If we get nerfed I quit

[ArcisFort]

<DIV>This is bullcrap.  If they make it so we all tank the same, I well quit eq2.  I have been a fanboi for over 2 years.  When 90% of my guild quit and went to play WoW I stayed. I have invested a huge amout of time in EQ2, and I pay for 2 accounts.  If monks and pally's  and any other female dogs want to tank the same as a guardian, take away all their dps and heals they get over guardians (but then we would all be the same).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a guardian. I am the Main tank take that away and I quit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  If you feel the same. Let SoE Know since it seems the squeaky wheel gets the grease around here.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by ArcisFortis on <SPAN class=date_text>03-24-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>02:35 PM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by ArcisFortis on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:38 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>i dont quit if someone gets nerfed, </P> <P>i quit if soe takes the easy way out and scews the system to make thier lives easier and solidifies their role as a mediocre MMO by making all the classes the same with just a different name.</P>

[Gaige]

<DIV>Comparing us to female dogs, nice.</DIV>

[Ja]

<span><blockquote><hr>ArcisFortis wrote:<div></div> <div></div> <div>This is bullcrap.  If they make it so we all tank the same, I well quit eq2.  I have been a fanboi for over 2 years.  When 90% of my guild quit and went to play WoW I stayed. I have invested a huge amout of time in EQ2, and I pay for 2 accounts.  If monks and pally's  and any other female dogs want to tank the same as a guardian, take away all their dps and heals they get over guardians (but then we would all be the same).</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>I am a guardian. I am the Main tank take that away and I quit.</div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div> </div> <div>P.S.  If you feel the same. Let SoE Know since it seems the squeaky wheel gets the grease around here.</div> <p>Message Edited by ArcisFortis on <span class="date_text">03-24-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:35 PM</span></p><p>Message Edited by ArcisFortis on <span class="date_text">03-24-2005</span> <span class="time_text">02:38 PM</span></p><hr></blockquote> I have to say it. Arc, can I have your stuff? And the more detailed reply, dumbed down, so everyone can get it: Fighters=Tanks not: Guardians=Tanks Everyone else=I don't care, because Guardians=Tanks</span><div></div>

[ArcisFort]

<DIV>I just dont see how if I have the lowest DPS and no utility spells, that others should tank the same.  If they make it so that other class tank as well as guardians we well never get a group, cause we have nothing to bring to the group. I form lots of groups and I will invite other fighter class, such as Pally's cause they can heal and do ok DPS, and monks cause they do hella DPS, Berserkers cause they do nice DPS  ect. ect. But i hate having another Guardian in the groups cause they just are not good at anything but being the MT. If you guys cant see that then your not trying.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is off the SoE main site under class</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian= Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They will stand firm against <EM><U><STRONG>any threat </STRONG></U></EM>and lead their party to victory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks= Monks are disciplined combatants who <EM><U><STRONG>specialize in the martial arts</STRONG></U></EM>. Their natural agility allows them to avoid their enemy's blows and strike back with clean, efficient counterattacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally's= Paladins are crusaders for all things good and right. Wearing heavy armor, these valiant defenders of <STRONG><EM><U>truth fight for nobility, honor, and virtue</U></EM></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>when they say stand firm against any threat, that sounds like Main Raid tank to me.  </DIV>

[Ashtaro]

<P>Imho, just because fighter=tank does not mean every fighter should be able to main-tank any mob, any time, anywhere.    Some fighters are more defensive tanks and some are more offensive, and that's the way it should be.  If this were not the case then there would be no point in diversified fighter subclasses.  Just pick the one with the highest dps, and end of story.  The offensive type's DPS and tankability are not sufficient enough to cut it on the hardest raid mobs in the game (or shouldn't be, imo), but in most encounters (including 3-group raid mobs) they get the job done.   It doesn't matter if all fighers are "just good enough" to tank everything - as long as the end result is the same (a victory) - then guardians will become extremely marginalized due to inferior dps than practically all other fighter classes. </P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ArcisFortis wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just dont see how if I have the lowest DPS and no utility spells, that others should tank the same.  If they make it so that other class tank as well as guardians we well never get a group, cause we have nothing to bring to the group. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You have utility spells.  They enable you to "protect" and "guard" your group and other players (your target).  If you choose to not use them, that doesn't make them useless.  If they are broken, get them fixed.</P> <P>In content 1 to 50 the fighters are interchangeable.  That is as it stands right now.  I can tank a lvl 50 named mob, just like a guardian can.  I might need more healing, or something, but both of us can MT a lvl 50++ giant for example in LS.</P> <P>This is with my FD/invis/mend/safefall and while I do more DPS than you.</P> <P>Yet I don't see guardians all huddled in Antonica rioting because they can't get a group, do I?</P> <P>No, I see them grinding xp, questing, and dinging 50, just like the rest of us.<BR></P>

[ArcisFort]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ArcisFortis wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just dont see how if I have the lowest DPS and no utility spells, that others should tank the same.  If they make it so that other class tank as well as guardians we well never get a group, cause we have nothing to bring to the group. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You have utility spells.  They enable you to "protect" and "guard" your group and other players (your target).  If you choose to not use them, that doesn't make them useless.  If they are broken, get them fixed.</P> <P>In content 1 to 50 the fighters are interchangeable.  That is as it stands right now.  I can tank a lvl 50 named mob, just like a guardian can.  I might need more healing, or something, but both of us can MT a lvl 50++ giant for example in LS.</P> <P>This is with my FD/invis/mend/safefall and while I do more DPS than you.</P> <P>Yet I don't see guardians all huddled in Antonica rioting because they can't get a group, do I?</P> <P>No, I see them grinding xp, questing, and dinging 50, just like the rest of us.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> </P> <P>I beleive the point of this post is IF WE GET NERFED.<BR></P> <DIV>I never said you cant tank a lvl 50 mob. I am saying I should do it better.  If guardian stop being the best tanks we well never get groups, what would be the piont.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> ArcisFortis wrote: <P>I never said you cant tank a lvl 50 mob. I am saying I should do it better.  If guardian stop being the best tanks we well never get groups, what would be the piont.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Better is relative.  There is no reason why you should be better at every aspect of tanking. </P> <P><BR> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>i dont quit if someone gets nerfed, </P> <P>i quit if soe takes the easy way out and scews the system to make thier lives easier and solidifies their role as a mediocre MMO by making all the classes the same with just a different name.</P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Well said Sage.</P> <P>The games needs a diversity and a difference between roles, reguardless of if Monks think that Avoidance tanking is different to Mitigation tanking, the result is still the same, there is no difference, and if that ever happens, then why roll a Plate class when you can do the job just the same with a Monk who can supply more group utility, yes they have better group utility then what most of these Monks think they do, i believe the master one of there offensive group buff can increase a groups DPS by 15% at Master I, and Masters arent that hard to get a hold of now days. My lvl 30 monk can increase a groups Damage Per Second, not Offensive Skills, but acual DPS by 9%, thats a level 30 monk that has yet to get the upgrade to the Art and ethier Adept III or Master I.</P> <P>The fact that your invis doesnt work against lvl 50 mobs shows that the art is broken and not working as intended. Feign Death still works at lvl 50 np, i watch Monks FD agro off in raids to give agro back to a Guardian.</P> <P>If Avoidance ever becomes like Mitigation, it will seriously hurt the Fighter class, there will be no difference or diversity except for flavour, no class will have a Niche, except for Monks who will have the Neo from the matrix Effect. Even then, everything but Monks / Bruisers would be obeslete in tanking, cause why chose a Guard, Beserker, Pally, SK when you can just do it with a Monk / Bruiser and get 200 - 300 DPS with it?</P> <P>People have to understand, in a well balanced group, or any group, people <STRONG><U>do not</U></STRONG> invite another Plate class for DPS or for group utility, Scouts = Group Utility / DPS ( Assassins / Rangers beign suited towards DPS more so then Bards who are more Group Utility&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, Mages = DPS / Group utility ( Soercers being strong DPS where Enchanters being Strong group utility ), Fighters = Tanks / DPS ( Monks / Brusiers being more DPS orientated then Plate class's&nbsp<img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />, Priests = Group utility / Healing ( Templars, Wardens, Inquisitors being stronger healers then Mystics, Defillers, Furys who are more Group utility with also better DPS in the form of dots nukes ).</P> <P>So you see, people need to understand the Archtype system in its entireity before just rambling, it also helps when people read a entire thread before stating a opion on the matter at hand.</P> <P>But for now, we know Plate class's avoid too much, this will be fixed, we know that, but they also need to FIX COMBAT ARTS, ABILITIES and SPELLS first, because what happens down the track when they fix what they think is the problem only to have to re fix everything again due to not fixing what helped cause the problem to begin with. Why SOE is steering away from fixing our Combat Arts, Abilities and Spells is beyond me, after these are fixed, then we can see how the Class's really work, or get a more closer diagnostic of where the problem is, then instead of stabbing in the dar, fixing, nerfing, fixing, nerfing, fixing, nerfing, adjusting, fixing, nerfing, fixing etc etc, they can get it right the first time instead of driving there Customers away by changing so many things so many times, and then they dont even inform of us stealth changes or nerfs.</P> <P>You would think, that after SoE having one the most succesful MMORPG that they would know by now after 7 years, that there is a easier way to please customers then by constantly stabbing in the dark looking for a happy medium, when they miss they keep on going till they hit the right spot, which by then its too late anyways cause they just drove 2 - 3% of there customers away. Thats a stab in the dark figure, but im sure it would be pretty close.</P> <P>Dont get me wrong, i dont mind nerfing, when there is logic to it, and when its not constant, all SOE do these days is just constant nerf, then they sorry for any confusion, its in the best intrest of the life of the game. Yeah we know its in the best intrest of the game, so how about getting it right for once and stop driving customers to the curb.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ArcisFortis wrote:<BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>this is off the SoE main site under class</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardian= Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and aid in the defense of their allies. They will stand firm against <EM><U><STRONG>any threat </STRONG></U></EM>and lead their party to victory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks= Monks are disciplined combatants who <EM><U><STRONG>specialize in the martial arts</STRONG></U></EM>. Their natural agility allows them to avoid their enemy's blows and strike back with clean, efficient counterattacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally's= Paladins are crusaders for all things good and right. Wearing heavy armor, these valiant defenders of <STRONG><EM><U>truth fight for nobility, honor, and virtue</U></EM></STRONG></DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG><EM><U></U></EM></STRONG> </DIV> <DIV>when they say stand firm against any threat, that sounds like Main Raid tank to me.  </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Lets play the underline the stuff you want to show others game, ok my turn.</P> <P> </P> <DIV>Guardian= Guardians don heavy armor to protect themselves in combat and <STRONG><U>aid in the defense of their allies</U></STRONG>. They will stand firm against <EM>any threat </EM>and lead their party to victory.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks= Monks are disciplined combatants who <EM>specialize in the martial arts</EM>. <U><STRONG>Their natural agility allows them to avoid their enemy's blows and strike back</STRONG></U> with clean, efficient counterattacks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally's= <U><STRONG>Paladins are crusaders for all things good and right</STRONG></U>. Wearing heavy armor, these valiant defenders of <EM>truth fight for nobility, honor, and virtue</EM><BR></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are meant to buff the main tank so they take less damage (aid in the defense of their allies).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks are supposed to avoid being hit.  (even better if a Guardian was buffing them, see above)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally's run around with picket signs because Lucan is polluting the ocean.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like this game, lets play again.</DIV>

[Sorem]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote: <p>In content 1 to 50 the fighters are interchangeable.  That is as it stands right now.  I can tank a lvl 50 named mob, just like a guardian can.  I might need more healing, or something, but both of us can MT a lvl 50++ giant for example in LS.</p> <p>This is with my FD/invis/mend/safefall and while I do more DPS than you.</p><div></div><hr></blockquote> And he thinks Guardians should get nerfed?  While we're "rebalancing" the classes, why don't we just give Monks 2X the dps of any other melee, the best tanking skills, and while we're at it let's throw in C-Heal and a nice ole' 75% slow.  EQ2 needs cheal and good slowing, oh wait, let's give monks the ability to fly too.</span><div></div>

[SageMarrow]

hey, i will take the dps and the flying, dont need the rest of that crap.. im trying to achieve my NEOish thing without having to change games.... thanks for the help!!!

[ArcisFort]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Chogar wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Guardians are meant to buff the main tank so they take less damage (aid in the defense of their allies).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks are supposed to avoid being hit.  (even better if a Guardian was buffing them, see above)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Pally's run around with picket signs because Lucan is polluting the ocean.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like this game, lets play again.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>you dont get how are abiltys work.  We take the damage from others so if we used them on the MT we would be the MT....</BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>

[SageMarrow]

<P>guardian skills = intervene line</P> <P>that explains it pretty well</P>

[Gaige]

Um, hello they are target buffs, so if you use them on the MT that obviously means you aren't the MT :smileyindifferent:

[Nemi]

Gage you're wasting your breath, most Guardians can't see beyond EQ1. They think somehow they have the right to make 5 subclasses obsolete. <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR>Um, hello they are target buffs, so if you use them on the MT that obviously means you aren't the MT :smileyindifferent: <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gage i want you to think before you speak, is it hard to do?</P> <P><STRONG><U>Intervene Adept I</U></STRONG> :</P> <UL> <LI>50% chance to intercept damage on target.</LI> <UL> <LI>On a succesful intercept caster takes 75% of attack damage, target takes 60% of attack damage.</LI> <LI>Spell ends after 20 succesful Intercepts.</LI></UL></UL> <P>Ok, now as you can see Gage, if you have a One healer group which most people do, id probally say that its 50 / 50 between groups who use 2 healers and groups that use 1, but lets stick to one healer groups for the moment. Now where is the logic in two people taking damage in a single healer group? Do you like to create down time for the group by making the Healer run out of power every 2 fights due to the tank intervening damage, causing the MT plus himself to take damage? Now lets look at a 2 healer group scenario, there isnt going to be two Tank class's in a 2 healer group intervening each other cause they will have one Tank ( Fighter ), 2 Healers and the last 3 spots will be for high DPS to make up for the lose of one spot due to having two healers, and no Guardians dont get asked to groups for DPS or group utility Gage, and Berserkers dont get asked to groups with Enchanters, cause our single target DPS sucks, and we need groups to make a decent number, when groups play strategic with enchanters, they want their mobs to stay mezzed, not wake up every second due to a Berserker going ape on a group of mobs. </P> <P>2 People taking damage isnt power effecient, 2 people taking damage in 1 healer groups is dangerous. Again, just use some common sense Gage, Plate tanks do not get invited to groups for DPS or group utility.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Blah Blah Blah. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>*sigh*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Intervene does have it uses.  Especially in raids where there are multiple healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But apparantly you think intervene is 100% worthless.  So why do you have it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, that isn't the only target buff you have.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Blah Blah Blah. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>*sigh*</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Intervene does have it uses.  Especially in raids where there are multiple healers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But apparantly you think intervene is 100% worthless.  So why do you have it?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Besides, that isn't the only target buff you have.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Because its good to eat the Barrage damage a Priest takes during the course of fights which is unmitigated full damage, and some mobs can Barrage for more then 2k+ damage.</P> <P>Again whats the point of putting it on a MT when its going to only absorb 20 hits? A Priest doesnt take 20 Barrage hits a fight, thats why we have it Gage.</P> <P>And i hate to break it to you Gage, yes its the only Single target buff we get like that, Stand Firm line which every fighter gets, only adds to Avoidance, examine it, it only adds a percentage to avoidance which is currently broken at the present moment and not working at all. I mean the percent thats suppose to be added to Avoidance from Stand Firm line isnt adding to Avoidance, the buff line is a waste of time and space atm, for Berserkers it is anyway.</P> <P>Keep em coming Gage.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>03:08 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Because its good to eat the Barrage damage a Priest takes during the course of fights which is unmitigated full damage, and some mobs can Barrage for more then 2k+ damage.</P> <P>Again whats the point of putting it on a MT when its going to only absorb 20 hits? A Priest doesnt take 20 Barrage hits a fight, thats why we have it Gage.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Who else gets missed a lot in fights?  B-R-A-W-L-E-R-S.</FONT></P> <P>And i hate to break it to you Gage, yes its the only Single target buff we get like that, Stand Firm line which every fighter gets, only adds to Avoidance, examine it, it only adds a percentage to avoidance which is currently broken at the present moment and not working at all. I mean the percent thats suppose to be added to Avoidance from Stand Firm line isnt adding to Avoidance, the buff line is a waste of time and space atm, for Berserkers it is anyway.<FONT color=#ffff00>  Heh, guess what.  Monks only get one also, that adds avoidance.  But we are supposed to be happy in a raid scenario.  Oh its our uber DPS (that zerkers can beat on multi mob encounters).  Also, I was referring to guardians target buffs, because they get a few <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></P> <P>Keep em coming Gage.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Probably, work is slow.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[-Aonein-]

<P>You any good at maths Gage? Here, lets look at it this way, seeing you think Berserker have this god awful ability to pump out as much DPS as you can to Group mobs. At our lvls mobs have in excess of 20k HP, group encounters, not single <STRONG>^^</STRONG> encounters. Now its takes Berserkers to do there AoE spells around 4 seconds per cast which then we are motionless, we are dead in the water doing nothing, no DPS, now in the 4 seconds it takes us to cast these spells, you have just done the same amount of Damage to a SINGLE target, our AoE damage does basically nothing to a group encounter at these levels besides help us maintain agro, thats it. We can do 200 DPS a fight though, its once a fight <STRONG><U>per hour</U></STRONG> IF, and this is a HUGE <STRONG><U>IF</U></STRONG>, Rampage doesnt fail to chain itself of each mob, where at the moment, it poofs after hitting the first mob you execute it on 50% of the time, if it poofs, sorry come back again in one hour and try again, its basically a fluff spell, nothing more. And no Gage, even using my AoE abilities i still cant get over 140 DPS and i averge around 100 - 110 DPS on a constant basis, and thats pushing it, fully buffed and Berserk. You on the other hand have no problem putting out 200+ DPS + Tank.</P> <P>Why would i put Intervene on Brawlers when since they nerfed Agility the Intervene on a Monk / Bruiser method went out the window cause you get hit more often now, when i could just stick it on a Priest so i can save him / her instead?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:57 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>You on the other hand have no problem putting out 200+ DPS + Tank.  <FONT color=#ffff00>HAHAHAHAHAHA!  Yeah right.  200 DPS while tanking?  HAHAHAHAHAHAHA [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</FONT></P> <P>Why would i put Intervene on Brawlers when since they nerfed Agility the Intervene on a Monk / Bruiser method went out the window cause you get hit more often now, when i could just stick it on a Priest so i can save him / her instead?  <FONT color=#ffff00>Because its intended.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Sorry let me be a little more clearer for the proverbally minded.</P> <P>200+ DPS <STRONG><U>OR</U></STRONG> Tank.</P> <P>Its intended for me to be invited to a group to watch a Bralwer get his rear handed to him while i try Intervene the damage caused to him, while our Priest trys to keep the both of us alive? Good Logic Gage, do use the same logic in real life?</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:18 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> I love Gage. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I know.</P> <P>Intervene allows a player with more HP to take damage for a player who has lower HP.</P> <P>Yes.</P> <P>So if at the end of a fight and the MT is about to go down, you can then intervene and take a hit or two while the healer heals him or the mob dies.</P> <P>Or you can use it in any of the scenarios you mentioned.</P> <P>/shrug</P> <P>Oh and monks can't constantly do 200 DPS.  Maybe bruisers can?  Dunno.  I know zerkers can though, every once in awhile.<BR></P>

[-Aonein-]

<P>I just had a thought, if i was to use your logic Gage, and invited or be invited to a group for someone to Intervene me or me Intervene them, then wouldnt i use another plate class tank, seeing we are both Mitigation style tanks, then wouldnt we soften the blows more then what a Brawler could IF i was going to do that, which makes no sense like your reply to who else doesnt get hit much, B-R-A-W-L-E-R-S, cause if you dont get hit, Intervene doesnt work, and when a Brawler gets hit, he takes 45% more damage then a Plate class, so that means he would have to intervene more damage resulting in the priest having trouble keeping the both of you alive, a bad roll against a monks Avoidance skill, down goes the Brawler, and the Priest os half way through casting a heal, and the Plate off tank is half life cause he just tryed to intervene 4k damage.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45h Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:34 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Gage wrote :</P> <DIV> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> I love Gage. <HR> </DIV> <P> </P> <P>But Gage, i love me too.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:30 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>Ha Ha.  Yes because I get one shotted so often.</P> <P>Fine, then intervene on a guardian/pally/sk, why do I care?</P> <P>I've used sacrifice on all kinds of fighters, doesn't matter to me.</P> <P>Where did you get the 45% mitigation number from?</P> <P>Oh, and most Guardians I've been browsing only have 500~ HPs more than me unbuffed.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote: <P>Fine, then intervene on a guardian/pally/sk, why do I care?</P> <P><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Because i love you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[Ibis]

1) intervene is worthless 2) can I have your stuff? <div></div>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ibishi wrote:<BR>1) intervene is worthless<BR>2) can I have your stuff?<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Hey, it's at least as useful as FD or invis. After all, according to Gage you would think it was our primary role except for the fact that Gage also thinks FD and invis are practically usless as well.

[Obl]

Gage, I see you ranting constantly about monk this, guardian that. And honestly half of the posts you make seem based on little to no fact and simply what appears to be your personal desire to not only tank as well against raid mobs as any guardian, but retain all of the benefits you currently have due to the fact that you can't tank like a guardian. In other words, what I see you doing, pretty much non-stop, is running around the guardian forum in an attempt to win some battle for king of the hill. Sony never said everyone should tank just as well as everyone else. Never. They said all fighters should be capable of tanking. And, as of right now, they are all quite capable of tanking, as you yourself prove with your "I can tank a 50++" comments. It's funny seeing a level 47 monk tank Gyrok for a 5 man kill (he's level 50 x2 ^^ with adds), and then spin right around and say he can't tank and guardians should be nerfed. Bad players and jealous pricks play that game. All a guardian is in this game to do is tank. When we "protect" someone, we're tanking FOR them. Almost all of our skills for protection intercept damage, at a much worse mitigation rate than if we'd just been tanking the mob. Intercept spells, like Intervene, can be used to rescue a tank in trouble, or to save a party-member who steals aggro accidentally. Otherwise they don't have much use. The exceptions are Allay and Never Surrender. And neither are worthwhile enough to suggest that a guardian be a buff bot. Simply put, everything a guardian is designed to do is about holding aggro and tanking. We have no means of invis, fd, heals, anything. We are built to take hits. On a raid I might crank out 100 or so DPS. Any monk worth his salt is going to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] near double that every single raid. And if the *** hits the fan, that monk can FD, stand up when it's safe and rez in a priest... thus saving the raid. Guardian's can't. I can lay there and hope for a rez, or revive and run back... if I CAN run back. Point is that roles are filling out just fine in EQ 2 for fighters. You are half tank, half dps. So either give up your dps to gain some more tank power, or give up your tank side and go full on dps. But don't come here expecting the best of both worlds and then expect us to agree with you. The Defense skill and how it applies to classes should be addressed. There may be a few small, very minor tweaks needed to a few tank classes. But by no means is anything nearly as out of balance as some of your posts, or your attitude, try to suggest. Now, I won't quit if things change. So I don't agree with the OP there. But I am quite tired of seeing your baseless rants. You don't like your role, play a plate tank and be done with it. Tanking is all we are really worth having around for, stop trying to gank that from our class. You have much more to your class than tanking, and thus have very little room to complain. <div></div>

[Genarhof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oblix wrote:<BR>Gage, I see you ranting constantly about monk this, guardian that. And honestly half of the posts you make seem based on little to no fact and simply what appears to be your personal desire to not only tank as well against raid mobs as any guardian, but retain all of the benefits you currently have due to the fact that you can't tank like a guardian.<BR><BR>In other words, what I see you doing, pretty much non-stop, is running around the guardian forum in an attempt to win some battle for king of the hill.<BR><BR>Sony never said everyone should tank just as well as everyone else. Never. They said all fighters should be capable of tanking. And, as of right now, they are all quite capable of tanking, as you yourself prove with your "I can tank a 50++" comments. It's funny seeing a level 47 monk tank Gyrok for a 5 man kill (he's level 50 x2 ^^ with adds), and then spin right around and say he can't tank and guardians should be nerfed. Bad players and jealous pricks play that game.<BR><BR>All a guardian is in this game to do is tank. When we "protect" someone, we're tanking FOR them. Almost all of our skills for protection intercept damage, at a much worse mitigation rate than if we'd just been tanking the mob. Intercept spells, like Intervene, can be used to rescue a tank in trouble, or to save a party-member who steals aggro accidentally. Otherwise they don't have much use.<BR><BR>The exceptions are Allay and Never Surrender. And neither are worthwhile enough to suggest that a guardian be a buff bot.<BR><BR><STRONG>Simply put, everything a guardian is designed to do is about holding aggro and tanking. We have no means of invis, fd, heals, anything. We are built to take hits. On a raid I might crank out 100 or so DPS. Any monk worth his salt is going to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] near double that every single raid. And if the *** hits the fan, that monk can FD, stand up when it's safe and rez in a priest... thus saving the raid. Guardian's can't. I can lay there and hope for a rez, or revive and run back... if I CAN run back.</STRONG><BR><BR>Point is that roles are filling out just fine in EQ 2 for fighters. You are half tank, half dps. So either give up your dps to gain some more tank power, or give up your tank side and go full on dps. But don't come here expecting the best of both worlds and then expect us to agree with you.<BR><BR>The Defense skill and how it applies to classes should be addressed. <STRONG>There may be a few small, very minor tweaks needed to a few tank classes. But by no means is anything nearly as out of balance as some of your posts, or your attitude, try to suggest.</STRONG><BR><BR>Now, I won't quit if things change. So I don't agree with the OP there. But I am quite tired of seeing your baseless rants. You don't like your role, play a plate tank and be done with it. Tanking is all we are really worth having around for, stop trying to gank that from our class. You have much more to your class than tanking, and thus have very little room to complain.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Good luck finding a monk to FD a raid, FD greys out somewhere in the 20's, and is absolutely [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e anyway, it fails much more than it works, just about every monk knows that its safer to run than it is to use FD, and PD is not much better, I have both at Adept level, FD Adept 3 is grey, not even on hot bar anymore, and PD is on there, but never used, as against any mob higher level than I am, it fails, and if the higher level versions are as effective, then they dont work much either.</P> <P>Also, as far as monk DPS goes, sure, we can crank out some nice dps, but so can any of the other fighter sub classes, if they are in an off tank role.</P> <P>As MT,  a monks DPS is a lot less than you make it out to be, just like other fighter sub classes.<BR></P> <DIV>Hmm, not really out of balance is it, that a Mitigation tank can be buffed to such an extent that they <STRONG>Avoid </STRONG>more damage than an actual avoidance tank.</DIV> <DIV>But I guess that if the buffs that do this are changed/fixed, then you would call that a nerf to guardians.</DIV>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Genarhofen wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Also, as far as monk DPS goes, sure, we can crank out some nice dps, but so can any of the other fighter sub classes, if they are in an off tank role.</P> <P>As MT,  a monks DPS is a lot less than you make it out to be, just like other fighter sub classes.<BR></P> <DIV>Hmm, not really out of balance is it, that a Mitigation tank can be buffed to such an extent that they <STRONG>Avoid </STRONG>more damage than an actual avoidance tank.</DIV> <DIV>But I guess that if the buffs that do this are changed/fixed, then you would call that a nerf to guardians.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just love how some monks select their class because of the tanking ability and superior DPS. Then turn around a try to convince everyone that the DPS is no big deal in an effort to get better tanking ability.</P> <P>My guess is, it is a cognitive dissonance disorder needing medication or possibly shock treatments.</P>

[-Aonein-]

<P></P> <HR> Genarhofen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Good luck finding a monk to FD a raid, FD greys out somewhere in the 20's, and is absolutely [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e anyway, it fails much more than it works, just about every monk knows that its safer to run than it is to use FD, and PD is not much better, I have both at Adept level, FD Adept 3 is grey, not even on hot bar anymore, and PD is on there, but never used, as against any mob higher level than I am, it fails, and if the higher level versions are as effective, then they dont work much either.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I see Monks / Brusiers on Raids FD'ing agro back to a guardian all the time, and no FD doesnt grey out in the 20's, i have a level 30 monk and FD is still blue con. FD also upgrades, its a line of arts, not a one off art.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Also, as far as monk DPS goes, sure, we can crank out some nice dps, but so can any of the other fighter sub classes, if they are in an off tank role.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Umm, no, no other fighter class can do 200+ DPS in a offtank role. The most a Berserker can do, on a constant averge basis is 140 DPS, and thats pushing it, even then most of our damage arts have taunts tie'd into them, making it even harder for a Guardian to hold agro of us and even harder to do a decent amount of DPS. Guardians are lucky to 120 DPS in a DPS point of view, again, let me express that Plate class's <STRONG><U>DO NOT</U></STRONG> get asked to join a group for DPS or group utility, where a monk can fill the role of Group Utility / DPS OR Tank.</FONT></P> <P>As MT,  a monks DPS is a lot less than you make it out to be, just like other fighter sub classes.<BR></P> <DIV>Hmm, not really out of balance is it, that a Mitigation tank can be buffed to such an extent that they <STRONG>Avoid </STRONG>more damage than an actual avoidance tank.</DIV> <DIV>But I guess that if the buffs that do this are changed/fixed, then you would call that a nerf to guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Its called Buff stacking, its got nothing to do with a Guardian, and no we arent taking advantage or relying on Avoidance, we simply play the game but we do Avoid too much for the simple reason SoE wont <FONT size=4><STRONG><U>FIX COMBAT ARTS, ABILITIES AND SPELLS.</U></STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>Plain and simple.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR></P>

[CherobylJ]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> I know zerkers can though, every once in awhile.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Aon, ignore this he is baiting you by bringing up BERS dps, he knows this is potentially sore issue and he is using it as bait to shift the argument.</P> <P>Gage, sorry man while a couple of weeks ago you were making lucid-crisp points you have now taken on the aspect of a zealot.  Basically you troll any thread on the Guard board and look to make as much noise as possible and counter any argument, not based on its merits, but based on the outcome you are seeing  as a necessary goal.  You sppear to have little objectivity at this point and while I can understand why this is so in my opinion you add NO value to your cause by continuing this approach on the Guard board day after day.</P> <P>While I thought the OP was personally wasting time with this thread,  (no offense intended my opinion only) as change of some sort will always happen and real people of character roll with it, you have elevated this into yet ANOTHER Gage vs the board thread.  </P> <P><BR> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CherobylJoe wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> I know zerkers can though, every once in awhile.<BR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Aon, ignore this he is baiting you by bringing up BERS dps, he knows this is potentially sore issue and he is using it as bait to shift the argument.</P> <P>Gage, sorry man while a couple of weeks ago you were making lucid-crisp points you have now taken on the aspect of a zealot.  Basically you troll any thread on the Guard board and look to make as much noise as possible and counter any argument, not based on its merits, but based on the outcome you are seeing  as a necessary goal.  You sppear to have little objectivity at this point and while I can understand why this is so in my opinion you add NO value to your cause by continuing this approach on the Guard board day after day.</P> <P>While I thought the OP was personally wasting time with this thread,  (no offense intended my opinion only) as change of some sort will always happen and real people of character roll with it, you have elevated this into yet ANOTHER Gage vs the board thread.  </P> <P><BR> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>I know, but at least i can back my posts up with facts, and not poverbial bull [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot].</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[CherobylJ]

But you can NEVER win an argument with a Zealot man.

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> CherobylJoe wrote:<BR>But you can NEVER win an argument with a Zealot man. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Yes true, but its also good for people to see facts instead of a proverbial mess when one doesnt fully understand the archetypes in thier entireitys, and besides, he has contradicted himself anyway, a few months ago, he stated Monks cant do very good DPS and its not much more then a Guardian, now, he states that Monks can do 200+ DPS, and Guards can do around 100 DPS, gee thats real close, its 100% more. Who is going to invite a Guard to a group for utility thats not even needed in a one group scenario unless there tanking OR 100 DPS when you can invite a Scout for 250 DPS + Group utility that far surpass's any Fighter class OR a Mage for 300 DPS?</P> <P>Common Sense prevails in the end. </P> <P>People <STRONG><U>dont</U></STRONG> invite plate class's to groups for DPS or group utility, simple as that. You that Cheroby, Guards know that, Berserkers know that, hell, everyone but Monks ( most monks not all ) know that. What i cant seem to understand is, Monks are the most insecure class on the game, there isnt a class in the game thats wants as much as what the monks do, funny thing is, Gage clearly points out that he can do 200+ DPS, and he tanked all the way to lvl 50, and can tank lvl 54 <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> group x2 and x3 mobs, that seems pretty balanced to me.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Oblix wrote:<BR>Gage, I see you ranting constantly about monk this, guardian that. And honestly half of the posts you make seem based on little to no fact and simply what appears to be your personal desire to not only tank as well against raid mobs as any guardian, but retain all of the benefits you currently have due to the fact that you can't tank like a guardian.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Must've missed all those posts where I said I'd personally give up offense for defense, etc etc.  I want to be able to take on and win the same stuff guardians can, including x4s, yes.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>As for "based on little to no fact" /shrug.  I commented on a thread in the monk forums about the new AC, noting I was particulary interested in how much avoidance the plate tanks had, and how the differences in mitigation would look.  What do you know, I was right about plate tanks avoiding too much, and now the way defense works is being looked at by the developers, with some changes possibly coming our way.  Heh.</FONT><BR><BR>In other words, what I see you doing, pretty much non-stop, is running around the guardian forum in an attempt to win some battle for king of the hill.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Nah, actually most posts in this forum I reply to, so someone else (usually a guardian) has already made them.  A lot of these recent posts stem from Moorgards post in OUR forum.</FONT><BR><BR>Sony never said everyone should tank just as well as everyone else. Never. They said all fighters should be capable of tanking. And, as of right now, they are all quite capable of tanking, as you yourself prove with your "I can tank a 50++" comments. It's funny seeing a level 47 monk tank Gyrok for a 5 man kill (he's level 50 x2 ^^ with adds), and then spin right around and say he can't tank and guardians should be nerfed. Bad players and jealous pricks play that game.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yes they did.  Gratz on Gyrok, but there are plenty of x4 that we can't.  Besides we all know that x2s are usually easy.  I've tanked a couple with one group.</FONT><BR><BR>All a guardian is in this game to do is tank. When we "protect" someone, we're tanking FOR them. Almost all of our skills for protection intercept damage, at a much worse mitigation rate than if we'd just been tanking the mob. Intercept spells, like Intervene, can be used to rescue a tank in trouble, or to save a party-member who steals aggro accidentally. Otherwise they don't have much use.  <FONT color=#ffff00>You can use the tired [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] "no utility, can only tank, nothing to offer" excuse all you want, its dumb.  I don't care.  Its obvious that you guys say that because you want to be the only raid main tank.  Hell anyone would say that.  The fact is you have utility and can do DPS.  If some of your utility is broken, /bug and /feedback it and get it fixed, or make a post asking for new utility.  Its not that hard.  I'm sorry that to all of you every combat art that doesn't help you tank better "doesn't have much use" that is opinion.  Of course when monks say that, we are lying and want to be supermen.</FONT><BR><BR>The exceptions are Allay and Never Surrender. And neither are worthwhile enough to suggest that a guardian be a buff bot.  <FONT color=#ffff00>/shrug neither are mine, Shrug Off now.  But that doesn't mean guardians don't expect "buff botting" from other classes.  Besides, I'm not even suggesting that, I'm suggesting you use your defensive skills to make another tank better as you off tank.  Plenty of us do it.</FONT><BR><BR>Simply put, everything a guardian is designed to do is about holding aggro and tanking. We have no means of invis, fd, heals, anything. We are built to take hits. On a raid I might crank out 100 or so DPS. Any monk worth his salt is going to [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] near double that every single raid. And if the *** hits the fan, that monk can FD, stand up when it's safe and rez in a priest... thus saving the raid. Guardian's can't. I can lay there and hope for a rez, or revive and run back... if I CAN run back.  <FONT color=#ffff00>*sigh*  I've heard this 100,000 times.  I don't believe it.  If you are cranking out 100DPS on a raid mob, thank you, you just proved my point.  Oh please, please count for me the number of times FD has saved your raid.  Also, we do not do 200dps every raid.  But yes, I understand that FD/safefall/mend/invis are the 3 greatest spells and 1 greatest skill in the game.  Without them no group will ever succeed, making monks the most uber class ever /sarcasm.  They are pretty much solo spells, woooo.</FONT><BR><BR>Point is that roles are filling out just fine in EQ 2 for fighters. You are half tank, half dps. So either give up your dps to gain some more tank power, or give up your tank side and go full on dps. But don't come here expecting the best of both worlds and then expect us to agree with you.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Say what you mean please.  Half<EM>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] </EM>tank half<EM>[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]</EM> dps.  You are trying to convince me that by design we are meant to suck at tanking and suck at doing dps?  Yeah right.  Why even make the class?  Our utility certainly isn't uber enough to make up for the fact that we supposedly should "by design" be the 5th best tank and "by design" be the 14th best melee dps in the game.  R-E-A-D my posts, I'm not trying to be a superman, its getting old anyway, one of you guys need to come up with a new insult.</FONT><BR><BR>The Defense skill and how it applies to classes should be addressed. There may be a few small, very minor tweaks needed to a few tank classes. But by no means is anything nearly as out of balance as some of your posts, or your attitude, try to suggest.<FONT color=#ffff00>  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Um, sorry but a guardian/zerker/sk/pally hardly ever getting hit against raid mobs because they rely on avoidance, and then taking small damage because of their superior mitigation is neither small or minor.  I'm sure it'd be "very small" and "minor" if you logged in tomorrow and our mitigation was equal to heavy armor wearers while we had better evasion, right?</FONT><BR><BR>Now, I won't quit if things change. So I don't agree with the OP there. But I am quite tired of seeing your baseless rants. You don't like your role, play a plate tank and be done with it. Tanking is all we are really worth having around for, stop trying to gank that from our class. You have much more to your class than tanking, and thus have very little room to complain.  <FONT color=#ffff00>I'm tired of you guys trying to skew everything I say to make me out as a bad guy.  I'm not EVER GOING TO PLAY A PLATE TANK, SO SHUT UP.  If I had wanted to be a guardian, I would've chosen warrior at 10.  There you go with the "woe is me, my class sux except for tanking, if other fighters can tank we'll never make it past level 20".  Um, we don't have "much more".  We have DPS that is lower than bruiser by design, can be matched by SKs and beaten by zerkers.  We have an entire archetype with better melee DPS and utility than us.  There are currently other fighters in some scenarios hand over fist better than us at tanking.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Invisible = worthless at 41.  I don't care if they give it to every class and take it from us.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>FD = such a good raid utility...oh wait.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Mend/compress/heal = % based targetable heal, with a 5min recast timer.  Pally's have better heals (of course) and the bruiser's is self only but 90 recast.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Safefall = is great for...falling?  I mean because I always jump off cliffs and catch the rest of my group.  Oh wait, no I don't.  If they can't jump down then my [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] is going down they way do.</FONT><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Gage clearly points out that he can do 200+ DPS, and he tanked all the way to lvl 50, and can tank lvl 54 <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> group x2 and x3 mobs, that seems pretty balanced to me.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I said I have, on occassion parsed over 200.  In that SAME POST I said a rampaging zerker BEAT ME OUT for encounter DPS done.  I also never said anywhere that I tanked a lvl 54+++ x2 or x3, kthx.</P> <P>I'm much more likely to parse in the 140 to 160 range, with guardians doing 100 to 120, and bruisers doing 160 to 200.   That's the norm from the logs I have and have seen.</P> <P>Zerkers are skewed because of their (worthless to you) rampage skill.</P>

[Obl]

Yes, Gage, being the best tanks and having the worst DPS makes us the perfect target for your "omg things aren't balanced" bs. You keep saying we have utility... uh, no we don't. We have some protect spells wooo... hey, all fighters have at least one. So how's that make us special? All of our "utilities" come from our group buffs / self buffs, WHICH MAKE US BETTER TANKS. It's obvious to me, and probably most of the Guardian community that post here, that you have very limited knowledge of our class. There is absolutely no reason to have a Guardian on a raid if he's not tanking, add tanking, or back-up tanking. And add tanking, back-up tanking can be handled by any other fighter class. He's a waste of space. The only thing we do better than anyone else is tank. That's it. And no, I'm not whining. I love my class. I love having my one role and doing it well. I am quite fine with relying on everyone else on the raid to provide utility, buffs, heals, resists, dps, you name it. I do my small part, press a few taunts, and hope the healers keep me alive. (well, aside from guild leader and raid leader duties). And that's all I need, and all I ask for. You don't see me in the monk forums screaming "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I should do 200 dps just like you when I'm not tanking!!). I have 4 guardians in my guild. 2 of them miss every raid even if they're online, because I don't need 4 on a raid. Half the time, it's just me on the raid as I make room for DPS. Guardians don't say we are tanks just to spite you, your class, or anything else you might claim. We say it because it's fact. It's not a perception. It's how the [Removed for Content] class works. I feel sorry for you that you can't just accept that and walk on. I agree with you that I shouldn't avoid as much. It's rather silly for me to have only 200 to 300 more mitigation than a cleric standing next to me, when he's in not even full ebon and I have better than full ebon. It's rediculous for me to hit 100% avoidance on some raids. And I'm not doing it with the help of Shrug Off. Wardens have a group avoidance buff that gives about 25%. My opinion, they need to change defense to apply 80% mitigation, 20% avoidance to warriors, 50% 50% to cruisaders, 20% mitigation and 80% avoidance to brawlers. Will sony do that? I don't know. But that's what needs to be done. Do that, up guardian mitigation by 1k across the board at 50, scaled down per level, and then go from there. But even still, half the time I'm tanking x4 mobs... I'm doing it with ~75% avoidance. I only have a Warden half the time, and never have Shrug Off on me, and rarely have another fighter even in my group when I'm tanking. So it's not the fact that a guardian can hit 100% that's unbalanced (and a lot of that is block and parry, mind you), it's the fact that avoidance is too powerful. So before you even continue your "I want to tank x4 mobs" crap, keep in mind that Sony has to fix the way mobs hit players before they can do anything else to tanking. Right now if they fixed avoidance, we'd ALL be getting flat out pasted. Moorgard has even posted as much. But no matter what, Guardians are supposed to be the best tanks by design. While you may one day tank that x4, I'll always tank it better. Because tanking is all that I am designed to do. Yes, if I whip out my dual wield weapons, can land Retaliate a few times (not on +++, won't land) and get lucky, I can clear 100 dps regularly. But you can replace two such guardians with 2/3 of an Assassin any day. Play a guardian to 50, then come back and tell me that it's not true. Tanking is all that we do. And we're happy that way. <div></div>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oblix wrote:<BR>But no matter what, Guardians are supposed to be the best tanks by design. While you may one day tank that x4, I'll always tank it better. Because tanking is all that I am designed to do. Yes, if I whip out my dual wield weapons, can land Retaliate a few times (not on +++, won't land) and get lucky, I can clear 100 dps regularly. But you can replace two such guardians with 2/3 of an Assassin any day. Play a guardian to 50, then come back and tell me that it's not true. Tanking is all that we do. And we're happy that way.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't believe that you are supposed to be "the best" by design.  I believe you should have an edge, but that all fighters should be able to tank anything you can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and guess what, assassins out dps us too, so you can tank and they can dps, looks like no monks needed for your group <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking should be all that any fighter does, that's by design.<BR></DIV>

[Owa]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Oblix wrote:<BR>Yes, Gage, being the best tanks and having the worst DPS makes us the perfect target for your "omg things aren't balanced" bs. You keep saying we have utility... uh, no we don't. We have some protect spells wooo... hey, all fighters have at least one. So how's that make us special? All of our "utilities" come from our group buffs / self buffs, WHICH MAKE US BETTER TANKS. It's obvious to me, and probably most of the Guardian community that post here, that you have very limited knowledge of our class. There is absolutely no reason to have a Guardian on a raid if he's not tanking, add tanking, or back-up tanking. And add tanking, back-up tanking can be handled by any other fighter class. He's a waste of space. The only thing we do better than anyone else is tank. That's it.<BR><BR>And no, I'm not whining. I love my class. I love having my one role and doing it well. I am quite fine with relying on everyone else on the raid to provide utility, buffs, heals, resists, dps, you name it. I do my small part, press a few taunts, and hope the healers keep me alive. (well, aside from guild leader and raid leader duties). And that's all I need, and all I ask for. You don't see me in the monk forums screaming "[expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] I should do 200 dps just like you when I'm not tanking!!).<BR><BR>I have 4 guardians in my guild. 2 of them miss every raid even if they're online, because I don't need 4 on a raid. Half the time, it's just me on the raid as I make room for DPS. Guardians don't say we are tanks just to spite you, your class, or anything else you might claim. We say it because it's fact. It's not a perception. It's how the [Removed for Content] class works. I feel sorry for you that you can't just accept that and walk on.<BR><BR>I agree with you that I shouldn't avoid as much. It's rather silly for me to have only 200 to 300 more mitigation than a cleric standing next to me, when he's in not even full ebon and I have better than full ebon. It's rediculous for me to hit 100% avoidance on some raids. And I'm not doing it with the help of Shrug Off. Wardens have a group avoidance buff that gives about 25%.<BR><BR>My opinion, they need to change defense to apply 80% mitigation, 20% avoidance to warriors, 50% 50% to cruisaders, 20% mitigation and 80% avoidance to brawlers. Will sony do that? I don't know. But that's what needs to be done. Do that, up guardian mitigation by 1k across the board at 50, scaled down per level, and then go from there. But even still, half the time I'm tanking x4 mobs... I'm doing it with ~75% avoidance. I only have a Warden half the time, and never have Shrug Off on me, and rarely have another fighter even in my group when I'm tanking. So it's not the fact that a guardian can hit 100% that's unbalanced (and a lot of that is block and parry, mind you), it's the fact that avoidance is too powerful.<BR><BR>So before you even continue your "I want to tank x4 mobs" crap, keep in mind that Sony has to fix the way mobs hit players before they can do anything else to tanking. Right now if they fixed avoidance, we'd ALL be getting flat out pasted. Moorgard has even posted as much.<BR><BR>But no matter what, Guardians are supposed to be the best tanks by design. While you may one day tank that x4, I'll always tank it better. Because tanking is all that I am designed to do. Yes, if I whip out my dual wield weapons, can land Retaliate a few times (not on +++, won't land) and get lucky, I can clear 100 dps regularly. But you can replace two such guardians with 2/3 of an Assassin any day. Play a guardian to 50, then come back and tell me that it's not true. Tanking is all that we do. And we're happy that way.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Some good points. Now let's stop this internicine rivalry. Unless any of it makes me laugh.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I said I have, on occassion parsed over 200.  In that SAME POST I said a rampaging zerker BEAT ME OUT for encounter DPS done.  I also never said anywhere that I tanked a lvl 54+++ x2 or x3, kthx.</P> <P>Zerkers are skewed because of their (worthless to you) rampage skill.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes Gage, Berserker get to out DPS everyone, <STRONG><U>ONCE A HOUR</U></STRONG>, for a <STRONG><U>5 second</U></STRONG> period, even then, its got a 50% chance to fail, what i think your confusing Rampage with Gage, is Berserk. Two totally different skills. And yes, ask any Berserker, Rampage is useless, its nothing more then a <STRONG><U>ONCE PER HOUR</U></STRONG> for <STRONG><U>5 seconds</U></STRONG> wow skill with a 50% chance to fail.</P> <P>You havent said anything about tanking lvl 54 <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> x2 and x3 mobs, but plenty of other Monks / Brusiers have supplied Screenies of it. So its not impossible for Monks / Bruisers to tank 98% of the game and do around 200+ DPS.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:33 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>I don't believe that you are supposed to be "the best" by design.  I believe you should have an edge, but that all fighters should be able to tank anything you can.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh and guess what, assassins out dps us too, so you can tank and they can dps, looks like no monks needed for your group <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tanking should be all that any fighter does, that's by design.<BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Gage, remember the poll Sage took on Monk forum, asking what would people rather Tank or DPS. Well the results were 70 / 30 in favour of DPS for the simple reason, if a monk cant get a group tanking, they at least have a chance to fill a role DPS, Scouts dont get invited to groups for anything other then DPS + Utility, same with Mages DPS + Utility, Plate tanks get invited to tank, nothing else, not DPS, not Utility, a Brawler has the best of both worlds, he can get invited to a group for DPS OR Tank. Again Gage you already pointed out that you yourself can do 200+ DPS plus you have said yourself you tanked all the way to lvl 50 and plenty of Monks and Brusiers have supplied screen shots of tanking lvl 54 <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> x2 and x3 mobs and i think, im not sure cause i cant find it, but there was a screen shot of a Brusier tanking a lvl 54 <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> x4 mob on Bruiser forum.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So Gage, seeing you havent even tried to tank these group x4 ^^^ mobs cause :</DIV> <OL> <LI>Your guild is a level 30 guild.</LI> <LI>The guild you join on high level raids doesnt have time for you to prove that monks can Tank 100% of the game PLUS add 200 DPS to a group in a DPS point of view.</LI></OL> <P>Now lets look at Gangsterfist, reason he got wiped of the face of the planet trying to tank the group x4 <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> mob was because he didnt postion the mob right, got thrown back out of healing range, and got pummeled, <STRONG><U>HAD</U></STRONG> he got the right postion, he may well have tanked it all the way to zero HP, but he jumps on the forums and quickly states that monks cant tank raid encounter, when it was his fault he died to start with, even the guilds Healer came in and supplied information about how Gangster was thrown out of range from the healers.</P> <P>So it seems, there is 2 sides to every Monk story.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>09:51 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <DIV>I don't believe that you are supposed to be "the best" by design.  I believe you should have an edge, but that all fighters should be able to tank anything you can.</DIV> <DIV>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>heavy armor=AC, defensive buffs=tankability, taunts=aggro control, Health points=ability to take damage...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Which A guardian has the best of All in, sounds like "the best by design to me"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but then again this is coming from the person that thinks that those combat arts he has 7 of on his hotbar was all a big mistake... so hey i dont know...</DIV></DIV>

[stainremov]

assassins do NOT outdps bruisers/monks. that's a myth.  in a grp+++x4 all scout types (except for maybe dirge/troubs) go oop and have to rely purely on melee dmg, which fighters have a huge edge on. and fighter skills suck hardcore. intervene line is completely worthless. the poster who said that you're supposed to put it on a healer to prevent barrage damage is right. that's the only use for it. it's no use putting it on the mt. the 50% chance is a lot. it doesn't catch a hit every now and then. it catches hits very often. and yes, guardians are supposed to be "the best" by design. if they aren't, why don't all guardians pick zerkers? the opportunity to outdps monks? and still tank the same? go hit yourself. that's just stupid. we sacrifice a LOT of dps. the difference between a zerker and a guardian in terms of dps is enormous. and so the difference in tanking skills should be enormous as well. if monks and zerkers start tanking grp+++x4 encounters, i'd quit too. we ARE supposed to be the best tanks. hands down. why else would we have such [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ty dps. <div></div>

[Corv]

<span><blockquote><hr>Gage-Mikel wrote: <div>I don't believe that you are supposed to be "the best" by design.  I believe you should have an edge, but that all fighters should be able to tank anything you can.</div> <hr></blockquote>So guardians should have an "edge", but they shouldn't actually be able to tank anything any better than monks or any other warrior class can?  Hmm... "Edge".  </span>You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.  <div></div>

[Neph]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ArcisFortis wrote:<BR> <DIV>This is bullcrap.  If they make it so we all tank the same, I well quit eq2.  I have been a fanboi for over 2 years.  When 90% of my guild quit and went to play WoW I stayed. I have invested a huge amout of time in EQ2, and I pay for 2 accounts.  If monks and pally's  and any other female dogs want to tank the same as a guardian, take away all their dps and heals they get over guardians (but then we would all be the same).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am a guardian. I am the Main tank take that away and I quit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>P.S.  If you feel the same. Let SoE Know since it seems the squeaky wheel gets the grease around here.</DIV> <P>Message Edited by ArcisFortis on <SPAN class=date_text>03-24-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:35 PM</SPAN></P> <P>Message Edited by ArcisFortis on <SPAN class=date_text>03-24-2005</SPAN><SPAN class=time_text>02:38 PM</SPAN><BR></P> <P></P> <HR> <P>Can I have your stuff? :smileywink:</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ashgaarl]

<P>I've played EQ since release 99. When I read about the different classes in EQ2, Guardian seemed the closest fit ti the old "Main Tank" in EQ. I chose Guardian because I got the impression that he would be the one to tank raid mobs etc.</P> <P>I also play a Paladin btw, I like his spells and "utilities".</P> <P>Fighter = Tank ? Maybe, but not Main Tank. Warrior = Main Tank.</P> <P>Why is everyone so obsessed with having all Fighter classes tanking as good as the Guardian when thats all the Guardian really is good for? Be real people. Guardian can tank (and Protect others) - thats it. If a Monk and Paladin and Shadow Knight should be able to tank aswell as me, I then want Safefall, Healing Spells and Harm Touch thank you very much... See what I mean?</P> <P> </P> <P>I just think it's rediculous to see all that envy towards the Guardians ONLY edge...</P> <P> </P> <P>If you're all real about this, then let's strike all subclasses and go back to 1 warrior - period. Jeez...</P>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> stainremover wrote:<BR>if monks and zerkers start tanking grp+++x4 encounters, i'd quit too. we ARE supposed to be the best tanks. hands down. why else would we have such [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]ty dps.<BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>You better quit.  Jez is a bruiser who has tanked two x4 and I've heard of a paladin tanking Darathar.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So to think that only guardians deserve to be MT is ludicrous.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As for all of you convinced that the guardian class has no utility, I suggest you start submitting feedback to get it changed.  The design of the game is to give all fighters the ability to MT or offtank, depending on the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This makes it easier to start a group and also fill a group, and also to get replacements.  This is how the archetype system works.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just as a monk should be able to MT anything a guardian can, a guardian should be able to offtank and provide sufficient utility and DPS, although the utility will obviously be of a defensive flavor tying in with the class.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you do not have these things or feel that your DPS isn't as substantial as it should be, request a change.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I assure you the other fighters aren't going to sit on their laurels, contending to be subpar to the guardian, and be the guardians "buff bot".  Most of us in the other fighter trees didn't sign up to do DPS (we'd have been scouts) or buff you (and I know some of you feel the same).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So the time is now, you know that defense and avoidance are being looked into, as well as the difference between fighter/scout DPS to ensure the archetypes are functioning the way they should be.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:25 AM</span>

[Ashgaarl]

<DIV>Gage, that whole concept you seem so in love with makes me sick to my stomach. All fighter classes should be what? 90 % alike? 95 % alike?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're killing the game, the divercity and the fun of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ, I played a Beastlord. No - I wasn't "a real tank" but I could tank EPs and nameds and I were proud of it, I wasn't considered "real DPS", but I was happy about my DPS. I wasn't a "real slower", but again - I was happy to be able to slow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I am getting at here is divercity. Chars in EQ2 are already too much alike - just different icon's to pound (almost). All this crap about making everybody "equal" and "balanced" really kills the game. Why not just make 6 main classes then with a specific part to play each? Really, come of it friend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A good point was mentioned, Guardians are DESIGNED to Tank. All abilities are meant to aid tanking purposes. As far as I see it, were the only class thats aimed THAT directly at tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would really hate it if we get to look even more alike. Alot of classes who wasn't meant to wear OUR armor and wield OUR weaponry already is. Make em as good mitigators as us? Well, bye bye Guardian - then what's the point. Then the other classes are more fun to play because of Utility...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp.</DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashgaarl wrote:<BR> <DIV>Gage, that whole concept you seem so in love with makes me sick to my stomach. All fighter classes should be what? 90 % alike? 95 % alike?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>You're killing the game, the divercity and the fun of it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>In EQ, I played a Beastlord. No - I wasn't "a real tank" but I could tank EPs and nameds and I were proud of it, I wasn't considered "real DPS", but I was happy about my DPS. I wasn't a "real slower", but again - I was happy to be able to slow.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What I am getting at here is divercity. Chars in EQ2 are already too much alike - just different icon's to pound (almost). All this crap about making everybody "equal" and "balanced" really kills the game. Why not just make 6 main classes then with a specific part to play each? Really, come of it friend.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>A good point was mentioned, Guardians are DESIGNED to Tank. All abilities are meant to aid tanking purposes. As far as I see it, were the only class thats aimed THAT directly at tanking.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I would really hate it if we get to look even more alike. Alot of classes who wasn't meant to wear OUR armor and wield OUR weaponry already is. Make em as good mitigators as us? Well, bye bye Guardian - then what's the point. Then the other classes are more fun to play because of Utility...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Just my 2cp.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>1) This isn't EQ1</P> <P>2) Beastlord?  The overpowered n00b class that SoE put in trying to get people that weren't pleased by anything else to stay?  The class that made 3 or 4 other real classes obsolete?  Heh.</P> <P>3) I'm sorry you don't like the archetype system, I didn't design it.</P> <P>The diversity that you refer to is in flavor/style and how the job gets done, not the job that gets done.<BR></P>

[Ashgaarl]

<P>You're talking rubbish friend. I also played highlevel Paladin, Warrior and Wizard - so chill on the "n00b l33t speak". Beastlord was a refreshing breeze for old EQ1 players.</P> <P>True, this isn't EQ1, but you're so ignorant you aren't even reading (or not understanding) what I am trying to say.</P> <P>Did you read the "suggestion" about returning to just 1 fighter class? Just seems to me that you really want everyone to be "VERY much alike"...</P> <P>Enough of this. Won't go anywhere.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Ashgaarl wrote:<BR> <P>You're talking rubbish friend. I also played highlevel Paladin, Warrior and Wizard - so chill on the "n00b l33t speak". Beastlord was a refreshing breeze for old EQ1 players.</P> <P>True, this isn't EQ1, but you're so ignorant you aren't even reading (or not understanding) what I am trying to say.</P> <P>Did you read the "suggestion" about returning to just 1 fighter class? Just seems to me that you really want everyone to be "VERY much alike"...</P> <P>Enough of this. Won't go anywhere.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, I've read the "1 fighter class" thing multiple times.  Its a stupid arguement.</P> <P>Get this: scouts will outdamage all fighters in the end, all fighters are tanks, if one is better (guardian) then there is no reason to be the other five, and thus you have "1 fighter class".</P> <P>Weird, eh?<BR></P>

[Cod]

<P>Hypothesising why gage chose monk. </P> <P> </P> <P>Hmm tank with other cool abilities ill take that one. </P> <P>Later . . . , other classes have better defense than me thats unfair.</P> <P>Nerf them or upgrade monk i didn't want that "fluff stuff" anyway.</P> <P> </P> <P>This might not be gage's real reason for choosing monk, but I'm sure he can enlighten me in this thread.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Codil wrote:<BR> <P>Hypothesising why gage chose monk. </P> <P> </P> <P>Hmm tank with other cool abilities ill take that one. </P> <P>Later . . . , other classes have better defense than me thats unfair.</P> <P>Nerf them or upgrade monk i didn't want that "fluff stuff" anyway.</P> <P> </P> <P>This might not be gage's real reason for choosing monk, but I'm sure he can enlighten me in this thread.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*shrug*  Its my first fantasy MMO and I had played a TKA in SWG, so it just interested me during beta.  The more I played it, the more I liked it.  I'm not coming from EQ1 so I don't have the stigma that surrounded the warrior and monk class in that game.</P> <P>I'm starting fresh with EQ2, so the archetype system is very real to me, and I expect it to be implemented as advertised.<BR></P>

[Owa]

Gage liked playing a Monk just fine and got his 50 levels before the agility 'fix'. Now that's gone and the raid content favours Guardians and Berserkers he doesn't like it quite so much. Once you understand that, all his posts make more sense.

[Niter1d]

<DIV>If you put this in comparison, its like giving a warden heals and buffs that are on par with a templar. Who would need a templar if a hybrid class can do just as well on top of other things? </DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Niter1dah wrote:<BR> <DIV>If you put this in comparison, its like giving a warden heals and buffs that are on par with a templar. Who would need a templar if a hybrid class can do just as well on top of other things? </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*sigh*</P> <P>That's right because wardens have reacti... oh wait they have regens.</P> <P>All healers should be on par also, go figure :smileyindifferent:<BR></P>

[Niter1d]

<DIV>I really dont know what to say about monks tho. I have 2 good friends who play high level monks and they have very different opinions of being a main tank <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Genarhof]

<BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I just love how some monks select their class because of the tanking ability and superior DPS. Then turn around a try to convince everyone that the DPS is no big deal in an effort to get better tanking ability.</P> <P>My guess is, it is a cognitive dissonance disorder needing medication or possibly shock treatments.</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR><BR>For a start, I did not select a monk for the tanking and superior dps, I selected a monk as it seemed like the closest class to the TKA I had in SWG, but as far as trying to convince people that our class has [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e dps, I do believe guardian have that art mastered, and then some.</P> <P>Listening to guardians talk/post [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e on these forums, they would have everyone else believe they hit MOBs with pillows, that do no damage at all, tanking or off tanking, just like they would have everyone else believe they have no utility at all, all in a vain attempt to make everyone else think all they can do is tank, therefore they should be way above every other fighter sub class in the game when it comes to taking damage/tanking.</P></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Genarhof]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P></P> <HR> Genarhofen wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Good luck finding a monk to FD a raid, FD greys out somewhere in the 20's, and is absolutely [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot]e anyway, it fails much more than it works, just about every monk knows that its safer to run than it is to use FD, and PD is not much better, I have both at Adept level, FD Adept 3 is grey, not even on hot bar anymore, and PD is on there, but never used, as against any mob higher level than I am, it fails, and if the higher level versions are as effective, then they dont work much either.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I see Monks / Brusiers on Raids FD'ing agro back to a guardian all the time, and no FD doesnt grey out in the 20's, i have a level 30 monk and FD is still blue con. FD also upgrades, its a line of arts, not a one off art.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Actually, yes, FD does grey out in the 20's, if you want to talk about a line of arts, then do so, dont repeatedly mention one art, then change it to a line of arts when proved wrong.</FONT><BR></P> <P>Also, as far as monk DPS goes, sure, we can crank out some nice dps, but so can any of the other fighter sub classes, if they are in an off tank role.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Umm, no, no other fighter class can do 200+ DPS in a offtank role. The most a Berserker can do, on a constant averge basis is 140 DPS, and thats pushing it, even then most of our damage arts have taunts tie'd into them, making it even harder for a Guardian to hold agro of us and even harder to do a decent amount of DPS. Guardians are lucky to 120 DPS in a DPS point of view, again, let me express that Plate class's <STRONG><U>DO NOT</U></STRONG> get asked to join a group for DPS or group utility, where a monk can fill the role of Group Utility / DPS OR Tank.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I am so glad you think monks can do 200+ dps while off tanking, I sure cant, and im sure a lot of other monks cannot either. Also, I doubt the gap in dps while tanking/off tanking is as big as some like to make out, as others have stated many times. A good friend of mine is a Guardian, Zurgul on the splitpaw server, we used to group all the time, I have seen just how much dps a guardian can put out while tanking, both with a shield equipped, and while dual wielding, and it is not as bad as guardians like to make out on these forums.</FONT></P> <P>As MT,  a monks DPS is a lot less than you make it out to be, just like other fighter sub classes.<BR></P> <DIV>Hmm, not really out of balance is it, that a Mitigation tank can be buffed to such an extent that they <STRONG>Avoid </STRONG>more damage than an actual avoidance tank.</DIV> <DIV>But I guess that if the buffs that do this are changed/fixed, then you would call that a nerf to guardians.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Its called Buff stacking, its got nothing to do with a Guardian, and no we arent taking advantage or relying on Avoidance, we simply play the game but we do Avoid too much for the simple reason SoE wont <FONT size=4><STRONG><U>FIX COMBAT ARTS, ABILITIES AND SPELLS.</U></STRONG></FONT></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00 size=3>Plain and simple.</FONT></DIV> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Ah, so you say its due to SOE not fixing the buffs, but if/when they do, will you say well done SOE, or will you cry nerf?<BR></FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR></P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>please stop splitting hairs, soon nothing will be left but scalp...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>warriors have taunts built in to thier attacks, in offtank they cannot unload as to get an accurate parse number on dps because they will pull aggro, just as a wizard, or scout, or any other class with high dps would if they unload EVERYTHING at thier disposal, meaning buffs, debuffs (which increase dps), haste procs, everything.  And if the math is done that way, yes the differences will show on a parse..but the design of the game doesnt permit dps types or any class for that matter to unload all they have to their maximum capability and get an accurate parse.  So in relation to guardians dps and monks dps, the gap IS large, because we can unload much more than they can as far as high damage combat arts with no fear of pulling aggro at all.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>(so stop saying that its a dead argument)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly, if you guys expected to tank like guardians, the agility thing was the way to do it, now thats over and gone, and probably never to return... When that happened that put a gap between the classes the size of the grand canyon.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>which is why they started patching it up with bandaids... there is a noticeable difference between my tanking ability and a guardians, not because i lose aggro, not because i have bad gear, not because i suck at tanking, simply because my reliability relies on an intangible meduim called avoidance. Where as what the guardian provides, is consistency. simply put.  Now if anyone has an idea about how to make avoidance consistent and predictable and still call it avoidance...let me know.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But trust me when i say there is no solution, which is why you got the mitigation increase in the first place, so what if guards get nerfed and nothing happens to us... that just means raids will be a fight for survival even more so and it still wont put us in the running of being MT even if we could.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Honestly, there is no way to fix avoidance to accomodate a level 54^^^groupx4 epic named mob... It can be done, and no one doubts that at all, the real issue is in what consistency and level of reliability, Jezekial has pictures tanking one of these mobs, and i suppose he did a good job and did it well..SO IT CAN BE DONE, but the fact still remains, that unless you have a guild that is willing to take the risk, you still wont be first or even second choice to tank the raid.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So honestly, its been proven that a brawler type is capable of doing so, just in what consistency and fail safe value is the only question, which will <FONT color=#cc0000 size=4>ALWAYS</FONT> be the question when avoidance is concerned...</DIV>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> ArcisFortis wrote:<BR> <DIV>I just dont see how if I have the lowest DPS and no utility spells, that others should tank the same.  If they make it so that other class tank as well as guardians we well never get a group, cause we have nothing to bring to the group. <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You have utility spells.  They enable you to "protect" and "guard" your group and other players (your target).  If you choose to not use them, that doesn't make them useless.  If they are broken, get them fixed.</P> <P>In content 1 to 50 the fighters are interchangeable.  That is as it stands right now.  I can tank a lvl 50 named mob, just like a guardian can.  I might need more healing, or something, but both of us can MT a lvl 50++ giant for example in LS.</P> <P>This is with my FD/invis/mend/safefall and while I do more DPS than you.</P> <P>Yet I don't see guardians all huddled in Antonica rioting because they can't get a group, do I?</P> <P>No, I see them grinding xp, questing, and dinging 50, just like the rest of us.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Gage every time you speak it comes out shouting to us all "hey I am teh noob and don't understand how group mechanics work"</P> <P>Most guardian skills cause us to get hit, yep you betcha. Allay, Stand firm, Never Surrender, Intervene, etc...</P> <P>Every healer knows that two tanks taking damage in a group is BAD. It's just not done. So if i put those protections on say another tank i am forcing the healer to heal two of us, cause those protections will not prevent you from taking any damage at all, they just spread it out. I could buff you with say Iron WIll/Iron Conviction, Battle Tactics, Do or die, Call of Protection, Call of Battle but those buffs are applied to the whole group including myself. So where is this utility we have? Other than getting hit we dont have any. All i'm gonna do if i am not tanking is sub par dps, period. My buffs are no substitute for a good dps in the group or any other mage/scout/priest. The only time two tanks work with a guardian in the group is if the guardian is tanking and the other is assisting. Not the other way around.</P> <P>The devs never ever said every fighter would be raid tank material, in fact what they said is all fighters could tank and some would be better than others in certain situations. I am quite sure with the right raid setup a monk could tank raid mobs just as we do, no you wont be able to do it with the same raid setup guardians use. Guardian are only better than other fighters in long fights aka raid mobs. Only then are we really any better than you. That is what we guardians get instead of feign death, invis, high dps, safe fall etc.... You have your fun too, our fun is being the guy in front of the biggest and baddest, which is maybe two or three times a week. At any other time we are competing with all other fighters for groups as the tank. There is one time only people want a guardian over anybody else and that is lvl 54 group x4 raid mobs. That is such a small part of the game. </P> <P>You preseume to speak for every monk/bruiser in the game. None in my guild agree with you, most i've spoken to dont agree with you. Personally i think you are a bit whack and really should have made a guardian. It's apparent to me that all that is monk is not what you wanted. Do me a favor roll a guardian up, walk in our shoes for a day  without all your nice little abilities monks have and then come tell me how good you think we have it and how poorly you think monks have it.</P> <P>Not one single time in any thread ive seen you post in have you posted any facts or data to back up your wild claims. ALl you do is repeat heresay and spread unfounded accusations and wild rumors.</P> <P>You keep saying guardians have the same avoidance you do, i have 62 % avoidance, most monks i see have 75% to 85% at my level. I rarely see myself dodge in a fight, my avoidance is my shield. Also if they did make it so mobs always hit guardians we'd never be able to get a taunt offf or a combat art because we'd always be interrupted. We have to have a certain amount of avoidance. Maybe being able to be buffed to 100% avoidance is overpowered, that i might agree to. perhaps they need to cap that. However keep in mind that 100% avoidance only applies to mobs your level not mobs higher than your level. Trust that lvl 54 group x4 mobs are not being greyed out by that skill cause it simply isn't happening. </P> <P>Do us all a favor and actually learn how game mechanics work and what the number really mean ok?</P>

[yodamite]

I would almost have to say Gage must almost be a program manager in RL. Just likes to here him self talk and must have the last word at everything.

[Ashtaro]

<P>If we are to buy into the Uniclass Theory of Everything, then all scouts should do the same DPS, right?  Well, they don't.  In fact, some are given DPS enhancers (poisons), which other scouts can't use, at all.  This was <EM>intentional</EM>.  All mages should do the same DPS too, right?  Well, they don't.  Even after the last mage DPS "tuning."  They say mage > scout > fighter > priest for DPS, but we all know there is overlap there, which will become even more pronounced when they do the scout DPS overhaul.</P> <DIV>You don't need sony to tell you that all fighters aren't going to tank the same.  It should be obvious that once they break into archetypes and furthermore subclasses that they are not, and never will be, the same. There are more factors to a fighter than just how well he tanks.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Ashtaroth on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>04:15 PM</span>

[Belce]

<P>I think the thing Gage has concerns for isn't that he as a monk can't tank X, its that no one else thinks he can, even with the screenshots. </P> <P>There is a whole lot of invested time in what certain classes can do and can't do in this game and one of those is that monks can't tank.  The reality is they can and it will take more than game changes to correct that.  Regardless of changes made in this game, people will still opt for what worked before, the defensive plate tank for their raid.  A monk will have to shoot lightning bolts out their but, lasers out their eyes, before people think monks can tank the big show right now.  Thats right now.  Tomorrow is a different story, more people like Gage can show that monks can and do well, other tank classes can and do well.  You could be just like enchanters in EQ, an unknown and unapperciated ugly duckling that becomes a swan. </P> <P>So Gage, take your guild out and do what you can do already and show us.  And remember, SoE said, "not all tanks tank equally in all situations." </P> <P> </P>

[Aethane]

<DIV> <P>1) This isn't EQ1</P> <P>2) Beastlord?  The overpowered n00b class that SoE put in trying to get people that weren't pleased by anything else to stay?  The class that made 3 or 4 other real classes obsolete?  Heh.</P> <P>3) I'm sorry you don't like the archetype system, I didn't design it.</P> <P>The diversity that you refer to is in flavor/style and how the job gets done, not the job that gets done.<BR><BR></P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Codil wrote:<BR> <P>Hypothesising why gage chose monk. </P> <P> </P> <P>Hmm tank with other cool abilities ill take that one. </P> <P>Later . . . , other classes have better defense than me thats unfair.</P> <P>Nerf them or upgrade monk i didn't want that "fluff stuff" anyway.</P> <P> </P> <P>This might not be gage's real reason for choosing monk, but I'm sure he can enlighten me in this thread.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>*shrug*  Its my first fantasy MMO and I had played a TKA in SWG, so it just interested me during beta.  The more I played it, the more I liked it.  I'm not coming from EQ1 so I don't have the stigma that surrounded the warrior and monk class in that game.</P> <P>I'm starting fresh with EQ2, so the archetype system is very real to me, and I expect it to be implemented as advertised.<BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR></P>Had to do it. If you didn't come from eq1 and this is truly your first fantasy mmo how do you know anything about beastlords or anything else about EQ1 for that matter?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am personally leaning to what others are saying about you. You are most likely just a troll with no data or facts to backup anything you say. Furthermore you either lie alot or just beleive anything someone told you as fact. Making blanket statements and throwing out rumors and hearsay as fact isn't going to earn you alot of respect or points here nor will it help your cause.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw beastlords didn't make a single class in eq1 obsolete, all those other classes did anything a beastlord could do better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also how come you cant tank a lvl 54 group x4 mob eh? Bruisers have done it and they take more damage than you. Personally i think it's just ego here. You cannot stand the idea that another class can do something better than you can. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Folks this isn't even an issue. Gage would like you all to beleive his class is broken and cannot tank and that it's all guardian's fault. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line everything Gage says is nothing but propoganda and heresay.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most monks do not agree with Gage. Now that folks is a fact. 70% of them like things just the way they are.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank that content, so can bruisers. It's been done.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage wants Guardians nerfed but in reality what he is asking for will become a nerf across the board to ALL fighters including monks. What it will result in is a nerf to all buffs that boost avoidance. Gage sees guardians as some kind of threat to monks, meaning himself, other monks dont feel this way. He has no facts, no data, nothing to backup his wild claims. It's simply an ego trip that he cannot stand the fact that another class can do what he does better. Not that he can't do it just that someone else did it better, that burns him alive. That my friends is the sum of it.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Aethane on <span class=date_text>03-26-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:39 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Genarhofen wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P><BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Actually, yes, FD does grey out in the 20's, if you want to talk about a line of arts, then do so, dont repeatedly mention one art, then change it to a line of arts when proved wrong.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Um no, i just checked my level 30 monk, and his Feign Death is acually green cause i handed in some Bag quests, which took me to 30.6. You havent proved anyone wrong Gen. You proved that you dont even know your own class, just cause it says " Mastery (120) " Doesnt mean it greys out at lvl 24.<BR></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>I am so glad you think monks can do 200+ dps while off tanking, I sure cant, and im sure a lot of other monks cannot either. Also, I doubt the gap in dps while tanking/off tanking is as big as some like to make out, as others have stated many times. A good friend of mine is a Guardian, Zurgul on the splitpaw server, we used to group all the time, I have seen just how much dps a guardian can put out while tanking, both with a shield equipped, and while dual wielding, and it is not as bad as guardians like to make out on these forums.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Um, Gage himself says he can do 200 DPS when he wants to, but when i parse the lvl 50 monks i group with on a daily basis on Everfrost its around 180 - 200 DPS. You quite clearly dont read a entire thread, and if you cant do it, then you dont know how to play your monk, Monks gotta be able to Tank we called upon OR DPS when called upon, its the life of a monk, <STRONG><U>can</U></STRONG> tank and <STRONG><U>can</U></STRONG> DPS. Guardians do around 90 - 110 DPS, yes the difference is significant. So stop trying to kid yourself. Even Gage himself says that Guards can get upto 100 DPS like its some sort of Group defining skill, i know for a fact <STRONG><U>100%</U></STRONG> of groups i join and there is a Monk / Bruiser or Guardian LFG, they get the Monk / Bruiser.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ff3300>Ah, so you say its due to SOE not fixing the buffs, but if/when they do, will you say well done SOE, or will you cry nerf?</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>No i wont be calling Nerf cause im not a Guardian who can buff stack my Defense skill to over 30 points, now let me ask you this, do you yourself even know what the buffs that are stacking that are causing people to avoid so much? Let me put it to you simple, <STRONG><U>ANYONE</U></STRONG> in the game can get 100% avoidance, not just Guardians. </FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Boost Mitigation for Plate tanks and stop the buff stacking, everything will be balanced, so self buffed it will look like this :</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Guardian : 75% mitigation, 35% avoidance ( with a shield )</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Monk : 35% mitigation, 75% avoidance.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Simple huh? But wait, Monks get that now already, but its more like 40% mitigation and 75% avoidance, plus they can tank all the way to lvl 50, and tank raids, even <STRONG>group x4</STRONG> <STRONG>^^^</STRONG> high end raids, just like Jez the Bruiser did and to top it all off, in a DPS role they can do 180+ DPS. The problem with monks like you is, you havent even tryed to tank these raids, so how would you know? And im sure if you did get the chance and didnt stuff up like Gangsterfist did, then you would probally tank it just as well as Jez did.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Here is something else for people to think about, my lvl 30 monk is naked cause i dont play him anymore, nothing on him what so ever, his Agility is 50, my Avoidance is <STRONG><U>64.4%</U></STRONG>, thats a completely <STRONG><U>naked unbuffed</U></STRONG> monk at lvl 30. Can a lvl 30 Guardian fully buffed wearing full suit of armor + jewerly get even remotely close to 64.4% avoidance + do around 80 - 90 DPS at level 30? Or is this one of those stupid questions?</FONT><FONT color=#ff3300></FONT></P> <P></P> <HR> <P></P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:15 PM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Oh and Gen :</P> <P><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4810</FONT></A></P> <DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#c8c1b5></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463" target=_blank><FONT color=#c8c1b5>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=7&message.id=4463</FONT></A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Though you might like pictures instead of technical statistics and long posts, where people keep repeating themselves over and over and over again.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV></DIV>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethane wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>most monks i see have 75% to 85% at my level. <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE>Please let me know the name of the monk with 85% unbuffed avoidance, thanks.<BR>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Aethane wrote: <DIV>Had to do it. If you didn't come from eq1 and this is truly your first fantasy mmo how do you know anything about beastlords or anything else about EQ1 for that matter?  <FONT color=#ffff00>I read through a variety of posts (two on this forum in particular) from people requesting the beastlord class being added to EQ2.  A lot of the same opinions showed up throughout, and I used those in my comment.  Personal experience, no.  But an opinion.  I never said "I played a beastlord" or anything of the sort, I never said anything to imply I had first hand experience <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am personally leaning to what others are saying about you. You are most likely just a troll with no data or facts to backup anything you say. Furthermore you either lie alot or just beleive anything someone told you as fact. Making blanket statements and throwing out rumors and hearsay as fact isn't going to earn you alot of respect or points here nor will it help your cause.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Ha Ha.  Yup, I lie a lot.  I don't know anything about playing the monk class at all.  I do not have almost 46 days played on my monk.  You're right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw beastlords didn't make a single class in eq1 obsolete, all those other classes did anything a beastlord could do better.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Opinions vary.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also how come you cant tank a lvl 54 group x4 mob eh? Bruisers have done it and they take more damage than you. Personally i think it's just ego here. You cannot stand the idea that another class can do something better than you can.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, you're right.  It has nothing to do with archetype balance and everything to do with my ego.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Folks this isn't even an issue. Gage would like you all to beleive his class is broken and cannot tank and that it's all guardian's fault. <FONT color=#ffff00>Right again.  In fact Moorgard posted my exact sentiments about the avoidance numbers just because I think its an issue.  Obviously Moorgard is on my payroll.  All the statements he makes about brawlers being tanks is because I pay him to say it, not because that is how the game is designed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line everything Gage says is nothing but propoganda and heresay.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, you're right.  Nothing I say is ever backed up by SoE.  I'm totally wrong, its the people who think this is EQ1 who are right.  The patches and dev statements also back that up.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most monks do not agree with Gage. Now that folks is a fact. 70% of them like things just the way they are.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wow, you know 70% of the people who play the monk class, and you had the time to ask them individually if they agree with me?  That is a fact and not just some random BS number pulled out of your butt?  Geez.  How do you have time to play the game and talk to all those people!?!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank that content, so can bruisers. It's been done.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, and I never said it hasn't.  It isn't balanced enough, especially where avoidance is concerned.  Moorgard posted about it... oh wait, you think I'm on my own agenda, nevermind.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage wants Guardians nerfed but in reality what he is asking for will become a nerf across the board to ALL fighters including monks. What it will result in is a nerf to all buffs that boost avoidance. Gage sees guardians as some kind of threat to monks, meaning himself, other monks dont feel this way. He has no facts, no data, nothing to backup his wild claims. It's simply an ego trip that he cannot stand the fact that another class can do what he does better. Not that he can't do it just that someone else did it better, that burns him alive. That my friends is the sum of it.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, you got it.  I want all fighters nerfed.  I hope they ruin the archetype I play.  Again, you are either psychic or lying about "most monks".  Like they say, most statistics are made up <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yup, I have no facts, no logs, nothing to backup my "wild claims".  I mean it wasn't like after the announcement of the AC number I posted on a couple threads saying "I bet we aren't avoiding enough and plate tanks are avoiding too much" only to have Moorgard state the exact same thing after the patch went live.  Its not like I've played over 45 days on my monk, and even more before that in beta, parsing the vast majority of my fights along the way, and after that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You're right.  Its all about my ego.  How dare I think all fighters should tank on par to each other, its not like we are all figh... oh wait.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Thank you for your immense insight into my mind and my thoughts.  I feel like I owe you a fee or something.  Do you have a 1-900 psychic hotline I can call the next time I need to figure out what I want?</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV>

[Aethane]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <DIV><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> Aethane wrote: <DIV>Had to do it. If you didn't come from eq1 and this is truly your first fantasy mmo how do you know anything about beastlords or anything else about EQ1 for that matter?  <FONT color=#ffff00>I read through a variety of posts (two on this forum in particular) from people requesting the beastlord class being added to EQ2.  A lot of the same opinions showed up throughout, and I used those in my comment.  Personal experience, no.  But an opinion.  I never said "I played a beastlord" or anything of the sort, I never said anything to imply I had first hand experience <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Which makes your statement meaningless, its based on hearsay. As always you never base any statement you make on facts or proof.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am personally leaning to what others are saying about you. You are most likely just a troll with no data or facts to backup anything you say. Furthermore you either lie alot or just beleive anything someone told you as fact. Making blanket statements and throwing out rumors and hearsay as fact isn't going to earn you alot of respect or points here nor will it help your cause.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Ha Ha.  Yup, I lie a lot.  I don't know anything about playing the monk class at all.  I do not have almost 46 days played on my monk.  You're right <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>/YAWN i have over 54 days played as a guardian. Playtime doesnt mean you understand game mechanics which you obviously do not. The statements you are making are about Guardians pal, hardly a word about monks other than you whine alot that you cant tank big baddies when others have.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Btw beastlords didn't make a single class in eq1 obsolete, all those other classes did anything a beastlord could do better.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Opinions vary.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Well i played the game for over 5 years including beta. Beastlords were subpar at anything they did. I was a raid officer for one of the best guilds in the game and there was never a time we couldnt have moved forward without a beastlord, never once held up a raid to wait for one nor did anybody ever say "man i wish we had more beastlords."</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Also how come you cant tank a lvl 54 group x4 mob eh? Bruisers have done it and they take more damage than you. Personally i think it's just ego here. You cannot stand the idea that another class can do something better than you can.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, you're right.  It has nothing to do with archetype balance and everything to do with my ego. </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00><FONT color=#33cccc>Obviously, it is because you CAN tank that content, i fail to see what you are crying about other than the fact other classes can do it a little better than you can. WHo cares??? Seriously if you are able to do it then what is the problem? What do you think you are going to gain from this other than a nerf that will affect YOU just as much, in fact it will hit YOU harder than us</FONT>.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Folks this isn't even an issue. Gage would like you all to beleive his class is broken and cannot tank and that it's all guardian's fault. <FONT color=#ffff00>Right again.  In fact Moorgard posted my exact sentiments about the avoidance numbers just because I think its an issue.  Obviously Moorgard is on my payroll.  All the statements he makes about brawlers being tanks is because I pay him to say it, not because that is how the game is designed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Moorgard posted that buffs were allowing it and they were looking into that, he said nothing about our base avoidance being too high ( which it isn't).</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line everything Gage says is nothing but propoganda and heresay.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, you're right.  Nothing I say is ever backed up by SoE.  I'm totally wrong, its the people who think this is EQ1 who are right.  The patches and dev statements also back that up.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>It isn't, SOE has never once said anything that led me to beleive they agree with you. And btw if this were EQ1 you wouldnt be tanking anything as a monk. Your job would be feign death puller/dps, that is it!</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most monks do not agree with Gage. Now that folks is a fact. 70% of them like things just the way they are.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wow, you know 70% of the people who play the monk class, and you had the time to ask them individually if they agree with me?  That is a fact and not just some random BS number pulled out of your butt?  Geez.  How do you have time to play the game and talk to all those people!?!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>I don't have to SOE took a poll.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank that content, so can bruisers. It's been done.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, and I never said it hasn't.  It isn't balanced enough, especially where avoidance is concerned.  Moorgard posted about it... oh wait, you think I'm on my own agenda, nevermind.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>All you are doing is arguing semantics, this change is going to hurt YOU, we'll be fine, it is YOU that will feel it the most.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage wants Guardians nerfed but in reality what he is asking for will become a nerf across the board to ALL fighters including monks. What it will result in is a nerf to all buffs that boost avoidance. Gage sees guardians as some kind of threat to monks, meaning himself, other monks dont feel this way. He has no facts, no data, nothing to backup his wild claims. It's simply an ego trip that he cannot stand the fact that another class can do what he does better. Not that he can't do it just that someone else did it better, that burns him alive. That my friends is the sum of it.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, you got it.  I want all fighters nerfed.  I hope they ruin the archetype I play.  Again, you are either psychic or lying about "most monks".  Like they say, most statistics are made up <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yup, I have no facts, no logs, nothing to backup my "wild claims".  I mean it wasn't like after the announcement of the AC number I posted on a couple threads saying "I bet we aren't avoiding enough and plate tanks are avoiding too much" only to have Moorgard state the exact same thing after the patch went live.  Its not like I've played over 45 days on my monk, and even more before that in beta, parsing the vast majority of my fights along the way, and after that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You're right.  Its all about my ego.  How dare I think all fighters should tank on par to each other, its not like we are all figh... oh wait.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Thank you for your immense insight into my mind and my thoughts.  I feel like I owe you a fee or something.  Do you have a 1-900 psychic hotline I can call the next time I need to figure out what I want?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>You are on par, you are able to accomplish anything i can, plus get to do twice my dps. Yep you need more heals than i do, so? You should, you only do about twice my DPS. Again you are arguing semantics, your gameplay isn't even affected because you CAN tank the content. However you will be doing a much worse job of it soon due to the whines you have made. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Gaige]

<FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Aethane wrote:<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Folks this isn't even an issue. Gage would like you all to beleive his class is broken and cannot tank and that it's all guardian's fault. <FONT color=#ffff00>Right again.  In fact Moorgard posted my exact sentiments about the avoidance numbers just because I think its an issue.  Obviously Moorgard is on my payroll.  All the statements he makes about brawlers being tanks is because I pay him to say it, not because that is how the game is designed.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>Moorgard posted that buffs were allowing it and they were looking into that, he said nothing about our base avoidance being too high ( which it isn't).  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Learn to read.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bottom line everything Gage says is nothing but propoganda and heresay.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, you're right.  Nothing I say is ever backed up by SoE.  I'm totally wrong, its the people who think this is EQ1 who are right.  The patches and dev statements also back that up.  </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>It isn't, SOE has never once said anything that led me to beleive they agree with you. And btw if this were EQ1 you wouldnt be tanking anything as a monk. Your job would be feign death puller/dps, that is it!  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Oh so the built in shield, increased mitigation, the fact they are looking at how avoidance works and multiple statements saying monks are tanks don't exist?  Moorgard echoed exactly what I said about the defensive number change.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most monks do not agree with Gage. Now that folks is a fact. 70% of them like things just the way they are.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wow, you know 70% of the people who play the monk class, and you had the time to ask them individually if they agree with me?  That is a fact and not just some random BS number pulled out of your butt?  Geez.  How do you have time to play the game and talk to all those people!?!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>I don't have to SOE took a poll.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Link please.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Monks can tank that content, so can bruisers. It's been done.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, and I never said it hasn't.  It isn't balanced enough, especially where avoidance is concerned.  Moorgard posted about it... oh wait, you think I'm on my own agenda, nevermind.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>All you are doing is arguing semantics, this change is going to hurt YOU, we'll be fine, it is YOU that will feel it the most.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Wrong.  It will effect everyone, but it won't hurt us "the most".</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Gage wants Guardians nerfed but in reality what he is asking for will become a nerf across the board to ALL fighters including monks. What it will result in is a nerf to all buffs that boost avoidance. Gage sees guardians as some kind of threat to monks, meaning himself, other monks dont feel this way. He has no facts, no data, nothing to backup his wild claims. It's simply an ego trip that he cannot stand the fact that another class can do what he does better. Not that he can't do it just that someone else did it better, that burns him alive. That my friends is the sum of it.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Yup, you got it.  I want all fighters nerfed.  I hope they ruin the archetype I play.  Again, you are either psychic or lying about "most monks".  Like they say, most statistics are made up <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  Yup, I have no facts, no logs, nothing to backup my "wild claims".  I mean it wasn't like after the announcement of the AC number I posted on a couple threads saying "I bet we aren't avoiding enough and plate tanks are avoiding too much" only to have Moorgard state the exact same thing after the patch went live.  Its not like I've played over 45 days on my monk, and even more before that in beta, parsing the vast majority of my fights along the way, and after that.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>You're right.  Its all about my ego.  How dare I think all fighters should tank on par to each other, its not like we are all figh... oh wait.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00>Thank you for your immense insight into my mind and my thoughts.  I feel like I owe you a fee or something.  Do you have a 1-900 psychic hotline I can call the next time I need to figure out what I want?</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>You are on par, you are able to accomplish anything i can, plus get to do twice my dps. Yep you need more heals than i do, so? You should, you only do about twice my DPS. Again you are arguing semantics, your gameplay isn't even affected because you CAN tank the content. However you will be doing a much worse job of it soon due to the whines you have made. Be careful what you wish for, you might just get it.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>LoL, its always about the DPS.  Nice "inflated" numbers yourself.</FONT></DIV> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[Belce]

<P>I still think, that even if changes were made to the bruiser sub classes that people will still prefer a guardian over another class for the big show.  It is what they know and understand, big metal, big shield, it works.  Gage, you have already shown that monks can pull it off.  </P> <P>Your problem isn't that you can't, its that you can't do it as easy and get everyone on board to try it. Everyone you group with, in your guild, has a preconcieved idea of monks that is based on other games and that hinders you. You look at a situation and say, 'we need a guardian for this' maybe try it once and fail and say 'see, its true' </P>

[TheLivingPlu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belce wrote:<BR> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>I still think, that even if changes were made to the bruiser sub classes that people will still prefer a guardian over another class for the big show.</FONT>  It is what they know and understand, big metal, big shield, it works.  Gage, you have already shown that monks can pull it off.  </P> <P>Your problem isn't that you can't, its that you can't do it as easy and get everyone on board to try it. Everyone you group with, in your guild, has a preconcieved idea of monks that is based on other games and that hinders you. You look at a situation and say, 'we need a guardian for this' maybe try it once and fail and say 'see, its true' </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>This is so true Guardians will still have better mitigation and be better holding agro, who gives a toss about tank DPS or fluff skills like FD, what it comes down to is who can hold hate and stay alive the longest, changes to avoidance will not change the Guardians role as premier tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The biggest weakness of the monk class are the players who refuse to see themselves as anything but DPS, well hopefully this will change when the scouts get there much needed DPS boost.</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well its more complex than being just a "monks only want to dps" thing.</P> <P>with the current class balance, they gave brawlers an OPTION, which apparently was a mistake from all this bloody arguments.</P> <P>its actually split 3 ways on the mentality of a monk/bruiser.</P> <P>MT brawler</P> <P>DPS brawler</P> <P>Somewhere in between brawler. (aka me)</P> <P>and beyond that there are 3 things holding them back from being MT in every group the join.</P> <P>Social Stigma</P> <P>Risk based tanking of avoidance tanking</P> <P>DPS oriented brawlers that dont like tanking and didnt chose the class for that reason or anything near it.</P> <P> </P>

[Nemi]

There are two big reasons why Brawlers are not accepted as Main Tanks in pickup groups:1) People can't see beyond Eq12) The average monk player doesn't realise he is a Tank and give real Monk tanks a bad name by being crap at the job of MT.<p>Message Edited by Nemi on <span class=date_text>03-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:20 PM</span>

[Ibis]

<div></div><div></div>I don't see why Gage bothers any of you so much.  As much respect as I have for his opinions I don't believe he'll ever get anywhere close to his goal.  Monks are meant to be tanks.  Bruisers are meant to be tanks.  Monks and Bruisers will not take the role of a Guardian.  And what if they do?  They won't do it better than you.  If they did we'd be in here screaming for them to be nerfed.  In the way that encounters can be designed there will one day be a role for many tanks per raid target and thats where we'll see brawlers have a greater importance.  Simply by being capable of making wider choices about the role they'll play per encounter, they lose out on the ability to tank the best.  If they want to be in the position guardians are in, they'll have to become a guardian.  The same goes for crusaders. As far as "monks MTing an epic encounter", we have clerics that tank epic encounters.  The encounters themselves need to change quite a bit and eventually will. The nerf?  We need to be nerfed.  It is in no way right that I can completely dodge white con mobs day in and out.  And yes I can do this.  No, I don't think it would be right of brawlers could do this either. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>03-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:35 AM</span>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most monks do not agree with Gage. Now that folks is a fact. 70% of them like things just the way they are.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wow, you know 70% of the people who play the monk class, and you had the time to ask them individually if they agree with me?  That is a fact and not just some random BS number pulled out of your butt?  Geez.  How do you have time to play the game and talk to all those people!?!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>I don't have to SOE took a poll.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Link please.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We don't need another poll. I challeged Gage to post a question in the monk forum a while back and monks didn't agree with him then. He just likes to conveinently forget about it because it undermines his BS.</P> <P><BR> </P><p>Message Edited by sidgb on <span class=date_text>03-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:28 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sidgb wrote:<BR> <BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Most monks do not agree with Gage. Now that folks is a fact. 70% of them like things just the way they are.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Wow, you know 70% of the people who play the monk class, and you had the time to ask them individually if they agree with me?  That is a fact and not just some random BS number pulled out of your butt?  Geez.  How do you have time to play the game and talk to all those people!?!</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ffff00></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#33cccc>I don't have to SOE took a poll.  </FONT><FONT color=#ffff00>Link please.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE></BLOCKQUOTE> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>We don't need another poll. I challeged Gage to post a question in the monk forum a while back and monks didn't agree with him then. He just likes to conveinently forget about it because it undermines his BS.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Since when am I SoE?</P> <P>Do you see where he said "SoE took a poll"?  He didn't say I took a poll (on a dare) or that Sage took one.</P> <P>He says SoE took one, and I asked for a link to it.</P> <P>Enough monks agree with me to make my stance a valid one, and besides, I only back up what SoE says.  I don't go off on wild tangents all my own <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P>

[sidgb]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR><BR> <P>Since when am I SoE?</P> <P>Do you see where he said "SoE took a poll"?  He didn't say I took a poll (on a dare) or that Sage took one.</P> <P>He says SoE took one, and I asked for a link to it.</P> <P>Enough monks agree with me to make my stance a valid one, and besides, I only back up what SoE says.  I don't go off on wild tangents all my own <img src="/smilies/283a16da79f3aa23fe1025c96295f04f.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /><BR></P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>Yea, If I were you I would rely on a poll that was not taken rather then one that was taken too. Reality is even if every monk disagreed with you it would not change your mind.<BR>

[SomeDudeCRO]

Booooo Hooooo! Waaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Mommy!!!!!!!!! <div></div>

[SomeDudeCRO]

"with the current class balance, they gave brawlers an OPTION, which apparently was a mistake from all this bloody arguments." Get a parser, they gave all fighters that OPTION. <div></div>

[SomeDudeCRO]

<div></div>Aonein wrote "Gage i want you to think before you speak, is it hard to do?" Wow, this coming from someone whose posts are riddled with a large amount of what could only be qualified as total incompetence. <div></div><p>Message Edited by SomeDudeCRO on <span class=date_text>03-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>i cant say what i want too somedude, because faarwolf is on us about profanity and such, so i will keep it clean.</P> <P>Stop riding gages coat tails.  we all feel differently, accept that and move on - if you think someone is ignorant - from now on - keep it to yourself. if you want to tank like a guardian tell soe - dont waste the time argueing with us.</P> <P>SOE has taken thier heads out of this fire and moorgards post was a  catalyst at best that started more chaos than peace with his vague speel about the direction things were to go, </P> <P>so if you are also angry because someone says that they will quit because they dont want to play a game with generic classes, then be angry alone in your personal place, some of us are trying to calm fires down here, we dont need someone stirring things back up.</P> <P>ive made my own mistakes by getting overly emotional about a game, and i apologize for that as well. chill out man = thats not neccessary.</P> <P> </P>

[Noah]

<P>Nerf ...  god the word is used as much as the toys by 4 year olds it seems.</P> <P>I agree that the guardian class totally mitigates the wrong way at the moment.  There is going to be a lot of work into fixing this for a lot of reasons.  </P> <P>1) Mobs (un mitigated) hit for a ton of damage - this is why we see chanters dead all over the place.  </P> <P>2) Avoidance is very powerful.  Getting hit for zero damage is the best thing that can happen.  No heal is required.  No action by another player is needed.  </P> <P>3) Mitigation of hits are difficult to scale due to the damage that mobs do.   Adjusting mob damage or how often they hit will mean a reconfigure of all classes since not just the Fighter gets hit.</P> <P>So how to adjust it?  We could increase mitigation by a good amount on Plate and have them get hit with a huge amount of connecting hits at low damage and decrease the Avoidance of said classes.  Besides - how easy is it to dodge out of the way wearing 150lbs of inflexible metal.   <FONT color=#ff0000>End result</FONT> - Plate tanks will enjoy grouping with reactive and regen healers since the damage is being healed back the most efficiently this way. Yay!   Avoidance tanks will enjoy the wards and regen healers since the hits will come but will be few and for large amounts.  This could turn out bad due to some lucky streak of a mob getting 3-4 big hits off that are not being mitigated all that well.  BUT, that is how it goes when one wears only cloth and relying on ninja moves to not be hit at all.  </P> <P>Right now I think they are having a hard time balancing out how mitigation can work.  Give it to much and the % will trivalize tough mobs and make the lesser mobs extremely weak.  Give it to little and well, the blood will be on the walls of everyone in the group.  Same goes with avoidance but the % is a bit more tricky to play with since ZERO damage is king at the moment.  </P> <P>I am in favor of being hit.  Hit alot.  I just wanna be hit for a lot less damage than someone wearing cloth!  At the same time, I dont expect to be able to do backflips to avoid the blows of a foe.  </P> <P>Changes will come and at some point there will be a medium reached where things will NOT change for a long time.  No matter how many posts you make, no matter how many emails or personal msgs you send or parses you do...  there has to be a rest period to test for a large period of time and not patch to patch. </P> <P>much loves...</P> <P> </P>

[Gaige]

I want to have your babies Noah.  You are just that hot. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Oh, and excellent post.  No lie.  I can appreciate the thought you put into game balance in general.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That is why you are my idol.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><p>Message Edited by Gage-Mikel on <span class=date_text>03-27-2005</span> <span class=time_text>11:12 PM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>hmm thats odd, gage ive said that probably 10000000 times now... and you cant stand me...does it make more sense when noah says it?</P> <P>i guess so...</P> <P>aww well...</P> <P> </P>

[-Aonein-]

<STRONG></STRONG><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote:<BR> <P>Nerf ...  god the word is used as much as the toys by 4 year olds it seems.</P> <P>I agree that the guardian class totally mitigates the wrong way at the moment.  There is going to be a lot of work into fixing this for a lot of reasons.  </P> <P>1) Mobs (un mitigated) hit for a ton of damage - this is why we see chanters dead all over the place.  </P> <P>2) Avoidance is very powerful.  Getting hit for zero damage is the best thing that can happen.  No heal is required.  No action by another player is needed.  </P> <P>3) Mitigation of hits are difficult to scale due to the damage that mobs do.   Adjusting mob damage or how often they hit will mean a reconfigure of all classes since not just the Fighter gets hit.</P> <P>So how to adjust it?  We could increase mitigation by a good amount on Plate and have them get hit with a huge amount of connecting hits at low damage and decrease the Avoidance of said classes.  Besides - how easy is it to dodge out of the way wearing 150lbs of inflexible metal.   <FONT color=#ff0000>End result</FONT> - Plate tanks will enjoy grouping with reactive and regen healers since the damage is being healed back the most efficiently this way. Yay!   Avoidance tanks will enjoy the wards and regen healers since the hits will come but will be few and for large amounts.  This could turn out bad due to some lucky streak of a mob getting 3-4 big hits off that are not being mitigated all that well.  BUT, that is how it goes when one wears only cloth and relying on ninja moves to not be hit at all.  </P> <P>Right now I think they are having a hard time balancing out how mitigation can work.  Give it to much and the % will trivalize tough mobs and make the lesser mobs extremely weak.  Give it to little and well, the blood will be on the walls of everyone in the group.  Same goes with avoidance but the % is a bit more tricky to play with since ZERO damage is king at the moment.  </P> <P>I am in favor of being hit.  Hit alot.  I just wanna be hit for a lot less damage than someone wearing cloth!  At the same time, I dont expect to be able to do backflips to avoid the blows of a foe.  </P> <P>Changes will come and at some point there will be a medium reached where things will NOT change for a long time.  No matter how many posts you make, no matter how many emails or personal msgs you send or parses you do...  there has to be a rest period to test for a large period of time and not patch to patch. </P> <P>much loves...</P> <P> </P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>While this is what we have been aiming at and suggesting the entire time since Moorgards post Noah, there is one problem with reactive heals and being hit so much due to having low avoidance. Templars / Inquisitors will be chain casting reactives due to them wearing out so quick from being hit so much, sure they will keep us healed, but by the time the refresh timer on the reactives have repopped, its time to recast it again, thus generating a massive amount of agro now that they have also fixed Priest agro in reguards to Reactaive heals and wards to generate agro on the person who casted it, the faster they cast reactives, the more the reactives heal, the more agro they will generate. Same with wards. If you have a group of mobs on you and the reactive heal is eating the hits as fast as the Priest can cast it, this might not look too good, seeing Group buffs and AoE taunts are on some long timers, we might not be able to keep up with the amount of agro that could possibly generate.</P> <P>There is a down fall to having Mitigation increased to compensate for the amount we will be hit in return for a decrease in avoidance, and thats heal rotations. Seeing we will be getting hit for a considerable amount less, but more often, this will no doubt bring back the fabled heal rotation that raids depended on so dearly in EQ1. Seeing as mob hit so hard <STRONG><U>when</U></STRONG> they hit on raids, Reactive heals arent too reliable on raids cause there basically acting as a ward, absorbing some of the damage by healing for the small amount while you still take around 800 or so damage, but because of the extra increasement in Mitigation, this will allow a series of say 4 Priest class of many different types, not just Templars / Inquisitors, but when you think about what each Priest class can offer like Wardens for example with their 700 HP a tick, and Templars with there 1k HP heals, this will certianly be a issue if SoE doesnt want that sort of material to rear its ugly head again, which was the killer of raiding content in EQ1, stick a 12 - 15k HP tank in front of a raid mob, CHeal rotation, Raid chews mob down, Clerics keep groups alive in the event of PB AoE debuffs / dots / nukes, Druids CHeal rotation said tank till raid mob dies.</P> <P>Im sure they do not want this to happen again, and im one who doesnt want to see it go this road, thats for sure.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[Nemi]

No Sage, you have always been anti tank for a Monk. I could go back and quote most of your posts where you state we are an offtank class, a dps class.Noah states what we monks want; to be able to tank mobs but do it differently from Guardians.

[-Aonein-]

<P>Sage has never been anti-tank Nemi, your missing the entire point he makes day in day out in many of his posts which Noah has also said himself :</P> <P>Noah wrote :</P> <P><EM>This could turn out bad due to some lucky streak of a mob getting 3-4 big hits off that are not being mitigated all that well.  BUT, that is how it goes when one wears only cloth and relying on ninja moves to not be hit at all.</EM> </P> <P>I dont hear you mentioning anything about that, or Gage didnt even comment on that, because the simple fact is, avoidance will always be unreliable, spikey and hard to manage. There is always the chance in every fight of that bad spike happening and there is no possible way to predict it. Mitigation is safer, because it comes after avoidance, the final frontier to defense, this is the way the game is designed and once again, no one but SoE knows if <STRONG>0</STRONG> damage is written off as a miss, doesnt matter what formula anyone comes up with or how anyone states it, the only people who know the answer to that is SoE and they have not once stated that <STRONG>0</STRONG> damage gets written off as a miss nor have they said it doesnt, so its one of those mysterys, just like it was in EQ1.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P>

[MoonglumHMV]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Sage has never been anti-tank Nemi, your missing the entire point he makes day in day out in many of his posts which Noah has also said himself :</P> <P>Noah wrote :</P> <P><EM>This could turn out bad due to some lucky streak of a mob getting 3-4 big hits off that are not being mitigated all that well.  BUT, that is how it goes when one wears only cloth and relying on ninja moves to not be hit at all.</EM> </P> <P>I dont hear you mentioning anything about that, or Gage didnt even comment on that, because the simple fact is, avoidance will always be unreliable, spikey and hard to manage. There is always the chance in every fight of that bad spike happening and there is no possible way to predict it. Mitigation is safer, because it comes after avoidance, the final frontier to defense, this is the way the game is designed and once again, no one but SoE knows if <STRONG>0</STRONG> damage is written off as a miss, doesnt matter what formula anyone comes up with or how anyone states it, the only people who know the answer to that is SoE and they have not once stated that <STRONG>0</STRONG> damage gets written off as a miss nor have they said it doesnt, so its one of those mysterys, just like it was in EQ1.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>I'm not to the end game yet, but can I ask how exactly you would get hit for 0 damage?  If you are talking about mitigation 100% of the damage, well then I say that has to be not intended as well as the 100% avoidance.  In Noah's number post, he posts stats for the 50 guardian as 62.9% mitigation...are there enough mitigation buffs in the end game to give a player another 37% mitigation?

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>You can hit for 1 damage right, we all know this, but how do you know that you cant get hit for something along the lines of .7 which might do something crazy like round it off to .5 wiping it off as a miss, same as if for example you might get hit for 1.8 damage but it just rounds it upto 2 damage. The thing is, no one knows, its just one of those myths. The thing people are missing is a mob can hit for any amount of damage, there is no set minium amount, so any mob can potentially hit with in between 1 to max damage for its lvl range, just like i can hit for as low as 1 damage on a mob or it can be a miss, but how do i know my hit has been that low for example in the .7 range for it to rounded of to .5 and whiped off as a miss cause the mitigation knows the value is too small to caculate to give us a number on the screen so it just displays as a miss.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>12:38 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>which also chains right back to the other simple point that aonein said about heals being able to compensate for the damage without causing chaos with aggro problems and an even more simplistic approach to raiding.</P> <P>OR</P> <P> They scale heals to compete with a raid mobs damage in equal consistency, and a high level warden or priest could solo anything in game that isnt nailed down to the floor.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>While making mobs hit more often for less in combination with a <EM>mitigation increase</EM> and a <EM>defense/avoidance decrease for plate tanks</EM>, in essence would alleviate spikes for Mitigation tanks across the board and even them up a bit more, but still trivialize encounters for a guardian type which we would assume would get the best mitigation and avoidance (potential) out of buff stacking and the class' own buffs.  Making even those "more often for less" hits even that much more predictable with values that would be assumed to be upwards of 75%+ mitigation in the best raid *setup* possible.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>and how do you decide, whats enough avoidance to not make it a chain healing session, and whats enough mitigation as to not make the fight trivialized by predictably low amounts of damage, and still again not take away a bit of both avoidance and mitigation, and make the fights impossible to keep up with over the course of 30+ minutes in a difficult raid.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>That within itself is a big enough problem before even stepping into the realm of dealing with avoidance exclusively, considering that only 2 classes use it as their fundamental function while doing thier intended role.</FONT></P>

[Styk]

Guardians shouldnt have to worry about having the #1 Spot in raid tanking ...... Yall are great in that.... I would just like for us ( Berserkers i mean ) to have our 3 Defense buffs stack with each other..... To outline it this is the problem zerkers are having atm By lvl 50 zerkers have 3 main defense buffs 1 is our stance buff that has 3 concentration slots  and  the other Two are 3 min buffs .....  Problem is when we use our Controlled rage buff (  one of our 3 min defense buffs that is suppose to add more skill to our defense , it overwrites our stance therefore negating the stance for 3 min ) second problem is our Weapon Shield buff ( increases Parry ) doesnt do that atm..... When SoE changed how we look at defense ( mitigation and avoidance was seperated ) it showed that they both dont work..... Also they cant be refreshed till after they have faded and refresh timer is up ( 90 sec for both ) So the way i see it , there is no [Removed for Content] need to readjust tanks..... SoE needs to fix ALL of our skills first ( for each fighter class ) Lets stop bickering and trying to get each other nerfed and put a unitied front to get ALL FIGHTER SKILLS FIXED.... Maybe we can get someone from each archtype to post a Unified Post and list ALL OF OUR BROKEN SKILLS..... maybe SoE will take notice then... Strykr Destructicus 49 Berserker <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>SOE isnt neccessarily concerned with broken skills, the fix what they see as being broken for the most part as far as broken skills...and try to throw the classes in line as they see them, which is why scouts are getting so much attention in getting thier skills fixed, where as wizards were the flavor of the week about a month ago. (aka wizard=scout=warrior=priest= DPS Flow)</P> <P>They are trying to get the core of the game balanced which would explain all the changes to the the economy and tradeskilling and soon to be next in line is this big jacked up Combat engine that has all the classes tied together by the shoe laces.</P> <P>They will fix combat arts as they go, they are concerned with getting the core of the game stable before making any changes. Which is understandable, because i would hate to have something as big as this NERF or PATCH thats soon to come happen to me when im level 50, and im level 37 now...,that will uproot the entire system of how we play or percieve to play at high levels.</P> <P>But that isnt the direction that those players that are<U><EM> Already</EM> </U>of high level see things...They have gotten to thier destination and want what was wrong under the hood before they bought the car fixed before someone tells them they have to buy a new car... (if that makes sense)</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR> <P>Sage has never been anti-tank Nemi, your missing the entire point he makes day in day out in many of his posts which Noah has also said himself :</P> <P>Noah wrote :</P> <P><EM>This could turn out bad due to some lucky streak of a mob getting 3-4 big hits off that are not being mitigated all that well.  BUT, that is how it goes when one wears only cloth and relying on ninja moves to not be hit at all.</EM> </P> <P>I dont hear you mentioning anything about that, or Gage didnt even comment on that, because the simple fact is, avoidance will always be unreliable, spikey and hard to manage. There is always the chance in every fight of that bad spike happening and there is no possible way to predict it. Mitigation is safer, because it comes after avoidance, the final frontier to defense, this is the way the game is designed and once again, no one but SoE knows if <STRONG>0</STRONG> damage is written off as a miss, doesnt matter what formula anyone comes up with or how anyone states it, the only people who know the answer to that is SoE and they have not once stated that <STRONG>0</STRONG> damage gets written off as a miss nor have they said it doesnt, so its one of those mysterys, just like it was in EQ1.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Yes, I realize I didn't touch on it, and I chose not to because Noah also said this:</P> <P><BR> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> DemosthenesEQ2 wrote: <P> <FONT color=#ff0000>End result</FONT> - Plate tanks will enjoy grouping with reactive and regen healers since the damage is being healed back the most efficiently this way. Yay!  <FONT color=#ffff00> Avoidance tanks will enjoy the wards and regen healers since the hits will come but will be few and for large amounts. </FONT> This could turn out bad due to some lucky streak of a mob getting 3-4 big hits off that are not being mitigated all that well.  BUT, that is how it goes when one wears only cloth and relying on ninja moves to not be hit at all.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Do you know why wards don't take mitigation into account?  Do you know why light armor had more of a mitigation increase than heavy?</P> <P>How do wards work?  They are cast and then they protect for a certain amount, say 1800 damage.</P> <P>They are a damage shield, and they are not affected by mitigation.</P> <P>They take a certain amount of damage, and then they fade.</P> <P>Now, if avoidance wasn't broken, a ward is going to be pretty useless on a plate tank, because it'll be absorbed in no time.  OTOH on a brawler subclass tank it will last longer and be more effective.  Because the brawler is primarily going to be missed.  But when they are hit the ward will take either the entire or the brunt of the blow.  This allows for the recast time on the ward to be recharged.  The increase in light armor mitigation also serves to lessen the spikes we take from hard blows.</P> <P>So increased mitigation + ward + regen + instant heals = more manageable spikes.</P> <P>Its still going to be riskier because it has to be, avoidance is harder to code than mitigation, and its also easily overpowering.</P> <P>Like Noah said avoidance = being hit for 0 damage.  You would have to have 100% mitigation to mitigate a hit to 0, which would be overpowering also.</P> <P>You see the different types of heals in this game aren't just for flavor.</P> <P>Wards are as good on a plate tank as reactives are on a brawler tank.</P> <P>Right now the game has some design and balance issues, but those are being addressed.</P> <P>Moorgard also realizes that if avoidance is adjusted the amount of damage they do will have to be toned down while their hit rate is brought up.</P> <P>So I really see them trying to balance avoidance and mitigation, not make one obsolete.<BR></P> <P><BR> </P>

[Kince Stouthea]

<P>***WARNING*** This thread has been hijacked by the ever trolling Gage</P> <P>This message is automated please do not try to respond.</P> <P> </P> <P>*keeping your boards safe from trolling hijackers*</P> <P>Oogs the Hijack Partroll</P> <P>(Not to mention it was a pointless thread)</P>

[Nemi]

<blockquote><hr>-Aonein- wrote:<P>I dont hear you mentioning anything about that, or Gage didnt even comment on that, because the simple fact is, avoidance will always be unreliable, spikey and hard to manage. There is always the chance in every fight of that bad spike happening and there is no possible way to predict it.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P> <P> </P> <hr></blockquote>Thats why we work well with Shamans and wards, the ward takes the hit when we need it. I'm surprised I need to tell you that.

[SageMarrow]

<P>we all know what wards do very well, </P> <P>wards dont scale to raid mob damage...and probably wont...either way the priest classes are getting adjusted and everything that aoenin and i have said about aggro with healers and such is being changed as well.</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SageMarrow wrote:<BR> <P>we all know what wards do very well,</P> <P>wards dont scale to raid mob damage...<FONT color=#ffff00>and probably wont</FONT>...either way the priest classes are getting adjusted and everything that aoenin and i have said about aggro with healers and such is being changed as well.<BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Why do you say that?</P> <P>Everything about healers is being changed next live update, and then the way aggro and taunts work is being changed the one after that.<BR></P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>if you give wardens wards that scale into the 12,000hp range, they magically become the best soloist in game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While they are talking about the scaling mob damage down, that basically means they would have to scale the entire scheme down, but that doesnt sound right either with the scheme being...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>mitigation</DIV> <DIV>avoidance</DIV> <DIV>damage done by x mob</DIV> <DIV>damage taken by mitigation</DIV> <DIV>damage taken by avoidance</DIV> <DIV>regens</DIV> <DIV>wards</DIV> <DIV>reactives.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>but the way it sounds is like they are gona decrease mob damage, and increase healing effectiveness, but that cant be right. Unless they are going to do away with the guardians bonuses in tanking ability for being a guardian,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>heck i dont know -</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Nemi wrote:</P> <P><BR>Thats why we work well with Shamans and wards, the ward takes the hit when we need it. I'm surprised I need to tell you that.<BR></P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>You dont need too, but what happened when they *fixed* agility ? You got hit more and what happens to wards when any one gets hit with a ward up? It doesnt mitigate damage, so it basically soaks up 1, maybe 1 and a half hits, then its gone. Bad roll like Sage, Noah, myself and numerous other people have mentioned, means Ward gone in less then a second, monk wide open taking max hits 30% more of the time due to low mitigation.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server<BR></P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote: <P>You dont need too, but what happened when they *fixed* agility ? You got hit more and what happens to wards when any one gets hit with a ward up? It doesnt mitigate damage, so it basically soaks up 1, maybe 1 and a half hits, then its gone. Bad roll like Sage, Noah, myself and numerous other people have mentioned, means Ward gone in less then a second, monk wide open taking max hits 30% more of the time due to low mitigation.</P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE>You know what else happens.  We still don't get hit as often, so the ward lasts longer, making it eligible for recast as soon as we get hit AND conserves mana for instant heals, when added with our mitigation helps to ease the spikes, as intended.<BR>

[Mouadieb]

<div></div>why don't we rename this forum the everything you wanted to know about the game acording to gage thread? Seems to me Gage who is a monk, has something to say about every guardian post in the game. Why don't you admit it Gage, you are Guardian envy and really a closet guardian. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Mouadieb on <span class=date_text>03-28-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:59 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Mouadieb wrote:<BR>why don't we rename this forum the everything you wanted to know about the game acording to gate thread? Seems to me Gage who is a monk, has something to say about every guardian post in the game. Why don't you admit it Gage, you are Guardian envy and really a closet guardian.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>I post in all the forums pretty much.  Especially the signature one.  Do I have signature envy and am I really a closet signature?</P> <P>Or what about the screenshot forum?  Do I have screenshot envy and am I really a closet signature?<BR></P>

[Swiller_Alesba]

<P>I've learned one thing from reading these posts. Gage doesn't know jack crap about playing, and being, a guardian, yet here he is spouting like he knows all. You played a monk because you knew it was a DPS class.....else you wouldn't have played a monk. Don't bullsheet anyone into thinking you were under the assumption that a monk was going to be an equal tank as every other fighter...even the ones with 1/2 the DPS.</P> <P> </P> <P>If SOE changes my class to be the same tank as all the others and doesn't give my class the same utility spells and DPS....yes I'll quit. It's plain and simple. If things get that unbalanced, everyone will want to play the class that offers the most strength.</P> <P>I want to make that point crystal clear to any SOE staff reading this. If you make all the other fighter classes able to tank the same as my guardian, without adding the same DPS to me...with all the utility spells...I will quit.</P> <P>Swiller Alesbane</P> <P>50 Guardian - Core</P> <P>Everfrost</P>

[Gaige]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Swiller_Alesbane wrote:<BR> <P>I've learned one thing from reading these posts. Gage doesn't know jack crap about playing, and being, a guardian, yet here he is spouting like he knows all. You played a monk because you knew it was a DPS class.....else you wouldn't have played a monk. Don't bullsheet anyone into thinking you were under the assumption that a monk was going to be an equal tank as every other fighter...even the ones with 1/2 the DPS.  <FONT color=#ffff00>HAHAHAHAHA.  Yeah right.  I picked it to be a DPS class.  How about no.  I researched the class, read the beta forums, found out how the archetypes worked, and then picked the fighter (tank) class that best suited my style.  This choice was monk.  I didn't play EQ1 so I didn't know that those people thought monks are DPS.</FONT></P> <P>If SOE changes my class to be the same tank as all the others and doesn't give my class the same utility spells and DPS....yes I'll quit. It's plain and simple. If things get that unbalanced, everyone will want to play the class that offers the most strength.  <FONT color=#ffff00>Kinda like right now everyone wants to be a guardian because they can tank raids the best, thereby offering the most "tank" strength?</FONT></P> <P>I want to make that point crystal clear to any SOE staff reading this. If you make all the other fighter classes able to tank the same as my guardian, without adding the same DPS to me...with all the utility spells...I will quit.  <FONT color=#ffff00>They can't please everyone.</FONT></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>

[SageMarrow]

but as long as they please you = all is well. <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>and otherwise, you didnt start tanking until that other dude got you into it. Its not the ORIGINAL reason you started playing as tank. You did not set out to tank at all. So dont go there.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Otherwise, no new player expects to tank like a guardian when they choose a monk, most players dont even know that Fighter = tank or that mage = DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>i chose a bruiser because i wanted to play a bruiser, not because i wanted to tank. and thats the reason that most players choose the class they want to play.</DIV>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Gage-Mikel wrote:<BR> <BR> <P>Do you know why wards don't take mitigation into account?  Do you know why light armor had more of a mitigation increase than heavy?</P> <P>How do wards work?  They are cast and then they protect for a certain amount, say 1800 damage.</P> <P>They are a damage shield, and they are not affected by mitigation.</P> <P>They take a certain amount of damage, and then they fade.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Yes Gage i know how they work, but since the agility *fix* wards havent been very reliable for Brawlers or for anyone really. All they need to do is make Wards absorb the same amount of damage that they do now, but make them mitigate damage, what i cant understand is, NPC wards mitigate damage, so why arent Defillers and Mystics wards?</FONT></P> <P>Its still going to be riskier because it has to be, avoidance is harder to code than mitigation, and its also easily overpowering.</P> <P>Like Noah said avoidance = being hit for 0 damage.  You would have to have 100% mitigation to mitigate a hit to 0, which would be overpowering also.</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff00>Not entirely ture, because no one knows how damage gets calculated except for SoE, like my previous post about how we can still get hit for 1 damage, but what if its possibly to be hit for .7 damage making it round it off to .5 and whip it off as a miss, or anything under the .7 damage mark just gets written off as a miss completely, same as if for example i get hit 1.8 damage and it might round it upto 2 damage. So no you dont need 100% mitigation to be hit for 0 damage, you could still be taking that minscule peice of damage which gets written of as a miss because mitigation knows it cant caculate the number so it tells the system we never got hit, making it appear as a miss.</FONT></P> <P><BR> <HR> <P></P> <P> </P></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>If they decrease mob damage output, increase the amount of hits succesfully landed in other words Gage, there going to increase there Attack Rating, then the <STRONG><U>entire</U></STRONG> DPS system will have to be over hauled to fit this change because the mobs are going to be designed to be damage over time mobs now, not burst damage, where as it stands now, all groups pose a challenge to the entire fighter range, because of the burst damage scenario. Take that away and put there burst damage into a controled damage over time, then the entire DPS output of every class in the game has to be once again adjusted to fit so the mobs still pose a challenge since they wont be doing burst damage no more and seeing as it stands now, you kill a <STRONG>^^</STRONG> mob in 1min - 1 min 20 seconds roughly, or with a few wizards / warlocks you can kill group encounters in less then a min, then DPS would have to be dramatically adjusted for every single class to make all these encounters pose a challenge again seeing there DPS will be a more controlled damage over time instead of burst damage, there for doing less damage to the Tank and people with a unadjusted DPS output would waste these mobs and there would be no challenge anymore. So they would have to do a massive system revamp.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Reactive healing would be rendered useless for the simple fact Reactives are the same as a ward, except it heals for damage taken, but wears off after a certain amount, so with the reduction Plate class will recieve with avoidance, and the increase to mobs attack ratings but also the decrease in there damage output, a group encounter would eat through a reactive heal in less then a few seconds, this would then leave Templars / Inquisitors chain casting Reactives and the amount of agro that could possibly be generated would simply be mind boggling seeing as there making reactive heals generate agro for the caster every time it fires. So to fix this, they then need to revamp Reactive heals to either heal for less and last more then 6 heals to offset the amount of times a plate class would be getting hit, also the amount of agro generated would have to be adjusted to offset the amount of times a reactive would fire.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Wardens heals over time, HoT, would have to also be adjusted to heal for less per tick but last longer because of the NPC damage reduction, if they left wardens as they are, they would be the elite in the Priest section simply because there HoT's would heal for as much damage taken.</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffffff>Insta Heals would have to also be adjusted cause as it stands a Templar / Inquisitor can heal for 1k+ HP insta heal, seeing as mobs will be having a damage decrease and Plate tanks will more then likely get a mitigation boost to offset for the amount of times we will be hit now, a Templar / Inquisitor could just do a insta heal rotation in a group seeing reactive heals would generate too much agro due to firing too much, and Plate class tanks will be taking alot less damage due to increased mitigation + decrease to NPC mob damage output, making the old Cheal rotation from EQ1 ever so popular once again. Not only would it conserver power doing a insta heal rotation, its safer due to less chances of taking agro where reactive healing would pose a problem with agro stealing, especially in a group enviroment where a Tank might not be able to get group buffs and AoE Taunts to fire quick enough to keep up with the amount of agro generated by reactive heals firing, its boring cause of little to no challenge, and once again there will be the argument of Warrior / Cursader tanks are the more prefered over Brawlers because of the ease of healing due to increased Mitigation and less damage output by the NPC mobs. Where on the other hand, Brawlers wont be getting hit for as much due to decreased NPC mob damage output, but they would still have spikes due to a significantly lower mitigation value.</FONT></P> <P>Wards are basically fine as they are absorbing the amount they do, all they need to do is make them Mitigate damage to offset the amount of times we will be hit now due to decrease in avoidance and a increase in NPC attack rating, just like a NPC mob ward does, ill never understand why NPC wards mitigate damage and PC wards dont.</P> <P>So as anyone can see, the <STRONG><U>entire</U></STRONG> system needs to be revamped and im pretty sure that no one is willing to spend another 6 months paying to beta test something because of the lack of people on Test server, where we just spent the last 6 months basically <STRONG><U>PAYING</U></STRONG> to beta test the game, only for them to uproot everything they have fixed etc, and re-break it all, all over again when all of this <STRONG><U>BS</U></STRONG> should of been tested and found in beta itself when they had beta running, but they didnt run beta long enough and had to beat WoW out the door where now according to WoW forums there having more probelms then EQ2 atm, and if they had stayed in beta, and then released a more <STRONG><U>correct</U></STRONG> version of EQ2 to start with ( keep in mind i said more correct, i didnt say 100% flawless cause thats impossible ), people from WoW would of heard and came here to try it out, seen it was a more well balanced and stable game and they would of told there friends and so on, you cant beat word of mouth. The fanboi's of SoE would of always stayed there is no denying that, they would of never lost them, but at the moment there risking driving them away with the constant nerfing, changing and adjusting while they STILL fail to address the root of the problem which is BUFF STACKING and broken COMBAT ARTS, ABILITIES AND SPELLS. Maybe once they get these fixed, they might get a more decent picture of where the problem is and in turn we all might get a more precise fix, what people are failing to see, is with this mentioned fix of decreased damage output, increase attack ratings and adjusting the way +Defense buffs work, there only stepping it down a scale, there really not fixing anything.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P></DIV></DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-29-2005</span> <span class=time_text>01:02 PM</span>

[Gaige]

<P>Well, actually they are revamping the entire priest line as well as enchanters and summoners, and the way defense works.</P> <P>So it does indeed seem that they are going to revamp a whole lot of how stuff works.</P> <P>Oh and Sage, I picked the class based on what I read and I knew my role was to tank, I simply didn't like it.  I didn't understand it because I didn't know how to do it, therefore I sucked at it.  The more I started reading the forums and learning how these games work (SWG was my first MMO, its almost entirely solo, you don't need a tank at all) and CoH (I was a blaster, so again I didn't know how tanking worked) so I just would pull and spam CA's, wouldn't taunt, etc.  I didn't enjoy it partly because I didn't know how to do it.  But I educated myself and changed my opinion.  People are allowed to do that you know.</P>