Think outside the box.

[AgentAce]

<DIV>I posted this in another thread, but it was ignored because people just wanted to rant, so I figured I would repost it here as I want to know what people think of about it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>" <DIV>I dont think people have really grasped the definitive roles of Gaurdians and Zerkers yet, and wont until there are level 50 raids and you see how things really work. Now, I am going to think outside the box here, plz dont shoot me.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>First thing everyone needs to realize is that BOTH berserkers and Gaurdians are warriors, which, essentially makes them both tanks. When it comes to defense, Zerkers dodge more, Guardians can take more. Now,  if this was everquest one that would automatically make the Gaurdian the tank, but there is a difference, and tht is combat speed. Ask any cleric who played both games, or any tank for that matter. The dmg from both NPC's and PC's are put out A LOT FASTER. I think I crapped myself when I was level 17 with 800 hp taking 300+ dmg, as a Gaurdian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, there are TWO types of ways mobs deal melee dmg. (Magic dmg is irrelivent at this point)</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Very fast, medium dmg hits.</DIV> <DIV>2) Not so fast, very hevy dmg hits.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Again, I have not tested the following theory, it is open for debate . . .</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think it would be better if you use berskers to tank the fast hitters, and the gaurdians to tank the heavy hitters. Both equally important in different situations. Why? When there are many attacks comming, avoidance would be fairly important in my opinion. This does NOT make a guardian useless in this situation. Infact, I shouldnt say zerkers will tank better here . . . i should say it would be better served to have a zerker tanked with a gaurdian back using his abilities. For those few times a zerker does get hit duing the encounter, the hit point heavy guardian can suck the dmg, or parry it all together for him.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now, some might think "Wouldnt it make sense then for a zerker to tank the heavy hitters as well, as he can avoid the horrible blows" No. At that point you are gambleing. With a gaurdian, you KNOW he is getting hit, but he can take 3 or 4 hits. With a zerker, yeah he will dodge a lot more but, if  he gets unlucky and takes 2 hits in a row, he is gone. So there a gaurdian would serve better.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I hope I made my points clear, it was a little hard to explain without examples. Thoughts? "</DIV></DIV>

[TunaBoo]

Basic idea is warriors tank tons of mobs better, monk + sham tank single mobs better.In any cause, I have faith in guardian <img src="/smilies/8a80c6485cd926be453217d59a84a888.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" />

[AgentAce]

<DIV>Wow Someone gave me one star because I tried to think of somthing different? Oh plz forgive me for being orginal.</DIV>

[Thi]

Well, if Zerkers avoid hits more than Guardians, that's news to me. Not saying they do, or don't, I simply don't know. I havn't played a Zerker, probably won't anytime soon.MY interpretation of the classes, is that a Guardian has less DPS and can maybe take hits a bit better (he IS a 'Guardian' afterall). Zurkers have a bit more DPS and probably don't mitigate like a Guardian does. Again, these are assumptions.A Guardian's DPS < a Berserker. If that is INDEED true, and SOE is striving for balance, then the Guardian SHOULD be able to mitigate damage better, or hold aggro better, or have the best Arts to keep mobs from hitting group members (Sentinel for example). From what I've seen, mostly all of the Guardian's Arts are geared towards keeping aggro, absorbing damage, and keeping damage off of party members. That's exactly what I want from my Guardian. If I wanted DPS, I'd have played a caster, scout, zurker...etc.Not saying I'm right or wrong, but at the high end levels, I would be surprised if a Guardian was not the tank of choice for the toughest mobs and raid targets. In EQ1 (and I don't need to be reminded this isn't EQ1) Warriors were the tank of choice for raid targets. They simply had the abilities to take the most damage. Could a SK/Pally tank a large mob? Of course! Nowhere nearly as efficiently however.I don't care if a Guardian has the lowest DPS in the game, he probably should. I could care less if I did virtually NO damage. I wanted to play the Guardian to take damage and keep it away from my party members. Can Zerkers do this, of course! Can Pallys/SKs do it? I would sure hope so. But, Pallys/SKs, even Zurkers get a wider range of Arts/Spells than a Guardian does. To balance that, the Guardian SHOULD be stronger in some areas. And, since the class is called GUARDIAN, one would think he can take the most damage, or keep damage off of other players the best. Berserkers are not inferior, nor are Pallys/SKs. They're simply different./flame on (I'm sure)

[a6eaq]

<DIV>Here is my way of thinking outside the box... I think Guardians can tank and should if there is no other fighter class in the group.  Remember that the groups in EQ2 are more dynamic so you can mix up the groups with numerous combinations and be successful, this was not really the case in EQ1.  But I think that the real role of a Guardian is to protect.  As a lvl 21 Guardian I look at my skills and I see a lot of skills that are designed to take damage away from another player.  Hmmmmm if we are taking damage away from someone, stay with me here, unless it is AE spells they are and must be... getting hit.  That means that THEY have AGRO, whether that be from a single mob or a mob that attacks as a group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Now this can be from a caster pulling the mob so of course they will have agro to start with. In this case we take some damage away from them until we can get agro off them.  This obviously keeps them alive long enough to allow us to accomplish that task then tank. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Maybe our ever important healers take agro by healing.  We use intervene and other skills to protect that super important part of any group.  Then like above we keep beating on the mob until it turns on us and we slaughter it.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are numorous other situations that I have been in that allow another player to take agro.  Do I get upset or mad and whine about Sony not making one sloe TANK.  NO WAY!  I can do a ton of good in any group if I am not tanking.  I bet that any Guardian that cries about his role has no idea how to use the entire range of our skills.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Because Hold the Line is an awesome way to get an keep agro.  If you cannot get/keep agro, read your skill discriptions and you might just discover that there are numerous ways to get/keep agro if you understand your skills!  This game is about balance and frankly I love it.  As a monk in EQ1 I hated pulling, beating on mob, run, pull, beat on mob, run pull, FD, split, pull one, etc.  I could not solo for crap!  I could deal out tons of damage but could take none.  In this game, there are lots of roles we can take depending on how we form our groups.  That is balance and it is better for the game.  Without it, we fall into the same Tank, slower, healer, dps crap we had in EQ1. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I think you have to think outside the box to explore EVERY aspect of our classes.  When we do this, we will truely have fun and enjoy the world of Norrath.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Demolitio]

<DIV>So basically what you're saying is that Guardians should only tank if there's no other figher classes (Berserkers) in the group.  If there is, then the guardian is to fulfill a 'buff' role on the zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So essentially what you're saying is that Guardians are second rate tanks, whose slot should be filled by a more 'useful' class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[MrBulwark]

<DIV>Since this is a "think outside the box" thread, here is something we may want to think about.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Could it be designed that Berserkers are better at pulling agro, but Guardians are better at withstanding agro?  ie, a berserker will be able to pull agro away from a healer faster, but a guardian will require less heals once they get the agro?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Both are very seprate rolls, but they are both tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If there are 2 tanks in a group one of them will always end up being the secondary tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Does it matter if we are the primary or secondary tank?  Should it?  Are we only in it for some sort of "glory" because we are "prinary" tank?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Would a group want a tank that can pull agro faster or a tank that can live longer?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Barruk]

A very wise warrior (from EQ1) once told me something that I think applies to EQ2 even more than it did in EQ1:"A warrior doesn't take aggro from the group. The group gives the warrior aggro."Simply put, if you are grouped with people who are hell-bent on getting aggro, then there is a good chance (particularly if they are a damage class) they will take it. The idea is for these classes to understand their abilities, and ride the fine line of dealing damage while not getting the attention of the mob at hand, so that the healers don't blow mana inefficiently.Its about working as a team.

[Demolitio]

<DIV>But with the current state of things, Zerkers are to be the primary tank, and Guardians are a secondary tank due to the aggro issues.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets say Healer takes aggro</DIV> <DIV>Zerker pulls aggro off healer</DIV> <DIV>By the time the Guardian can take aggro off the zerker, the mob is near dead.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I personally don't care who can hit harder, who can take the better hit, or who looks most like Pee Wee Herman.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All I care about is hate producing abilities.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I want to be secondary tank because I have a choice.  Not because it's my design.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Aggro should be equal in my opinion between the two classes.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our higher mitigation offsets a zerker's DPS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Why should they have superior aggro abilities as well?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I know it's theoretically too early to tell, since there aren't many 35+ guardians/zerkers out there.  So I don't know what the higher end looks like.  But in the mid range, it does look bad.</DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Demolitions wrote:<BR> <DIV>So basically what you're saying is that Guardians should only tank if there's no other figher classes (Berserkers) in the group.  If there is, then the guardian is to fulfill a 'buff' role on the zerker.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>So essentially what you're saying is that Guardians are second rate tanks, whose slot should be filled by a more 'useful' class?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <P>And who ever said Guardians are always the primary tank?  SK / Paladins / Monks / Bruisers / Berserkers / Guardians are all tanks.  None of them should be the primary tank at all times, that is not how the archtype system was designed.  If you believe the Guardian should be the one and only real tank go back to EQ1.  </P> <P>Can Guardians tank?  Yes.  Can Guardians help others tank better?  Yes.  Are Guardians guaranteed the main tank role because they are Guardians?  No.  </P> <P>Yes, I am a Berserker.  No I do not think I should tank all the time.  Its all about the equipment.</P>

[Belce]

<DIV>Its also about class skill set too.  Guardians drop dps in favor of defense, when guardians use alot of their skills they become hard to hit.  Zerkers drop defense to gain dps, that is basically what goin zerk does and it is tied in with many of the zerkers skills.  The difference in AC between a guardian tanking and a zerker tanking is a couple hundred points with equal gear, or about 20% in the low 20's.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a class is going to be dumping defense to maintain agro, they need to have better than even defense to justify having agro from a class that can improve defense while maintaining agro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>This isn't EQ, but the people that made this game come from the company that is overall very happy with the combat system there.  When it comes to agro, the best place for it has to be worked for and abided by the group, as an earlier poster said, that agro is given by the group and not taken by the tank.   They don't want a situation where the best tank creates a situation of no risk for the encounter.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While in a standard exp group any of the 6 tank classes are just fine and if you have more than 1 overall it won't make much difference for the effort, when you first see that mob with the 3 group rating and bring your 3 groups for it you won't be asking the zerker to drop defense to keep agro on it, you won't be banking on the monk to be missed, you will have the guardian doing what guardians do.  Guardians can maintain agro with a small dps input and with their skills maintain that taking consistent damage for the encounter.  </DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belce wrote:<BR> <DIV>Its also about class skill set too.  Guardians drop dps in favor of defense, when guardians use alot of their skills they become hard to hit.  Zerkers drop defense to gain dps, that is basically what goin zerk does and it is tied in with many of the zerkers skills.  The difference in AC between a guardian tanking and a zerker tanking is a couple hundred points with equal gear, or about 20% in the low 20's.  </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033></FONT> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If a class is going to be dumping defense to maintain agro, they need to have better than even defense to justify having agro from a class that can improve defense while maintaining agro. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000>Who is dumping defense to get agro?  Guardians and Berserkers (more then likely the other 4 fighter archtypes as well) have skills which increase defense at the cost of offense.  If you are refering to Blood Lust, that skill is broken in my eyes.  Every hit = berserker = buff = buff in fight = taunt = agro.</FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0000></FONT> </DIV> <DIV>This isn't EQ, but the people that made this game come from the company that is overall very happy with the combat system there.  When it comes to agro, the best place for it has to be worked for and abided by the group, as an earlier poster said, that agro is given by the group and not taken by the tank.   They don't want a situation where the best tank creates a situation of no risk for the encounter.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033>I have to disagree here.  The developers did not like how the system worked out in EQ1, that is why there is no holy trinity.  All classes can fill the roll of their base class, in an exp group or raid.  All fighters can tank, regardless of what others believe.  All Healers can heal.</FONT></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>While in a standard exp group any of the 6 tank classes are just fine and if you have more than 1 overall it won't make much difference for the effort, when you first see that mob with the 3 group rating and bring your 3 groups for it you won't be asking the zerker to drop defense to keep agro on it, you won't be banking on the monk to be missed, you will have the guardian doing what guardians do.  Guardians can maintain agro with a small dps input and with their skills maintain that taking consistent damage for the encounter.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><FONT color=#ff0033>Again I have to disagree.  Guardians can tank; however, they are not the only choice.  If Guardians are the only ones that can tank raid encounters, then the archtype system has failed.  SOE has stated again and again that they want all fighter classes to tank equally but differently.  I will believe the developers over anyperson on the message board, until the time what the developers have stated can be proven wrong.  As of now everything is hypothetical and wishful thinking.</FONT></DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Belce,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I said it once and I will say it again.  This is not EQ1.  Why are you stuck in the mentality that the Guardian must be the end all be all of the fighter archtype?  Look at the skills given to the guardian.  Increasing Group armor, decreasing enemy damage, shielding others, and more.  Each fighter archtype has benefits as well as disadvantages.  Guardians are able to prevent others from getting hurt, is this their main role?  No; however, it is an ability they have.  I have never said, nor will I ever say, I am a Berserker I am the only main tank.  There are situations for every encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are fighting a heavy hitting boss mob and a guardian, bruiser, defiler are in the group (along with 3 others).  The fight will go much smoother if the Bruiser tanks and you guard the Bruiser.  Not only do the wards benefit the Bruiser more, the damage they do not avoid can be shared with the Guardian.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If you are fighting a group of casters and a Berserker, Guardian, Druid, along with 3 others are in a group.  Do you tell the Berserker to wait before fighting or guard the berserker?  You need to do as much damage in the shortest amount of time to prevent being AoE damaged by spells.  If the Guardian wants to main tank the casters, he will be using more time taunting and buffing then dealing damage.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I am NOT saying Guardians are only good for back-up tanks.  I am saying how the archtype system works every tank will shine in different situations.  If all you want to do is press the taunt key you are playing the wrong game.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>The guardian can stifle the casters to prevent and limit spell damage, each time the zerker goes zerk their defense drops.  Zerkers have warrior buffs that increase defense at the cost of offense and a couple of them after 20, please review the zerker abilities.   It is better to reply with some facts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The holy trinity here?  No and thats not what I said either.  The aspect of the combat system that they like is, groups benefit from having members from each archtype, that groups need to work together to get best results.  What is easiest to achieve is not the best.  </DIV>

[x]

<DIV> When I made my guardian I knew what to expect. I reviewed his skill list and understood that he would be buffing , debuffing, intervening. Not once was I worried that another class could out taunt me. If the group decides that I am going to be main tank and the beserker keeps pulling taunt off me, then the person thats playing the beserker is not a team player or doesnt know how to play inside the group.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If the group decides to make another tank the MT then I am just as happy using my buffs to lesson the damage done to the main or fill the role of secondary. MT or secondary are equally important in any group. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> I come to the boards to learn and research for knowledge about my class, tricks of the trade or new things I havent tried. I dont think I have seen more than 1 or 2 positive threads started about anything.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> If what the guardian is suppossed to be is a damage taker, then that is what we are. whether from the front or the back intervening we are bar none the damage taker. Now think about this. We are the true main tank. In the end game I bet without guardians using thier intervene skills on the avoidance tank, raid mobs will be very, very, very tuff to take.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> Fero Tox server</DIV>

[Chog]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> Belce wrote:<BR> <DIV>The guardian can stifle the casters to prevent and limit spell damage, each time the zerker goes zerk their defense drops.  Zerkers have warrior buffs that increase defense at the cost of offense and a couple of them after 20, please review the zerker abilities.   It is better to reply with some facts. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The holy trinity here?  No and thats not what I said either.  The aspect of the combat system that they like is, groups benefit from having members from each archtype, that groups need to work together to get best results.  What is easiest to achieve is not the best.  </DIV> <P><BR> <HR> </P> <P> </P> <P>Belce,</P> <P>Stifle is available at level 31.6 and an AoE version is available at level 36.  Since most Guardians / Berserkers are still in the 20's I was using skills available to level 20ish groups.  Hence no Stifle.</P> <P>Berserkers lose defense when in berserk mode <faints>.  Now on to reality, who ever said that going berserk did not lower your defense?  Berserkers have skills which require them to get hit to deal damage starting at level 22 with Fury and ending at level 50 with Furious Counter.  Yes Berserkers lose defense while berserk; however, we do not have to be berserk to tank.  If we are tanking, we have otehr skills which allow us to do damage while being hit.</P> <P>I am confused by your second to last sentence in the first paragraph.  But I will agree, facts are a good thing.</P> <P>No you never said the holy trinity, what you did say was: <HR> </P> <P>Belce wrote:</P> <P>This isn't EQ, but the people that made this game come from the company that is overall very happy with the combat system there. </P> <P> <HR> </P></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>In EQ1 there was 1 tank and 1 healer.  In EQ2 there are 6 tanks and 6 healers.  The developers of EQ2 did NOT like the combat system of EQ1, that is why every archtype can fill the role of their base class.  That is why there are locked encounters.  That is why there are level limits on equipment.  That is why buffs only work within a group.  The developers changed the combat system of EQ2 because they knew how broken the combat system of EQ1 was.</P> <P>I will agree with you though, groups do benefit from having one of each archtype and they need to work together to get the best results they can.  However, those principles are not derived from EQ1.  There where no Archtypes in EQ1, get the holy trinity and everything else was filler.  Teamwork existed in EQ1; yet, zerg tactics which required no teamwork also existed.</P> <P>My point is and always will be:</P> <P>There are six fighters in EQ2.  If one fighter stands above the rest as the best then the archtype system has failed.<BR></P>

[Belce]

<DIV>Which special by a berserker requires to be hit to cause berserk?  I have listed the 20 to 30 ones below</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Berserker<BR></STRONG>20 - Focus Rage : Go Berserk (Attack speed and strength buff for reduced defense)<<<you go berserk, no hit required<BR>20 - Fury of Fire : Fire visual effect<BR>21 - Blood Rage : Each attack may trigger an AE attack, costs health to cast<<<not zerk, but hit required<BR>21.6 - Furious Onslaught : AE attack + chance to Berserk<<<no hit required<BR>22 - Fury : Chance to attack back when hit<<<not berserk</DIV> <DIV>22.6 - Enrage : Taunt + chance to Berserk<<<once again, no hit required, maybe zerk<BR>23 - Bloodlust : Group offense buff + chance to berserk if anyone in group is hit<<<does not require a hit to zerker<BR>23 - Sunder : Taunt + AE knockdown<BR>24 - Battle Chant : Party STR buff<BR>24.6 - Raging Strike : Attack which has chance to make you Berserk but you do less damage<<<no hit on zerker required<BR>25 - Rescue : Increase hate position by 1<BR>25.6 - Maul : Attack which also lowers target's defense + stun<BR>26 - Stifled Rage : Increases AC but reduces attack<BR>26.6 - Havoc : Group AC + STR buff<BR>27 - Press : Shield bash + offense debuff on target<BR>28 - Berserker Barrage : Front/Side AE attack<<<not berzerk or requiring a hit<BR>28.6 - Vicious Blow : Slashing Dot + chance to Berserk<<<no hit required<BR>29 - Coup de Grace : Attack that makes you Berserk when enemy killed<<<they die, maybe you go berserk, no hit required<BR>30 - Weapon Shield : Parry skill buff</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><STRONG>Guardian<BR></STRONG>20 - Sentinel : Sometimes absorb all damage a single party member would take<BR>20 - Hand of the Just : Glowing hand visual effect<BR>21 - Allay : Allow the Guardian to block and parry sometimes for a party member<BR>21.6 - Bury : AE attack which also puts a crushing DoT on one of them<BR>22 - Slam : High damage attack<BR>22.6 - Shouting Cry : Taunt + AE damage debuff<BR>23 - Guardian’s Call : Group offense buff + Guardian parry buff<BR>24 - Call of Command : Group defense buff<BR>24.6 - Taunting Challenge : Reduces damage + increased hate generation<BR>25 - True Strike : Attack which ignores enemy AC<BR>25.6 - Ruin : Attack + offense debuff + slashing DoT<BR>26.6 - Battle Cry : Group AC + STA buff<BR>27 - Bull Rush : Stun + knockdown target (Requires shield)<BR>28 - Iron Will : STA buff<BR>28.6 - Maim : Slashing DoT + attack speed debuff<BR>29 - Shatter : Attack + Slashing resist debuff<BR>30 - Desperate Flurry : Attack speed buff while draining power</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Are these accurate, these descriptions?  Please let me know if any are incorrect, they are what I base my thinking on.  There is 1 attack on that lists a need to hit requirement for a chance to go berserk, it is Bloodlust which requires a hit to anyone in the group to go zerk.  There are quite a few that don't have a chance for a zerk to zerk and no reason why I can think that a zerk can be not the MT in a group.  Can a zerk zerk in a group and not be the MT, sure can, there is no reason for a zerk to not zerk in a group and fulfill their role by providing good dps.  Zerks only cause trouble with agro management when they try to zerk from the get go, its the same with any fighter class, including guardian.  Any fighter that supports the group's plan for attack will do well, regardless of task provided if they put themselves to that task.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When and where would you want a guardian over any of the other 5 tanks?  When it is hard.  Equal lvl, equal gear, the guardian will have better hp and ac than any other fighter class, plus skills to help maintain agro for the fight.  We are talking raid enounters or trying orange^^ multi group mobs and not what will be 99% of your time in game.  Can a zerk tank in that situation, sure can, but he won't be using zerk to help keep that agro from the start.  When I talked about what guardians can do best, it was with regards to these very challenging situations and not in reference to an exp group.  I feel they are very different encounters from normal and the guardian's superior ac and hp will be most important in those.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What EQ2 likes about the EQ combat system is class interdependence and that is why a group does better with someone from each of the 4 archtypes.  The trouble with EQ is that interdependence is shallow compared to EQ2.  It needs to be pointed out, that trinity did not apply to exp groups there either.  Smart pulling and using a paladin or shadow knight for quick agro with any healer class did well for exp and was preferred to the maybe agro of the warrior.  </DIV>

[Chog]

<DIV>Belce,</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The skills I use at level 23 which require me to get hit to use, note I never said I can only become berserk when hit:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>20-Focus Rage.  Costs 1 concentraton point to use, long duration buff.  Has a chance to zerk when hit.</DIV> <DIV>22-Fury.  3 minute buff that gives a chance to attack back when hit.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The level 23-Blood Lust is a 3 minute buff.  If the skill is not cast while active on the berserker, it incurs a 90 second recast timer from when it dropped from the berserker.  So if you want the Berserker to zerk in combat he cannot cast the buff on the whim, but must have it maintained at all times.  Said it once, will say it again.  Blood Lust is broken with how much agro it creates.  Zerking = buff = buffing in combat = taunt = bad.  Unless a tank is doing nothing but taunting and buffing the Zerker will grab agro from the main tank without using any styles.  This is not how it should be in my eyes :smileyindifferent:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>All of the other skills you listed as having a chance to make the berserker go berserk do not work from what I have read on the zerker forums.  If this is true or not I have no clue, I am not of the level to test them out yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Let us look at the Guardian skill list...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>20-Sentinel => Protects a party member.</DIV> <DIV>21-Allay => Protects a party member.</DIV> <DIV>24-Call of Command => Increases defense of party</DIV> <DIV>25.6-Ruin => offense debuff <attack></DIV> <DIV>26.6-Battle Cry => Increases AC and Stamina of party.</DIV> <DIV>28.6-Maim => attack speed debuff <attack></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Six skills (not including taunts) within 10 levels that allow a Guardian class to help the group from taking damage while not being the main tank.  That is the role of the Guardian, damage prevention.  And the Guardians can do this without being the main tank.  There is no statement made by SOE saying all fighter can do there job except Guardians are the best at it.  SOE created the game trying to prevent the must have "X" class to do "X" encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>When would I want a Guardian over any other tank?  Never.  If I need a Guardian because I cannot do my MAIN JOB then the archtype system has failed.  There is no argument there, if SOE wants all fighters to tank <differently but equally> and Guardians are required on raids, then the archtype system has failed.  That is my entire argument.  Raid level or not, if a Monk / Brusier / Paladin / etc cannot tank for any encounter (including raid level)then the system has failed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Every fighter archtype has multiple roles.  Ther are skills that can be used while taking damage to help the party out, and there are skills that can be used to help the party out while not being the main tank.  As a zerker I get situational attacks that I can not use if I am the main tank; however, I also get skills that can only be used while I am getting hit.  Knowing when to use these skills will make the difference between a button masher and a good player.  This was the entire point behind the post being created.  Think outside of the box.  Guardians are a fighter class that increases the defense / AC / stamina / health of the group.  Guardians are not the main tank because they are Guardians.  Get out of the mindset that only one fighter type can tank the raid creatures, this is not EQ1.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>

[K.U.K.A.]

its amazing that you people sit here and even think Zerkers are better tanks than Guards. The only way a Guardian has trouble keeping aggro is if he doesn't know what he is doing, or someone in the group has something to prove and try to steal aggro. DPS doesnt even come close to the taunt that the taunting skills do. We all start out as warriors, then you go zerker or guardian. One route = dps, the other = tanking. If at high end raids Zerkers are better tanks, then SoE **mods 4 teh win!!1!**ed up. But judging from the game so far, I doubt that is the case.

[God_of_Avalon]

<DIV>"The only way a Guardian has trouble keeping aggro is if he doesn't know what he is doing"</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>K.U.K.A. you obvously dont know what you are talking about and you are a newbie to EQ2.  Bloodlust will out taunt a guardian no matter what he does.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Think before you post.</DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>According to your standards then Chog, the archtype system has failed.  </DIV>

[sto]

This game is nothing like EQ1. Someone that plays this game wouldn't "get" EQ1 at all. They are worlds apart. That said, we shouldn't really discuss EQ1. It is a non-factor.One thing is very much like EQ1 -- the players that CAME from EQ1. That is the only similarity. A bunch of EQ1 players still hung up on the MT concepts of EQ1. There is some glory with being called "MT". I, personally, do not get it. I didn't "MT" in EQ1, and I don't expect I'll be "MT" here either. It's boring. It's a dull concept from 4 years ago. It's a dull concept now. It'll be a dull concept until time stops.I don't care if I'm the "MT" in a group. I care that if things get crazy I am able to keep my group members protected. Protector! Guardian! Odd those words are synonymous. No matter who's tanking every "tank" can do their job. If any of the other fighter classes are tanking that doesn't make you any less of a GUARDIAN. They've given you enough depth to adapt.Most pulls worthy of expending any energy towards involve multiple NPC's. With that in mind, doesn't it follow that a guardian is well equipped to deal with that situation WITHOUT breaking mez? I think they are. I think that is what makes them valuable. No matter whether they're the MA (MA is NOT the same as MT) or not, they can reduce the collateral damage. It is the collateral damage that we are best equipped to deal with in ALL situations. So, if you want to think "outside the box", then drop the MT mentality, and switch to the MA mentality.MA is "Main Assist". The MA should not be tanking. In the ideal world the MA will be able to switch targets at will while the rest of the group STAYS on the last announced target. The DPS is focused on the target while the MA chooses the next target (at the right moment). That puts the group at peak efficiency. No down time between mobs.Last night I had an incredible group. Guardian, Monk, Ranger, Druid, Cleric, Shaman. We ripped through the canyon in Thunder Steppe with ease. Many times dealing with an added mob or two. I wasn't always tanking. But I was always filling my role. It was pretty much non-stop pulling. Very little "med time". And no designated "tank" -- just 6 people working together to beat each encounter.Stop with the ME ME ME. Start with the US US US.I got tired of this discussion in EQ1, and it's already grinding on my nerves here. There's NOTHING wrong with the guardian class. But there does seem to be a problem with some of the people who have chosen to play guardians.Regards,Daevin IronbladeGuardian, Butcherblock Server

[Belce]

<DIV>Thank you Daevin, well said.  Playing within the team doing what is best for the team is always most important.  </DIV>

[AgentAce]

<DIV>After reading all these i think people are getting to hung up on the idea that tanking is the main job of the gaurdian, therefore they think that gaurdians should be the main tank. I dont think tanking is anymore the main job of a gaurdian, as tanking is the main job for a berserker. Its just one of the things they can do. Both warriors, infact all fighters CAN TANK. Warriors do it better than other archetypes, except maybe crusaders, but they all can still tank.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Lets again look over a gaurdians abilites.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1) Maintaining aggro</DIV> <DIV>2) Lessening dmg to self</DIV> <DIV>3) Taking dmg from groupmates</DIV> <DIV>4) Stopping all dmg from groupmates</DIV> <DIV>5) Reducing dmg mobs deal</DIV> <DIV>6) Increasing groups general melee proformence</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Two out of six of the types of abilities gaurdians get are tanking abilties . . . . aggro and lessening self dmg. 2 of 6. I think the MAIN role of a gaurdian is to lessen the damage that is inflicted upon the group, thereby gaurding them. Gaurdians ARE MAIN TANKS! But so are zerkers, paladins, ect. Tanking is just one more thing they all can do, ontop of there main jobs.</DIV>

[Makkaio]

<DIV>The roles of zerkers and guardians are different in different situations.  If you are out XPing and you play the guardian and zerker team right, you can move through mobs a LOT faster.  A great tactic that gets away from all this "who's the best tank" bull, is to have the guardian pull agro for the first 2/3 of an encounter, then have the zerker kick his skills in to finish off the mobs.  You'll find that it is less stressful on the healer, you'll be able to hunt higher conning mobs and do it will less downtime.  Stop thinking about who is better and start thinking like a team with your group.  That's thinking outside of the box.</DIV><p>Message Edited by Makkaio on <span class=date_text>12-13-2004</span> <span class=time_text>09:02 AM</span>

[AgentAce]

<DIV>Could you please explain how that benefits to switch tanks? I am not saying it doesnt, I am just curious.</DIV>

[Makkaio]

<DIV>I don't have hard numbers, but I'm planning to as soon as one of my guildies gets their zerker up to a good level.  The zerker I was grouping with was not from my guild.  We were working on some AQ3 stuff.  The tag-team approach seemed to work in several ways:</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>1.  Agro management.  Pretty simple.  I was responsible for and held it until about 2/3 of the way through an encounter.   No wondering where things went wrong because everyone was competing or unknowingly doing things that pulled agro.  The zerker used a limited number of specials to save on PP....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>2.  PP management.  I could lay on the specials and concentrate on guarding the group knowing that the zerker was going to take over by the end of encounter.  The zerker could then do his thing with a good amount of power left.  The zerker could finish the fights faster than if I had stayed the MT.  I must say, the rate at which the encounters were going, we didn't waste as much power doing the tag as we did if just one of us was the MT.  That meant less downtime.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>3.  HP management.  The healer with us, a fury I believe, said it was a lot easier to heal us when we used the tag team method.  The fury could concentrate on one of us at a time and not have to guess where the agro was going.  The healer also said that a bloodlust zerker was harder to keep healed for the duration of the fight than it was to keep my guardian healed for the duration.  When we did the tag method, the fury said it wasn't difficult to switch the heal and focus on the zerker.  The fury also had more PP left at the end of an encounter.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The flow of the group worked better when we came up with a good tactic.  The zerker kicking in bloodrage at the right time was really like a second wind during an encounter.  Everyone had a role and played it well.  Like I said, I don't have hard numbers, but I will try out more of the guardian/zerker tag team soon.</DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>It does sound like a good idea and not too hard to work with.  </DIV>

[Kir]

<DIV>usually and this is level dependent this is what my guildies and I do.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I play a 25 guardian, he played a 27 berserker, with 2 healers in group and 2 dps.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I pull.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>He tanks.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I cast Guardians Call, Call of command before pull.</DIV> <DIV>He casts his upgrade to Battle Tactics, forgot the name, and bloodlust.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I run the mobs to him as he is casting his buffs, he instantly grabs aggro.  I wait for him to finish one round of taunts, then I cast Shouting Cry for the debuff depending on mob.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I then cast Stand Firm, Allay on him and let him tank, during his tanking I only use Ruin, slam and our bleed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Our inq's break down to one casting reactive heals, the other debuffs and uses Combat heal when needed.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Basically we can take down stuff thats yellow to orange to the tank, when the rest of the group is 2 levels lower.  Works good for us, and in no way am I saying you should use this tactic.  We use Voice Comms too so it helps.</DIV>

[Dart]

<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE> <HR> AgentAce wrote:<BR> <DIV>Could you please explain how that benefits to switch tanks? I am not saying it doesnt, I am just curious.</DIV><BR> <HR> </BLOCKQUOTE><BR> <DIV><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>I think he means (ASSuming), have the guard/paly/sk tank on Inc, once things are settled, mobs debuffed group buffed. Then let the Zerker go zerker and not try to fight him for agro (2/3's through the fight). This alows the zerker to dish DPS without being handcuffed by the crazy agro from Zerker mode. (provided healers are cool with switching healing tanks). i would assume if all this was worked out prior then there are no issues everyone understands their respective roles.</FONT></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2></FONT></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2>Only problem with this is mutlplie targets to heal, but healers are used to swapping targets to heal, and if prepared I can see this working. </FONT></SPAN></SPAN></DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2></FONT></SPAN></SPAN> </DIV> <DIV><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><SPAN class=395040001-14122004> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana size=2><SPAN class=395040001-14122004></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><SPAN class=395040001-14122004>My thing is this, is the zerker ability meant to generate that much agro?, if so then tactics need to be established with how that will be handled if you have multiple 'tanks' in a group with a zerker as one of them. E.I.; will zerker MA and another tank 'Off tank'? or will the guardian be the back up tank and offer up intervene on the zerker? I would hate to think the Zerkers are handcuffed into an MA role because of the zerker mode. In all fairness Zeerkers and Guards should have near = agro generators, but hey that IMHO of course.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><SPAN class=395040001-14122004></SPAN></SPAN></FONT> </DIV> <DIV><FONT face=Verdana color=#66ff00 size=2><SPAN class=395040001-14122004><SPAN class=395040001-14122004>Edited cause I cant spell intervene)</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><p>Message Edited by Darton on <span class=date_text>12-13-2004</span> <span class=time_text>05:25 PM</span>

[Belce]

<DIV>The benefit would be to allow everyone to use their skills effectively for the group and also deal with harder encounters.  Having that 2nd hitpoint bar to finish a fight where maybe it is difficult to keep one bar up and then using the very good recovery rate after the fight to spread the load.  </DIV>

[Makkaio]

<DIV>Kiris, that tactic also works.  You and the zerker you group with have worked out a method you can live with.  That's good.  The tactic I came up with was to address the guardian/zerker argument over who should be the main tank.  As you've read some of the posts, some guardians feel they should be the one and only main tank.  The tag-team tactic was meant to address that issue.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone mentioned in their recent post about whether zerkers are meant to pull that much agro.  Honestly, only a dev can answer that question.  I'm just presenting a tactic based on the current game mechanics.  When discussing this with the zerker I planned this tactic with, the only reason we could come up with for the massive amount of agro a zerker pulls is for use at the best possible time in battle.  That would be to make a last stand in combat.  The devs give us the skills, it's up to us to come up with the best way to use them.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Someone also mentioned that healing multiple targets was difficult for a healer.  I agree.  With this tactic, we did communicate when the zerker was taking over as the main tank.  That seemed to work pretty well.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Belce, if the zerker and guardian work well together, you're comments are right on.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>