Procs, bring me all your parses.

[TheMeatShie]

As everyone knows each proc has a % chance it goes off.  I hear alot say that faster weapons means more procs, while i hear others saying that although it is giving you a % chance to proc it is really based on an average procs per minute system like everquest 1 was.  Do proc rates have a modifier, ie dexterity in eq1?  If it were actually a chance per hit scenario then id imagine agility would be beneficial, as it increases your chance to hit, but in eq1 procs could go off if hit didnt land too so.. I created this post so that i could possibly get guardians to dump parses of how often a weapon setup procs - long parses that show the average over time would be alot more beneficial than short term parses, as with anything random procs get streaky.  If you could possibly list the stats you had while the parse was done that would be helpful (copy/paste from your eq2players is quick). I think learning the nature of procs is something that could highly benefit the Guardian class, so any help on this topic would be appreciated. <div></div>

[Nemi]

From Lockeye:<hr>Actual proc rates on weapons depend on a ratio of the delay of the weapon and the displayed chance to proc. The actual chance to proc is: (Weapon Delay / 3.0 Delay ) * Proc Percentage. You can think of every procing weapon has having its proc percent chance to trigger every 3 seconds. That way, a longsword and a dagger will proc the same amount over time, even though a dagger may swing faster and yield a smaller proc chance per hit.===========================Jared SweattEverQuest II Items Designer <hr>Thread can be found here:http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=items&message.id=30217#M30217

[TheMeatShie]

Ty just what i was looking for <div></div>

[Banditman]

To clarify, the answer to the initial question is that in fact procs are based on a per time thing.  Swinging more often does NOT increase your proc damage.  Fast weapon, slow weapon, whatever.  It doesn't matter.  Your weapon will proc, over time, at a set rate.  The higher the percentage, the more often your weapon will proc, regardless of it's delay. Illustration using formula provided by the Dev, and bogus numbers to make it easy and obvious: Axe:  6 second delay, 10% proc chance. Dagger:  1 second delay, 5% proc chance. Conventional wisdom would say that the dagger would proc a LOT more often than the axe simply because you have 6 chances to proc for every 1 chance with the axe.  Not so. Axe:  6 delay / 3 delay x 10% = 20% chance to proc per SWING. Dagger:  1 delay / 3 delay x 5% = 1.67% chance to proc per SWING. Over the course of 1 minute: Axe:  10 Swings . . . 2 procs. Dagger:  60 swings . . . 1 proc. From this, you'd probably be able to figure the total potential DPS of the weapon for comparison.  You'd need to get the average proc damage for yourself then fill in: Avg Damage / Delay + { ( [ delay / 3 ] x proc rate ) x ( 1 / delay ) x avg proc damage } = Total Potential DPS Complete Example: An Axe:  Damage 10 - 20, delay 2 seconds, Proc 40 - 60, 10% chance. Avg Damage = 15, Avg Proc Damage = 50. Do the formula: 15 / 2 + { ( [ 2 / 3 ] x .1 ) x ( 1 / 2 ) x 50 } = 9.5 Potential DPS. The reason we have to call this potential DPS is because we cannot account for hits and misses. <div></div>

[Belce]

<P>The thing though, is that each type of proc has an equal chance to go off regardless of weapon speed and is then modified by weapon speed.  The slow axe has a proc rate 5% and so does the fast dagger. The modification for the proc rate is based on an average weapon speed of 3.  So each weapon should have a 5% proc rate for its effect which is modified by its delay compared to a speed of 3.  </P> <P>Overall a fast weapon should have the same proc rate as a slow weapon for the same proc rate.  What is better though over a minute, 10, 10% chances or 60, 1.67% chances?  The fast weapon with misses will I think do better for a proc, its misses are a less substantial loss than the axe missing.  Another consideration is haste in this equation, does the proc rate tie itself to the base weapon speed before haste or does it float with actual weapon delay after haste buffs?  If it is tied to weapon speed, then the slow weapon will benefit more from haste for procs, if it floats, then it doesn't make a difference to the rate, a 50% haste to the 6 second delay axe results in a 5% chance per hit with float or a 3 delay weapon with a 10% proc rate if it doesn't. </P>

[TheMeatShie]

Technically speaking though by this formula wouldnt you gain less procs in reality with a fast weapon? I mean if you stand there swinging them overall on average youd have the same, but with timers on combat arts and such your missing alot of swings with a faster weapon...  if you miss 1/4th of your swings and its just a flat out % chance to proc based on the delay of your weapon, your missing 1/4th of your procs? <div></div>

[Nemi]

Yep, if you don't swing you don't have a chance of proccing. That seems logical to me.

[-Aonein-]

<P>From the way im reading it and from what ive read in the acual thread is, every 3 seconds you have a chance for the proc to fire, the chance you have is based on weapon speed. Slower the weapon = more chance to proc, faster weapon = less chance to proc, but over time, they end up being even. Seeing as its a chance every 3 seconds to proc, then divide 3 into 60seconds and you get a possible 20 procs a minute <STRONG><U>IF</U></STRONG> you were to succesfully proc every 3 seconds, which is highly impossible. Now this would be reguardless of which weapon you would be using, wouldnt matter if you were using a 2 hand axe or a dual weild wep, it would still equal 20 total procs per minute cause its based of 3 seconds.</P> <P>Only way you could get more procs per minute is to Dual Weild 2 weps with procs on both weps, this way you are getting a possible 40 procs per minute <STRONG><U>IF</U></STRONG> it was to succesfully fire every 3 seconds which you probally have no chance in ever happening, EVER. Pretty much the same as getting 20 procs a min, impossible. </P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[ugl]

<P>Wrong thread argh</P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:47 AM</span>

[Nemi]

Its not a chance to proc every 3 seconds. Its a chance to proc every time your weapon swings, however, your chance to proc as reported on the weapon (5%, 8%, 12% etc) is normalised over 3 seconds.If you have:Dagger 1.5 delay 4% proc rate2H Sword 3.0 delay 4% proc rateYou will have over 60 seconds:Dagger : Swings 40 times with a 2% chance each swing (80% chance of a proc in a minute)2Hsword : Swings 20 times with a 4% chance each swing (80% chance of a proc in a minute)So in effect the chance is normalised.

[Banditman]

Swing speed (delay) is meaningless.  The only meaningful number is the reported chance to proc.  You get that chance distributed over time so long as you are swinging.  Haste has no effect since all it does is reduce your delay, which is already meaningless. <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>Swing speed (delay) is meaningless.  The only meaningful number is the reported chance to proc.  You get that chance distributed over time so long as you are swinging.  Haste has no effect since all it does is reduce your delay, which is already meaningless.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Exactally, Delay is only used to determine the percentage you can proc every 3 seconds, nothing else. While you are in, You start fighting mode, and are in range, its based of every 3 seconds you have X% chances at procing. If you miss, you get another chance in 3 seconds, which is why there is no difference between 2 hand, 1 hand and a dual weild wep, you just have a higher chance at procing every 3 seconds with a slower wep to compensate for the slower atk delay.</P> <P>So to keep it simple, there is no difference, unless your dual weilding weps with procs.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:21 AM</span>

[Banditman]

Just to clarify - you can actually MISS your target and still get the proc effect.  It does not require you to actually make contact with the mob, only be swinging. <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Yep thats why i said you gotta be in range. :smileywink:</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[TheMeatShie]

My point was, with fast weapons, you miss swings due to the cast timers on combat arts. Is the system really as simple as to base the % chance to proc off of the weapons delay, then just apply that % chance of a proc every swing, or is it more complex to where it figures that chance percent based on delay, but also on previous recent procs? Ie you have a slow weapon, so it has a really high proc rate.  in between swings you can use combat arts and it does not interrupt an attack round, because the delay on the weapon is so slow. vs You use a quick weapon, and when you use combat arts many times you are losing swings, because you are using a combat art at a time that would normally be a swing.  If its based on delay of weapon, and does not factor in combat arts, even though the proc rate would be the same, you wouldnt gain as many procs.<div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Yes Meat you are correct, using combat arts stops the swinging and as a result stops the chances of procing, but all combat arts pause any DPS what so ever unless its a DoT effect.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[TheMeatShie]

Let me make sure i am taking what you are saying the right way... i swing, within two seconds i would swing again, but i cast a 3 second combat art.  With one second left on the CA cast timer my swing would normally go off, but instead it just "pauses" and goes off at the end of that CA, as opposed to totally losing that swing and it starting over? This is really how i think it *should* be, trying to make sure thats what your saying it *is* <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<P>I dont think it pauses it, when a CA ends, it probally just restarts. Procs are instant, and you have a chance to proc every 3 seconds, if you cast a CA at the 2 second mark, because it has interupted your swinging, its more then likely reset the 3 second timer to start all over again. Think of it like a CA being interupted.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span>

[Nemi]

You don't have a chance to proc every 3 seconds.You have a chance to proc EVERY swing of your weapon. If you're hasted to 1 second swings, you have a chance to proc every 1 second, but the chance remains constant.

[TheMeatShie]

<div></div>You have a % chance to proc every swing, yes, not every 3 seconds, the 3 seconds is default delay the display value % of procs shows, ie 5% proc rate showing on a weapon means 5% every 3 seconds... What i am saying, is if this formula is really this crude, then using fast weapons you are losing procs... If a 4 second delay and a 1 second delay are modified that if you swing them over and over, the 60 second one may proc 100% of the swings, while the 1second one has a 1/4 chance.  While i understand that applies a % chance to each swing of a weapon, adding the same chance over time to the slower weapon, it is not taking into consideration combat arts. If i swing the 4 second delay, then cast a 3 second combat art, when the CA is done casting after 1 second it swings again.  If i swing the 1 second weapon then cast the same 3 second CA, i just lost out on 3 swings....  Hence if the formula is as crude as to apply a proc rate value based on the delay of the weapon, a faster weapon loses more swings from CA's, therefore it swings less comparatively to the slower weapon... Now even slow weapons can miss swings, its all about timing, but if you time them like knights did with spells alot in eq1 (ie wait for swing THEN start CA) you will be losing alot less swings with a long delay swing. This could all be BS if the formula given was more crude than the actual system, ie maybe the proc rate is modified by missed swings or previous proc evaluations of true/false, and they gave out that formula for lamens terms to all would understand it, but i doubt it... <div></div><p>Message Edited by TheMeatShield on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:33 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote:<BR>You don't have a chance to proc every 3 seconds.<BR><BR>You have a chance to proc EVERY swing of your weapon. If you're hasted to 1 second swings, you have a chance to proc every 1 second, but the chance remains constant.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Its based off 3 seconds Nemi.

[Nemi]

<blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote: <P>Procs are instant, and you have a chance to proc every 3 seconds, if you cast a CA at the 2 second mark, because it has interupted your swinging, its more then likely reset the 3 second timer to start all over again. </P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:34 PM</span><hr></blockquote>I was correcting you there. Chance to proc is on ever swing. However, the displayed chance to proc is normalised over 3 seconds. Basically, Delay < 3 seconds, less chance to proc per swingDelay > 3 seconds, more chance to proc per swingRelative to the displayed %

[Belce]

While we do stop swinging for combat arts, other than buffs, our combat arts are pretty quick to go off.  Three seconds is what our slow buffs use for a timer, our damage combat arts are much faster, but they tend to slow down a bit as we get higher lvl ones. 

[Sarelin-SeisB]

<P>You can also Proc on Combat Arts. I've never seen a proc on a miss. The text of the procs even states "on a successful hit".</P> <P>I've hit 4 mobs with Topple and actually had 5 Procs with a 2h-er. I'll let you work out how.</P> <P> </P>

[Banditman]

Yes, you are still "counting down" to your next swing while a CA is being cast.  This is easiest to see with a fast weapon(s) and a fairly long cast CA. You will see your CA land (or not) followed immediately by your melee swing(s).    This is why 2H weapons are superior to DW for DPS in most cases. <div></div>