Played both Bruiser and Guardian. [Archive] - EQ2 Forum Archive @ EQ2Wire

English Da Gua

03-31-2005, 01:00 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR>Curiouser and curiouser.<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> PlatinumX2 wrote:<BR>Something I wanted to add to these discussions. I understand that a lot of individuals think that avoidance and mitigation are off. I'm interested to see the diff between the amount of mitigation between a monk and guard as well as avoidance between a monk and guard at the same lvl unbuffed with relatively the same equipment for that lvl.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>From posts I've read an unbuffed Guardian will have an Avoidance between 50% - 60% whereas an unbuffed Monk will have an Avoidance between 60% and 70%. Variations typically are related to the amount of Agi the character has.<BR><BR>I think, PlatinumX2, that most people are percieving the Avoidance/Mitigation balance being off <I>after</I> buffing, not before. <FONT color=#ffff00>Even after merely self-buffing. I've read that a level 50 Guardian, through Call of Protection stacking with Return to Battle, can self-buff their Defense by 23 points. Throw in a race where the Guardian can choose a +5 Defense Tradition and you have an effective self-buff of 28 points, which is over 5 levels of difference in Defense.</FONT> That's effectively graying-out white-con mobs. That should, due to the way Defense scales, push the Avoidance percent in the Persona screen to the high 90s at least. My own logged tests show almost no hits from non-Heroic mobs only 4 levels below my character level just using unbuffed Defense. No other class can approach that kind of self-buffing, partly because their buffs don't stack; the closest they can get is +15 to one Avoidance skill or another.<BR><BR>Back on topic, your DPS numbers surprise me. Please do post your results from your testing tonight, or whenever you get the time to do it.<BR><BR><BR>Edited for clarity. <P>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <SPAN class=date_text>03-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>11:45 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> Problem is, as Gage himself stated, he can self buff his own defense 15. As an ogre I get an additional, if I choose, 10 def, which an ogre monk could also easily have taken. Simple fact is in terms of def it is not that guardians are over powered, as they only can achieve 5 more def in true effectiveness when compared to a monk. Surely the disparity is not that much bigger for other plate classes as well. That is why buff stacking (and on a lesser note plate avoidance) is the true root of the problem, not the guardian class, as if you look close he sacrifices SOME, now I didn't say a lot, but some utility and DPS for 5 more def. Fair trade imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

Platinum

03-31-2005, 01:11 AM

<span><blockquote><hr>FamilyManFirst wrote:Curiouser and curiouser.<blockquote><hr>PlatinumX2 wrote:Something I wanted to add to these discussions. I understand that a lot of individuals think that avoidance and mitigation are off. I'm interested to see the diff between the amount of mitigation between a monk and guard as well as avoidance between a monk and guard at the same lvl unbuffed with relatively the same equipment for that lvl.<hr></blockquote>From posts I've read an unbuffed Guardian will have an Avoidance between 50% - 60% whereas an unbuffed Monk will have an Avoidance between 60% and 70%. Variations typically are related to the amount of Agi the character has.I think, PlatinumX2, that most people are percieving the Avoidance/Mitigation balance being off <i>after</i> buffing, not before. Even after merely self-buffing. I've read that a level 50 Guardian, through Call of Protection stacking with Return to Battle, can self-buff their Defense by 23 points. Throw in a race where the Guardian can choose a +5 Defense Tradition and you have an effective self-buff of 28 points, which is over 5 levels of difference in Defense. That's effectively graying-out white-con mobs. That should, due to the way Defense scales, push the Avoidance percent in the Persona screen to the high 90s at least. My own logged tests show almost no hits from non-Heroic mobs only 4 levels below my character level just using unbuffed Defense. No other class can approach that kind of self-buffing, partly because their buffs don't stack; the closest they can get is +15 to one Avoidance skill or another.Back on topic, your DPS numbers surprise me. Please do post your results from your testing tonight, or whenever you get the time to do it.Edited for clarity.<p>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <span class="date_text">03-30-2005</span> <span class="time_text">11:45 AM</span></p><hr> Cop and cob buff the entire group though, are you saying that other classes buffs don't stack with them? K, I'll post them tonight, I'll try several different con- mobs to see the advantage between lvled mobs </blockquote></span><div></div>

Banditman

03-31-2005, 01:56 AM

<P>I recently parsed some fights on my Mystic in a trio.</P> <P>Our group was: 43 Mystic (me, 44 now), 45 Guard, 44 Illusionist.</P> <P>We were fighting Nightbloods / Lamia's in Rivervale. These mobs ran from 42 - 46 in general, and were a combination of single ups and double ups.</P> <P>My DPS ran in 60 - 70 range on average. Resists and Procs on my staff were the biggest variants in where I landed, and occasionally I had to heal or cure which also dropped my DPS. I got as high as 89 DPS and fell as low as 28 DPS.</P> <P>The Illusionist really surprised me. His DPS wasn't NEARLY as good as I thought it would be. He generally ran 50 - 60 DPS, as low as 25 and as high as 78.</P> <P>The Guardian generally ran between 110 - 120 DPS. These mobs were not really able to do much to hit him so he could pretty much go flat DPS. No shield, just whatever weapon he wanted to work with. I saw his DPS go as high as 168 and as low as 65.</P> <P>On the last mob I asked him to go full burn on DPS to see what he could do when power was not a concern. 182, ended fight with no power.</P> <P>Keep in mind, he had a HUGE advantage in sustaining his DPS over time. We had a really good Illusionist who kept us hasted and breezed (ok, whatever the high level breeze is). This is a HUGE advantage in maintaining DPS over the course of chain pulling. If we didn't have the Illusionist he would not have been able to sustain that kind of DPS fight over fight, which is what I assume the question above was regarding.</P>

Rah

03-31-2005, 02:00 AM

<P>Plat what parser program are you using?</P> <P> </P> <P>Rahge</P>

FamilyManFir

03-31-2005, 02:19 AM

<blockquote><hr>English Da Guard wrote:<DIV> Problem is, as Gage himself stated, he can self buff his own defense 15. As an ogre I get an additional, if I choose, 10 def, which an ogre monk could also easily have taken. Simple fact is in terms of def it is not that guardians are over powered, as they only can achieve 5 more def in true effectiveness when compared to a monk. Surely the disparity is not that much bigger for other plate classes as well. That is why buff stacking (and on a lesser note plate avoidance) is the true root of the problem, not the guardian class, as if you look close he sacrifices SOME, now I didn't say a lot, but some utility and DPS for 5 more def. Fair trade imo.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV><hr></blockquote>It's not a difference of 5 it's a difference of 8 (Return to Battle stacking 8 points on top of Call of Protection's 15 points), but your point is taken. 8 points in Defense shouldn't make that much difference ... but it does, because of how Defense scales. I ran some carefully controlled tests <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=10425" target=_blank>here</a> which showed a 60% difference in hit rate based on Defense alone between mobs 4 levels below my character and mobs 3 levels below my character. That's a <b>60%</b> change from <b>5 points</b> of Defense.Personally I feel that a radical change should be made, with Defense remaining scaled as it is but <b>no</b> buffs affecting it at all, except perhaps the Racial Traditions. All defensive buffs, from any class, should affect Parry or Block or Deflection, which should scale more linearly. Another change that might be beneficial and more in-line with the class definitions would be to convert half of the defensive buffs of the Warrior line from Defense skill buffs to Mitigation buffs while converting the other half to Parry skill buffs. However, that's just my opinion and would have to be play-tested to see if it worked.

ugl

03-31-2005, 02:32 AM

<P>Familyman, </P> <P>I would like too see how great a difference that 5-8 points of defense is on white and/or yellow mobs, not on greens.</P> <P>Why? because I bet its not very much. And most of us dont sit around and fight greens unless we are camping billy or something. We fight white, yellows, oranges and sometimes reds. </P> <P>I bet 5-8 defense doesnt mean all that against mobs equal to or higher then your level, which what most groups/raid encounters face. I would like to compare that, with the difference brawlers have in DPS and utilities.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 02:49 AM

Maybe Uglak, but 5 defense fighting a white mob turns that mob blue, and 5 defense fighting a yellow mob can turn it white. See?

FamilyManFir

03-31-2005, 03:13 AM

<blockquote><hr>uglak wrote:<P>Familyman, </P> <P>I would like too see how great a difference that 5-8 points of defense is on white and/or yellow mobs, not on greens.</P> <P>Why? because I bet its not very much. And most of us dont sit around and fight greens unless we are camping billy or something. We fight white, yellows, oranges and sometimes reds. </P> <P>I bet 5-8 defense doesnt mean all that against mobs equal to or higher then your level, which what most groups/raid encounters face. I would like to compare that, with the difference brawlers have in DPS and utilities.</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <hr></blockquote>Ah, but if <i>other</i> buffs (like Call to Battle and the Racial Traditions, as well as buffs from other classes) raise Defense until a mob is "effectively" blue, then that 8 points will push it over the edge to green and you'll see that huge difference.All it takes to get a yellow-con mob to low-blue is 20-25 points. Guardians can use CoB for 15 points; toss in a Racial Tradition of +5 and you have 20 points, taking a low-yellow mob to low-blue. Now throw on RtB and the mob goes from low-blue to mid-low green and you see that huge difference.If a Guardian can find a class with a Defense buff of no more than +5 that stacks with theirs then high-yellow mobs become low-green. If a Guardian can get buffs of +15 that stack with theirs then high-orange mobs become low-green. For all other classes those mobs are low-blue and, as I said, there's over a 60% difference in hit rate between low-green and low-blue.That scaling is understandable, BTW. I'm betting that it was done to make gray mobs no-threat (if they can't hit you they can't hurt you) and red mobs no-fight (if they always hit you you're going to die). However, when you then throw in buffs that modify such a scaled skill you start having real headaches balancing mobs against character level.That is why, IMHO, I recommend that Defense buffs be converted to buffs of other avoidance-type skills which, at the same time, should be altered to scale more linearly. However, again, I'd want to see it play-tested to be sure it worked.

ugl

03-31-2005, 04:27 AM

<P>Gauge, If I wanted to hear a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], I would have farted.</P> <P>Familyman,</P> <P>By doing your test against green mobs, your stacking the test in favor of showing your point, when the reality is most people dont fight green mobs. Is that why you chose not to test them against whites are higher?</P> <P>So guardians got a +5 defense bonus over other fighters? So what? Wouldnt that be expected of the most defensive oriented fighter? Thats what gauge has been whining about for 2 months?</P> <P>Other fighters can turn the 54 level mobs to white cone, and guardians can make them blue? So what?</P> <P>Sounds like to me you have a problem with defense buffs. So whats with all the calls to nerf guardians then for 6 threads later?</P> <P>Cause we have a +5 advantage? Why not take it to the troubador forums or something? Sounds like theyre the ones that are unbalanced.</P> <P>Hate to break the news to you, but most guardians dont have a troubador in their entire guild, much less one in their pocket everynight.</P> <P> </P>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 04:29 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P>Gauge, If I wanted to hear a [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot], I would have farted.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>LoL, after all this time you still can't spell my name right. No one cares about your +5 advantage in defense, we care about how much it scales in relation to the mobs ability to hit.</P> <P>Thanks <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and troubs were the main cause for the super high agility earlier too, the one that messed us up, and guess what they certainly didn't nerf the buffs then <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:30 PM</span>

seudai

03-31-2005, 04:33 AM

I still do not see where some of you are coming from but am trying to understand. Just for the sake of roleplaying purposes how would a light armor'd monk type, take damage as well as a 8'0 ogre with full plate carying a shield as big as himself? I would like to see classes, fighter types, whatever seperated more and defined better in what the do and how they do it. I've always expected a monk to be able to tank in a normal situation and do considerable amount more DPS than a guardian/paladin/shadowknight. Maybe its just me but I've always seen the plate classes as the true warriors, each with its special skillset. Also keep in mind you guys get some nice self utility spells that we do not. FD, Heal, Invis? Those are pretty sweet in themselves. Granted FD isnt as cool as it was in eq1

FamilyManFir

03-31-2005, 05:19 AM

<blockquote><hr>uglak wrote:<P>Familyman,</P> <P>By doing your test against green mobs, your stacking the test in favor of showing your point, when the reality is most people dont fight green mobs. Is that why you chose not to test them against whites are higher?</P><hr></blockquote>Actually, I didn't run those logs to specifically test Defense, I ran them to check Deflection. However, I was amazed to see the difference that a single level in mob made, from low-green to high-green, specifically about a 60% difference in hit rate.Moreover, you're missing my point. Correct, most people don't fight green mobs; most people fight white or yellow, sometimes orange in a good group, sometimes red in a really good group. However, my point is that, with Defense skill buffs, you can change the <i>effective</i> "con" of the mob from white or yellow down to green.<blockquote><hr><P>So guardians got a +5 defense bonus over other fighters? So what? Wouldnt that be expected of the most defensive oriented fighter? Thats what gauge has been whining about for 2 months?</P><hr></blockquote>LOL, I know that it'll lower your regard of me, but I generally agree with Gage's position. However, I'm going to try hard not to get into that argument on this thread. Nonetheless, please remember, Guardians get a <b>+8</b> defense bonus over other fighters, not a +5.<blockquote><hr><P>Other fighters can turn the 54 level mobs to white cone, and guardians can make them blue? So what?</P><hr></blockquote>If that was all there would be little cause to complain. However, one class in your group with a stackable +10 Defense buff (or two stackable +5s) and the mob becomes green to a Guardian and blue to any other fighter. That's the kicker, as the difference between blue and green is huge; as I said, over a 60% difference in hit rate.<blockquote><hr><P>Sounds like to me you have a problem with defense buffs. So whats with all the calls to nerf guardians then for 6 threads later?</P> <P>Cause we have a +5 advantage? Why not take it to the troubador forums or something? Sounds like theyre the ones that are unbalanced.</P> <P>Hate to break the news to you, but most guardians dont have a troubador in their entire guild, much less one in their pocket everynight.</P><hr></blockquote>I do, indeed, have a problem with Defense buffs, as I stated before, because of the way Defense scales. I don't like to call for nerfs, so I call for a wholesale change, as I posted above: don't let <i>any</i> buffs affect Defense, have them affect other avoidance skills that scale more linearly. Moreover, since the Warrior classes are supposed to be the Mitigation kings, perhaps SOE should convert some, say half, of the Warrior classes' avoidance buffs to Mitigation buffs, but that would have to be playtested.Since I'm talking about major changes to the Warrior line it only makes sense to post in this forum. However, I'm really more interested in parsed DPS logs of Guardians. I brought up this point in response to PlatinumX2's post.

FamilyManFir

03-31-2005, 05:21 AM

Seudainx, I'd be happy to respond to you, but I'd <i>really</i> rather do it in another thread. Pick another thread or start one and PM me; I'll answer. I'm hoping to keep this thread on Guardian DPS.

FamilyManFir

03-31-2005, 05:25 AM

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<P>I recently parsed some fights on my Mystic in a trio.</P> <P>Our group was: 43 Mystic (me, 44 now), 45 Guard, 44 Illusionist.</P> <P>We were fighting Nightbloods / Lamia's in Rivervale. These mobs ran from 42 - 46 in general, and were a combination of single ups and double ups.</P> <P>My DPS ran in 60 - 70 range on average. Resists and Procs on my staff were the biggest variants in where I landed, and occasionally I had to heal or cure which also dropped my DPS. I got as high as 89 DPS and fell as low as 28 DPS.</P> <P>The Illusionist really surprised me. His DPS wasn't NEARLY as good as I thought it would be. He generally ran 50 - 60 DPS, as low as 25 and as high as 78.</P> <P>The Guardian generally ran between 110 - 120 DPS. These mobs were not really able to do much to hit him so he could pretty much go flat DPS. No shield, just whatever weapon he wanted to work with. I saw his DPS go as high as 168 and as low as 65.</P> <P>On the last mob I asked him to go full burn on DPS to see what he could do when power was not a concern. 182, ended fight with no power.</P> <P>Keep in mind, he had a HUGE advantage in sustaining his DPS over time. We had a really good Illusionist who kept us hasted and breezed (ok, whatever the high level breeze is). This is a HUGE advantage in maintaining DPS over the course of chain pulling. If we didn't have the Illusionist he would not have been able to sustain that kind of DPS fight over fight, which is what I assume the question above was regarding.</P> <hr></blockquote>Thanks, Banditman, for the numbers. I find it fascinating that your 45 Guardian friend was able to pump out that DPS. At first blush it looks like haste really makes a DPS difference. That is surprising since I believe that about 60% of Fighters' damage comes from Combat Arts which, as I understand it, aren't affected by haste. Or am I incorrect?Edited for clarity.<p>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:27 PM</span>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 06:02 AM

<P>RAW melee damage will always surpass combat arts, abilities and spells for the simple fact that its constant, no need for power usage meaning once a Caster is out of power, thats it he / she is basically useless. When you are hasted, you are increasing your RAW melee damage out put by 50%, so you are doubling it. The time it takes to cast some arts / spells you are acually losing DPS. Berserkers are a prime example of this cause our AoE arts / spells take 4 seconds to go off, and we could of done the same if not more damage to a single target encounter if we just stayed on that mob while we are hasted, so for example, with self haste and a combination of combat arts, i can get around 110 - 120 dps because my damage is constant, thats on Herioc group and <STRONG>^^</STRONG> mobs, when i use my AoE arts its taking me 4 seconds to do around 200 damage to each mob in a encounter, so if there isnt anymore then 3 mobs in a encounter, its basically useless to use them, you are acually losing DPS due to the AoE not generating the same amount of RAW DPS you would of done to a single target in that 4 seconds.</P> <P>Now when you look at the difference between a Monk and Guardian, its not that they have a close to the same amount of offensive damage arts, its the direct damage done by them that make the difference + self haste. Monks hit harder and faster to draw agro in like that to offset for the fact they have less taunts, where a Guardian has low damage offensive damage arts with debuffs tied into them which draws agro that way from the debuff portion of the art plus a wider range of taunts to offset for the lower amount of DPS he does due to no self haste, and lower damage offensive damage arts. Guardians can do upto 120 DPS no problem if going all out DPS, but then there out of power after every single fight and then that makes them a uneffcient style of DPS cause its not constant, cause they have to spam the hell out of there low damage offensive arts to make up for the fact they dont get no self haste like Monk / Bruiser / Berserkers get.</P> <P>Haste is alot more powerful then people think, especially on raids, and anything else that goes along with haste for example like the offensive buff a Monk gets, Quoite Purity, increase Damage Per Second by 9%, increase offensive skills by 10 to a entire group and increase mental mitigation of the group by 300 or so. Now if a Monk was tanking with say 3 Scout class's doing DPS, because they also get 46% self haste, you have just increased there overall damage output plus your own by 9%, then there is the increase of offensive skills which is increasing your hit ratio. No other fighter class gets a Damage increase offensive buff like that except Brawler class. It is a uber group buff, especially from a RAW melee DPS point of view which is what does the grunt of damage in single group named fights and raids, because once a caster is out of power, whats he going to do?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:08 AM</span>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 07:55 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>RAW melee damage will always surpass combat arts, abilities and spells for the simple fact that its constant, no need for power usage meaning once a Caster is out of power, thats it he / she is basically useless. When you are hasted, you are increasing your RAW melee damage out put by 50%, so you are doubling it. The time it takes to cast some arts / spells you are acually losing DPS. Berserkers are a prime example of this cause our AoE arts / spells take 4 seconds to go off, and we could of done the same if not more damage to a single target encounter if we just stayed on that mob while we are hasted, so for example, with self haste and a combination of combat arts, i can get around 110 - 120 dps because my damage is constant, thats on Herioc group and <STRONG>^^</STRONG> mobs, when i use my AoE arts its taking me 4 seconds to do around 200 damage to each mob in a encounter, so if there isnt anymore then 3 mobs in a encounter, its basically useless to use them, you are acually losing DPS due to the AoE not generating the same amount of RAW DPS you would of done to a single target in that 4 seconds.</P> <P>Now when you look at the difference between a Monk and Guardian, its not that they have a close to the same amount of offensive damage arts, its the direct damage done by them that make the difference + self haste. Monks hit harder and faster to draw agro in like that to offset for the fact they have less taunts, where a Guardian has low damage offensive damage arts with debuffs tied into them which draws agro that way from the debuff portion of the art plus a wider range of taunts to offset for the lower amount of DPS he does due to no self haste, and lower damage offensive damage arts. Guardians can do upto 120 DPS no problem if going all out DPS, but then there out of power after every single fight and then that makes them a uneffcient style of DPS cause its not constant, cause they have to spam the hell out of there low damage offensive arts to make up for the fact they dont get no self haste like Monk / Bruiser / Berserkers get.</P> <P>Haste is alot more powerful then people think, especially on raids, and anything else that goes along with haste for example like the offensive buff a Monk gets, Quoite Purity, increase Damage Per Second by 9%, increase offensive skills by 10 to a entire group and increase mental mitigation of the group by 300 or so. Now if a Monk was tanking with say 3 Scout class's doing DPS, because they also get 46% self haste, you have just increased there overall damage output plus your own by 9%, then there is the increase of offensive skills which is increasing your hit ratio. No other fighter class gets a Damage increase offensive buff like that except Brawler class. It is a uber group buff, especially from a RAW melee DPS point of view which is what does the grunt of damage in single group named fights and raids, because once a caster is out of power, whats he going to do?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1) Our haste burns HP, as I've already stated, not a very good tank buff.</P> <P>But as for all the other stuff, fine and great, but none of that has anything to do with fighter archetype balance, because fighters are tanks, and that's how they should be balanced.</P> <P>We should never fill a pure DPS spot, we should fill an offtank spot, and all fighters should be able to. As I stated our DPS/utility needs to remain fairly close to each others as should our tanking ability, so as to not break the archetype or intrude on another archetype's role.</P> <P>Also its funny you compare our DPS to casters instead of scouts, who also get haste, also do melee, and in fact do more DPS than us. Why choose casters?<BR></P>

English Da Gua

03-31-2005, 08:01 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>RAW melee damage will always surpass combat arts, abilities and spells for the simple fact that its constant, no need for power usage meaning once a Caster is out of power, thats it he / she is basically useless. When you are hasted, you are increasing your RAW melee damage out put by 50%, so you are doubling it. The time it takes to cast some arts / spells you are acually losing DPS. Berserkers are a prime example of this cause our AoE arts / spells take 4 seconds to go off, and we could of done the same if not more damage to a single target encounter if we just stayed on that mob while we are hasted, so for example, with self haste and a combination of combat arts, i can get around 110 - 120 dps because my damage is constant, thats on Herioc group and <STRONG>^^</STRONG> mobs, when i use my AoE arts its taking me 4 seconds to do around 200 damage to each mob in a encounter, so if there isnt anymore then 3 mobs in a encounter, its basically useless to use them, you are acually losing DPS due to the AoE not generating the same amount of RAW DPS you would of done to a single target in that 4 seconds.</P> <P>Now when you look at the difference between a Monk and Guardian, its not that they have a close to the same amount of offensive damage arts, its the direct damage done by them that make the difference + self haste. Monks hit harder and faster to draw agro in like that to offset for the fact they have less taunts, where a Guardian has low damage offensive damage arts with debuffs tied into them which draws agro that way from the debuff portion of the art plus a wider range of taunts to offset for the lower amount of DPS he does due to no self haste, and lower damage offensive damage arts. Guardians can do upto 120 DPS no problem if going all out DPS, but then there out of power after every single fight and then that makes them a uneffcient style of DPS cause its not constant, cause they have to spam the hell out of there low damage offensive arts to make up for the fact they dont get no self haste like Monk / Bruiser / Berserkers get.</P> <P>Haste is alot more powerful then people think, especially on raids, and anything else that goes along with haste for example like the offensive buff a Monk gets, Quoite Purity, increase Damage Per Second by 9%, increase offensive skills by 10 to a entire group and increase mental mitigation of the group by 300 or so. Now if a Monk was tanking with say 3 Scout class's doing DPS, because they also get 46% self haste, you have just increased there overall damage output plus your own by 9%, then there is the increase of offensive skills which is increasing your hit ratio. No other fighter class gets a Damage increase offensive buff like that except Brawler class. It is a uber group buff, especially from a RAW melee DPS point of view which is what does the grunt of damage in single group named fights and raids, because once a caster is out of power, whats he going to do?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1) Our haste burns HP, as I've already stated, not a very good tank buff.</P> <P>But as for all the other stuff, fine and great, but none of that has anything to do with fighter archetype balance, because fighters are tanks, and that's how they should be balanced.</P> <P>We should never fill a pure DPS spot, <FONT color=#ffff00>we should fill an offtank spot</FONT>, and all fighters should be able to. As I stated our DPS/utility needs to remain fairly close to each others as should our tanking ability, so as to not break the archetype or intrude on another archetype's role.</P> <P>Also its funny you compare our DPS to casters instead of scouts, who also get haste, also do melee, and in fact do more DPS than us. Why choose casters?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> /sigh </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> There are 10-15 page threads all over this forum about just that making it a pain to find useful posts. I wish this had been said sooner bro =P</DIV>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 08:12 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> English Da Guard wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are 10-15 page threads all over this forum about just that making it a pain to find useful posts. I wish this had been said sooner bro =P <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Don't take it out of context. I'm not saying we should always offtank, I'm saying when there are two fighters and one isn't MT they should offtank, regardless of class.</P> <P>The reason I made the distinction is because he loves to talk about DPS in tanking discussions.<BR></P>

English Da Gua

03-31-2005, 08:26 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> English Da Guard wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>/sigh </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are 10-15 page threads all over this forum about just that making it a pain to find useful posts. I wish this had been said sooner bro =P <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Don't take it out of context. I'm not saying we should always offtank, I'm saying when there are two fighters and one isn't MT they should offtank, regardless of class.</P> <P>The reason I made the distinction is because he loves to talk about DPS in tanking discussions.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> LOL I know man, I had to call ya on that though. </P> <P> But, with that said, offense, like defense, is a vital part of tanking. Since we all brethen of the fighter tree we should all be trying for the same things. As is, your greater DPS is something to bring up, you yourself have said it should be toned down for greater tanking ability. I agree...in so much as your avoidance should be increased and mine should be dialed back, while granting my guardian an increase to my mitigation.<BR></P>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 10:00 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>1) Our haste burns HP, as I've already stated, not a very good tank buff.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Its 100 HP every 6 seconds Gage, you avoid enough damage to safely use that even in a tanking perspective with your 75 - 80% avoidance unbuffed. Perfect in a offtank or DPS role.</FONT></P> <P>But as for all the other stuff, fine and great, but none of that has anything to do with fighter archetype balance, because fighters are tanks, and that's how they should be balanced.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Once again, Gage twisting the discussion into something it never was and steering around the point. Do you drive a volvo by any chance Gage?. This discussion was never about class balance Gage, read the thread again, its about DPS output.</FONT></P> <P>We should never fill a pure DPS spot, we should fill an offtank spot, and all fighters should be able to. As I stated our DPS/utility needs to remain fairly close to each others as should our tanking ability, so as to not break the archetype or intrude on another archetype's role.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You dont fill a pure DPS spot, thats just <STRONG><U>your</U></STRONG> outlook on things, you make a superiour off tank with good DPS, if you want to tank, you can do that too.</FONT></P> <P>Also its funny you compare our DPS to casters instead of scouts, who also get haste, also do melee, and in fact do more DPS than us. Why choose casters?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I pointed all that you said here in this paragraph in my post. Reason im not relating you to Scouts is because i know good skilled Scouts who can do 250 DPS, so they do do more then your 160 - 200 DPS. The problem with Scouts is its not as easy as it is for a Monk to do 160 - 200 DPS, a Scout has to work 3 times harder then any class to what should, come not so much easy, but not so hard ethier, or cost consuming. Sorcerers on the other hand have it easy, cycle through a set DoT's throw in some heavy nukage and hey presto, instant 300 DPS, and there DoT's refresh even before they wear out making them easy to keep chained, and they only have to put in 30% of the effort a Scout does to pump out 250+ DPS. SoE are more then likely just assuming that every Scout out there is using posions and postioning themselves correctly, its a bit more tricker then just hit auto attack and pump out 200 - 250+ DPS, postioning, posions, combat abilities all roll into the DPS factor when playing a Scout, if you dont get them right, then you wont do the damage and you need to learn how to play your class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>There is basically 2 reasons Scouts have a right to not so much more DPS, just easier to make the number happen there fore making it more constant which is the point to RAW DPS, constant damage, they :</FONT></P> <OL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Discovered it cost to much to pump out the big numbers, cause of the price of posions and arrows, which by the way you dont <STRONG><U>NEED</U></STRONG> to use indium to push out 250 DPS, but it does make it easier. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Have to work too hard to pump out the big numbers, cause i know for a fact all the Scout work one has to do to push big numbers, can make one sweat, literally, lots of clicking, lots of moving into right postions, lots of power burning, lots of damage = big numbers. Where on the other hand, Wizards dont have to strive as hard as a Scout to push it out, they just chain dot and nuke, cause by the time there DoTs have wore of, there ready to go for another cycle, hell, wizards DoT's are ready to go again even before the DoT wears out. At the end of that, they chew a leg or arm off to recharge their power.</FONT></LI></OL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>These are the two main reasons a Scout doesnt do the required amount of DPS he should be doing in a group, its got nothing to do with they <STRONG><U>CANT</U></STRONG> do it, its all to do with they <STRONG><U>CANT</U></STRONG> afford it, or dont want to becaue it requires to much effort, and too much staying on the ball.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Do you read a entire post Gage? Do you even understand what people are talking about in this thread? Why chose casters? Cause i was refering to how RAW melee damage will always be more constant then a Casters DPS in long fights, once there power runs out, the only people doing damage is melee. Melee as in <STRONG><U>ALL</U></STRONG> the archtypes that rely on RAW melee damage as there only form of DPS, Scouts and Fighters Gage, learn how to read and use some common sense man. But wait a second, you said Scouts out damage Monks, wasnt that the other way around? I thought you have been telling us Monks out damage Scouts? Your a confusing kind of guy Gage.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why derail every single thread you post on Gage?<BR></FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P align=left>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 10:20 AM

<FONT color=#66ff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>1) Our haste burns HP, as I've already stated, not a very good tank buff.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Its 100 HP every 6 seconds Gage, you avoid enough damage to safely use that even in a tanking perspective with your 75 - 80% avoidance unbuffed. Perfect in a offtank or DPS role. </FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>Not in my opinion. Oh yeah and we don't DPS we offtank, we are fighters not scouts.</FONT></P> <P>But as for all the other stuff, fine and great, but none of that has anything to do with fighter archetype balance, because fighters are tanks, and that's how they should be balanced.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Once again, Gage twisting the discussion into something it never was and steering around the point. Do you drive a volvo by any chance Gage?. This discussion was never about class balance Gage, read the thread again, its about DPS output. </FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>Heh.</FONT></P> <P>We should never fill a pure DPS spot, we should fill an offtank spot, and all fighters should be able to. As I stated our DPS/utility needs to remain fairly close to each others as should our tanking ability, so as to not break the archetype or intrude on another archetype's role.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>You dont fill a pure DPS spot, thats just <STRONG><U>your</U></STRONG> outlook on things, you make a superiour off tank with good DPS, if you want to tank, you can do that too. </FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>All tanks can make superior offtanks as well as tank, that's archetype balance. Thanks for pointing that out though.</FONT></P> <P>Also its funny you compare our DPS to casters instead of scouts, who also get haste, also do melee, and in fact do more DPS than us. Why choose casters?</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I pointed all that you said here in this paragraph in my post. Reason im not relating you to Scouts is because i know good skilled Scouts who can do 250 DPS, so they do do more then your 160 - 200 DPS. The problem with Scouts is its not as easy as it is for a Monk to do 160 - 200 DPS, a Scout has to work 3 times harder then any class to what should, come not so much easy, but not so hard ethier, or cost consuming. Sorcerers on the other hand have it easy, cycle through a set DoT's throw in some heavy nukage and hey presto, instant 300 DPS, and there DoT's refresh even before they wear out making them easy to keep chained, and they only have to put in 30% of the effort a Scout does to pump out 250+ DPS. SoE are more then likely just assuming that every Scout out there is using posions and postioning themselves correctly, its a bit more tricker then just hit auto attack and pump out 200 - 250+ DPS, postioning, posions, combat abilities all roll into the DPS factor when playing a Scout, if you dont get them right, then you wont do the damage and you need to learn how to play your class. </FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>You need to learn how to play any class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>There is basically 2 reasons Scouts have a right to not so much more DPS, just easier to make the number happen there fore making it more constant which is the point to RAW DPS, constant damage, they :</FONT></P> <OL> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Discovered it cost to much to pump out the big numbers, cause of the price of posions and arrows, which by the way you dont <STRONG><U>NEED</U></STRONG> to use indium to push out 250 DPS, but it does make it easier. </FONT></LI> <LI><FONT color=#ffff00>Have to work too hard to pump out the big numbers, cause i know for a fact all the Scout work one has to do to push big numbers, can make one sweat, literally, lots of clicking, lots of moving into right postions, lots of power burning, lots of damage = big numbers. Where on the other hand, Wizards dont have to strive as hard as a Scout to push it out, they just chain dot and nuke, cause by the time there DoTs have wore of, there ready to go for another cycle, hell, wizards DoT's are ready to go again even before the DoT wears out. At the end of that, they chew a leg or arm off to recharge their power.</FONT></LI></OL> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>These are the two main reasons a Scout doesnt do the required amount of DPS he should be doing in a group, its got nothing to do with they <STRONG><U>CANT</U></STRONG> do it, its all to do with they <STRONG><U>CANT</U></STRONG> afford it, or dont want to becaue it requires to much effort, and too much staying on the ball. </FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>Yeah I know your opinion on scouts, I read it when you were validating fighter DPS in a bid to make sure zerkers stay at the top of the heap.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Do you read a entire post Gage? Do you even understand what people are talking about in this thread? Why chose casters? Cause i was refering to how RAW melee damage will always be more constant then a Casters DPS in long fights, once there power runs out, the only people doing damage is melee. Melee as in <STRONG><U>ALL</U></STRONG> the archtypes that rely on RAW melee damage as there only form of DPS, Scouts and Fighters Gage, learn how to read and use some common sense man. But wait a second, you said Scouts out damage Monks, wasnt that the other way around? I thought you have been telling us Monks out damage Scouts? Your a confusing kind of guy Gage. </FONT><FONT color=#66ff00>Fighters can outdamage scouts, and scouts can outdamage us, although its intended that they always outdamage us.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Why derail every single thread you post on Gage? <FONT color=#66ff00>Must be my lack of skill with my childhood train tracks bleeding through onto the forums.</FONT></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>By the way, the post is about guardian vs bruiser tanking, and why the bruisers suckiness at tanking is okay, read the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thing:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> seudainx wrote:<BR>29 Guardian and 28 Bruiser here. My thoughts: <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Guardians are not overpowered: You give up all hopes of any dps to be a <FONT size=4>walking tank</FONT> whats wrong with that?</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>Bruisers are not a pure tank class:</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00><FONT size=4>You give up some ability to tank</FONT> </FONT>for very decent dps, the ability to one shot heal yourself a decent fear and a feign death. <FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>I wouldnt want my bruiser to tank as well as my guardian, why play a guardian then? <BR></FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>If there are some problems with the way the end game is <FONT size=4>tanked,</FONT></FONT> maybe raid encounters need to be looked at. As far as grouping goes I do not see any problems. If they start tossing nerfs around like silly this will require the holy trinity for groups like eqI did/does. Cleric/Warrior/Enc. Finding a healer can be tough as it is now, because honestly who wants to be a cleric type.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, I derailed the thread. Once again it is a thread trying to validate tanking ability by talking about DPS. Thanks. <BR><BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-30-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:22 PM</span>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 11:22 AM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <FONT color=#66ff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Not in my opinion. Oh yeah and we don't DPS we offtank, we are fighters not scouts.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Again taking it out of context, but now your saying you offtank when you said your primary is Tank?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>All tanks can make superior offtanks as well as tank, that's archetype balance. Thanks for pointing that out though.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Be realistic for once Gage, Monks make the superiour offtank cause there ability to do RAW melee DPS which is more then the entire Fighter class.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Yeah I know your opinion on scouts, I read it when you were validating fighter DPS in a bid to make sure zerkers stay at the top of the heap.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>My opion is Scouts should out DPS the fighter class with <STRONG><U>more ease</U></STRONG> [Removed for Content], just like i used Sorcerers as a example on how easy it is for them to do 300 DPS, which in turn will make it more constant, im acually sticking up for the Scout DPS increase, but once again Gage proving he knows nothing about what he even says let alone cant see the points put in front of his face or understand a well thought out and well directed post.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#66ff00>Fighters can outdamage scouts, and scouts can outdamage us, although its intended that they always outdamage us.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#33ccff>Which is the reason they should be able to do the high numbers easier, read the above again, slowly this time.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>By the way, the post is about guardian vs bruiser tanking, and why the bruisers suckiness at tanking is okay, read the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] thing:</P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> seudainx wrote:<BR>29 Guardian and 28 Bruiser here. My thoughts: <BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>Guardians are not overpowered: You give up all hopes of any dps to be a <FONT size=4>walking tank</FONT> whats wrong with that?</FONT> <BR><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>Bruisers are not a pure tank class:</FONT> <FONT color=#ffff00><FONT size=4>You give up some ability to tank</FONT> </FONT>for very decent dps, the ability to one shot heal yourself a decent fear and a feign death. <FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>I wouldnt want my bruiser to tank as well as my guardian, why play a guardian then? <BR></FONT><BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>If there are some problems with the way the end game is <FONT size=4>tanked,</FONT></FONT> maybe raid encounters need to be looked at. As far as grouping goes I do not see any problems. If they start tossing nerfs around like silly this will require the holy trinity for groups like eqI did/does. Cleric/Warrior/Enc. Finding a healer can be tough as it is now, because honestly who wants to be a cleric type.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, I derailed the thread. Once again it is a thread trying to validate tanking ability by talking about DPS. Thanks.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>I know how it started numbnuts, did you see the path the thread went? I was acually refering to Familymans series of posts he started. You derailed it with your preaching about class balance in reguards to every one should be close to the same DPS with in each Archtype, when a few weeks ago you were soild for " Guardians avoid too much, there going to fix it, deal with it ", now your all for class balance.</FONT></P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4></FONT> <P> <HR> <P></P> <P> </P> <P>If Class balance is what people REALLY want, which you can see some do and some clearly only want things there way reguardless of how it gets done, then adjust Plate class from avoiding so much, bump up there mitigation to balance the lose of avoidance and give Guardians a self Haste spell, fix buff stacking, iron out the Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells and everything should be balanced then. </P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Problem with Gages notion of balance is, alot of Monks / Brusiers are happy having the <STRONG><U>choice</U></STRONG> of ethier being a superiour off tank or a straight out Tank because there is a very very few that are even remotely interested in tanking high end raid content, if they nerf Monk / Bruiser DPS to fall in line with the rest of the plate class, then there is going to be more [Removed for Content] of Monks / Bruisers then there is Monks / Bruisers thinking that the way things are now, are unbalanced, i can assure you Gage. Now in this little fantasy world of yours Gage, where does class utility fall into all this or should we just all get the same DPS, same utility but just a different looks and graphical fighting style? Seeing as you think the difference with in each class comes down to flavour and style Gage which is a very limited and small view i might add. I like to pay to play a game where no one is Diverese and there is only 4 chars to chose from, NOT.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>So just like the OP stated Gage :</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>I wouldnt want my bruiser to tank as well as my guardian, why play a guardian then?</FONT></P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P></DIV>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 01:08 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yeah, I derailed the thread. Once again it is a thread trying to validate tanking ability by talking about DPS. Thanks.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>I know how it started numbnuts, did you see the path the thread went? I was acually refering to Familymans series of posts he started. You derailed it with your preaching about class balance in reguards to every one should be close to the same DPS with in each Archtype, when a few weeks ago you were soild for " Guardians avoid too much, there going to fix it, deal with it ", now your all for class balance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>So guess what that means? It means someone else derailed the thread from its original intent, sir. So don't flame me for commenting on the original poster's post instead of the tangent you and others took it off on. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yeah I said they should lower guardian avoidance (and all plate tanks). You must've missed the multiple posts where I said to up their mitigation though. Go figure.</FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>If Class balance is what people REALLY want, which you can see some do and some clearly only want things there way reguardless of how it gets done, then adjust Plate class from avoiding so much, bump up there mitigation to balance the lose of avoidance and give Guardians a self Haste spell, fix buff stacking, iron out the Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells and everything should be balanced then. <FONT color=#ffff00>Do whatever it tanks for the classes to be totally interchangeable. Contrary to popular opinion that can be acheived without them being identical.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Problem with Gages notion of balance is, alot of Monks / Brusiers are happy having the <STRONG><U>choice</U></STRONG> of ethier being a superiour off tank or a straight out Tank because there is a very very few that are even remotely interested in tanking high end raid content, if they nerf Monk / Bruiser DPS to fall in line with the rest of the plate class, then there is going to be more [Removed for Content] of Monks / Bruisers then there is Monks / Bruisers thinking that the way things are now, are unbalanced, i can assure you Gage. Now in this little fantasy world of yours Gage, where does class utility fall into all this or should we just all get the same DPS, same utility but just a different looks and graphical fighting style? Seeing as you think the difference with in each class comes down to flavour and style Gage which is a very limited and small view i might add. I like to pay to play a game where no one is Diverese and there is only 4 chars to chose from, NOT. </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Why wouldn't they be happy? They can fill two roles. What other class can do that? When scouts could tank they got nerfed. Plus you conviently forget to mention a lot of the monk/bruiser posters are from EQ1 or other games where melee fighters were DPS. Imagine then that they would want to do DPS. I don't see you commenting on the pro DPS monks that have read posts from me and others who now enjoy tanking and have changed their stance and feel we should be balanced as tanks. Its funny how only the people who agree with you matter. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As for "even more [Removed for Content] off monks." /shrug. You can't please everybody. There are plenty of games where the "kung fu" class isn't a tank, unfortunately this isn't it.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Class utility and DPS should all be leveraged agaisnt the other classes to ensure interchangeability while being different. There is a threshold that the devs should hold the damage/defense/utility to, to ensure that adding flavor/style to the classes doesn't push it to far away from the archetype's primary ability *OR* intrude on another archetype's role.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>It may be a "limited and small" view in your opinion, but the developers designed it, not me. I just see the benefits of it and enjoy playing a game based on that type of system, versus one that causes unbalanced power "flavor of the month" classes. Where to be successful and needed you have to be that type of class/character/template.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I'm sorry if you don't like to pay to play a game based on archetypes, not every game can please everyone. Fortunately for you there are games out there based on classes and individual class roles and abilities. Perhaps something like that would suit your playstyle better.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>So just like the OP stated Gage :</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00 size=4>I wouldnt want my bruiser to tank as well as my guardian, why play a guardian then? <FONT color=#ff0000>For heavy armor, for defensive buffs, for the highest HP, for mitigation. I've heard this arguement many times, but it doesn't hold water. How about the inverse? If the guardian is the best tank, why play any other fighters? None of our utility is needed by raids/groups and our damage can be beaten by two entire archetypes. If there is a "best" no need for the rest.</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>People choose guardian because they like the style of the class. The shields, the defense, the armor, the HP. They want to be as defensive as possible.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>Just as people choose monk, bruiser, sk, pally, zerker for different reasons that they enjoy. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff0000 size=4>The beauty of this system is that you do *NOT* have to be a guardian in order to be a good MT. You can choose the class under fighter that best appeals to your style.</FONT></P> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

Romp

03-31-2005, 01:29 PM

<P>What concerns me is the comparison between +5 def gain being the same as gaining a level, correct me if I am wrong but we gain FAR more than +5 defense each time we level in terms of Mittigation, block, parry, rippose etc not to mention stat gains, and I have seen no evidence yet that rules out other factors relating to level difference when calculating to hit based on level. </P> <P>I would like to see parses that evaluate the effect of +defense done by ONLY changing the defense value (not mob level etc) and I am willing to bet you will see a MUCH more marginal effect. I am sure buffs can be manipulated to allow a +5 Def disparity so that the ONLY deviation between parses is the defense value and the parses can then be performed against equivalent opponents.</P>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 03:00 PM

<P>Tell us why you chose a Monk Gage and be truthful, no BS. I have read two posts of yours around here some where, im not looking for them cause you have too many to sift through, i mean you have the most post on the entire forum out of anyone, even mods and devs, but i read that you chose a Monk because of what you read on the BETA descriptions PLUS you wanted to be a Tiger. Now i ask you this, why would you roll a character knowing too well that BETA is BETA, and can never compare what it does in beta in live release, they make changes that dont even get added to BETA before the game accually launchs live, or ninja nerf things and change things when BETA comes down and they prepare for LIVE, so i ask again, why would you roll a char, after you yourself BETA tested EQ2, and rolled a Monk from the Description you got from BETA of what and how a monk works? Also, did you play a Monk during BETA? And what was a Monk like to play during BETA? Does it represent what it does now like it did in BETA? Has anything changed?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

ugl

03-31-2005, 07:28 PM

<P><FONT size=4><FONT color=#ffff00> </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>For heavy armor, for defensive buffs, for the highest HP, for mitigation</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=4>Lets point out the obvious. Those advantages to defense mean jack and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if the DPS tanks can tank just as well. If a brawler can tank as well as a guardian, those are not advantages to playing a guardian. If your going to tank like a guardian, your offense skills are going to have to be thrown out and be out on the same level as the guardian. Your also going to have to cough up that mend and FD and safefall as well, and maybe they can give you the sentinal line.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>If you are going to tank equally, your going to DPS equally. Otherwise, it will be unbalanced.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=4>And yes, he played monks in beta, seen "super fighter" written all over them, and went with it. He wanted the best DPS and equal tanking if not better tanking. He knew monks were overpowered bigtime. Then came the agility nerf. And he has been screaming ever since, as he no longer feels his class is superman. He wants that back. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4></FONT> </P> <p>Message Edited by uglak on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>06:32 AM</span>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 07:34 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P><FONT size=4><FONT color=#ffff00> </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>For heavy armor, for defensive buffs, for the highest HP, for mitigation</FONT></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=4>Lets point out the obvious. Those advantages to defense mean jack and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if the DPS tanks can tank just as well. If a brawler can tank as well as a guardian, those are not advantages to playing a guardian. If your going to tank like a guardian, your offense skills are going to have to be thrown out and be out on the same level as the guardian. Your also going to have to cough up that mend and FD and safefall as well, and maybe they can give you the sentinal line.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4>If you are going to tank equally, your going to DPS equally. Otherwise, it will be unbalanced.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=4></FONT> </P> <P><FONT size=4>And yes, he played monks in beta, seen "super fighter" written all over them, and went with it. He wanted the best DPS and equal tanking if not better tanking. He knew monks were overpowered bigtime. Then came the agility nerf. And he has been screaming ever since, as he no longer feels his class is superman. He wants that back. </FONT></P> <P><FONT size=4></FONT> </P> <P>Message Edited by uglak on <SPAN class=date_text>03-31-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>06:32 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>My point exactally, thanks Uglak.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

Banditman

03-31-2005, 07:59 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR><BR>Thanks, Banditman, for the numbers. I find it fascinating that your 45 Guardian friend was able to pump out that DPS. At first blush it looks like haste really makes a DPS difference. That is surprising since I believe that about 60% of Fighters' damage comes from Combat Arts which, as I understand it, aren't affected by haste. Or am I incorrect?<BR><BR><BR>Edited for clarity. <P>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <SPAN class=date_text>03-30-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>04:27 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>My Guardian friend is RELIGIOUS about keeping his abilities all at Adept 1 OR BETTER. He has MANY Adept 3 abilities, and I'm sure this helps him a ton.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>His 110 - 120 DPS average was something he could sustain over 10 pulls without stopping to regain power. Granted, we had a high level, talented Illusionist keeping us all Breeze'ed so even the 15 -20 seconds between pulls brought us a LOT of power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again, keep in mind that these mobs were not a threat. He was able to use all his abilities on offense, and only one taunt at the beginning to secure aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night we did Permafrost, and his DPS dropped way off when he went to sword and board. These mobs WERE a threat and yellow to most of us, occasionally orange to me at L44. We had high DPS players with us, and he was forced to taunt far more often and consistently through the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He probably averaged 60-70 DPS last night, though I didn't go back and add it up. Our group DPS was running in the 450 range, group was Guardian, Illusionist, Swashbuckler, Monk, Mystic, Templar. The Monk and Swashy were doing about 275 - 300 between them (they were 47ish), and they seemed fairly equal to me, neither one really out DPS'ing the other, but often flip flopping for highest DPS on any given fight.</DIV>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 08:03 PM

<P>Illusionists also have a good Haste spell too though, dont forget to think about that.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

Banditman

03-31-2005, 08:29 PM

<P>I'm certainly not taking it for granted, but honestly the haste wasn't that big a portion of his DPS. Haste doesn't affect your CA recast timers. I know that his peak DPS was while he was using some big [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] axe. Sorry, I don't know what it is, but it's [Removed for Content] huge. </P>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 09:04 PM

<P>Sorry i wasnt refering to the tank DPS, i was refering to the Monk and Swashy you had doing a huge amount of DPS, its because Haste buffs stack, Self haste and Spell haste both stack.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

Banditman

03-31-2005, 09:32 PM

Sure, it helped them, but I suppose it helped everyone equally. Everyone had it.

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 09:53 PM

<P>Melee wise yes, Haste only effects melee DPS, it doesnt effect CA timers, watch the cast timer with and with out haste, nothing changes, where STR and other buffs will change certain values on certain style CA's for certain Class's.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 09:59 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Tell us why you chose a Monk Gage and be truthful, no BS.</FONT> I have read two posts of yours around here some where, im not looking for them cause you have too many to sift through, i mean you have the most post on the entire forum out of anyone, even mods and devs, but i read that you chose a Monk because of what you read on the BETA descriptions PLUS you wanted to be a Tiger. Now i ask you this, why would you roll a character knowing too well that BETA is BETA, and can never compare what it does in beta in live release, they make changes that dont even get added to BETA before the game accually launchs live, or ninja nerf things and change things when BETA comes down and they prepare for LIVE, so i ask again, why would you roll a char, after you yourself BETA tested EQ2, and rolled a Monk from the Description you got from BETA of what and how a monk works? Also, did you play a Monk during BETA? And what was a Monk like to play during BETA? Does it represent what it does now like it did in BETA? Has anything changed?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Because I got to 19 brawler in beta and from all the class descriptions I liked monk/assassin the best, and I wanted to get to 50 first and didn't want to betray. </P> <P>Now go ahead and tell me since I liked the monk/assassin the best that I picked monk for DPS please, because I'm sure you're going to do that.</P> <P>Also, in beta and early live, I thought bards were the stupidest class anyone could play. Now I have one at 26. So that goes to show what two weeks of beta will get you, other than a headstart on 20. But anyway. The "tiger" remark was sarcasm, its amazing what you guys will believe though.</P> <P>Yes, plenty of stuff about playing monk has changed, but not our role. Moorgard just posted about that to reaffirm AGAIN before these latest defensive nerf threads started.<BR></P>

MoonglumHMV

03-31-2005, 10:01 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Sorry i wasnt refering to the tank DPS, i was refering to the Monk and Swashy you had doing a huge amount of DPS, its because Haste buffs stack, Self haste and Spell haste both stack.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Just to make sure I understand...when it was said 275-300 <EM>between</EM> then...I assume he was talking 140-150 each, right? <BR>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 10:10 PM

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> uglak wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ff0000>For heavy armor, for defensive buffs, for the highest HP, for mitigation</FONT></P> <P>Lets point out the obvious.<FONT color=#ffff00> Those advantages to defense mean jack and [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] if the DPS tanks can tank just as well.</FONT> If a brawler can tank as well as a guardian, those are not advantages to playing a guardian. If your going to tank like a guardian, your offense skills are going to have to be thrown out and be out on the same level as the guardian. Your also going to have to cough up that mend and FD and safefall as well, and maybe they can give you the sentinal line.</P> <P>If you are going to tank equally, your going to DPS equally. Otherwise, it will be unbalanced.</P> <P>And yes, he played monks in beta, seen "super fighter" written all over them, and went with it. He wanted the best DPS and equal tanking if not better tanking. He knew monks were overpowered bigtime. Then came the agility nerf. And he has been screaming ever since, as he no longer feels his class is superman. He wants that back.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ha Ha! Really? That always gets thrown in my face about raids. "NO MATTER WHAT SOE DOES YOU'LL NEVER BE CHOSEN FOR RAID MT BECAUSE OF YOUR LOWER HP AND LESS MITIGATION!!" "EVASION IS TOO STREAKY, IN THE END GUARDIANS ARE BEST BECAUSE OF BLAH BLAH BLAH".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let me get this straight. They don't mean jack anything or they are the difference between a raid tank and a non-raid tank? Don't you guardians preach all day about how you chose the class for defense instead of DPS? Now you are telling me that it doesn't matter? Which is it, make up your minds already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, DPS = taunts. The better taunts the lower DPS (guardians) the better DPS the lower taunts (bruiser).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We aren't going to tank like you. We are going to evade. You are going to mitigate. Difference. Just our tanking ability for the group/raid will be on par with yours (so will every other fighter, thus archetype balance). The *way* we do it is different, the *style* we have is different, the *job* done is the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You can have safe fall and FD for all I care, and mend is worthless. Want our invis too?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Neg. We are going to tank equally, that isn't unbalancing. You will however taunt better, that's the DPS trade-off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, I didn't play a monk in beta, I got to like 19.6 before beta ended. I got in at the end, from some fileshack contest. I don't know how I saw "super fighter" written on anything, since I was only a 19 brawler who mostly solo'd. There we go with your DPS envy. I thought guardians didn't care about it? Which is it? Besides quit acting like its a huge difference, it isn't. I did? I wasn't even a monk, and my only beta experience with a monk was a dev twinked lvl 50 from Gnomercy, who killed some lvl 14 klicknik mites for me so I could see the animation. I did ask him about the end game though and he said "I dunno if we can tank end game stuff, my guild uses a guardian." Go figure eh, high end EQ1 testing guild. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The agility nerf was mainly a repercussion against scouts, although it hurt us. The devs were quick to patch in mitigation for us to make sure we could still tank. Oh yeah, and your 11% increase was because agility affected you too, smart guy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HAHAHAHA. You are so right. I'm sitting here saying my class should be the only raid MT because... oh wait, that's not me, that's your class. You want to ensure you get the only raid MT spot so that you always get guild/raid/group invites. It'd be a nice niche wouldn't it? I mean a raid w/o a guardian failing because only guardians can MT raid stuff? That's what you want, you just try to hide it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for me being superman, yup. That's why I fight so hard for equality among all the subclasses in an archetype, because I want to be the best. Oh wait, if I get what I want, which is true interchangeability and balance, then all fighters would be superman, cuz we'd all be just as effective at doing our job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quit assuming guys, its clear you don't know anything about me.<BR></DIV>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 10:10 PM

<P>Well i havent seen any monks that can do 275 - 300 DPS let alone Swashys, yet, so yeah id say thats what he means, well thats how i took it also. If he means they were doing 275 - 300 DPS each, then......</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

uzhiel feathered serpe

03-31-2005, 10:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE dir=ltr> <DIV><FONT size=4><FONT color=#ffff00> </FONT></FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=3><U>"wouldnt want my bruiser to tank as well as my guardian, why play a guardian then? For heavy armor, for defensive buffs, for the highest HP, for mitigation. I've heard this arguement many times, but it doesn't hold water. How about the inverse? If the guardian is the best tank, why play any other fighters? None of our utility is needed by raids/groups and our damage can be beaten by two entire archetypes. If there is a "best" no need for the rest."</U></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Quote from Gage.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>While I believe that guards to have the best miti/eva combo of any tank, I dont particularly think that they make other tanks obsolete. As a lvl 50 Paladin I have tanked raid mobs on many occasions, when the guild MT went LD or when he wasnt logged on, and while I did need a few more heals it had to do more with his gear than with the char type. Palies get +def buffs too, maybe not as many as guards, but enough.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>My personal pref is to off tank and to use utility. I am alot more useful in this manner than to MT. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I'll put it this way.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I can heal, rez, ward, buff, and DPS...alot better than a guard. Why not use those strengths on a raid? Why would you reverse that? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>There have been times when we raided Venekor or Vox that the AE took out 3 or 4 healers, but not me, due to my HP's. I just ran back in and combat rezzed them, healed them, and sent them back in.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>The guard would never have been able to do that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>The MT has ONE job...to take as much damage as possible and live. We took a guard, threw the BEST possible gear on him, and made him the MT. You guys should see his gear. Almost every piece is a master armor drop.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Why? because I KNOW in my heart of hearts that I am more useful to my guild as utility/DPS.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I made it to 50 just fine tanking raid/ non-raid...and now we are in the end game. We have a guild of 98% lvl 50 players. Raids are not about who is gonna be the MT. There are soooo many raids that require strategy/placement/ and luck that the last thing we need to do is worry about who is going to be the MT</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>I still believe other tank classes could use a little help in a couple of areas, but I also think that if you take away the ONE thing that makes guards shine would be cruel. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT size=3>Their specialty is tanking raid mobs. Let them be.</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by uzhiel feathered serpent on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:15 AM</span>

MoonglumHMV

03-31-2005, 10:14 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Well i havent seen any monks that can do 275 - 300 DPS let alone Swashys, yet, so yeah id say thats what he means, well thats how i took it also. If he means they were doing 275 - 300 DPS each, then......</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Ok...I was just confused when you said something about haste and the "huge DPS" from the swashy and Monk...just wanted to make sure I was reading that right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 10:15 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quit assuming guys, its clear you don't know anything about me.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Except that you drive a Volvo.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR></P>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 10:24 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quit assuming guys, its clear you don't know anything about me.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Except that you drive a Volvo.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I prefer japanese cars, always have. Mitsubishi Eclipse, Honda CR-X Si, Mitsubishi Lancer Evo VIII. I'm not into european cars. Sorry.<BR>

-Aonein-

03-31-2005, 10:26 PM

<P>You dont like Toyota's?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 10:27 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Tell us why you chose a Monk Gage and be truthful, no BS. I have read two posts of yours around here some where, im not looking for them cause you have too many to sift through, <FONT color=#ffff00>i mean you have the most post on the entire forum out of anyone</FONT>, even mods and devs</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Actually there are at least two guys in the OTF that have over 3,000 and some other guy has over 5,000. So I don't have the most on the entire forum <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR>

Gaige

03-31-2005, 10:28 PM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>You dont like Toyota's?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>I like twin turbo Supra's and turbo MR2s, but I'm not a big rear wheel drive fan. I prefer all-wheel drive even though its more maintenance. I like to drag race and you just can't beat a good 0-60 time from AWD, even on street tires. /shrug<BR></DIV>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 12:51 AM

Aonein, Gage, please. You've got lots of other threads to argue class balance in, heck I'll even throw my 2c in, but not on this thread, okay? Let's keep this one on Guardian DPS.Now, Aonein, about that post of yours from late yesterday afternoon:<blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<P>RAW melee damage will always surpass combat arts, abilities and spells for the simple fact that its constant, no need for power usage meaning once a Caster is out of power, thats it he / she is basically useless.</P><hr></blockquote>I've found DPS when OOP to be rare. Occasionally a fight will go longer than you expect, you'll get an add that takes a while to kill, or you'll make a bad judgement call and pull before you're quite ready but a large majority of DPS is a combination of "base" DPS and CA DPS. While I haven't done a long raid fight, I'd expect any serious raid leader to include an Enchanter or some other who can keep Power flowing.<blockquote><hr><P>When you are hasted, you are increasing your RAW melee damage out put by 50%, so you are doubling it.</P><hr></blockquote>Increasing DPS by 50% is not doubling it. It's increasing it by half-again, i.e. 100 DPS to 150 DPS. Increasing DPS by 100% is doubling it.<blockquote><hr><P>The time it takes to cast some arts / spells you are acually losing DPS. Berserkers are a prime example of this cause our AoE arts / spells take 4 seconds to go off, and we could of done the same if not more damage to a single target encounter if we just stayed on that mob while we are hasted, so for example, with self haste and a combination of combat arts, i can get around 110 - 120 dps because my damage is constant, thats on Herioc group and <STRONG>^^</STRONG> mobs, when i use my AoE arts its taking me 4 seconds to do around 200 damage to each mob in a encounter, so if there isnt anymore then 3 mobs in a encounter, its basically useless to use them, you are acually losing DPS due to the AoE not generating the same amount of RAW DPS you would of done to a single target in that 4 seconds.</P><hr></blockquote>Okay, so AOE attacks typically cut down your DPS due to long casting times. I can see that.<blockquote><hr><P>Now when you look at the difference between a Monk and Guardian, its not that they have a close to the same amount of offensive damage arts, its the direct damage done by them that make the difference + self haste. Monks hit harder and faster to draw agro in like that to offset for the fact they have less taunts, where a Guardian has low damage offensive damage arts with debuffs tied into them which draws agro that way from the debuff portion of the art plus a wider range of taunts to offset for the lower amount of DPS he does due to no self haste, and lower damage offensive damage arts. Guardians can do upto 120 DPS no problem if going all out DPS, but then there out of power after every single fight and then that makes them a uneffcient style of DPS cause its not constant, cause they have to spam the hell out of there low damage offensive arts to make up for the fact they dont get no self haste like Monk / Bruiser / Berserkers get.</P><hr></blockquote>Ahem, Monks' and Guardians' "raw" or "base" damage is the <b>same</b>, Aonein, all things being equal. A Monk with a staff hits for the same damage and at the same speed as a Guardian. Indeed, when you factor in Strength a Guardian will typically hit harder than a Monk as Guardians' gear typically favors Strength more than Monks' gear. It's only when you factor in Monks' self-haste buffs that the "base" damage changes in favor of Monks, although I don't know how much.Looking at CAs a majority of Monks' offensive CAs have their own special effects that build hate. Since I don't have a Guardian I can't compare the damage of Monks' and Guardians' CAs at equivalent proficiency and level; does anyone want to post what the effects and damage of offensive CAs of Guardians do when they con white? I imagine we could get Gage and other high-level Monks to post similar data for Monks' CAs.Also, Aonein, a Monk does not achieve his DPS in a vacuum. It costs the Monk Power, and plenty of it, to achieve the kind of DPS numbers people like to throw around. A Monk can't sustain that kind of DPS without running OOP either. I don't mind comparing <i>sustainable</i> DPS between Monks and Guardians but let's make sure we're comparing apples to apples, hmmm?<blockquote><hr><P>Haste is alot more powerful then people think, especially on raids, and anything else that goes along with haste for example like the offensive buff a Monk gets, Quoite Purity, increase Damage Per Second by 9%, increase offensive skills by 10 to a entire group and increase mental mitigation of the group by 300 or so. Now if a Monk was tanking with say 3 Scout class's doing DPS, because they also get 46% self haste, you have just increased there overall damage output plus your own by 9%, then there is the increase of offensive skills which is increasing your hit ratio. No other fighter class gets a Damage increase offensive buff like that except Brawler class. It is a uber group buff, especially from a RAW melee DPS point of view which is what does the grunt of damage in single group named fights and raids, because once a caster is out of power, whats he going to do?</P><hr></blockquote>Come one, Aonein, you're smarter than this. Quiet Purity (or, what QP is <i>supposed</i> to be) is quite similar to Tides of War (or, at least, what ToW is <i>supposed</i> to be).<UL><LI>Quiet Purity (Adept III) buffs group DPS by 9%, increases offensive skills of the group by 10, and is supposed to increase the mental Mitigation of the Monk by 267 (it's currently bugged to increase mental Mitigation of the group).</LI><LI>Tides of War (Adept III) is supposed to increase offensive skills of the group by 10 (currently it's bugged to only affect the Berserker), hastes the Berserker, and casts Berserk on the Berserker.</LI><LI>For that matter, the Guardian's Call to Battle increases offensive skills of the group by <b>12</b> and increases the Parry skill of the Guardian. Paladins and SKs get similar buffs at the same level (Call to Glory and Insatiable Hunger).</LI></UL>Perhaps QP is a tad overpowered by granting the group <i>both</i> 10 offensive skill points and 9% DPS increase, but that's arguable. If so it's easily fixed: just add the 9% DPS to the Monk.Finally, I'm not yet convinced that "base" DPS is such a large portion of overall DPS nor that haste has such a large effect on DPS. I'm willing to be convinced but only by parsed numbers, not by arguments.

ugl

04-01-2005, 12:58 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Ha Ha! Really? That always gets thrown in my face about raids. "NO MATTER WHAT SOE DOES YOU'LL NEVER BE CHOSEN FOR RAID MT BECAUSE OF YOUR LOWER HP AND LESS MITIGATION!!" "EVASION IS TOO STREAKY, IN THE END GUARDIANS ARE BEST BECAUSE OF BLAH BLAH BLAH".</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So let me get this straight. They don't mean jack anything or they are the difference between a raid tank and a non-raid tank? Don't you guardians preach all day about how you chose the class for defense instead of DPS? Now you are telling me that it doesn't matter? Which is it, make up your minds already.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>You got a learning disablity or something. They make a difference right NOW becaue you cannot tank equal to a guardian. But, if you could tank equal to a guardian, they would NOT give us a perk. Because they are abilities that make us tank batter. IF we are EQUAL at tanking, then they would NOT be a advantage. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also, DPS = taunts. The better taunts the lower DPS (guardians) the better DPS the lower taunts (bruiser).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>Where do you pull this crap out of? I think we know, straight outa your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. Since your disability continues to shine through, I will break it down for you. DPS and TANKING gives you two roles for getting groups. The role of TANK, and the role of DPS. Even if yer BS was true, how many people or going to get invited to a group for a slot other then a tank, because they got taunts? Weak, weak arguments. But, you repeat them over and over. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We aren't going to tank like you. We are going to evade. You are going to mitigate. Difference. Just our tanking ability for the group/raid will be on par with yours (so will every other fighter, thus archetype balance). The *way* we do it is different, the *style* we have is different, the *job* done is the same.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>If you are going to TANK equally, we are going to have to have equal DPS. Thats just the way it is, otherwise it will be a unbalance. But you know that. So why do we got to repeat it to you over and over? Because your a troll?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <DIV>You can have safe fall and FD for all I care, and mend is worthless. Want our invis too?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>Yes, we do. and you can enjoy your sentinal line of spells. Your really going to like them I think. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Neg. We are going to tank equally, that isn't unbalancing. You will however taunt better, that's the DPS trade-off.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>DPS is not a trade off for taunting. Glad it is in Gauges world.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>No, I didn't play a monk in beta, I got to like 19.6 before beta ended. I got in at the end, from some fileshack contest. I don't know how I saw "super fighter" written on anything, since I was only a 19 brawler who mostly solo'd. There we go with your DPS envy. I thought guardians didn't care about it? Which is it? Besides quit acting like its a huge difference, it isn't. I did? I wasn't even a monk, and my only beta experience with a monk was a dev twinked lvl 50 from Gnomercy, who killed some lvl 14 klicknik mites for me so I could see the animation. I did ask him about the end game though and he said "I dunno if we can tank end game stuff, my guild uses a guardian." Go figure eh, high end EQ1 testing guild. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The agility nerf was mainly a repercussion against scouts, although it hurt us. The devs were quick to patch in mitigation for us to make sure we could still tank. Oh yeah, and your 11% increase was because agility affected you too, smart guy.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>HAHAHAHA. You are so right. I'm sitting here saying my class should be the only raid MT because... oh wait, that's not me, that's your class. You want to ensure you get the only raid MT spot so that you always get guild/raid/group invites. It'd be a nice niche wouldn't it? I mean a raid w/o a guardian failing because only guardians can MT raid stuff? That's what you want, you just try to hide it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>The only reason you cannot tank raid mobs is because you dont have a guild, or you stink at tanking. Sorry, Brawlers, Paladins, SKs have all shown they can tank raid mobs. </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for me being superman, yup. That's why I fight so hard for equality among all the subclasses in an archetype, because I want to be the best. Oh wait, if I get what I want, which is true interchangeability and balance, then all fighters would be superman, cuz we'd all be just as effective at doing our job.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>Yes, apparantly, Moorguard is going to make you better able at tanking. Enjoy losing your spot as a DPS class, becauce your DPS is going to have to become equivilant of a guardians. That means, in a nutshell, your going to now compete with all other fighters for one group spot. You are going to LOSE you DPS spot. So, enjoy your LFG tag, cause you are all going to be wearing it alot.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Quit assuming guys, its clear you don't know anything about me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff33>We know plenty about you. Mainly, your a troll. But also, your a immature troll with plenty of free time on his hands. You also a troll thats wants to be the super fighter class. Its not going to happen. Yea, we are going to tank equally, as well as do everything else equally. You better hope you can solo well, because competition for the tank spot is crowded right now. And even though you tank equally, perception is still going to kill you. Your about to lose your spot at DPS at raids and groups. But, least you can compete for that coveted tank slot. Enjoy your LFG tag. </FONT><BR></DIV></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><BR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>

RafaelSmith

04-01-2005, 01:03 AM

<span><blockquote><blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<p>RAW melee damage will always surpass combat arts, abilities and spells for the simple fact that its constant, no need for power usage meaning once a Caster is out of power, thats it he / she is basically useless.</p><hr></blockquote></blockquote> Hmm, this is wrong. ALL my parsing has shown that the vast bulk of my DPS comes via CAs and Proc buffs...Raw melee is crap in comparison. Sure its greater than a powerless Mages but its still pretty crappy. Ive parsed fights where the last 50% of the mobs life im doing nothing but swing the sword and the DPS for that half of the fight is a fraction of what it was for the first 50%. If you use a parse that breaks down which arts, etc you used you will see that the portion of your DPS made up by...Slashing or Crushing or Piercing is tiny compared to the rest. </span><div></div>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 01:14 AM

<blockquote><hr>Rompaa wrote:<P>What concerns me is the comparison between +5 def gain being the same as gaining a level, correct me if I am wrong but we gain FAR more than +5 defense each time we level in terms of Mittigation, block, parry, rippose etc not to mention stat gains, and I have seen no evidence yet that rules out other factors relating to level difference when calculating to hit based on level. </P> <P>I would like to see parses that evaluate the effect of +defense done by ONLY changing the defense value (not mob level etc) and I am willing to bet you will see a MUCH more marginal effect. I am sure buffs can be manipulated to allow a +5 Def disparity so that the ONLY deviation between parses is the defense value and the parses can then be performed against equivalent opponents.</P> <hr></blockquote>Nope, from one level at 0% to another level at 0% you gain 5 points to the maximum of each skill, Defense, Parry, Crushing, Slashing, Piercing, etc. Go look and see: you'll find that your level, times 5, equals the maximum for each skill, plus 1 for each 20% you are into your level (although actually, it seems that the recent change to give you mini-dings every 10% now gives you skillups of 1 at 10%, 30%, 50%, and 70%). Mitigation doesn't change except when you change armor, Block doesn't change except when you change shields, and Riposte isn't even listed anywhere; I'm pretty sure it's some kind of critical Parry although I can't absolutely prove it.As far as changing Defense skill instead of mob level, you have a point, albeit a small one IMHO <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />. A mob of one level should be matched up with characters' skills of the same level. I can't run a test with an increase of 5 but I can do so with an increase of 4; I'll try to do that this weekend, although RL may interfere!

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 01:22 AM

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<DIV>My Guardian friend is RELIGIOUS about keeping his abilities all at Adept 1 OR BETTER. He has MANY Adept 3 abilities, and I'm sure this helps him a ton.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>His 110 - 120 DPS average was something he could sustain over 10 pulls without stopping to regain power. Granted, we had a high level, talented Illusionist keeping us all Breeze'ed so even the 15 -20 seconds between pulls brought us a LOT of power regen.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And again, keep in mind that these mobs were not a threat. He was able to use all his abilities on offense, and only one taunt at the beginning to secure aggro.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Last night we did Permafrost, and his DPS dropped way off when he went to sword and board. These mobs WERE a threat and yellow to most of us, occasionally orange to me at L44. We had high DPS players with us, and he was forced to taunt far more often and consistently through the fight.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He probably averaged 60-70 DPS last night, though I didn't go back and add it up. Our group DPS was running in the 450 range, group was Guardian, Illusionist, Swashbuckler, Monk, Mystic, Templar. The Monk and Swashy were doing about 275 - 300 between them (they were 47ish), and they seemed fairly equal to me, neither one really out DPS'ing the other, but often flip flopping for highest DPS on any given fight.</DIV><hr></blockquote>Well, any Fighter's DPS will drop, including Monks' and Bruisers', when they are tanking non-trivial mobs; at that point they are focusing on keeping the mobs' attention, not doing DPS.I'm going to assume, as another poster said, that the Monk and Swashy were doing around 150 DPS each, rather than 275-300 each :O.I can't really compare your parsed numbers to PlatinumX2's because he's logging unbuffed numbers, or numbers with self-buffs only. However, I find it fascinating that your Guardian friend's sustained, group-buffed DPS was around 120 while your Monk friend's similarly sustained, group-buffed DPS was around 150.

Banditman

04-01-2005, 01:42 AM

<P>The Monk definitely hit higher DPS numbers than the Guard did a couple nights before.</P> <P>Keep in mind that the Monk was whacking on targets that were far more skilled at defense than what the Guardian was when he was going for DPS alone. To clarify . . . the Monk, in general, achieved a higher amount of DPS than the Guardian did, and the Monk was facing targets that were harder to hit.</P> <P>I'll see if I can dig out some of the fight summaries for ya, however, it's just one man's parse, feel free to parse your own.</P>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 01:53 AM

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<P>Keep in mind that the Monk was whacking on targets that were far more skilled at defense than what the Guardian was when he was going for DPS alone. To clarify . . . the Monk, in general, achieved a higher amount of DPS than the Guardian did, and the Monk was facing targets that were harder to hit.</P><hr></blockquote>Good point; it's always best to try and compare apples to apples.Mind you, I <i>expect</i> the Monk to do higher DPS than the Guardian. I'm interested in seeing numbers, rather than arguments, that show just how great the disparity is.I wish I could gather my own data, but my Monk (not my primary char anymore) is only 21 and I don't have a Guardian at all. Moreover I'm in a small guild so it's much harder to conscript guildies into DPS tests!

Banditman

04-01-2005, 02:42 AM

<DIV>Ok, my group was:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin (Monk), Letha (Swashy), Sudedor (Mystic), Speedslave (Guardian), Azamien (Illusionist), Elissa (Templar).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We were not "testing" anything. No one knew I was keeping track. For that very reason, I feel like this test might even be better than a true "test". Everyone was simply trying to fulfill their role as best they could, not trying to do anything more or less because they thought they were being monitored.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You'll see fights where someone took the fight "off" . . . chat, afk, whatever and have zero DPS. In the case of the Templar, zero DPS probably meant she had to heal a lot.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>These are just the fight SUMMARIES. I'm not pasting the whole log.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1112233955)[Wed Mar 30 20:52:35 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 394.5 (14598 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 122.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 116.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 66.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 42.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 38.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 7.8 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112234069)[Wed Mar 30 20:54:29 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 409.2 (12275 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 134.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 113.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 60.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 41.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 30.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 29.3 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(111223411<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Wed Mar 30 20:55:18 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 362.1 (15210 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 121.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 108.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 73.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 40.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 14.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 4.5 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112234170)[Wed Mar 30 20:56:10 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 389.5 (15579 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 143.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 117.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 51.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 28.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 27.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 20.2 DPS"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1112234519)[Wed Mar 30 21:01:59 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 419.9 (15958 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 131.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 90.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 66.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 60.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 53.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 17.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1112234675)[Wed Mar 30 21:04:35 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 481.9 (16384 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 147.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 118.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 83.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 66.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 40.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 26.3 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112234737)[Wed Mar 30 21:05:37 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 404.3 (12533 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 148.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 93.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 79.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 33.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 27.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 21.5 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(111223477<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Wed Mar 30 21:06:18 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 452.0 (15821 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 142.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 127.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 76.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 46.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 35.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 23.5 DPS"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(1112234882)[Wed Mar 30 21:08:02 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 476.6 (12869 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 137.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 136.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 66.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 60.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 38.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 37.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112234929)[Wed Mar 30 21:08:49 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 436.9 (15292 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 122.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 106.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 77.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 60.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 48.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 21.8 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112234969)[Wed Mar 30 21:09:29 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 500.0 (14501 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 153.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 144.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 61.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 58.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 46.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 34.7 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112235035)[Wed Mar 30 21:10:35 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 418.5 (14649 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 133.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 117.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 75.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 50.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 41.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 0.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112235086)[Wed Mar 30 21:11:26 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 400.2 (14006 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 115.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 77.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 74.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 52.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 50.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 29.1 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112235170)[Wed Mar 30 21:12:50 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 329.3 (12844 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 112.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 80.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 68.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 49.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 19.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 0.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112235250)[Wed Mar 30 21:14:10 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 318.2 (14955 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 121.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 68.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 64.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 52.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 11.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 0.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112235979)[Wed Mar 30 21:26:19 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 412.3 (15667 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 138.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 101.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 57.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 54.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 44.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 16.2 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236019)[Wed Mar 30 21:26:59 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 462.7 (12957 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 161.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 140.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 80.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 50.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 29.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 0.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236103)[Wed Mar 30 21:28:23 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 432.9 (15585 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 125.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 109.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 73.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 72.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 50.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 0.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236161)[Wed Mar 30 21:29:21 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 368.6 (16218 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 119.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 90.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 58.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 55.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 29.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 16.1 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236231)[Wed Mar 30 21:30:31 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 374.5 (15731 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 122.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 76.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 54.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 41.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 40.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 39.4 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236276)[Wed Mar 30 21:31:16 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 329.2 (12180 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 112.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 59.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 45.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 42.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 35.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 33.9 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236331)[Wed Mar 30 21:32:11 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 568.1 (15907 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 141.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 137.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 130.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 70.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 61.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 26.9 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236545)[Wed Mar 30 21:35:45 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 408.4 (15111 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 183.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 119.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 68.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 29.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 7.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 0.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236626)[Wed Mar 30 21:37:06 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 435.5 (15241 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 151.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 101.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 62.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 62.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 57.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 0.0 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236679)[Wed Mar 30 21:37:59 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 465.2 (13955 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 157.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 103.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 60.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 59.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 58.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 26.2 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112236934)[Wed Mar 30 21:42:14 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 464.3 (17180 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 143.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 134.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 86.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 55.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 37.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 7.2 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(111223715<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Wed Mar 30 21:45:58 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 413.1 (25612 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 131.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 125.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 59.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 41.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 41.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 14.1 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(111223737<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Wed Mar 30 21:49:38 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 413.4 (11574 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 150.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 87.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 73.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 39.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 35.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 27.6 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112237547)[Wed Mar 30 21:52:27 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 419.6 (15107 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 137.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 112.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 84.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 43.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 33.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 9.2 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(111223760<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Wed Mar 30 21:53:28 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 497.3 (15416 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 165.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 119.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 69.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 59.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 53.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 29.8 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112237660)[Wed Mar 30 21:54:20 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 359.6 (15462 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 133.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 91.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 49.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 38.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 36.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 10.7 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112237725)[Wed Mar 30 21:55:25 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 421.8 (14764 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 135.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 100.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 83.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 60.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 38.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 4.5 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112237757)[Wed Mar 30 21:55:57 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 476.2 (14287 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 123.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 87.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 76.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 75.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 67.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 45.5 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112237806)[Wed Mar 30 21:56:46 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 433.3 (15167 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 127.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 121.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 81.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 41.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 35.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 26.7 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(111223785<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Wed Mar 30 21:57:38 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 439.4 (14499 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 109.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 89.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 88.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 70.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 59.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112238523)[Wed Mar 30 22:08:43 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 495.9 (13885 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 149.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 125.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 101.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 58.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 33.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 27.8 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112238636)[Wed Mar 30 22:10:36 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 438.7 (15794 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 96.4 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 85.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 75.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 70.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 62.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 48.9 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(111223876<img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />[Wed Mar 30 22:12:48 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 352.7 (14462 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 102.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 101.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 78.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 37.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 26.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 6.9 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112238880)[Wed Mar 30 22:14:40 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 333.2 (10663 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 103.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 76.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 66.8 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 47.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 25.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 14.3 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112238987)[Wed Mar 30 22:16:27 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 461.5 (14768 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 128.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 104.1 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 79.7 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 71.2 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 53.9 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 24.1 DPS"</DIV> <DIV><BR>(1112239312)[Wed Mar 30 22:21:52 2005] You tell SudeStats (2),"Group DPS: 380.8 (14469 Damage)</DIV> <DIV>Kaelvin: 135.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Letha: 103.3 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Sudedor: 54.0 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Speedslave: 50.6 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Azamien: 25.5 DPS</DIV> <DIV>Elissa: 11.7 DPS"</DIV>

Geothe

04-01-2005, 03:14 AM

<P>I just tossed Bandit's numbers into Excel.</P> <P>Here are the averages for each person (not including any ZERO DPS fights)</P> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Azamien </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>45.27805 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Elissa </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>23.06389 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Kaelvin </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>122.0293 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Letha </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>118.359 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Speedslave </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>70.8122 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Sudedor </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>49.3 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P>

Noah

04-01-2005, 03:42 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Geothe wrote:<BR> <P>I just tossed Bandit's numbers into Excel.</P> <P>Here are the averages for each person (not including any ZERO DPS fights)</P> <P></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Azamien </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>45.27805 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Elissa </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>23.06389 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS"</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Kaelvin </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>122.0293 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Letha </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>118.359 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Speedslave </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>70.8122 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>Sudedor </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>49.3 </FONT><FONT color=#ffffff size=2>DPS</FONT></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>You forgot the put the disclaimer that the guardian can use leet utility buffs and non damage taunts to make up for the 50dps that is lost vs another *fighter* based class. </P> <P>Nice post going here.</P>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 04:58 AM

<blockquote><hr>DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:You forgot the put the disclaimer that the guardian can use leet utility buffs and non damage taunts to make up for the 50dps that is lost vs another *fighter* based class.<hr></blockquote>DemosthenesEQ2 ... maybe I'm dense but I don't quite get the thrust of this statement. Are you trying to compare Speedslave's DPS to Kaelvin's DPS in this run?Apples to apples, Noah. Speedslave was tanking, not DPS-ing, no comparison. If I wanted a reverse statement, I could point out that Speedslave's DPS the previous day was around 120, all of 2 DPS less than Kaelvin's on this run ... but I wouldn't, because they were fighting different level mobs. Apples to oranges, no comparison.I'm interested in apples to apples comparisons of Guardians' and Monks' (or Bruisers', for that matter) DPS. I'll take buffed, unbuffed, solo, duo, full group, raid, whatever you want but keep the situations equivalent if you want to compare the numbers.I might go out on a limb and speculate that Speedslave could probably have brought his DPS up to 90 - 100 if he wasn't tanking, which seems about right to me when comparing a Guardian to a Monk. However, that's just speculation and I'm really more interested in actual, logged numbers.

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 05:12 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR>You forgot the put the disclaimer that the guardian can use leet utility buffs and non damage taunts to make up for the 50dps that is lost vs another *fighter* based class. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>DemosthenesEQ2 ... maybe I'm dense but I don't quite get the thrust of this statement. Are you trying to compare Speedslave's DPS to Kaelvin's DPS in this run?<BR><BR>Apples to apples, Noah. Speedslave was tanking, not DPS-ing, no comparison. If I wanted a reverse statement, I could point out that Speedslave's DPS the previous day was around 120, all of 2 DPS less than Kaelvin's on this run ... but I wouldn't, because they were fighting different level mobs. Apples to oranges, no comparison.<BR><BR>I'm interested in apples to apples comparisons of Guardians' and Monks' (or Bruisers', for that matter) DPS. I'll take buffed, unbuffed, solo, duo, full group, raid, whatever you want but keep the situations equivalent if you want to compare the numbers.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>I might go out on a limb and speculate that Speedslave could probably have brought his DPS up to 90 - 100 if he wasn't tanking</FONT>, which seems about right to me when comparing a Guardian to a Monk. However, that's just speculation and I'm really more interested in actual, logged numbers.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> I know we are not working with numbers, but say it was, as you say, 90-100 DPS. That is a 16.7-25% difference in DPS. Now, we can go round and round about utility but lets not. We both have some worthwhile spells and some useless spells. That being said, if he DPS' that much better should I not tank (in regards to defense, aka taking a beating / avoiding) 16.7-25% better? Now, I am not saying I should AVOID that much more, but my OVERALL tanking should be that much better.</P> <P> Based on what Jez is doing I would say his ability to raid tank is well within that spread. </P><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:30 PM</span>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 05:40 AM

<blockquote><hr>English Da Guard wrote:<P> I know we are not working with numbers, but say it was, as you say, 90-100 DPS. That is a 16.7-25% difference in DPS. Now, we can go round and round, but utility for both classes is on par. We both have some worthwhile spells and some useless spells. That being said, if he DPS' that much better should I not tank (in regards to defense, aka taking a beating / avoiding) 16.7-25% better?</P><hr></blockquote>I <i>really</i> want to stay focused on the numbers, but I'll answer you briefly.<b><i>In my opinion</i></b> Monks trade DPS for Taunts, not for "Tanking" (dispersing damage, via Mitigation or Avoidance). Therefore, the difference in DPS would relate to the extra Taunt line that Guardians get (the Taunting Blow line) as well as the Hold the Line CA. Since that extra Taunt line would, arguably, give Guardians a 15-33% advantage in aggro management (depending on how often the blow landed), a 16.7-25% improvement in DPS would seem like a reasonable tradeoff, particularly if half or so of that DPS difference included special effects from CAs that helped to generate hate.However, that's only true if, apples to apples, Monks' DPS and Guardians' DPS isn't wildly different. I've heard people claim that the difference is small and other people claim that the difference is huge. I want numbers to support those arguments. The numbers here are, so far, interesting, but not yet conclusive.

English Da Gua

04-01-2005, 06:18 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR><BR>I <I>really</I> want to stay focused on the numbers, but I'll answer you briefly.<BR><BR><B><I>In my opinion</I></B> <FONT color=#ffff00>Monks trade DPS for Taunts</FONT>, not for "Tanking" (dispersing damage, via Mitigation or Avoidance). Therefore, the difference in DPS would relate to the extra Taunt line that Guardians get (the Taunting Blow line) as well as the Hold the Line CA. Since that extra Taunt line would, arguably, give Guardians a 15-33% advantage in aggro management (depending on how often the blow landed), a 16.7-25% improvement in DPS would seem like a reasonable tradeoff, particularly if half or so of that DPS difference included special effects from CAs that helped to generate hate.<BR><BR>However, that's only true if, apples to apples, Monks' DPS and Guardians' DPS isn't wildly different. I've heard people claim that the difference is small and other people claim that the difference is huge. I want numbers to support those arguments. The numbers here are, so far, interesting, but not yet conclusive.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> Here is the problem, DPS = hate BUT it also equals a mob dying faster. So if a mob dies faster and they can still hold aggro why, as everyone asks, have a guardian?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> In a group a monk can hold aggro fine but DPS higher which = faster kills, more experience and more chest drops. Monk > Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> On a raid, as Jez has showed, his greater DPS but lack of taunts has no bearing on his ability to keep aggro. So in the end if you put monks on par with a guardian in terms of raid tanking, there is no need to have a guardian ever (unless you want his buffs, which after the Defense patch probably won't stack anyway). You have then made an entire class equal to another in terms of tanking with less DPS. Monk > Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> PS - Perhaps they make guardian buffs add to mitigation of the group etc, but even so you would never have more then one guardian on a raid since you only need one to buff the MT. Offtanking is trivial so do not go there, and anyways, you would want a monk OTing since he would kill the mobs faster anwyays. Again, monk > guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> You just cannot put guardians and monks on par with tanking, while monks have an edge in DPS just because guardians have an additional taunt line. Only way this works is if you make holding aggro for a monk much more difficult.</DIV><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:19 PM</span>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 06:50 AM

English Da Guard, I spun off a new thread to continue this discussion <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=10143" target=_blank>here</a>. Let's keep this thread on the numbers.

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 07:35 AM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR>Aonein, Gage, please. You've got lots of other threads to argue class balance in, heck I'll even throw my 2c in, but not on this thread, okay? Let's keep this one on Guardian DPS.<BR><BR>Now, Aonein, about that post of yours from late yesterday afternoon:<BR><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>RAW melee damage will always surpass combat arts, abilities and spells for the simple fact that its constant, no need for power usage meaning once a Caster is out of power, thats it he / she is basically useless.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I've found DPS when OOP to be rare. Occasionally a fight will go longer than you expect, you'll get an add that takes a while to kill, or you'll make a bad judgement call and pull before you're quite ready but a large majority of DPS is a combination of "base" DPS and CA DPS. While I haven't done a long raid fight, I'd expect any serious raid leader to include an Enchanter or some other who can keep Power flowing.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>We are talking about raids here arent we? Or are we talking about single group fights that last 1 min where of course certain class's Combat Arts are going too surpass RAW melee DPS for the simple fact, you can spam Combat Arts to generate a big number.</FONT></P> <P><BR>Increasing DPS by 50% is not doubling it. It's increasing it by half-again, i.e. 100 DPS to 150 DPS. Increasing DPS by 100% is doubling it.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Enchanters, Bards have haste spells and haste songs. Monks have self haste, as do Scouts, Berserkers and all of these stack and you can get over 100% haste constantly.</FONT></P> <P><BR>Ahem, Monks' and Guardians' "raw" or "base" damage is the <B>same</B>, Aonein, all things being equal. A Monk with a staff hits for the same damage and at the same speed as a Guardian. Indeed, when you factor in Strength a Guardian will typically hit harder than a Monk as Guardians' gear typically favors Strength more than Monks' gear. It's only when you factor in Monks' self-haste buffs that the "base" damage changes in favor of Monks, although I don't know how much.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>You also need to factor in that Agility also affects you succes to hit ratio, seeing monks have a huge amount of Agility there succes to hit is the highest of all Archtypes. That in itself can create a higher DPS value reguardless of if someone hits for the same damage or not. Acually no ones gear favours the Stats they acually require, all items have the same stats for different class's. So basically, a Monk can hit 9 times out of 10 and a Guardian might only hit 6 times out of 10. Family i hate to break this too you, but a Monks raw DPS which is generated by Auto Attack isnt the same as a Guardian because of Self Haste, do you think Guardians get self haste or something and Combat Arts that do over 300 damage upon execution?<BR></FONT><BR>Looking at CAs a majority of Monks' offensive CAs have their own special effects that build hate. Since I don't have a Guardian I can't compare the damage of Monks' and Guardians' CAs at equivalent proficiency and level; does anyone want to post what the effects and damage of offensive CAs of Guardians do when they con white? I imagine we could get Gage and other high-level Monks to post similar data for Monks' CAs.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>There already is Screen shots of monks arts floating around on the monk forums, but since the monk forums has the most posts of any class, have fun finding that.<BR></FONT><BR>Also, Aonein, a Monk does not achieve his DPS in a vacuum. It costs the Monk Power, and plenty of it, to achieve the kind of DPS numbers people like to throw around. A Monk can't sustain that kind of DPS without running OOP either. I don't mind comparing <I>sustainable</I> DPS between Monks and Guardians but let's make sure we're comparing apples to apples, hmmm?</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Ummm Banditman supplyed enough parses to prove that a Monks DPS is constant, not everyone spams Combat Arts, if you asked a Guardian that you wanted 120 DPS out of him, you would be waiting for his power to regen after every single fight, where a Monk can rely on Self haste, a few high damage Combat Arts and DoT's and he can constantly.<BR></FONT><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <P>Haste is alot more powerful then people think, especially on raids, and anything else that goes along with haste for example like the offensive buff a Monk gets, Quoite Purity, increase Damage Per Second by 9%, increase offensive skills by 10 to a entire group and increase mental mitigation of the group by 300 or so. Now if a Monk was tanking with say 3 Scout class's doing DPS, because they also get 46% self haste, you have just increased there overall damage output plus your own by 9%, then there is the increase of offensive skills which is increasing your hit ratio. No other fighter class gets a Damage increase offensive buff like that except Brawler class. It is a uber group buff, especially from a RAW melee DPS point of view which is what does the grunt of damage in single group named fights and raids, because once a caster is out of power, whats he going to do?</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Come one, Aonein, you're smarter than this. Quiet Purity (or, what QP is <I>supposed</I> to be) is quite similar to Tides of War (or, at least, what ToW is <I>supposed</I> to be).<BR> <UL> <LI>Quiet Purity (Adept III) buffs group DPS by 9%, increases offensive skills of the group by 10, and is supposed to increase the mental Mitigation of the Monk by 267 (it's currently bugged to increase mental Mitigation of the group).</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>According to this screen shot, Quoite Purity is made to buff the entire group :</FONT></P> <P><A href="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/587/535.jpg" target=_blank>http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/587/535.jpg</A></P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>A 9% increase to damage output is a huge bonus to a melee based group, im always inviting Monks to my groups for there group buffs, and if they ask me too tank i say sure no problem, if the healers as me to go back to tanking, then thats not my fault, i have no problem letting Monks tank because being a Berserker i can be a somewhat of a poor mans DPS, not as good tank as a Guard and not as good DPS as a Monk.</FONT></P> <UL><BR> <LI>Tides of War (Adept III) is supposed to increase offensive skills of the group by 10 (currently it's bugged to only affect the Berserker), hastes the Berserker, and casts Berserk on the Berserker.</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Tides of War doesnt put the Berserker in a Berserk state, thats Bloodlust which is replaced with Tides of War.</FONT></P> <UL><BR> <LI>For that matter, the Guardian's Call to Battle increases offensive skills of the group by <B>12</B> and increases the Parry skill of the Guardian. Paladins and SKs get similar buffs at the same level (Call to Glory and Insatiable Hunger).</LI></UL> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Thats correct, but as you can see, there more defensive based then offensive based.</FONT></P> <P><BR>Perhaps QP is a tad overpowered by granting the group <I>both</I> 10 offensive skill points and 9% DPS increase, but that's arguable. If so it's easily fixed: just add the 9% DPS to the Monk.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Its made like that because a monk makes a superiour Off tank, so in a Melee based group, a Monk is a great addition to it, ethier in the form of Tanking or Off Tanking, ethier way, there going to add value to the group in ethier DPS or Tank.<BR></FONT><BR>Finally, I'm not yet convinced that "base" DPS is such a large portion of overall DPS nor that haste has such a large effect on DPS. I'm willing to be convinced but only by parsed numbers, not by arguments.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>There is no difference between Base and Raw melee DPS generated by Auto Attack. Base / Raw would be a Monk a Guardian with the <STRONG><U>same</U></STRONG> weapons at the <STRONG><U>same</U></STRONG> level with the <STRONG><U>same</U></STRONG> STR and unbuffed, <STRONG><U>BUT</U></STRONG> this still wouldnt even be even because the simple fact is, Monks get a higher Agility count there fore making there succes to hit higher then a Guardian which in tunr will increase there DPS. Raw melee DPS generated by auto attack is taking into</FONT> <BR></P> <P> <HR> <P></P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:05 PM</span>

Gaige

04-01-2005, 07:46 AM

<DIV>Not all monks have higher agility than guardians, look at Noah.</DIV>

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 07:53 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> RafaelSmith wrote:<BR><SPAN> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>RAW melee damage will always surpass combat arts, abilities and spells for the simple fact that its constant, no need for power usage meaning once a Caster is out of power, thats it he / she is basically useless.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hmm, this is wrong. ALL my parsing has shown that the vast bulk of my DPS comes via CAs and Proc buffs...Raw melee is crap in comparison. Sure its greater than a powerless Mages but its still pretty crappy.<BR><BR>Ive parsed fights where the last 50% of the mobs life im doing nothing but swing the sword and the DPS for that half of the fight is a fraction of what it was for the first 50%.<BR><BR>If you use a parse that breaks down which arts, etc you used you will see that the portion of your DPS made up by...Slashing or Crushing or Piercing is tiny compared to the rest.<BR><BR><BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I was talking about raids and long named fights that go more then 3 mins, but of course Combat Arts are going to be a huge part of a single groups DPS in a fight that lasts less then 1 min, for the simple fact people can spam there highest level of the line arts with the most direct damage. Do you think the last 50% of that fight you were in you hardly did any damage in reguards too swinging your sword was because you missed most of the time?</P> <P>Alot of people seem to be forgeting that Agility effects your succes to hit ratio, and Monks have the highest unbuffed Agility in the game. When i read the description on what a Monk is which is :</P> <P><EM>Monks are disciplined combatants who specialize in the martial arts. Thier natural agility allows them to avoid there enemys blows and strike back with clean, efficient counterattacks.</EM></P> <P>Now to me, that says they get missed alot and they hit alot. Clean and efficient means direct and accurate which is due to agility being so high and they hardly miss during a fight which in turn creates agro cause you are doing constant damage due to clean efficient counterattacks with very minimal miss's.</P> <P>Monks dont trade off taunts for tanking ability Familyman, thats just the way you see it, your ability to hit so much with clean, efficient counterattacks due to agility being so high is your agro generator plus the help of the few taunts you get and the amount you avoid damage is the trade off for self tanking utililty that Guardians get.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 08:01 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not all monks have higher agility than guardians, look at Noah.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes Gage correct, but thats because Noah probally chose Agility triats over STR or STA and decided to concentrate on exploiting a bug which is has already been said numerous amounts of times by you and other Guardians. Its ture, Plate class tanks shouldnt avoid as much as Monks, thats just common sense, but, there is one problem, and thats the amount of agility that we get on our armor, this isnt our faults, its SoE poor itemization, and making all armor class specific with basically the same stats.</P> <P>But monks dont trade of taunts for DPS, there DPS is generated through clean, efficient counterattacks due to high agility making them direct and accurate fighters, with the ability to tank because their slimy little critters ducking and weaving in combat which is also based upon thier high agility. Even you know that Gage.</P> <P>Once they fix buff stacking, which is the entire problem to start with, all this will be water under the bridge ( i hope ), and we can once again go about our normal day to day Norrathian lives.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:13 PM</span>

Gaige

04-01-2005, 10:19 AM

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Monks have the highest unbuffed Agility in the game. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>Never seen a scout I assume? They get power from agility, not us. Deflection is more important to our class than agility.<BR></DIV>

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 10:44 AM

<P>So your telling me, lets use our brains here Gage and look at it from a unbuffed solo Melee non utility point of view, not what a Bard can offer a group, just get what a Bard can offer a group right out of your head Gage because its going to change, but your telling me a Ranger, Assassin can get over 196 agility + 185 strength <STRONG><U>unbuffed</U></STRONG> like this guy :</P> <P><A href="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/587/535.jpg" target=_blank>http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/587/535.jpg</A></P> <P>Now according to LU#6 test patch notes, there adding some self <STRONG><U>Agility</U></STRONG> to certain Monk buffs, again, monks are <STRONG><U>clean, efficient counter attackers</U></STRONG> which means you need Agility just as much as Scouts to strike back with direct and accurate hits with minimal miss's to help you control agro due to lack of taunts with the ability to avoid like no other class in the game due to being the <STRONG><U>ONLY</U></STRONG> class with Deflection. But hang on, Scouts get power from agility, not Monks, so why would they give you more agility.</P> <P>Yes Gage, Scouts get <STRONG><U>power</U></STRONG> from Agility, power as in the stuff that cost to cast Combat Arts and Spells, the blue bar. Fighters get power from Strength. The problem is, SoE need to increase the itemization to fill a larger area where alot of class's miss out on stats due to majority of the armor peices having generic stats to suit every one who can wear that style of armor.</P> <P>Let me just run this by you again Gage incase you drive around it in your Volvo again, more Agility = more succesful hits landed. More succesful hits landed = more DPS, more DPS = more agro generated on a constant basis.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:49 PM</span>

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 10:44 AM

<P>bah double posting cause of being logged out :smileysad:</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:45 PM</span>

04-01-2005, 11:00 AM

I have a 42 guardian. A good friend has a 40 monk. I've not parsed numbers (nice post above, by the way) but my personal experience matches the general consensus. When I go all-out DPS, I do OK (but not amazing) DPS. When my friend's monk goes all-out DPS, he nearly matches another friend's level 41 swashbuckler, though he can't sustain it (but then, neither can I). Monk DPS is much higher than the Guardian's, though I wouldn't say that my DPS as a guardian is hideous. It's just marginal. If I taunt, then my DPS plummets but the Monk gets to taunt via his damaging attacks, so his DPS stays considerably higher, whether he's main tanking or not. On class balance: (1) Main Tank Role: Monks can fill the main tank role just fine. Their hit points seem to fluctuate more (a function of avoidance and lower mitigation?), but they can fill the role in a regular group easily-- espeically with a Mystic. Guardian seems to be slightly better as the main tank, but not by much! Paladins do fine as main tanks as well. Frankly, sometimes I wonder what the point is in armor, seeing as monks fill the main tank role so well. People tend to not ask Monks to play main tank, but I suspect that's more a hold-over from EQ1 than any inate inabilty to do it. (2) Ability to Do Damage: Monks blow Guardians out of the water. Granted, I usually end up holding agro and he goes all dps, but we've done the reverse from time to time... and Guardian combat arts simply don't do the damage that a monk's does. Guardian's do OK damage, but nothing spectacular. My best attack-- retaliate-- does nice damage but has a 60 second recharge timer. I've another friend who plays a swashbuckler... level 41. The monk can't quite match the swashbuckler DPS, but he comes close. I consider a monk to be a DPS class, though not equivalent to a scout or mage.. (3) Utility spells: Monks again. Safefall is nice, as is invisibilty and feign death. This led to my friend wandering all over Zek at level 30, whereas I dared not venture too far out without planning on a big fight. So what we have is a class with near scout DPS, invisibility, safefall, and good (but not quite as good as a guardian) ability to main tank. My friend solos (or duos) all the time. I have a hard time doing it-- it takes forever to kill mobs solo (I'm quite capable of soloing, it just takes forever), unless I want to dump all my power then sit around afterwards. Why a monk would envy a guardian is beyond me. If we're talking about level 50 raids, I'm not there yet but can't see why anyone would care about an "imbalance" at that point in the game, assuming one exists, as to who should be the main tank in a raid. AFter all, even if guardians are "better", so what? If there are multiple guardians then the others get to sit around too-- and you'd much rather have more dps.

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 11:43 AM

Doggone it Gage, Aonein, <b>take it elsewhere</b>. Let's <b>keep</b> this thread on the numbers or it'll become useless.Aonein, I've answered you <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=10179#M10179" target=_blank>here</a>. Might I suggest that you and Gage continue your argument there too?Edited for clarity.<p>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <span class=date_text>03-31-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:45 PM</span>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 11:51 AM

Maez, thanks for your input. I'd really like to see some numbers, though. Maybe you could log some fights one night with you and your friend switching off? You could even email them to me and I'd parse them; PM me for my email address if you want to go that route.I'll answer your Class Balance statement in the other post tomorrow; I want to make some points but it's getting late.

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 01:28 PM

<P>Read my posts again Familyman, there not about class balance, there about how monks DPS is generated and the purpose of it. And one is directed at you anyway. If numbers is what you want i can give you numbers, but you wont like the out come and you will most likely call me a lier anyways.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

Gaige

04-01-2005, 10:06 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>So your telling me, lets use our brains here Gage and look at it from a unbuffed solo Melee non utility point of view, not what a Bard can offer a group, just get what a Bard can offer a group right out of your head Gage because its going to change, but your telling me a Ranger, Assassin can get over 196 agility + 185 strength <STRONG><U>unbuffed</U></STRONG> like this guy :</P> <P><A href="http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/587/535.jpg" target=_blank>http://eq2images.station.sony.com/000/000/587/535.jpg</A></P> <P>Now according to LU#6 test patch notes, there adding some self <STRONG><U>Agility</U></STRONG> to certain Monk buffs, again, monks are <STRONG><U>clean, efficient counter attackers</U></STRONG> which means you need Agility just as much as Scouts to strike back with direct and accurate hits with minimal miss's to help you control agro due to lack of taunts with the ability to avoid like no other class in the game due to being the <STRONG><U>ONLY</U></STRONG> class with Deflection. But hang on, Scouts get power from agility, not Monks, so why would they give you more agility.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*sigh*</P> <P>You would pick the one monk that I know of with like 6 master chest drops and a bunch of rare stuff, wouldn't you? But does that prove much? Nah.</P> <P>Here is my friend Diminisher, 50 ranger on Guk, that I duo a lot with.</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=124716101" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=124716101</A></P> <P>143str 145 agility unbuffed. With *ZERO* master chest drops.</P> <P>So yes, I am going to tell you that a ranger/assassin/*insert class here* can get close to the same stats. Plus he is a dwarf, their starting agility sucks.</P> <P>Or what about Noah, I'm not sure what his exact numbers are, but here is his page:</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=202539202" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=202539202</A></P> <P>133 str, 173 agi, 167 sta. Yeah that sucks! /sarcasm.</P> <P>Or peko:</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=103782101" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=103782101</A></P> <P>154 str, 171 agi.</P> <P>The point is that any class that has the money or raids a lot can get their stats up there. You just happen to choose the one monk on my server I know of with tons of master chest items/armor/weapons.</P> <P><A href="http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=103074101" target=_blank>http://eq2players.station.sony.com/en/pplayer.vm?characterId=103074101</A> <--- Nevaar on Guk, 50 guardian with tons of nice stuff, another good guy to compare to.</P> <P>So /shrug.</P> <P>As for Phin's Mountain Haven, I didn't take it, but I thought it always buffed agility. I do know our t5 AoE is supposed to buff the caster's agility and doesn't, so maybe they'll get around to fixing that soon too.</P>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 10:35 PM

<blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<P>Read my posts again Familyman, there not about class balance, there about how monks DPS is generated and the purpose of it. And one is directed at you anyway. If numbers is what you want i can give you numbers, but you wont like the out come and you will most likely call me a lier anyways.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <hr></blockquote>Ah, but the value of this post is not in how or why, but <i>what</i>. We can argue (and probably will <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />) till the end of days about the how and the why but we need numbers to support or defeat our arguments.Please, give me some numbers. Explain how you got them. If you don't use parses, expect criticism on how you came up with your numbers and be ready to defend your methods. If you do use parses be prepared to describe the conditions you took them under so that others can try to repeat your trials and report on <i>their</i> results. That's the scientific method and that will convince me. Mere arguments without supporting numbers never will.

Oakwood

04-01-2005, 10:59 PM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:<BR>Throw in a race where the Guardian can choose a +5 Defense Tradition ... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>First, this is about offence, not defense.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Second, you absolutly may not thrown in race, since there are no race/class limitations. You can make an Ogre monk/bruiser with no more dificulty than an Ogre guardian. If the monk chose to be a softskin race, the guard could have done so just as well. We should be comparing ogre guards to ogre brawlers, wood elf to wood elf, grey alien to grey ali.., er erudite, etc</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>apologies for participating in the hijak, but this item is really starting to get on my nerve. The difference between a 50 guard and a 50 bruiser is 5 or 10 defense with the same race and same external buffs. More guards choose ogre because they want to be the best tanks they can, if the brawler wants to be the best tank he can , he should have chosen ogre as well (or barb, troll, or whichever other ones get defensive traits). If you chose to sacrifice abilities for RP reasons to be a rat or erud brawler, that is on the player who made the decision, not on the system that allows them the liberty to choose RP over raw stats if they like.</DIV>

-Aonein-

04-01-2005, 11:04 PM

<P>lol Familyman, i dont have to print no numbers and yes i run a parser, but you dont need a computer to generate something you can see with the human eye, thats called lazy, all you have to do is look at Banditmans records, but you yourself dont agree with it, the problem is Familyman, your so hell bent on proving yourself right that Guardians are on par with Monks in reguards to DPS that anyone that posts log files of Monks out DPSing Guardians by a great deal more then 5 - 10%, you will then argue how they went about running the parser, or what mobs they used, i did this on EQ1 for over 3 years to try and prove monks on EQ1 werent balanced as a DPS char, i know guys like you, so it dont matter what we print up or fork out, cause in your eyes, it wont be right. Besides, Banditman isnt the only guy on here with log file print ups.</P> <P>No point arguing with you Familyman, cause you already know the outcome, not even you seem that stupid.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

FamilyManFir

04-01-2005, 11:29 PM

<blockquote><hr>Oakwood wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> FamilyManFirst wrote:Throw in a race where the Guardian can choose a +5 Defense Tradition ... <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Second, you absolutly may not thrown in race, since there are no race/class limitations. You can make an Ogre monk/bruiser with no more dificulty than an Ogre guardian. If the monk chose to be a softskin race, the guard could have done so just as well. We should be comparing ogre guards to ogre brawlers, wood elf to wood elf, grey alien to grey ali.., er erudite, etc</DIV><hr></blockquote>I stand (well, sit) corrected. You are absolutely right, and I apologise. I think I was annoyed that day, after someone called my numbers into question, claiming that I had hidden that Tradition in them. Nevertheless, you're right, let's keep it clean and compare apples to apples.Edited for clarity.<p>Message Edited by FamilyManFirst on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:03 AM</span>

FamilyManFir

04-02-2005, 12:11 AM

<blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<P>lol Familyman, i dont have to print no numbers and yes i run a parser, but you dont need a computer to generate something you can see with the human eye, thats called lazy, all you have to do is look at Banditmans records, but you yourself dont agree with it, the problem is Familyman, your so hell bent on proving yourself right that Guardians are on par with Monks in reguards to DPS that anyone that posts log files of Monks out DPSing Guardians by a great deal more then 5 - 10%, you will then argue how they went about running the parser, or what mobs they used, i did this on EQ1 for over 3 years to try and prove monks on EQ1 werent balanced as a DPS char, i know guys like you, so it dont matter what we print up or fork out, cause in your eyes, it wont be right. Besides, Banditman isnt the only guy on here with log file print ups.</P> <P>No point arguing with you Familyman, cause you already know the outcome, not even you seem that stupid.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker16th OutfitterEverfrost ServerEnlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )70th Stone Fist of The Celestial FistFive Rings on Luclin Server</P> <hr></blockquote>First you offer to procure some numbers that I "won't like" and then, when I take you up on it, you refuse to do so. I can only conclude that you don't have any and just want to blow hot air on these forums. Go right ahead, but don't expect anybody to believe you.As far as Banditman's numbers, he himself stated that they were inequivalent. However, if you still want to use them, then just look at the ones he posted right here. His Guardian friend did 120 DPS, sustained, while his Monk friend did 122 DPS, sustained. (/sarcasm on) I guess that Guardian DPS is pretty much the same as Monk, then, thank you for that clarification. (/sarcasm off)I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong, however I demand parsed, repeatable numbers. If Guardian DPS and Monk DPS turn out to be wildly different I may call for a Monk DPS nerf or a Guardian DPS boost instead of meekly accepting that Monks "just aren't supposed to be as good Tanks as Guardians" but that's my prerogative. The devs may choose to ignore me, too, if they decide that Monks really <i>aren't</i> supposed to be as good Tanks as Guardians. Personally I don't think they will but that's just my opinion.Looks to me like you're the one hell bent on proving yourself right, and without any hard facts to back yourself up, either. Now that's what I call lazy.I've had enough of you on this thread, Aonein. Post some numbers; otherwise I'll ignore your rants on this thread from now on. If I don't this thread will degenerate into bickering between you and me. If you want to reply to this and get in the last word, be my guest.

ugl

04-02-2005, 12:29 AM

I think, since the prevailant belief among the player base is that monks outdamage guardians by a signifigant amount, the burden of proof is in your corner.

FamilyManFir

04-02-2005, 12:37 AM

Maez, I posted my supplemental reply <a href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=3&message.id=10311#M10311" target=_blank>here</a>.

FamilyManFir

04-02-2005, 12:44 AM

<blockquote><hr>uglak wrote:I think, since the prevailant belief among the player base is that monks outdamage guardians by a signifigant amount, the burden of proof is in your corner. <hr></blockquote>I have no problem with that, Uglak, and I'm <i>trying</i>, but since I don't have a Guardian and only a low-level Monk I can't gather the data myself. That's why I'm asking for numbers here.FWIW, there <i>are</i> those who claim that Guardian DPS and Monk DPS are not that far apart, but they don't provide any numbers either; or, at best, they throw out numbers without stating how they got them. That's about as useful as using Banditman's numbers that show Guardians' and Monks' DPS nearly identical, except that they were fighting different level mobs!I want apples to apples numbers, hang it all. Then we can argue about just how much difference is significant <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, but without those numbers any arguments are unsupported and fruitless.

Banditman

04-02-2005, 01:48 AM

<P>Just to clarify, the mobs we fought on those occasions were not just different in level, they were SIGNIFICANTLY different in level. Mobs in RV were mostly blue, occasionally white to me at 43. Mobs in PF . . . . I've never SEEN a white in Permafrost at L44. All Yellow or Orange, including a number of L50 mobs.</P> <P>All bickering and number crunching aside (and man, I'm a born number cruncher) the perception in game is that a Brawler (Monk or Bruiser) can fill a DPS role. Be that right or wrong, that's the perception. I have not once run into someone unwilling to accept a Brawler in a DPS role. I have OFTEN filled my groups out with Brawlers in DPS roles. </P> <P>On my server, Guards are far too rare to even consider using one in a DPS role, they are wanted very greatly for the MT spot. Sudedox (my Guard there) has absolutely no trouble getting a group when I'm playing him. However, a great portion of that is his reputation as being a tank who can actually hold aggro while everyone else goes full bore at the mob.</P> <P> </P> <P>/me throws in his $.02</P>

FamilyManFir

04-02-2005, 03:04 AM

<blockquote><hr>Banditman wrote:<P>Just to clarify, the mobs we fought on those occasions were not just different in level, they were SIGNIFICANTLY different in level. Mobs in RV were mostly blue, occasionally white to me at 43. Mobs in PF . . . . I've never SEEN a white in Permafrost at L44. All Yellow or Orange, including a number of L50 mobs.</P> <hr></blockquote>I'd figured something like that - you'd stated before that they were different in level - but thanks for the clarification.

Crystal Arine

04-02-2005, 09:14 AM

seudainx wrote- <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>29 Guardian and 28 Bruiser here. My thoughts: <BR><BR>Guardians are not overpowered: <FONT color=#ff0000><EM>You give up all hopes of any dps</EM></FONT> to be a walking tank whats wrong with that? <BR><BR><BR>Bruisers are not a pure tank class: You give up some ability to tank for very decent dps, the ability to one shot heal yourself a decent fear and a feign death. I wouldnt want my bruiser to tank as well as my guardian, why play a guardian then? <BR><BR><BR>If there are some problems with the way the end game is tanked, maybe raid encounters need to be looked at. As far as grouping goes I do not see any problems. If they start tossing nerfs around like silly this will require the holy trinity for groups like eqI did/does. Cleric/Warrior/Enc. Finding a healer can be tough as it is now, <EM><FONT color=#ffff00>because honestly who wants to be a cleric type.</FONT></EM></DIV> <P><FONT color=#6666ff><EM><FONT color=#ffffff>----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></EM></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#6666ff><FONT color=#ffffff>Ok, first off on the subject that "You give up all hopes of any dps" is completly and totally false.Every single time now I log into the toon search I look down to who does the most meele damage Game Wide. I see the guys name for the first time, look to the right and...OMG OMG OMG :smileyhappy::smileyindifferent::smileymad::smiley sad::smileysurprised::smileytongue::smileyvery-happy::smileywink: his damage is in the 15,000s. Oh well probably another assassin *sigh* I click on the link to his profile and I almost passed out. This guy has to be on steriods HES A GUARDIAN,they should have one of the lowest dps in the game as the are the MAIN TANK in all my grps that they join,enough said...</FONT></FONT></P> <P>Second, I play a cleric/inquisitor :smileyindifferent:.....i like my class :smileysad:</P> <P>So the answer to your question who honestly wants to be a cleric type I DO (there fun)</P> <P>I was thinking about making a guardian coz my SK sucks even though I get tells asking me to tank coz i got good rep I still really dont like the class.<FONT color=#6666ff></FONT></P> <DIV>The guardian was lvl 50 btw<BR><BR></DIV> <P>Message Edited by Crystal Arine on <SPAN class=date_text>04-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:17 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by Crystal Arine on <SPAN class=date_text>04-01-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:19 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Crystal Arine on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:21 PM</span>

English Da Gua

04-02-2005, 09:32 AM

<P> The whole reason a guard has that 15k damage mark is due to the new bloodline spell that KILLS HIM. That is damage HE TAKES. He didn't do that to a mob he did it to himself. </P> <P> If we are gonna count DPS as damage to self, well I could jump off the cliffs in CL or PF and have mad DPS....</P><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>04-01-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:16 PM</span>

-Aonein-

04-02-2005, 09:42 AM

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>FamilyManFirst wrote:</P> <P><BR>First you offer to procure some numbers that I "won't like" and then, when I take you up on it, you refuse to do so. I can only conclude that you don't have any and just want to blow hot air on these forums. Go right ahead, but don't expect anybody to believe you.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Other people who parse know im telling the truth Familyman, im not here to prove anyone wrong, i honestly couldnt give two s**ts what you think ethier because you have a rather offensive attitude when backed into a corner.<BR></FONT><BR>As far as Banditman's numbers, he himself stated that they were inequivalent. However, if you still want to use them, then just look at the ones he posted right here. His Guardian friend did 120 DPS, sustained, while his Monk friend did 122 DPS, sustained. (/sarcasm on) I guess that Guardian DPS is pretty much the same as Monk, then, thank you for that clarification. (/sarcasm off)</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Once again, having no idea what you talking about except refering from numbers.</FONT></P> <P><BR>I am perfectly willing to be proven wrong, however I demand parsed, repeatable numbers. If Guardian DPS and Monk DPS turn out to be wildly different I may call for a Monk DPS nerf or a Guardian DPS boost instead of meekly accepting that Monks "just aren't supposed to be as good Tanks as Guardians" but that's my prerogative. The devs may choose to ignore me, too, if they decide that Monks really <I>aren't</I> supposed to be as good Tanks as Guardians. Personally I don't think they will but that's just my opinion.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Yes your a paranoid wiz kid.</FONT><BR><BR>Looks to me like you're the one hell bent on proving yourself right, and without any hard facts to back yourself up, either. Now that's what I call lazy.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>Rough enough is good enough.<BR></FONT><BR>I've had enough of you on this thread, Aonein. Post some numbers; otherwise I'll ignore your rants on this thread from now on. If I don't this thread will degenerate into bickering between you and me. If you want to reply to this and get in the last word, be my guest.</P> <P><FONT color=#66ccff>See thats why i dont want to supply you fuel for the fire Familyman, cause i find you attitude towards people very rude and offensive when things dont go your way. You come here claiming you own thr forum trying to tell Guardians what there class description is and trying to prove them to be some sort of DPS machine, and you boldy do this right in there face, again, very rude and offensive Familyman, its not about the last word or who is right and who is wrong, its about the fun factor, something im sure you know nothing about with a attitude like yours.<BR></FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 46th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>04-02-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:11 PM</span>