Guardian Tanking

[Gnevil]

<DIV>First off my first post in our boards here at Sony.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To Gage *****   Jeezus man you seem to spend way to much time on the guardian boards posting your **** opinion ***** on what should be done to better balance the classes, specifically the monk class.  And it seems to be centered on your ability to tank effectively a raid ... ie Epic level mob.  That is not your job sir, you chose a monk, not a guard not a zerker, not even a pally but a monk.  Monks wear what a robe and some sandals and you expect to go up and take on said epic mob, hold agro, avoid death, not drain every single healer in your raid as if you were a guard in full plate armor??  Why in the hell do you wanna do that?  If you want that ability then please delete your monk, roll up a new fighter, go the guardian tree and knock yourself out tanking that raid mob.  After all thats what you wanna do isn't it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a guardian, recently dinged 36th, have been on about 5 raids so far and have found that my one and only calling as a guardian is my ability to run up, engage the mob, whether it be a group mob, double group mob or the recently added epic mobs and get the living hell beat outa me repeatedly while other players kill the mob.  Why do we take more then one tank class to a raid, well lets see, there are usually more then one mob around, and being the main tank its my job to hold agro on the main mob, let the other tanks, ie monks, pallys, bruisers ect grab those adds and beat the hell out them.  If Sony had intended me to be the only tank in an event then they would have given me an effective AREA TAUNT that grabs everything in a radius around the main group and hold it by repeatedly casting that taunt over and over and over.  But they didn't and I don't have that ability.  I do a good job of trying to grab agro on the adds when applicable, but in a major event that isn't ever possible or you will loose agro on the epic mob that will then run rampant thru the raid force and kill everyone.  In normal groups, all of the fighter classes make great tanks, we each have a job and are good at different things.  But for the raid level stuff, the guardian is the tank all the time every time.  Whether its because we avoid, mitigate or whatever it doesn't matter.  We are the tank, our job is to be a armored punching dummy, nothing more nothing less.  I never played a warrior in EQ1 I played all the other classes.  But in EQ2 I chose a guard because it looked like a fun way to get invited to groups.  We have decent taunts, we take less damage then the other classes and we can hold agro very well when played properly.  I don't ask for anything from Sony, I like my class I enjoy my groups, which by the way I have no trouble finding, I don't see anyone having any trouble finding a group to go out and adventure no matter what class they are.  In my guild I am the Tank ... I am not the dps, I am not the buffer, I am not the healer I am the tank... our other tanking class guildies are the off tanks, or in some groups where we really have it going we have two groups within a group with both myself and a Sk or Pally tanking separate pulls and the group just grinds right thru the mobs.  We both do a great job at it and help each other all the time with agro management.  Which is ultimately what the tanking classes are meant to do, manage agro so all the thin skinned. poorly armored classes dont get the hell beat out of them, while they are absolutely devastating those mobs with their major dps generators.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It just floors me that people like you will always scream loudly that their class is broken and that you are less then **** insert other class here ***** just because they can do item A better.  Since when does a monk ever main tank a raid level mob?  They never did in EQ 1, they pulled lived long enough for the MT to grab agro and then crept up behind said mob and beat the living bejezzus out of the mob while the tank stood there and took a hellish beating while trying to maintain agro.  You are not meant to main tank major mobs, ever!  It is not your role in this game and I wish you would just realize that and if you are hell bent on tanking a raid mob, then stop playing a monk sir.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes this game has some balance issues, but overall it was done pretty [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] well and they continue to make things better, and yes worse but the tanking in this game is pretty well balanced and with some minor tweaks it will only get better.  But no matter what they do you as a monk will never be the main tank on any epic level mob... in your own words sir .... DEAL WITH IT ......</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BLOCKQUOTE>Ha Ha.  Its been awhile since I had someone post an EQ1 mentality, monks wear robes and sandals, didn't tank in EQ1, do DPS and will never tank raid mobs post.</BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Thanks.</P> <P>Oh, and I will tank x4s, just wait and see.  Besides Jez already has as a bruiser.</P> <P>Now you guardians know why I post in your forums.  Because, as you see, you guys address posts to me.  What am I supposed to do?</P> <P><BR> </P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:41 AM</span>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>Oh, and I will tank x4s, just wait and see.  Besides Jez already has as a bruiser.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There ya go. Everything is working fine then and no changes need to be made.<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>Oh, and I will tank x4s, just wait and see.  Besides Jez already has as a bruiser.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>There ya go. Everything is working fine then and no changes need to be made.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>HaHa.  Well it was the angler and some other "what guardians call easy" x4.  I want to tank Darathar :smileysurprised:<BR>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR>HaHa.  Well it was the angler and some other "what guardians call easy" x4.  I want to tank Darathar :smileysurprised:<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So you want SoE to rebalance all fighters so you can tank ONE SINGLE MOB?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats a bold demand.</DIV><p>Message Edited by sidgb on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:57 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR>HaHa.  Well it was the angler and some other "what guardians call easy" x4.  I want to tank Darathar :smileysurprised:<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>So you want SoE to rebalance all fighters so you can tank ONE SINGLE MOB?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thats a bold demand. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*sigh*</P> <P>No, actually I want SoE to rebalance everyone so I can solo him.  I also want my name to be in red, to get free taco bell, and for Tara Reid to take me to the movies.</P> <P>If the game worked as intended any fighter could tank him, it'd just be harder for brawlers to do.<BR></P>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>If the game worked as intended any fighter could tank him, it'd just be harder for brawlers to do.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*sigh* *sigh*</P> <P>Thats true now. Just becuase it has not been done does not mean it cannot be done. Obviously other creative players are working out how it can be done and eventually they will tank all mobs as you seem to wish. Maybe you just really want it to be easy, you lack proper support or you just lack the imagination to work it out.</P><p>Message Edited by sidgb on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:15 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>If the game worked as intended any fighter could tank him, it'd just be harder for brawlers to do.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*sigh* *sigh*</P> <P>Thats true now. Just becuase it has not been done does not mean it cannot be done. Obviously other creative players are working out how it can be done and eventually they will tank all mobs as you seem to wish. Maybe you just really want it to be easy, you lack proper support or you just lack the imagination to work it out.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You're right.  Thanks for showing me the light.  I'll start playing tetris.  That's more my speed.<BR>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR>You're right.  Thanks for showing me the light.  I'll start playing tetris.  That's more my speed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Now Gage, in another thread you said you don't lie.:smileytongue:<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR>You're right.  Thanks for showing me the light.  I'll start playing tetris.  That's more my speed.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Now Gage, in another thread you said you don't lie.:smileytongue:<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I have tetris, on a few systems.  Its easy to find online too.  Besides, I <EM>am</EM> playing it.</P> <P>But I digress, I love quoting you but I must leave for a few hours, real life calls.</P> <P>I'm mad because my friend I play basketball with is taller, so I'm going to the gym to argue with him about balance, instead of actually playing.</P> <P>Because we all know I don't play the games I enjoy, I just argue about how unbalanced they are.</P> <P>Later <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I have tetris, on a few systems.  Its easy to find online too.  Besides, I <EM>am</EM> playing it.</P> <P>But I digress, I love quoting you but I must leave for a few hours, real life calls.</P> <P>I'm mad because my friend I play basketball with is taller, so I'm going to the gym to argue with him about balance, instead of actually playing.</P> <P>Because we all know I don't play the games I enjoy, I just argue about how unbalanced they are.</P> <P>Later <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>But is it really more your speed?</P> <P>Balance in basketball is easy even if he is taller, just knee him in the groin and go for the shot.:smileyvery-happy:<BR></P>

[Sunrayn]

<P>I have read most of your posts here Gage.</P> <P>Let me get this straight in my head.</P> <P>You have said that you have tanked from 1-50, and have done good dps...Yet you are still complaining about your tanking ability?</P> <P>You are right, you dont want to be a guardian.  You want to be god.</P> <P> </P> <P>Sunrayn-half elf shaman, Garinof-wood elf guardian, Brett-barbarian summoner</P>

[Gaige]

<P>The game doesn't stop at 50, nor do I stop being a fighter, a brawler, or a monk, all of which are tanks.</P> <P>If there is a mob monks/bruisers can't tank but other fighters can, that's broken.</P> <P>Sorry, but that's how it is.</P>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <P>The game doesn't stop at 50, nor do I stop being a fighter, a brawler, or a monk, all of which are tanks.</P> <P>If there is a mob monks/bruisers can't tank but other fighters can, that's broken.</P> <P>Sorry, but that's how it is.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>No, its not broken.  You just cant see past your own ego.  You want what guardians have and at the same time, keep your own abilities intact.  </P> <P>As for other fighters tanking things that a monk/bruiser cant.  Isnt it logical that a plate wearing class can tank things a cloth wearing class cant?  Or does logic even play a part in your world?</P> <P>Yeah, you can avoid most of my attacks, but when I hit you, you will be buttoning your shirt from the back, because my hit is gonna drive  the front of your shirt clean through your body to the other side.</P>

[Gaige]

And isn't it logical that someone wearing a 300lb suit of armor wouldn't avoid period.

[Sunrayn]

<P>I havent heard one 'sane' voice saying that our avoidance shouldnt be fixed.  It should be.  But, the avoidance we will lose will be turned into mitigation as it should have been from the start and that is what makes you unhappy.</P> <P>You seem to want guardians to wear plate and mitigate like a cloth or leather wearer.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>And isn't it logical that someone wearing a 300lb suit of armor wouldn't avoid period. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats correct, but we Block ( Shield ) and Parry = Avoid.</P> <P>Think Gage, think.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Korganaxe]

i want to see some of that 300 lb armor, must have beefy mitigation.

[maluv]

<P>i kinda wish monk woulda been put in to the scout arch... i know they are NOT scouts, but they should be a <U>strong</U> dps. in eq1 ppls are saying monks couldn't tank... or whatever, but monks could tank and they didn't do to bad. they where awsome dps though. with my monk i had even out tank warriors of my lvl. but thats not my point.</P> <P>monks IMHO should maybe have been put into a dps class more so. but they'd still have the ability to tank, from playing eq1 and going to the <U>sequal</U> of the game, u'd think that much of the concept of gameplay styles would stay about the same. they did. but they also didn't. now monks are considered tanks... for what reason - dunno. but they where dps, i know this isn't Everquest1.... but it is Everquest2 which u'd think would have some play. its not ment to be a totaly differant game, but a much more advanced futuristic norrath. </P> <P>i'm also just thinking that from my raid experience in eq1, that u need more dps then tanking. </P> <P>so if monk where a more focused dps. then their would be more need for at a raid. i'm not saying their not, becuase i dont know, but i do know that u dont need a raid full of tanks. and dps would help a whole lot more.</P> <P>this is just my opinion.. not ment as a flame or anything, i'm prolly going to start a monk, but i haven't even started playing yet. tomarrow if alls lucky, but i've been reading everything i can for the time being trying to figure a class to play but i like them all so well. i just see the monk as more of a dps focused ninja/tranquil damaging beat your face in, in the night before you know it kinda person. not a i'm let u beat my face in while i hit u till u die and hopefully i last longer tank. that to me is a warrior...</P> <P>just a thought :smileyvery-happy:</P> <P> </P>

[JBo]

<DIV>This all fighters can tank all mobs thinking must be changed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Even if devs change it so monks can tank all mobs, it will be changed back later.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Cause people will whine monks are too powerful, and call nerf bat on monks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> JBoot wrote:<BR> <DIV>This all fighters can tank all mobs thinking must be changed.</DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Why?  The game was released stating that all fighter classes can tank, that is the fighters primary role.  That includes: Warriors, Crusaders, and Brawlers.  All of the classes should be able to tank as their primary role.  How to balance each archtype so they are still desirable when not being a main tank is the responibilty of SOE.</P> <P> </P>

[Snikey]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Why?  The game was released stating that all fighter classes can tank, that is the fighters primary role.  That includes: Warriors, Crusaders, and Brawlers.  All of the classes should be able to tank as their primary role.  How to balance each archtype so they are still desirable when not being a main tank is the responibilty of SOE.<BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>For the love of god stop quoting advertisements. Those write ups were by the PR department... you treat them like gold. Monks fill 2 roles... tank and dps.</P> <P>Oh my group has spot open for dps... hmm only a guardian and monk lfg... which one should I pick. Thats what I thought... get over yourself that monks are NOT the goto raid tank, guardians are NOT a goto for dps.</P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Cod]

<DIV>Really hard to understand all the fuss, no matter how or if the system is changed plate tanks will always tank better than light armor tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This was obvious from the class descriptions. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You might not care for the trade offs that you got, "fluff abilities" or a slight dps advantage, but it was obvious to me anyway that all those things in some way get wieghed by the devs and subtracted from the core mission tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Similarly wizards got a few fluff abilities better mana dump and evac and took a hit dps wise for it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What this means to me anyway is that the only time light armor tanks will be MA on a raid is when the raid is trivilized by gear and or levels.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Snikey wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Why?  The game was released stating that all fighter classes can tank, that is the fighters primary role.  That includes: Warriors, Crusaders, and Brawlers.  All of the classes should be able to tank as their primary role.  How to balance each archtype so they are still desirable when not being a main tank is the responibilty of SOE.<BR></P> <HR> <P> </P> <P>For the love of god stop quoting advertisements. Those write ups were by the PR department... you treat them like gold. Monks fill 2 roles... tank and dps.</P> <P>Oh my group has spot open for dps... hmm only a guardian and monk lfg... which one should I pick. Thats what I thought... get over yourself that monks are NOT the goto raid tank, guardians are NOT a goto for dps.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You. Are. Wrong.  Scouts are the melee DPS tree.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>According to Moorgard two things are being looked into:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The difference done between scout/fighter DPS to ensure that scouts do the most.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The difference between evasion/mitigation and how defensive buffs work, to ensure that brawlers and all fighters are tanks and that content isn't trivial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Neither of these changes back up what you are claiming, in fact they reinforce the opposite.<BR></DIV>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>The difference between evasion/mitigation and how defensive buffs work, to ensure that brawlers and all fighters are tanks and that content isn't trivial.</P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Neither of these changes back up what you are claiming, in fact they reinforce the opposite.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Sorry, but all brawlers and fighters are tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you had the ability to tank anything that a guardian can tank, content would be trivial.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But, you will never understand those two points.  Its too bad really that you spent 50 levels not being able to tank everything that a guardian could.  Oh wait, you did tank everything a guardian tanked.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it just took you 50 levels to figure out that you picked the wrong class and that you really wanted to be a guardian.  Now, because of that, you want SOE to make you into something you just arent equipped to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you cant figure out that a plate wearing tank is better than a cloth wearing one, then nobody can help you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit* spelling 1--me 0</DIV><p>Message Edited by Sunrayn on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:47 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <DIV>I think it just took you 50 levels to figure out that you picked the wrong class and that you really wanted to be a guardian.  Now, because of that, you want SOE to make you into something you just arent equipped to be.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you cant figure out that a plate wearing tank is better than a cloth wearing one, then nobody can help you.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*edit* spelling 1--me 0 <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For the last time, I do not want to be a guardian.  I have 5 other slots that I could have a 50 guardian on by now, if I so chose.  I've been 50 since early January, therefore I've had adequate time to decide if I like my class or not.</P> <P>You are exactly right, I tanked everything a guardian can from 1 to 50, and raids should be the same.  For all fighter classes.  Because we are all tanks.</P> <P>This is fantasy, I shouldn't have to figure out that a plate wearing tank is better.</P> <P>But, just for grins, think of this:</P> <P>Heavy armor tank: gets hit every time</P> <P>Cloth wear: NEVER gets hit.</P> <P>Well, seems to be that never getting hit wouldn't hurt too much.</P> <P>/shrug this is a game, and has to be balanced accordingly, if the monk class is designed to be subpar in both tanking, utility and damage done then I'll play a different game.  Only if SoE comes out and says that though.</P> <P>The fact is there is nothing we can do that another class can't do better, including DPS and utility.</P> <P>We are tanks.  We should be roughly equal to other tanks (not the same ~ able to tank content they can even if its harder/longer/etc) or else there would be no reason to play our class.</P> <P>FD - SK's get</P> <P>Invis - Mage's/Scout's get</P> <P>DPS - Scouts are or will be better.</P> <P>Heal - Pally's/Healers are better</P> <P>Safefall - Scouts get</P> <P>So either we are balanced as adequate tanks for all encounters, or I can't really see any reason for playing a monk to and in the end game.</P> <P>1 to 50 is just the road traveled, it isn't the entire game.  So saying I should be satisfied with 1 to 50 grind content is insulting.</P> <P>Look at EQ1, whole lot of grinding and xp groups going on over there the past few years, eh?<BR></P>

[Ashtaro]

<P>Yes, and what class can tank better than a scout and put out more dps than a guardian?  Hmmmm.... brawlers maybe?  That's how you're balanced.  If you don't like that balance, then roll a guardian.  Or a scout.  Or whatever the hell it is you want to have "equal" abilities with.  Or quit.  I really don't care.  They are never getting rid of your DPS, and are never giving it to guardians (who don't want it).  Thus, we will never be equal.  Period.</P> <P>By your logic, mages should be the best tanks in the game.</P> <P>/boggle</P><p>Message Edited by Ashtaroth on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:55 AM</span>

[Ja]

<span><blockquote><hr>Ashtaroth wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <p>Yes, and what class can tank better than a scout and put out more dps than a guardian?  Hmmmm.... brawlers maybe?  That's how you're balanced.  If you don't like that balance, then roll a guardian.  Or a scout.  Or whatever the hell it is you want to have "equal" abilities with.  Or quit.  I really don't care.  They are never getting rid of your DPS, and are never giving it to guardians (who don't want it).  Thus, we will never be equal.  Period.</p> <p>By your logic, mages should be the best tanks in the game.</p> <p>/boggle</p><p>Message Edited by Ashtaroth on <span class="date_text">03-26-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:55 AM</span></p><hr></blockquote> Thats just ______. So brawlers are allowed (thanks for allowing us Guardians) to be either half-[Removed for Content] tanks or half-[Removed for Content] DPS. Yeah, that seems balanced. Wouldn't that mean that you would pick a brawler for a group only if you couldn't find anyone else to better do the job you are looking for? Great, so now, you feel, in order for brawlers to be classed as balanced, we should be at the bottom of the pile of classes you would choose for a group. A last resort, just in case you cannot find better to fill the spot.</span><div></div>

[Ashtaro]

<P>Brawlers can tank just fine in groups, and you know it.  In fact, the only ones they can't tank (and this is debatable) are the hardest raid mobs in the game.  And yet they still want more.</P> <P>In fact, I will go so far as to say that brawlers are BETTER tanks for experience groups than guardians because higher DPS = faster kills = more experience over time.</P> <p>Message Edited by Ashtaroth on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:30 AM</span>

[Sunrayn]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You are exactly right, I tanked everything a guardian can from 1 to 50, and raids should be the same.  For all fighter classes.  Because we are all tanks.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We are tanks.  We should be roughly equal to other tanks (not the same ~ able to tank content they can even if its harder/longer/etc) or else there would be no reason to play our class.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I really have to ask at this point because I dont remember ever seeing your answer to this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have *you* actually tried to tank raid mobs?  Do you know for certain, 100% sure, that you cant?  Or are you just going on what others say?</DIV>

[Ashtaro]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <DIV>I really have to ask at this point because I dont remember ever seeing your answer to this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have *you* actually tried to tank raid mobs?  Do you know for certain, 100% sure, that you cant?  Or are you just going on what others say?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Probably not, but when he does, he should do it naked!  OMG he'll NEVER get hit!<BR>

[maluv]

<DIV>I think monks should be able to tank raid mobs if its a *must*. i still have a hard time thinking that the monk should be in the "Tanking" class, its should more be a dps, with the ability to tank group mobs, why must a monk tank a raid mob? dunno, never felt the NEED to in eq1, did it some times on the easier ones etc...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but for the sequal of eq to place a leather type class into the tanking area doesn't seem right.</DIV>

[Ashtaro]

<P>I don't really care if they can tank... as long as they don't tank as well as guardians.  And if that means they aren't suited to tank the hardest mobs in the game, then so be it.  Like I said, they aren't gonna do a "switcharoo" on the dps, so the two archtypes will never be equal in every aspect, and they shouldn't be.  This uniclass mentality is just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</P> <P>You don't have to "give up" your abilities in an experience group.  Its not either/or.  You can still tank just fine AND put out superior dps.</P>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashtaroth wrote:<BR> <P>Yes, and what class can tank better than a scout and put out more dps than a guardian? </P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I know I am going to get 1 starred for this...  But just had to be said...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>CLERICS!!!!!!!!!!  :smileyvery-happy::smileyvery-happy:</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You are exactly right, I tanked everything a guardian can from 1 to 50, and raids should be the same.  For all fighter classes.  Because we are all tanks.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We are tanks.  We should be roughly equal to other tanks (not the same ~ able to tank content they can even if its harder/longer/etc) or else there would be no reason to play our class.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I really have to ask at this point because I dont remember ever seeing your answer to this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have *you* actually tried to tank raid mobs?  Do you know for certain, 100% sure, that you cant?  Or are you just going on what others say?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>He doesnt have to answer that, skim the Monk and Bruiser boards, your answers are there in reguards to what high end monks are doing in high end raids, and the answer to your question seeing as a cat has Gages tounge is, Yes there tanking high end raids, that means lvl 54+ <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> groupx4 encounters.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Im sorry let me rephrase some of that answer, Monks are too busy fighting some imaginery balance picket post war, while on the other hand Bruisers are proving its balanced.</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810</A></P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But Hang on, Brawlers cant tank raids? Time to lay down the pickets Monks, head on home, and try and come up with new ways to become a Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[xxalan]

<DIV>I think that all this will end up getting monks avoidance raised and dps nerfed, then they will see how silly they were being since they make fine tanks in the first place.  I take monks over pally's as mt's because they can hold aggro better if they know what they are doing, so no need to complain.  Guardians only have their taunts and their defence, so they should be mt's in raids that have lots of dps going.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Sunrayn wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You are exactly right, I tanked everything a guardian can from 1 to 50, and raids should be the same.  For all fighter classes.  Because we are all tanks.</DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We are tanks.  We should be roughly equal to other tanks (not the same ~ able to tank content they can even if its harder/longer/etc) or else there would be no reason to play our class.</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>I really have to ask at this point because I dont remember ever seeing your answer to this.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Have *you* actually tried to tank raid mobs?  Do you know for certain, 100% sure, that you cant?  Or are you just going on what others say?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yup, I have.  Unfortunately my MT groups haven't been as uber as Noah's, so I haven't been successful yet.  Hopefully I will be.  But not at the cost of having an uber elite MT/raid setup where a templar could tank a x4.<BR>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashtaroth wrote:<BR> <P>I don't really care if they can tank... as long as they don't tank as well as guardians.  And if that means they aren't suited to tank the hardest mobs in the game, then so be it.  Like I said, they aren't gonna do a "switcharoo" on the dps, so the two archtypes will never be equal in every aspect, and they shouldn't be.  This uniclass mentality is just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</P> <P>You don't have to "give up" your abilities in an experience group.  Its not either/or.  You can still tank just fine AND put out superior dps.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We don't have to be exactly equal to fulfill the MT spot for groups/raids equally.  That shows a lack of vision on your part for thinking so.</P> <P>We don't have to tank as well as a guardian to tank Darathar.  Paladin's don't tank as well as you, and they've tanked Darathar.</P> <P>SoE never stated "except for raid mobs" "except for x4" "except for Darathar".  They said archetype balance meant that any fighter could fill the role of the class for their group, period.</P> <P>There was no exclusions or exceptions.</P> <P>I certainly wouldn't have signed up for a class that at 50 in the endgame is worse than another class in every possible category, I mean who would?<BR></P>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashtaroth wrote:<BR> <P>I don't really care if they can tank... as long as they don't tank as well as guardians.  And if that means they aren't suited to tank the hardest mobs in the game, then so be it.  Like I said, they aren't gonna do a "switcharoo" on the dps, so the two archtypes will never be equal in every aspect, and they shouldn't be.  This uniclass mentality is just [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</P> <P>You don't have to "give up" your abilities in an experience group.  Its not either/or.  You can still tank just fine AND put out superior dps.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We don't have to be exactly equal to fulfill the MT spot for groups/raids equally.  That shows a lack of vision on your part for thinking so.</P> <P>We don't have to tank as well as a guardian to tank Darathar.  Paladin's don't tank as well as you, and they've tanked Darathar.</P> <P>SoE never stated "except for raid mobs" "except for x4" "except for Darathar".  They said archetype balance meant that any fighter could fill the role of the class for their group, period.</P> <P>There was no exclusions or exceptions.</P> <P>I certainly wouldn't have signed up for a class that at 50 in the endgame is worse than another class in every possible category, I mean who would?<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>But you already do fill the role Gage, You already can tank that content. You arent exactly equal yet you get it done, point?</P> <P>Btw you are right they never said that, they said some would be better in certain situations and raid mobs are situations, some you can tank some you prolly have a hard time with, i'd called that situational wouldn't you???</P> <P>And you arent worse in every category, you are discounting your other skills and abilities other tanks do not possess.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethane wrote:<BR><BR> <P>And you arent worse in every category, you are discounting your other skills and abilities other tanks do not possess.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They said certain tanks would have advantages in certain situations, but that all tanks can fill the primary role for their group.</P> <P>But whatever?</P> <P>We aren't worse in every category?</P> <P>We are, supposedly, the 5th best tank, the 13th best DPS and maybe the 8th best utility?  I guess utility is relative, depending on what the group needs.  But I've never seen "group needs FD" "group needs mend" "group needs monk with invis".  I have seen "group wants breeze, evac, group invis" etc.</P> <P>By design two archetypes DPS better (along with bruiser) and "by design" supposedly 4 tanks tank better.</P> <P>The arguement that guardians use, is good for us too.</P> <P>Guardians say "omg we never get picked to offtank/dps unless no one else is available".</P> <P>Guess what, we aren't going to be picked over scouts/mages for slots either.  And by your guy's opinions we shouldn't be picked to tank unless sk/pally/zerk/guardian isn't available.</P> <P>So...right.<BR></P> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:38 PM</span>

[Ashtaro]

<DIV>I really don't care what "other classes" can do better than monks.  You aren't an enchanter, scout, cleric, and you aren't a guardian either.  You're a monk.  You know what that enchanter has to live with for that breeze and group invis?  That's right, the sh*tiest dps of all mage classes.  You can't have it all.  You say you wouldn't have made a monk if you knew you had to sacrifice the tankability of a guardian for your superior DPS and utility over a guardian?  Well, again I say, too bad.  That shows a short-sightedness on your part of what your really wanted to do in this game, nothing more.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I <EM>knew</EM> I wanted the best tankabilty, I <EM>knew</EM> I didn't care about utility skills, and I <EM>knew</EM> I didn't care about DPS.  I knew this by the time I got to level 10.  You enjoyed all those things all the way to level 50 (hard time finding groups eh?), and, after discovering that there's 1 or 2 mobs in the entire game that you may or may not be able to tank, you want to give all that up (and you <EM>will</EM> have to - which isn't going to fly with other brawlers) to tank like a guardian?  I'm sorry but... DUH.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you want me to buy into the idea that you should tank as well as a guardian, then list what a <EM>guardian</EM> can do better than <EM>you, </EM>not what some other class can do better than you.  Then list what <EM>you</EM> can do better than a <EM>guardian</EM>.  I'm pretty sure the lists will not be of equal lengths.  I also think you will find that the guardian list will be overwhelmingly composed of things specific to tanking, and the monk list, well... won't.  Coincidence?? </DIV>

[Belce]

<P>to quote Gage</P> <P>"Heavy armor tank: gets hit every time</P> <P>Cloth wear: NEVER gets hit."</P> <P>To quote Sony</P> <P>"Not all tanks are meant to tank each situation equally"</P> <P>sorry, you are wrong.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belce wrote:<BR> <P>"Not all tanks are meant to tank each situation equally"</P> <P>sorry, you are wrong.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, but it doesn't say "not all tanks are meant to tank each situation".</P> <P>I've already deferred that I accept being able to do it not as well as the plate classes.  It just shouldn't be impossible.  My group/raid should have a moderate chance at success.  Not predetermined failure.<BR></P>

[Morriz]

I think a few with their thinking caps on might agree that the other tank classes are actually better for exp groups. Who needs the Guardian taking 3% less damage on normal exp mobs? But hey a class with 40 or more DPS than a Guard, that takes 5% more damage, hmm sound good for exp groups. That seems situational. Gage, noone can argue against you on your point about 'predetermined failure' because we don't know what your raid group is and what your raid targets are. Isn't Jezekiel proving one by one that Brawlers can tank raid mobs? I just don't see the proof that it's 'impossible'. You recognise that plate tanks are always going to have a little easier time raid tanking because of their predictable damage intake. <div></div>

[English Da Gua]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethane wrote:<BR><BR> <P>And you arent worse in every category, you are discounting your other skills and abilities other tanks do not possess.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>They said certain tanks would have advantages in certain situations, but that all tanks can fill the primary role for their <FONT color=#ffff00>group</FONT>.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>  Since you get on people so much for the words they use, my turn =P You do fill the primary role for your group, just not for your raid. Seems to me based on what YOU said, all is good =)</FONT></P> <P>But whatever?</P> <P>We aren't worse in every category?</P> <P>We are, supposedly, the 5th best tank, the 13th best DPS and maybe the 8th best utility?  I guess utility is relative, depending on what the group needs.  But I've never seen "group needs FD" "group needs mend" "group needs monk with invis".  I have seen "group wants breeze, evac, group invis" etc.</P> <P>By design two archetypes DPS better (along with bruiser) and "by design" supposedly 4 tanks tank better.</P> <P>  <FONT color=#ffcc00> Here is the problem, you do all things ADEQUATE. You are a hybrid class, no one had to explain this to you when you chose a monk, it was bloody obvious. You excel at nothing and are inferior (relative term) at nothing. You can tank, just not everything a plate wearer can. You can DPS, just not as good as a scout or mage. You can provide utility, although most classes can provide some. Guardians tank in the top 3, DPS below you, and provide a similar amount of worthless utility.</FONT></P> <P>The arguement that guardians use, is good for us too.</P> <P>Guardians say "omg we never get picked to offtank/dps unless no one else is available".</P> <P>Guess what, we aren't going to be picked over scouts/mages for slots either.  And by your guy's opinions we shouldn't be picked to tank unless sk/pally/zerk/guardian isn't available.</P> <P> <FONT color=#ffcc00> Ok DPS needed : Scout / mage > monk > guardian ....  Tank needed guardian > monk > scout / mage. Now a guardian can DPS and a monk can tank, and honestly in a group a monk makes a great tank, on par with a guardian if he can play his class.  </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>   You have said yourself 1-50 you are balanced. Even the PR people said all tanks will fill their primary role, it was your assumption that a fighter's primary role would not be to off tank. No where does it say you will be able to MT ALL raids, it says fill a primary role. You people out there manifested this primary role idea of MTing. You assumed "I am a fighter, the PR staff said we can all fill our primary role, and that role must be to MT." By assuming this and leaving no options open for yourself you only can do two things. Admit you made a mistake or go on this crusade. Honestly, I agree def buffs need to be fixed. But assuming a monk will tank as well as a plate tank, please man, you are smarter then that. And, as the game progresses the disparity will only grow. Gear will be tailored to specific classes, and the HP difference will only grow between a guard and a monk. AEs will be more powerful and you can't avoid them no matter your avoidance level. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffcc00>   Min/ Max will always choose the BEST min/max class. Thing is, you do not need to be a min/maxer to win. I truly think once def buffs and your avoidance are fixed, you will be able to MT, although I think you prolly could now as Jez is doing. But in the end I ask man, will you be happy being able to tank, yet still not be chosen if a guardian or pally are at that raid? In the end, mitigation > avoidance. Avoidance tanks WILL DIE more often then mitigation tanks, all things being equal. Why, because 3 bad rolls, only 3, will probably kill you, where as a plate wearer will have taken far less damage from those 3 bad rolls, plus a plate class has more HPs. ATM this # may not be a lot, but as the game grows so will this gap.</FONT></P> <P>So...right. <FONT color=#ffff00>I agree</FONT></P> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>03-26-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>09:38 PM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:49 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>My entire problem with most people's mentality regarding this issue is that SoE never comes out and says:</P> <P>Brawlers are tanks, sometimes.</P> <P>Brawlers are tanks, in xp groups.</P> <P>Brawlers are tanks, except for raids.</P> <P>Brawlers are tanks, except when any other fighter is available.</P> <P>They simply say, brawlers are tanks.</P> <P>Every change put into the game reinforces that role, it doesn't change it nor skew it towards offtank/dps/utility.</P> <P>If that was the case, why don't they just come out and say it.</P>

[Mie]

<DIV>Gaga ,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you see a Brawlers use shield ?</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mielx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gaga ,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you see a Brawlers use shield ?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For about a month after release, until they implemented an "internal" shield so that we could dual wield and use 2h while tanking.</P><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:44 AM</span>

[Zerofault]

<DIV>Hey, go visit the Monk forums and see why he doesn't post there as much,.... He gets flamed there too hahhahahha....  Thats so sad Gage.. seems most of your fellow monks are happy and proud with their class and sick of you...  You need some serious help.. for real.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV>

[Stra]

<span><blockquote><hr>Zerofault wrote:<div>Hey, go visit the Monk forums and see why he doesn't post there as much,.... He gets flamed there too hahhahahha....  Thats so sad Gage.. seems most of your fellow monks are happy and proud with their class and sick of you...  You need some serious help.. for real.</div> <div> </div> <div>Lodoz</div><hr></blockquote>Ive been hearing the same thing from other monks. It seems like he is one of a very small subset of Brawler, Crusader whiners. Unfortunately they are amazingly vocal. .. weird that such a common acronym is now considered profanity ... *shrug* At any rate I edited the post. But sorry gage, I sincerely doubt that me telling you to shut up will get me banned. Not even SOE are that bad. </span><div></div>

[Dbil]

<FONT size=7>HAHA!</FONT> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You have been reported!  You're going to get banerated.  Be afraid be very afraid!  :smileyvery-happy: :smileywink:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That Gage is a powerful poster.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Strast wrote:<BR><SPAN>Ive been hearing the same thing from other monks. It seems like he is one of a very small subset of Brawler, Crusader whiners. Unfortunately they are amazingly vocal. <BR><BR>.. weird that such a common acronym is now considered profanity ... *shrug* <BR><BR>At any rate I edited the post. <BR><BR>But sorry gage, I sincerely doubt that me telling you to shut up will get me banned. Not even SOE are that bad. </SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Come on Strast you are a smart guy, I'm sure you can figure out what the acronym stands for, right?<BR> <p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:44 AM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Zerofault wrote:<BR> <DIV>Hey, go visit the Monk forums and see why he doesn't post there as much,.... He gets flamed there too hahhahahha....  Thats so sad Gage.. seems most of your fellow monks are happy and proud with their class and sick of you...  You need some serious help.. for real.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lodoz</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>HAHAHAHA.  Yes yes, you are so right.  My pm box isn't full of monks and others thanking me for the posts I make because they agree with what I think.</P> <P>I should go seek out a therapist because people on a video game forum don't agree with me!</P> <P>Actually, I post on the monk forums the most, probably 80% of my posts I'd guess <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>I should go seek out a therapist because people on a video game forum don't agree with me!</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>You know what they say Gage. The first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem.</DIV>

[Vac]

<P>Given enough healers, anyone can tank. Guardians tank best. Then other plate tanks, then brawlers. Then scouts? hmm maybe. I think a bard could tank a raid mob with enough healers. Swan song sure seems to [Removed for Content] the mobs off enough. I still want to see an enchanter do it <img src="/smilies/b2eb59423fbf5fa39342041237025880.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>So, given the situation, you CAN tank. 1 monk, 2 enchanters, 21 healers.. sure the monk can tank. Hell he could do it with a normal raid, just add a couple more healers. You can tank just like any other tank class, you just can't do it aswell because you can do other things to. If you didn't want to do these other things, if you wanted to be a pure tank why did you make a monk? I don't care what sony said at release about every fighter tanking equally. If you believed that, this is a lost cause anyway. Why make different classes if they all tank the same?</P> <P> The reason Guardians take the tank job, is they don't need as many backups to accomplish the same task, keeping the big mean mob off the rest of us. Mitigation is more reliable, if less efficient, and stability provides the best results with the way raids go in this game. When the only thing that's required is to outlast the mob, and power isn't a problem, all you're trying to do is keep mistakes from happening. What good is dodging 50 hits in a row, when, eventually, he's going to tear into your [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] and you are going to die? So unless you want the mitigation of one of the heavy plate tanks, you'll always be the sub-par tank in that sort of situation.</P>

[Gaige]

The problem is that right now guardians are relying on avoidance to tank raid mobs and then stating it requires good mitigation.

[Banditman]

<P>The real problem is that you don't understand that mitigation is reported in game as avoidance in some situations.</P> <P>I'm not talking about SOE's "new" display of mitigation and avoidance.  I don't buy their numbers for a minute.  They are STILL just showing you an effect.</P> <P>Until zero damage hits are reported AS SUCH by the engine, the mitigation and avoidance numbers reported in game are all worth next to nothing.</P>

[Gaige]

It would take 100% mitigation to make an attack do 0 damage, which I do not believe is possible.  If it is, its overpowering and needs to be changed.

[Mie]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mielx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gaga ,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you see a Brawlers use shield ?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For about a month after release, until they implemented an "internal" shield so that we could dual wield and use 2h while tanking.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>03-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:44 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is , so if Brusier can tank. All tank class should have "internal" shield too. Why only Brusier can do more dps while tanking ?!

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mielx wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mielx wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gaga ,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When you see a Brawlers use shield ?</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>For about a month after release, until they implemented an "internal" shield so that we could dual wield and use 2h while tanking.</P> <P>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <SPAN class=date_text>03-29-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:44 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That is , so if Brusier can tank. All tank class should have "internal" shield too. Why only Brusier can do more dps while tanking ?! <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>By design the brawler is the offensive class of the fighter, and so are its subclasses (albeit the monk is more defensive than the bruiser) and the game is designed that way.</P> <P>The added damage makes up for the lack of taunts.  The better damage a fighter does, the less effective its taunts are.  Which is why most of the bruiser ones add fear, and the brawler classes suffer one less taunt line than the warrior tree.<BR></P>

[Banditman]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>It would take 100% mitigation to make an attack do 0 damage, which I do not believe is possible.  If it is, its overpowering and needs to be changed. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Are you seriously asking me to believe that you don't understand that mechanic ?</P> <P>Let me explain something that apparently you've not heard before.  This is well known (I thought) information, but apparently it needs to be said.</P> <P>Not all "avoidance" is actual avoidance.  </P> <P>When a mob swings, it first must roll against various factors to hit the player.  This is strait avoidance here.  Either the mob misses or hits at this point, and a miss is simply reported as a miss.</P> <P>However, if this roll comes up as a hit, the game can STILL report a miss.  No, I'm not talking about dodge, block, parry, riposte or any of that.  We're past that point.  We're at the point where the mob actually made contact with the player.</P> <P>Now, you would "think" that at this point, you're going to see a damage report.  Not so.  This is where the damage tables for the mob and the mitigation tables for the player have to agree on what damage was done.  The actual formula for determining this is not known, and I don't forsee the devs making it available to us.  That'd sure be nice, but it isn't gonna happen.</P> <P>However, we can manipulate that formula by influencing the factors that go into it and observing the results.</P> <P>When a mob (or a player) is determining how hard it can hit, one of the major factors in that is Strength.  Mobs (and players) with higher Strength simply hit harder.  By lowering that factor, you should, in theory at least, lower the amount of damage a mob does swing over swing.</P> <P>That is not what happens.</P> <P>When you decrease the Strength of a mob, the average damage done by the mob DOES NOT CHANGE.  The "high hit" done by the mob DOES NOT CHANGE.  Statistically, the hits reported by the engine when a mob has it's Strength debuffed DO NOT CHANGE.</P> <P>However, what you do see is a significant increase in the number of "misses" reported by the engine.  Funny thing is, the only way to explain this in every situation is that these new "misses" are actually zero damage hits.  This is an old EQ1 mechanic that I suppose they didn't see fit to change for EQ2.</P> <P>There is, for each damage and mitigation comparison, some point where the damage done is zero or even negative.  The game engine, for whatever reason, doesn't have a unique way to report these "hits".  It instead says "since no damage was done, this was a miss" and reports it as such.</P> <P>So you see, those "avoidance" numbers we see in our Persona screen are very wishy washy.  You'd really need a Shaman to test it, since Wards have no AC you can really see mitigation at work (or, in this case, not working) when a Ward is present.</P>