The one thing you can count on... [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

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Rah

03-30-2005, 10:00 PM

<DIV>...is to post a question of fact on this GUARDIAN forum and have it disputed by everyone but the GUARDIANS that are supposed to use the board.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are many posters here that offer informed opinions or hypothesis backed with FACTS from ther gaming</DIV> <DIV>or </DIV> <DIV>Some that if you scroll down the right side bar at a moderate pace offer a still frame cartoon strip of a tiger growling.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And to think that as a EQ1 SK I used to complain to no end that I couldnt tank raid content, now I know what the warriors felt like in EQ1!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Rahge</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 02:51 AM

This post was useful. If they didn't want non-guardians posting, they'd lock the forum.

Oakwood

04-01-2005, 01:25 AM

I love that Gage, the #1 culprit, was also the first responder to your post. But I suspect Gage just likes to [Removed for Content]. If he had the huevos to stand up like a man, admit he chose the wrong class to do the things he wants to do, and reroll as a guardian, he would instead be trolling on the monk boards whining that guardians have no dps, utility or anything else besides the ability to eat damage. /shrug All you can do is tune him out as best you can. Too bad there is not a /ignore on the forums

Gaige

04-01-2005, 02:03 AM

Fine. I'll stop posting on the guardian forums when guardians stop posting on ours. Actually, no I won't. Because so many guardians direct responses/posts at me in these forums. I wish there was an /ignore function too, I know that much.

Blindi

04-01-2005, 02:10 AM

Coming over recently from WoW myself, Gage reminds me of the whiners that got slapped in PvP and would run to the boards crying to nerf the class that beat them. Its pretty sad that I sit here trying to gather good information regarding a class I would like to play and all I get to see are his idiotic remarks in every single thread. Then to find out he's not even a guardian. Gotta love the people who just have to have the attention. I'll be skipping over anything I see with his name from now on.Message Edited by Blinding on 03-31-2005 01:10 PM

04-01-2005, 03:40 AM

Having a forum called "Guardian" does not make it the sole province of only those who pick the guardian option in a game at level 20. I've said it before, if it did, then upon becoming a guardian, the game would give you a password to gain you exclusive rights to a private forum. But guess what? Doesn't happen. If a post is made in any class forum that refers to any number of classes, then why can't players of any of the classes involved post in that thread? If a member of the community is called out, then why can they not respond? If you want a private forum, then go off and make one. SOE has designated ALL these forums as PUBLIC. <div></div>

Blindi

04-01-2005, 04:35 AM

<DIV>Actually, I don't believe anyone said that the forums should be closed to other people. I believe what everyone is referring to is all the nonsense about monks this monks that. That seems to be all he wants to debate about. So before you make everyone a little dumber from reading your reply, go back and read some of his remarks and you'll see what people are referring to.</DIV>

Gaige

04-01-2005, 04:55 AM

How many threads have I started in this forum?

Blindi

04-01-2005, 05:14 AM

I don't believe the debate was about the threads you started either. I am just defending my point to the other poster. I personally could care less who posts, but from all the input you have provided, I was shocked you were not a Guardian. You play a monk. You feel they should be tanks, that's fine, that's your opinion. However, I would like to point out the starter class is fighter, not tank. Keep that in mind. I first made a monk, and switched over to a Guardian once he hit 22 because I wanted to be a tank and in my mnd its absurd to even think of a monk as a tank. Heck, in EQ1, monks were lucky to last 3 hits, so maybe that was my perspective coming in. However, I see you argue quite often about how you want to be a main tank and thats fine. I am asking that you see if that happens, you effectively ruin the entire use for a Guardian. You may have written that, I don't know as I haven't read every thread. Its kind of hard to read this at work and when I get hom, I usually like to log on and not read the forums. I made my choice to switch to a Guardian to be a main tank. You chose your monk, and you cannot honestly sit there and tell me that you chose a monk to be a main tank. If you did, I am sorry, but you chose wrong. Monks are not, and never should be, main tanks. They are a high DPS and high Avoidance fighter. They are great for offtanking, and providing nice DPS. To be honest, I don't think monks take enough damage the way it is. When I am on my monk, I expect to avoid blows, but when I get hit, I expect it to be for a lot more than it actually is. That to me is a problem with mitigation/avoidance as a whole. You should definately be able to avoid much more than me, but you should also lose huge amounts of damage when you get hit. That may be the case at higher levels, but that isn't the case for me now. So if I am off base on that, disregard that. I really am not going to argue anymore about any of this, I am leaving work to go play. I would just like you to think about how some of the things you say sound pretty unrealistic. It actually sounds like from your perspective you want the entire package of all the fighter types in one character. That is not the case, and it never should be. Just my 2 cents.

Gaige

04-01-2005, 06:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Blinding wrote: I don't believe the debate was about the threads you started either. I am just defending my point to the other poster. I personally could care less who posts, but from all the input you have provided, I was shocked you were not a Guardian. You play a monk. You feel they should be tanks, that's fine, that's your opinion. However, I would like to point out the starter class is fighter, not tank. Keep that in mind. I first made a monk, and switched over to a Guardian once he hit 22 because I wanted to be a tank and in my mnd its absurd to even think of a monk as a tank. Heck, in EQ1, monks were lucky to last 3 hits, so maybe that was my perspective coming in. However, I see you argue quite often about how you want to be a main tank and thats fine. I am asking that you see if that happens, you effectively ruin the entire use for a Guardian. You may have written that, I don't know as I haven't read every thread. Its kind of hard to read this at work and when I get hom, I usually like to log on and not read the forums. I made my choice to switch to a Guardian to be a main tank. You chose your monk, and you cannot honestly sit there and tell me that you chose a monk to be a main tank. If you did, I am sorry, but you chose wrong. Monks are not, and never should be, main tanks. They are a high DPS and high Avoidance fighter. They are great for offtanking, and providing nice DPS. To be honest, I don't think monks take enough damage the way it is. When I am on my monk, I expect to avoid blows, but when I get hit, I expect it to be for a lot more than it actually is. That to me is a problem with mitigation/avoidance as a whole. You should definately be able to avoid much more than me, but you should also lose huge amounts of damage when you get hit. That may be the case at higher levels, but that isn't the case for me now. So if I am off base on that, disregard that. I really am not going to argue anymore about any of this, I am leaving work to go play. I would just like you to think about how some of the things you say sound pretty unrealistic. It actually sounds like from your perspective you want the entire package of all the fighter types in one character. That is not the case, and it never should be. Just my 2 cents. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> LoL, not another one. *sigh* I'm not even going to respond.

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 06:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: LoL, not another one. *sigh* I'm not even going to respond. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> Yet you did.</DIV>

Gaige

04-01-2005, 06:22 AM

Not as much as I wanted to. When I see "its absurd to consider a monk the MT" I just laugh to myself.

woo

04-01-2005, 07:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: Not as much as I wanted to. When I see "its absurd to consider a monk the MT" I just laugh to myself. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> me too.. i think we should have a big war, brawlers vs warriors! warriors: "muahahahah we own all! we have more mitigation! mitigation means everything in everquest2, it is the only stat that matters at all! go mitigation go!" <DIV>monks: *judo chop* .. *warrior dies* .. *cheers*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 07:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> woode wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: Not as much as I wanted to. When I see "its absurd to consider a monk the MT" I just laugh to myself. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> me too.. i think we should have a big war, brawlers vs warriors! warriors: "muahahahah we own all! we have more mitigation! mitigation means everything in everquest2, it is the only stat that matters at all! go mitigation go!" <DIV>monks: *judo chop* .. *warrior dies* .. *cheers*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>:smileyvery-happy:</DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> And you would think with all the complaining about our avoidance being to high you would never connect :smileytongue: Message Edited by English Da Guard on 03-31-2005 06:28 PM

Aethane

04-01-2005, 08:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: How many threads have I started in this forum? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I don't know but you singlehandedly have more posts in this forum than any single guardian in the game.

Gaige

04-01-2005, 10:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethane wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: How many threads have I started in this forum? <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I don't know but you singlehandedly have more posts in this forum than any single guardian in the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>/shrug. I get paid to post and play, I guess not many other people do.

Troodon

04-01-2005, 01:31 PM

<div></div>A fair enough senitment, though there are interesting cross archetype issues that get raised in the subclass forums. Ideally we should all really use our Class and indeed Archetype forums a lot more, it would certainly benifit new players. So why if a Paladin posting here? Well appart from the afore mentioned issue that arguments that get debated here have knock on effects for all of us. The rare times Ive post here is to try to offer perspective when someone here starts tossing about game ballancing suggestions using my own class of choice as an example, that is comment from members of such classes is invited by such whever you like it or not. It may just be that the role of the Crusader is a bit ill defined (and certain a lot of people seem to have the unstate though that we're a utility class in the guise of a fighter), but you can pretty much guaruntee that any post mentioning us will include a lot of ill informed hand waving and illuding to us being the "Noob class" and that players of such are only interested in the horse "fluff" spell, apparantly we also heal the sick, cure the blind and lame with our heals too. <div></div>Message Edited by TroodonIE on 04-01-2005 08:33 AM

Styk

04-01-2005, 05:28 PM

Aethane no need to lie... gage has started very few topics in this forum, its just that yal really blew it up..... Imma hand it to Gage thou, he really knew how to #$# off a specific class in there own forum thou,,, <div></div>

Chanliang

04-01-2005, 06:54 PM

Boards are for all interested and talking about issues handled by the current part of the forums like guardian stuff here. No offence to Gage but he could be locked up for a month tho and perhaps he'd return to normal like he was before nerf bat hitted to agility stuff... <div></div>

Rah

04-01-2005, 07:06 PM

I knew this was a mistake as soon as I hit submit, I apologize to those of you looking to share usefull information about our class . In retrospect all I can say is if we continue to argue here with Gage our other post will be much easer to read elsewhere..............on second thought they probably wont. He is ,if nothing else, predictably inaccurate and responsive. I just wish his influence-peddling could be filtered. Let me speak more plainly Gage your arguments at first read seemed to have merit then they degenerated into the I got a AGIL nerf and cant supertank so I will now take whatever postion is required to do so to mitigation tanks. You dont ever mention the other plate tanks just guardians, you dont ever stay on subject you instead jump from one point to another point to another ad nauseum. I dont think your a bad player, I dont think you could not share something USEFULL with us but I do KNOW your agenda is tiring. So if you must post please stay in the facts arena if you would. To the rest of the Guardians out there again I apologize, Gage taunted me with his vast array of taunt skills and for a time stood atop my hate list, then I conned him and realized a grey mob will give no reward.....even if it saw itself as a double crown epic with the fanciest of borders! Rahge

Nemi

04-01-2005, 08:28 PM

The only people that get upset at Gage are the Guardians that believe they have sole rights to certain raid content.Gage and many others of the monk community have ALWAYS said:ALL Fighters should be able to TANK all mobs in the game and succeed. That statement includes Guardians and it also by definition requires balance between the classes so I don't know where Guardians get the idea the monk community is out to nerf Guardians.The only way it would be a nerf to Guardians is if they were over-powered to begin with.

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 08:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote: The only people that get upset at Gage are the Guardians that believe they have sole rights to certain raid content. Gage and many others of the monk community have ALWAYS said: ALL Fighters should be able to TANK all mobs in the game and succeed. That statement includes Guardians and it also by definition requires balance between the classes so I don't know where Guardians get the idea the monk community is out to nerf Guardians. The only way it would be a nerf to Guardians is if they were over-powered to begin with. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I do not have time to rummage through the monk forums any more then I have to... as I would rather shampoo my hair, but here : <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=117899" target=_blank>NeVeRLiFt</A> Master Posts: 145 Registered: 12-15-2004 <IMG height=8 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=150 border=0> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/view_profile?user.id=117899" target=_blank><IMG height=36 alt=NeVeRLiFt src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/i/icons/EQ2/eq2_blue.gif" width=36 border=2></A> Reply <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=13163#M13163" target=_blank>1</A> of 252 <IMG height=6 src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=1> Viewed 2121 times <IMG alt="10 ratings - 3.8 average" src="http://eq2.i.lithium.com/i/skins/default/icon_rating_4.gif" border=0><IMG height=1 alt="" src="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/i/p.gif" width=1 border=0> ***I would love to see someone explain why Monks get hit more than Guardians*** I guess we aren't as avoidance oriented as is implied! I feel the dev's owe us an answer. From what I am seeing Guardians, Berserkers and Pally's are all showing 50-70% avoidance and mitigate roughly 50% of all dmg. And the Guardians have insane buff's for their defense skill. Dev's you nerf the bard classes so when are you gonna nerf the guardians? Is it to much to get our deflection working? Is it not enough we take double the dmg that guardians do and yet get hit more cause we can not buff our defense skill which seems to effect avoidance more than anything. <DIV>The World is changed, Some say Awakened. It's 13:53:33 . Do You Know Where Your Meat Body Is? Shadowrunner by trade...</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV> <DIV> I guess I am not sure where guardians get the idea monks want us nerfed either /sarcasm off</DIV>

stronghea

04-01-2005, 08:46 PM

<DIV> I pretty much just pass over what gage has to say since it obvious he is only looking for +1 to his post count. To be honest I found some of his earlier posts interesting but over the past month it's been way overboard. </DIV>

RafaelSmith

04-01-2005, 08:48 PM

<blockquote><hr>Nemi wrote:The only people that get upset at Gage are the Guardians that believe they have sole rights to certain raid content.Gage and many others of the monk community have ALWAYS said:ALL Fighters should be able to TANK all mobs in the game and succeed. That statement includes Guardians and it also by definition requires balance between the classes so I don't know where Guardians get the idea the monk community is out to nerf Guardians.The only way it would be a nerf to Guardians is if they were over-powered to begin with.<hr></blockquote> Not true. I actually agree that Avoidance for plate tanks is too much. I think our buffs should be mitigation and not defense or avoidace. I dont think the monk community is out to nerf anyone. I just think some people use balance as an excuse to make themselves sound important. I get upset at Gage because he rambles about 100 different things half of which contradict the other half. He says he doesnt want EQ2 to become EQ1 but most of the crap he proposes will do just that. He thinks what his idea of who should do what in a group is the only way it should be. If all he and others wanted was in fact that ... ALL Fighters should be able to TANK all mobs in the game and succeed then nothing needs to be done because its already that way. Proove that its not? <div></div>

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 09:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote: ALL Fighters should be able to TANK all mobs in the game and succeed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You seem like a pretty level headed guy Nemi. There is 2 things wrong with this statement Nemi :</DIV> <OL> <LI>Tank reguardless of what class he is, is part of a team, there is no Me in team, its not the tank that drives the nail home, its the team that helps swing the hammer.</LI> <LI>It already happens now as we speak, its just that Guardians were the frist to do it and now there is this mentaility set in to certain types of people and they lead others to believe that there the only ones who can do it, when acual fact, any fighter class can tank raid mobs but it requires different stratergy, what works for a Guardian isnt going to work for a Monk, what works for a Berserker isnt going to work for a Paladin, thats the point of the archtype system so we can all do the job equally but in a different formation making every one have a postion no matter what. Now that other guilds and class are improvising new ways, we are starting to see that in acual fact the entire Fighter range can tank.</LI></OL> Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker 16th Outfitter Everfrost Server Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired ) 70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist Five Rings on Luclin Server

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 09:11 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> Aoenin actually there is a ME in tEaM. There is no I in team :smileywink:</BLOCKQUOTE>

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 09:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> English Da Guard wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> Aoenin actually there is a ME in tEaM. There is no I in team :smileywink:</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> lol yeah that too, and welcome to Master slacker. Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker 16th Outfitter Everfrost Server Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired ) 70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist Five Rings on Luclin Server

Nemi

04-01-2005, 09:47 PM

<blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Nemi wrote: ALL Fighters should be able to TANK all mobs in the game and succeed. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You seem like a pretty level headed guy Nemi. There is 2 things wrong with this statement Nemi :</DIV> <OL> <LI>Tank reguardless of what class he is, is part of a team, there is no Me in team, its not the tank that drives the nail home, its the team that helps swing the hammer.</LI> <LI>It already happens now as we speak, its just that Guardians were the frist to do it and now there is this mentaility set in to certain types of people and they lead others to believe that there the only ones who can do it, when acual fact, any fighter class can tank raid mobs but it requires different stratergy, what works for a Guardian isnt going to work for a Monk, what works for a Berserker isnt going to work for a Paladin, thats the point of the archtype system so we can all do the job equally but in a different formation making every one have a postion no matter what. Now that other guilds and class are improvising new ways, we are starting to see that in acual fact the entire Fighter range can tank.</LI></OL> Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker 16th Outfitter Everfrost Server Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired ) 70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist Five Rings on Luclin Server<hr></blockquote>I'm well aware that it requires a team. Thats why I believe balance would be achieved through the healer classes. Warriors teamed with Clerics should equal Brawlers teamed with Shamans.In this situation I think group efficiency should be the same: its the old equation:Group_Efficiency = Power_used * Time_to_killThat should be roughly equal.

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 10:11 PM

The problem is that wards + monks is great for avoiding, but you cannot avoid AEs. So regardless you still need a reactive healer or regen available. Or would you just have the ward types heal you using their less then efficient heals in comparison to reactives / regens? A team of DIVERSITY is required. Monks CAN tank raid mobs, and with the increase in avoidance they should get they will be able to more so (although the decrease in Def buff stacking may just make the whole avoidance increase you guys get obsolete). Only thing is bad rolls and AEs will still exist. There will never be balance between avoidance and mitigation tanks, but I believe SoE can make the gap closer. Again though, it is the end game we are concerned with, and many in the end game want a raid to go as smooth as possible, which means mitigation. It leaves less to chance. PS - Thanks Aonein, Orange Sherbert (or whatever color it is) > Purple :smileyvery-happy:Message Edited by English Da Guard on 04-01-2005 09:26 AM

Gaige

04-01-2005, 10:13 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> English Da Guard wrote: Or would you just have the ward types heal you using their less then efficient heals in comparison to reactives / regens? They are fixing this in LU#7. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 10:18 PM

Fixing what? So they are giving ward type healers wards + heals that are on par with clerics and regens on par with wardens / furies? Are they giving the reactives and regeners out there wards too? I must have missed all that info, that's crazy if they do that...doesn't that make all healers the same?

Gaige

04-01-2005, 10:31 PM

I think the main thing they are looking at is power/heal ratio and instant heals. Not giving the classes the other heal types.

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 10:36 PM

Ah nice, well that is a step in the right direction. Hopefully the direction they take fighters makes as much sense in terms of equality but different. Thanks for info.

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 10:43 PM

Read these English and the thread that goes with it, its pretty interesting acually : <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=39033#M39033" target=_blank>Here</A> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=38949#M38949" target=_blank>Here</A> Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker 16th Outfitter Everfrost Server Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired ) 70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist Five Rings on Luclin Server

Gaige

04-01-2005, 10:44 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote: Read these English and the thread that goes with it, its pretty interesting acually : <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=39033#M39033" target=_blank>Here</A> <A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=spellart&message.id=38949#M38949" target=_blank>Here</A> Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker 16th Outfitter Everfrost Server Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired ) 70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist Five Rings on Luclin Server <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Thanks for linking, I'm lazy this morning.

04-01-2005, 10:58 PM

<blockquote><hr>English Da Guard wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div></div> The problem is that wards + monks is great for avoiding, but you cannot avoid AEs. So regardless you still need a reactive healer or regen available. Or would you just have the ward types heal you using their less then efficient heals in comparison to reactives / regens? A team of DIVERSITY is required. Monks CAN tank raid mobs, and with the increase in avoidance they should get they will be able to more so (although the decrease in Def buff stacking may just make the whole avoidance increase you guys get obsolete). Only thing is bad rolls and AEs will still exist. There will never be balance between avoidance and mitigation tanks, but I believe SoE can make the gap closer. Again though, it is the end game we are concerned with, and many in the end game want a raid to go as smooth as possible, which means mitigation. It leaves less to chance. PS - Thanks Aonein, Orange Sherbert (or whatever color it is) > Purple :smileyvery-happy:Message Edited by English Da Guard on 04-01-2005 09:26 AM<hr></blockquote> Well then, how about as their raid balance, allow brawlers, as avoidance tanks, to have the chance to avoid ALL types of attack. Melee, AEs, spells, you name it, brawlers would have a chance to avoid it. Might be a way to differentiate between the tanks. If you think its a stupid idea, thats fine. Just an idea.<div></div>

MastikFantastik

04-01-2005, 11:01 PM

<DIV> Ok, I want to start off. I play a guardian and that's about it. I have a level 6 mage , I might get him to 7th while getting citizenship but he is to be a crafter. I like playing a guardian, I have a friend that plays a monk, and others that play each class. We have talked at length of the issues of the game of the fighter classes and balancing and come to the conclusion. Nerfs/changes will happen and we will have to learn to adapt, that's it plain and simple. When we group (even when we were the same level, which I am higher then he is now) I was the MT and he was the OT/MA, why you might ask simple. I can hold the agro easier of the mobs with expected results. Like the mob will constantly hit me for xxx dmg, where as he is sparadic and random dmg it seems, making me a more reliable MT. Not that he couldn't do it, which he has but the fact that the healers can judge their heals more effectively with me. The mob hits me 3 times. 400, 400, 400. I shrug it off with the healer healing me easily because the were using a healing strategy for that mob case and point not just reacting. My Monk friend dodges(avoids) , dodges (avoids), BAM hit 1200 dmg and the next hit could kill him if the mob hits him and this forces the healer to heal a lot and may throw agro their way . I know this is a dramatization but you see this is how the game is more or less (yes it shows guardians avoiding dmg, but like others have pointed out it can because of .. ohh I don't know the fridge door I have strapped to my arm that it taking the blow (and not blocking out right), or the 500 lbs of steel plating I am wearing. That is causing me to avoid taking dmg.) So 10 attacks from the mob me vs my friend would probably play out. (not nessacarilly and no this is not parsed in any manner just observation from the game itself) Attack # Guardian: Monk 1 150 avoid (dodge) 2 150 av oid (dodge) 3 avoid (dodge) avoid (dodge) 4 150 275 5 avoid (0 dmg taken) avoid (dodge) 6 avoid (parries attack) avoid (dodge) 7 200 275 8 avoid (0 dmg taken) avoid (cool backflip dodge... yeah I know) 9 avoid (block with fridge door) avoid (dodge) 10 150 25 0 What I have personally witnessed is that I avoid less even then the monk persay. And I suspect a lot of my "Avoiding" is taking 0 dmg because it's totally mitigated. Now for him to be perfectly equal to me in tanking ability he would have to ... oh wait he is. Now as for raid mobs, I suspect because they are higher level, have higher skills, etc.. They will hit more often no matter who tanks it, and the reason I suspect guardians seem better for this is because we mitigate that dmg better, not avoid it. Now if a monk wants to tank that mob he has to take into account that when that mob does hit (and with its supperior skills to a regular mob(s)) that its going to hurt more. So the extra hit for more dmg could kill that monk where as the guardian would have been able to take it because the healers have been continually (patterns,plans, etc....) healing where as with a monk they might not have to heal most of the fight then react to the dmg taken. Thus the monk may be dead, and not able to tank that raid mob. Now all raid mobs are NOT the same and there might be situations that the constant barrage of hits would be worse for the healers then the (more rare) reaction healing hits on the monks. Now for those disagree with me that's your right to. As for NERF <insert class here> because <insert action/ability here> is better then mine, has got to stop. That's life, get a helmet and live it. I remember EQ1 I played a mage and had a wizard friend. Head to head he could out dmg me easily, in a shorter fight or in 1 fight only. Where as I was a constant barrage dmg (using pets as part of the dmg) and unless I nuked my bottom off I would have a lot more mana(power) at the end of the fight. We were about equally LFG, and both of us could solo things. The point of the EQ1 thing is to show that were 2 different classes but we were both considered the smae type, DPS. There were cases he could solo better then me and vice versa. The same goes here. Guardians, Bezerkers, Palladins, Shadowknights, Monks, Brusiers are all tanks but do things differently, and there will instances where <pick a class> will be better as the tank for <insert combat scenario>, thus we are pretty equal in tanking. To paraphrase Gage (sorry for singling you out in this case) he tanked 1 - 50 and (unless I miss read) can and has tanked some raid mobs just not certain one(s) . That proves that they are as effective as Guardian as tanking a tanking class (FOR MOST SCENARIOS, if not suppeiror in some). As for people whining about this that and the other thing, I have a simple solution and here it is. Give EVERYONE ALL THE SKILLS/ABILITIES AND ALLOW EVERYONE TO WEAR EVERYTHING . That way the class is just a title and there is no distinguishing features to anyone. That way no-one could/would ever have to LFG and be ignored because they don't meet the groups that are looking for role. Then again who would have to group to accomplish anything other then kill raid mobs. So the one thing I can count on ... is people being just that people. They want to be the best, the needed/required person, and if someone does something better then them, then they try to take that person down a peg. It's rare to see people that applaud others for what that person can do better then them, and not become envious/jealous and try to take that person down in some manner or another. Society loves to to see people succeed only if they fall when that successful person is at the top of that mountain. Now if this post offends someone, I am sorry for that. But I suspect that the reason it offends you, might be that you are one of those people that loves to watch the mighty fall/or want to be that mighty person yourself and only you. </DIV>

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 11:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Jaye wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> English Da Guard wrote: The problem is that wards + monks is great for avoiding, but you cannot avoid AEs. So regardless you still need a reactive healer or regen available. Or would you just have the ward types heal you using their less then efficient heals in comparison to reactives / regens? A team of DIVERSITY is required. Monks CAN tank raid mobs, and with the increase in avoidance they should get they will be able to more so (although the decrease in Def buff stacking may just make the whole avoidance increase you guys get obsolete). Only thing is bad rolls and AEs will still exist. There will never be balance between avoidance and mitigation tanks, but I believe SoE can make the gap closer. Again though, it is the end game we are concerned with, and many in the end game want a raid to go as smooth as possible, which means mitigation. It leaves less to chance. PS - Thanks Aonein, Orange Sherbert (or whatever color it is) > Purple :smileyvery-happy: Message Edited by English Da Guard on 04-01-2005 09:26 AM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Well then, how about as their raid balance, allow brawlers, as avoidance tanks, to have the chance to avoid ALL types of attack. Melee, AEs, spells, you name it, brawlers would have a chance to avoid it. Might be a way to differentiate between the tanks. If you think its a stupid idea, thats fine. Just an idea. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Hehe no I do not think that is stupid at all. Only thing I would say is that if you give them that ability, and no one else, it would need to be a rather small percentage so it is not over powering. Again, I have no problem with a monk avoiding, I mean he is an avoidance tank.

woo

04-02-2005, 09:38 AM

*judo chop*

Belce

04-02-2005, 10:31 AM

Its not a fridge door, its the hood from your car. You and your team can stand behind it and poke sticks out until the target is dead. And its a hood from a long nose car, the kind when you open it up, you find a family of refugees have made a home in the space around the engine. Please, some privacy.