Pop quiz for those who say Guardians are balanced

[gggun]

<DIV>Pop quiz: What do you call a Berserker who doesn't use Bloodlust?? Let's see... he deals as much damage as a Guardian, holds agro as good as a Guardian, wears the same armor as a Guardian, has same HP as a Guardian and has equal damage mitigation as a Guardian. A Berserker who doesn't Bloodlust IS FOR ALL PURPOSES A GUARDIAN.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Ok, now WHAT DO YOU CALL A BERSERKER WHO USES BLOODLUST?? Let's see, he deals more damage than a Guardian, holds agro better than a Guardian, wears the same armor as a Guardian, has same HP as a Guardian and has equal damage mitigation as a Guardian. A Berserker who uses Bloodlust is BETTER THAN A GUARDIAN, period, end of story.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>If someone posts a reply saying "well we tank good enough" then I swear I'm gonna go more berserk than a Bloodlusted Berserker because THAT ISN'T THE ISSUE. The issue is that BERSERKERS > GUARDIANS. There is NO REASON to play a Guardian AT ALL right now because Berserkers are UBER GUARDIANS.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I don't want to be the "only tank class", I don't want to wear special armor, I just want my class to NOT BE GIMPED AND 100% ECLIPSED by another one!!!</DIV>

[Ainm]

Here's another to add to your quiz: How much damage to the party does a Berserker mitigate?<p>Message Edited by Ainmer on <span class=date_text>12-06-2004</span> <span class=time_text>03:10 PM</span>

[EQJun]

<DIV>Actually, when a berserker goes berserk the damage they take increases to compensate for the damage they give.  This ability is not the end all of balance.  It comes with a fair penalty.  Now, if you want to talk about aggro balance, that is a different issue and I fully support increasing the aggro of Guardian abilities. </DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>It seems that some think that the only skill the 2 types get is bloodlust and its zerker only too. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Should also include, such things as what class of these 2 can debuff the mob better, which of these classes can tell the caster mob to shut up?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Getting and keeping agro is a group job, its not the guardian's job or any other specific class.  Yes, a zerker can grab agro from a guardian, a poorly played zerker can do that, to be specifically correct.   Who is MT in a group is the group's decision and if someone else is getting that agro, then you need to put them straight.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>There are valid reasons within the game for certain classes to be able to generate agro quickly, while  some classes are better at keeping agro long term.  A very obvious example would be a fighter and a mage, the fighter can keep agro for the duration of a fight better than a mage can, yet the mage can generate more agro faster than the fighter can.   Grouping is not a different version of playing whack a mole with your hot bar buttons.  Grouping is about team work, getting things done together.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Yes, remove the class skill sets and a guardian and zerker are very similiar, the difference is that the guardian's defense goes up with their skills and zerker's defense goes down with theirs.  When a group decides who is to be MT, I am sure they are aware of that.  It is up to each member of that group to play the role assigned.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Getting and keeping agro as MT can be done with any player class in your group.  There are also other roles within a group that a tank can do besides be a MT that include such things as pulling, being off tank, being second MA in case the primary falls.  All of these are important roles with different skills to be successful.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>With all that I have read on this subject of guardian vs zerker agro management, the only thing that is clear is poor team skills and no evidence that there is a fundemental problem with guardian skills.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Hopefully those that have indicated a problem keeping agro with a zerker in their group will take a moment to reflect on what being a part of a group means and perhaps see what is needed to correct this.  As others have posted, I don't have a problem keeping agro with a zerker in my group, when I am the MT. </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>How do I deal with people getting agro in my group when I am MT?  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>I initially talk to them in tells, asking them what they are doing and ask them to try something different to see how it works, not just the success of the encounter, but mana situation afterwards as well.  If we have a good fight next and they cooperated or did better, I tell them, thanks for helping me keep agro, look at the healer's mana, much better I think overall, lets keep it up.   </DIV>

[drewgimpy]

<DIV>Why don't we come up with some ideas that will make Guardian better and more powerful instead of just ideas to weaken Zerks.  If we really want some changes then lets list ways the developers can help us.  I am sure they don't want to nerf another class because then that class will want someone else nerfed.  It just creates a bad cycle were everyone gets weakened.  If we get changes that increase our defense/agro abilities and Zerks keep all thiers wouldn't that be better?</DIV>

[Belce]

<DIV>I think the agro situation between different classes is intended.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What class can best be the focus of agro for the entire fight in a challenging situation?  Guardian</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>It costs the group less in this situation than another tank class would, therefore it is more challenging to always maintain that.   The best class for maintaining agro for the group is not going to get anything that will allow them to do so regardless of another player's actions.   People in the group need to work together to insure agro is where they want it. </DIV>

[Eal]

<DIV>Here's another pop quiz for you?</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>What do you call a Guardian that doesnt use Battle Cry during the fight? </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>Poor Guardian<Beserker+Bloodlust</DIV>

[Hastur Bloodwa]

See, the way I see it is that Guardians are meant to be able to protect themselves and their party members, look up the word Guardian in any dictionary and you will see that it means, essence, to be a protector. Ok, so what is the best way for a warrior class to protect himself? Have a good defense and armour, and the best way to protect his friends is to get and keep agro.Swap to Berserker, look that up. A guy that goes berserk has no care for himself or anyone around him, he wants to give out as much damage as he can and sod the consequences ( this is traditionally, obviously wouldn't work per se in game). A berserker is NOT a defensive player.For the line to be so fine between the 2 classes leads me to believe that the devs dont actually know what the 2 terms mean. Yes I have heard of poetic license, thngs are going to be changed to fit into a game, but if you are going to name 2 classes so blatantly then each should be better at the thngs they are traditionally known for. A guardian should be better at taking and keeping agro and from preventing himself and his friends from taking damage, and a berserker should be able to give out enormous amounts of damage, with damage mitigation emulating the numbing effects of being berserk. The fact that the Berserker can do all this himself, better than the Guardian, is proof in itself that there is something wrong, and really shouldnt need explaining to the simpletons that cannot grasp the concept that there is a problem.Now, I may not have put this across in quite the structured and formulative manner that I would have like d to , it is very late, and I am extremely tired, but I would hope that the essence of my point is obvious, even to those that just think that we are a bunch of whiners. We are not. Yes, played well a guardian can certainly hold his own, but I dont want to have to struggle to perform the basic skills of my class when another, different class, can do it instead of me with ease.

[Belce]

<DIV>"Yes, played well a guardian can certainly hold his own, but I dont want to have to struggle to perform the basic skills of my class when another, different class, can do it instead of me with ease."</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV>The challenge of holding agro within a group for a guardian is what we are all about.  When we hold agro, it is actually easier for our healers to do their job, maybe let them do something else.  The only reason why a zerker has an easy path to agro is they create a difficult path for keeping them alive.   Going zerk drops their defense, alot of guardian buffs improve ours and we can debuff the mob's attack as well.   Its the best path for the group, its intentionally not the easiest to have.  The group has to want to put us there.  </DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <DIV> </DIV>