to gage.

[stainremov]

<div></div>a rather recent post made by moorgard <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=combat&message.id=45756#M45756" target="_blank">here</a> monks/bruisers = more offense = less defense. guard tanking > monk tanking. that is the way it is now. that is the way it will be when balancing is done. <div></div><p>Message Edited by stainremover on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:28 PM</span>

[Smear]

<DIV>You're missing the point.  The latter part of that post said that the gap won't be that large.  While Guards have a slight defensive advantage, a Monk who's tweaked out with more skill CAN be a BETTER tank.  While I can't speak for Gage, I'm sure he would agree that us Monks would be happy if we can fill the role that any Guardian could.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With the tanking gap being reduced, the 'best' tank will all be relative.  All Tanks will be able to tank high-end content somewhat equally, just in different ways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aside from some extremists... this is what I feel the majority of people want:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>For any scenario, there won't be an obvious choice for MT.  Any Fighter can fill the role.  This is balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Balance does't mean a Monk can get his defense as high as a Guardian (it also doesn't mean that a Guardian should avoid better than a Monk IMHO)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Anyways, just random thoughts.</DIV>

[stainremov]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>yeah the differences are not that great, but as the post says. guardians are <i>supposed </i>to be<i> </i>the best tanks. which means they are <i>supposed </i>to be better tanks than monks. that is the way it is designed. that is the way it is intended to be. it is not situational, it is not relative. guardians are the better tanks. sure, if gage or any other monk upgrades all his equipment and all his spells, he will be a good tank, but when it comes down to tanking an epic+++x4, they will pick any guardian (or even paladin) that is not "unskilled" over a monk. that is what all the guardians wanted to see. any monk (or bruiser) who hopes of tanking some epic+++x4 as well as a guardian/paladin might as well give up now. you have little to no chance of ever being able to do so. in fact, you would have better chances if you rolled a zerker or shadowknight. <div></div><p>Message Edited by stainremover on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:38 PM</span>

[Smear]

<DIV>Again, you're missing the point.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All Fighters will be capable tanks.  That giant level 400^^^^^^^x50 Mob should be able to be tanked by all fighters.  If a Guardian can do it, so can a Monk.  That's why they are closing the tanking gap.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think of it this way:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Right now, Guardians ARE top dogs.  If the gap is being closed.. that means either Guardians are losing some tanking ability or everyone else is GAINING some tanking ability.</DIV>

[stainremov]

<div></div><div></div><div></div>no. that's not the point. even if the gap is being closed a bit, the gap is still there. there will still be a difference in tanking ability. don't you get it? if everything else was the same, the guardian is still the better tank. if both a guardian/monk have all adepts and all legendary/fabled equipment, the guardian is still better! even if it is by a little bit. the guardian would still be chosen over the monk. sure you'll be able to tank an epic+++x4. good for you. but a guardian would still tank it better. a raid would pick a guardian over a monk as MT. <div></div><p>Message Edited by stainremover on <span class=date_text>04-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:42 PM</span>

[Smear]

<DIV>That I'm not contesting.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I'm saying is that the Guardian won't always be the immediate choice.  In the end, the better player will be the tank, not the chosen class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The top choice for a Raid will be Player X, not Class X, otherwise, the archetype system has failed.</DIV>

[Squeeb]

<P>I disagree,</P> <P> </P> <P>  For an immediate choice, when someone types a /w lfg, a Guardian will always be picked over anyone else if one is available.</P> <P> </P> <P>I'd just love to see (after the patch) a nice little spelled out (revamped) version of what SOE preceives each class's role to be =).</P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>raid mobs that are off limits to brawlers will still be off limits then.... the big 3 of course.. Darather, Venekor, etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats how it is now - and thats how it will be then. no big differnce</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But please change the thread name, you are just going to get the thread reported and locked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers will just be getting thier DPS ability and damage output polished.... And guardians will just be what they have alwasy been.</DIV>

[stainremov]

squeeb: lol that's not what we're talking about... they all do equally fine in a group. the big discrepancy is in raids and epic encounters. i dont think anybody pulls people lfg when going on a raid, much less an MT. <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>im basically saying that all they are doing is defining what is already there... real simple man.Nothing major.</P> <P>Just lining up the blurry lines...</P> <P>read the monk forum and the post i wrote there. its the way things already are. They are just stamping it into eternity</P> <P> </P>

[ugl]

<P>Sweet..</P> <P> </P> <P>So much for that BS about DPS being a trade off for taunts...</P> <P>I am glad the devs got a good handle on class balance, unlike the whiner monks that troll these boards...</P>

[Fafnir]

<P>Heh, the way it should've always been...</P> <P>:smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P>

[SomeDudeCRO]

HAh pretty funny! Why is his post so difficult for some of you to comprehend?  Yes, Guard's will still be better (as well they should).  No, not all Guardians will still be greater than all Monks always (as well they shouldn't). <div></div>

[Smear]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So much for that BS about DPS being a trade off for taunts...</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <P>We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale.</P> <DIV>With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd have to disagree with you there uglak.  If you read Moorgard's post, he makes four key points.</P> <P>1.)  The spell/CA system is getting an overhaul.  That probably means that the 'Protect' line for Guardians will be working.</P> <P>2.)  SoE uses the word 'tanking' a lot more libarally than we do.  Most people on the boards use it to represent how much damage/time a character takes.  SoE views it as the ability to keep the mob from harming other groupmates.  In essense, the Protect line (when working) will be one reason why Guardians have lower DPS, because it's a defensive oriented buff.  In a hypothetical case, if Monks and Guardians took the same damage in the same period of time, the Monk will have better DPS because the Guardians have the 'Protect' line of defensive buffs.  Obviously, this is not the case, but Moorgard's post says that <STRONG>all </STRONG>abilities are weighed against DPS.  This does include taunts.</P> <P>3.)  If a Guardian can crank out DPS better than a lazy Bruiser, a Guardian off-tank will certainly do more DPS than a Bruiser MT.  With the 'Protect' line being fixed (most likely), Guardians will no longer be a one-trick pony as they will be able to make fine off-tanks as well.</P> <P>4.) The skill of the player will determine that characer's potential because that's the part they can't balance.  He did state they are balancing everything else.  I've seen some pretty terrible Guardians out there (and some great ones too), and I'd certainly think that after this, as a Monk, I'll be a much better tank than them in all situations.</P> <P> </P> <P>I think most people are getting what they want out of this revamp.  Monks will gain tanking ability (because they are closing the gap), and Guardians won't be useless outside of an MT role.</P>

[English Da Gua]

<P>The round of changes currently on Test only deal with the defensive side of things. They won't go live without other changes that are coming.</P> <P>We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale.</P> <DIV>With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV> <P>===========================<BR>Moorgard<BR>EverQuest II Community Guy </P> <DIV>  </DIV> <DIV>  Let us break down the last paragraph since some of you seem to try to turn it into something it isn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms</FONT> -  Guardians are still better tanks defensively, which is what a raid focuses on for an MT. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin</FONT> - This doesn't even talk about guardians, but some people like to infer things out of mid air. This says a better PURE tank, not defensive tank, which, as people have pointed out in other posts, is the best raid tank (although I disagree). </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over</FONT> - So if you are in a guild with a guardian who knows his class and can tank, he will ALWAYS be a better raid tank then you if geared similarly.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>   Pre patch an unskilled / poorly geared guardian was not a better tank then a skilled / well equipped avoidance tank. Jez (a bruiser) proved this consistently. This patch does nothing but cement the fact that guardians are meant to be the best choice for raid tanks if your goal is encounter success / ease. This patch also cements the fact that all tanks should be able to tank end game mobs, which we all wanted. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Hopefully SK skills are fixed and they fall in line with berzerkers as the 3/4 choice for raid tank, all things being equal, and raid goal being ease / success.</DIV>

[English Da Gua]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Smeared wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So much for that BS about DPS being a trade off for taunts...</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <P>We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale.</P> <DIV>With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd have to disagree with you there uglak.  If you read Moorgard's post, he makes four key points.</P> <P>1.)  The spell/CA system is getting an overhaul.  That probably means that the 'Protect' line for Guardians will be working.</P> <P>2.)  SoE uses the word 'tanking' a lot more libarally than we do.  Most people on the boards use it to represent how much damage/time a character takes.  SoE views it as the ability to keep the mob from harming other groupmates.  In essense, the Protect line (when working) will be one reason why Guardians have lower DPS, because it's a defensive oriented buff.  In a hypothetical case, if Monks and Guardians took the same damage in the same period of time, the Monk will have better DPS because the Guardians have the 'Protect' line of defensive buffs.  Obviously, this is not the case, but Moorgard's post says that <STRONG>all </STRONG>abilities are weighed against DPS.  This does include taunts.</P> <P>3.)  If a Guardian can crank out DPS better than a lazy Bruiser, a Guardian off-tank will certainly do more DPS than a Bruiser MT.  With the 'Protect' line being fixed (most likely), Guardians will no longer be a one-trick pony as they will be able to make fine off-tanks as well.</P> <P>4.) The skill of the player will determine that characer's potential because that's the part they can't balance.  He did state they are balancing everything else.  I've seen some pretty terrible Guardians out there (and some great ones too), and I'd certainly think that after this, as a Monk, I'll be a much better tank than them in all situations.</P> <P> </P> <P>I think most people are getting what they want out of this revamp.  Monks will gain tanking ability (because they are closing the gap), and Guardians won't be useless outside of an MT role.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>  Could you possibly ASSUME any more in one post?</P> <P>  And one thing, OUR PROTECT BUFFS ARE NOT BROKE. They work fine and as intended. The problem is the concept fails once you begin to raid. It does not make sense to use them on a mob that hits for 6-8k. There is nothing broke about them, they are just poorly designed for the end game. These spells probably won't get a change, as they have uses pre raiding levels. Just like monks have said FD and invis are worthless on raids, as are our protect spells. That being said, they have uses pre raid levels, like your invis and fd, so to assume a change in a spell simply because it doesn't work in a raid is ludacris. Not everything in this game is focused on raids. SoE knows this, and so do the thousands of casul gamers.</P>

[Dalthenn]

<div></div>Heh, all these opinions and 'you're missing the point' statements, and I bet SOE doesn't even know what to do with 'I want to tank just as guardians do' whinings from other fighters. The way I see it, and I'm no expert, what would be the point of playing a guardian if every other fighter can tank mobs as guardians do? Of course, I wouldn't mind if SOE upped our DPS, and then if they want to make everyone other fighter including mages, once they start whining and b*t*ch*ng like other fighters, capable of tanking. But then again, if SOE's going to make every other fighting class capable of tanking then..what's left for a guardian to do? I'm sure as hell wouldn't want a guardian in my group when I can get DPS and tanking from a monk, berserker or a bruiser. And to the trollers from other fighting boards....why in the heck did you pick that class if, in the end, you wanted to tank!? <span>:smileyindifferent:</span> <div></div><p>Message Edited by Dalthenn on <span class=date_text>04-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:04 AM</span>

[Raahl]

<DIV>Am I missing something?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Where in that post does it say that the tanking gap is less?  To me it sounds like the tanking roles are even more defined.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Smeared wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So much for that BS about DPS being a trade off for taunts...</FONT></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <P></P> <HR> <P>Moorgard wrote:</P> <P>We're making some fundamental changes to the spell system that are in progress right now. We're also determining the relative damage potential of each class and will be adjusting spells and arts to meet that scale.</P> <DIV>With fighters, damage potential is weighed against tanking ability. The latter is defined not just by avoidance or mitigation, but by the kind of buffs and abilities they get. Guardians and Paladins get the most defensive-oriented abilities, both for themselves and their groupmates. As a result, they will have the lowest damage output. At the other end of the scale are Bruisers and Monks, with Berserkers and Shadowknights in the middle.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Keep in mind these differences are not wide chasms. A Guardian who upgrades all his damage arts could probably outdamage a Bruiser that puts little effort into upgrading his abilities. Likewise, a Monk who pays attention to gear and arts can be a better pure tank than an unskilled Paladin. The onus for maximizing the potential of a given character is on the player, because that's the one element of class balance that we have absolutely no control over.</DIV> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I'd have to disagree with you there uglak.  If you read Moorgard's post, he makes four key points.</P> <P>1.)  The spell/CA system is getting an overhaul.  That probably means that the 'Protect' line for Guardians will be working.</P> <P>2.)  SoE uses the word 'tanking' a lot more libarally than we do.  Most people on the boards use it to represent how much damage/time a character takes.  SoE views it as the ability to keep the mob from harming other groupmates.  In essense, the Protect line (when working) will be one reason why Guardians have lower DPS, because it's a defensive oriented buff.  In a hypothetical case, if Monks and Guardians took the same damage in the same period of time, the Monk will have better DPS because the Guardians have the 'Protect' line of defensive buffs.  Obviously, this is not the case, but Moorgard's post says that <STRONG>all </STRONG>abilities are weighed against DPS.  This does include taunts.</P> <P>3.)  If a Guardian can crank out DPS better than a lazy Bruiser, a Guardian off-tank will certainly do more DPS than a Bruiser MT.  With the 'Protect' line being fixed (most likely), Guardians will no longer be a one-trick pony as they will be able to make fine off-tanks as well.</P> <P>4.) The skill of the player will determine that characer's potential because that's the part they can't balance.  He did state they are balancing everything else.  I've seen some pretty terrible Guardians out there (and some great ones too), and I'd certainly think that after this, as a Monk, I'll be a much better tank than them in all situations.</P> <P> </P> <P>I think most people are getting what they want out of this revamp.  Monks will gain tanking ability (because they are closing the gap), and Guardians won't be useless outside of an MT role.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Monk spin is over, but keep it coming.    DPS is weighed against tanking ability, not taunting.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The highest DPS fighters will not tank as well as the highest defensive fighters.   Its a trade off, as it should be.</DIV> <DIV>Anything else would not be balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The higher the defense of the fighter class, the less damage he will do, but the better he will tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty much the same as it is now, except perhaps the DPS and tanking ability of a bruiser and a guardian will be closer.  Dunno about that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, IMO, this indeed does put a end to the "all tanks must tank equally BS" we have been arguing around here for the last 2 months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assuming they get everything working as they intend, only thing I have left to say on this issue is...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Checkmate.</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV>

[Subtlekni]

Guys, we are better than this.  I certainly don't see eye to eye with Gage, but I'm not gonna be one to go out of my way to taunt him.  I certainly don't hate monks, and wish them only the best. But, what I really  want is a clear class purpose, and a promsing future for all guardians. There is room out there for all classes, and this game is still very much a work in progress, I just want us to find our purpose and cling to it like glue.  Everyone likes to be wanted and useful, guardains are no different, but we will not get there by deriding monks, or even one monk in particular. <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>the tanks already fall into line line this as of NOW: considering good gear and such...</P> <P>guard ,  bruiser</P> <P>pal,    monk  </P> <P>zerk, shadknight</P> <P>shadk, zerk </P> <P>monk, pal</P> <P>bruiser, gaurd</P> <P>Considering good armor and adepts, this is it... and the dps ranges is just the same.. Tanking VS. DPS in that list.</P> <P>They are just defining whats already there. Now i know that some people want to throw shadowknights into the mix, but they are getting fixed im sure with the changes, but in full ebon armor, a shadowknight could outtank any brawler equally geared in t5 rare as well even now.</P> <P>and zerkers as well, im sure they will be getting yet another dps nerf.. it sucks but thats the only way to keep them in line with the other classes. Unless they give them Medium armor and make the actually look like berserkers...(snicker)</P> <P>But you see  the point. and thats the way things already stand as of now - with out the two classes that cut in line. All i see them doing is stopping the bleeding between these lines. ( but still leaving it skill dependant, for the MOST part.)</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <DIV>raid mobs that are off limits to brawlers will still be off limits then.... the big 3 of course.. Darather, Venekor, etc... <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>I know of quite a few brawlers who have tanked Venekor, and I do not doubt, for one second, that Jez will tank Darathar.<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <DIV>Pretty much the same as it is now, except perhaps the DPS and tanking ability of a bruiser and a guardian will be closer.  Dunno about that. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>That is all that is required.  If you make the DPS/tanking ability of the two farthest ends of the spectrum closer together, you effectively end all the arguing that's been going on for months.</P> <P>But I'm not commenting on the changes until they are made, in whole, on live.  </P> <P>No reason to yet anyway, but I do admire the maturity shown by certain guardians in my direction.  Its nice knowing I mean so much to you guys <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Oakwood]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I know of quite a few brawlers who have tanked Venekor, and I do not doubt, for one second, that Jez will tank Darathar.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So what the heck have you been ranting about all this time?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree that it is impossible to have any serious discussion on the upcoming changes untill they are live and tested by the player community at large.  Until that happens, and we have hard numbers on the new system, every other post on the issue is speculation at best.</DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakwood wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I know of quite a few brawlers who have tanked Venekor, and I do not doubt, for one second, that Jez will tank Darathar.<BR> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So what the heck have you been ranting about all this time?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I do agree that it is impossible to have any serious discussion on the upcoming changes untill they are live and tested by the player community at large.  Until that happens, and we have hard numbers on the new system, every other post on the issue is speculation at best.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Umm..He has been ranting because *he* hasnt been able to tank them  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR>Umm..He has been ranting because *he* hasnt been able to tank them  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Nope.</P> <P>For one Darathar hasn't been tanked by anyone but a guardian/paly if I'm not mistaken; my comment about Jez is wishful thinking.</P> <P>I've been ranting because the archetypes aren't balanced, its quite easy to see.</P> <P>Hopefully though, like Uglak said, if they lessen the gap between guardian/bruiser dps/tanking then all of this is a moot issue anyway.</P> <P>Have to wait and see what the combat changes bring.<BR></P>

[Oakwood]

<DIV>I know, I keep pointing out that his complaints don't apply to the class, just to his ability to play the class.  Like he said, quite a few brawlers can do what he wants to do.  He just doesnt want to put forth the effort to aquire the skillset needed to do it himself, as those quite a few brawlers have done.  He thinks if guardians can get nerfed as tanks, it will make poorly played monks better tanks by comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What he keeps overlooking is that even if all guards quit playing tomorow, he still would not be a raid tank, because guilds would choose the skilled monks instead of him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I gotta stop feeding this troll.  Why do I encourage him?)</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oakwood wrote:<BR> <DIV>I know, I keep pointing out that his complaints don't apply to the class, just to his ability to play the class.  Like he said, quite a few brawlers can do what he wants to do.  He just doesnt want to put forth the effort to aquire the skillset needed to do it himself, as those quite a few brawlers have done.  He thinks if guardians can get nerfed as tanks, it will make poorly played monks better tanks by comparison.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What he keeps overlooking is that even if all guards quit playing tomorow, he still would not be a raid tank, because guilds would choose the skilled monks instead of him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(I gotta stop feeding this troll.  Why do I encourage him?) <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yup, you are sooooo right.  I wasn't one of the first monks to tank to 50.  I have no idea how to play the class, don't upgrade my gear/spells and I have no idea how to play a tank.</P> <P>Thanks for putting me in my place <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Margen]

<P>Shheessh, I don't always agree with Gage, but whats with the continous personnel attacks.  Kind of inmuture dont' you think.  Gage isn't the only one that thought there is a problem with tanking balance, the world doesn't revolve around just the guardian class, not adressed to all that post here, some of you actually raise valid points.  But quite the "Gage is the cause of all our problems ... <CRY>", its kind of pitiful.  </P> <P>BTW on the post actual subject, I hope my dps is raised up to Bezerkers, have to wait and see.</P> <P>Blackoath 31st Troll Shadow Knight</P>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yup, you are sooooo right.  I wasn't one of the first monks to tank to 50.  I have no idea how to play the class, don't upgrade my gear/spells and I have no idea how to play a tank.</P> <P>Thanks for putting me in my place <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>There you go. Admission is the first step toward recovery.  Keep up the good work, and remember, baby steps  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR><BR> <DIV>There you go. Admission is the first step toward recovery.  Keep up the good work, and remember, baby steps  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>Do you charge for counseling sessions?  Maybe I could save some money if I switched to you.  You have such keen insight.<BR>

[M1A2Tankage]

<P>I just want to know, when SOE is finished Beta testing Everquest2, will we be able to keep our characters?</P> <P>It kind of makes me sick to think another class can even come close to tanking as well as a guardian.  It is like saying a warlock can breeze or give clarity just as well as a coercer or a coercer can nuke like a warlock or a darn wizzard can mezz like a coercer.   If this is the case, why the H%^^ even have a subclass?</P>

[Mig]

Tanking is not a specific spell, it's a group role. It's like comparing mage crowd control. A mezzer will mez an add, whereas a wizard will root it and burn it down. One may take more time, or more power, or more strategy, but in the end the job gets done.What no one has really quantified after months of debate on the boards is what constitutes the "Best" tank.Is it the tank who is the easiest to keep healed, the one that kills the fastest, the one who has the most DPS? What?Agree and come to terms on what the "Best" tank SHOULD be and maybe we can pull out the yardsticks and measure each subclass against this value.

[Nacoa]

<span><blockquote><hr>M1A2Tankage wrote:<p>or a darn wizzard can mezz like a coercer. </p><hr></blockquote>We wizzies can mez. <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Granted, the particulars of the spell make it pretty awkward, and there's only 1 spell, and it's a single target, but we can mez.</span><div></div>

[M1A2Tankage]

<P>Easy,</P> <P>Who can hold aggro best and be able to take the most hits (defined)  If all "tank" Classes stand toe to toe, lvl 50 or insert lvl here, wearing class equivilant gear aggro a mob, any mob, but mostly melee, and do nothing but stand there and take hits till dead, who will survive the longest.  In other words, me as a guardian aggro a kitty (gage) in EF and stand there and do nothing, how long will that kitty take to bring me or the other tank clases down?  </P> <P>Second part to that is aggro holding (protecting the group from being hit).  I think this is the more important factor as we can't have mobs running around killing our casters now can we?</P>

[Nemi]

<DIV>Where my view and that of SoE differ is this:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Definition of a TANK</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>Nemi's</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>Able to stay alive whilst holding aggro</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><U>SoE's</U></STRONG></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Able to take some hits, do some damage, buff the group, buff yourself, and have some fluff.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It would be interesting if we could get some suicidal Guardians and Monks together to run a test:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Each of them buff with self spells only.</DIV> <DIV>2) Find the same level of mob</DIV> <DIV>3) Aggro it, switch off auto attack and see who dies first.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rinse and repeat this 20 or so times.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Skha]

<span><blockquote><hr>Smeared wrote:<div>That I'm not contesting.</div> <div> </div> <div>What I'm saying is that the Guardian won't always be the immediate choice.  In the end, the better player will be the tank, not the chosen class.</div> <div> </div> <div>The top choice for a Raid will be Player X, not Class X, otherwise, the archetype system has failed.</div><hr></blockquote>You are VERY naive. <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><div></div>

[Skha]

double post <div></div><div></div><p>Message Edited by Skharr on <span class=date_text>05-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:44 PM</span>

[Skha]

don't upgrade my gear/spells -------------------------------------- but you really dont upgrade them.... <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P>Monk spin is over, but keep it coming.    DPS is weighed against tanking ability, not taunting.  </P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The highest DPS fighters will not tank as well as the highest defensive fighters.   Its a trade off, as it should be.</DIV> <DIV>Anything else would not be balanced.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The higher the defense of the fighter class, the less damage he will do, but the better he will tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pretty much the same as it is now, except perhaps the DPS and tanking ability of a bruiser and a guardian will be closer.  Dunno about that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, IMO, this indeed does put a end to the "all tanks must tank equally BS" we have been arguing around here for the last 2 months.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Assuming they get everything working as they intend, only thing I have left to say on this issue is...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Checkmate.</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>This is how it always was and always will be, its about time Moorgard posted that and just think about how much stress and headache's they would of saved if they posted that 4 months ago? Or imagine how many Monks would of stayed and contuined to play a Monk while not being percieved by the other Monks who were in this delusional world of DPS for Taunts theroy BS.<BR>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote: <blockquote> <hr> uglak wrote: <p>Monk spin is over, but keep it coming.    DPS is weighed against tanking ability, not taunting.  </p> <div> </div> <div>The highest DPS fighters will not tank as well as the highest defensive fighters.   Its a trade off, as it should be.</div> <div>Anything else would not be balanced.</div> <div> </div> <div>The higher the defense of the fighter class, the less damage he will do, but the better he will tank.</div> <div> </div> <div>Pretty much the same as it is now, except perhaps the DPS and tanking ability of a bruiser and a guardian will be closer.  Dunno about that.</div> <div> </div> <div>But, IMO, this indeed does put a end to the "all tanks must tank equally BS" we have been arguing around here for the last 2 months.</div> <div> </div> <div>Assuming they get everything working as they intend, only thing I have left to say on this issue is...</div> <div> </div> <div>Checkmate.</div> <div>   </div> <hr> </blockquote>This is how it always was and always will be, its about time Moorgard posted that and just think about how much stress and headache's they would of saved if they posted that 4 months ago? Or imagine how many Monks would of stayed and contuined to play a Monk while not being percieved by the other Monks who were in this delusional world of DPS for Taunts theroy BS. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Yep, But I find myself asking myself...why change things if its actually working the way it is suppose to be now.   All I can come up with is that the proposed combat changes have everything to do with the trivialization of encounters(by all tanks/buffs) and nothing to do with changing how the tanks stack against eachother.  If thats the case then fine but gimping one fighter tree simply to make another fighter tree seem less [Removed for Content] is more likely what we will get from SOE =P</span><div></div>