Hold the Line change on test - duration set to 3 minutes

[Rorrak]

<DIV>From the Live Update 6 notes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Warrior changes: </STRONG></DIV> <DIV> <P>- Hold the Line now lasts for 3 minutes.</P> <P>- Unyielding Will is no longer maintained.</P> <P>- The following spells or combat arts no longer expire and had their reuse timer removed:</P> <P><SPAN> </SPAN>- Stand Firm</P> <P> </P> <P>I'm not sure I really understand the reasoning behind this.  Hold the Line is a helpful skill for maintaining aggro but it is not overpowered by any means, so why change it from a 12 hour toggle-able buff to a 3 minute buff that will expire during longer fights?  Will not having it up for 30 seconds every 3 minutes really somehow help Everquest2?  Just seems like a regression back to the days of refreshing rounds of buffs every 3 minutes rather than a positive change to help the game.  I hope the developers reconsider this and leave Hold the Line alone.</P> <P> </P> <P>- Rorrak</P> <P> </P> <P> </P></DIV>

[TunaBoo]

I am confused by this as well, it is one of the few tools we can to hang onto aggro in raids, now raid aggro got even suckier. <div></div>

[Banditman]

<P>/agree</P> <P> </P> <P>So now we are expected to hold enough mana in reserve to cast this repeatedly somehow?  I thought the whole point of it was to allow us to hold aggro during long fights when mana was expected to be depleted well before the end of the fight.</P>

[Axor]

<P><FONT size=2>I dont think its a problem refresh will be under 3 mins so np at all.. it will let us no need to cancel it <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=2>I dont think its a bad thing but we will see when it comes live</FONT></P>

[Grond]

<P>*Shrug*  I have found HTL to be not very efficient in raids.  Hopefully they changed more then just the duration.</P> <P> </P> <P>Grondax Ix'Thania of the Shard</P> <P>Member of Genesis on Highkeep</P> <P>Level 50 Guardian / Level 49 Woodworker</P> <P>Server First Discovery for the Prismatic Longsword</P>

[TunaBoo]

Do the math, hold the line per point of aggro is more effecient then adept3 deafen or anything else. <div></div>

[Grond]

<P>I do admit that it is good in a short fight where power isn't a concern, and that it is a very efficient cost that beats out all I have save protect (which of course does not work on epics).  Math wise it is the best taunt we have.</P> <P> </P> <P>Grondax Ix'Thania of the Shard</P> <P>Member of Genesis on Highkeep</P> <P>Level 50 Guardian / Level 49 Woodworker</P> <P>Server First Discovery for the Prismatic Longsword</P>

[Raea]

I think this is mainly to fix the fact that when you were OOP, hold the line was still active, and would continue to proc.  With the change, if your OOP, we'll be unable to cast the buff until you regen enough power to cast it again. Dunno if it's a huge deal, have to play around and see. <div></div>

[Noah]

<BR> <DIV>Well there goes my afk buff <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The fix is due really.  I can usually pull X raid mob... drain the power of the mob... and once it was OOP and HTL is active, just go afk and maintain agro for the rest of the fight.  Loss of agro usually didnt happen till the mob was around 20 pct or less.  Ah well, all good things come to an end.</DIV>

[apme]

<span><blockquote><hr>Raeani wrote:I think this is mainly to fix the fact that when you were OOP, hold the line was still active, and would continue to proc.  With the change, if your OOP, we'll be unable to cast the buff until you regen enough power to cast it again. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Even so, this change still seems horribly stupid and unfun.</span><div></div>

[Banditman]

And I would like to know "why" it was made . . . I just don't get it.

[Dalthenn]

With all these new changes coming up (defense and this one now), it will be a nice challenge to learn new ways of tanking mobs now. <div></div>

[Stra]

I have to echo the feelings of my guardian brothers. This change is unwaranted. <div></div>

[Mig]

It's a warrior skill, not even a guardian skill. I never used it after it greyed out, I never had agro problems to warrent use it. Lazy man's buff. Glad they are nerfing it.

[Banditman]

Try tanking some challenging content and see how you feel about it. <div></div>

[Mig]

lol, right.

[Stra]

<span><blockquote><hr>Migyb wrote:It's a warrior skill, not even a guardian skill. I never used it after it greyed out, I never had agro problems to warrent use it. Lazy man's buff. Glad they are nerfing it.<hr></blockquote><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><span><span>:smileyvery-happy: Verry funny. Thanks. I needed a laugh. If you were speaking in earnest then you need a clue. A 5 power consuming shouting cry with a 33% chance to proc on target and you are just throwing it away? Just how many greens have you slaughtered? Staying in big wide open, sparsely populated areas? Do something HARD. Then come back. </span></span><span><span> <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span></span><div></div>

[Pa]

<DIV>I dont use HTL much at all, I use on warlock bosses or encounters with drain ae's and that's about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I would guess the reason its being changed is fear (and maybe other spells too) bug it to where you can move and have a 13hr proc ae taunt buff on which is a balance issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If youre one of the people that use it excessively hitting it once every 3min shouldnt be that big of a deal.</DIV>

[Napolle]

there was no reason to change it it was not broken.. oh well things could be worse-- we could be paladins.<span>:smileyvery-happy:</span> <div></div>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote:<BR>It's a warrior skill, not even a guardian skill. I never used it after it greyed out, I never had agro problems to warrent use it. Lazy man's buff. <BR><BR>Glad they are nerfing it.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Lazy mans buff or not, at Adept III, it is IMO one of the best skills we have. Oh well guess I'll be keeping an eye on the maintained spell list and recasting it every 3 minutes.

[Mig]

<blockquote><hr>Strast wrote:<span><blockquote><hr>Migyb wrote:It's a warrior skill, not even a guardian skill. I never used it after it greyed out, I never had agro problems to warrent use it. Lazy man's buff. Glad they are nerfing it.<hr></blockquote><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><span><span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span><span><span>:smileyvery-happy: Verry funny. Thanks. I needed a laugh. If you were speaking in earnest then you need a clue. A 5 power consuming shouting cry with a 33% chance to proc on target and you are just throwing it away? Just how many greens have you slaughtered? Staying in big wide open, sparsely populated areas? Do something HARD. Then come back. </span></span><span><span> <span>:smileyvery-happy:</span></span></span><div></div><hr></blockquote>---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------I guess learning to play my class and not relying on a crutch is hard then. Even noah says you can walk away from the keyboard on a raid mob using HTL. It's not only lazy, it doesn't teach you how to fight, and its a borderline exploit. I won't list all the crap I've done, because I don't need to. My guild knows my worth, and I know my worth. You all are freaking out over one skill, I wonder how many of you are going to quit after the defense nerf? If one skill is going to make or break your tanking ability, then you really seriously need to think about a new profession. Alchemy maybe for example.

[Banditman]

You have taken what Noah said grossly out of context. In context, what he was saying is that ONCE HE IS OUT OF POWER he could walk away from the keyboard.  Seriously, what else CAN you do when you are out of power . . . try to guess if your next swing is a hit or miss? HTL is unbelievably useful and important on those long fights where power drops to nothing, and in multi mob encounters with casters capable of dropping AE bombs. <div></div>

[Mig]

In a long fight, I don't come to the table unprepared without serious power regen. I also don't blow my load in the first minute of the fight. If your in a raid and everyone blows their load in the first minute, of course you going to lose agro. That's why I don't group with undisciplined teammates as well. And if I'm fighting multiple mob encounters, there are other more effective ways to grab agro without hold the line. Ways that don't plant your feet in the ground. So I guess I'm saying I don't get into situations where I'm constantly out of power, or I'm out of power and their are multiple mob adds all around. If I know it's a long fight, I conserve my power, and I ask my teammates to do the same. I also bring serious power regen to the table. If I know I'm going to be fighting multiple mob encounters, I bring crowd control, and I save my power for taunting. If I run around like a chicken with my head cut off, unprepared for fights, with a bunch of people who don't know what they are doing in crowded high con zones....well yea, then I guess I would NEED hold the line. There is not ONE skill we MUST have to do our job.

[MoonglumHMV]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>You have taken what Noah said grossly out of context.<BR><BR>In context, what he was saying is that ONCE HE IS OUT OF POWER he could walk away from the keyboard.  Seriously, what else CAN you do when you are out of power . . . try to guess if your next swing is a hit or miss?<BR><BR>HTL is unbelievably useful and important on those long fights where power drops to nothing, and in multi mob encounters with casters capable of dropping AE bombs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I interpreted what Noah was saying as when the MOB was out of power, not himself....

[Banditman]

It's nice that some people get to play in a perfect situation at all times I guess.  I'm not living in that world, so I'll keep using HTL. The good news is that the HTL nerf didn't go live. <div></div>

[Tomanak]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>It's nice that some people get to play in a perfect situation at all times I guess.  I'm not living in that world, so I'll keep using HTL.<BR><BR>The good news is that the HTL nerf didn't go live.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Its still listed on the Update Notes. Look Under Warrior Changes.</DIV>

[Banditman]

gah!<div></div>

[CherobylJ]

The new timer isnt the end of the world, it refreshes fairly fast and can be utilized for another 3 mins pretty quickly.  Still seems like a weird thing to nerf though.

[tsaav]

guys your missing out the most important change. You can TOGGLE it on and off with the spell button! OMG, its SOOO nice. I don't mind the timer now that i can turn it on and off at will. Hell, they prob had to ADD the timer to make this possible, lol. <div></div>

[English Da Gua]

<P>  Umm it took 1 second to click it off before. I would rather have to be required to click it off with an unlimitied timer as opposed to being able to toggle it off and on. Takes the same amount of time and effort this way.</P> <P>   No big deal, just gonna have to learn to pay attention to it on raids when it wears off.</P>

[Ashtaro]

You could toggle it on and off before the patch.  Was doing that at least a week before last patch went live.

[Belce]

<P>Noah said "drain the power of the mob" he could then go afk with HTL up, wasn't his power that was gone, its the target.  He even repeats himself again and says, "when the mob is OP". </P> <P>Think about it, you can even cast this buff before you pull and get all the power it cost back beforehand and it works regardless of your power state.  It works out to be a free aoe taunt.  With this change you will need to have power to keep it up, which later on becomes very trivial anyways.  This is still a great buff for us with this change and we still have many other tools to get and keep agro anyways.  Its not a required thing to keep agro, it just makes it easy and when we are OP ourselves, it is broken.  No class should have a tool that allows them to do their job regardless of how they have used power in the encounter.  The fact that someone here can come and say they can go afk with this up in an encounter should tell you it is broken. </P> <P>I don't even use this all the time because it is unnecessary to do so and I don't have a problem keeping agro even in situations with multiple encounters. </P> <P> </P>

[English Da Gua]

<DIV>  You can still go afk for 3 min, you telling me its semi broken now? The change is a general PITA, but one we have to deal with. And, please do not talk about power like it is an issue, the spell costs 14 power to recast, and the proc is around that number as well, so it isn't like a lot of people were somehow exploiting the spell to save power, because the regen you have on a raid which is when this spell is used most, dwarfs that 14 power per cast / proc. I really cannot recall going oop anyways, I mean you have hearts and a manastone and other tools which should prevent you from ever being so low you simply cannot keep a spell like HTL up. </DIV><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:01 AM</span>

[Stra]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:You have taken what Noah said grossly out of context. In context, what he was saying is that ONCE HE IS OUT OF POWER he could walk away from the keyboard.  Seriously, what else CAN you do when you are out of power . . . try to guess if your next swing is a hit or miss? HTL is unbelievably useful and important on those long fights where power drops to nothing, and in multi mob encounters with casters capable of dropping AE bombs. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Of course he took it out of context, that is the only way to get it to support his argument. Though I dont know why some other player is any more better resource than one of us. The fact is that if you take really hard content, HTL is indispensible. </span><div></div>

[Pa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Strast wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>You have taken what Noah said grossly out of context.<BR><BR>In context, what he was saying is that ONCE HE IS OUT OF POWER he could walk away from the keyboard.  Seriously, what else CAN you do when you are out of power . . . try to guess if your next swing is a hit or miss?<BR><BR>HTL is unbelievably useful and important on those long fights where power drops to nothing, and in multi mob encounters with casters capable of dropping AE bombs.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Of course he took it out of context, that is the only way to get it to support his argument. Though I dont know why some other player is any more better resource than one of us. The fact is that if you take really hard content, HTL is indispensible. <BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Youre a level 36 guardian saying how indispensable HTL is on hard content? HTL is nice and all but its hardly indispensable, some people use it excessively some people use it occasionally, simple as that. It's normally not worth being rooted imo, and its the same exact skill, they just made it 3min duration, big deal, if you all think its the greatest things since sliced bread then hit the *$%#&! button every 3min.</P> <P>I've tanked everything up to rezzing vox in deception quest and done every instanced epic raid and the only times I use HTL are for Arch Liche and the feerrott drakota instance, I simply dont need it for anything else.</P> <p>Message Edited by Paen on <span class=date_text>04-08-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:34 AM</span>

[tsaav]

Yes you could toggle it off before, but ONLY if it hadn't refreshed! If you hit it after the refresh before the patch it would recast/refresh. Now you can toggle it on and off at will, since the spell button NEVER pops back up unless its already expired. In fact i watch the spell button now instead of the buff window. And i'm sure everyone can relate to the fact that finding the icon (this it? Oh wait thats call of command same graphic, this? no thats my other buff that has the same graphic AND color, oh is this it?) is a REAL pita, and having to right click, WAIT for the context menu (gets laggy during large pulls) then left click the cancel IS a pain. The other major pain with the old system was that if you tried to keyboard run forward while canceling HTL it wouldn't cancel. So in closing good work on the HTL changes SOE, now if its not too much trouble could we get some more icons? Its a little confusing atm with the little blue guy, and a little purple guy and a little yellow guy and <insert rainbow here><div></div>

[Khal]

<span><blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:It's nice that some people get to play in a perfect situation at all times I guess.  I'm not living in that world, so I'll keep using HTL. The good news is that the HTL nerf didn't go live. <div></div><hr></blockquote> Um, on Najena last night I noticed my HTL lasting *three minutes*.   Is that the nerf you say didn't go live? <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></span><div></div>

[Shizzirri]

I used it once by accident last night and yes its on a 3 minute timer