ... well we definently get hit harder </P> <P>Zerkin </P> <p>Message Edited by Friskcin on <span class=date_text>06-13-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:08 PM</span>

[TunaBoo]

Right now, guards tank much better then a buffed zerg and hold aggro just fine. Zerg aggro is great on ++., but not anything special on +++ and die much faster. <div></div>

[ArcisFort]

<DIV>I really dont have a problem holding aggro.  I have adept 3 taunts ( all of them) or I play with people that know how to control their aggro......</DIV>

[Pin StNeedl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Noctismortis wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have issues keeping agro period from zerkers and high DPS monks types. In a raid situation what tank would better. Ive noticed if I stack my defensive buffs on the zerker in my guild he can take allot more damage, but if I drop them he starts to drop. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>Zerks have very little by way of 'clean damage' - i.e. almost everything on my zerk's bar has extra aggro (taunts, stuns, debuffs, interrupts, etc, etc). Depending on how well a particular Guardian can gain aggro, I might only be able to keep up my group buffs (HP, Haste, etc) and autoswing, or I might be able to go all-out - that just depends on the experience of the Guard.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>As for letting the Zerk tank - I have no problem being a raid MT with my Zerk, with or without a Guardian's buffs. Without the Guardian's buffs my defense will be over 300 (before clickies) and all should be well. The problem comes when I'm not expecting to be MT, or if the Guard drops his buffs unexpectedly, because I wouldn't have my own defense buffs up (as they reduce attack-skill, or attack-speed) and it takes some seconds to cast them and recover.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The issue here is if Im main tank is a constant struggle to maintain agro with the zerker going crazy and the monks doing 1k of damage in  few hits. Any suggestions would be great.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#66ff00>My suggestion is to work with the high DPS on some of the easier raids so they know how far they can push their damage, how quickly they can ramp it up, and you gain practice at holding aggro solidly.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This is @ level 50 and my gear is mostly moderate to good stuff, No fabled yet though.<BR></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

[Aaliamz]

So, can anyone actually give a specific reason why a zerker, with a guardian in his group (for all +HP  and +DEF buffs) and similiar gear would be ANY different as a MT that the Guardian? I cannot see why there would be any difference at all. <div></div>

[eqtaka]

<P>There are some self buffs the Guardian get that greatly increase defense.  All the fighter types get these buffs that trade offensive for defensive, but the Guardian is the only one who gives up offensive to "greatly" increase defense.</P> <P>I also believe it's more then the buffs.  I think the internal numbers, the numbers you don't see, make a difference.  I have both a Zerker and Guardian, btw.  Ive been going to that exact same places with the exact same equipment, at times, to test the differences. </P> <P>In terms of agro management,  Like the Warrior in EQ1, the Guardians ability to hold agro is less then the other fighter types.  In EQ1 Paladins were king for grabbing agro with their stun line and keeping it, unchallenged.  A Ranger with snare and Immolate could steal agro from a Warrior quite easily.  It's always been this way since EQ1 and nothings changed, IMHO, here.  Guradians are not bad at holding agro.  In fact, I rarely loose agro, but the other fighter types spend less power doing so with greater effect.  </P> <P>If another fighter type wants agro,  A few skills, like Anarchy for the Zerker, will take it.  In my experiance it's a harder to win Raids with this happening.  Maxing your DPS potential without stealing agro has always been one of the puzzle pieces for winning Raids. </P>

[Pnaxx]

<P>As a Lowley 38-39 Zerker, I am just realizing something this very minute thatI have been doing wrong. I found out yesterday that one of my favorite strikes....Raging Strike....has a taunt on it....which i was unaware of. I dont think that the explanation on the screen says it taunts some...but even if it did say it, i was unaware it did and I am always pulling agro off Tanks,,,,if im not it, many lvls higher than me. So, I am guilty of this and now i see that i can keep that strike out of the fight and that will help too.</P> <P>Also, make sure that you let the group know to let you hold agro for around 5 sec b4 they all start spamming atrs and spells. Make sure they wait til they see the mab turn red and let you hold aftre that til they spam. Also, hitting your mob is key in holding agro, so dont forsake that...it really makes a difference. There are times ive lost it, and to get it back, i need to hit the mob with 4-5 blows and retaunt to get it back.</P> <P>Good luck.</P>

[Shizzirri]

Thats a zerker's job to constantly steal aggro from the MT driving us nuts, berserk is nice as hell though I will say that.  I spam like 5 taunts (ad3/M1) and ya I still lose it

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Pnaxx wrote:<p>As a Lowley 38-39 Zerker, I am just realizing something this very minute thatI have been doing wrong. I found out yesterday that one of my favorite strikes....Raging Strike....has a taunt on it....which i was unaware of. I dont think that the explanation on the screen says it taunts some...but even if it did say it, i was unaware it did and I am always pulling agro off Tanks,,,,if im not it, many lvls higher than me. So, I am guilty of this and now i see that i can keep that strike out of the fight and that will help too.</p> <p>Also, make sure that you let the group know to let you hold agro for around 5 sec b4 they all start spamming atrs and spells. Make sure they wait til they see the mab turn red and let you hold aftre that til they spam. Also, hitting your mob is key in holding agro, so dont forsake that...it really makes a difference. There are times ive lost it, and to get it back, i need to hit the mob with 4-5 blows and retaunt to get it back.</p><hr></blockquote> There are 3 or 4 that have hate attached on my toolbar at level 34.. you have to read the description... but with that caveat... I can successfully use all my buffs and attacks including the hate included ones if I 1) manage my own agro by scaling up my high hate stuff  and 2) the MT is doing his job and taunting properly... No I cannot spam all my attacks I have to work up to the good stuff.. .but you -can- use them and you -can- avoid agro..  you just have to pay better attention..</span><div></div>

[Lyrus]

Try having your zerker in the MT group use vehemence on you. Also Noah's suggested before use Desperate rush and hold the line for some hasted threat to augment what you're putting out already. From my experience, it works really well. <div></div>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>not sure what ya folks are saying are ya saying zerks can steal agroe from a guardian wihtout taunting? or wiht taunting cause i for one had competitions wiht zerkers holding agroe with them even taunting the mob and they would not gain agroe of me till i was either dead or oop.</P> <P>oop hardly ever happens with my power potions + manastone + regen items! </P> <P>then death well it wipes the hate sheat clean and even then in a raid in the CL instance i died zerker took agroe and after i got healed and had my buffs back up (which create hate offcourse) i was able to regain agroe it took some time cause i was low on power but i could get it back. </P> <P>And dont ask about the lvl taunts the zerker had he was all hardcore upgraded as was I. I will give yall this tho its not easy holding it off them but it is doable. Buff taunt use yer powerdrains eventhough they are really small it does create hate also ferocious charge which is my fav attack (not sure if the stifle works on epic yet) but it helps a lot.</P> <P>Dont neglect on Ho's either getting heroes armor is great for defense but the xtra hate a reg ho gives is a godsend! </P> <P>Ok now if ya do all this already and still loose agroe</P> <P>ill have some tips that can make it easier!</P> <P>1. ask zerker to lay off for about 20 secs in the fight and let him stay away from anarchy and all those hate cause buffs they are EVIL!</P> <P>2. get yer zerker in MT group (your group) and make him focus on setting up your HO's to save you power on a raid and possibly heroes armor. This will give him less time to do damage and help the mob focus more on you! </P> <P>3. If he does get agroe use yer interupts shield bash etc to buy some time to get agroe back cause if the zerker is smart he wont use specials anymore and possibly refrain from melee at all. so this way he wil take less damage and you can put some taunts in!</P> <P>If all this doesnt help then i dont know what the problem is. Oh and btw i got all my taunts adept 3 or master! even some attacks are upgraded that might help a lot our 30 sec def buff causes hate too</P> <P>well take care have a good time trying to fight off those zerkers </P> <P>Shades 50 kerran guardian Lucandlere</P> <P>Cloaked 35 Gnome Defiler Lucandlere</P> <P>Breezy 34 Dark elf coercer lucandlere</P> <P> </P> <P>PS: tuna keep posting man i learned a great deal form ya! even tho not on same server</P>