How should the "intervene" lines be changed?

[Noah]

<DIV>We have a large portion of skills that are never used by most guardians - Allay, Intervene, Sentry, etc etc.  I test the skills often but have yet to really see them become useful.  These could be the key to making non MT guardians useful (or 2nd guardian in a group).  As it stands, in a raid setting, there is only a need for 1 guardian and the rest feel useless since the dps of a guardian is mediocer at best (easily replaced with another dps class).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1st - what are the issues with the current skills?</DIV> <DIV>-Little to no mitigation.</DIV> <DIV>-No mitigation causes for large hits to kill the intervening member.</DIV> <DIV>-Casting time is to long (or buff time to short) for it to be useful in a "dire" situation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2nd - what could be done to make them useful?</DIV> <DIV>-Mitigation is "as normal" but % absorbed is decreased.</DIV> <DIV>-Alternate effects like 2ndary agro lock (incase the MT dies, the 2nd tank will have the agro to an extent).  This would be a very short term buff that when worn off, the 2nd tank would need to have gained enough threat to be 1st on the list of agro.  Perhaps this would even shut down all damage skills and allow for only taunts to happen (IE you're to busy yelling at the mob to make it angry at you).</DIV> <DIV>-Make them extreme fast cast to react quickly to a scout/mage that might have gained agro.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let me know if any of you have had success with the current lines or any major flaws as well.  I personally would love to see more action on the part of a 2nd 3rd or 4th guardian on a raid and make it fun but with our attack skills that dont stack (and taunts/buffs),  most non MT guardians in a raid are autoattack only and hp/skill buff cycle.  When that MT goes down there is little chance for another to step up and gain control.  Encounters (raid) are focused a bit to heavy on if the one MT lives or dies.  These skills that we have could be the key to changing that in the future.</DIV><p>Message Edited by DemosthenesEQ2 on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:25 AM</span>

[tsaav]

<div></div><div></div>LOL, i was wondering the same thing the other day. Its a tough question. After some thinking i really couldn't come up with anything  complete, but i did have some ideas. Basically the way i see it, if your jumping infront of someone to mitigate, block or parry it should use your stats to compute, not a fixed percentage, thats just lame. This of course would make the skills WAY to good <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  So here is my other thought, everytime you block/parry/mitigate for someone you use some power! I mean, if i'm jumping infront of a cleric, that should take some energy, eh? I was also thinking you could map the power usage to the amount of damage blocked/mitigated/parried. Like 250hitpoints blocked  sucks = 100power (you'd have to tweak the ratio to golden tho or it will goto hell quickly). This way intervene could still be used without it killing you, but you still get punished. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <div></div><p>Hey, If they fix these we will finally be able to: "...Don heavy armor to protect ourselves and aid in the defense of our alleys..."   --2004 Copyright Sony Online <span class="time_text"></span></p><p>Message Edited by tsaavik on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:10 AM</span>

[nuz]

<DIV>just up the timers on them, and i'd be happy, The 12 hour Intervene is  probley the first thing i cast in a group now. I am sorry but how could you not find it usefull? It's a godsend for any group with an enchanter because they will pull agro do to the super duepr amount of hate that Breeze generates, now if safe guard and others had the same timer i'd use them to. Bottom line come the Combat changes updates half are powers are going to be remarkably useless</DIV>

[Oakwood]

<DIV> <P>This is what I would like to see.  Throw away all of our current junk in this area and give us something like the folowing:</P> <UL> <LI>Improved shielding abilities.  Not to split damage with the target, but buff avoidance and mitigation.  This can't be targetable on yourself for balance reasons.  The skills need to be concentration based or at the very least on a 10 or 15 minute timer.  It needs to progress as you level, i.e. at level 15, we can give 5-13% avoidance (depending on app/adept/master level, 5% at app I, 9% at app IV, 12% at adept III, etc), at level 25 give 10-18%, level 35 is 15-23%, 45 is 20-28%.  Have a mitigation buff that scales the same way and will stack with the avoidance buff.  So a level 50 guard with master I skills can add 28% to both avoidance and mitigation.  This can even reduce our own abilities, IF it automatically drops the instant the target dies/leaves the group/goes LD.</LI> <LI>Group versions of the above, at a lesser percent.  At leve 20 buff the entire group with +1-8% avoidance (+5 at adept I), and so forth.  This also should be concentration based, and should NOT stack with the individual version.</LI> <LI>Longer duration block skills.  Concentration based or at least 10 minute timer.  % chance to block some or all of the damage taken by the target.  This needs to scale with skill and level.  Higher level skills can increase either success chance or damage blocked, and higher tier (app, adept) will increase the other one.  For balance reasons, these should be for defending soft targets (priest, mage, scout), not buffing other tanks, so it should not stack with fighter self buffs, or perhaps stifle taunt skills.</LI> <LI>Taunt buff/aggro sharing.  Buff another thank, then you taunt all you can, the two tanks split the aggro (50/50, 60/40, exact percent would have to be determined by playtesting).  Increased levels/tiers of the skills can give a more favorable split of aggro, perhaps with adept III and master I giving a split that adds to above 100%</LI></UL> <P>The skills we have are good in theory, but the durations and effectiveness are just not up to par.</P></DIV>

[Szy]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakwood wrote:<BR> <DIV> <UL> <LI>Taunt buff/aggro sharing.  Buff another thank, then you taunt all you can, the two tanks split the aggro (50/50, 60/40, exact percent would have to be determined by playtesting).  Increased levels/tiers of the skills can give a more favorable split of aggro, perhaps with adept III and master I giving a split that adds to above 100%</LI></UL></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>thats a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ing cool idea, would make a secondary tank usefull everywhere.<BR></DIV>

[Lexli]

<P>I am a level 35 guardian, and I have almost exclusively duo'd with my wife who is a 35 warden. Speaking from this perspective, I can say that this line has helped keep her alive a few times (usually from groups of mobs that like to barrage or some other form of AoE). I normally keep up intervene, never surrender, and I think the third is still stand firm. I will use safeguard if she draws aggro for the extra chance to absorb all damage. They don't always work, but if she gets switched to I usually get a few lines of 'You intercept some of the damage ...'. So for us, it works great - I'm sure it could use some improvement, but it does function. I haven't done any raids on big mobs or grouped with other tanks so I can't really comment on that part.</P> <P>We have not yet got into the really heavy hitting mobs, so I have yet to be killed from absorbing her damage. I would like to see some mitigation thrown in though, aside from what the spell kind of provides (Safeguard at adept 1 makes her take 0 and me take 81% of what she would have taken). Also, a faster cast time would be nice.</P>

[Arpophyllum]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <DIV><snip>  I personally would love to see more action on the part of a 2nd 3rd or 4th guardian on a raid and make it fun but with our attack skills that dont stack (and taunts/buffs),  most non MT guardians in a raid are autoattack only and hp/skill buff cycle.  <FONT color=#ffff33>When that MT goes down there is little chance for another to step up and gain control.</FONT>  Encounters (raid) are focused a bit to heavy on if the one MT lives or dies.  These skills that we have could be the key to changing that in the future.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by DemosthenesEQ2 on <SPAN class=date_text>05-02-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:25 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>This is the hardest part of being a second guardian in a group. If the MT is going down, and I hit with every taunt in the book I still have no chance of getting aggro transferred to me. This also applies IMO to non-raid situations. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It also ties into the biggest problems we have with aggro when it's lost: it's extremely difficult to get it back, and Rescue either isn't described well, or is broken.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Sorry if that de-railed things a bit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I, too, rarely use the Intervene line of skills. I've even been told by healers and other group mates<EM> </EM>to <EM>not</EM> use them. Especially in single healer goups. I can't argue with them, I actually agree that I shouldn't use them for most situations. The Allay line of skills are far more useful as a 2nd tank and I do use them frequently.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The only situations that I use any of the Intervene line of skills are in small groups (2 or 3). I usually pick the person most likely to draw aggro from me or fire off too much D too early, etc. and target them with Allay and Intervene.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Noah has summed this up very nicely.</DIV>

[Ibis]

<div></div><div></div>Aropohyllum I think thats actually one of the stronger points.  There is no ability for the benched tanks to take control when the main tank dies.  this is a huge problem.  in EQ1 every tank pressed taunt (fast refresh) and taunt then worked like rescue does now. if someone got lucky they could get aggro and heals started landing on them.  that situation absolutely doesnt happen here.  we can't even simultaneously cast taunts on the mob b/c the secondary effects have a stacking issue.  This is a big issue that needs to be addressed along with simultaneous tank stacking (intervention).  Even if the intervention spells are addressed to be made an important part of raids, this will still be an issue b/c raids will STILL depend on the survival of the MT.  Perhaps even more so if intervention is a requirement for survival in the first place. To my knowledge using the sentinel line of spells neither mitigates damage nor activates reactive heals and wards.  I haven't used these in a long time so I stand to be corrected.  If the second part is still true it needs to be corrected.  Another issue is that these spells fail to scale - the sentry spell is identical or nearly so to the sentinel spell, which are 28 levels apart. I'd like to be able to see an "Intervened" tag fly above the head of a character when a blow targeted at them is re-directed.  I'd also like such tags to exist when the aid-tank ripostes, parries, or blocks for the main tank.  At the least this lets you see the effect on the fly.  I cannot watch every combat channel (I filter most) during battle since the filters are set up so bad and you see so much useless junk. On the subject of how intervene spells should function, I'd like that they stop creating damage in the manner that they do.  When the mob's blow is diverted to myself my mitigation should come into play.  Having a well equipped second tank should be crucial to its effectiveness.  Upgrading these skills will scale how much damage is created.  At app1 they might have it so the main tank takes 85% damage and the aid-tank takes 65%. this creates 50% more damage.  But I'd like them to scale upward quickly until there is zero damage penalty (these spells should never actually mitigate damage taken in below 100%).  At Master 3 I'd have them be capable of a zero damage penalty, shifting damage to 60 main / 40 aid.  Keeping in mind that both players mitigate their portions of damage.  I don't think chance to intervene should ever go over 50% because the emphasis should still remain on the main tank.  The reason I dont want it to scale down to 50 / 50 is that it removes the importance of the MT. I'd have to see this kind of thing in action to really cement the numbers because I think I go too far.  Once the intervening tank actually can mitigate the damage, it might be too powerful to be able to get it down to zero damage penalty.  But master 3 is a long way off for any of us anyway.  I don't want guardians to be a superior aid-tank to a crusader in every situation.  I'd like every single fighter on a raid to have the ability to repair or lower incoming damage to some extent for their group, whether they're with the MT or not.  Paladins can eat least cast wards and heals through the raid.  In EQ1 there were mobs that could rampage, effectively attacking 2 tanks.  We need some forms of splash damage that excess fighters have an effect on if not a full out extra set of swings from the mob. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>05-03-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:47 AM</span>

[nuz]

Have you guys even tried this power latly? at adetp 1 i hardly take dmg, well that i can notice, not to mention it procs the ractive heals and all that.

[Timzil]

<P>I'm against automated shared hate. About the only fun there is on raids is the chaos and challenge of survival if you somehow manage to get your MT killed. </P> <P>Intervene seems useful enough in exp groups. Hits absorbed should be mitigated if they aren't currently. When I'm tanking it's fairly rare that anyone I don't want to get hit gets hit though. </P> <DIV>Allay and it's buddies look to need some help. When I'm the off tank, my MT friends always ask for these buffs though they show no value at the persona window. They say they feel the buff. I'd be happy if these scaled to the targets class. Say a fighter would get a 5 % avoid buff and a mage would get a 35 % buff. Something like that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>44 grd</DIV>

[SmakenDah]

<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">To one of the posters above who suggested a buff to mitigation/avoidance: it comes at later levels and is called Never Surrender, though if I remember right Allay also buffs Avoidance. Never Surrender is later replaced by Vigilance which seems to include a bit of the Intervene line in it (5% chance only though) and increases your parry. I agree with most of the issues mentioned above. I don't even bother using Safe Guard on certain character types (casters) because it seems I'm taking the damage they would take without my armor/avoidance coming into play and that just means my HPs drop like a rock instead of the caster's. Avoidance not happening I can understand, but my mitigation should apply still. I actually find Safe Guard to be of decent use to help bail a tank (and specifically a tank) out of trouble since they have better mitigation and avoidance than other classes. It gives the priest a little more time to catch up on heals. When I get low I just cancel it. It has turned a number of fights around, but that's only in the case of using it on another tank. As I said, using it on a caster tends to get me dead and then the caster. </font><div></div>

[Ibis]

i'm gonna go and toy with the line sometime soon to see the issues and see if my previous understanding of them has changed.  i doubt the mitigation aspect has been changed. <div></div>

[SmakenDah]

<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">As far as I could tell, they haven't changed the mitigation rules to use the tanks and are still using the target's mitigation. </font><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2"> </font><font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">I used Safe Guard on a necromancer (which seemed to nab agro some how - he's not sure how it happened and said he wasn't so much as casting a spell) last night and got my rear end handed to me, at least until I pulled the agro off him. Once I had agro my HPs didn't drop nearly as fast.</font> <div></div>

[Venomo]

<DIV>hi , level 49 guardian here ( and 26 guardian in beta ) and i have to say that the whole line should be scrapped. This is supposed to be our 'class defining line' ( equivalent to pally heals, sk lifetaps etc ) and it is completely useless. Half of the skills are bugged, most of them are completely useless as 90% of the time we are MT and even if you do bother to cast them the chance to intercept is crap or by the time you've cast them the target is dead...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What i would suggest is to replace the line completely with something to utilise our shield using ability:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Shield Knockback? Interrupts target and knocks back a small distance</DIV> <DIV>2) Shield Whirl? AOE block that has a chance for a short duration stun on groups of mobs</DIV> <DIV>3) Shield Wall? Short increase in % to block but all other skills unuseable for the duration ( a bit like an improved 'hunker down' )</DIV> <DIV>4) Shield Stance? Stance that increases chance to block while shield is equipped but reduces guardians attack speed</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>would give us more on an incentive to use shields and also would give us a class defining ability that actually goes with the reason we chose to play a guardian: better tanking ability at the cost of offensive ability</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just an idea, at the moment our class defining spells are only used for the parry buffs</DIV>

[English Da Gua]

<DIV>  One of the better topics I have seen in a while and I really do not have a good answer, so I will just throw out ideas.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Like others have said the ability should scale upward rather dramatically. That being said, overall damage taken should not dip below 100%, and if it did, not by much, and this would only be at the master levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Make sure, like now, the spell cannot be cast on yourself. Also, make the spell line utilize / activate wards and reactives. Finally, the spells should most certainly take into account the mitigation of the caster, not the target.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Perhaps make the spell sort of like a friendly anchor spell. Decrease the guardians attack speed and movement rate while granting an increase to his AC. Therefore, the directed portion of the damage would be lessened slightly. Doesn't have to be +1300ish like anchor, but some number that would make the spell useful on mobs hitting for 6-8k. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   If it broke down to a 60 / 45 ratio. Instead of you taking 3700, due to the increase in ac you would take say 3200. I don't know, just spit balling as this is one of the few topics that has really made me think as of late. Good post Noah.</DIV><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>05-05-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:27 AM</span>

[SmakenDah]

<font color="#ff9900" face="Verdana" size="2">Can you expand on, "half the skills are bugged"? Are you talking about the mitigation issue? More shield abilties would be sweet. While we're on the brief tangent of shields, I'd also like to see more tower shield drops. The first and only tower shield drop I've seen was a Feysteel Tower Shield and that was in Nek Castle (the easy version).</font> <div></div>

[Divy]

<P>I play exclusively the second Guardian in our regular group as the MT has levels on me.</P> <P>The skills were totally useless for quite some time, even at adept 3.</P> <P>However about a month or so ago, I would literally intercept almost every hit on Chanters, Healers, etc with Safeguard, etc. and I could reduce the DPS on the MT by using Never Surrender, etc.</P> <P>Now the skills seem about useless again.  My healers can get hit 100 times and I'll intercept zero hits, even if I'm standing on top of them.  Also with the new avoidance/mitigation cap, using Never surrender, allay, etc on another tank is about useless since you get the won't take hold message all the time.</P> <P>If they could make the spells actually DO what they say they do and bring the cast time down, I see where they would get lots of use and would increase the value of a second guardian in a group.</P> <P>I really like the concept of rescue, fast cast, supposed to get aggro in emergencies, but the god [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] spell doesn't do a thing.  I get more aggro by kicking a MOB than I do from using rescue.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Lyrus]

<DIV>I've actually had a strange bug with Vigilence, the upgrade to never surrender. The skill itself is somewhat nice, with the couple of extra points in parry, also the potential to block a shot intended for someone else, and a 5% chance to intervene. While testing it out, I was actually interveneing damage intended for myself. This happened especially alot with my manastone, which normally does 690 damage, instead, when the intervention effect fires off, it cut a percentage of the damage off, and split it into two different magic hits.  On another note, while parsing Vigilence/Never surrender with an audible cue for whenever I parried an attack intended for someone else, it was averaging 2-3 shots parried per minute, which is in no way 27% of the attacks thrown at the person. I like the concept of the Sentinal line, and have used it successfully on a couple occasions when things went hairy, but with the way things stand now, the skills could be better. I'd actually rather see them instant cast with a shorter duration. With an instant cast you'd be able to fit it in with the desperate rush to taunt as fast as possible , and the shorter duration would be a compromise I'd be willing to take to get more use out of my class defining skill. Hell, even 40 seconds like commanding presence wouldn't be that bad. As for the other issues with the line (Mitigation, reactives firing), those are nothing new and should probably be fixed at all.</DIV>