Why I have finally started an Alt ... a scout [Archive]

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Stra

03-29-2005, 02:38 PM

Im playing an alt now because of the impending Guardian nerfage. However, my heart is really not in it. This nerfage is going to go a long way towards pushing me to cancel. It is taking the fun out of playing my guardian knowing that in live update 7, we will be essentially murdered. Its pushing me ever so much closer to cancelling. This isnt anything other than simply how I feel. The whiners have gotten their way. <div></div>

Moontayle

03-29-2005, 02:58 PM

I think you're jumping to conclusions. We're a good 6 weeks away from that even hitting Live, and that's on the short cycle. I think when it's all said and done we'll still be the best at mitigation, still be behind in DPS, and still have the most taunts available on a single cycle.

SageMarrow

03-29-2005, 04:09 PM

which may be true, but for that matter they have to take out the group buff gimmick for holding aggro on fighter class buffs. thats how brawlers hold aggro in case you didnt know. not by our super powerful taunts, or extra line there of. and strast while i feel that guardians should be left alone and left with whatever it is that they have... heck - just increase raid mobs by 2 levels. that would alleviate all this nonsense with trivialization due to buff stacking. but either way - for that matter - shadowknights still need some help... and even with my bruiser- i dont want to be subpar dps and subpar tanking, that wouldnt be fun longterm. Shrug off was my ticket in- but SOE tore up my willy wonka majick ticket to raid... so after scouts get an increase, conjurers and even enchanters get thier increase... thats exactly what a bruiser will be. as far as i can see. not the preffered tank and buff stacking on raids. just pitiful.

Gaige

03-29-2005, 04:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote: and strast while i feel that guardians should be left alone and left with whatever it is that they have... heck - just increase raid mobs by 2 levels. that would alleviate all this nonsense with trivialization due to buff stacking. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> That would end any hope for balance at all.

Stra

03-29-2005, 05:28 PM

<div></div><blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:which may be true, but for that matter they have to take out the group buff gimmick for holding aggro on fighter class buffs. thats how brawlers hold aggro in case you didnt know. not by our super powerful taunts, or extra line there of.<hr></blockquote>Its a way I hold aggro too man. Guardian group bufs are the bomb for multi-encounter tanking. If all I had were taunts, my job would be much harder. <div></div>Message Edited by Strast on 03-29-2005 01:29 PM

SageMarrow

03-29-2005, 06:51 PM

well im speaking for post TAuNT increase... i dont think the group buffs will be neccessary at that point. right now our problem is keeping aggro off the group warlock.. not the healers. any boost to that = will make that a simple task without needing group buffs at all.

Stra

03-29-2005, 08:11 PM

<blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:well im speaking for post TAuNT increase... i dont think the group buffs will be neccessary at that point. right now our problem is keeping aggro off the group warlock.. not the healers. any boost to that = will make that a simple task without needing group buffs at all. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Taunts are fine but they arent multi-encounter and that is the problem. When you get more than one encounter, you need the group buffs especially to keep all encounters glued to you. <div></div>

Mig

03-29-2005, 09:26 PM

<blockquote><hr>Strast wrote:Im playing an alt now because of the impending Guardian nerfage. However, my heart is really not in it. This nerfage is going to go a long way towards pushing me to cancel. It is taking the fun out of playing my guardian knowing that in live update 7, we will be essentially murdered. Its pushing me ever so much closer to cancelling. This isnt anything other than simply how I feel. The whiners have gotten their way. <div></div><hr></blockquote>After getting to lvl 47 as a guardian and running through the heart of fear quest successfully, I think we need to be nerfed. At one point, I had a group of orange ^ mobs that simply did not hit me. This is just broken. Caster mobs chew me up pretty good, and a heroic group of casters is a pretty rough fight, but melee based mobs are just a joke. Yes it will suck, and yes it will take some time to adjust to combat again, but I think it will make the game more fun over the long term. What I expect to come about from this patch:1. Some people who rolled guardians to be l33t, or because their other tank alt was "broken" will go back to their first character or quit.2. Groups might have to step down a notch in their hunting zone. I.e. Go from cazic back to feerrott, or from varsoons back to the steppes etc.3. Those of us who always knew we wanted to be a guardian because it fit our play style and view of the game will adjust, and continue to kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].

Gaige

03-29-2005, 11:24 PM

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote: After getting to lvl 47 as a guardian and running through the heart of fear quest successfully, I think we need to be nerfed. At one point, I had a group of orange ^ mobs that simply did not hit me. This is just broken. Caster mobs chew me up pretty good, and a heroic group of casters is a pretty rough fight, but melee based mobs are just a joke. Yes it will suck, and yes it will take some time to adjust to combat again, but I think it will make the game more fun over the long term. What I expect to come about from this patch: 1. Some people who rolled guardians to be l33t, or because their other tank alt was "broken" will go back to their first character or quit. 2. Groups might have to step down a notch in their hunting zone. I.e. Go from cazic back to feerrott, or from varsoons back to the steppes etc. 3. Those of us who always knew we wanted to be a guardian because it fit our play style and view of the game will adjust, and continue to kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Excellent post. QFE. </DIV>

English Da Gua

03-29-2005, 11:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Strast wrote: Im playing an alt now because of the impending Guardian nerfage. However, my heart is really not in it. This nerfage is going to go a long way towards pushing me to cancel. It is taking the fun out of playing my guardian knowing that in live update 7, we will be essentially murdered. Its pushing me ever so much closer to cancelling. This isnt anything other than simply how I feel. The whiners have gotten their way. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> After getting to lvl 47 as a guardian and running through the heart of fear quest successfully, I think we need to be nerfed. At one point, I had a group of orange ^ mobs that simply did not hit me. This is just broken. Caster mobs chew me up pretty good, and a heroic group of casters is a pretty rough fight, but melee based mobs are just a joke. Yes it will suck, and yes it will take some time to adjust to combat again, but I think it will make the game more fun over the long term. What I expect to come about from this patch: 1. Some people who rolled guardians to be l33t, or because their other tank alt was "broken" will go back to their first character or quit. 2. Groups might have to step down a notch in their hunting zone. I.e. Go from cazic back to feerrott, or from varsoons back to the steppes etc. 3. Those of us who always knew we wanted to be a guardian because it fit our play style and view of the game will adjust, and continue to kick [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Go do HoF without ANY def buffs except your own. I promise you will not avoid all those attacks. It is hard to see why some of you think, even fellow guardians, the problem lies within the class. IT DOES NOT ! Run through HoF again with only your buffs on. Have no other class buff you and you won't come here saying "this is broken" when referring to guardians. You will come here saying, "I get my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] handed to me without all those other def buffs, but when I am fully buffed things are trivial." That my friends, is what is broken. Buffs, the problem lies within those 5 sexy letters. Please, you wanna see how uber your guardian is, go solo a ^^^ white con or higher ok. Ain't gonna happen. I have no problem for a class nerf if that is warranted, the problem here is that the nerf bat needs to hit the buffs, which in the end effects EVERYONE and makes the game more difficult. That, I am fine with. That is a nerf I do not mind. It makes the game harder (more fun IMO) and it effects everyone. Also, if you read what Moorgard said he basically is referring to def buffs, so please do not come here saying xxx encounter is trivial to my group so we need to be nerfed. After the Def buffs change, if what you say is still possible then I will agree with you that we need to be looked into, as, like even Gage has said, we should be mitigating, not avoiding. PS - To the OP, no worries man. Every class will be nerfed over time and all will have times of power, just the way the game works. If you truly are not in it so be it, but I promise you it won't be as bad as others have made it out to be. Hopefully, you stick with it, the wannabe guards who chose a guard to be god will quit, leaving those of us who are passionate about our class still standing. Hell, this change may turn out to be a huge positive, I wouldn't mind the 2k other guardians on my server quiting. Just the other day a guardian I know was using a screaming mace to tank....I will let you make your own assumptions =) Message Edited by English Da Guard on 03-29-2005 11:06 AM

Gaige

03-30-2005, 12:06 AM

While you may be right, they certainly didn't nerf the agility buffs that were causing problems and making content trivial. So their past record doesn't bid well for a pure realignment and respec'ing of the buffs.

English Da Gua

03-30-2005, 12:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: While you may be right, they certainly didn't nerf the agility buffs that were causing problems and making content trivial. So their past record doesn't bid well for a pure realignment and respec'ing of the buffs. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Lol, this is true Thing is, I am just tired of people trying to say it has to do with the class. IT DOESN"T. Whether they nerf the buffs or how defense works in general, it has nothing to do with the class. If you got your Def to +300, content would be trivial for you too. The change will affect us all, and rightly so. I look forward to a more difficult game. As I said above, if after the changes I still avoid the way I do now, I will concur with you and others that we need a bit of tweaking.

Gaige

03-30-2005, 12:12 AM

I think the reason it seems people are directing it towards your class is because you have the most self-defensive buffs, which also means you can get the highest defense when grouped with others who have defensive buffs. Which is confusing but I think I said it right.

English Da Gua

03-30-2005, 12:18 AM

Agreed again /sigh How much can you self buff yourself. ATM I think I can raise my own defense 30. This includes my racial trait +5 and battle field command +5, 3 min buff 30 min recast racial choice. I would log on and confirm this but my CPU is having some problems powering down for no reason so I cannot log on at the moment.

Gaige

03-30-2005, 12:39 AM

I can raise my defense/deflection by 15 and my parry by 11. The deflection increase on control breathing (+10) does NOT stack with the +15 deflection from spider stance. These are adept 1 spells.

Mig

03-30-2005, 02:13 AM

Go do HoF without ANY def buffs except your own. I promise you will not avoid all those attacks. It is hard to see why some of you think, even fellow guardians, the problem lies within the class. IT DOES NOT !AM<hr>But HoF was never intended for someone to solo, so that is an invalid point. My point is, it is possible, through a number of different combinations to achieve defense, mitigation, and avoidance that makes you pretty much immune to melee dmg from mobs.I will be very surprised of Sony takes a few spells and just changes the value on them. The whole combat system needs to be looked over. Now the first start is to change the obvious...defense is a major part of combat, and we guardians can raise our defense (either with self or other classes buffs) so we tank as if we were 5 lvls higher or more. This is going to change I'm sure.Right now ALL tanks tank too well. Guardians by FAR tank too well. I don't for a second think we will no longer be the most defensive tank, but I do think the entire game is going to get a lot more difficult. I think the problem is just a lot easier to see with guardians than with the other classes since you need more help to achieve the mitigation/defense/avoidance of a guard, than with say a monk. I also expect they will be tweaking the combat system for another year at the least.Message Edited by Migyb on 03-29-2005 04:17 PM

Arsen

03-30-2005, 03:22 AM

They'll be tweaking the combat system for YEARS. Maybe not to this degree, but it will continue to be tweaked as content and features continue to get added in - it just the way these games work. Just because you know a change is going to come is no reason for panic. Its par for the course and we can affect those changes to some degree by making realistic suggestions on how to improve the game. How this defense nerf will work will be interesting - it is quite tough to balance the way that buffs stack, especially in a raid type situation. An easy fix for this would just be to nix the stacking effects, but they might try to go even further and change the way that level based avoidance works. You could say that tying level based avoidance to a skills that can be buffed (and stacked) is just not a good idea in general and is begging for unbalanced situations to occur like we have now. I have a feeling that they will split that out and make level based avoidance based purely on your level. Make defense add to your mitigation, and maybe make some changes to make parry more important (but possibly change it so that it is not all avoidance based). Any of those things would require a pretty major overhaul of the combat formulas though, so we will have to see how serious they are about changing the way the system works.

English Da Gua

03-30-2005, 03:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Migyb wrote: Go do HoF without ANY def buffs except your own. I promise you will not avoid all those attacks. It is hard to see why some of you think, even fellow guardians, the problem lies within the class. IT DOES NOT !AM <HR> But HoF was never intended for someone to solo, so that is an invalid point. My point is, it is possible, through a number of different combinations to achieve defense, mitigation, and avoidance that makes you pretty much immune to melee dmg from mobs. I will be very surprised of Sony takes a few spells and just changes the value on them. The whole combat system needs to be looked over. Now the first start is to change the obvious...defense is a major part of combat, and we guardians can raise our defense (either with self or other classes buffs) so we tank as if we were 5 lvls higher or more. This is going to change I'm sure. Right now ALL tanks tank too well. Guardians by FAR tank too well. I don't for a second think we will no longer be the most defensive tank, but I do think the entire game is going to get a lot more difficult. I think the problem is just a lot easier to see with guardians than with the other classes since you need more help to achieve the mitigation/defense/avoidance of a guard, than with say a monk. I also expect they will be tweaking the combat system for another year at the least. Message Edited by Migyb on 03-29-2005 04:17 PM <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> I did not once mention solo. Go at it with a full group, just don't have them use buffs on you. Gage stated in another thread I think he can self buff 15 DEF, I can buff 30, self buffed. Now tell me...15 defense I get to trade for the DPS a monk gets...is this too much? Perhaps, but it certainly should not be equal anyway, I should be able to add at least 5 if not more then that compared to a monk. Since 5 of my def that stacks is from a 3 min / 30 min recast spell, and another 5 is from a racial trait, that leaves me with +5 def self buffed compared to a monk. My point was simply you said WE, as in guardians, need to be nerfed, and this is not the case..far from it. And honestly, the more I look at it OUR self buffs have nothing to do with it either. A +5 Def (an ogre monk could take the two +5 traits) compared to more DPS isn't all that unbalanced. Heck, don't mess with Def at all. Make our avoidance max lower then a monk and increase our mitigation by a comparable amount and all should be fine. Then, make mobs hit harder and more often. All would be solved no? Message Edited by English Da Guard on 03-29-2005 02:37 PM

Gaige

03-30-2005, 03:45 AM

Hmm, I agree you should be more defensively oriented, with higher HP and higher mitigation. But I'm not sure if it should be 3 entire levels worth. That's like you being a lvl 56 defensively against my lvl 53. Albeit 10 of your defense is from racial traits, correct? So I suppose if it was just 5 that would be decent, but I still think they have to change how defense works.

English Da Gua

03-30-2005, 03:52 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: Hmm, I agree you should be more defensively oriented, with higher HP and higher mitigation. But I'm not sure if it should be 3 entire levels worth. That's like you being a lvl 56 defensively against my lvl 53. Albeit 10 of your defense is from racial traits, correct? So I suppose if it was just 5 that would be decent, but I still think they have to change how defense works. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> Exactly, 10 is from racial traits, which a monk could so choose. Don't get it twisted, I also feel DEF should be changed, trivial content is lame for everyone. The whole point of working your butt off for 50 levels is to have a chance at winning and getting uber loot and fun times. If it is trivial, heck, I my as well go to work as trivial does not equal fun. All I would like to see is monks avoiding more and me avoiding less, albeit when I get hit I wouldn't mind a tad bit more mitigation ><

Banditman

03-30-2005, 08:38 PM

The only reason you don't have a problem holding aggro over Priests right now is because Priests are, in effect, helping you hold aggro by healing you. Let me explain. When a Cleric or Shaman uses their "special" heal on you, the engine is currently assigning the aggro for that heal to YOU. Yes, this is a bug, and yes, it's going to be fixed. Ever notice how much harder it is to hold aggro when a Druid is healing? That's because Druids heal aggro is currently "working as intended". Don't take this for granted. It is going to change when Priest balance goes live, and those Clerics and Shaman are going to need some extra attention with regards to aggro.

SageMarrow

03-30-2005, 08:49 PM

nice observation cause i cant keep aggro off a mystic to save my [Removed for Content] life...

Banditman

03-30-2005, 10:30 PM

The reason there is that the "special" heal that Mystics were given is currently worthless in the endgame, meaning that a Mystic must resort to using their direct heals most of the time. Mystics using direct heals DO have their aggro "properly" assigned and therefore are more difficult to work with than Clerics.