STA vs AGI For Guardians

[DaCheat]

<DIV>Hi all,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  First time poster so try to take it easy one me k? I just had a very interesting discussion with a pally re the whole sta vs agi thang. He was convinced that for a tank agi was better for tanking ability than stam was. Now quite obviously being the good little guardian that I am, I chose STA at every possible point. And to be honest, I've never looked back. However the Pally seemed convinced that agi was better as more agi means ya gonna get hit less as well as apparently it increases your hit ratio. This raises another interesting point, in that I was always under the impression that your combat skills (slashing/piercing/crushing) determined your hit ratio and not your AGI... yet in response to this the pally stated that if ya hold your cursor over your agility stat, it comes up with the tooltip "High agitily hakes you harder to hit and more accurate". </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  Now I realise that as a tank, we're not overly interested in dps, yet of course we all know that hitting more often causes not only more dps but also assists procs on weapons to go off... thus contributing a non-trivial amount of hate to the tank. Hence this would seem to imply that chosing AGI would provide both increased AC as well as increasing your Hit ratio helping to maintain aggro. Where as STA simply provides the single benefit... Hit Points. I've also read on previous posts about this topic that STA does in fact scale. I believe that tuna-boo once posted that 1 STA at lvl 50 = 10hp... good chunk... would this outweigh the benefits of the equivalent amount of AGI at level 50? /shrug I dunno. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>  I guess to sum up I'll list what I believe to be the main pro's of chosing each option:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>STA</DIV> <DIV>------</DIV> <DIV>    - At 50 if you have chosen all the STA traits possible you'd have an extra few hundred hps (according to Tuna Boos scaling of 1 STA = 10hp)</DIV> <DIV>    - Having STA will help being mt on higher end raids / high level exp groups, where no amount of AC gained from AGI is going to stop you from getting hit anyway.</DIV> <DIV>    - STA provides hp which can help absorb both physical and magical damage, where as AGI only increases AC which is only effective against the former of these.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>AGI</DIV> <DIV>-----</DIV> <DIV>    - At 50 if you have chosen all the AGI traits and skills possible you'd have:</DIV> <DIV>        - More AC (unsure what the formula is and how much it would grant, possibly the equivalent?)</DIV> <DIV>        - More accuracy and hence hit mobs more often.</DIV> <DIV>    - Hitting mobs more often would increase your DPS... thereby increasing hate</DIV> <DIV>    - Hitting mobs more often would increase your chance to proc weapons... thereby increasing hate as well as providing any additional bonus that such weapons have</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I'd be interested to hear any comments / opinions that you all have on the matter, preferably from higher level guardians where the difference in stat scaling is more pronounced.</DIV> <DIV>   </DIV> <DIV>Kind Regards,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Koth</DIV> <DIV>39 Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Najena</DIV><p>Message Edited by DaCheat76 on <span class=date_text>03-20-2005</span> <span class=time_text>08:09 PM</span>

[Eal]

<DIV>               Min/Max values are usually only a concern against raid content and usually if you are raid buffed your agility and stamina are well over 300 points. So even if you spent 20 points on agility which I would be surprised if it affected avoidance by 1%, It would be overshadowed by the 150 points you were buffed by your group anyways.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>               Your biggest concern is surviving the initial attack and spikes in damage that may occur. The more hit points you have allow more time for your healers  to react. You should have three healers in your group and your hit points should be around 8k. Once you have killed the adds and the Raid mob is out of power your stats are no longer an issue. Its usually holding agro which is another problem.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tower</DIV> <DIV>50 lvl Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Legion/Najena</DIV>

[English Da Gua]

<P>  You can't avoid magic no matter how high your agility is.</P> <P>  Also, you have to remember, just like the int vs sta thread, you can only raise your agi so much choosing a different race and trainings. This usually amounts to less then 20 total. Now you can try and tailor your gear for more agi, but again, like the int vs sta thread, the reason you see the left side of most 50 guardians all in the same gear is for a reason. Only time you see something different here is if it is a master chest drop (SSB) or you have yet to get any ebon. </P> <P>   Personally, not to quote someone as I forgot who said it, but heals fizzle, criticals land, and you can't avoid magic with agi; these are all reasons I would never even consider agi. Even though we all had the chance to respec at least once, no one came here saying "I tested / choose agi and I find I hit way more and dodge far more" etc etc. This is more then likely because it is a negligible difference.</P> <P> Sta on the other hand, always is in play. </P> <P>    You MAY or MAY NOT avoid based on agi, you HAVE more hitpoints with more stamina... see the difference??</P> <P>   Anyway, until someone comes out with parsed numbers you will never know. But that being said, since as a guardian you will be the MT more often then not, and since you are not supposed to be an avoidance tank anyway, I would choose stamina.</P> <P>  We were branded from the on set that we were a mitigation tank, that will never change, and since we will always be the best mitigation tanks (with zerkers, only separated by our buffs) able to absorb more damage means more to me then the off chance I MIGHT dodge some # of attacks in a 10 min fight.</P> <P>   Look at this for example, lets say this was a 15 min fight...(just an example trying to make a point, this is not hard data)</P> <P>    Gaurdian A (all agi)  - Mob hits for 1k average, Mob AEs for 500 average. With your 20 more agi you dodge 10 more attacks in 15 min. Mob does 240k damage to you. You save 10k damage. Healers have to heal you for 240k damage. </P> <P>   Guardian B (all sta) -  (You inherently have lets say 200 more HPs) Mob hits the same, AEs the same, doing 250k damage to you. Each heal that healed you to full though gave an additional 200 HPs due to higher max.  Lets assume every 4 hits you are healed again. Thats 1 heal / 4k damage. That's 50 heals X 200 more HPs. 10k more damage absorbed. (I am just assuming AE / magic does 50k damage for reference, and not calculating the additional bonus you gain with more HPs vs agi since agi won't help you avoid this damage anyway).</P> <P>   So basically you both took the same amount of damage and cost the healers the same amount of power as a %.  Note, this ignores that AE damage you took, where obviously STA >>> AGI.</P> <P>   Thing is, agi might not always mean you dodge all those attacks, and sometimes you might dodge more. Sta is always the same, through and through. When someone comes here with raw data parsed out to show a difference, I might respec, but after the AGI nerf went through, I wouldn't give agi a second thought.</P><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>03-19-2005</span> <span class=time_text>05:56 AM</span>

[TunaBoo]

Sta has some king of sliding scale... sta 130-140 is giving me like 16 HP per sta. I raid buff over 350 tho and I know you get less HP per sta as you go up. That said, I do stats Sta -> Agi -> Str. I think this is the best way to maintank, at least for how my toon is set up. Damage spikes in raids are HUGE and I want the HP to live. If not maintanking im sure agi is great, but to maintank sta rocks. <div></div>

[Eal]

<DIV>Everyone has their own preference but I would have gone with Sta -> Str -> Agi.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Only because I am unsure of the exact affect of Agility. I also have a feeling this value will always change as SOE continuously looks for a balance.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I picked Strength over Agility because of the dual benefits. First one being the extra damage and hate drawn from the damage. Also, Strength is tied into our power. I can't remember off hand how much each point of strength offers for power but I do know its significant.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>That being said, you aren't going to notice much of a difference after you are raid buffed. Raiding has become more mechanics than skill. Biggest challenge will be knowing how to set up your raids. If you know what you are doing, you can tank mobs and rarely get hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Tower</DIV> <DIV>50 lvl Guardian</DIV> <DIV>Legion/Najena</DIV>

[Noah]

<P>I took Sta/ Hps on traits, I dont think I would chose different there.</P> <P>On items I have been leaning more to AGI vs Sta...  don't get me wrong, I will not sacrific a load of HPs for AGi.  I am a huge fan of AC.  I max it out on all pieces of equipt I can.  Example, Ruby Rings vs Refin Rhod Rings...  Less STA on Rhods but more AC net (like 20 more ac) for what... 1 sta?  13 hps?   For me AGI is huge right now since like Tuna said, you can get it buffed up pretty nice on a raid.  At the same time they are nerfing Shrug Off on test so no more 15000 AC for me <img src="/smilies/9d71f0541cff0a302a0309c5079e8dee.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />  </P> <P>AC - STA - AGI - HP - STR  for me atm. </P>

[Dashel]

I'm wondering if the coming separation of Avoidance / Mitigation in the AC value will alter anything.  Anyone know if AGI effects both, either, none?  I'm guessing it would certainly reflect avoidance, but perhaps Mitigation to a lesser degree also.  <span class="postbody"><span><blockquote><hr><span class="postbody"> *** Avoidance and Mitigation *** - Instead of displaying a single value to express your character's defensive capabilities, your Persona window now separates AC into Avoidance and Mitigation. - Avoidance represents your chance to avoid physical attacks. Mousing over the Avoidance value on your Persona window will show your overall chance to avoid attacks, and will indicate the value of your various avoidance-based skills and your shield if you have one equipped. - Mitigation indicates how well your armor will absorb incoming physical damage. Mousing over the Mitigation value on your Persona window will show your overall absorption percentage against attacks at your level. Examining a piece of armor will show its relative mitigation value based on level, quality, and type of armor. - Shields now display a Shield Factor to represent their relative usefulness. - Both Mitigation and Avoidance percentages are based on defending yourself against an average opponent of your level. You will tend to mitigate and avoid better against weaker opponents and worse against stronger ones. </span><hr></blockquote></span></span> <div></div>

[Qwindar]

I know I'm not level 50, but this is how I look at it: A tank with 350000 agi 350000 str and 0 hp is still a dead tank. I know some of you may laugh at me for saying this, but I learned how to tank by being a Ranger in EQ1. I learned a lot from the friendly Rangers back at eqrangers.com. On one of the threads about tanking, similiar questions about this were asked and one of the top notch Rangers put it in the above terms, it stuck with me ever since. I re-equiped my Ranger to be more hp oriented and it work, a lot, so from then on I look at it this way HP = STA > ALL. <div></div>

[sylvo]

<DIV>Not meaning to play devils advocate or anything just want to try and see a different side of the same coin :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the folks throwing random numbers around :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>35000000agi and 350000 ac and 2hp = if you never get hit you will never die - 3500000hp and 0 agi your going to die eventually</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the guy talking about uber mobs and comparing the effects of 200 more hp's vs the extra agi to not get hit for 10k less over a fight. -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not getting hit is more mana effective for the healers - and from personal experience (but having never been on the tanking end of an ubermob) I am never at full health unless its pre-pull so that 200hps would only count once for me. I know people say we are mitigation tanks not avoidance but does it hurt to be able to do both ?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously because of the ridiculous way stats are distributed over items its usually pretty plain when something is "better" I havent had to make a real "choice" yet when it comes to upgrades.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying that either way is right/wrong - hopefully the upcoming ac display changes will give a better indication.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Farhane</DIV> <DIV>Tides of Destiny</DIV> <DIV>Guk Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Uumuuanu]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sylvore wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not meaning to play devils advocate or anything just want to try and see a different side of the same coin :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the folks throwing random numbers around :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>35000000agi and 350000 ac and 2hp = if you never get hit you will never die - 3500000hp and 0 agi your going to die eventually</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> <HR> </DIV></BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV>Haha,  you will get hit, its called magic,  while Mr Agility is laying on the floor wiggling with his agility maxed, the guy with the HP is standing there taking it.  Simple fact is that HP have always been better then avoidance due to magic attacks and other unavoidable factors not related to melee damage.</DIV>

[Wulfe]

<DIV>10 more agi - going from 102 to 112 at lv48 gives me 0.6% more avoidance. Thats not very much imo..</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[BetaMaster]

<P>I picked all sta/hp stuff and now am going for the agi stuff to fill in the other side of our tanking role as Guardians...</P> <P>Now... When I Solo, I can take on blue^^ and they won't touch me... maybe hit me for 200 once during the fight because of avoidance/mitigation... but when I fight a caster I'll die on a green^^ cause those blasts beat the [expletive ninja'd by Faarbot] outa me.  Spells are a big thing to keep in mind at all times.</P> <P>Btw... why can't 1000resists block lvl 30 mobs casting... what kinda resists actually work for mobs? lol</P>

[English Da Gua]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> sylvore wrote:<BR> <DIV>Not meaning to play devils advocate or anything just want to try and see a different side of the same coin :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the folks throwing random numbers around :</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>35000000agi and 350000 ac and 2hp = if you never get hit you will never die - 3500000hp and 0 agi your going to die eventually</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>To the guy talking about uber mobs and comparing the effects of 200 more hp's vs the extra agi to not get hit for 10k less over a fight. -</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not getting hit is more mana effective for the healers - and from personal experience (but having never been on the tanking end of an ubermob) I am never at full health unless its pre-pull so that 200hps would only count once for me. <FONT color=#ffff00>I know people say we are mitigation tanks not avoidance but does it hurt to be able to do both ?</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Obviously because of the ridiculous way stats are distributed over items its usually pretty plain when something is "better" I havent had to make a real "choice" yet when it comes to upgrades.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Not saying that either way is right/wrong - hopefully the upcoming ac display changes will give a better indication.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Farhane</DIV> <DIV>Tides of Destiny</DIV> <DIV>Guk Server</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE> <P> Cuz then they would make a class called Gonks or Bruadians.</P> <P> Just make a cleric and then max his str and get all str gear. Now you can hit harder and not heal as much.</P> <P> A guardian IS a mitigation tank. That means we excel at mitigation. If you try and max something you are going to be lacking elsewhere, agreed?</P> <P> So you can either maximize your strengths, or maximize another classes strengths. There is a reason a majority of the guardian population feels Sta >> Agi. It mainly comes from experiences and looking at the facts of what benefits a MITIGATION tank more. Plus, you have to remember the agi nerf basically destroyed the ancillary benefits of agi over sta for a guardian.</P> <P> Like Wulf said, he gains 0.6% avoidance per 10 agi at his lvl. That means he has the CHANCE (not even guaranteed) to avoid 6 attacks per 1000 attacks. So what does that equate to, perhaps 6-12 hits he avoids per raid fight, if that? Personally I would rather have 200-300 more HPs constantly.</P> <P> You also say you are rarely ever full health when you fight. I find this hard to believe. I am often healed up to 90%+ and then drop from there. Now I do not often hit 100% health, but there are times I do. So saying that 200 extra HPs only matters on pull is speculation, and to be honest, wrong. Now I agree the full benefit will likely not be reached often, but an extra 10-25% of that could be healed, so it does add up.</P> <P> Again, it isn't black and white, but a hybrid will always be weaker then a pure class at certain things. You can read the monk thread locked here to see. The more spread out you try to be, the less effective you are compared to someone who specializes in one field. ><</P><p>Message Edited by English Da Guard on <span class=date_text>03-21-2005</span> <span class=time_text>02:25 PM</span>

[ThramFalc]

AGI adds a little bit to the parry part of avoidance.  Thats all well and good but if your defense is high enough that your base is 90+ then parry has a very small effect.  If your parry is say 20% then its only 20% of the remaining 10% for a total effect on avoidance of about 2% (about .1% from AGI alone).  Against a very high level mob where your avoidance is still rather low, AGI will provide a noticible benefit of a few %.  For soloing blues or grouping against white where you aren't getting hit much already, there is really no point to AGI.