EQ2 Taunting Guide...requesting feedback

[Erronn]

<DIV>Hail fellow Guardians!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I've noticed some confusion in groups about our "taunting" abilities...many think in terms of EQ1's taunt, so I wrote up a draft guide trying to explain how it appears our "taunts" work in EQ2...the whole hate generation vs. snap-aggro thing. It's quite long, but I'd appreciate it if you guys would read through it and see if it makes sense...does it coincide with what you've noticed ingame, etc. I haven't done any specific tests to confirm this stuff...merely just in-game experiences in normal groups. I would like to see tests done to confirm this though...</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It's on my guardian boards in this thread</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV><A href="http://p196.ezboard.com/feq2guardians46530frm9.showMessage?topicID=4.topic" target=_blank>http://p196.ezboard.com/feq2guardians46530frm9.showMessage?topicID=4.topic</A></DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks in advance for your time and input!</DIV>

[Thi]

Seems to make sense from an old EQ1 vet's perspective. Any word on whether 'stuns' generate huge aggro like in EQ1? For example, shield bash. Does anyone seem to know if it generates a lot of hate? I'm assuming Mangle would also, since it's a debuff. But, just theories, no hard proof.

[Erronn]

<DIV>Thanks for the feedback, Thill. And great questions...I also have a bunch I'd like to get answered too. I'm working on a list of tests that I will be performing now and then to try to get some actual, somewhat scientific data. Things like...have another tank proximity-pull a monster but not attack, then have me use a "taunt" of some kind to see how many it takes to get aggro. Will be nice to get a "feel" for how much hate our abilities actually produce. This will be quite a task to compile, due to the many different "upgrades" that are available for our combat arts (app1, app2, etc. etc.)!</DIV>

[Kirianna1]

<DIV>Nice writeup. The green was a bit hard on the eyes though. <img src="/smilies/3b63d1616c5dfcf29f8a7a031aaa7cad.gif" border="0" alt="SMILEY" /></DIV>

[Obl]

I notice you mentioning your site quite a lot on this forum. Not liking the advertisements. If you have something to share, just share it here. Not to mention your color scheme is hard on the eyes, for me and at least my friends, and I refuse to try reading a novel that's black text on a dark brown background.You want to know the difference between taunt in EQ1 and EQ2? It's simple, and one sentence will suffice:The Taunt skill in EQ1 gave a chance to move the taunter 1 point higher than anyone else on a mob's hate list, thereby giving him aggro while the Taunt skills in EQ2 simply add a certain number of points of free hate, much like the torrent spells added to Shadow Knights late in EQ1.And there's your difference. Buffs still add hate. Heals add hate. Dots add hate. Debuffs add hate. Attacking adds hate. Just like in EQ1. The amount of hate has always been subject to the effects of the spell/skill itself and those numbers are not exposed to us anyway. So for the most part if we use the same skills in a fight the same number of times, even if in a different order we generate the same hate, given we're the same level with the same gear. The only variable, then, is weapon DPS which, again, the hate numbers for hit/ratio aren't exposed to us.Anything else is personal strategy, which will work different for different people in different groups as 1: it's all situational and 2: people have different timing and won't always hit skills as fast or as slow as you do.My tip for taunters out there? Just learn what works best for each group you're in and plan on being flexible. Don't freak out if the group doesn't warp to fit your style of taunt, be ready to change your skill orders and pull techniques to match the style of the group. Which means pre-defined strats for taunting aren't really that great unless you're always, without question, in the same exact group... most of us don't have that luxury.

[CherobylJ]

<DIV>Actually technically taunt didnt *exactly* work that way in EQ1...look in the library of thesteelwarrior.org with Brutul's taunt thread...it was considerably more complex than that.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>As far as EQ2 it appears 95 pct of meaningful agro is generated at the initial hit (meaning either you pull the mob group or you buff/heal on the pull).  It is notoriously difficult to get up the list, perhaps for the reasons you state (e.g. incremental agro received for each activity during an encounter)...the rare exception to this being the blood fury skill of bers which chain spams "berserk procs" each of which adds an agro event rouughly every couple seconds.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Decent writeup, rather than mechanics (which are widely unknown at this time) it is a good start at explaining principles tyo folks who may not have played EQ before.  I also dont see an issue with him posting his link from another location as this (and other SOE boards) lack any type of library function.</DIV>

[Thi]

<blockquote><hr>Oblix wrote:I notice you mentioning your site quite a lot on this forum. Not liking the advertisements. If you have something to share, just share it here. Not to mention your color scheme is hard on the eyes, for me and at least my friends, and I refuse to try reading a novel that's black text on a dark brown background.<hr></blockquote>Sounds like you're catching unnecessary flak over something trivial. Some people just like to gripe.No, we don't know the hard numbers, stats, etc. for taunt and our Arts. That's what we're hoping to discover. 'Attacking, Arts, etc. all add hate'. Yeah, we know that. How much though? Any EQ1 player knows that stun was a huge aggro inducer. Well, the Shield Bash line has a stun effect, not sure if Concussion does yet or not. So, going off of EQ1 theory, Shield Bash would be useful for tanks to generate, and keep aggro. But, I do not know if 'EQ1 theory' fits in EQ2. Who knows, stun may not generate any more aggro than a regular attack. That's the question we're trying to answer.Also, debuffs generated aggro. Think of Slow, Malo, Cripple, etc (EQ1 again). I'm ASSUMING Mangle (debuff) does also, again going from EQ1. I'm not saying this is EQ1. I know it's not, I realize that. But, until we prove otherwise, we simply don't know.We're only trying to find the best ways to build aggro and keep it. If Shield Bash and Mangle generate a lot more aggro than Kick or Wild Swing, I know which skills I'LL be using.I'd also be very curious to see if weapon speed=more aggro than a slower, harder hitting weapon. It was widely believed in EQ1, that dual wielding gave the best aggro results. They're low delay weapons and you're constantly swinging. Also, many people argued that it didn't matter whether you HIT or not, just the fact that you're swinging non-stop. Personally, I don't think speed should affect aggro, just the total overall DPS. If speed DOES=greater aggro, then using a weapon with a shield could be disasterous at the higher levels. It's kind of nice being a tank type in EQ2 and be able to wield a shield effectively. Gives us a lot more options than just dual wield, or using a two-hander.

[Erronn]

<DIV>Thanks, Guys, for your feedback. I appreciate it.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding the advertising of my site....I'm sorry if it offends some folks - can't please everybody. My only retort is that I'm not selling anything. I'm merely spreading the word about a hopefully helpful-to-many-folks message board. There appears to be a demand for it. I've had alot of feedback from people who have learned something from it. The only reason I'm putting the time into it is because I haven't found another board yet that has done it. If anyone is aware of one, by all means, please advertise it...I'd like to see it!</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding the color scheme, font size/style/color, etc. - again, can't please everybody. What is pleasing to some is repulsive to others...I'm not sure which color schemes are easiest on the eyes to most folks...I'll keep searching.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding the "brief" comparison of EQ1 taunting to EQ2 taunting - I agree completely. Your sentence very accurately describes the difference. I guess my write-up is directed more at the newbies to the whole "taunting" and "aggro" issue. Perhaps I should eliminate the comparisons to EQ1, and just describe the EQ2 information. But to me, the difference is huge! I am trying to emphasize the need for tanks to really pile on the hate...continuously. You can't just "taunt" the mob off if you lose aggro anymore.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding "just learn what works best for each group you're in and plan on being flexible." I also agree...there won't be a single set order to use our abilities...we'll have to adapt to each group. This requires trial and error, and experience. My goal is to maybe help a new guardian learn some common techniques to apply in their groups, without floundering for so long. I've always been the type that likes to learn as much as I can from those ahead of me, and then apply that knowledge in the field to fine-tune my own techniques...maybe that's just me though. And for a new guardian to learn from others, it has to be passed along somehow....</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding "it appears 95 pct of meaningful agro is generated at the initial hit". Yes, I agree that initial aggro means alot in EQ2. If a scout arrow or aggro-pulls a mob to me (due to his tracking skills), without any other hate producing, I can typically get aggro with my own arrow and an "anger". But with any more initial hate than that from the scout, it's gonna take awhile for me to add enough hate to pass him up, especially if he continues adding the hate.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding "We're only trying to find the best ways to build aggro and keep it." Yes, that's my desire also. If we all share our experiences, we can learn from each other. Without actual numbers, we may end up just classifying each art's hate as "low - medium - high", but that would seem to help us define our strategies.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Regarding "Personally, I don't think speed should affect aggro, just the total overall DPS." Again, I agree. And like you say, we don't have the evidence to determine how it works, yet.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Thanks again for the feedback. At least this has started a discussion on taunting...that's what I'd hoped for.</DIV>