Maybe i play badly... but am i the only one or am i wrong?

[Rass]

<div></div><div></div>I am not a guardian of level 46. I don't have any spell at Adept III right now, as i am focusing on my gear for level 50, then i will max out the spells i need to Adept 3. All my spells up to my level are Adept I. (Exception made of a few sub 20 and sub 30 spells/skills that are focused on attack rather than taunt) You can check my profile here http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterid=216143205 I am having problem keeping aggro on big encounters that has to be in combat for a long time... I am using only my taunt spells, and 30 sec buffs to keep aggro... but most of the time, i lose aggro to a Berserker or Paladin when i am close to be out of power, or sometimes, i lose it on a Warlock or Wizard huge nuke (1500+ dmg) I am wondering, should i stop bothering on my gear (i don't even have ebon cluster armor yet, and wish i could) and focus on upgrading some spells to adept 3, or what? On a ^^^ X2, X3 or X4... what should i do to ensure i keep aggro? Aren't Guardian meant to be the main tanks, or should we let a Berserker or Paladin tank? Am i doing something wrong or is other raid members doing something wrong? <div></div><p>Message Edited by Rassal on <span class="date_text">05-16-2005</span> <span class="time_text">01:18 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by Rassal on <span class=date_text>05-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:19 PM</span>

[Napolle]

<div></div>sometimes people who are new to raiding dont know how to manage their aggro. but use Hold the line,vengeful strike, taunting blow,shouting cry,  taunting assault, deafen,slates invig thrust (if you got it),taunting challenge, etc use all your taunts...even the grey out ones (that arent on same timers as higher lvl ones) if your grping with these players and look at their mp and see they are burnign mp fast off the start talk to them after and let them know to let you get and maintain aggro before they unload- also for scouts- i was in a raid and scout kept grabbing aggro- he was using skills from the start and chainign them always lom.. and was not using his evade skill list.. let ppl know and hopefully if you use those aggro tools above you will hold aggro fine.. good luck <div></div><p>Message Edited by Napolleon on <span class=date_text>05-16-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:57 PM</span>

[Napolle]

and yes eventually youll want to upgrade your taunts to adept3 and later on commanding presence and call of protection. <div></div>

[Rass]

Well, i am using all those spells, and only those when i am tanking a raid encounter. The problem is really that i think they are mashing their keyboard with skills/spells until they are lom... or doing HO that has taunt and grab the aggro... Even, some of those think guardian's aren't best at keeping aggro... i keep telling them they just mash all buttons until they are LOM and that they dunno how to play their class in a raid, and keep telling me i am wrong... well, i guess they may be wrong, but might be thick headed... i will log next raid and check them out, and issue them warnings... <div></div>

[Arsen]

This touches on something that I have been wondering about actually.  If you are a non-MT fighter on a raid, particularly when you are not in the main group, are you basically excluded from participating in HOs?  There are a few you can do, but you obviously don't want to be taunting or buffing.  Unless you can get a scout that understands that and flips away from those HOs, it is tough to really do much. To the OP - the class I loose aggro to the most is probably Beserker, they need to be very careful about pulling aggro over a long fight.  Easiest thing to do is to remind everyone to try to keep their power about even with the monsters health and that it is a team effort to maintain aggro during an encounter.  If the MT goes OOP, your chances of a successful fight drop dramatically. <div></div>

[Shizzirri]

When I'm not MT on a raid I'll partake in the HO's that don't involve taunts other than that I'll complete them/advance them whatever.

[Aren]

If I happen to not be tanking, I'll complete HO's with my level 3 taunt, it has never pulled aggro

[Mentin]

<P>The way the game is designed it is meant to be a balance between the MT taunts and the offensive hate-genereation. The MT is not supposed to be able to keep aggro under all conditions, it is the responsibility of the offensive classes to keep  their aggro below the level established by the MT.</P> <P>Too many offensive classes has the view that MT should be able to keep aggro off them regardless what they do. That is positively wrong. They need to manage their own aggro level, that is the challenge of playing an offensive class.</P> <P>Of course the higher aggro level the tank can make, the more dps can the offensive people dish out, so tauntage is very important. But blaming lost aggro on the MT exclusively is wrong.</P> <P> </P>

[Old_Ha]

<DIV>use all your taunting attacks. they are on seperate timers.  Theres also one aoe taunt that works on raid mobs..forget the name.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>another thing is, the raid group should hold attacks every 10% or 15% so you can get alot more hate.  </DIV>

[Hak]

<P>Shouting Cry is the AoE taunt that works on epic mobs.  Get that to ADT3 as soon as you can afford (or harvest and make). It increases threat by 337 at 50.   Not huge, but in a raid every bit counts.</P> <P>All of the comments above are the way to go keeping aggro.  There are plenty of classes out there that can take aggro if they want to.  Its a matter of aggro control that people figure out as they get used to playing together.</P> <P> </P> <P>Hakra</P> <P>50 Guardian of Permafrost</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Nazo]

Swashies have an especially mean trick of an attack that puts them +1 in hate list I think. If you got Swashies in your raid form up ask them :smileyvery-happy:

[Rass]

well, the problem i had wasn't with swashies, but with zerkers... In fact, the whole raid we had was a small 2 group raid with 12 comrades in it... we had 2 zerkers, and both of them kept stealing aggro all the time, well, until they were dead... the healers gave up on healing them as they were wasting mana on them, and once they were dead, i kept all agro until mob was dead... Also... i am starting to upgrade my skills to adept III and master I... i got a hand on a rough ruby and wonder on what i should spend it 1st. I am 46.5 guardian right now... I am thinking of the AE taunt we have that works on epic mobs x2 and more (shouting cry if i remember well) if i can, or whatever a rough ruby can get me. Any advise? <div></div>

[Xlap]

well, a paladin with a warlock in the group is pretty easy to explain away. they probably cast redemption on the warlock, giving them 32% (i think that's adept1) of all tha ggro the warlock gets. if he's keeping his buffs up he's also periodically sucking away 5% of the entire groups aggro. i know my 34 paladin pulled aggro off a 41 berserker doing this. i put redemption on him, spammed buffs and used my damage abilities, but it could be done (btw, said that because i didnt think it was possible when i started to try lol)

[Xlap]

oh ya, if you have one person constantly getting aggro (who isnt the paladin) have the paladin cast redemption on that person. it will spread the aggro out, keeping too much of it from stacking on one person

[Rorrak]

<DIV>A ruby will get you a Tier V skill Adept III'd, Shouting Cry is Tier III, you'll need a jasper or a palladium to get that one made. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want to cut your aggro problems down suggest that people a) don't engage the mob until you've established initial aggro and called for an assist and b) keep their power usage in line with the mob's health.  Make a rule that if a non-healer grabs aggro they don't get healed.  After a few deaths they'll learn that aggro management is a group activity.  Make sure they're examining all their skills and not using them if they say that they add X hate.  And of course don't allow them to taunt or cast short duration buffs during combat. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you're cycling your taunts/taunting attacks, using commanding presence when it comes up, using hold the line, and getting enough power fed to you via an enchanter/manastone/illusionist stones/whatever to facilitate all that, then you're doing what you can to hold aggro.  At that point it's a matter of group discipline/practice to get it right.  Good luck. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>- Rorrak</DIV>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Rassal wrote:well, the problem i had wasn't with swashies, but with zerkers... In fact, the whole raid we had was a small 2 group raid with 12 comrades in it... we had 2 zerkers, and both of them kept stealing aggro all the time, well, until they were dead... the healers gave up on healing them as they were wasting mana on them, and once they were dead, i kept all agro until mob was dead... <hr></blockquote> When I had a guardian 5 levels above my serk (him 37ish me 32ish) it was fiendishly hard to NOT steal agro from him...  My swashy pulls agro yes, but not insane amouts like serk does.  Your berserkers -have- to know their skills.. a large part of the attacks I have in the low 30s have a hate componant in them and state that in their descriptions... I have had to isolate hate and non-hate combat arts in their own groups in case I am not MT... so that I dont use the agro ones til the MT has established agro...  the berserkers have to either turn off their serk inducing buffs/stances or be very careful at first... For the first hour or so in my first session with that guardian I would pull agro 50-60% of the time.... after working at it though I was able to learn how to not go into gear at first and then work my way up... so that after a couple hours I had learned how to pace myself... and was able to work myself up to using all my hate inducing damage dealing stuff without fear of pulling agro... imho the biggest burden is on the serk to know how his stuff generates the agro and scale back just as any other high agro class (druids, warlocks, scouts, etc) and play the team game... its not about who can do the most damage, its taking the stuff down efficiently... </span><div></div>

[DearthofWeal]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ariven wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Rassal wrote:well, the problem i had wasn't with swashies, but with zerkers... In fact, the whole raid we had was a small 2 group raid with 12 comrades in it... we had 2 zerkers, and both of them kept stealing aggro all the time, well, until they were dead... the healers gave up on healing them as they were wasting mana on them, and once they were dead, i kept all agro until mob was dead... <hr></blockquote> When I had a guardian 5 levels above my serk (him 37ish me 32ish) it was fiendishly hard to NOT steal agro from him...  My swashy pulls agro yes, but not insane amouts like serk does.  Your berserkers -have- to know their skills.. a large part of the attacks I have in the low 30s have a hate componant in them and state that in their descriptions... I have had to isolate hate and non-hate combat arts in their own groups in case I am not MT... so that I dont use the agro ones til the MT has established agro...  the berserkers have to either turn off their serk inducing buffs/stances or be very careful at first... For the first hour or so in my first session with that guardian I would pull agro 50-60% of the time.... after working at it though I was able to learn how to not go into gear at first and then work my way up... so that after a couple hours I had learned how to pace myself... and was able to work myself up to using all my hate inducing damage dealing stuff without fear of pulling agro... imho the biggest burden is on the serk to know how his stuff generates the agro and scale back just as any other high agro class (druids, warlocks, scouts, etc) and play the team game... its not about who can do the most damage, its taking the stuff down efficiently... </span><div></div><hr></blockquote> Very much in agreement here.  AKAIK, a zerker can generate FAR AND AWAY the most aggro of any class on a consistent basis with equal lvl skills (adept3 to adept3) and can be a few lvls lower than the guardian when doing this. Spam for Spam, Zerker for the aggro-win...  Now if only they had all the defense buffs a guardian had.. (would, basically, make them god... but hey)</span><div></div>

[Axhine]

<DIV>I don't have much trouble holding aggro but I do feel it needs a bit of tweeking because using HTL, spaming tuants, etc and having all adepts 3's and masters scouts, and zerkers can still grab the aggro if they try which imho is just wrong if im spaming every taunt and hate increaser I have they should not beable to pull it off so easy...but like I said the ppl I party with know how to manage there hate lvls and keep the mob off of them and on me.  So a lot of hate managment is not totally up to the guardian...</DIV><p>Message Edited by Axhine on <span class=date_text>05-18-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:23 AM</span>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mentin wrote:<BR> <P>The way the game is designed it is meant to be a balance between the MT taunts and the offensive hate-genereation. The MT is not supposed to be able to keep aggro under all conditions, it is the responsibility of the offensive classes to keep  their aggro below the level established by the MT.</P> <P>Too many offensive classes has the view that MT should be able to keep aggro off them regardless what they do. That is positively wrong. They need to manage their own aggro level, that is the challenge of playing an offensive class.</P> <P>Of course the higher aggro level the tank can make, the more dps can the offensive people dish out, so tauntage is very important. But blaming lost aggro on the MT exclusively is wrong.</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Hear, hear....!! 5 star post..thank you!    Being relatively new at Tankage, I was taking losing aggro seriously - till I realized it's practically impossible if you have a Mage-type that nukes on the pull, any group member that won't stay where you told them you'd pull to..or a healer that mashes buttons hoping that'll do the trick.</P> <P>From the healer standpoint (and a class that gets aggro more than some others...), it is imperative to manage my own aggro - I heal small and under the radar when I can, and big only when necessary.  I have been blessed with some excellent Tanks who have taught me this..but your post puts this in the most succinct way I have seen.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[Shakir10]

<P>This actually brings a thought to mind. What do you guys consider the bigger priority for a lvl 50 guardian, Upgrade skills to Adept III first if able, or upgrade armor first if able?</P> <P>Thanks</P>

[Arsen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Shakir1065 wrote:<p>This actually brings a thought to mind. What do you guys consider the bigger priority for a lvl 50 guardian, Upgrade skills to Adept III first if able, or upgrade armor first if able?</p> <p>Thanks</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote> Good question - I'm not 50 yet, but my priority is basically to get my armor up to scratch first.  I figure there is no way I will MT on a raid in Fulginate <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  I think that if you at least have adept 1 quality taunts, the amount you gain from going to adept 3 would be less than you would gain from the armor.</span><div></div>

[Friskc]

<P>Hey Rassal coming from a skilled zerker here I seem to notice there's lots of zerker's out there that sometime's will use skills like promise of violence, major aggro attack skill that does not show a actual taunt look when used. make sure your zerker is simply useing attack spells and proc's aggro on you ... meaning making you go berserk which will make you build major hate (that's why we do) name of spell is vehemence ect also untill yall get really good chemistry together tell your zerker bud's to NOT use anarchy, awesome buff to use once yall get your aggro problem fixed but until then i would not use. Me and our Gaurdian have incredible group/raid chemistry along with the whole guild, which helps alot with aggro problems and yes it took time to get all this down to a science but thought i might give ya those couple hint's they should go along ways with aggro problem's ....... if they dont stop your zerker is simply being a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and showing off thats all i can really say wish the best of luck!                          oh yea one more thing you will have to at least get your taunt's adept 3 that will go along ways </P> <P>Zerkin Fury of the shard </P> <P>50 zerker of Oggok </P> <P>Guild Nerfed </P> <p>Message Edited by Friskcin on <span class=date_text>05-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:06 PM</span>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Friskcin wrote:<BR> <P>Hey Rassal coming from a skilled zerker here I seem to notice there's lots of zerker's out there that sometime's will use skills like promise of violence, major aggro attack skill that does not show a actual taunt look when used. make sure your zerker is simply useing attack spells and proc's aggro on you ... meaning making you go berserk which will make you build major hate (that's why we do) name of spell is vehemence ect also untill yall get really good chemistry together tell your zerker bud's to NOT use anarchy, awesome buff to use once yall get your aggro problem fixed but until then i would not use. Me and our Gaurdian have incredible group/raid chemistry along with the whole guild, which helps alot with aggro problems and yes it took time to get all this down to a science but thought i might give ya those couple hint's they should go along ways with aggro problem's ....... if they dont stop your zerker is simply being a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and showing off thats all i can really say wish the best of luck!                          oh yea one more thing you will have to at least get your taunt's adept 3 that will go along ways </P> <P>Zerkin Fury of the shard </P> <P>50 zerker of Oggok </P> <P>Guild Nerfed </P> <P>Message Edited by Friskcin on <SPAN class=date_text>05-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:06 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>::::Handing Zerkin a bag of  punctuation marks::::::<BR>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arielle Nightshade wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Friskcin wrote:<BR> <P>Hey Rassal coming from a skilled zerker here I seem to notice there's lots of zerker's out there that sometime's will use skills like promise of violence, major aggro attack skill that does not show a actual taunt look when used. make sure your zerker is simply useing attack spells and proc's aggro on you ... meaning making you go berserk which will make you build major hate (that's why we do) name of spell is vehemence ect also untill yall get really good chemistry together tell your zerker bud's to NOT use anarchy, awesome buff to use once yall get your aggro problem fixed but until then i would not use. Me and our Gaurdian have incredible group/raid chemistry along with the whole guild, which helps alot with aggro problems and yes it took time to get all this down to a science but thought i might give ya those couple hint's they should go along ways with aggro problem's ....... if they dont stop your zerker is simply being a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and showing off thats all i can really say wish the best of luck!                          oh yea one more thing you will have to at least get your taunt's adept 3 that will go along ways </P> <P>Zerkin Fury of the shard </P> <P>50 zerker of Oggok </P> <P>Guild Nerfed </P> <P>Message Edited by Friskcin on <SPAN class=date_text>05-20-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>12:06 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>::::Handing Zerkin a bag of  punctuation marks::::::<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Seriously..he may not be able to punctuate, but on my very small list of Tanks I Trust (tm), which is 3...Zerkin is #2.  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

[Friskc]

<DIV>HAHAHA she is such sweetheart hehe yea not many wardens i trust as well...... and of course you Boyfriend #1 being a monk hehe baylen is leet though . yea he better not quit playin eq2 like he said when we were pwning venekor a couple days ago!! so talk him out of it you women seem to be able to do uber stuff like that yea btw i never paid attention in grammar school haha yall get my drift though.................... here's your punctuation's!!     I shouldnt of played so much eq and maybe i would have thanks to soe and there awesome games lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkin</DIV>

[Arielle Nightshade]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Friskcin wrote:<BR> <DIV>HAHAHA she is such sweetheart hehe yea not many wardens i trust as well...... and of course you Boyfriend #1 being a monk hehe baylen is leet though . yea he better not quit playin eq2 like he said when we were pwning venekor a couple days ago!! so talk him out of it you women seem to be able to do uber stuff like that yea btw i never paid attention in grammar school haha yall get my drift though.................... here's your punctuation's!!     I shouldnt of played so much eq and maybe i would have thanks to soe and there awesome games lol</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Zerkin</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yeah, I told him if he sells his toon and quits...I'll cyber Opester and post the log on forums  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />    I think he's just a little burned out, but hopefully will stay.<BR>