Why?

[Pry]

<DIV>First is my usual "This is not a flame but a question" disclaimer.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I saw a couple of things that I don't understand why it would be important to make these changes:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>*** Damage Rating *** </DIV> <DIV><BR> - Weapons now display a Damage Rating that makes it easier to judge the relative base damage of a given weapon. <BR> - The higher the Damage Rating, the better a weapon's base melee damage output. <BR> - The Damage Rating does not take into account stats, procs, or effects, so there may be circumstances where a weapon with a lower Damage Rating is more desirable.   </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff>What was wrong with the base damage XX-XX currently displayed on weapons?  I don't know how a 'rating' is easier, I can't envision right now one scenario where this would be preferable to what is in place now.  What is the 'max' rating on weapons?  I am sure it won't be 1-10, probably something obtuse like 1-3465 and you have to figure out where your number, say it is 1243, fits in there.  I don't understand.</FONT><BR>   <BR>  <BR> *** Avoidance and Mitigation *** <BR>   <BR>  <BR> - Instead of displaying a single value to express your character's defensive capabilities, your Persona window now separates AC into Avoidance and Mitigation. <BR> - Avoidance represents your chance to avoid physical attacks. Mousing over the Avoidance value on your Persona window will show your overall chance to avoid attacks, and will indicate the value of your various avoidance-based skills and your shield if you have one equipped. </DIV> <DIV>- Mitigation indicates how well your armor will absorb incoming physical damage. Mousing over the Mitigation value on your Persona window will show your overall absorption percentage against attacks at your level. Examining a piece of armor will show its relative mitigation value based on level, quality, and type of armor. <BR>- Shields now display a Shield Factor to represent their relative usefulness.<FONT color=#ff00ff>  (don't they do this now?)</FONT><BR>- Both Mitigation and Avoidance percentages are based on defending yourself against an average opponent of your level. You will tend to mitigate and avoid better against weaker opponents and worse against stronger ones. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff>Why would you care if you are avoiding or mitigating? </FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff>If you are mitigating damage, you are absorbing it.  If you are avoiding damage, you aren't getting hit.  Either way, you aren't getting damaged, and why would one be greater than the other if they have the same result?</FONT>  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am sure there is some purpose to doing this, I just don't understand why.  Does anyone have any ideas?  It seems inane to me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vitesse</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff><STRONG>Vitesse Errdegahi</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff><STRONG>Guild Leader, Night's Dark Terror</STRONG></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff><STRONG>Antonia Bayle</STRONG></FONT></DIV>

[apme]

Unless you're mitigating 100% of damage, avoidance and mitigation are 2 different things. Whether or not you avoid an attack or mitigate it makes a big difference to the healer. If you avoid for 5 minutes straight and then suddenly get hit (mitigate) 5 times in a row - you may catch the healer off guard.  I'd say thats pretty significant to know. <div></div>

[dzenith]

<DIV>In order to tell if a weapon that drops is better than your current one you would need to do a calculation.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Average weapon dps = (min_dam + max_dam)/(2*delay)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It is pretty hard to tell which weapon is better among 2 weapons of differing delays without doing the math.  My understanding is that the new damage number will make doing that unecessary.  Personally, I would rather not have to grab my calculator when a weapon drops to see if it is an upgrade. </DIV>

[Arsen]

I think the weapons rating is just the DPS.  I guess people didn't like having to think about the speed of a weapon as well as the damage.  You know, math is bad and people are unsure how to use a calculator. The mitigation vs. avoidance debate is an interesting one though.  In certain situations, you will want to choose your tank based on different criteria.  Avoidance against some monsters isn't going to help you much so you would need mitigation.  In other situations, an Avoidance tank might be preferable.  Splitting the numbers allows us better insight to make those decisions.  Besides that, I'm sure the new numbers will provide pages and pages of cross-class fighter flaming over who is the best tank <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[Pry]

<P>I don't know, I just feel like it's getting really granular.  I understand that there are times when avoidance is more important than mitigation and visa-versa, but honestly was it such an issue before that it warrants a change?</P> <P>I would assume therefore that this change is for people that are playing a different type of game than me?  (i.e. I am grouping/soloing).  For a simpleton like me, I would rather have one number that says "This is a good shield!".  I am going to be baffled over figuring out what I should do for weeks to come, I am sure! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P><FONT color=#ff9900>WANTED:  Guardian level 24.3 - 24.6 with 200 points in mitigation and 50 points in avoidance with 745 magic resist to kill caster level 25.1 PST!</FONT></P> <DIV>The weapon thing.  I guess I can understand if you are really into calculating that sort of thing.  I take a weapon based on the stats first, how much it hits for second, I am not sure I care how fast it is  (usually the difference is a choice between 1.2 seconds and 1.3 seconds anyway or something silly like that).</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Another thing I am going to be baffled over for weeks I guess!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Well thanks all for the responses I appreciate it.  I hope the new system is at least intuitive in some respects and not some wierdo number like 40473 that you will have to stare at for 30 hours before you figure it out! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Vitesse</DIV>

[Arsen]

<span><blockquote><hr>Prynn wrote:<p>I don't know, I just feel like it's getting really granular.  I understand that there are times when avoidance is more important than mitigation and visa-versa, but honestly was it such an issue before that it warrants a change?</p><hr></blockquote>I honestly think it is more of a change for the people that like to crunch the numbers and debate about which classes perform which roles the best, etc.  Having the 2 seperate stats will make it obvious how some tank classes differ from eachother.  Having just one AC number that is pretty much equal across all the fighter classes doesn't really help you much besides set a baseline for what your AC should be at a given level. They aren't getting rid of the AC stat though I don't believe, so you should still have that one all around number you can look at  and get a good feel for your overall tanking capabilities.</span><div></div>

[Arsen]

<div></div>Eh, I take that back - I just logged in. AC is gone - can't believe they actually got rid of the Armor Class stat, its been around forever <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You now have Mitigation as an absolute number, and Avoidance as a %.  Shield Factor is now show on your shield and is calculated in your avoidance % - my SF 638 shield added about 8% avoidance. The biggest problem.. the Defense skill does not seem to be calculated into either stat at all.  Lol, our most important skill and it is not represented in either number. Edit:  The Damage Rating on the weapon seems to be very close to the DPS number, just a little lower for some reason. <p>Message Edited by Arsenal on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>10:34 AM</span>

[Pry]

<P>Yeah wow, this is what I was afraid of.</P> <P>Vitesse</P>

[TheLivingPlu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Arsenal wrote:<BR> Eh, I take that back - I just logged in.<BR><BR>AC is gone - can't believe they actually got rid of the Armor Class stat, its been around forever <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You now have Mitigation as an absolute number, and Avoidance as a %.  Shield Factor is now show on your shield and is calculated in your avoidance % - my SF 638 shield added about 8% avoidance.<BR><BR><FONT color=#ffff00>The biggest problem.. the Defense skill does not seem to be calculated into either stat at all.  Lol, our most important skill and it is not represented in either number.</FONT><BR><BR>Edit:  The Damage Rating on the weapon seems to be very close to the DPS number, just a little lower for some reason.<BR><BR> <P>Message Edited by Arsenal on <SPAN class=date_text>03-21-2005</SPAN> <SPAN class=time_text>10:34 AM</SPAN><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Defence seems to have more to do with avoidance than the percentage appearing with todays patch, my monk has just over 70% avoidance and my guardian just over 50%. But my Guardian avoids more hits than my Monk fighting the same mobs at the same level even though there is a 20% difference in avoidance.</DIV>

[Yrield]

<span><blockquote><hr>TheLivingPluto wrote: <blockquote> <hr> Arsenal wrote: <div></div>Eh, I take that back - I just logged in.AC is gone - can't believe they actually got rid of the Armor Class stat, its been around forever <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  You now have Mitigation as an absolute number, and Avoidance as a %.  Shield Factor is now show on your shield and is calculated in your avoidance % - my SF 638 shield added about 8% avoidance.<font color="#ffff00">The biggest problem.. the Defense skill does not seem to be calculated into either stat at all.  Lol, our most important skill and it is not represented in either number.</font>Edit:  The Damage Rating on the weapon seems to be very close to the DPS number, just a little lower for some reason. <p>Message Edited by Arsenal on <span class="date_text">03-21-2005</span> <span class="time_text">10:34 AM</span> </p><hr> </blockquote> <div>Defence seems to have more to do with avoidance than the percentage appearing with todays patch, my monk has just over 70% avoidance and my guardian just over 50%. But my Guardian avoids more hits than my Monk fighting the same mobs at the same level even though there is a 20% difference in avoidance.</div><hr></blockquote>Yes, +8 defense give me +0.8% of advoidance <span>:smileysad:</span> dont change mitigation at all +10 kite shield dont change anything at all... i just dont get it anyways how are we supposed to scale the whole thing again the mob we fight you will absorb X% of the dmg of a lvl 33 mob you have Y% to avoid an attack from a lvl 33 mob ...ok, what about a lvl 32 ? or 37 mob ?</span><div></div>

[Pry]

<P>After logging in today I have:</P> <P>1540 Mitigation</P> <P>60.2% Avoidance.</P> <P>Grats me?!  I don't know what this means....*shrug*.   With no baseline to compare it with, they might as well have said Mitigation: Apple  Avoidance: Lime</P> <P>Perpetually a newbie,</P> <P>Vitesse</P> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff>Vitesse Errdegahi</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff>Guild Leader</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff>Night's Dark Terror</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff00ff>Antonia Bayle</FONT></DIV>

[pohs]

<P> </P> <BLOCKQUOTE> <P></P> <HR> <P>Prynn wrote:</P> <P>I don't know, I just feel like it's getting really granular.  I understand that there are times when avoidance is more important than mitigation and visa-versa, but honestly was it such an issue before that it warrants a change?</P> <P> For a simpleton like me, I would rather have one number that says "This is a good shield!".  I am going to be baffled over figuring out what I should do for weeks to come, I am sure! <img src="/smilies/69934afc394145350659cd7add244ca9.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></P> <P>The weapon thing.  I guess I can understand if you are really into calculating that sort of thing.  I take a weapon based on the stats first, how much it hits for second, I am not sure I care how fast it is  (usually the difference is a choice between 1.2 seconds and 1.3 seconds anyway or something silly like that).</P> <P></P> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Originally there was one AC number that only took into account Mitigation.   This made it hard to compare tanks (say guard vs. monk) because monks are not armor wearers.  So SoE decided to make one combined number that took into account avoidance AND AC. </P> <P>Unfortunately you cannot just add mitigation and avoidance numbers, they effect each other so they have to be factored.  This meant the single AC number was meaningless and in fact misleading.  The new system has avoidance and mitiagtion separate, because they are different things, and cannot easily be combined.</P> <P>I'm a numbers person so I'm glad they made the change from a single meaningless number to two numbers that have real value.  Actual numbers scare people for some reason, if you are one of those people, don't look at them.</P> <P>If you look at sheilds they all do have a shield factor number.   </P> <P>I'm surprised you don't like the weapon change, they took 3 numbers and combined them into one....isn't that what you want? </P> <P> </P> <P> </P> <P> </P>

[Wandat]

<P>The new Damage Rating does not seem accurate to me.  I currently have 2 1H weapons, a Mancatcher and a Sandstone War Axe.  I am currently 10th level and the stats are listed as follows:</P> <P> </P> <P>Mancatcher : 1 Hand Piercing, Damage 7-21 (10-31 at Level 15), Delay 2.8, +1 INT, +1 STR, +1 WIS, +4 Health, +5 Power</P> <P>Sandstone War Axe : 1 Hand Slashing, Damage 4-13 (6-17 and Level 13), Delay 1.6, +13 Health, +12 Power, +40 vs Cold, +80 vs Heat, +60 vs Poison, +4 AGI, +4 STR</P> <P> </P> <P>Now using the traditional formula of ((Low Damage + High Damage) / 2 ) / Delay gives the following DPS ratings:</P> <P> </P> <P>Mancatcher : 5 DPS (7.3 DPS at level 15)</P> <P>Sandstone War Axe: 5.3 DPS (7.2 DPS at level 13)</P> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>However, the new Damage Rating says that the Mancatcher is 9.0 and the Sandstone War Axe is 7.9.  Those numbers do not match anything I get from the traditional formulas.  Even worse, if I were to only look at the new Damage Rating it would appear the Mancatcher is a better weapon, not including any other stats.  However at my level the Sandstone War Axe is clearly superior, again not including any other stats.  I do have all of my slashing/crushing/piercing maxed.  Maybe I am just too low of level to get accurate numbers but something definetely seems wrong to me.</DIV>

[Pry]

<DIV>After playing last night:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I like the weapon change.  I understand it now that I got an opportunity to see it so please disregard my comments on that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I still don't understand the armor thing, but I am sure I will figure it out at some point.   Thanks for the help in at least trying to understand the change.  I am still not sure why it was done, but that's ok I don't have to understand everything <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>-Vitesse "1-Star" Errdegahi</DIV>

[Banditman]

I think the Weapon Rating also takes into account the "Mastery" level of the weapon in addition to the DPS.  Therefore when comparing two weapons with identical DPS, the weapon with the higher Mastery level will have a higher Weapon Rating.

[Wandat]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Banditman wrote:<BR>I think the Weapon Rating also takes into account the "Mastery" level of the weapon in addition to the DPS.  Therefore when comparing two weapons with identical DPS, the weapon with the higher Mastery level will have a higher Weapon Rating. <BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR>That's what I suspected as well but it doesn't add up in the example weapons I used.  Yes, the Mancatcher is ultimately better but only by about 2%.  However the new rating makes it appear as if it is ultimately 13% better.

[Banditman]

<P>I understand.  Yes, your DPS is only showing 2% greater when mastered, however, what I'm thinking is:</P> <P> </P> <P>Weapon Rating = DPS + (Some complicated *&@ formula based upon the overall mastery level of the item independant of DPS)</P>

[Wandat]

You're probably right about some complicated hidden formula.  I'm not sure which to trust though, the damage/delay numbers I can see or some new overall number that is based on hidden numbers I can't see.  I'm new to the melee profession (recovering Mystic like yourself :smileywink: ) and at the moment I have more confidence just looking at the damage/delay numbers.

[Banditman]

Yea, I like to consider damage / delay (DPS) myself.  The "Weapon Rating" is useless to me unless I know what the underlying formula is.

[Wandat]

<DIV>It looks like the Damage Rating is calculated by taking the weapons base damage minimum + maximum divided by delay.  I don't think I will even consider the Damage Rating when evaluating a weapon.</DIV>