Curious - Can a Gaurdian If right armour do damage as good as a Zerker ..

[Shiks]

<DIV>just curious thats all, i mean it might be poss with right armour or maybe not, dont dis if this is silly cos like i say i'm just asking <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>many thanks in response <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[OgApostrap]

Uh... no? They still miss all the haste and dps increases... and uh... they are still guardians..

[SirDra]

<DIV>yes, you dont even need to tweak gear.</DIV>

[Noah]

Like most of the "raid" group set ups... it is all about what buffs you get. 

[Huna]

Are you guys saying that a "Maxed Out" guardian can equal a "Maxed Out" berserker for dps?  I'm not talking about a non buffed berserker against a fully buffed guardian.  What I mean is if a berserker is in a dps group and they go all out for dps (dps buffs from other members, etc..) and a guardian is in a dps group going all out for dps would the guardian dps be as high as the berserker?  The reason I ask is that I rarely see people complain that guardian dps is too high, but you see people complaining that berserker dps is too high a decent amount.  So, if a guardian can do the same maxed out dps, I would assume that high level guardians would know this, and they would be on raids in dps groups occasionally.  If your saying that a raid buffed guardian can equal a non raid buffed berserker, then that's not really a fair comparison, just trying to see if we are comparing apples to apples? <div></div>

[Pin StNeedl]

<P>Put a Berserker and a Guardian in the same group with the same buffs and the same equipment, both in damage roles, and they'll <STRONG>parse</STRONG> at <STRONG>very</STRONG> similar DPS. The reason for this is most of a Berserker's damage-increasing buffs (Tides of War, Destructive Rage, Anarchy, etc...) are all group buffs so both gain the benefits.</P> <P>On the other hand... As almost all that DPS is gained through buffs (strength, haste, proc) from other members of the group, it might be more honest to attribute the damage to the buffers as damage-by-proxy... In which case, the Bard, Fury and Berserker would show their worth.</P>

[ugl]

<P>A guardian can dish out similer damage as a zerker IF he has the same buff classes in his group, including a zerker...</P> <P>A zerker can tank similer to a guardian, if he has the same buff classes in his group, including a guardian.</P> <P> </P> <P>But, seperate the two, and the guardian is hands down the better tank and the zerker is hands down the better DPS.   </P> <P> </P> <P>It is all about group buffs.</P>

[Huna]

<span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote:<p>A guardian can dish out similer damage as a zerker IF he has the same buff classes in his group, including a zerker...</p> <p>A zerker can tank similer to a guardian, if he has the same buff classes in his group, including a guardian.</p> <p>But, seperate the two, and the guardian is hands down the better tank and the zerker is hands down the better DPS.   </p> <p>It is all about group buffs.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> My thoughts exactly, so why do you ever hear guardians say that they can't dps?   I've seen plenty of posts about guardians saying that they can't put out dps anywhere near a berserker, is it just that they don't know any better? or don't get the opportunity to find out? or just simply don't try it?</span><div></div>

[ugl]

<DIV>That would be arguments where someone claims a guardian can dish out zerker DPS, but they do not mention that this would have to include zerker group buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same as guardians claiming zerkers can tank just as well, but fail to include this would require guardian group buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A guardian without a zerker CANNOT do zerker DPS, same as a zerker CANNOT tank like a guardian without guardian buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the time people leave out half of the equation to try and support their arguments.   If someone is looking to get guardians nerfed, they will say "guardians can do the same damage as a zerker."  But, they fail to mention that a zerker would have to be in the group, and that the zerker IS the reason for the guardians high damage output.   Same if you reverse the argument, and claim that a zerker can tank like a guardian and put out way more damage.   Your conveiently leaving out that the zerker has to have guardian buffs to tank like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See what I mean?   It is using  half truths to support your arguments.     Zerkers and Guards are two different animals, that compliment each other very well.   But one without the other loses the defense or DPS that only the other can provide.</DIV>

[Huna]

<span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote:<div>That would be arguments where someone claims a guardian can dish out zerker DPS, but they do not mention that this would have to include zerker group buffs.</div> <div> </div> <div>Same as guardians claiming zerkers can tank just as well, but fail to include this would require guardian group buffs.</div> <div> </div> <div>A guardian without a zerker CANNOT do zerker DPS, same as a zerker CANNOT tank like a guardian without guardian buffs.</div> <div> </div> <div>Most of the time people leave out half of the equation to try and support their arguments.   If someone is looking to get guardians nerfed, they will say "guardians can do the same damage as a zerker."  But, they fail to mention that a zerker would have to be in the group, and that the zerker IS the reason for the guardians high damage output.   Same if you reverse the argument, and claim that a zerker can tank like a guardian and put out way more damage.   Your conveiently leaving out that the zerker has to have guardian buffs to tank like that.</div> <div> </div> <div>See what I mean?   It is using  half truths to support your arguments.     Zerkers and Guards are two different animals, that compliment each other very well.   But one without the other loses the defense or DPS that only the other can provide.</div><hr></blockquote> Exactly the response I was looking for, too bad there are so many people that ignore this and put out false info on basically all of the classes in the game.</span><div></div>

[sean]

<DIV>I have just started recently playing a guardian, but it, much like the other classes serve a function.  It has been my experience so far that many tank types want to do the same thing...tank well and have high DPS.  While this might be preferrable to some, the guardian really isnt set up to be counted on for the primary, secondary, or really any level of DPS in my mind.  Sure, we can add in our damage here and there, and any damage that can be dished out on a mob is good damage, but the way I play is from a persepctive of holding aggro.  I view my job as gaining the hate of a given mob, and doing my best to keep it throughout the encounter, while the rest of the party fills in the damage portion of the equation.  Would I like to hit hard and consistently be on top of the DPS parse...sure.  But given the skill set of the guardian, that really isnt a very realistic view to have.  If I pull a mob, and can maintain aggro, and nobody dies in the encounter, I feel I have lived up to my end of the bargain and have contributed my skills to the group successfully.  With skills like Entrench and Dig In, i'm basically taking myself out of the damage comeptition by the very nature of the skills, and most other powers are geared towards gaining hate and protecting others from harm by taking their damage for them.  Sure, group buffs can make guardians looking to dish out the pain more successful, but really, if I were in a group where the guardian was trying to be on top of the damage leaderboard every encounter, I think i'd be a little concerned for my safety as another party member.  The problem really isnt that guardians stink at damage (which they really kind of do comparatively 8-)  ), it's that some people think they, and other tank types, should match up pound for pound in every category.  If that were true, there wouldnt be a need for differing subclasses, we'd all be 'THE fighter, or THE healer, etc, and there would be four classes in the game instead of the number there are now.  They both shine in what they were built to do, it's really just a different play style, and the willingness for players to accept one classes limitations in one area, for it's bonuses in another.</DIV>

[Drulak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sean25 wrote:<BR> <DIV>I have just started recently playing a guardian, but it, much like the other classes serve a function.  It has been my experience so far that many tank types want to do the same thing...tank well and have high DPS.  While this might be preferrable to some, the guardian really isnt set up to be counted on for the primary, secondary, or really any level of DPS in my mind.  Sure, we can add in our damage here and there, and any damage that can be dished out on a mob is good damage, but the way I play is from a persepctive of holding aggro.  I view my job as gaining the hate of a given mob, and doing my best to keep it throughout the encounter, while the rest of the party fills in the damage portion of the equation.  Would I like to hit hard and consistently be on top of the DPS parse...sure.  But given the skill set of the guardian, that really isnt a very realistic view to have.  If I pull a mob, and can maintain aggro, and nobody dies in the encounter, I feel I have lived up to my end of the bargain and have contributed my skills to the group successfully.  With skills like Entrench and Dig In, i'm basically taking myself out of the damage comeptition by the very nature of the skills, and most other powers are geared towards gaining hate and protecting others from harm by taking their damage for them.  Sure, group buffs can make guardians looking to dish out the pain more successful, but really, if I were in a group where the guardian was trying to be on top of the damage leaderboard every encounter, I think i'd be a little concerned for my safety as another party member.  The problem really isnt that guardians stink at damage (which they really kind of do comparatively 8-)  ), it's that some people think they, and other tank types, should match up pound for pound in every category.  If that were true, there wouldnt be a need for differing subclasses, we'd all be 'THE fighter, or THE healer, etc, and there would be four classes in the game instead of the number there are now.  They both shine in what they were built to do, it's really just a different play style, and the willingness for players to accept one classes limitations in one area, for it's bonuses in another.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thats True sean25 , BUT ONLY if you are the MT.  if you are in a grp with another guardian who is MT and did not bother about DPS , why are you in that group. If you are on a raid and a 50th Guard is the MT and you are in grp 2 , WHY wouldn't your only concern be DPS - do you think that second grp guard will do any aggro skills at all. I hope not or he is in trouble (and so are his group mates).</P> <P>It is horses for courses , when MT no need for DPS , when an extra - of course guardians want to do as much DPS as possible and all my fellow colleagues above are saying is that with a zerker in grp - they will do much better DPS  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[sean]

Well, now we get into group makeups, and stragegy, which is what I didnt think the original post was about.  It sounded like the original question was that given the proper twinking, could a guardian basically DPS pound for pound with a zerker, and I was just relaying my views on why I wouldnt really worry about out DPSing another class that is built for DPS.  I havent raided very often, and when I have, it was with my 46 Warden, so that right there tells ya I wasnt in a DPS war <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, but still..I wouldnt put two guardians in the same group in a raid, unless it was absolutely necessary, and then I wouldnt really expect him to all of a sudden turn it up a notch to massive DPS.  Maybe Guardians can, im only 36 at the moment, and travel consistently with a group of 3 others, so maybe my views are skewed, im not above admitting that, but i've just never found a reason yet why I would devote my somewhat limited resources on improving my DPS as opposed to my other skills.  Im not looking at the skills right now, but at present, I think I have true strike, crush, and ruin as my big damage shots...the others are stuns and interrupts, and medium DoTs.  Maybe im missing a whole other aspect to the game by limiting my playing partners, but when the other skills are taunting blows, aoe aggro shots, and protection skills, it just doesnt sound like SOE had them in mind for being at the top of a parse.  I personally think if you want a higher damage tank, just reroll you up one that was built for it, instead of trying to find the perfect gear/party to 'equal out' another class.  Just my humble opinion. 

[Huna]

I don't think it's so much about people wanting a high dps tank all the time, but they and all other people need to know that it's ok to have another guardian or whatever duplicate class in a group because they have a secondary function that they can perform ok.  For example, I group with a buddy a decent amount, and he's a guardian.  I'm a berserker and I'm normally 4 levels maybe more higher than him, so when we group it's nice to know that he understands he can try and maximize his dps.  I don't like to exclude people from groups, because I would hate to be excluded myself.  So if I already have 2 guardians in a group, I'll take another one, but he better be at least trying to dps, and not just sitting there doing nothing since he isn't the main tank.  I'm not saying replace a dps class with a guardian, but most of the time when I get a pickup group, it isn't exactly an optimal setup, so if everyone knows how to perform a secondary role, then everyone will be better off in the less than optimal group situations. <div></div>

[Friskc]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <P>Put a Berserker and a Guardian in the same group with the same buffs and the same equipment, both in damage roles, and they'll <STRONG>parse</STRONG> at <STRONG>very</STRONG> similar DPS. The reason for this is most of a Berserker's damage-increasing buffs (Tides of War, Destructive Rage, Anarchy, etc...) are all group buffs so both gain the benefits.</P> <P>On the other hand... As almost all that DPS is gained through buffs (strength, haste, proc) from other members of the group, it might be more honest to attribute the damage to the buffers as damage-by-proxy... In which case, the Bard, Fury and Berserker would show their worth.</P> <HR> <P>Very true, with us in the same group.. basically they can do around same dps as us seeing all our haste/procable buffs are group wide just as a gaurds gives defense to the group (zerker then has same defense as gaurd) plus we can cast  the actuall skill berserk on a gaurdian which will make him go berserk like us causeing lots of hate and dps! i can vouch for sir drake seeing i have raided in same group as him for instance couple nights ago ......... seeing i was curious i casted berserk on sir drake while he was MA,ing and put up all my master 1 haste buff's and as i thought rofl drakem did 300 + dps every fight (this is raiding dps as well lol)  ........... so to the moral of the story yeaaa gaurdians can do dps !!!</P> <P>Zerkin</P> <P>Message Edited by Friskcin on <SPAN class=date_text>06-08-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:36 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Friskcin on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:46 AM</span>

[Friskc]

<DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV>That would be arguments where someone claims a guardian can dish out zerker DPS, but they do not mention that this would have to include zerker group buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Same as guardians claiming zerkers can tank just as well, but fail to include this would require guardian group buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A guardian without a zerker CANNOT do zerker DPS, same as a zerker CANNOT tank like a guardian without guardian buffs.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most of the time people leave out half of the equation to try and support their arguments.   If someone is looking to get guardians nerfed, they will say "guardians can do the same damage as a zerker."  But, they fail to mention that a zerker would have to be in the group, and that the zerker IS the reason for the guardians high damage output.   Same if you reverse the argument, and claim that a zerker can tank like a guardian and put out way more damage.   Your conveiently leaving out that the zerker has to have guardian buffs to tank like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>See what I mean?   It is using  half truths to support your arguments.     Zerkers and Guards are two different animals, that compliment each other very well.   But one without the other loses the defense or DPS that only the other can provide. <HR> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>hehe VERY VERY True Ive been saying  this FOREVER!! a Gaurdian and Zerker in the same group PWN all its awesome i mean i love having 300+ defense in a raid with a gaurdian ..... can tank like a mad man its awesome!!! but as a zerker i have found out that with a gaurdian/zerker in the same group it just makes things more simple!!! HP/AGGRO/DPS/TANKING ........ why would you not do this lol !!! </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkin </DIV><p>Message Edited by Friskcin on <span class=date_text>06-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:45 AM</span>