MT'ing Epic encounters

[Mode]

<DIV>I was wondering if a few of the end game guardians would share their agro control method. I'm a Warlock (I know the bane of evil) and I am always pulling aggro from the guild MT (Guardian) on raids when I attempt to maximize my single target dps. As it stands if I stay under about 200 dps on a single target I don't gain aggro but when ever I push it up over that I'm pretty much toast. I understand the importance of agro control so before I resolve to limiting myself on raids I thought I would get a few of your thoughts on things the guardian could try to allow me to increase my damage output.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I have found that if I have a Paladin in the group with me with his hate stealing buff on me I can crank out the dps without gaining agro but as the pally is not always available I'm looking for other alternitives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MastikFantastik]

<DIV>Well there is certain times no matter what we do agro will be lost. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Such as Chain casting nukes with fairly high agro per nuke landing on a mob. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have all sort of nuke upgraded where as the MT doesn't have his Taunts upgraded really. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bugged mobs that the agro resets mid way through. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But generally the MT if he used to being the MT won't lose much agro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most times the MT on a raid ancounter will have HTL on, taunting, and buffing, therefore agro shouldn't be an issue.  Also if it is getting later in the fight and for whatever reason the MT  is running real low on power he will need people to help feed him some (regain power) or switch to another MT possibly.  I notice that most often when I lose agro in a raid scenario it is right off the bat if I haven't had a chance to really put agro on the mob (people nuking or in some case buffing as the pull comes in.. not smart on their parts).  or  it is nearing the end of the fight. The fight has lasted long enough that I am OOP or very low and then someone goes crazy spamming nukes, buffs, etc... to try and help kill the mob off faster (say there is 5% or less of the hp on the mob).  But  as a general rule the MT should be able to maintain agro as long as people aren't spamming their nukes (chain casting).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[benba]

<P>Guardians are not great at holding Aggro so I always tell the raid group to take it easy on DPS till I build up aggro.  Warlock and Wizard can still take aggro when they use certain spell and it's hard for us to get aggro back.</P> <P>People are always crying about Guardians being uber, but we can't hold or gain aggro like Zereker or Pally. With a Zereker or Pally, DPS can chain without having to die.</P>

[Feldorm]

I've no idea if you do this already but spread your dps evenly over the whole fight, i.e. do the same dps when the mob's hp is 95% as you would when the mob is at 5%. It takes 4 seconds for a guardian to get 4 taunts on after a pull = like 2k hate = more hate than a hefty nuke From what I've found aggro building does not work.  If you give the guardian a period to build aggro (of longer than 10 seconds) then you are wasting potential dps. If you can do a sustained 200dps without getting aggro when the mob is at 10% hp then you can go straight in at 200dps after 10 seconds without getting aggro, (providing you have a competant tank who maintains the same level of taunting throughout the fight). Basically don't do 100-150dps for the first half of the fight then 200dps for the seconnd half, do 200dps for the whole fight and by my reckoning you would be no more likely to get aggro as long as the tank maintains a constant level of taunting even though your overall dps is up by a fair bit. But if you still say the tank needs time to build aggro - I disagree. Well I obviously don't know exactly how aggro works but my best guess is there's some kind of aggro decay / max amount of hate relative to others that the tank can get. This essentially means that if you give a tank a long "honeymoon" period to build up tons of hate then that hate will have no effect further on in the fight. It is the same principall with your dps hate early on in the fight. As I say, you may do this already but there's obviously lots of people who don't when mobs' hp suddenly disappear when the mob is at 10% hp. Try it at least if you atm do more dps at the end of the fight than the beginning. Anyway I do not see a viable way for you to push up your dps over 200 or what you are currently doing without getting more aggro. <div></div>

[TunaBoo]

Last night on a raid mob we had a bruiser get a new record dps of 320, and never peeled once. However during the fight, an assassin with 250ish dps peeled me and got 1 hitted. The difference is the assassin does all kinds of debuffs that make hate, but a bruiser is very clean dps. In my experience, wizards and warlocks aren't as 'clean" dps as a monk or bruiser, but are way better then assassins. We don't raid with a warlock these days, but I have never been peeled by a wizard hitting in the 230 range on raids.. we used to raid with a warlock and it wasn't too big of a problem. Your tank needs to make sure all his taunts are adept3+, and that he uses ALL his taunts avaiable, even the grey ones. <div></div>

[Tankz]

<P>Jebus Tunaboo, whats the name of your Bruiser? Our server literally has one bruiser post 40, and he's lvl 46. Our monks can achieve around 240 dps stacking miti debuffs, with Prismatic + fabled, etc. Would like to know what he's on, and his name so i can taunt our monks <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>As far as keeping aggro, i spam. I use all my taunts, i use all my drains, i use all my debuffs. If it has no noticable stun i even throw in whatever damage i can. There is not a second during the fight that you shouldn't be casting some sort of CA. </P> <P>Clean damage is key for other classes not pulling aggro. One raid I had our guild leader (50 wizard) maintain about 230 dps. A lvl 47 wizard somehow pulled aggro with notiably less dps. If your using any kind of debuffs, take that into account those pull more aggro than straight dps.</P> <P>As far as building aggro, i disagree with that. The Mystic will almost always throw out several debuffs in the first 10 seconds of a fight. If you can out taunt the mystic debuff aggro and heals, you can out taunt dps. As long as your not nuking on incoming, your fine.</P>

[Noah]

<P>Most of our warlocks will pull about 400dps a fight... I usually dont lose agro.</P> <P>Trick - none.  Adept 3 your stuff, HO your taunts, and use our haste buff with HTL.  If you really want agro, proc'ing HTL with the Haste buff we have secures it (and dont have your def stance up for a decr in attk spd).</P> <P>Raids have changed a lot for us.  The more I can hold agro, the crazier the dps can use power.   Fights have decrease in *time* a huge amount.  </P> <P> </P>

[Nazo]

<DIV>From what I have seen upto now agro is not a simple linear equation. Rather then being purely dependant on DPS the hate generation also seem to be class and spell/ability dependant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>My nightmares when MTing are Swashbucklers and Warlocks who did upgrade their spells that also have debuff components to Adept III. When I have these guys in the raid form up I know id advance that I will have to earn my keep that day rather then slacking :smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As one of the posters said estimating the length of the fight in advance and spreading your power across the whole fight solves 99% of the agro problems. HTL is a great tool and Adept III'ing all your short buffs helps a lot. Coming from EQ I still use Incoming button then after a couple of hits annouce ASSIST. Check the mana of your DPS'ers at the end of the fight and if they are almost out of mana at the end of a fight then I would say you are doing your job.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Nazowa on <span class=date_text>05-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:05 PM</span>

[Ibis]

<div></div>scouts need an adjustment to the aggro they generate from secondary effects in addition to a hike in damage.  aside from that we're good to go. and I agree that aggro does seem to deteriorate or something, perhaps even on a mob to mob basis.  building aggro seems to have little effect. Noah's comments about how to generate aggro are as good as it gets.  Commanding Presence is a good AE aggro tool for multiple and single encounter situations.  I'd get this in adept 3 or better. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>05-06-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:27 AM</span>

[lostsandman]

<P>Noah,</P> <P>When you talk about our haste buffs you mean Desperate Flurry like spell? </P> <P>Right now i am finding that i run out of power very quickly while doing normal taunts and buffs.</P> <P> </P> <P>If i use this skill won't i run out of power even more quickly? because they drain power?</P> <P> </P> <P>Another question for you guys,</P> <P>Say i am using the haste buff and i am also using other haste items/buff and HTL active. So everytime i hit the mob there is 33% chance for HTL proc.</P> <P>So would you use dual wield, 1h/shield or 2h in this case? </P> <P>If we are using dual wield does HTL has more chance to prco? becaue we have 2 weapons and each will hit?</P> <P>I normaly use 1h and shiled for hard fights but some times some people use 2h weapon becaue the delay mean less riepost. </P> <P>Some advice on this is greatly welcome</P> <P> </P> <P>Many thanks</P>

[Noah]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> lostsandman wrote:<BR> <P>Noah,</P> <P>When you talk about our haste buffs you mean Desperate Flurry like spell? </P> <P>Right now i am finding that i run out of power very quickly while doing normal taunts and buffs.</P> <P> </P> <P>If i use this skill won't i run out of power even more quickly? because they drain power?</P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>Yes, Desp Flurry will help you proc HTL a ton and hold agro better.  33% chance and with our haste it goes off a ton.  I generally stay away from all CAs cept taunts while MTing.... 1) conserves power  2) allows other guardians to use the non stackable CAs (god this list is way to long...).</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>Ok peeps i am astonished at what you people are saying here i am a lvl 50 kerran guardian which carries the name shades on the lucan dlere server! Guardians not able to hold agroe better thena  zerker or a pala  thats just a load a crap! I only lost agroe to two people since playing and mostly that was cause i was slacking the first is a swashy on the lucan server named nightchild a good frd of mine who i always ask to go all out right after the pull, he does pul agroe sometimes but on rare occasions and the mob ussually is dead by then. Now the other person who was able to get agroe from me was an ogre bruiser named vopice also on the lucan server, a great player with huge dps other then that i had contests with pallies / zerkers to hold agroe or pull em off eachotehr in runneyeye not sure if its posted on zerker forums or the pally forums gonna check that out later! but the point i am trying to make is that i rarely loose agroe let alone never if peeps dont go all out like the swashy!</P> <P>I learned a lot about agroe control from him going all out and made me become a better tank on raid encounters there is surely lots i can improve but i get the job done! To say that a pally or a zerker outagroes a guardian is just ludicrous in my eyes! i would agree with zerker if and only if a guardian isnt supposed to taunt and try to hold agroe with just dps but any fighter type can tell ya thats not the way plated tanks hold agroe!</P> <P>If you gain agroe from yer guardian frd try doing some tests wiht him on lower lvl mobs that dont die too fast and let him practice on the agroe hold, let him try different things to make him improve his abilities to hold agroe ( this assuming you are not spammin the heavy nukes form start)!</P> <P>Hope this helps a fellow guardian out!</P>

[English Da Gua]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:<BR> <P>Ok peeps i am astonished at what you people are saying here i am a lvl 50 kerran guardian which carries the name shades on the lucan dlere server! Guardians not able to hold agroe better thena  zerker or a pala  thats just a load a crap! I only lost agroe to two people since playing and mostly that was cause i was slacking the first is a swashy on the lucan server named nightchild a good frd of mine who i always ask to go all out right after the pull, he does pul agroe sometimes but on rare occasions and the mob ussually is dead by then. Now the other person who was able to get agroe from me was an ogre bruiser named vopice also on the lucan server, a great player with huge dps other then that i had contests with pallies / zerkers to hold agroe or pull em off eachotehr in runneyeye not sure if its posted on zerker forums or the pally forums gonna check that out later! but the point i am trying to make is that i rarely loose agroe let alone never if peeps dont go all out like the swashy!</P> <P>I learned a lot about agroe control from him going all out and made me become a better tank on raid encounters there is surely lots i can improve but i get the job done! To say that a pally or a zerker outagroes a guardian is just ludicrous in my eyes! i would agree with zerker if and only if a guardian isnt supposed to taunt and try to hold agroe with just dps but any fighter type can tell ya thats not the way plated tanks hold agroe!</P> <P>If you gain agroe from yer guardian frd try doing some tests wiht him on lower lvl mobs that dont die too fast and let him practice on the agroe hold, let him try different things to make him improve his abilities to hold agroe ( this assuming you are not spammin the heavy nukes form start)!</P> <P>Hope this helps a fellow guardian out!</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>  To many ! to read at 4am lolz.</P> <P>  To the OP, basically what Noah has said here as well as everyone else is a good roadmap to MTing epic encounters. It isn't going to be flawless your first time out, and no one should expect this. It will take time with guildies to get used to how you tank, but after a few fights (hopefully wins) everyone will start to fall in line and your job, as well as their DPS will begin to approach max efficiency.</P><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>05-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 AM</span>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

<P>I will try to spell better next time but let me say that my native language isnt english so i think i didnt do too bad. </P> <P>I came back to the forum to add the way ill hold agroe (at lvl 50 tho) .</P> <P>there are three different ways i pull mobs</P> <P>1. shoot arrow at mobs run at em or back away depending on situation, immediatly start an HO and drop protect (adept 3) on the group then when i am in position i drop HTL if i think its necesary then use retaliate and start a new HO which i finish off with taunting assault and then drop a buff or two ( refresh them ) this ussually gives me so much hate and it takes about 10-15 secs (dont pin me on the secs tho)</P> <P>2. run up to the mob turn them around and use deafen / protect again start an HO and finish it off drop commanding presence and just keep spamming HO's (with a smart healer or a scout who know how i play can even get the good HO's this way) so there is lil difference between #1 and #2 but it seems to work!</P> <P>3. a proximity pull - all the tanks around lvl 30-40 have someday in their career been to runney eye the miners with the shift boss is an excellent example if ya use taunt or arrow pull the whole room agroes so do a body pull as soon as the miners see ya and come chase ya run back and use commanding presence to make hate larger, then as soon as they hit the hall start taunting like nuts i believe smothering cry is the taunt ya have at that lvl use HO's etc and again spam HO's they are the key to holding agroe when yer a pally why not use it as a guardian and add even more hate to the encounter!</P> <P>These are the easiest ways to hold agroe if tunaboo (a 50 ogre whom i never met) of whom i read lotsa posts has something to add or any other 50 guardian who can even improve the way i pull bring it on, i am always ready to learn a bit more and get even better!</P> <P>Hope this helps</P> <P>Shades 50 kerran guardian of lucan d'lere</P> <P>PS: again i apologize if my spelling is a bit off feel free to correct them!</P>

[English Da Gua]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:<BR> <P>I will try to spell better next time but let me say that my native language isnt english so i think i didnt do too bad.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Ya I edited it to just a comment on the use of !</FONT> :smileytongue:</P> <P>I came back to the forum to add the way ill hold agroe (at lvl 50 tho) .</P> <P>there are three different ways i pull mobs</P> <P>1. shoot arrow at mobs run at em or back away depending on situation, immediatly start an HO and drop protect (adept 3) on the group then when i am in position i drop HTL if i think its necesary then use retaliate and start a new HO which i finish off with taunting assault and then drop a buff or two ( refresh them ) this ussually gives me so much hate and it takes about 10-15 secs (dont pin me on the secs tho) <FONT color=#ffff00>This is all true, but this is about epic encounters, and both protect and retaliate do not work vs ^^^</FONT></P> <P>2. run up to the mob turn them around and use deafen / protect again start an HO and finish it off drop commanding presence and just keep spamming HO's (with a smart healer or a scout who know how i play can even get the good HO's this way) so there is lil difference between #1 and #2 but it seems to work! Ya, HOs are a must. <FONT color=#ffff00>They make your taunt into something exponentially better and over the course of a raid you can get off quite a few.</FONT></P> <P>3. a proximity pull - all the tanks around lvl 30-40 have someday in their career been to runney eye the miners with the shift boss is an excellent example if ya use taunt or arrow pull the whole room agroes so do a body pull as soon as the miners see ya and come chase ya run back and use commanding presence to make hate larger, then as soon as they hit the hall start taunting like nuts i believe smothering cry is the taunt ya have at that lvl use HO's etc and again spam HO's they are the key to holding agroe when yer a pally why not use it as a guardian and add even more hate to the encounter!</P> <P>These are the easiest ways to hold agroe if tunaboo (a 50 ogre whom i never met) of whom i read lotsa posts has something to add or any other 50 guardian who can even improve the way i pull bring it on, i am always ready to learn a bit more and get even better!</P> <P>Hope this helps</P> <P>Shades 50 kerran guardian of lucan d'lere</P> <P>PS: again i apologize if my spelling is a bit off feel free to correct them! <FONT color=#ffff00>Nah don't worry, it will be fine during the day, but at 4am when you can hardly see straight it makes reading a bit harder.</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> Pretty much your ideas are very sound. The best way to know if you are doing a good job or not is to see whether or not you lose aggro. If you do, then you are doing something wrong. If you do not, there is no need to follow the examples of others. There is more then one way to hold aggro. Be it through taunts exclusively, the use of DPS or the use of buffs, the ways to hold aggro are many and change depending on what you are doing. </DIV><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>05-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:46 AM</span>

[AdiX__Styxx__]

on the lich adds protect works and it cause hate on the triple up at least i think it does for completion of the HO's on epic encounters i even have a special Hotkey bar with the lowby shout  move and the other taunts ya get when yer lower then 20 its just one extra 200 hate added onto you its not much but its better then nothing if ya are just sitting looking pitifully at yer hotkye where protect is sitting and thinking [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] it isnt working ! the lich was fun to kill tho! had about 12 health left at the end and healers were practically depleted!

[English Da Gua]

<P>  Yes, as I said protect works on epic encounters, even though it says it does not. However, if you have the ^^^ targetted it will not cast. Also, I have stated in other posts that I felt like it generated hate on the ^^^ as well, but I have no proof of that, and to be honest, I feel the hate I did generate was more due to initial aggro being that I pulled. Even on the lich encounter, I have found shouting cry adept 3 + aoe + buffs + HTL to be more then enough to keep a firm lock on every mob.</P> <P>  The whole target a ^^ in a group with a ^^^ to get protect to work has always been something that intrigued me, but aggro isn't really an issue on adds. I find, other then when I first began to raid, that I never lost aggro on the pets / adds. Only time I had any issue was due to a zerker in the guild who had 0 knowledge of his class and thought it was funny to take aggro like it was a competition :smileymad: </P> <P>  I would be curious to see if anyone could provide solid proof that by targettting a ^^ that the full hate of protect was produced on the ^^^. Not sure how you would, I guess you could just continually use protect and see how long it would take an auto attacking guildie to steal aggro and then do the same by targetting the ^^ in the same gorup with shouting cry. All good things to point out and bring up, as any tricks that work are ones you should use....up until they get nerfed. The shimmering star BP is a good example of that :smileytongue:</P><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>05-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 PM</span>

[Tankz]

<DIV>Templar and Inquisitor reactives build hate for the person who is being healed. It's a known bug that SoE seems to be afraid of tackling, and rightfully so. Most of the time you get "weird" aggro, this is the cause. So on encounters like Arch Lich and Zalak, Krathuk, and all the other stupid [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] 100 add encounters; your aggro management should involve getting initial aggro above all else. Use it as a tool to get and hold aggro until they fix it, and things will go much easier.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And i'm begining to be thankful our server population is so low that Warlocks and Bruisers don't exist. I've out dps'd our wizard on some fights (3/4 of raid mobs are ice immune).</DIV>

[lostsandman]

Noah, I am sorry if i sound stupid (which i properly am!) yuo said, "<font color="#ff0000">I generally stay away from all CAs cept taunts while MTing</font>" But in order for HTL to proc, you need to hit the mobs. So i am assuming that you just let your toon swing and hit normally without using CA? <div></div>

[Arsen]

The bigger question I think is really how do people manage their power during a raid encounter.  Obviously you want an enchanter around, but how else do you get in-game power regen?  I'm sure Noah and the other full time raid guys have some nice uber items that help, but for the rest of us normal folk, those power regen items are not so easy to find - especially in tanking gear.  If I fire up desperate flurry and start firing off all my taunts as fast as I can, I'll be oop inside a minute <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Unless... does desperate flurry drop when you go oop? <div></div>

[Oakwood]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arsenal wrote:<BR><BR>Unless... does desperate flurry drop when you go oop?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Yes, it does.  But note it only takes 50 power every 30 seconds.  That isn't very much compared to our frighteningly innefficient damage abilities.  If you are main tanking, and focus on aggro instead of DPS your power should be fine.  And like Noah said, most of our damage abilities do not stack.  If you are the tank and there is another guard in the raid, let him use the damage skills, since only one guardian can really focus on dps on a mob at any one time.</DIV>

[Urglu]

<P>For those who use Desparate Flurry + HTL for more agro, do you find the extra ripostes you must get from hitting more often cause a problem for you?</P>

[English Da Gua]

<P>  Yes, as Oakwood said our hastes will turn off when oop. Now, they do not right away, they will turn off at the 30 second point when they usually tick the power dot if you do not have enough power in reserve. </P> <P>   As for offensive CAs and being oop. With an enchanter I have to use my CAs just to run out of power, and all I have usually is my prismatic, if it is even equipped as there are supierior weapons to the sword anyway :smileysad:</P> <P>   If you have to spam all your taunts, the people stealing aggro are doing something wrong. I used to have this problem with a guild assassin, but after pointing it out that he was at like 20 power when the mob was at 80, he began to change how he did things and keep his power in line with the mobs life, and after that he never stole aggro again. By time you are able to raid, you would hope all the other classes would understand how to not take aggro, but sometimes a few procs in a row or massive attacks will take aggro and that is how it goes. Usually you can get it back quickly.</P> <P>  If you are low on power, even using manastone, ask a wiz or necro for their mana restoration or use a clarity potion if you have one. I hate raiding without an enchanter, but sometimes you get stuck without one. All I can say is work HOs, and everyone in your group should now to start theirs when they can, and the scout needs to know what HO to change it to and when not to change it. HOs give free hate, dps and buffs.</P> <P>   With an enchanter I will use CAs to make an HO progress if the paladin didn't. Also, even without an enchanter I keep forced swing on my hotbar if I need a low lvl attack to move an HO forward. In terms of the kick icon I just keep swamp up since it is adept 3 and I find I do not see the kick item enough to warrant a low lvl kick on the hotbar just to save a little power. </P> <DIV>  EDIT - To the above poster, in one word, no. But, even if you did, you could always switch out to a lower delay weapon and still have a good attack rate / more damage.</DIV><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>05-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[Banditman]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tankzem wrote:<div>Templar and Inquisitor reactives build hate for the person who is being healed. </div><hr></blockquote> This is no longer the case.  They have "fixed" it so the heal is properly assigned to the Cleric now.  I do believe they missed a couple of spells when making the change, but at least SOME of the Reactives are now assigning healing, and hate, to the Clerics. Beware.</span><div></div>

[Skha]

<blockquote><hr>AdiX__Styxx__ wrote:<P>Ok peeps i am astonished at what you people are saying here i am a lvl 50 kerran guardian which carries the name shades on the lucan dlere server! Guardians not able to hold agroe better thena  zerker or a pala  thats just a load a crap! I only lost agroe to two people since playing and mostly that was cause i was slacking the first is a swashy on the lucan server named nightchild a good frd of mine who i always ask to go all out right after the pull, he does pul agroe sometimes but on rare occasions and the mob ussually is dead by then. Now the other person who was able to get agroe from me was an ogre bruiser named vopice also on the lucan server, a great player with huge dps other then that i had contests with pallies / zerkers to hold agroe or pull em off eachotehr in runneyeye not sure if its posted on zerker forums or the pally forums gonna check that out later! but the point i am trying to make is that i rarely loose agroe let alone never if peeps dont go all out like the swashy!</P> <P>I learned a lot about agroe control from him going all out and made me become a better tank on raid encounters there is surely lots i can improve but i get the job done! To say that a pally or a zerker outagroes a guardian is just ludicrous in my eyes! i would agree with zerker if and only if a guardian isnt supposed to taunt and try to hold agroe with just dps but any fighter type can tell ya thats not the way plated tanks hold agroe!</P> <P>If you gain agroe from yer guardian frd try doing some tests wiht him on lower lvl mobs that dont die too fast and let him practice on the agroe hold, let him try different things to make him improve his abilities to hold agroe ( this assuming you are not spammin the heavy nukes form start)!</P> <P>Hope this helps a fellow guardian out!</P> <hr></blockquote>/wave shades

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Tankzem wrote:<div>Templar and Inquisitor reactives build hate for the person who is being healed. </div><hr></blockquote> This is no longer the case.  They have "fixed" it so the heal is properly assigned to the Cleric now.  I do believe they missed a couple of spells when making the change, but at least SOME of the Reactives are now assigning healing, and hate, to the Clerics. Beware.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote>I haven't noticed this change yet with my inquisitor... I will have to have my normal MT not taunt and I will get some extra reactives off and test if I can pull agro..  conversely with my drood I can pull agro very easily if the MT isn't careful.. </span><div></div>

[Banditman]

That's because all of the spells haven't been changed yet, but at least SOME of them have. I was grouped with a 47 Templar a couple nights ago and I noticed the messages assigning healing to him instead of the tank. <div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:That's because all of the spells haven't been changed yet, but at least SOME of them have. I was grouped with a 47 Templar a couple nights ago and I noticed the messages assigning healing to him instead of the tank. <div></div><hr></blockquote>I know the direct heals will assign healing to the cleric...  and I log all my stuff so I suppose I could quit being lazy and check it out... if they -did- swap them over to work the right way it will be yet another stealth change that affects us negatively before we get the good stuff since it was supposed to be in the priest realances... and getting the bad without the good is never fun...</span><div></div>

[Banditman]

I may have logged that session too . . . I'll have to look for it, perhaps the logs will indicate which spells it was, but the heals were too small to be direct heals, had to be reactives going off. <div></div>

[Mode]

<P>Thanks for all the info guys. I'm glad to see we have such an active guadian board and folks willing to share info. </P>

[Sinadi]

Reactives haven't been fixed. None of them credit the caster correctly. What you're seeing are direct heals and the result of a buff (debuff?) cast by the cleric that has a chance to proc a heal; it might be Mark or Involuntary Curate which was just fixed in the last update. <div></div>

[Tankz]

<P>I'm like 99% sure that they haven't fixed their reactive aggro issues. They've built this game around their current system and are basically screwed on trying to fix it. Almost every encounter in game now comes with stupid amounts of adds (Ant, CL, and feerrott epics, The Krathuk, etc) which would be impossible for the MT to taunt while keeping straight aggro on the raid mob. The alternative of having multiple MT groups and splitting healers would be insanely dangerous against mobs that can nuke for 6k+ with good resists.</P> <P>I pulled aggro on the Arch Linchs' adds last night over our lvl 50 off guardian w/o using any AoE taunts. I also pulled all the Elemental things w/o sneezing at them and kept them stuck to me over Warden heals. </P> <P>On a lot of encounters I believe that Templar Group & Single reactives along with Inquisitor reactives generate more hate than the actual taunts we dish out. If they ever fix this you'll see a lot of baffled guardians.</P>

[Arsen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Tankzem wrote: <p>On a lot of encounters I believe that Templar Group & Single reactives along with Inquisitor reactives generate more hate than the actual taunts we dish out. If they ever fix this you'll see a lot of baffled guardians.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>This could also be why in certain instances, it is nearly impossible to regain aggro once you loose it.  Maybe the cleric had a group reactive heal up and you lost aggro - all of the sudden the reactives go off and build up hate for that person.  Meanwhile the cleric drops another reactive on them to try to keep them alive... and now you have basically no chance of regaining aggro.</span><div></div>

[ArivenGemini]

<span><blockquote><hr>Arsenal wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Tankzem wrote: <p>On a lot of encounters I believe that Templar Group & Single reactives along with Inquisitor reactives generate more hate than the actual taunts we dish out. If they ever fix this you'll see a lot of baffled guardians.</p> <div></div><hr></blockquote>This could also be why in certain instances, it is nearly impossible to regain aggro once you loose it.  Maybe the cleric had a group reactive heal up and you lost aggro - all of the sudden the reactives go off and build up hate for that person.  Meanwhile the cleric drops another reactive on them to try to keep them alive... and now you have basically no chance of regaining aggro.</span><div></div><hr></blockquote> That is exactly it... right now cleric reactive heals and shaman wards generate hate for the person they are on, and not the caster (And I suspect palidan wards do the same).  So if I toss a reactive onto someone and they get hammered and it goes off (for example) 4 times, thats 4 heals that THEY have cast...  so in situations like that I try to be sure to use a direct heal and NOT a reactive on them.. and you should caution your clerics and shamans to do the same... that way the heal agro is spread amongst the healers not the poor soul getting hit.. And if agro gets on me, I tap my "EEK AGRO ON ME" button and try to weather the storm while the MT pulls it off of me...thank brell for heavy armor.. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> There is another interesting side effect going on with the heals and this brokenness that basically gives clerics a free heal... if I toss a reactive (solo or group) on someone prior to combat they have 40 seconds of effectiveness.. letting them engage and encounter and get healed for that time frame without me going into combat mode... thus letting me regenerate to full power again before I have to heal....  This does NOT work on druids, as the instant the HOT ticks, bam you are in combat mode with the combat regen rate...  I dont know about shamans since I dont have one... This in my opinion while nice, gives the cleric even more advantage over the druid...</span><div></div>

[Sithal]

<DIV>Had a wierd agro situation happen to me last night on a epic raid.  We were fighting the Maiden's Gulch drake and the ^^ inquisitor and two guardians.  Killed the inquisitor first and suddenly the named and two guardians jumped on other people in the raid, the named went on a wizard in my group.  I spammed taunts as fast as I could before she dropped at which point I got agro back.  The interesting things to point out:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I was taunting the named the entire time while raid killed off the inquisitor</DIV> <DIV>We're both in the same group getting same group reactives</DIV> <DIV>I had single target reactives being cast on me</DIV> <DIV>She never cast a single spell agains the named</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Technically I should have generated more agro than her due to having more reactives and her only being hit by AE's.  Oddly at the exact same time the inquisitor died the agro I had was lost.  The guardians did not agro on her, but another person on the raid (not sure if both guardians went on to different people).  This was not reactive heal / ward generating more agro.  There is definately a issue with group combat / killing mob in group causing a loss of agro and should be looked at.  This isn't a new thing I have noticed with the recent patch but has been happening for a long while now.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sithal on <span class=date_text>05-11-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:05 PM</span>

[Tankz]

<P>Maidens Gulch has an aggro programming problem in which aggro basically resets everytime an add dies or almost everytime. I've done MG a good 20+ successfuls and more fails; it's a fairly consistant bug. The best way to counter is to hold a few taunts just before an add dies, shield bash and unleash taunts. </P> <P>Or you could be an uber guardian and go solo the instance. Either way is good.</P>

[H4LIF]

<DIV>I can use like 10+ skills to keep aggro if I must.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Deafen @ Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Vengeful strike @ Adept 3</DIV> <DIV>Taunting assault @ Adept 3 <<< breaks mez thou</DIV> <DIV>Taunting blow @ Adept 1 << lower lvl taunt <DIV> <DIV>Taunting challenge @ Adept 1 << lower lvl taunt <DIV> <DIV>Hold The Line @ Adept 1 <<< very useful</DIV> <DIV>Commanding pressence @ adept 1 <<< 30sec buff which generates nice aggro</DIV> <DIV>Desperate rush @ Master 1 <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <<< 55% hastebuff (40+ somethng on adept 1) *helps alot.</DIV> <DIV>Fortified stance @ Adept 3 <DIV>Cleave @ Adept 3 <<< DoT... seems to get me some aggro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And recast HP buffs when necessary.... its like 3-4 skills with 1 min until u can cast next....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But if your friens know how to handle their DPS/BUFFS and so on... u wont have a problem</DIV> <DIV>and dont be afraid to say if u cant keep up with their DPS</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EQ2 is about working together and help eachother out <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If u dont have adept 3 it doesnt matter that much... as long u try to get them to adept 1</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by H4LIF4X on <span class=date_text>05-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:14 AM</span>

[Arsen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Sithal wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>Had a wierd agro situation happen to me last night on a epic raid.  We were fighting the Maiden's Gulch drake and the ^^ inquisitor and two guardians.  Killed the inquisitor first and suddenly the named and two guardians jumped on other people in the raid, the named went on a wizard in my group.  I spammed taunts as fast as I could before she dropped at which point I got agro back.  The interesting things to point out:</div> <div> </div> <hr></blockquote> Thats a common problem with some types of monsters.  The best way I've found to combat is to use an area attack to actually do damage to all the monsters in the group.  Make sure to do this after each one dies as well, otherwise they just forget about you.  If I know I am in an encounter where this might happen, I generally use my area taunt at first, then right before the first monster is going to die, I use an area attack.  Then before the second monster is going to die, use another area attack.  They key is to keep reminding them that you are there every so often so they don't forget about you.</span><div></div>

[Shizzirri]

<P>I wouldn't be that inclined to use desperate rush on a raid mob if I was MT 55% haste = more ripos, and on big mobs that can make a difference between success and fail, I do use it when I'm not tanking however.  I usually cycle between Deafen, Venegful strike, and taunting challenge, using an occasional AE when there up, and I do use fighter ho's in the rare hope of getting hero's armor, which I have goten before on a big mob.  I don't have a solid MT method set in stone because each mob is different, ie darathar vs arch lich for one, I certainly wouldn't use rush on Arch lich as he knocks out your power fast enough as it is, even with Breeze/luminary fate up.  All I know is my system seems to work and if I don't lose aggro/die from something stupid I do I'm happy.</P> <P>BTW the difference between commanding presence AD1 and AD3 is very minimal don't bother upgrading it if you have ad1.</P>

[Sithal]

Tankzem and Arsenal, I was maintaining agro on the named the entire time by using several single target taunts and power drain and when my AE taunts were available switching to the inquisitor to redo my agro on the little guys.  So it wasn't a simple fact that my agro level dropped or that I was concentrating all my taunt effort on the inquisitor.  And it didn't look like the agro "reset" because if it had and everyone was at 0 agro then it simply takes 1 taunt to pull agro on to myself.  It was locked solidly on the wizard who did live for a bit of time.  After using 3 taunts and her finally dieing then I got agro back. <div></div>

[Banditman]

In which case Rescue would have worked to save the Wizard. <div></div>

[Pa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sithal wrote:<BR>Tankzem and Arsenal,<BR><BR>I was maintaining agro on the named the entire time by using several single target taunts and power drain and when my AE taunts were available switching to the inquisitor to redo my agro on the little guys.  So it wasn't a simple fact that my agro level dropped or that I was concentrating all my taunt effort on the inquisitor.  And it didn't look like the agro "reset" because if it had and everyone was at 0 agro then it simply takes 1 taunt to pull agro on to myself.  It was locked solidly on the wizard who did live for a bit of time.  After using 3 taunts and her finally dieing then I got agro back.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That happens a lot, practically every grp encounter in nek2. Its happened to me a few times on raids as well but its not as prevalent as a whole zone doing it, that should be where they start to find out the problem. Soon as any mob dies the rest of the grp encounter will just wipe the tank off the hate list and everyone else keeps any agro built over the fight or something. It normally takes 4-5 taunts to regain agro when it happens, and you cant exactly use rescue every 45sec, not to mention rescue is buggy as well.

[Mode]

<P>I think alot of what you guys are seeing with the agro switching when a mob dies is related to the amount of agro given to the person that gets the kill shot on a mob. In some encounters it really pisses the other mobs off when you kill one of their firends. Since Wizards and Warlocks love to get killing shots, ( and they are the best at it with 2000+ nukes) they will gain group wide agro over the encounter and when added to the hate they have generated through the encounter it moves them to the top of the encounter hate list. There are only a few encounters I have seen this happen on reguallarly and Maidens Gulch is one of them. For the most part you have two options.</P> <P>1. Tell the wizard/warlock that is generaly the one to die, to stand close to the main tank so that the mobs are not pulled out of range creating a ping pong wipe situation. Let them get wacked and battle res them.</P> <P>2. Tell the wizard/warlock not to get the killing blow on that encounter.</P> <P> </P> <P><SPAN class=time_text></SPAN> </P><p>Message Edited by Modean on <span class=date_text>05-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:30 AM</span>

[Seth]

<DIV>Shades has an awesome BP.../drool Flame Tested Mail.</DIV>