Nice to see someone understands the different roles in EQ2

[Ashgaarl]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Borrowed from Pally Forum:</P> <P></P> <HR> Tucciim wrote:<BR> <DIV>disclaimer: i am addressing raids here, not exp groups.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You are not the almighty god of tanking.  It's not because you aren't a skilled player, you just don't have the proper skillset.  Take a look at your skills.  "give target ac at the cost of yours" "give target X agi and XX skill to parry attacks"  "heal target" "ward target" "grant target bonus to shield block" "give target str,agi,sta,wis" "give target blahblahblah...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you see the trend i am getting at... you are a support class.  i know, i know.. that stings a little bit.  it's ok the pain will go away when your first "raid" mobs drops.  at level 50, with kaisines class skill (i highly recommend), i can give a guardian somewhere in teh neighborhood of 800 AC and 27sta/str... thats a TON of hps and power.  don't forget with adept3 of the heal it does 700+ hps and master 1 of the ward is 700+ hps. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>so when you get to T5 and you have saved up those precious ruby's and rhod's for your adept 3's.. I recommend you not be selfish by going crazy on your damage and melee skills.  I suggest you take one for the team (guild) and get those buff spells up first and stick with your adept1's and app4's of the melee's for a bit. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually - just using this fine piece to poke abit at Gage /grin :smileyvery-happy:<BR></DIV>

[Banditman]

We used a Paladin MT on the Ar'ticae fight a couple nights ago - he did great. We used a Shadowknight MT on the Mjolni fight about a week ago - she did great. While it may be true that Guardians have an advantage, that advantage is not nearly as big as some would have you believe. <div></div>

[Pik'ee]

I don't read that quote as saying Guardians are best Main Tank because blah blah blah... I read it as saying thet Paladins have superb spells that will allow another class to tank even better - be it Guardian, Beserker, another Paladin, whatever. Guardians have a few similar spells to bestow bonuses on AC or avoidance, but nowhere near what the Paladin seems to have. <div></div>

[Gaige]

Yeah I read that post forever ago.

[AsheM]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>Yeah I read that post forever ago. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And did it make sense to you?  At all?</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AsheMan wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>Yeah I read that post forever ago. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>And did it make sense to you?  At all?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Ever read some of your skill descriptions?  The ones that guardians say are "broke" and "useless."  The ones that guardians get offended when you talk about, and start referring to "buff bots?"</P> <P><img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[Oakwood]

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Ever read some of your skill descriptions?  The ones that guardians say are "broke" and "useless."  The ones that guardians get offended when you talk about, and start referring to "buff bots?"<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Gage</P> <P>Please list the specific buffs you are talking about, and what exactly you think they do</P>

[Raahl]

<P>I'm confused, we have buff skills/spells?</P> <P>I have no buffs.  I only have aggro generating skills/spells.  <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  (At least that's what I use them for)  <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P> </P>

[Nemi]

<P><STRONG><U>Guardian Buffs</U></STRONG></P> <P>Level 48: Sentry - Allows the Guardian to sometimes absorb the damage a nearby group member would take.</P> <P>Level 46 Vigilance - Allows the Guardian to shield their ally from attacks</P> <P>Level 40 - Commanding Presence - Group AC/HP/STA buff</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><U>Monk Buffs</U></STRONG></P> <P>Level 46 - Transcedent Vision - Allows the monk to shield their ally from attacks</P> <P>Level 40 - Phins Moutain Haven - Allows monk to shield their ally from attacks and increases the MONKS deflection and agility</P> <P>Level 38 - Sacrifice - Allows the monk to take the damage of an ally</P> <P> </P> <P><STRONG><U>Paladin Buffs</U></STRONG></P> <P>Level 46 - Unwavering Faith - Allows the paladin to shield their ally from attacks and increases the parry skill of shielded ally</P> <P>Level 45 - Gift of Armament - Buffs group AC at the cost of Palading AC</P> <P>Level 40 - Wards ally and increases Pally hate generation</P> <P> </P> <P></P> <HR> <P>There we go, the three defensive fighter subclasses group buffs. They all seem to do the same thing to me.</P>

[Grond]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR> <P></P><STRONG><U></U></STRONG> <HR> <P>There we go, the three defensive fighter subclasses group buffs. They all seem to do the same thing to me.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Only one of those buffs was one of my group buffs.  Why did you just pick 3 random buffs that each class had?  I'm confused.</P> <P> </P> <P>Anyway what does it matter.  Current arguments are worthless.  Guardians are quickly becoming [Removed for Content] on the test server, which means I'm really close to re-rolling a zerker or illusionist.  Our big buffs?  Defense buffs.  I don't know any hard numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if all my buffs raise my defense over the cap.  Especially since all of them stacked (including Fortified Stance) lets me tank a good number of exp things without getting hit.  Our shield buffs don't work correctly, because we take much more damage then we should.  Our damage is sub-par compared to other tanks.  What does this leave us after everyone tanks as well as us?  Nothing - We have absolutely nothing worthwhile to fall back on.  Just kill my sub-class now please.</P> <P> </P> <P>Grondax Ix'Thania of the Shard</P> <P>Officer of Genesis on HIghkeep</P> <P>Level 50 Guardian / Level 50 Woodworker</P>

[Nemi]

<P>Group buffs was perhaps the wrong term.</P> <P>The buffs are those that Guardians/Monks/Paladins can cast on other players. My point is to show that all Fighters have off tanking buffs - even Guardians. I fully expect Guardians to get boosts in other areas, DPS being one. The fact that all your buffs stacked and made you invulnerable shows why SoE is taking these steps. I'm sorry if you played a Guardian believing you were going to be the only MT, that simply isn't the vision of SoE and never has been.</P>

[TheMeatShie]

Ahh yes lets increase the DPS of Guardians, because, after all a Guardian is a ruthless warrior who charges into the fray of battle not caring for himself, but craving the blood of his enemies... oh, wait.... no thats berzerker.  Oh yeah, Guardians are supposed to be the Defensive side of that coin, caring for the party he is with and taking many blows to the head to keep the fragile softskin bodies protected.... So, if like you just established, other tank classes get basically the same group "guarding" abilities, and all we get are the same buffs that are castable on others... Where would the group guarding come in? Dont get me wrong, i dont want an end-all character that will dwarf other tanks, but the problem SOE put live with the entire fighting system is the problem, the sharp cutoff in mob dps when you get a certain point in DEF.  Seriously, if they simply made the Guardian  +DEF buffs into worthwhile (keyword) mitigation line, i think a good portion of the Guardians would be ok with the change. If they simply kept Tower shields Guard only, they could have given mitigation or avoidance bonuses that were worthwhile to that type of guardian only items, and the problem could have been solved like that.  What we are getting now is a broken system, and people look at that broken system and say "since a guardian is the most defensive, making him get to the unbalanced buff cap the easiest, they are unbalanced." I think on that same hand, increasing Guardian DPS, so that when you nerf them to hell they are "balanced" is a joke.  If i dps the same as a berzerker, and defend the same as a berzerker, why would i even be a different class? I think its a fairly safe assertion to say that when most people with any MMORPG background rolled a Guardian, they did not do so to be a dps machine with the exact same damage taking potential as every other plate class, they problably did it because they like to tank.  I know, i know - so did alot of the other fighters.  But when you chose your class, you chose that class for a reason.  I would speculate that alot of monks did not choose the class they play based on being the heaviest meat shield in the game, they chose them for other reasons.  Do i think that means Guardians should be more defensive to the point that they are the only ones able to tank all content? No... but i do think that the Guardian class should at least have a worthwhile edge in situations where being the heaviest, most defensive plate tank in the game is needed. The thing is right now, SOE has actually balanced the tank types more than alot on the boards would like to speculate.  Every fighter sub can tank 99%+ of the content in the game.  (not the period)  With this being said, the problem that arose was the defensive skill problem with the system, and not the guardian class - which hopefully SOE can fix in a way that gets rid of the problem without breaking the balance they started with. I dont see balance as everyone in an archetype having the exact same abilities in different situations.  I see balance as every sub having something they accel in, and /gasp maybe something that can produce a role for that class.  You dont see this alot in EQ2 as much as EQ1 sadly, and after so many years developing EQ1 i would have thought they would have came out with a creative way to give players this.  I mean, seriously, how many times in a group does the tank act as the puller in EQ2?  Compare that to EQ1, when people would pick up certain classes just because of those abilities.  I dont like the idea of "needing" classes like that, but i think if they played on the ability of those roles to produce more abilities for the classes, they wouldnt get as many people that say "we have to be the same on X and Y". What saddens me, is by using the "archetype system" as a marketing point, they have sold to players an idea - the idea that everyone in an archetype can do the same things, even if this wasnt the intended idea by SOE how they put it out gave it that light. As balance will always be grey no matter what you call it - its the difference between classes being unique and fun as opposed to classes having different avatars. <div></div>