Views of class at level 46

[Venomo]

<DIV>hi all, played a guardian up to level 26 in beta and level 46 in live and i have a few views and concerns about our class:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taunt ability: i'd say this is good, using group buffs to help.... however smothering cry - does not affect epic targets? why?? leaves us with 1 more than one mob direct taunt (taunting assault).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our entire 'protect other group member line' of spells - waste of time, especially now the main reason for casting them ( self parry buff ) will be removed as parry is going to be capped... the time and mana it takes to cast these spells means that it is quicker and more efficient to just taunt mobs off other party members as usual. Also even if you do intercept the damage ( vigilance has 5% chance?? ) the fact that your protected target will have poor a/c and avoidance will mean that rather than saving the party, you will actually be dead due to the huge amount of damage you take.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Introduction of the Parry Cap: will our skills that had parry increases be upped accordingly? most of these skills only ever got used for the parry buff as they are usually from the above line of spells...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the Guardian Class: are we just low damage output beserker? Now this is not a 'nerf zerkers 4 teh win!1!!' thread but i think the guardian call needs to be looked at to decide what deferrentiates us as a class. The guardian class has probably had one of the least, if not the least amount of changes since i started playing one in beta. The biggest change in 72 levels as a guardian imo? increased buff duration ( class wide increase )...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian were initally designed as THE Vanguard plate wearing tank of Qeynos, what differentited our class was the ability to wear vanguard armour and use tower shields. This was changed for some reason so that clerics and beserkers could use vanguard and beserkers could use tower shields. And now with the new shield changes coming in tower shields have a 1% better chance of blocking over kite shields? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I for one gave up the higher damage output of a beserker to have the increased 'meat shield' ability, this is definately not the case. I have grouped with a very well played beserker in my guild for a lot of levels, with comparable gear and he is a FAR better main tank than me, his gets hit a lot less and when he does get hit its for around the same damage that i do. He can hold aggro easier due to high high dps, without having to concentrate on the group-buffing fiasco that guardians have to use to maintain group aggro a lot of the time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians decided to do less damage so we could be better at soaking up damage, this is just not the case at present. Mitigation against special attacks especially is appalling, I've had grey 'normal' group mobs 7 levels below me hit me for over 1000, when you are MT in a group ( which i am 90%) of the time avoidance is much more important than mitigation as you're usually fighting ^^ mobs that are firing off specials conatanly, and with these new changes coming that heavy armour wearers avoid 30% less and parry being capped it just means we are going to get hit a whole lot more...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please look at our class, look at our skills and please look at making us a class that feels individual from the others</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>cheers</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ven</DIV><p>Message Edited by Venomous on <span class=date_text>04-14-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:31 AM</span>

[Rpgplay]

<P>First of all good post.</P> <DIV>"Guardian were initally designed as THE Vanguard plate wearing tank of Qeynos, what differentited our class was the ability to wear vanguard armour and use tower shields. This was changed for some reason so that clerics and beserkers could use vanguard and beserkers could use tower shields. And now with the new shield changes coming in tower shields have a 1% better chance of blocking over kite shields? "</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN> <P><SPAN>I was wondering why they changed that myself, Vanguard had the same stats as the normal armor before launch so no def upgrade, it was just for looks, to distinguish the guardian from the other fighters. Berserkers shouldn’t get tower shield ability since they are high dps fighters. The 1% difference is kind of a slap in our face, unless it’s a typo.</SPAN></P></SPAN></DIV>

[Kryog]

Big thing for me in my 42.7 levels has been my severe lack of ability to manage large groups of mobs.   I have 3 taunts I use on solo mobs (slate's, vengeful, suppress) and only 1 that I can use on groups (cry).  Meanwhile my berserker buddy has group taunts and an emmense amount of group damage he can do.   Even with the group buff Call line (only one of those too) I am still having a hard time keeping group aggro.   And it's not for lack of trying.    Did I mention our AOE damage capabilities are laughable? I can't really say I can compare too much else right now because the berserker in my guild is 4 levels above me, which presumably are making the biggest difference.   But once we're both 50th, if he's still able to out taunt me, then I expect us to be retooled or something.   I don't mind anyone out damaging me, but I do mind it when I can't keep taunt even though I'm using every ability in my book to keep it. <div></div>

[Uumuuanu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Venomous wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Please look at our class, look at our skills and please look at making us a class that feels individual from the others</DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Venomous, 5 stars-</P> <P>Honestly though I have a feeling that we will not be seeing much of a change until the next major expansion comes out.   I know I have only played 42 levels of it at this point, but I knew from the beginning that something was wrong.  Why you ask.  Well I have a 23 Inquisitor that out tanks guardians of his level.   He can get aggro from even the best of them when he wants, lock aggro in so well with the healing/aggro cycle that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get the aggro off of him until he is dead or the mob is dead.  I can't do that as a guardian.   Sometimes using every buff, taunt and every single special attack I still cant get aggro off of some healers and many warlocks.</P> <P>I have been in groups where I was MT and DPS.   When I want to sure I can generate alot of DPS, for all of one mob until my power goes dry.  As MT, I long ago gave up trying to be DPS unless it was a small group where I had to be.  Why, simply because after 42 levels I still dont have anything that makes for decent DPS.  My best attack right now is retaliate which even fully buffed I have gotten a 524 hit.   I see monks do that all the time, I see berserkers go into a rage (bloodlust if I remember right) and pull aggro off me like I never taunted.  I have warlocks that can pull aggro and I have to use things like protect to hope I can keep him alive till the mob is dead simply because I cant get aggro back even after he stops casting. Luckily most realize this and just keep nuking so the mob dies sooner.</P> <P>I even went as far as choosing a 2nd group/AE aggro (solexa) abilty to try to get an advantage.  Hasnt really helped when it comes to life or death.</P> <P>On the adverse side of things, when I am soloing I can take out groups of greens and blues and barely be scratched simply because they aren't hitting me unless they use magic.  The other day a caster stopped and watched me in Feerott.   I was standing in the middle of the path and at the time had a total of 11 green mobs on me.  I sat there and whacked away at them and finally dropped every one of them, never going below 85% hp.  I think for a few minutes he wanted to see if I would die or run.  After I was done I honestly thing he thought either I was lucky, overpowered, or a hacker as his leaving comment was '*$%#&! wished I could do that'.   I have had numerous events like that where even in a group, it seemed I was out of power long before the healers were.   </P> <P>I do feel that part of our skills are off kilter somehow, but not necessarily over powered.  Its hard to say, we are supposed to take damage but  I would prefer it to be more of the 'BB hitting a concrete wall' then what it appears to be currently which is 'the coyotes missle chasing the road runner'.   If there is a mob there let him hit me, but I want him to hurt his fist when he does.  I don't know that I personally like the idea of dancing around them and as one signature says - doing backflips in 500lbs of armor.</P> <P>I would expect that in the next 'super fix' we will see some of these defensive skills nerfed.  Hopefully guardians arent the only ones that have this happen.  If we are,  guardians will simply die off to thier superior DPS cousins the berserkers.  I would like to see our abilites to defend and avoid stay where they are and get an increased taunt set across the board for single target, group and epic level mobs.  It would be nice if some of our AE attacks had more of an impact, even if only to add hate/threat to us as a taunt.   I dont want to be able to out AE a warlock, but I dont want to have to compete with him for aggro.</P> <P>In the next expansion I would like to see new superior defensive buffs as we level up.  Perhaps things like defending the entire group from things like barrage or direction AE attacks.  As we level up, we should get a decent (not over powered) increase in HP over any other class.  5 or 10% isnt going to be over powering but it seems that if we are 'guardians' we should be able to take damage like no other.   Adding a new armor class is a bit late, but perhaps there would be types of armor that no other class could wear, maybe even ones that had a reduction in avoidance but vast increases in mitigation.   </P> <P>Over all I see that guardians are honestly lacking in something that makes us special, just like the OP said.  SK get harmtouch and dots.  Paladins get heals and buffs. Berserkers get bloodlust and unmatched tank DPS.  Monks and bruisers well,  they dance around mobs avoiding damage like some sort of a matrix character.   </P> <P>Guardians, what do we do,  well, we are there struggling to hurt the mobs, struggling to keep aggro and struggling to make out class stick out from the others as a key role in the game.   I don't want to be superman,  I want to be a respected class that has a unique purpose.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Wus]

<P>Very nice post. I've been through 35 levels of guardian. Your post is right on as far as I'm concerned. Some additional thoughts:</P> <P>  It seems to me that our "guarding" buffs really don't guard that well. Safeguard, Intervene, Sentinel, Allay, and other intercept buffs really are not very effective. Would be nice if we could actually protect groupmates if we lost aggro.</P> <P>  Never surrender doesn't effect the avoidance of another groupmate at least in a way that can be read on the stat page of the toon receiving the buff. There are numerous others that i'm missing, but you get the point.</P>

[Zodi]

<P>Awesome Post!! PPL</P> <P>I would like to add somethign to this discussion:</P> <P>1) As low level guardian who have tried many different race/guild combos such as troll/guardian, human/guardian, ogre/guardian and wood elf/guardian. I have notice the small advantages and disadvantages of each race guild combo. What I am worried about is that now I have heard the news about a possible parry and defense buff cap. I dont know all the detail about this changes, but I think it is crazy trying to cap a defense skill and parry skill. Here are my questions to ensure I understand this well?</P> <UL> <LI>Will a race that does not get the defense skill trait will endup capping at the same level of defense that one that gets it. This is of course after all the battle buff have been added?</LI> <LI>I have heard that vanguard has the same mitigation value and heavy armor. Also I heard that Berserkers and INquisitors can use it? </LI> <LI>In my opinion a berserker is DPS machine. He disregards his personal safety in his madness to slay enemies. I think it absolutely unrational for them to use a shield. In a roleplaying point of view, if I were a berserker and I see someone with a shield I will laugh. I will tell him something like: "Why do u hide behind a piece of metal. Dont be a coward, fight to the death. Be a true warrior!!"</LI> <LI>I have also notice how hard is to keep aggro as Guardian when grouping with serkers and bruisers. No matter what I do it is almost impossible to gain it once I lost it. This is even with Adept 3 taunts and partying with give or take +or- 1 level toons.</LI></UL> <P> </P> <P>My post in anyway is to degrade a guardian or try to get the bruisers  and serkers downgraded. What I am trying to express is that I see a noticible diference on damage between guardians and bruisers, but I dont see any diference in avoididng damage when I go toe to toe with them,</P> <P>Please help me understand this or correct me if I am wrong</P> <P> </P> <P>Avathos-Thanos-Guardians-level 30</P> <P> </P>

[Jb]

<P>Good post venomous.</P> <P> </P> <P>Zodian, the reason berserkers use a shield is because of game mechanics. Auto attack damage comes to maybe 30% of overall dps. With a one handed weapon you do maybe 20-30% less dps than a 2hander or dual wield. That's less than 10% dps loss overall (30% of 30%), and the ability to block with the shield and the extra mitigation far offsets that loss while the zerker is mt, especially in a full group (assuming the healer doesnt fight, 10% / 5 members maybe a 2% dps loss to the group). As usual computer games see little to no roleplaying.</P>

[Zodi]

<P>Ah thanks for the information. </P> <P> </P>