Pristine cedar tower vs. sbs

[ugl]

<DIV>I just got the shiny brass shield tonight, and its a kite shield, not a buckler.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well, with it compared to my pristine cedar  I gain 12 more str,  over 100 more hitpoints. The ac on the SBS says something like 750 while the AC on the cedar like 850..  Mitigation doesnt change with the shield, but avoidence favors the SBS over the cedar.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Conventional wisdom around here seemed be tower shields are great then kite shields, and the pristine cader is one of the best tower shields...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Am I missing something here? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>EDITED> I am wrong here, the cedar gives .6% avidence over the SBS.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:57 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>I have been thinking the exact same thing Uglak, has me boggled also.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Morbio]

The one piece of this puzzle that I'm not sure is displayed anywhere is the Deflection Bonus of the Shield.  Mitigation and avoidance are displayed but Deflection is not.  Deflection being the chance to block an attack.   My understanding of the Deflection Bonus is that it is based on the size of the shield.  Therefore the Cedar Tower shield has a greater chance to block then the SBS since it is a Kite Shield.  Since we have no idea what the Deflection bonus is, right?, you can't judge whether the 12str, 100hitpoints and .6%+ avoidance is worth the sacrifice in Deflection. 

[ugl]

<P>The sbs also has a stun proc %5....</P> <P>I thought the block rate was supposed to be shown in the avoidance?   Would seem like the tower shield, since is has more AC , would have given more avoidence.   </P> <P>I dunno, I cannot believe SOE went with this fugged up rocket science scheme instead of going with just AC, like every fantasy based game since D&D.   I am not sure what they gain by this system.   They have mitigation, avoidence, a "invisible" shield block rate, Color codes, Color of mob your fighting, blah blah blah...</P> <P>Anyone should be able to look at a piece of armor or a shield and KNOW which is better...    They have revamped their "ac system" several times already, and judging from their posts I do not even think they understand it.</P> <P>Was hoping someone could shed some light on the subject as to why the cedar tower is supposed to be better then the kite shield.    From looking at the character when you swap the shields out, the SBS looks much better.  </P> <p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>04-07-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:33 AM</span>

[Lithium0]

<P>Can the cedar tower shield be imbued ? </P> <P>If so anyone able to link the stats plz</P> <P> </P> <P>~Scamp~</P> <P> </P>

[Dalthenn]

I think it can, as long as you have not attuned it. <div></div>

[Aenae]

<P>pristine imbued cedar tower shield</P> <P>+9 INT</P> <P>+11 WIS</P> <P>+34 Health</P> <P>+34 Power</P> <P>840 Shield Factor (L50)</P> <P>Sanguine Imbued:  When struck, 5% chance to inflict 108 dmg on the attacker.  </P> <P> </P> <P>Note the 108 scales with level, I am currently 47 so I expect it to rise a bit more.</P> <P> </P> <P>- Manii Names</P>

[RafaelSmith]

A somewhat related question......is Kite Shield factor = Tower shield factor...  i.e is a Tower shield with factor 500 better than a Kite shield with factor 500? <div></div>

[Morbio]

<P>As far as I know, if you have a Tower Shield and a Kite Shield with equal stats, AC and ability score bonuses, the Tower Shield is the better of the two because it offers a greater Deflection Bonus (Chance to Block) then the Kite Shield. Currently the Deflection bonus is not displayed and is not factored into the Mitigation or Avoidance numbers that are displayed. That's kind of the dilemma we find ourselves in here. We can't make an informed decision as to whether the SBS or the Cedar Tower is better since we don't have all the facts in front of us. </P>

[lostsandman]

<P>may be i am talking crap but from what here it goes</P> <P> </P> <P>say you a take a normal  t5 prestine cedar Tower shield and a  prestine cedar T5 kite shield, then the tower shiled version will have  more AC say 100. There is no way you can make a t5 prestine cedar kite shiled with the same or greater ac as tower shield.</P> <P> </P> <P>So my understanding was that, the reason for the more AC of the tower shield is that you have more chance to block with the tower shield. So there is no hidden block/defelection factor as such but its already built into the ac value.</P> <P> </P> <P>But say you get some Fabled Kite shield with a raid mobs or something. Lets assume it has same AC as a T5 Tower shield then my understanding was that, this kite shiled is same as that t5 tower shield, all thing remain equal.</P> <P> </P> <P>So coming back to the SBS, it has less AC than the tower shield (100) but it gives you more HP and power (str) so i was thinking of using that than the T5 cedar . </P> <P>In other words you will block less often with SBS but i am guessing that the 100hp will offset this . </P> <P>Anyway, t5 cedar cost around 1p - 1.5p on my server and SBS cost 0p <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </P> <P> </P> <P>Even if i get a cedar i would have made a t5 cedar short bow to get the 11ag (13ag?)  and 8 str form it .......</P> <P> </P> <P>But as i said i have no idea what i am talking about it.....</P>

[ugl]

<DIV>edited</DIV><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:58 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Morbious wrote:<BR> <P>As far as I know, if you have a Tower Shield and a Kite Shield with equal stats, AC and ability score bonuses, the Tower Shield is the better of the two because it offers a greater Deflection Bonus (Chance to Block) then the Kite Shield. Currently the Deflection bonus is not displayed and is not factored into the Mitigation or Avoidance numbers that are displayed. That's kind of the dilemma we find ourselves in here. We can't make an informed decision as to whether the SBS or the Cedar Tower is better since we don't have all the facts in front of us. </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Deflection is a Brawlers Block skill. Warrior / Crusaders dont get Deflection, and Brawlers dont get Block. Brawlers are the only class in the game to get a shown percentage in Deflection, but they get 0.0% in Block.</P> <P>Easiest way to test if a 500 Shield Factor on a Kite Shield is the same as 500 on a Tower Shield, is to get 2 with the same Shield Factor and Equip them and watch your Block percentage, its about the only way to work it out, or parse them.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 47th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[ugl]

<P>Man, I hate having to rely on "invisible" stuff   to make decisions on equipment.</P> <P>I really wish they would change their defense system ...  ugh..</P> <P>A player shouldnt have to run a third party program to know which is the better item...   ugh...</P> <P>Even if the tower does have a higher "invisible block rate", I am still not sure how to weight that with the avoidence, hitpoints and proc on the SBS...</P> <P>Not sure why they chose such a confusing defense system for this game.</P>

[Kirell]

<P>I guess it bugs me that since all of the worthwhile equipment in the game is attuneable, you have to have already wasted the money or crafting time (depending on item/your own skills) to even see the 'invisible' effects, whether you parse it or simply equip it.  I mean you see nothing the item does for you until you attune it, so with the unknown effects of these two shields for instance you have to throw money away to judge them against each other.</P> <P>So, I have to agree that a better system needs to be implemented on armor and especially shields, to determine which item is better than another.  Even at my level (33 now), it is getting a touch expensive to throw away money on an item only to find out that when you equip it, it isn't as good or isn't any better than what you have equipped already - even though it looked better in the 'examine' stats...</P> <P>Another example of this is damage ratings on weapons.  I had a feysteel [Removed for Content] sword for a while that had a lower damage rating than equivalent pristine feyiron 2-handers, but when you looked at the stat boosts, it gave more strength (more damage) than the crafted and had a higher average damage per swing.  So, more strength and a higher damage range equates to more damage, therefore this weapon did more damage than many weapons with higher damage ratings...  Go figure <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>Kallus, Berserker, Innothule Server</P>

[CherobylJ]

I suspect the only way to really answer this is for someone to parse multiple fights against a test dummy and record the block percentage with both shields (number of blocks per minute with shields).  Probably have to run 4-5 fights with each shield against the same solo target.

[Kairo]

<P>There is no invisible factor in the type of shield you use, it's all expressed in the Shield Factor value.</P> <P>This means that to know which shield is better (from a "protection" standpoint) all you have to do is to look at its Shield Factor.</P> <P>Shield Factor is part of the Avoidance value, which is composed of: Base, Block, Parry, Deflection. Shield Factor does NOT influence the Mitigation value.</P> <P>To clarify, let's see some numbers, i'm a lvl 50 Guardian, unbuffed values:</P> <P><U>Without a shield on:</U></P> <P>Avoidance: <STRONG>50.5%</STRONG> </P> <P>Base: 32.7%<BR>Block: 0.0%<BR>Parry: 26.4%<BR>Deflection: 0.0%</P> <P><BR><U>With a Pristine Conditioned Cedar Shield on (Shiled Factor: 840 at lvl50):</U></P> <P>Avoidance: <STRONG>58.8%</STRONG></P> <P>Base: 32.7%<BR>Block: 16.8%<BR>Parry: 26.4%<BR>Deflection: 0.0%</P> <DIV>As you can see the only value influenced by the Shield Factor is the Block percentage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, back to the original question, since a shield with a SF of 840 gives me an added 8.3% Avoidance i'd say a shield with a 750 SF wont be much worse, if you consider the stats on the SBS are much better i would probably use the SBS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too bad i finished the SBS a long time ago so i only have the crappy buckler version....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=133771102" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Kairoth Zzoguardi</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Officer of <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=146102" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Orcus Dei Ordo</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kairoth wrote:<BR> <P>There is no invisible factor in the type of shield you use, it's all expressed in the Shield Factor value.</P> <P>This means that to know which shield is better (from a "protection" standpoint) all you have to do is to look at its Shield Factor.</P> <P>Shield Factor is part of the Avoidance value, which is composed of: Base, Block, Parry, Deflection. Shield Factor does NOT influence the Mitigation value.</P> <P>To clarify, let's see some numbers, i'm a lvl 50 Guardian, unbuffed values:</P> <P><U>Without a shield on:</U></P> <P>Avoidance: <STRONG>50.5%</STRONG> </P> <P>Base: 32.7%<BR>Block: 0.0%<BR>Parry: 26.4%<BR>Deflection: 0.0%</P> <P><BR><U>With a Pristine Conditioned Cedar Shield on (Shiled Factor: 840 at lvl50):</U></P> <P>Avoidance: <STRONG>58.8%</STRONG></P> <P>Base: 32.7%<BR>Block: 16.8%<BR>Parry: 26.4%<BR>Deflection: 0.0%</P> <DIV>As you can see the only value influenced by the Shield Factor is the Block percentage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, back to the original question, since a shield with a SF of 840 gives me an added 8.3% Avoidance i'd say a shield with a 750 SF wont be much worse, if you consider the stats on the SBS are much better i would probably use the SBS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too bad i finished the SBS a long time ago so i only have the crappy buckler version....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=133771102" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Kairoth Zzoguardi</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Officer of <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=146102" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Orcus Dei Ordo</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Edited> makes perfect sense.  I had messed up on the avoidence.  The CEDAR GIVES .6% avoidence over the SBS </P><p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>04-09-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 AM</span>

[Kairo]

<DIV>From the persona window hold the mouse on "Avoidance" to see the Base/Parry/Block/Deflection values.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Do you own both the shields? Then can you please tell us what are those different values with the Pristine Cedar on and with SBS on?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If the total Avoidance with the SBS is .6% higher even if this shield have a lower shield factor, there must be something missing! :smileysurprised:</DIV>

[ugl]

<P>Ahh didnt know that.</P> <P> </P> <P>Yea, I got both shields on me.   I cant play till tonight.   Ill write down all the numbers without shield, and with each shield, as well as stats and post them here  tommorow morning or later tonight.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Shizzirri]

<DIV>Aegis of Alclaricity (spelling) > both of those just getting one to drop is the problem</DIV>

[English Da Gua]

<DIV>  Not really, why would you want more haste if you are the MT? More riposites = bad thing.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  And, no real need to use a shield in a group if your other gear is good, and the rare times you do need one, a cedar imbued would do just fine.</DIV>

[Corv]

<div></div><span><blockquote><hr>uglak wrote: <p>The ac value  (this is what your calling the shield factor value?) on the SBS is around 100 less then the cedar shield.</p> <p>So why is the avoidence .6% more with the SBS?  </p><div></div><hr></blockquote> I agree.  Something is definately fishy here.  Personally, I have my suspicions that the shield factor displayed is just a text description (like the name of an item) and is not directly tied to how the shield actually functions.  It should be representative, but in this case someone F'd up and didn't calculate it correctly, so the SBS is functioning better than it's description would indicate.  Since different versions of the SBS are awarded depending on class, I suspect that guardians may be awarded a tower version of the SBS that still has the kite version's description by mistake.   I'd be curious to hear from zerkers and other classes normally limited to kite shields to see how much avoidance their SBS's give, since if I'm right, it might not be the same.  (We'd need both the characters level and ammount their avoidance goes up when equipping the SBS in their shield slot from when they have nothing equiped there)  I could be completely wrong, but at least my wild theory is testable.  <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> </span><div></div><p>Message Edited by Corvan on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 PM</span>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Corvan wrote:<BR> <SPAN><BR>I'd be curious to hear from zerkers and other classes normally limited to kite shields to see how much avoidance their SBS's give, since if I'm right, it might not be the same.  </SPAN> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Sligt clarification...Bers can use Tower shields</DIV>

[ugl]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kairoth wrote:<BR> <P>There is no invisible factor in the type of shield you use, it's all expressed in the Shield Factor value.</P> <P>This means that to know which shield is better (from a "protection" standpoint) all you have to do is to look at its Shield Factor.</P> <P>Shield Factor is part of the Avoidance value, which is composed of: Base, Block, Parry, Deflection. Shield Factor does NOT influence the Mitigation value.</P> <P>To clarify, let's see some numbers, i'm a lvl 50 Guardian, unbuffed values:</P> <P><U>Without a shield on:</U></P> <P>Avoidance: <STRONG>50.5%</STRONG> </P> <P>Base: 32.7%<BR>Block: 0.0%<BR>Parry: 26.4%<BR>Deflection: 0.0%</P> <P><BR><U>With a Pristine Conditioned Cedar Shield on (Shiled Factor: 840 at lvl50):</U></P> <P>Avoidance: <STRONG>58.8%</STRONG></P> <P>Base: 32.7%<BR>Block: 16.8%<BR>Parry: 26.4%<BR>Deflection: 0.0%</P> <DIV>As you can see the only value influenced by the Shield Factor is the Block percentage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So, back to the original question, since a shield with a SF of 840 gives me an added 8.3% Avoidance i'd say a shield with a 750 SF wont be much worse, if you consider the stats on the SBS are much better i would probably use the SBS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too bad i finished the SBS a long time ago so i only have the crappy buckler version....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=133771102" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Kairoth Zzoguardi</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV>Officer of <A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/guild.vm?guildId=146102" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>Orcus Dei Ordo</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>This post is dead on from what I can see.</P> <DIV> <P>Ugh, I am sorry, but I was wrong about the avoidence.  This is what the number said when swapping out the shields last night.</P> <P>Knock me in the head.  </P> <P> </P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>With no shield, I have 4914 hitpoint, 128 strength, 123 stamina, 52% avoidence and a 0% block rate.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>With Cedar, I have 4951 hitpoints, str 128, stam 123 , 60.6% avoidence and a 16.8% block rate.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9933>With SBS, I have 5097 hitpoints, str 139, stamina 133, 60.0% avoidence and a 15.6% block rate. (5% stun proc)</FONT></P> <P> </P> <P>So, I am sorry, but I was wrong, I gain the .6% avoidence with the Cedar.   The SBS givers me more str, stamina, and hitpoints and a proc.</P> <P>So it is definatley a tuff call.  With Raid buffs on, I think it may be wise to go with the cedar, as you would probably not get as many hitpoints from the stamina from the SBS?  Does that sound correct?  </P> <P> </P></DIV> <P> </P>

[Kairo]

<P>Well at least it's all clear now :smileywink:</P> <P>In my opinion the SBS overall is better than the cedar, it's true that raid-buffed stamina will give you less HP per point, but the advantage will still be there and for a .6% avoidance gain it's not worth it, plus you must consider the stun proc.</P> <DIV>Give it a try, and let us know how it works.</DIV>

[ugl]

<P>yea, I been using it.  Looks better then the cedar too, and the +str and such....</P> <P>I got a bag full of hardware ugh...  </P> <DIV>Hrmm, what does a cedar shield do imbued? heh</DIV>

[Xebed]

a most useful thread indeed <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> answered a related question i had, ie do kite shields give inherently lower Block% than a towershield of similar shiled factor? answer, no <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Good, good...was mulling over whether to upgrade to a guard of grum or an oak tower <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /> Still, i do wonder what the relation is between Shield factor and actual Block%, anyone crunched the numbers on that at all perchance? (true i havnt searched, will now) <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Imbued Cedar shield is a 5% chance to proc 108 damage to your attacker when hit, not as good as a 5% chance to proc a stun when hit in my opion.</P> <P>SBS is better then cedar imbued in my honest opion.</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-10-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:46 PM</span>

[Wabit]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Kairoth wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Too bad i finished the SBS a long time ago so i only have the crappy buckler version....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>just goto the nek forest docks and buy the kite version 29g or so...  sell the buckler for 20g to merchant...  so 9g+ 60s for trip to EL for faster travel you got your kite version</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Wabit</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>edit: merchant name Shady Swashbuckler XVIII</DIV><p>Message Edited by Wabit on <span class=date_text>04-12-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:53 AM</span>

[SenorPhr]

with raid buffs you should be 100% avoid with whichever shield. hence, sbs>all, <div></div>