Not a nerf flaming rant. Take a look.

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Im not a nerf flamist, but i seen a post by Moorguard today, and since im a Guardians little brother, id thought id put it up for you guys to take a look at it, seeing it could potentially effect both of us.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=13301#M13301" target=_blank>http://eqiiforums.station.sony.com/eq2/board/message?board.id=6&message.id=13301#M13301</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When i read that all i can smell is nerf to our buffs cause Berserkers also get Defensive buffs but not on the scale that Guards get.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All i can say is from yesterdays patch after the way they screwed things up with all class's across the board plus the problem Berserkers are having at the current moment, if they nerf us, lots of tanks will more then likely quit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV>

[Moontayle]

The big thing here is that for our +Defense buffs, I get much more value added to my Avoidance than my Mitigation, which considering who we are seems to be wrong. Essentially, there's still problems with the system that would have been found out sooner if they'd have ditched the whole 'mysterious numbers' philosophy that carried over from EQ1. I'm still waiting to find out what the heck my huge resist numbers actually do for me.

[adrian]

That's just the way it goes - you "fix" another class, by hobbling another. Thanks to the percieved disparity between fighter classes, the cheque has been in the mail on this one for a while. They aren't going to make other classes better at tanking, they are just going to close the gap by trimming some of the benefits that come with being a Guardian. Prepare yourself for 40 pages of the complaining/gloating laughing/crying arrogance/frustration that comes with any attempt to equalise classes. Guardians will be coming from everywhere to complain their brains out, and the tiny percentage of morons that make up the EQ2 community will take the opportunity to revel in the nerf. Tis the way of the unfortunately Anyway, there is no point stressing or worrying about what might happen. As it stands, I love playing Guardian, and there isn't much that could be done to change that. Buff nerf or stat nerfs aplenty wouldn't change that. <div></div>

[Kryog]

As a Guardian I personally don't mind either way.   I mean, when I was in a group and buffed today, with a tower shield and proper buffs I was sitting at around 50% mitigation (or better) and 70% avoidance.   Those numbers seem a bit high if you ask me.   Since I know some Brawlers who were also around 70% avoidance, it pretty much meant that they were less effective tanks than I was (since I mitigated a lot more).   I'd love to see Brawlers avoidance bumped to the 75-85% range and put me around 65% capped or so.   That way there is definitively a difference AND both classes are balanced accordingly.   It might even mean Brawlers are more potent tanks, which is fine with me too.

[Stra]

I defintiely smell impending nerfage. Berzerkers and Monks will get to keep their DPS skills that make them solo classes and also get our tanking skills. <div></div>

[Stra]

<span><blockquote><hr>Kryogen wrote:As a Guardian I personally don't mind either way.   I mean, when I was in a group and buffed today, with a tower shield and proper buffs I was sitting at around 50% mitigation (or better) and 70% avoidance.   Those numbers seem a bit high if you ask me.   Since I know some Brawlers who were also around 70% avoidance, it pretty much meant that they were less effective tanks than I was (since I mitigated a lot more).   I'd love to see Brawlers avoidance bumped to the 75-85% range and put me around 65% capped or so.   That way there is definitively a difference AND both classes are balanced accordingly.   It might even mean Brawlers are more potent tanks, which is fine with me too. <div></div><hr></blockquote>Thats right ... you were a more effective tank. Then again you cant dish out DPS for nothing and he can. Give him your tanking ability and leave him his DPS skills and what use is a guardian ?</span><div></div>

[MoonglumHMV]

<P>If I might interject something, and I'm not saying that anyone has/will, etc...but I think this is one instance where finger pointing and nerf calling isn't going to be in everyones best interest.  I think all of the fighter classes needs to get together on this one and find some common ground to stand on.  The changes Moorgard talk about are gamewide (MOB stats, avoidance in general, etc...), and as such are going to effect everyone.</P> <P>A good, thought out discussion, maybe on the combat/encounters board as it's not a class specific issue, I think might go a long ways at getting the fighter archtype on the same page to put our stance together on Moorgard's insight on what changes are discussing.</P> <P>Just my 2 cp.....</P>

[Moontayle]

I'll agree with that sentiment.

[SageMarrow]

im in for that

[Arsen]

The way Moorgard stated it, any 'nerf' would be more than just a simple change, but something more complex involving changes to the way mitigation works as well. I think the biggest problem is that Guardians don't really mititgate damage more than any other heavy armor wearing class.  Templars mitigate damage as well as we do - actually better if you just look at self buffs since they generally get more AC buffs than we do.  You would think those huge Tower shields would mitigate damage, but they don't - they increase your avoidance.  Our buffs increase our parry and defense skills which also gives us more avoidance.  The avoidance levels we enjoy today are very effective for tanking, but don't really fit with the class description.  If they somehow shift our avoidance abilities to ones that actually increase our mitigation, this wouldn't necessarily be a nerf, but it would be a big change to the way the class currently operates.  It could potentially result in a big nerf as well though, depending on how they implemented it.  SOE's track record of getting it right the first time is not that high - they need our imput.  Things are going to change, I think most high level Guardians know that - we just need to stay involved in the process as much as we can though and make sure we don't get screwed over in the process. <div></div>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>Arsenal wrote:The way Moorgard stated it, any 'nerf' would be more than just a simple change, but something more complex involving changes to the way mitigation works as well. I think the biggest problem is that Guardians don't really mititgate damage more than any other heavy armor wearing class.  Templars mitigate damage as well as we do - actually better if you just look at self buffs since they generally get more AC buffs than we do.  You would think those huge Tower shields would mitigate damage, but they don't - they increase your avoidance.  Our buffs increase our parry and defense skills which also gives us more avoidance.  The avoidance levels we enjoy today are very effective for tanking, but don't really fit with the class description.  If they somehow shift our avoidance abilities to ones that actually increase our mitigation, this wouldn't necessarily be a nerf, but it would be a big change to the way the class currently operates.  It could potentially result in a big nerf as well though, depending on how they implemented it.  SOE's track record of getting it right the first time is not that high - they need our imput.  Things are going to change, I think most high level Guardians know that - we just need to stay involved in the process as much as we can though and make sure we don't get screwed over in the process. <div></div><hr></blockquote> +Defense needs to be more than the simple superpowerful stat that it is.  It needs to not have the same effect for all classes or balance will not be possible. Not sure if this makes any sense but I originally expected Defense skill to contribute different things to different classes.   For example ...something like +Defense for a Gaurdian would contribute 75% to mitigation and 25% to avoidance. +Defense for a Monk would contribute 25% to mitigation and 75% to avoidance. Something along those lines. Currently +Defense means Avoidance for everyone which makes all tanks avoidance tanks. As for shields they are too simple as well.  The should also have a split contribution...i.e mostly increase avoidance but they should also give us some mitigation.   I mean if im using a big shield and something hits me...sure most of the attack will be absorbed by the shield but the force of the impact should cause me to take a little dmg.</span><div></div>

[Xzenous]

<P>Well let me say this….. Guardians don’t need to be changed at <FONT color=#ff0000>ALL</FONT>!</P> <P> </P> <P>This is a simple issue of buffs and buff stacking, perhaps they should take a close look at other classes buffs that add defense and make them not stack with Guardian buffs, but that is it, nothing else!</P> <P> </P> <P>All you guardians be warned, this could turn real ugly for us, if they nerf our class or defense there is nothing that make us stand out as a class, no class defining ability, we will just be the bottom tier tanks, and pretty much useless…..</P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>+Defense needs to be more than the simple superpowerful stat that it is.  It needs to not have the same effect for all classes or balance will not be possible.<BR>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____<BR></DIV> <DIV>Thats a good point, but only problem there is, when they took away class requirement and race requirements to be certain classes and all that good junk. They created a double edged light sabre for themselves and us. so any race could play any class and they could have a simple system by which to modify stats classes and whatever else to achieve balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So it turns out, that if your suggestion would be the one to go into port, they would have to reconfigure the scheme that makes us blanketed in our skills and abilities.  for example to help you understand my point, </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>before the big agility nerf, even a wizard with high agility could tank very well simply because he couldnt be hit, why? because agility effects all classes the same. so does intelligence and whatever else, the only things that are different are some modifiers placed within the stats that says, fighter power pool is determined by, str. preist power pool is determined by wis.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>you get the point, so yeah - that would take a complete overhaul and actual class grouping as opposed to the overall grouping, then archetype, then branch, then class grouping at its lowest level. that you see presently. it would actually turn that very tree upside down, and go class ------>> branch-----------> and on down the line in that direction.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>basically from what ** I ** see</DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV> <P>Well let me say this….. Guardians don’t need to be changed at <FONT color=#ff0000>ALL</FONT>!</P> <P> </P> <P>This is a simple issue of buffs and buff stacking, perhaps they should take a close look at other classes buffs that add defense and make them not stack with Guardian buffs, but that is it, nothing else!</P> <P> </P> <P>All you guardians be warned, this could turn real ugly for us, if they nerf our class or defense there is nothing that make us stand out as a class, no class defining ability, we will just be the bottom tier tanks, and pretty much useless…..</P> <P>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________</P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>Dont take it so hard brother, we feel you pain, but some think its for the best... and apparently soe says that all tanks will be equal...</FONT></P> <P><FONT color=#ffff33>and that a tank will be a tank in the same capacity as any other tank. nothing more nothing less.. sucks, will suck more later, and wont get better, this will most definately be a day that will forever live in infamy.</FONT></P></DIV>

[Uggok]

<DIV><FONT color=#ff0066>"Thats right ... you were a more effective tank. Then again you cant dish out DPS for nothing and he can. Give him your tanking ability and leave him his DPS skills and what use is a guardian ?"</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What is the difference between the dps of a non-tanking monk going all out for dps and a non-tanking guardian going all out for dps?  What is the difference between the dps of a tanking, taunting monk and a tanking, taunting guardian?  According to posts I have seen on the brawler boards, the difference is not very great.  However, I have not seen any parsing, and I am very new to the game. </DIV> <P>Message Edited by Uggok on <SPAN class=date_text>03-23-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>08:24 AM</SPAN></P><p>Message Edited by Uggok on <span class=date_text>03-23-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[RafaelSmith]

<span><blockquote><hr>SageMarrow wrote:<div> <p>Well let me say this….. Guardians don’t need to be changed at <font color="#ff0000">ALL</font>!</p> <p>This is a simple issue of buffs and buff stacking, perhaps they should take a close look at other classes buffs that add defense and make them not stack with Guardian buffs, but that is it, nothing else!</p> <p>All you guardians be warned, this could turn real ugly for us, if they nerf our class or defense there is nothing that make us stand out as a class, no class defining ability, we will just be the bottom tier tanks, and pretty much useless…..</p> <p>__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____________</p> <p><font color="#ffff33">Dont take it so hard brother, we feel you pain, but some think its for the best... and apparently soe says that all tanks will be equal...</font></p> <p><font color="#ffff33">and that a tank will be a tank in the same capacity as any other tank. nothing more nothing less.. sucks, will suck more later, and wont get better, this will most definately be a day that will forever live in infamy.</font></p></div><hr></blockquote> The Irony will be that in an attempt to create equal yet diference members of an archetype they will infact make everyone just equal...which will lead to analysis of secondary roles....at which point we will realize that many of us dont have one...which will lead to completly useless classes...at which point we will be back in EQ1.  =P </span><div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV> <P align=left>At the end of the day, no matter what Devs do, Plate class tanks will still be chosen on Raid mobs for the simple fact, <STRONG><U>Mitigation</U></STRONG>. Priests arent going to struggle to keep a Monk / Bruiser alive just because he wants to gloat that he can tank Raid mobs, because if your fighting Herioc Riad epic mobs, then no matter how much Avoidance you have, you are still going to be hit because there attack rating is going to surpass the 100% avoidance you have. Later on, we are going to be coming up against mobs that have 7 - 8k melee damage, a Monk isnt going to be standing there taking that damage for the simple reason :</P> <OL> <LI>They dont get the HP a plate class gets.</LI> <LI>They dont get the mitigation a plate class gets.</LI> <LI>Avoidance is unpredicable, and a bad roll against your avoidance number will still wipe you out in 2 - 3 hits no mater how you look at it because you dont get the mitigation a plate class gets.</LI></OL> <P>Personally, i dont see what the problem is, i can selfbuff myself to 49% mitigation and around 63% avoidance with a sheild, with out a shield im 57% avoidance against a lvl 45 mob. So Berserkers are basically 50 / 50, where they should be. Guardians can get 75% mitigation and around the same avoidance, Monks / Brusiers can get 40% mitigation and around 75 - 80% avoidance as it is now, so all one has to do is run a parser with a Monk / Bruiser tanking, and set the parser to total hits missed, blocked, parried and see who comes out on top, and no it wont be a Guard or Berserker. Even the scout class can get higher Avoidance percentage then Plate class because of the amout of Agility they recieve. Any class on a raid can get 100% avoidance, any class in a group can get 100% avoidance, its not just Guardians.</P> <P>Before they adjust anything, they <STRONG><U>NEED TO FIX COMBAT ARTS, ABILITIES, SPELLS</U></STRONG> before anymore nerfing, fixing or adjusting even happens, with all the broken spells and arts at the moment, no one knows if they are arthur or martha, and that is the <STRONG><U>BULK</U></STRONG> of the problem.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45h Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P></DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:16 AM</span>

[-Aonein-]

<DIV>Sorry cut myself short, there is one way around fixing Plate class tanks, and that would be to remove some of the agility of our Armor and replace it with a higher Mitigation rating, that way we get hit more, we still mitigate damage just as well cause we are getting hit more but for less due to the higher mitigation value, and fix buff stacking, its that simple, they wouldnt even have to adjust NPC's.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Im starting to wonder if Monks / Bruisers can tell the difference between a melee hit, and DoT damage caused by caster mobs or a caster nuke, because its not melee damage that kicks my candy, its Nukes and DoT damage, and that will kick anyones candy, not just a Guardian, not just a Berserker and not just a Cursader, it will literally eat everyone. Cause let me think now, im not sure that im 100% correct, but from what i have seen and talked about in raids and after raids, but Nukes, DoT's, AoE Nukes, AoE DoT's, PBAoE Nukes and PBAoE DoT damage are the biggest damage dealing utility a Heroic Epic Raid mob has at his dispense, like its already been pointed out, once his Power has been drained, in other words, if you survive the first 2 - 3 mins of a Heroic Epic Raid fight, then its all golden. After that it comes down to Buff stacking which is the reason no one gets hit and is the reason people have 100% avoidance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ive said it before and ill say it again, i think SoE messed up big time putting Brawler in the Fighter class for the simple fact the disparity between Avoidance and Mitigation is too great and its a gap that can never be narrowed down due to spikey, unpredicable game mechanics rolling bad numbers against you avoidance number. Think of it as a slot machine, maybe you will win, maybe you wont, well maybe it will miss, maybe it wont, but mitigation is like a Steam engine, just keeps going soild, same number, constantly, sometimes a spike here and there if the coal starts to run out, but shovel some more coal in and away she goes. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Its not going to change, it cant, because to make avoidance predicable would be a game killer and they dont want that because we will be all the way back to square one and Scouts will be tanking because of agility bumping there avoidance through the roof again. The only thing that will change is it will move down to a smaller scale due to mobs hitting for less damage BUT hitting succesfully more often, less damage caused by AoE nukes, PBAoE DoT's but landing more often and more then likely lasting longer etc, but what you see today will be the same after the *Fix*. Also they will 100% fix buff stacking, that im sure of.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Next thing you know, if they weaken the mobs damage output to do less burst damage and more damage over time, you know DPS class's will then have to be nerfed because whats the point in having a mob that can do more damage over time when you can kill it in less then 1 minute? Where it acually posed a challenge while it had burst damage? Maybe we should call this game Everbrawler and just design and build it around Monks / Brusiers.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</DIV><p>Message Edited by -Aonein- on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:50 AM</span>

[EvilIguana9]

Mitigation is not constant afaik.  The mitigation % they added in the latest live update is an average.  You can mitigate a lot less and you can mitigate a lot more, just like avoidance.  That means you can still be hit by damage spikes if you roll poorly.  But you have a point insofar as avoidance is binary.  You are either hit for a lot or not hit at all.  From what I can tell there is a smaller range with mitigated damage.  Don't think it's possible to mitigate it all or mitigate none, which lends credence to the assessment that you are less likely to get dangerous spikes. I think a big issue is mobs that 1 round or 1 hit tanks.  This has always struck me as poor game design. <div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<P>Yes thats ture, but Mitigation will always be more predicable then Avoidance, that was the point i was trying to make, there will always be spikes with Mitigation, just never as bad as Avoidance. Mitigation is a Tanks final form of defense, with out it, you are dead.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[SageMarrow]

<P>the last sentence was rubbish but overall, yeah = thats the point ive been trying to make for some time now on this issue. Its going to break more than it will fix.  when the problem could be fixed by leaving the class with what it has as far as  tanking and giving us dps just below a wizard without any of the utility or complications of playing a scout. </P> <P>So that will be the defining factor of the class. as well as to increase the dps dont boost combat arts or anything, just cute all the times in half and make them 1/2 power cost as well. so that way the dps goes way up and in tanking situations we arent a power sink while trying to use combat arts, and that also makes dps a viable use for building aggro in the presence of weaker taunts.  which in turn would make us the ideal tank for exp groups and speed groups and still give us a function on raids as dps instead of overhaulling the entire system for one class branch that still will have 10 hurdles to cross after and when this change goes into effect.</P> <P>That way they could leave raid mobs as they are and just give brawlers a group buff that gives a 45-50+% chance to critical strike. and viola - what do you have? balance 1-50 - raid functionality - a class that actually embodies what a monk/bruiser is - (as opposed to the lightlyarmored punching bag) - a tank that relies on speed and will be preferred in those instances -</P> <P>and while i know that setup wouldnt co = inside with some monk/tanks and bruiser/tanks'' dreams, it is indeed the </P> <P>SIMPLEST SOLUTION... without having to uproot all the other classes and build them around our issue. </P> <P>because i said long ago that the reason that i was an advocate for dps side of things, was not because i wanted to stand around and do dps, but simply because it seemed like the right direction to go when looking at our taunts, skill sets, abilities, inconsistencies with other tanks, and also a way to preserve the true flavor of the class without making it into a lightly armored guardian.</P> <P>And in actuality - that in effect is a change that everyone can live with, always having a dps/utiltiy spot on raids, and being the preffered grinding tank 1-50. perfect balance. and put us to rest, and concentrate on shadowknights and shamen and enchanters who all have a much bigger issue than us. </P>

[Eelyen]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> adrian76 wrote:<BR>That's just the way it goes - you "fix" another class, by hobbling another. Thanks to the percieved disparity between fighter classes, the cheque has been in the mail on this one for a while. They aren't going to make other classes better at tanking, they are just going to close the gap by trimming some of the benefits that come with being a Guardian.<BR><BR>Prepare yourself for 40 pages of the complaining/gloating laughing/crying arrogance/frustration that comes with any attempt to equalise classes. Guardians will be coming from everywhere to complain their brains out, and the tiny percentage of morons that make up the EQ2 community will take the opportunity to revel in the nerf. Tis the way of the unfortunately<BR><BR>Anyway, there is no point stressing or worrying about what might happen. As it stands, I love playing Guardian, and there isn't much that could be done to change that. Buff nerf or stat nerfs aplenty wouldn't change that.<BR> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV><BR>It's amazing how the voices of a few people in the scheme of things can change things.  And the fact that guardians aren't complaining show that we have been happy with the class we picked.  With our advantages and disadvantages.  I mean seriously, if they didn't want a "true" tank class they never should of made a class called "Guardian"  And the fact that Guardians are more often then not preferred for raids, makes it unbalanced.  Sure...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>And if they nerf guardians, you can bet that there will be alot more posts then there was from avoidance tanks.</DIV>

[Kryog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Strast wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <P>Thats right ... you were a more effective tank. Then again you cant dish out DPS for nothing and he can. Give him your tanking ability and leave him his DPS skills and what use is a guardian ?<BR></SPAN><BR></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Mitigation classes, regardless of what name they go by, will always be more effective against fights that last long periods of time (epic encounters), and DPS classes will always be better versus the short fights (experience grinds).   It's why Guardians are stereotyped to be the raid tanks, because fights tend to last 10, 20, up to 60 minutes on a single mob, where as groups of Wizards with an Enchanter pulling can get away with killing experience mobs twice as fast as anyone else in the game.   But a DPS class up against a ^^^ Epic x 4 mob, and watch them go down in one or two hits.   Put a Guardian up against that same mob with adequate healing, and watch the raid be successful.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Brawlers can have their DPS, and they can have their avoidance.   Give me minimal DPS but great mitigation and tons of hit points, and I'll win the battle for better tank every time.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Jay]

<P><FONT size=2>I should know better than to read these threads.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2>I'm amazed by the extreme paranoia about guardians suddenly being "useless" or "irrelevant." You seriously think you're going to go from one of the most important classes in the game to dirty commoner status? Grouping in this game revolves around two classes: fighters and healers. Neither will ever be irrelevant. I know you've enjoyed being the best tanks around for a long time, and a lot of you think that's your god-given right, but you'll deal with any changes to your class just like all the other classes have (and will). Chances are, if you like your character, you'll continue liking your character. SOE isn't going to take away all your weapons and armor and give you the approximate endurance of a shy schoolgirl named Susie. Acting like the sky is falling won't change anything. You (soon to be we) are guardians, you will always be seen as one of (if not THE) best tanks in the game. SOE may level the playing field a bit, but guardians will not suddenly find themselves playing with stuffed bunnies and wearing plaid skirts. Keep your heads up.</FONT></P> <P><FONT size=2></FONT> </P>

[Swiller_Alesba]

<P>If they make all tanks mitigate the same....hell I want to be able to output damage just like a monk!</P> <P> </P> <P>Make us all the EXACT SAME! Yea, that's the solution.......not.</P> <P> </P> <P>Fighter, Cleric, Rogue, Magic-user. Oooooo, fair enough, but boring.</P>

[nig]

<P>Well it is quite funny to see any one complaing about guardian .</P> <P>To solve this issue</P> <P>We have two choice :</P> <P>1) Remove any specialized class.</P> <P>We only have fighter, scout, mage and priest.  Any fighter will have same tanking capabilites and dps.</P> <P>2) Stop to complain and accept that guardian are the tank by design </P> <P>If gurdian are mitigation king, their role is to tank. An avoidance tank will be hit less often but he wills till get far more spike dmg and will die faster. A mitigation tank will have more predictible dmg input.</P> <P>So if you want to twink figures so that Brawler and Warrior get the same amount of input dmg on a long fight, warrior will die less often from spike dmg, Making them Tank by nature.</P> <P> </P> <P>Understand that if you remove things to guardian to get more for other class on tanking role we will ask same on the dps area.</P> <P>So by desing class are like that :</P> <P>guardian : Mitigiation king  = > goal is to tank Bad [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] boys</P> <P>Bersek : less mitigation but increase of dps</P> <P>Brawler : Avoidance king,   => goal is to split tank or thing like that</P> <P>Crusader : a mix between mitigation and avoidance and shield specialist.</P> <P>Scout : mele dps king, as it is now brawler outclass them and that not the role of a fighter!!!</P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <p>Message Edited by nigni on <span class=date_text>03-24-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:25 AM</span>

[SniperKitty]

<span><blockquote><hr>Swiller_Alesbane wrote:<div></div> <p>If they make all tanks mitigate the same....hell I want to be able to output damage just like a monk!</p><hr></blockquote> Buy some dual wield weapons, put away the shield, and use your offensive skills you dumbarse.  Lvl 50 guardians do 100-120dps.  Lvl 50 monks do 120-140dps.   Haven't you jackholes read the posts by Gage and Gangster... WITH PARSE NUMBERS?!  Sheesh.  The dps gap between Guardian and Monk is like 10-20dps.  That's it.  Monks are not a dps class you morons.</span><div></div>

[-Aonein-]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> SniperKitty wrote:<BR><SPAN><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Swiller_Alesbane wrote:<BR> <P>If they make all tanks mitigate the same....hell I want to be able to output damage just like a monk!</P><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>Buy some dual wield weapons, put away the shield, and use your offensive skills you dumbarse.  Lvl 50 guardians do 100-120dps.  Lvl 50 monks do 120-140dps.   Haven't you jackholes read the posts by Gage and Gangster... WITH PARSE NUMBERS?!  Sheesh.  The dps gap between Guardian and Monk is like 10-20dps.  That's it.  Monks are not a dps class you morons.<BR></SPAN> <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P><BR>Thats because they want the numbers to fall there way SniperKitty, i group and parse numerous lvl 50 monks on my server that when going all out DPS mode, they do well into 180 - 200 DPS. The difference between a Monk and Guardian DPS is more significant then your Monk brethren let you believe.</P> <P>Taemek Frozenberg 45th Berserker<BR>16th Outfitter<BR>Blood and Ice<BR>Everfrost Server<BR><BR>Enlightened Aonein Amillion ( retired )<BR>70th Stone Fist of The Celestial Fist<BR>Five Rings on Luclin Server</P>

[SageMarrow]

<DIV>and beyond that, most combat arts for a guardian also have a hate generating effect built into them that in a well run group makes them useless since you arent supposed to pull aggro from the MT. especially since high level taunts and aggro building techniques are STRONG for guardians and zerkers...</DIV>

[Gaige]

<DIV><BR></DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> -Aonein- wrote:<BR><BR> <BLOCKQUOTE>Thats because they want the numbers to fall there way SniperKitty, i group and parse numerous lvl 50 monks on my server that when going all out DPS mode, they do well into 180 - 200 DPS. The difference between a Monk and Guardian DPS is more significant then your Monk brethren let you believe.</BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <DIV>Nah, I don't lie.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I did over 200 dps on the gulch drakota...and lost to a rampaging zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Bruisers do routinely parse 180 to 200, and monks can break 200.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I never said we couldn't.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>But guardians can break 100 easy, and I've seen posts from Guardians who break 120.  There have been lots of encounters (especially mobs higher than lvl 50) where I struggle to be mid 100s.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>We are supposed to do more damage, that is by design.  But guardians don't do the measely 10dps versus our 500 that they try to imply.<BR></DIV>

[SageMarrow]

<P>well gage, how do they close the tanking gap tight enough for you to tank raids... and they still do 80 on average less dps than us, that seems pretty balanced to me in exchange for what they have and what we dont.</P> <P>that much dps isnt specific only for taunts in exchange. </P> <P> </P>

[Nemi]

Nerf Monk DPS simple as that. I'm a monk, I want to tank, thats the class I chose (Fighter). Monks DPS is too high and it will get nerfed along with Guardian avoidance. <div></div>

[SageMarrow]

<P>lol, nemi its great how about 15 monks at max would trade in the dps for pure tanking ability. that is the most closed minded thing ever. no disrespect, but you would forsake everything that makes your class individualistic and different so that you could do one simple job of mashing taunt and taking damage?</P> <P>If you had it your way thier would be 4 classes and the other 20 would just be different named fluff just for show so that SOE can say, HEY _ WE GOT 24 CLASSES!!! (not really, but then again technically... - )</P> <P>Nemi, please think about what you are saying.  and if you can read this and reply in the same fashion, then we will know 1 of 2 things, either this game is not for <EM><STRONG>MOST</STRONG></EM> of us, or its not for you.</P>

[Ibis]

<div></div><div></div>We're the worst in DPS and the best in tanking.  That isn't going to change.  We're too good right now, but they'll balance encounters around what is possible and what is fun so I'm not concerned.  I don't always agree with their point of view, but most of the time I do and I understand exactly why they make the changes they do.  There are issues with the way all encounters work right now.  I sit around 57% mitigation 64% avoidance unbuffed (not even my own).  I think we're too good and hell, I've tanked Darathar and plenty of other mobs so I've got some perspective on the issue.  The entire balance of encounters of mob levels 20-58 (raid or XP) need to be adjusted to be more quick, reactive, chaotic and less ....drawn out.... in my opinion.  I will overcome and adapt to any change incoming and I hope brawlers are put on more even ground with us in XP groups as well as given "a" tanking role in raids (not mine).   I don't, personally, believe that anyone should usurp our role on edge content, but I may be willing to recant that opinion depending on the changes made in the future.  The guardian advantage should be to even out the spikes that would be barely surmountable without such a mitigation oriented tank.  There is plenty of room in the way encounters can be designed to give every fighter class a tanking oriented role in raids. On the subject of exactly how much DPS I do on raids?  Almost none.  Far less than 50 everytime I'm tanking.  That is because due to the DPS our brawlers, predators, rogues, zerkers, etc. are pumping out I must put every second of my time into taunting the mob.  So in effect as the waterline of my aggro rises so does the DPS of the raid in response.  i.e. my aggro = their dps.  And don't bring up rampaging zerkers.  It has a 60 minute re-use as well as other limits.  It is utility and one that has been nerfed enough already. /derailI really wish they'd link the casts on our entire line of Taunting Blow including Slate's b/c its just annoying tapping like 9 buttons to produce aggro.  Its not fun and I don't see why I shouldn't have fun on raids.  Of course no one is having fun with the way most raids are right now, but you get the point.  Increased aggro should be put into Hold the Line upgrades, stance, better upward scaling of our current taunts, etc. to make up for the loss of aggro generated via constant use of every taunting blow.  They could even create equipment and buffs that increase your effective casting level.  A sword which gives me +3 deafen level effectively making my adept 3 into a master 2 or 3.  Ok, done. <div></div><p>Message Edited by Ibishi on <span class=date_text>03-25-2005</span> <span class=time_text>07:31 AM</span>

[SageMarrow]

<P>yeah, but that can be achieved easily, by taking 1 of your defense boosting buffs and turning it into mitigation only.</P> <P>and from there on out, simply scale mobs up-= or go through and change buffs to add to mitigation (which wouldnt really solve the problem) but it would address the avoidance and misses on level 54^^^namedepicx4 mobs..</P> <P>and in core content guardians arent really that much better than a zerker or anything else with heavy armor.</P> <P>the differences really only show when you get 2 priest/bard groups that can stack the buffs just right... or things of that nature, where the Hp differences and defensive stacking starts to appear which TO ME. isnt that big of a deal considering the nature of the class.</P> <P>Now considering the raid thing and personal stats, at that level that calibur of gear... its going to happen. there will be a day where a monk walks around with 100%avoidance just because of the armor. they are introducing armors with +parry and +deflection into the game. almost bought a pair tonight for level 40's.  So its going to happen unless they cap it at its core as to say that a guardian can never get past 65% or so. (which the added mitigation would still compensate for). but you have much more raiding experience than i do and will by the time i even get there, so i wouldnt dare debate you on that one.. =)</P> <P> </P>

[Jay]

<FONT size=2>Great post, Ibishi. I enjoyed reading a well thought-out discussion (rather than flame wars) on this topic. Thanks.</FONT>

[Hastur Bloodwa]

What I want to know is, why can't <u><b>we</b></u> get a dev to pop his/her head round the metaphorical door and answer our questions or try and put our worries to rest?  Are we EQ2 pariahs? Do';t we deserve to have our problems looked at, perceived or real? <div></div>

[Owa]

Good post Ibishi. Nice to see some empathy and restraint.